From Classroom Challenges to Leadership Triumphs: Joanna Povall's School Leadership Journey

Join us as we explore the experiences of Joanna Povall, the TES Principal of the Year 2024, who shares her story of resilience and determination. Joanna recounts her unexpected career shift and the key moments that shaped her path, from managing challenging behaviours in Manchester to leading Wales International School in Abu Dhabi. Her motto, "never, ever, ever give up," highlights her dedication and impact on education.

Step into the vibrant hallways of Wales International School, where Joanna has created a culture of solid morals and academic excellence. Learn about her innovative strategies for community engagement, including family events and open-door policies, which have enriched the school's environment and inspired ambitious students. Joanna also discusses her work-life balance, finding peace in Abu Dhabi's landscapes, and the importance of self-care for educators. As she shares her excitement for an upcoming trip to Ascension Island, you'll be inspired and eager to pursue your own educational goals.

Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.

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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:26

You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast connecting, developing and empowering educators.

Speaker 2: 0:37

Hey, hey everyone. This is Lisa Grace, welcoming you back to another episode of the Teach Middle East podcast. Today I have the wonderful Joanna Paval. She is the principal of Wales International School in Abu Dhabi and we're going behind the principal's desk. I don't see a desk, so we're going to be go behind that cream chair that she has there to learn a little bit more about her. What makes her tick? Who is she as a person On the wall behind her? She has never, ever, ever give up, Never. And I love that, because I love these little mantras and things. Welcome, Joanna.

Speaker 3: 1:17

It's lovely to be here.

Speaker 2: 1:19

Before we jump in guys, we didn't plan this. The podcast is taking place just days after Joanna has been named in the TESS Awards as Principal of the Year 2024. Massive congratulations to you, Joanna. It was a big shock and it's lovely.

Speaker 3: 1:36

Thank you I feel very humbled and very honoured. So all the wonderful people in the world. So that made me feel very emotional about it, and the kids have been so excited at school.

Speaker 2: 1:46

But that's what makes it worthwhile no, you know what it is when you win an award. It sometimes you feel a little bit like you can't revel in it because it will come off as arrogant. I say revel in that. Revel, you are the principal of the year. Revel in that, because why not?

Speaker 3: 2:06

thank you that's very kind. It's when you get imposter syndrome, when you keep thinking it can't be me, because there were so many fabulous people, particularly in the middle east. You meet all of these amazing principles and you just think, yeah, it can't be me, because they're fantastic and I'm just me so who are you, and that's all that matters.

Speaker 2: 2:24

So take a bow. How did it start, joanna? How did you end up in education in the first place?

Speaker 3: 2:33

I'll be very honest, I'm not a career teacher. It wasn't something that I always wanted to do, and I was talking to somebody the other day and it was making me laugh because we were talking about careers education and I had really appalling careers education when I was at school. So when I was about 14, we had a lady came to the school and said you know, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I said I'd like to be a psychiatrist, because that's what I thought I wanted to do, and my career's advice was literally are you good at science? And I said no, I'm dreadful at science. And she went oh well, you need a medical degree to be a psychiatrist, so you need to think of something else. Thank you very much. Bye. It didn't say think about psychology, or do you really understand what psychiatry is? And I think what I actually wanted to be was a psychologist, but I didn't realize. So I just thought, oh, I can't be that.

Speaker 3: 3:19

Then I thought I would join the police and we actually had the police came to school and spoke to us and they were talking about what it meant to be a policewoman or a policeman, and the gentleman who was talking said, what you need to realize is the worst thing that you will have to do, and one of the first things that you'll have to do is tell somebody that a member of their family has died. And if you don't think you can do that, don't join the police force. And at 14 years old I thought I can't do that. You know I'm not capable of doing that. So that went out of my mind and I just didn't think about it and then I kind of stumbled into it as I went to university and then I actually we'd got together and had our oldest child while I was still at university and I thought you know what we're going to do now. I'll go into teaching, and it was the one of the best decisions that I have ever made in my life, because I love it.

Speaker 3: 4:08

What did you teach? I taught religion. So I taught Islamic studies and religious studies and philosophy lovely where?

Speaker 2: 4:18

where did you begin teaching when I?

