The Bookshop Podcast
The Bookshop Podcast
From Paralegal to Rom-Com Author: Danica Nava's Journey of Native American Representation in Literature
What drives a paralegal to switch gears and pen a rom-com novel? Discover the inspiring journey of Danica Nava, an enrolled citizen of the Chickasaw Nation, as she shares her transition from the corporate world to the literary scene. We delve into her academic achievements, the barriers she overcame as a first-generation college graduate, and the significant impact of her Indigenous Native American identity on her career and personal life. This compelling conversation sheds light on her perseverance, the critical role of mentorship in her journey, and the real-life experiences that influenced her debut novel, The Truth According to Ember.
In this episode, Danica opens up about the moment she decided to pursue her passion for writing despite a demanding schedule. She provides an inside look at her creative process, the importance of representation in literature, and the inspiration behind her characters, Ember and Danuwoa. The discussion navigates through the complexities of Indigenous identity, generational trauma, and societal pressures, all while maintaining a humorous and thought-provoking narrative. Tune in to hear about Danica's upcoming projects and how she continues to blend comedy with poignant storytelling in her exploration of Indigenous themes in contemporary romance.
The Truth According to Ember, Danica Nava
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a bibliophile. Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast. Each week, I present interviews with authors, independent bookshop owners and booksellers from around the globe and publishing professionals. When I started this podcast in 2020, my intention was to support indie bookshops and authors and to produce a quality podcast where listeners gain insight to authors' lives and their writing style and chat with booksellers about what they're reading. I chose a format that is enjoyable for me, my guests and my listeners a show without interruptions from advertisers cutting into conversations With the millions of podcasts out there. Thank you for choosing to listen to the Bookshop Podcast. To financially support this show, please go to thebookshoppodcastcom, click on Support the Show and you can donate through. Buy me a coffee To help the show reach more people. Please share episodes with friends and family and on social media, and remember to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. You're listening to episode 271.
Speaker 1:Danica Narva is an enrolled citizen of the Chickasaw Nation and works as an executive assistant in the tech industry. She has her MBA from USC Marshall School of Business and currently lives in Southern California with her husband and daughter. The Truth According to Ember is her debut novel. Here's a short synopsis of the story. Ember Lee Cardinal has not always been a liar Well, not for anything that counted at least. But her job search is not going well, and when her resume is rejected for the 37th time, she takes matters into her own hands. She gets creative, listing her qualifications and answers the ethnicity question on applications with a lie, a half-lie. Technically, no one wanted Native American Ember, but White Ember has just landed her dream accounting job on Park Avenue, oklahoma. That is Hi, danica, and welcome to the show. It's lovely to have you here.
Speaker 2:Hi, mandy, thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1:For our listeners. Danica and I met when I was working at Bart's Books. I remember you came into the bookshop and you were looking for kind of old-time romance paperbacks, if I remember correctly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, specifically looking for Alicia Thompson's With Love from Cold World.
Speaker 1:You helped me find it and I remember we got talking and you said you had a new book coming out. And here we are. So let's begin by learning about you and what led you to study business administration and then write the Truth According to Ember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I work in corporate America. I have for years. Well, I started as like an office admin while I was getting my paralegal certificate. Then I became a paralegal and then I was mentored by my professor at Oxnard Community College. He was a district attorney and he said you know, you should really go to law school. You should finish your undergrad, go to law school so you have a 4.0. He's like you're very bright. He's like why didn't you consider that? And I just had never.
Speaker 2:I wasn't raised, taught that I could do those things, and even in school they don't teach you how to apply for college. I didn't have consistent internet access, so it wasn't like I was at home and I could just apply to colleges. And then it costs money and no one told you that you could get fee waivers. So if you don't know those things and you are, and I'm a first generation college graduate, so I'm the first person in my family to go to college and graduate so if you're not raised in that, then you don't know and that's the biggest barrier to entry. So just having somebody believe in me and telling me I could do that inspired me. I mean, I remember like tearing up that, like this man, who was a district attorney of Santa Barbara, told me I was bright and I was one of the brightest students he ever had. So he wrote me this wonderful letter of recommendation. So I finished all my general education credits at three different community colleges in the area and then I transferred to California Lutheran University.
