Have you ever wondered how to truly empower teachers in an ever-evolving educational landscape? Join Leisa Grace Wilson on the Teach Middle East podcast as she sits down with Matt Tiplin, Vice President at ONVU Learning. In this compelling episode, they uncover key strategies for continuous teacher development that align with both personal and professional aspirations, creating a vibrant and effective learning environment for students. Matt shares his insights on guiding teachers toward focused, bite-sized professional learning, providing relevant information without overwhelming them.
Reflecting on her own journey as a novice teacher and in leadership roles, Leisa highlights the trials and triumphs of teacher training, from ineffective, unguided observations to the pitfalls of one-size-fits-all assessment strategies. Together, they emphasise the necessity of tailored, consultative approaches, ongoing support, and follow-up. They delve into whole-staff inset sessions and the importance of actions taken afterwards, offering practical steps for integrating professional development into a school’s structured plan.
Finally, they tackle the often overlooked aspect of teacher self-care and personal development, advocating for a balanced approach that enriches professional skills and personal growth. Packed with inspiration and practical strategies, this episode will transform your approach to teacher development. Tune in and be inspired!
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
Have you ever wondered how to truly empower teachers in an ever-evolving educational landscape? Join Leisa Grace Wilson on the Teach Middle East podcast as she sits down with Matt Tiplin, Vice President at ONVU Learning. In this compelling episode, they uncover key strategies for continuous teacher development that align with both personal and professional aspirations, creating a vibrant and effective learning environment for students. Matt shares his insights on guiding teachers toward focused, bite-sized professional learning, providing relevant information without overwhelming them.
Reflecting on her own journey as a novice teacher and in leadership roles, Leisa highlights the trials and triumphs of teacher training, from ineffective, unguided observations to the pitfalls of one-size-fits-all assessment strategies. Together, they emphasise the necessity of tailored, consultative approaches, ongoing support, and follow-up. They delve into whole-staff inset sessions and the importance of actions taken afterwards, offering practical steps for integrating professional development into a school’s structured plan.
Finally, they tackle the often overlooked aspect of teacher self-care and personal development, advocating for a balanced approach that enriches professional skills and personal growth. Packed with inspiration and practical strategies, this episode will transform your approach to teacher development. Tune in and be inspired!
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
Hey everyone, this is Lisa Grace on the Teach Middle East podcast, coming to you with Mr Matt Tipling and we're going to be talking all things teacher development, teacher training. We're going to talk about why less is potentially more when it comes on to teacher training.
Speaker 2:
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast connecting, developing and empowering educators.
Speaker 1:
I'm hot off the heels of coming back from Tanzania where I led a teacher training workshop on how to engage our learners, so I'm excited to learn how I can improve my craft, because I really got my taste buds wet again for teacher training. I thought I'd put that down for a minute, but then when I went there and saw how enthusiastic the teachers were, how much fun I had, how much I learned from them you know, sometimes we go into these things with a little ego and we think, oh, I'm going to teach them a lot. No friend, they taught me a lot. So, Matt, I'm excited. I would love for you to introduce yourself on the pod.
Speaker 3:
Well, first and foremost, lisa, thank you so much for having me. It's a real privilege. So my name is Matt Tiplin, I'm currently the commercial vice president of an ed tech company called On View Learning, and I'm also really proud to be a chair of governors for a community primary school in the south of England and a trustee of an education charity as well, with a bit of background in education myself. So I can't wait to have the conversation.
Speaker 1:
Brilliant Matt, thank you so much for joining me on the pod. We're talking about something that I am very passionate about, and that is teacher development. But we're talking about something that I am very passionate about, and that is teacher development, so I'm just going to head straight in with my first question, and that is why is it important that our teachers continually develop.
Speaker 3:
It's a great question. In my opinion my humble opinion it's because the kids that we're supporting as educators change every year. You know, I trained to be a teacher quite a while ago now slightly longer ago than I cared to share, necessarily, but the nature of the curriculum at the time, isn't it? It was totally different. The nature of what school meant was totally different. You know, both in the UK and, more broadly, abroad.