Speaker 3: 4:20

first started. So I went to Durham University and then I got a job in Manchester and I worked in a state comprehensive school that was quite tough, in a tough area of Manchester called Moss Side so any British people listening will understand where that is, because it's quite notorious in the UK and that was a real baptism of fire in terms of behavior management. I learned my trade very quickly because you had to survive. I could tell you some horror stories of things that happened while I worked at that school. Uh, people, if you put it in a film people wouldn't believe you. We had a lady um abducted but with people with baseball bats kicked the door of her classroom in, and but you know it was a real, not anything that I was used to when I was growing up. So that was a very interesting two years and then moved up to the northeast of England.

Speaker 3: 5:08

I was quite fortunate in my career because I learned very quickly early on um just being there by chance. I do believe in God's rich tapestry and that things happen for a reason. And my very first job the lady that had been there previously that not surprisingly had a nervous breakdown and left the school. So they've had a succession of about 10 supply teachers before I went there and I turned up on the first day after being told at the interview that it was a department. Well, the department was me, and then, because it was religious studies, there was a history teacher, an English teacher, a geography teacher, who were all in the department but they had their own subject area.

Speaker 3: 5:46

So it was right, johnny, you're doing all the planning. We need your help, we don't know what or a geography teacher, who were all in the department but they had their own subject area. So it was right, joanna, you're doing all the planning. We need your help. We don't know what to do with this. We haven't got any schemes of work. Joanna, can you do this? So I kind of, at the age of 22, became the de facto head of department and learned what it meant to do all of the paperwork and things very quickly early on.

Speaker 2: 6:08

And that was great, it was good practice. It was do you know what, as you were talking about being from other faculties and then teaching religious education, I taught religious education for, I think, about two years to year eight or seven, in London. Uh, gotta be honest, I it was not my thing.

Speaker 3: 6:23

I was like you have to love it, you really have to love it and I actually miss it. But I miss teaching it because I love talking about what people believe and different values and a lot of you'll know from from teaching it. A lot of it's talking about morals and ethics and what people believe in different situations and I miss teaching it yeah, it was quite interesting.

Speaker 2: 6:45

Why did you choose that subject?

Speaker 3: 6:52

I just love it. I love it. It's a little bit it goes back to my original thoughts about being a psychiatrist. It's a bit of psychology, it's what people believe and what makes them tick, and I just find it really interesting.

Speaker 2: 6:58

So when you taught religious education, was there sort of like a pathway that you saw yourself going down? Or did you just happen to, after being the de facto head of department, just kind of became thrusted into leadership, or did you kind of see a path for yourself?

Speaker 3: 7:15

no, I would say I was thrusted into leadership and I enjoyed it and I like, um, the paperwork aspect of it, which I know people don't like. It's not cool and you know to talk about the paperwork aspect of it, but I really enjoy it and the policies and procedures. And again, I was talking about this the other day with somebody. I did the COVID preparation for aspiring heads and everybody laughed at me because we sat there in the middle of the room and there were things all around the room saying you know, policies and procedures leading from the heart, team building, children at the centre of everything. And we all stood in the middle and they said, after three seconds or ten seconds, I think it was, you know, run to the one that means the most to you.

Speaker 3: 7:54

So I wasn't concentrating, I was trying to think about where I was going to run. And then I ran to where I was and turned around and realised that I was the only person standing next to policies and procedures and everybody else had gone to it and I was like there's only me. And then the gentleman running the course said you know, come on, joanna, you're the only one, why are you there? And I said you know I do lead from the heart and I do believe that children are the center of everything and I do like to have team building. But you can't do any of that without policies and procedures and and really that's been my interest all the way on I love it so after your after your first sort of push into leadership?

Speaker 2: 8:31

where did it? Where did the journey go next?

Speaker 3: 8:34

it happened again. So I moved to another school, again teaching religious education, and I was second in department, because obviously you know, I was still quite young. And then, unfortunately, the head of department's husband was that it was quite tragic. He was terminally ill and she made a decision to take time off work, and you know, rightly so so she took an extended leave to look after her husband and again I ended up being head of department and I would say it was a confidence thing because probably, in all honesty, I could have gone for a role as head of department even after two years, because I'd already been doing it for two years. But I didn't feel confident enough to do that.

Speaker 3: 9:12

So again I was put in a position where it just happened, naturally, without me doing anything and not expecting it, and I thought, actually, do you know what I really enjoy this? So I actually applied for a job in a different school when she came back as a head of department and I stayed at that school for five years and while I was there I rose up the ranks within that school. So I started as head of department and ended up, as you call it, it was a senior teacher. In those days you call it an assistant head teacher now and interestingly it was a pastoral role, which isn't really my thing Because, like I say, I'm the paperwork person and curriculum and policies. But I ended up being in charge of key stage three and doing the primary liaison as well, so that was really great.