Speaker 2:But again it wasn't like I was applying different places and trying to see where I could go. It was how can I go to school for the cheapest while keeping my job as a paralegal? And then what had more evening classes? And so there was a professional, a business professionals program, and I was actually I was considered too young for it. So I had to write a letter and I had to get a letter from my employer and then also another letter from my professor saying I could do as I've been doing it. So then they made the exception and I was accepted at 22 in the professionals program and it's accelerated. And then I took even more credits.
Speaker 2:So I was just working in school just because I wanted to catch up, because I had been out of high school for a while and I felt behind like a late bloomer. So I finished my undergrad and I was burnt out. Yeah, I'm not surprised I did so much so fast because I was like I have to graduate magna cum laude, I need this, I'm going to apply to Pepper, need this, I'm going to apply to Pepperdine. I'm going to go to these law schools and I still have the LSAT training books and I couldn't get any more hours as a paralegal. So then I remember just movies and books that had executive assistant and so I Googled like what's an executive assistant? What do they do? And the skills as a paralegal really translated well.
Speaker 2:And so I started applying for those positions and once I graduated with my degree, the only reason I was able to afford to go to college and go and finish was because the Chickasaw Nation helped me pay for college with grants, and so it was very important to me, as I was applying to these jobs, that these employers knew that I was a Chickasaw woman doing this. But then I was getting no interviews. So then I was starting to get desperate because it's very expensive in Southern California and so I didn't change anything on my resume. I just started checking Caucasian only on the ethnicity question on these online applications, and as I was doing that, I started getting a bunch of interviews and then I was hired and worked for this billionaire who owned all these different companies, and I was looking specifically for his holding company that hired me. I started learning a lot for that eagle eye view of businesses. It was very interesting.
Speaker 2:And then my husband he was my fiance at the time he got a job in Chicago, so he moved there and I had to start it all over again. I was trying to get an executive assistant job and I was like, okay, I am American, indian, alaska, native. That's the box you check if you're Native American. Nothing. So same resume. I changed nothing.
Speaker 2:I was checking Caucasian boom, like getting interviews for huge corporations that you've heard of in the news, everything billion dollar, fortune 500 companies. I was like what the heck like it's? It just seems fishy. But you know, is it a coincidence? I don't know, is it causation correlation editor? But it was happening a lot to me and so, um, I always had that in the back of my head. And even when I moved back to los angeles from chicago, same thing. Um, but it was my ceo in chicago. He kept bringing it up to me. He was just like, have you considered getting an MBA? Because I would be in meetings with him, taking minutes and participating, and I have a communications degree and so he really liked the way I wrote his voice and the corporate voice.
Speaker 2:And then I was also supporting the chief strategy officer, so I was learning about business strategy too, and I was like a sponge, because it's like I'm here, I want to learn, I want to be better, and I was really working these jobs as if I was still a student and I had to get an A plus. So I was just constantly working overtime and the CEO he's just like you need to get an MBA. And that was like my first year for him. And I was like my first year for him and I was like no, no, no, no, if I'm going to get graduate school, it'd be law school. That was my dream. Or I'd get an MFA in screenwriting because I really love writing. And he was just like no, no, no, get an MBA. So then the pandemic happened and he said now's the time. I'm going to have the company pay for it. If you get your MBA, start applying.
Speaker 2:So we had this vice president of data analytics name was emil. I loved him. I always loved talking to him, and he mentioned that his son went to harvard and he went to northwestern but he also had a master's in like analytics. Uh, so I just had my application materials and the questions and the schools I was targeting, and he looked at my resume. He helped, was like this is what they're looking for.
Speaker 2:And so he just like helped me me refine specific points that they're looking for in candidates. And he was like why are you applying to these schools? Why wouldn't you be applying for Booth? He's like you could get into Chicago Booth. And I was like I can't get into Booth, I'm not smart enough. That's what people who are smarter than me do. And he's just like damn it, I'm looking at your transcript.