Speaker 3:
Children have a right to learn, and the great thing about kids is that every one of them is different, just like we all are. And so, as you have a cohort of children that join in K through 12 at any point in their journey, that you're going to have a completely different dynamic in that classroom. And so, as teachers, we've got to be prepared to adjust to what we're presented with, with whom we're working, so that we really do those kids in the room justice. You know, let's apply some of the old kind of models and frameworks that you're originally trained with, that seek that, yeah, through curiosity, seek that opportunity to improve and adjust, and I think that's what it boils down to.
Speaker 1:
I like that. When you talk about the fact that there are different students coming into our classroom every single year and so the things that we learned previously. It's not that they don't work anymore, it's just that we have to tweak them and we have to keep sharp and make sure that we understand exactly what's prevailing currently in the education space. How do you suggest that teachers keep on top of their professional learning? What are some things they can do?
Speaker 3:
You know what? It's a tricky question, because you know, we know, that teachers put themselves under a lot of pressure. I'm sure it was the same with you. You know we kind of feel a very sincere burden of responsibility to get it right. And so figuring out what that then means, getting it right for the children that you're responsible for there's no one straightforward answer.
Speaker 3:
But nowadays, I think, teachers have the great advantage of having access to quite a lot of information at their fingertips.
Speaker 3:
But the trick to supporting teachers access the right information at the right time, I think, as school leaders, has to be about providing clear guidance and expectations so that it's not scary, it doesn't feel like an undoable task and it doesn't feel like an additional workload burden being placed on teachers rather than it being right.
Speaker 3:
We trust you, you know, as teachers, you're trained, you're professional, you've chosen to go into a vocation that's all about sharing your knowledge and understanding of the way the world works through subjects and year groups. So just focus on this thing, go out and research that thing, find the evidence to support that way of doing things. That will just tweak a little bit around how you're interacting with your class or classes and that will make a difference, a difference and just I really believe that through bite-sized chunks, you know, either with coaches or mentors or that kind of train the trainer model, teachers can really feel as if they own a lot of what teachers get into. It's, you know, get into teaching to really to really achieve and do that sense of right. I'm here because I believe in children's right to learn. I want them to learn something I'm passionate about. I could do it a little bit better that way. So focused chunks and being pointed in the right direction, I think is just about the most important thing we can do from a teacher training point of view.
Speaker 1:
I like that. I like the fact that you mentioned that teachers can do it in sort of small bite sized chunks. But then you also talked about being pointed in the right direction by your school leadership. What does the school leader have to do to help, to guide their teachers into making sure they're accessing the right professional learning?
Speaker 3:
well, I think you've just used the word. Actually, I think it's about guiding, not telling or directing. It's that sense of, as a senior leader, really understanding you know what is it the teacher wants to do, what is it they need to do, where are the gaps between those, those bits and pieces? So, knowing the skill set and the person and the individual that you're supporting, and then guiding those people towards really solid, evidence-informed uh you know ways of working that might just tweak that teacher's skill set in a manner that wouldn't necessarily work for the next teacher that the senior leader is supporting. So, wherever possible, making it bespoke and I think it is that guide, given what you know, because you've got out of your way, to really invest into that person as an individual, as opposed to attempting to go for a one-size-fits-all and certainly avoiding the kind of sage on the stage mentality that you know certainly I was guilty of at points when I was a senior leader, because we know that it won't apply to everyone, it won't work for everyone.
Speaker 1:
Give me some practical examples of what this could look like in a school.
Speaker 3:
You know, that's a good question because I found, you know, going back a few years, there was a piece of work that John Westburn in the UK really promoted, partly through the work with it, as was the National College of School Leaders, and it's this idea of, as a middle leader, so a department head, a year group head, a phase or a faculty leader, pursuing a coaching triads model. So you know, having three people, two of whom are having a coaching conversation with the third person, as part of that triumph for it, if you like, just observing the way in which that conversation pans out, and it means that you have an impartial third party. Under those circumstances, to say to the person that's the coachee and the coach to say, ah, as a coach, did you realize you were kind of leading the witness? And as the coachee, do you realize that there were points where you kind of could have pushed back a bit more, because you know what you're doing, the coach has told you that, so you could have added to the conversation, as opposed to taking a step back and almost withdrawing. And I really valued that as a technique because it means that the nature of the conversation is far lower stakes. It feels like a discussion rather than a direction or a leadership model.