Speaker 2: 9:56

Why do you think a lot of school leaders, including myself, just can't stand paperwork?

Speaker 3: 10:03

I don't know. I don't know. I think it's because it's finding the time to do it, because your day is so busy. With all the best will in the world, you can't keep up with everything that you need to keep up with, so it becomes a chore rather than a pleasure, if that makes sense. So that you know, I was talking to somebody the other day. I have a PA, but sometimes I'll be sitting with somebody and I don't think can my PA please come and sit next to me and take minutes, and so I do a meeting. And then I'm thinking now I need to sit down and I need to write that up, I need to register that we use CPOMs and I need to go on to CPOMs and I need to log in and I'm going oh, you know, and then I sit down to do it, and then somebody else comes in and they need something, and it's because it's constantly moving, it doesn't? It's really important, but you just can't find time during the day.

Speaker 2: 10:51

I think I think that is a good reason, and I think the other reason is I don't know I just think people who go into teaching are more creative in yeah, in nature, and so they tend to want to just do the really fun or hands-on type of things and paperwork just seems to be that's how I felt. It felt like a bother, like oh, I've got to write this report.

Speaker 3: 11:16

Yeah, you're right, because it should be fun. Every day in school is fun.

Speaker 2: 11:21

No, it should be so. Then you went to middle leadership and then up to assistant headship, and so how did your transition into being a principal happen?

Speaker 3: 11:34

I moved to France and stayed there for a very long time in the same school and was the deputy head in that school. Um then what happened that? So I stayed there for a long time. It's a British school in the south of France which is a very lovely place to live. And then my husband and I made the decision that we were going to move, and we decided that we would have an adventure and move to the UAE. But for us the UAE has got a bit of a special meaning because my husband's father actually worked with Shakespeare in 1968 or 69. I can't remember which one. So he came over here when it was still the crucial states and put the telephone lines in. So all of the telephone lines from Abu Dhabi to Al Ain and from Abu Dhabi to Dubai were put in by my father-in-law. So we've got a connection here. We came here and I worked at international community schools in Abu Dhabi, to begin with in Branch 4, and then in their head office, uh, as their education advisor.

Speaker 3: 12:31

And this is my PhD. When I have enough time to sit down and do a PhD, being an education director was my absolute dream. When I did it, I discovered it wasn't my dream. After all, that happens, yeah, yeah, I thought this is what I want to do. I want to work with schools and I want to do school improvement, to work with the principals and it really. I thought I need to get back into a school and so I applied for the job at Wales and I've been here for this is my second year.

Speaker 3: 13:02

Oh wow, how are you finding it? I absolutely love it. Like I said, we've got a lot of work to do, but I can see the progress that we've made over over time and that's really important. To keep keep going back, to thinking about where we were and where we're at now. It's because I tend to I'm really terrible for focusing on. You know, this is where I want to be and I want to be there quickly and it's not going to be quick, it's going to take time and it can be frustrating to think, you know, but you know I want the kids to be making more progress and we need to do be doing the best for them, and that's something that I struggle with is the frustration of wanting to move it forward but being conscious that it's going to take time to get to where we want it to be Tell me about Wales.

Speaker 2: 13:44

I haven't been to Wales International School. I know of it but I haven't been there. But tell me about it where is it? And tell me all about it. Tell our listeners as well.

Speaker 3: 13:54

We are really, really lucky that you are the second person that said that to me, because we had added compliance yesterday and the lady who came when she was leaving said you've got a lovely school. It's so warm and friendly and inviting. I'd never even heard of it before. Um, so the school was started eight years ago. We're in Al-Khamkha in Abu Dhabi, which is kind of the desert area towards the border of Dubai, so it's probably the second place that you come to when you cross the border from Dubai into Abu Dhabi. Um, it's an absolutely beautiful school. Uh, we're privately owned.

Speaker 3: 14:26

Our owner is a local and he is the kindest, most wonderful person in the universe. He, he has a business separate that. So this for him, the school, it's not that it's not for profit, but he's really not bothered about that. He wants the investments we put back into the community to make sure that we're doing the best for the children, and that's very unusual to be able to be fortunate enough to work for somebody that feels like that. So I feel very, very lucky to have that support.