Speaker 2:He's like this, you're the, you know, and I guess that's just what we're taught to believe or at least me as a woman, as a native woman, that I am not on par with other people. Like that's like I just have this small life and I'm not good enough. He just really mentored me and so I said I was targeting USC because they have the online program and you have a residency portion and the classes are on the evening and that was my dream school and they had a Forte fellowship scholarship, whereas the other online schools didn't. I got into UC Davis first and they gave me a nothing scholarship and I was just like no. They came back to me with a larger one later, but I got into USC very quickly, gave me the scholarship and it just felt like they really aligned with what I was going for. I wanted to pivot from the executive assistant to chief of staff role. I really like having the bird's eye view in a business and just learning all the components instead of being siloed into one area.
Speaker 1:So after all of this, do you still work for the same company?
Speaker 2:No. So that CEO was let go. And then the new CEO I was pregnant, they couldn't get rid of me, kept me on but said they weren't going to pay for my degree and I'd already paid the deposit. And so that was heartbreaking because it was like this is a very expensive school. It's a top 20 business school. But not only that the online program was number one in the country for several years. It fluctuates between the one and two position, so that was heartbreaking for me. And then I found out I was pregnant and my husband was like, well, what if we put it off? And I said, no, I worked so hard, like I worked for months to get in these programs, like I'm doing it and I did. It was wild, it was a wild ride to do that with a new baby working full time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I bet it was hard, yeah, and how long after this did you start writing your book?
Speaker 2:Well, I started Truth According to Amber in 2020. But I just couldn't get it right. I was entering the wrong spot. It was too late and I tried writing as a screenplay for a feature and then also for a miniseries, because I love the side characters. But it just wasn't right. And it wasn't until my baby was four months old it was May 1st. I had to work in the office.
Speaker 2:I had a different job at this point in Northern California and I was forced to go into the office every day. So I came home to hold my baby, eat dinner, hand her back to my husband, sit in class for two hours and then I would do homework. And so it was 8 PM after I finished class. I was ahead on my homework and so I was like you know, I'm going to wash my hair. I haven't done that in a while. So I washed my hair and I came out and I just like had this overwhelming feeling that if I didn't do something, my life would never change.
Speaker 2:My dream is to be a writer. I love telling stories and I have had this idea. I said you know, I'm Native American. I've never seen a Native American in a rom-com before this idea. I said I'm Native American. I've never seen a Native American in a rom-com before and I just know that Ember and Donna Weather, the accountant and the IT guy and I just said I know the story is special and I know a publisher would want it. And so the last thing I wanted to do was go sit back in that chair, but because usually I would maybe watch an episode of TV crash and do it all over again the next day. But I went back to that chair, opened my laptop and the first chapter just flew out of me 2,500 words.
Speaker 2:Well, the muse waits for no one. Yeah, the muse is elusive. The muse they'll help you start a book or write certain scenes, but it will not help you finish a book. You really have to be dedicated and have that discipline to finish a book. But just the magic was there and the voice Finally. It was because I asked how did Ember get the job? And it was when I asked myself that I put so much of myself in there. Like, oh my gosh, she's in Oklahoma, she's filling out these applications, she wants these jobs and that box. What if she clicked Caucasian and she got the job and she wasn't quite qualified for it? What would that look like, and it just was the premise for a rom-com?
Speaker 1:Well, you've given us your backstory and a bit of a synopsis of the book the Truth According to Ember and an outline of Ember and Donoah's personalities, but what was it that actually drew them together?
Speaker 2:You know I love that Donoah is the nice guy. He's a cinnamon roll and I feel like in romance we see a lot of like the alpha guy which could be really hot and great, but I really wanted the nice guy to be the one to be a foil for her, because she's insecure and she's lying and he sees through that and they're both really funny. They just get each other with their wit and so I think Donawe's steadiness and his kindness and compassion and patience really help Ember in her anxious moments of wanting to be more than she is.
Speaker 1:And in the story Ember explains quote Dad was white and my mom was a native mix of Chickasaw and Choctaw. That was just how it was. Now we were all a mix of stuff. End quote. Do you feel this is a common thought, a common feeling among Indigenous people?
Speaker 2:I would never presume to speak on behalf of every Indigenous person, because we have similarities but we all have different experiences.