Speaker 3:
So I I think coaching triads is an old, tried and tested model but I think it works and I think a part of that can be trying to make those kinds of training opportunities a little less synchronous than perhaps we try to make them in schools. You know schools day to day are very much governed by timetables and models and routines, which is really important for children to have that structure. But adults learn differently and I think seeking an asynchronous model where you don't have to be in the same place at the same time and of course technology like we're using right now, really helps with that because you can have a five minute coaching meeting where you're not sat next to each other, for instance, or you can record something and watch it back. I think that really helps with that sense of genuine and sincere kind of drip feeding of advice and support. So if you can, coaching triads and if you don't have the time all at the same time, trying to drip feed in just bits of advice and bits of coaching in an asynchronous manner can really be effective.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I like that. Take me back to your time when you were in school and you were leadership. What bad experience did you have with teacher training and teacher development? What did that look like? What did that feel like?
Speaker 3:
Well, on the receiving end, I'll give you on the receiving end and something that I don't and that's something I know I got wrong as well as a leader, if that helps. You know, on the receiving end, I mean, I think, going right back to the early days as a brand new teacher. Receiving end, I mean, I think, going right back to the early days as a brand new teacher. One of the most unhelpful things I experienced was the kind of go and watch an experienced teacher do what they do and see what you spot and try and emulate that. I really disliked that. It didn't work for me because of a range of things. You know practically. You know the subject.
Speaker 3:
I taught geography at secondary level and so going to watch I think it was an art teacher or something like that at the time. You know they were a great teacher. They had loads of skills that I could pick up on, but none of it was obvious to me because I didn't know what I was looking for. I wasn't trained as an observer at that point in time. I didn't know what to pick out. I couldn't really get beyond the fact that this is a completely different subject. So what's it got to do with me and you know there was no time after the event to really have a debrief, to unpick where I could find synergies, where I could pick things up and and do so. I think as a training teacher, as an early career teacher, if you like, that was probably one of the least helpful things I was ever asked to do and advised to do. There was no follow-up, you know I was never checked to see if I was doing certain things, so it was all a little bit without direction. So yeah, hopefully that's a useful example.
Speaker 1:
I hope not many people do it too much anymore you'd be surprised, um and and, as a leader, what was some of those unhelpful things around professional learning that you maybe perpetuated?
Speaker 3:
yeah, you know what I think the the whole perpetuated. Yeah, you know what I think the whole group in SET session, you know, I remember there was a program or a project that I was leading on around in England. It was all about life after levels, so national curriculum levels, not being used anymore and at the same time we had new GCSE and A-level grades coming down the track as well. So I was leading a project to try and help staff understand how to assess in their classes in their subjects and fit all of this together. And the long story short was there was a lot going on and a lot to think through that I had in my head but in a series of twilight one-hour sessions in retrospect it was really ambitious to hope that a group of staff at the end of a busy working day were going to be able to take this all in and just kind of do it in the manner that I had envisaged.
Speaker 3:
And you know other members of the senior leadership team had kind of thought could work and it meant that at a certain point within fairly early on, I kind of had to go right back to the beginning and pursue a wholly more consultative approach, kind of one, toto-one, or in small groups, rather than saying, right, everyone, this is what you now need to do. This is why don't you all agree? Isn't it a wonderful idea? Because it was that one-size-fits-all kind of mentality and it did not fit all. So I ended up having to do it twice in effect, to just help people understand and also raise their concerns, because some of it was clearly going to be a change for some of my colleagues and in retrospect it wasn't fair the way I wanted to do it to begin with, so it just meant going over it again with people taking them on the journey, and it was one of those mistakes made early on in my senior leadership career that I certainly learned from.