Speaker 3: 14:55

We are about 90% Emirati local children they're absolutely gorgeous and the other 10% are mainly Arabs from other countries and about well, 9% and then 1% are other nationalities but majority Muslim children and it's just a wonderful, wonderful place to work. We're named after Princess Diana, so everybody gets confused by the name because it's Wales and people think it's the Welsh curriculum and they go. You know, lots of got to do with Wales. The owner of the school really admired Princess Diana and you know just how her humanitarian work and her kindness and so he named the school after her how lovely.

Speaker 2: 15:38

So when, when you, when you look at the school now, by the way, does it go all the way up to secondary? Yeah, 3 to eighteen, okay, brilliant. So when you look at the school now, where do you envision it to be going like? What are your plans?

Speaker 3: 15:55

I would like it to be an outstanding school, particularly in terms of the achievement of the children. We've got really ambitious kids who their behavior in terms of general sort of misbehavior kids are kids, but their behavior is absolutely great. You know that. For me that's fantastic because you hear stories of other schools around the UAE. Our children are really very moral, and a lot of them it's quite a conservative area around here so lots of the children and when we talk in terms of Islamic values in the school, it really means something to them. So they're very moral and they want to do the right thing, but their behavior for learning is not quite the same. You know they haven't got the habits of of learning and you know, making sure that that they're reading regularly, study habits and that's something that we really need to work on making, making sure that the teaching is outstanding, to make sure that we adapt things for children. They're all EAL, every single child in the school is EAL, so we need to work on making sure that they understand and that we can grow and make progress.

Speaker 3: 16:59

I do something called Picnic with the Principal every Friday and the Picnic is hilarious. It's the highlight of my week. So they get nominated by their teacher and if they've done some really good work or if they've done something kind, they get nominated to come. And I always say to them bring your books, show me what you're proud of. And they show me their books and then I've got set questions for them and I say you know, how long have you been at the school? You know, do you think the school's getting better than it was before? If they've been here for a while, you know what's your favorite subject.

Speaker 3: 17:26

And I always say to them what do you want to be when you grow up? And it's just lovely, because it's very rare. When I worked in the UK and even when I worked in France, for most children, even when they were 15, 16, and if you said to them what you want to do when you leave school, you would get this. I don't know. The kids here are just a bit to go. I'd like to be a doctor, I'd like to be a lawyer, I'd like to be in the government.

Speaker 2: 17:48

They're so ambitious and it's a big responsibility to get very emotional about it, so I need to make that happen yeah, and and in terms of the community in which the school, how involved are they in in this in wales international school?

Speaker 3: 18:05

I've made it. So they have to be um, and to me that's we want to be the heart of the community. When I arrived at school, I would say it was a little bit of an island, so people didn't go out and people didn't come in and I just said open the doors. You know that we have to have parental engagement in the school, otherwise this isn't going to work. So I have an open door policy, genuinely, that the parents can come. Every Wednesday morning we have coffee morning from eight till nine. They come along to that.

Speaker 3: 18:34

We do, we did a family iftar and just things that hadn't happened before. So some of the things that I'm talking about people be going, all schools do that, but it wasn't happening here and I think my favorite story to do with that is one of our dads, um, I introduced a family cinema night so the kids could come in and bring their mom and dad and we just sit and watch a film and we get the popcorn in and you know they just sit with their friends and talk halfway through the film. But it just doesn't matter. You know, it's just socializing and one of our dads was leaving and he said thank you for what you're doing for our community and I said what do you mean?

Speaker 3: 19:08

you know the kids are just running around having a laugh. And I said what do you mean? And he said you don't understand. There isn't anything in our shop. We don't have a cinema, we don't have, you know, the activity areas that the children can go to. So you opening the door means that our children can come and see their friends. So thank you, and I thought that was a really nice thing and that's what I want for the school just to be the heart of the community yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2: 19:32

I love that because I think sometimes and I've seen many schools gone to tons of schools sometimes we're tempted to compete or to measure according to okay, that school is doing better than this school. But I think a lot of that is irrelevant, because I think if the school is serving the community in a genuine way and it's improving each year on what it offers to the learners and to the community that it serves, I think that is what makes it an outstanding school Right? So, in keeping with that whole community feel and community ethos of the school, I'm going to ask you in general, though how do you think school leaders can help to foster that sense of community in their schools, maybe where it's lacking? So a bit of advice from somebody who's managed to to do that.

Speaker 3: 20:31

I think, listen to your community. We've had this conversation before, lisa. You need to listen to what it is that people want and I think you know, even by doing surveys. When I first arrived at the school, I did a stop, start, continue survey really simple, so no huge questions with things that they needed to answer. You know, what does Wales need to stop doing that it's doing and it's doing wrong? What does it need to start doing that it isn't doing already and what does it need to continue doing that it's doing?