Speaker 2:What I was really getting out with Amber and her story, and even for me, is that I'm a mix of settler ancestry.
Speaker 2:Ember and her story, and even for me is that, you know, I'm a mix of settler ancestry, mexican ancestry, mexican indigenous ancestry, and then North American Chickasaw ancestry, and in Oklahoma, specifically because of the removal of the five tribes and then the tribes that were already Plains tribes living in Oklahoma, there's a lot of indigenous culture, and then you have the settlers and the European immigrants and everything, and so everybody that I know tends to be one or more native tribe within Oklahoma and with settler ancestry which is more like the French, canadian, scottish, irish. It was very common, especially for the Chickasaw, cherokee, choctaw tribes that was how the Cherokee princess myth manifested itself was these Scottish traders would come and they would marry indigenous women and they would write back because they had the clan structure, and so they would say oh, I married the chief's daughter, I married this native princess, and then the myth became bigger than that. But America is this melting pot of different cultures and so for Ember, she very much is a mix, but she is Chickasaw, like I am Chickasaw.
Speaker 1:And do you feel that, because of the way the Indigenous people were treated, that there is a certain amount of inherited suffering in your generation?
Speaker 2:I do believe that we do feel that we have generational trauma that we inherit, and then not only that, when poverty is involved and lack of education, and then you have abuse and addiction, like in my family, the generational cursesses. They just get passed on because there's no tools to you know, escape that. And then also we have this myth that America sells us this capitalist dream or you have to be more than you are you, you are your job title, you need the nice car, the house, the salary, you need the clothes, the new handbag, etc. And so it's an. It's a never ending cycle of I have to be better, I have to be better. It was like not until I turned 20.
Speaker 2:And I really was exploring my heritage, like, oh, I grew up always knowing I was Chickasaw but and I would go to Oklahoma to visit my grandpa and family out there.
Speaker 2:But I grew up in California, which is very much removed from Oklahoma, and my mom, she put me in.
Speaker 2:We had this program called Indian education, what it was called here, in the schools, from elementary to high school, and so I got to learn about tribes all over, like you know, all the federally recognized tribes, and in the class were other Native American students and so that was really awesome. They had that community and I got to learn. But on the offhand I would get told you're not Native American, I've never heard of Chickasaw, because where we are, you know Chumash, these are Chumash lands and so people have heard of Chumash or in the movies, comanche, apache those are the more popular ones. So because they'd never heard of Chickasaw, it was all of a sudden. You're not Native American. And I remember in high school we're learning about the five civilized tribes. I'm using quotes here. We don't refer to ourselves as five civilized tribes. If you have a civilization at all, especially our Native, know our new civilizations, like, of course, we're civilized and much cleaner than the European colonizers who came.
Speaker 1:Just getting back to the classes you were talking about, were you taught those classes by indigenous people In?
Speaker 2:the Indian education program. Yes, but like US history and things you know, I just had normal teachers and we were learning and it's like that's when I finally saw Chickasaw in a textbook and I said I'm Chickasaw and my teacher just looked at me and was like how much Indian blood are you? And I was confronted with that my whole life of you know I need to quantify the blood percentage in order for someone to acknowledge me, even though they don't understand what that means or what tribal citizenship and enrollment mean in a community.
Speaker 1:And that takes us right back to what you were talking about earlier. Which box do you check regarding your ethnicity? And when you did check Chickasaw, you didn't get the job. You didn't even get an interview. It just seems so wrong the job.
Speaker 2:You didn't even get an interview. It just seems so wrong it is. I don't mention any blood. I am Chickasaw and they don't see me differently within my tribe when I go back there. I brought my husband there and I brought my daughter last year. She's now two and a half, but she was 15, 16 months when I took her. The sense of community and love that you go there and it's not somebody is more than it's we are all a part of. And like sitting in the amphitheater listening to our governor speak and my daughter she just like wanted to run around and there's this woman who was sitting by herself. She was older and she just was like come here, baby. And she just put her on her lap and Izzy was so content just sitting there and it was just this. And she just put her on her lap and Izzy was so content just sitting there and it was just this, this the community right Of just love.