Speaker 1:
Yeah. So here's my question then is there no place for the whole staff inset?
Speaker 3:
It's a good question.
Speaker 3:
I think it's a question I think a lot about, because I really believe that if you give people the opportunity to thrive and that means you know, give them a sense of guidance, give them a safety net so that if it goes wrong they don't feel as if they're failing, give them the opportunity to recognize what success looks like.
Speaker 3:
I think that can work in the manner that I'm getting at, but at some point along the journey you need to have perhaps that one size fits all session to share the common approach. But in my experience that's often either where the training kind of begins and ends, but without the follow-up bits to provide the scaffold to build the outcome that you're aiming for for the, the children and the students that teachers are there to serve, or the inset session attempts to do everything at once, like I try to do, you know. So this is the vision, this is how it's going to work and this is what I expect. There's a lot to take in, then. And how do you know whether or not it's working after the event? You know what are your check-ins, what's your communication. So I think there is a place for the whole, the kind of the mass events if you like, but I think it has a limitation around what you can possibly hope to convey.
Speaker 1:
What do you think about bringing in sort of like these consultants, inspirational speakers, educators, and having the whole staff there and having them, you know, present to them in that sort of whole school inset, maybe at the start of the year or midterm or the end of the year? Is there value in that?
Speaker 3:
there is. I think the real value if we're going to try and measure it, though will come with what happens next, because I think there's incredible value to having folks that really know their stuff or really present an alternative view, because schools can become fantastic echo chambers of their own and that can present a risk around innovation or different ways of thinking, particularly given the cohorts of children are going to change every year. But the question that I would raise is so what's once the person has left? The consultant has done their bit, delivered the session, inspired people, caused or triggered those questions amongst teachers. How is that picked up when they're not there, and what happens?
Speaker 3:
What happens subsequently and where the planning into that occurs, you know, in a kind of a dedicated and concerted manner, and you tend to see better outcomes after the events, and that's about helping the staff that remain in school after that. Uh, you know that that event really understand the. So what? What's the intention? What do we expect to see? That's going to change, so I think there is a place, absolutely, that it's as important to understand the down the line.
Speaker 1:
How can schools structure that down the line so that, after the you know big inset is over, they can actually reap the rewards of having done it?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it's a great question again because I think it's an incredibly easy thing to say and can turn out to be quite difficult to do, because a lot of schools day to day is around kind of the here and now, resolving that challenge or that issue or that concern or taking that opportunity. But planning is everything. Uh, you know, as teachers, we're particularly used to short, medium and long-term planning and for leadership teams to plan the same. It's the same deal. So if the insets with the you, the external experts, is at the start of the year, planning in check-in sessions throughout the year is just a must. When are we going to anticipate seeing the impact of this? How will we share with staff how we expect to see that, or how they should expect to see what success looks like?
Speaker 3:
And where I found it in one of my former roles particularly useful is then integrating, you know, the low stakes conversations, integrating those messages from the inset into those. So you know, going back to the coaching triad model, you know, if there's an opportunity because these conversations will be five minutes at the end of a day, most probably, you know, or whenever they're planned in, is there an opportunity? Just to ask, yeah, so what? What about that particular hypothetical session? Do you feel had an impact here, and can people start to join the dots between what I've done, what I've heard and what I'm now trying to execute or implement myself?
Speaker 1:
let's go practical with it, matt I I'm a principal. I'm bringing in Matt Tipling and he's going to talk to my staff about how to revolutionize assessments in the school right. So you're going to come in and you're going to do that. That's scheduled for September 1, day one. What do I, as a school leader, need to have in my diary? What do I need to have written down? What plans do I need to share with my middle and senior leadership team around that session? That is going to extrapolate all the richness throughout the academic year.