Speaker 3: 20:56

Well, and I looked at the answers that they gave with that and thought do you know what? You don't even need to write a school improvement plan. The parents have told me and everything that they said. They know they listen to their children, the kids see everything and they hear everything and they know what's going on in the school. And then we put all of that together with what we thought the school direction was that it needed to go into and then worked with people. So, having great people come into the school. We've got a fantastic board of governors, we've got a great pta, getting people involved and just keep listening to them, checking back in with people regularly it's really important and doing the fun stuff as well getting to know people. You know you don't get to know a parent who's coming in to complain about the school in the meeting. Or even if you know, you pass somebody in the corridor and they say, oh hello, I'm this parent.

Speaker 2: 21:44

You need to get to know people and doing social events is a really good way of doing that yeah, I do think that is actually quite true and I also think it's very important to just listen to those little by the way conversations that happen as you you're at the gate or you're you're welcoming somebody in just to have a chat. Those conversations offer you so much insight into what the community needs, how the school can grow, how the school can support and serve the people in its community absolutely, and I always say to people.

Speaker 3: 22:17

a friend of mine said to me years ago I think she put me on to Brene Brown and there was a sentence that really stuck out to me, which was it's better to have a hundred tiny conversations than one big explosion.

Speaker 2: 22:30

Oh my gosh, that is so true. That is so true about yourself as a school leader. We talked a lot, you and I, um following on from MESLC, the school leadership conference, about empathy and about kindness as a school leader, um, when you think about your, your role as a school leader, how do you interweave kindness into what you're doing?

Speaker 3: 22:57

I think it's. I've told you before it's not something that came naturally to me because I'm from a very hard line of family, so I would say it's something that I've had to learn to do and I think I told you at the time that the best piece of advice that I was given to that is to always remember it's a mantra that is in my head all of the time that not everybody's like you and treat people with kindness and listen, and people deal with things in different ways and you have to realize that you need to get to know yourself very well and then you can think. Actually, the example I always give is that this friend of mine that said it to me was I was getting frustrated and said but it only takes 10 minutes. And she said no, it takes you 10 minutes, it might take somebody else two hours, it might take somebody else two days. Not everybody's like you. And when I'm thinking about trying to be kind to people, it's remembering that we're all different and we've all got different pressures. And I remember and again, it's knowing people's story so that you can take things into account really and I always think of.

Speaker 3: 24:02

There was a gentleman I worked with in France and he had a family and both him and his wife worked and he decided they decided for their child care because it's not like the UAE, you can't afford nannies at the south of France, it's not. It's not that kind of culture in Europe so that they didn't have a child minder or a nanny or anything and they decided for it to work for their family. He would arrive at work at six in the morning. School started at nine but when school finished at four he had to get in the car and go and pick his kids up and his wife stayed at school till six o'clock in the evening because they were both teachers, so they kind of did it in shifts.

Speaker 3: 24:41

But my boss didn't come in until later so he didn't see this chap arrive at six in the morning. He just saw him getting in the car at four o'clock and his comment was every day on the bell there he is out the door and I said, yeah, because he's got to go and pick his kids up. Oh well, he needs to do that. And he was going out with bags of you know carrier, bags full of books. And I said, yeah, but what you don't realize, because you don't come to school till 8 30. He's already been here for two and a half hours. He arrives at six every morning, and so I think you have to look at the whole picture and just be kind, because everybody's circumstances are different yeah, I think.

Speaker 2: 25:20

Recently I heard this quote do not expect you from other people oh, I like that one and so, yeah, that one kind of stuck in my mind. And so, when we think about kindness and empathy, as as school leaders, how do you then ensure that people don't take that kindness and that empathy for granted, or even weakness?

Speaker 3: 25:43

yeah, they have to be fair and we've talked about that at the conference and I think it's something that you have to be mindful of, because if you do it for one person, then it opens the door to having to do it for other people. So it's it's within boundaries and I think, like I say, you need to take different things into account, but you also need to make sure that you're being fair to everybody, otherwise it just becomes a free-for-all. You know, I remember a story when I was working in the UK where it was a lady. Her husband had bought her some tickets for a football match and had accidentally done it on the wrong day, so they thought it was a Saturday. They hadn't looked at the dates correctly it was a Wednesday. It was in a different part of the country, so could she take a day off? Well, the problem was being kind, she was told yes, but then that opened the door to absolutely everybody else in the school going.