Speaker 1:I think the word community says it all. We just feel comfortable when we are around people who understand us and people who we understand. I feel that when I go back to Australia, and even when I go to the UK or Ireland, I do feel that sense of sameness. While I was reading your novel, it encouraged me to learn more about the Chickasaw Nation and I found touches of Ember's story, from the programs and services available to Native Americans to the beauty of Oklahoma and the Muscogeean language, fascinating. Were you raised learning about your ancestors' history, and do you instill this within your daughter's life?
Speaker 2:She's two and a half but she does love Oklahoma. So I had to go on tour and I originally wanted to bring her with me but the stops there was just too much and it would have been a lot for a two-year-old. So she got to the tail end in los angeles, meet me there. But she will say baby, go oklahoma, baby go oklahoma.
Speaker 2:Now because she loved going to oklahoma last october and we had so much fun and we have like photos and videos and she's got her oklahoma dress and the oklahoma shirt and she she loves it because I did enroll her and so she got her welcome package and now they have flashcards to start learning the language and they have immersion programs now. But it's just, we're so better connected now, especially with the internet. I didn't have access to that growing up and I would hear stories of my great grandma and how she lived in a dugout in Oklahoma and the hardships there and how my family would move between Oklahoma and California because there were no jobs in Oklahoma. So they would come out to California make some money, save some money, go back and keep building their house out there, and that's the story of a lot of people.
Speaker 1:All wonderful stories to pass on to your daughter, danica. I'd love to hear your publishing story, from finishing the manuscript for the Truth According to Amber, to finding your agent and landing a publishing deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, as I mentioned, I started writing it May 1st 2022, this iteration of it and I finished and I revised it twice and got it query ready in six months. So it was like a fever dream of just. I had to get it out. My goal was to start querying agents in November of 2022 for Native American Heritage Month, because I knew that agents would be a little bit more aware of Indigenous stories. And I was right, and so I had quite a few agents offer and I picked mine, Laura Bradford. We just really aligned with the vision of the story and how we saw it. We did one pass together, like just cleaning things up, and then she submitted it and it took a couple months, but then it went to auction. We had five houses interested.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, danica, that is fabulous, you know.
Speaker 1:It just made me think about something.
Speaker 1:Over the past four years, I think, I've interviewed about I don't know 170 independent bookshop owners and booksellers, and probably about the same number of authors, and the one thing that we always come back to is how important it is for anyone who walks into a library or a bookshop to see themselves on the bookshelves in that store or in that library, to know that they can read about themselves and by that I mean, you know, if they're in the LGBTQ plus community, any ethnicity, or if anyone has a disability of any kind.
Speaker 1:To be able to see yourself reflected is so important, and also for the books to have been written by someone like you, and you've definitely done this. In fact, I would say you've opened a door for Indigenous rom-coms. It's exciting and I think because we had so many more people reading during the pandemic. Readers wanted diverse books written by diverse authors and whereas it used to be all white people straight white people working in publishing companies, that has gradually changed now, so we have much more diversity within the publishing community, and that definitely needed to happen. I think in many ways, the pandemic helped us all well, it made us all slow down and to look around and see what was happening within the publishing industry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there were the paper shortages, but the pandemic and book talk, with invigorating the market, with new readers, of people who had time now to do things, and talking about books and romance and romance is a billion dollar industry that's growing and it was said that the only Native American representation were the bodice rippers of the 90s and early 2000s.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about Ember. Are you at all like her in that you are cautious about accepting help from others?
Speaker 2:I do believe. So I'm not a liar. That is a pet peeve of mine. I'm like a human lie detector. I'm almost honest to a fault, because integrity is so important to me. It's a core, it's a pillar of my character, but it made for an interesting character to write.
Speaker 2:I'm the oldest daughter in my family, first generation college student, and I grew up without a lot of opportunity in really rough conditions and because of that it has made me a harder person. Harder on myself. I need to excel. I need to achieve X, y and Z. Harder person harder on myself I need to excel. I need to achieve X, y and Z.