Speaker 3:
Get practical with me yeah, I think one of the things that we've done in what I've done in the past is structure our meeting cycle so that there would be a standing item on an agenda that simply targets this particular point. So, for example, you might have a three-week meeting cycle where, within department teams, you'd have a whole team meeting in week two. In this case, the week after that you might give staff time to do some personal development work, and then week three you just structure that meeting around what was done in week the other week before, given what you'd all decided was going to be kind of the aim in the first week of that three-week cycle, and then repeats, and then out of those three cycles, you'd be able to filter up via coaching or line management into the senior leadership team right out of one, two and three. What have we got? So the standing item is whatever I was presenting on in that first September one.
Speaker 3:
Are we seeing that feeding through the meeting cycle? How can we then triangulate that? Well, that would be through either the informal, formal observation route if it was very practical, classroom based, which would typically be something I'd focus on and are we seeing that there's either qualitative or quantitative evidence coming through to suggest that in classes we're seeing that thing. We're seeing really great questioning. It's really encouraging children to be curious and ask questions around the way the world works.
Speaker 3:
Um, you know, in geography we're seeing it through the volcano lessons in maths we're seeing it through pursuing multiple routes towards achieving the same outcome, and so on and so forth. So where I've done this in the past is really those two routes. Are we seeing it in classrooms on the chalk face and feeding that through, effectively, a kind of peer appraisal or observation structure, and then, on the other side of things, are we then talking about it? Are we discussing it to build first the foundation, then how are we going to think about doing it, and then are we really executing and implementing that? And then are we really executing and implementing that? And that three-week cycle tends to work pretty well, given that terms tend to be somewhere between multiples of three or four over the course of any given period.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I like that standing agenda item and sort of making sure that that's fed through. So I wanted to talk to you about individual teachers and we talked about less is more and we talked about microlearning and bite size. But what about alternative professional learning? What are some of the other things apart from your standard inset or reading a professional learning book? What are some of the other things teachers can do to really beef up their professional development?
Speaker 3:
That's a great question. I've never been asked. Professional development that's a great question. I've never been asked that before. That's a great question. I need to think.
Speaker 3:
I've always found it really curious that teachers spend a huge amount of their week with a group of children, largely on their own, and so they're role models. They are the adult in that child's life most of the week. Models they are the adults in that child's life most of the week. So what kind of example are teachers able to present to those kids if a disproportionate amount of their professional development is focused on what they were trained to do in the first place? So I think a huge amount more should be done around how teachers take care of themselves so that their presentation in class is really very much. You know, not just do as I say, but also do as I do. You know I create time to be curious and learn about just something that's going on in the news or the world around me. I take time to take care of myself mentally and physically, and I think having an opportunity to look at that as a teacher through a development pathway would be really fascinating.
Speaker 3:
The difficulty with it, just thinking out loud, is that to structure something like that could almost do it a disservice, because it's the thing that should almost be part and parcel of being a person. You know, it's who I am, these things that I enjoy. But I think there's a gap there because, to your point, a lot of professional development is very much. This is how to assess, this is how to teach, this is how to deliver curriculum, this is how to lead, this is how to hold difficult conversations, and so on, which is great because it's very purposeful to the role, but does it miss a huge chunk of what it means to be a teacher in front of that group of children day to day? I think it might, and so to have the opportunity to look at that would be great the opportunity to look at that would be great.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I like that because I think what happens is that schools feel an enormous responsibility to provide the professional development that they think will help to move teaching and learning forward, but sometimes just allowing the teachers the space and time to explore in other industries, in other fields, that type of thing, and in seeing that parallel and bringing it back into the classroom. Because, let's be frank, what we're preparing? We're not preparing students to become teachers necessarily. You know, on a general basis, some will become teachers, but we're preparing them to become everything. That's right.
Speaker 1:
And so for teachers to have that knowledge and that breadth of expertise, then they need to be exploratory in their professional learning as well, because that's how they'll be able to bring that richness back into the classroom. And so I am not very keen on overly prescriptive professional development time. There is a place for some of it to be very centered around teaching and learning, assessment that type of thing. But then I think equally, even cut in half, should be time left for teachers to really explore interest and variety and and to really go out there and see what's happening in industry and see what's happening in the world, because what they're bringing back is what the students need to go out with completely agree.