Speaker 2: 26:32

Hang on a minute, if she's had a day off for a football match, I'd quite fancy going to visit my son at university and I'm going to go a day early, and so you just need to be really careful that it's within guidelines and that it's fair to everybody. Yeah, no, that's, that's true, and we did knock that out a bit at MESLC. Wanted to go back to something. Though. Your school is in Shamka. It's not the most known school, so well done on you for winning principal of the year and really kind of you getting that spotlight shone on your school. How do you attract staff to Shamka?

Speaker 3: 27:08

Can I tell you it's been a really interesting 12 months. So it depends who they are. Because I'm European, driving for half an hour or 40 minutes is knocking to us, but I know it's very different in the UAE. So you can actually get to the city centre of Abu Dhabi in 40 minutes. I would think nothing of that. So you know, I used to live on Ream Island. It would take me 40 minutes to get there and I just went. Well, you know, it's fine. That's what we do in Europe. So for a lot of Europeans it's really not Because of the context of the school and because it's really important and it ties in with the values of Princess Diana and kindness and compassion.

Speaker 3: 27:53

The school's values are respect, honesty and care and because we're in a very conservative area, we've really gone with the UAE national identity. We've got a lot of Emirati students and we've taken that on board as, although we're a British school, we want to reflect the UAE national identity and Islamic values and it's been really interesting that this year we've had a lot of British Muslim people who have been attracted to the school because they want to work in a school that has Islamic values and they're feeling I think it was Kai Basher said it at the BSME conference when I mentioned it some people are feeling a little bit disenfranchised in the UK as Muslim people. So coming to a school which is British you know they're British, british trained they want to come to a school that they're comfortable in and the Islamic values aspect of our USP is really appealing to British Muslim people.

Speaker 2: 28:44

That's a nice little niche you've carved out there.

Speaker 3: 28:48

Yeah, it's been really interesting.

Speaker 2: 28:51

So I want to change gears a little bit, because this podcast I love to, especially behind the principal's desk. I love to talk about school and talk about pedagogy, but I also want to talk about you. So I'm just going to go kind of left. When you are not at school, what are you up to? I'm just going to go kind of left.

Speaker 3: 29:11

When you are not at school, what are you up to? Usually work. I never switch off. I'm terrible. I've got it totally wrong for myself. So when we talk about kindness and empathy, I'm not very kind to myself. I never, ever, ever, switch off. But although sometimes I am getting better at it, sometimes I do like to go for a nice pool day and switch off and read. My husband is a little bit worried because all I read. If I'm not reading, you can say I'm as bad as you. I can see your books in the background. I've got millions of books in my background. I'm either reading educational books or I love a good murder mystery.

Speaker 2: 29:47

And I frighten my husband by telling him I'm doing research, research and murder mystery. You do have to get that balance a bit better, though, joanna. You can't work every single day and you cannot sacrifice not being able to switch off, because, as much as you love Wales International School and you love your job and you love what you do, there is still you as the individual that needs nurturing, that needs that time to really build back so you can give. If you had the opportunity to switch off for a day no pool involved, no books involved what would you do with that day?

Speaker 3: 30:32

I think I would go to all of the lovely places that you can go to in abu dhabi that are serene. So I would go to the sheikh sayyed mosque because I enjoy going there. That's somewhere where I feel like a switch off and I feel very peaceful. Uh, I'm there, and then just opposite I don't know if you've ever been there's actually a memorial to the martyrs of the UAE and it's absolutely. It's bang opposite the Sheikh Salih Mosque and it's such a peaceful place. There's a beautiful fountain in the middle and then they've done a sculpture in memory of everybody that's given their life for the UAE, and sometimes that's a nice place to go and I can watch the sunset behind the mosque. It's truly beautiful. Or a walk across Saadiyat beach would be nice oh yeah, I love Saadiyat beach.

Speaker 2: 31:15

I think it's the best beach in the UAE. It's beautiful and and, in terms of family, you are here just with your husband.

Speaker 3: 31:23

No, no kids yeah, just our kids are in the UK, so. So I've got two children. One is 24 and she works in HR she loves that and my oldest one is 30 years old and she is an English teacher, so she's hollered in my family footsteps. And I've got two grandchildren who are seven and three. And the seven year old is hilarious. She wants to be a teacher when she grows up. And I said to her why do you want to be a teacher when she grows up? And I said to her why do you want to be a teacher? She said because I'm bossy. And I said okay, and then she said it just cracks me up. She said but not little kids, though. Little kids are annoying. And I said you're seven and she went yeah, I mean like reception, therefore they're annoying.