Speaker 2:And now that I have my own daughter, it's like I never want her to be without utilities. Growing up with utilities, getting shut off and not having any food in the pantry, in the fridge was difficult for me and it scares me. Now I have this child of mine and she needs to have. She needs to have more than I did and more love, more acceptance and also a roof over her head and security. And so my husband and I we've saved for five years to try to get a house and thankfully this book deal was additional income and got us approved for a home loan. Without it we still wouldn't have qualified income and got us approved for a home loan. Without it we still wouldn't have qualified. And so I'm so blessed that I could give my daughter the stability that she will always have a home.
Speaker 2:And I'm getting emotional because I'm a fighter like Ember and I did put so much. It's a fictional story. I am not Ember, but I put so much of myself layered throughout there. Subconsciously I didn't even realize I was doing it, and I do believe that themes and symbolism. Readers can pick up on that after a book is finished. But as I'm writing it, I'm just trying to get these characters to kiss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's cute. Yeah, no, I totally understand.
Speaker 2:I'm like why is she not answering this phone call? Oh, oh, it's her brother's the jail. Oh, you know it's those things, because I grew up, you know, unfortunately, with my father going to jail quite a bit and watching him get arrested, and that is a norm for me. And many people, so many people, are incarcerated. That is a problem in this country, especially the for-profit prisons. So it just made sense and it wasn't like I was writing this book on a soapbox of like I'm going to talk about these things in this way and use a romantic comedy to do it. It was well, the character work. Why is this girl in this position? How come she didn't have X, y and Z? Why was she living with Randy? What happened with her family? And it's just what I know. It's how a lot of my friends were raised.
Speaker 2:I think romance is. It's an aspirational genre. That's why rom coms you see a lot of them where the characters are just wealthy and a billionaire comes and, oh no, her cupcake business is failing. But she inherited this house from her family member and she's broke. But she can afford to renovate the house and not work Like I grew up, where if you're broke, you've got three jobs and you have roommates who you don't love. You know they're weird, but you need a roof over your head and rent's expensive and even food groceries are so expensive. So I think that point of view is so necessary and I just know it's connecting readers. I get messages every day from readers, indigenous and non-Indigenous, who see themselves reflected in Ember.
Speaker 1:What do you enjoy most about writing and what do you hope readers will take away after reading the Truth According to Ember?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just love. I love comedy. I consider myself a comedy writer first and foremost, so anytime I can get some jokes in there physical humor, and like a really funny set piece like a bowling alley and have shenanigans happen, like that to me is, yes, I wrote this for Indigenous readers, but I wrote it in a way that's accessible for all, and so while there are jokes that only people in Indian country will appreciate, there are even more jokes that anybody, because it's universally funny. So I hope people come to it just for wanting to enjoy a great story and then I hope they leave with a sense of community and belonging, what that means. How can you help the community?
Speaker 1:See everything gets back to community. I love it. Okay, what are you currently reading?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm on deadline so I'm trying not to read too much, but I did get asked to blurb Nina Kumar's second book, flirting with Disaster. I'm so excited for that. I loved her debut.
Speaker 1:Say You'll Be Mine, it's lovely to know you have another book on the way. Was book two part of your publishing deal?
Speaker 2:Yes, it was a two book deal, so the second book is coming next summer in July, back in Oklahoma, another Indigenous romcom Danica, thank you so much for being a guest on the show and for writing the Truth According to Ember.
Speaker 1:It's a fun read that gives the reader something to think about too. Well done.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much, Mindy. I hope you have a great day.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to my conversation with Danica Narva about her new novel, the Truth According to Ember. To help the show reach more people, please share episodes with friends and family and on social media, and remember to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. To find out more about the Bookshop Podcast, go to thebookshoppodcastcom and make sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to the show. You can also follow me at Mandy Jackson Beverly on X, instagram and Facebook and on YouTube at the Bookshop Podcast. If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to suggest we have on the podcast, I'd love to hear from you via the contact form at thebookshoppodcastcom. The Bookshop Podcast is written and produced by me, mandy Jackson-Beverly, theme music provided by Brian Beverly, executive assistant to Mandy, adrienne Otterhan, and graphic design by Francis Farala. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.