Speaker 2: 32:08

I mean, she knows what she's talking about. She's closer in age with them so she can actually figure out. I ask my kids I don't know what I've done to my kids never. They never mention school or teaching or education. If I say to them, where do you see yourself working when you're older? What do you want to do? Education comes nowhere in that conversation. They want to do engineering or game design or something in it. One of my sons wants to do um culinary arts. He wants to become a michelin star chef. He's really good actually at cooking. I don't know where that came from not me, um. And so I've. I'm thinking I've done a number on them because they're like nope, that is not my forte.

Speaker 3: 32:53

They don't want to do that yeah, watch this space, though, because my oldest one I would have said exactly the same when she was little and I think, uh, secret confession time. I don't mind telling the world. I'm very honest, you used to be Lisa. I'm just always very brutally honest about it. Go on, if you ask my children, they would probably tell you that I was the worst mum in the world, because school always came first. And I actually thought, if you speak to my youngest one, she would say absolutely no way would she ever have gone into education, because she saw me and when my oldest one was little, she wouldn't have said and I think she again. It's something that she thought. You know, I think I could do this and she's actually really. It warms my heart because sometimes I'll get a whatsapp message from her and it's a photo of a kid's work and she goes look at what one of my kids did and it's just like that's what you want in a teacher and you know it really comes from her heart.

Speaker 2: 33:48

I think I think, well, here's the thing right. I think that your daughter is probably kind of like at that stage, when she was refusing, was thinking of the hard work that you've done, not looking at the satisfaction. Now she's gotten to the point where she can see how satisfying a role um it is. My husband is an ex-teacher as well. I'm sure he's going to. When he hears this podcast because sometimes he does listen he's going to be like why would you tell the world that? Because now he doesn't do anything. He doesn't do anything in terms of teaching, he's an accountant, but he's always been like if our kids go into education, it's probably because that's the last thing and there was nothing else for them to do.

Speaker 2: 34:33

Because I think what happened was when they were really young, I was um leading a school in Al Ain called Al Shaheen school, and I was always about school, and so my, my little one grew up saying things like sh? Shh, mommy's in her office, she has a meeting. Like it was bad. That was kind of. When I made that change is because I realized, oh, I'm not paying enough attention to them. So I think I might have turned them off permanently In terms of going a little bit futuristic now. What excites you about education and where it's going?

Speaker 3: 35:20

And also, on the flip side, what worries you? Can I start with the thing that worries me and then go to the positive? Yes, yes, I think I love technology, I think it is really, really useful. But it scares me for the future, for for the children, and I think I can see wonderful things and I can see the benefits of it. But I've got a real fear of losing our ability to think, and even myself.

Speaker 3: 35:46

I was watching the other day something, something stupid was in the background while I was working on TV and there was a gentleman who picked a telephone up and dialed a number and that number didn't work. So he dialed another number. It was something from a lot and I thought you know what? I don't think I could do that because I use my phone so much I can't remember what anybody's telephone number is. I know what mine is and I know my mum and dad. We've had the same telephone number for about the past 40 years. But if you said to me phone Lisa, I'd be going oh, hang on, I need to look at my phone.

Speaker 3: 36:19

And even now, when I was younger, we lived quite close to my grandparents and we used to have Sunday morning coffee morning, where all of the aunties and all of the uncles and everybody would get together and they would alternate houses and one of the newspapers used to do a crossword, but it was a trivia crossword, and we used to sit there and they would go, oh, what was the Bay City Rollers hit in 1975? And they'd be going oh, I can't remember what it is. And the whole family would sit and do this trivia crossword and sometimes there was an answer that we couldn't get and you literally had to wait until the week after until you got the answer. And it was one night my husband had never forgiven me because we were at home and there was a question and it was what's the capital of Libya? And nobody could remember what it was.

Speaker 3: 37:04

And at three o'clock in the morning I woke up and I woke my husband up and went Tripoli. And he went what it's Tripoli? And he went what you talked about, the capital of Libya? And he went it's three o'clock in the morning. I just remembered it now and it was. But that was trying to remember things and I think we've got so used to. If I don't know what the capital of Libya is, I look it up on my phone and I find it in two seconds but it's not going in and it just worries me that in the future, if we're relying on technology so much, we're going to lose our memory oh, wow, so that scares me.

Speaker 2: 37:42

I don't. I don't think it scares me that much, so you have to pardon me, because you guys, you or everybody who listens to this, knows I'm a massive tech buff. I think we will find other ways to sharpen our brains. I think we will evolve. We've always, we are a species that evolves and I think we'll evolve and we will find ways to sharpen our mental acuity.

Speaker 3: 38:11

And I think we will be OK. So if that, if that helps you make me feel better, thank you, which leads me on to my thing that I really like, which is the future of education, and I really feel that the direction that education is going and looking at people's well-being, it is something that's really important, particularly children, and obviously teachers and staff are important too, and parents, um, and I think if we can work together as a community, that's really important, and just looking after each other and looking after each other's well-being is important. Even though I'm useless at doing it for myself, doing it for other people, it's really important yeah, I'm not enjoying hearing that you're not taking care of your own well-being, joanna.

Speaker 2: 38:48

I'm terrible. I have to be honest with you, I think, moving on from this podcast, I think I want you to really sit down and think about how you can make sure that you carve out time for yourself. How do you know when you're not well?

Speaker 3: 39:05

My neck, I'm telling you, it's like this at the minute. My neck, I'm telling you, it's like this at the minute. So I feel it in my neck that I can feel the stress and the pressure and it starts and start going like this and I think, oh, I'm not good, because I can feel the tension?

Speaker 2: 39:20

do you do any kind of physical activities? Lots of walking no I mean proper sports.

Speaker 3: 39:29

I haven't got time. I need to join my husband. My husband swims every day, every single day. He will go after work, he teaches, he will go after school, he'll swim at the weekend.

Speaker 2: 39:41

He gets up and swims and I need to start joining him doing that yeah, or, you know, if you are not even a swimmer, swimming is excellent, so you should either do that or find something that you really enjoy, that you can do for 30 minutes at least, at least five days per week. It's super important, like if you are going to be the example. When I talk to school leaders, I always ask them this what are you doing to take care of yourself, to fill your cup, so that you can give from your overflow? And it sounds like you're not filling your cup, joanna do you know?

Speaker 3: 40:21

I've got my homework for me.

Speaker 2: 40:23

I promise you I'll try, yes or you know it, start small, a morning stretch. There are loads of stretch and yoga videos and stuff online. Just start with a 15 minute stretch and work your way up as you go through that, because as much as you want to really bring your school into its next phase, you have to be well enough to do that school into its next phase. You have to be well enough to do that. And so, for everybody who's listening, who's a leader and who really wants to take their school or their business or their establishment forward, you can't do that if you're not well, and so that's why well-being, like you were talking about, is so super important.

Speaker 2: 41:06

And then, when we also think about the fact that, if AI and we're not going to need our memories as much as you just told me, then we have to kind of now start thinking what our place is in the world as human beings, because if AI can do things better than we can, or machines can do, do better than them, and that's what we've got to hone in on. Yeah, definitely, totally agree. Yeah, all right, before we wrap up the podcast, we are in the third term of the year. So summer plans what are your summer plans? Oh, you to laugh.

Speaker 3: 41:45

I am in the first week. It's still work, sorry. So in the first week of the holiday I am very, very, very, very lucky. My husband is not speaking to me because he is so jealous. I am a Cobus lead improvement partner and for many years there was a school on Ascension Island which has been desperate to be a Cobus member. On Ascension Island which has been desperate to be a COBIS member.

Speaker 3: 42:11

We did their compliance for COBIS online and they have invited me to do the COBIS accreditation visit on Ascension Island. So I have to fly to the UK, go to Bryce Norton RAF base and get the RAF plane for nine and a half hours to Ascension Island, which is literally in the middle of nowhere. There's one flight there and then the flight back, so it goes from Oxford to Ascension Island, ascension Island to the Falkland Islands, then turns around and comes back to Ascension Island and then back to the UK. So I'm going there for the first week to do their COVID accreditation and I'm so excited because going there for the first week to do their COVID accreditation and I'm so excited because I don't think you have to actually be invited to come to the island. You can't just go. The governor has to give permission for you to go, because it's a high security base for the RAF. So I'm really excited about that, and then when I come back to England, I'm going to stay there and spend some time with my family.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Ah, that sounds good. That sounds exciting. Thank you so much for being on the podcast with me, Joanna.

Speaker 3: 43:15

It's a pleasure, it's really lovely. I love speaking to you, thank you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 43:22

Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle East podcast. Visit our website teachmiddleeastcom and follow us on social media. The links are in the show notes.