Speaker 3:
I mean, it boils down to who's the teacher that you remember from your own schooling. For me, and I suppose, I mean I just wonder who was your favorite teacher at school and why.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I mean, for me, I can think back to my teacher, who she was my teacher of Spanish, but she was also the wife of the local pastor, and so I knew her outside of school as well as in school, and I was absolutely fascinated by her, how she carried herself, how she spoke, she also preached, she also did community service, and so she was such a rounded person. I literally, I think I went back afterwards and spoke to her and told her she's the reason I studied linguistics at university, because she made me love languages, not because, yes, she taught me Spanish, but because of how she lived, and I just really loved how she found time for community service and how she. She was almost, like you know, an enigma. She was a lady and she was a teacher and she was a pastor's wife and you know. So all of those things, who was yours?
Speaker 3:
It's very similarly. I mean, she was one of my geography teachers and had a fascinating childhood herself being raised as she was growing up, having lived with a family, you know, in West Africa and moved back to the UK and kind of lived this life. That some of it she was willing to share and really opened. You know, I went to an all boys grammar school in South London, so you know our horizons weren't vast, you know it was very much kind of what we experienced ourselves.
Speaker 3:
But teachers like this geography teacher helped us open our eyes to the fact that the rest of the world was out there and what it was about and encouraged us to think, you know, more broadly, more liberally, more creatively around the kind of difference that we could make. And it was an amazing geography teacher. Clearly she is one of the reasons why I became a geography teacher myself. But what made a difference was that willingness to just invest time into maybe think a little bit differently, maybe look at this opportunity, maybe just consider an alternative point of view, and that that was profoundly valuable to me, and I know our friends that I'm still in touch with. But to the point of the question, it absolutely wasn't the person who had the best maths exercise books or could deliver that in that such a way, within really tight kind of guardrails.
Speaker 1:
The teacher that got us to think in a really, really interesting way yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking, and so I'm sort of on a little secret mission is to get more teachers to listen to podcasts as professional learning, more teachers to really go out and do research into just other areas and other fields, and to bring that richness back into the classroom, because I think that's where you bring in that level of, I would say, almost world view to the students.
Speaker 3:
I agree. You know we used to talk about cross-curricular learning a lot when it was a phase, you know, like that so much as in education, I suppose I think that's that. What you're getting at is that. But it doesn't have to be labeled. It doesn't have to be labelled, it doesn't have to be structured. You know, it'd be such a great opportunity, I'm sure, for children to create links with the teacher guiding them as a facilitator. Have you heard about this? Oh, by the way, that links with that and so on. It can be really exciting and help children be curious in a safe way.
Speaker 1:
Excellent. So we're bringing the podcast to a close, but we talked about less is more. We talked about bite size. We talked about chunking it. We talked about you know the place that whole school inset plays. We also talked about podcasts. So, people, if you're listening to this, please send this episode to everybody you know. Get us listening more to podcasts as teachers, for professional development. But as we close it out, matt, how can teachers? What are the first steps you think they should take in taking hold and personalising their own professional learning?
Speaker 3:
You know what I think hard to do, but great outcome is own it. Be really clear about what you, as a teacher, feel you need to work on. I think there's a great myth that, as a new teacher, you should be, or can become, wholly dependent on people that are more experienced than you. You know, within teaching hierarchies you can be very kind of based on a military kind of thing whether long you've served or given your rank, you must be better at things. It's not universally true, but as a teacher coming in with with new ideas or old ideas or just something creative, take control of it, be brave. And what does that mean in practice? It means if you've got an idea, give it a go. You know if you've developed the relationship with your class and they know what you're like and they they know that you're there for them and you try something new.
Speaker 3:
I remember the first time I tried an activity with an A-level group on plate tectonics and we were trying to map where volcanoes were, where earthquakes happened and some other characteristics of kind of natural disasters and events around that topic, and I was really, really worried because I thought, well, if this goes wrong, it's an hour wasted and there are only so many hours in an A you know that you can teach to, but, as it turned out, the the students went with it and they started to plop together. Oh, if that happens there and that happens there, then it must be that kind of plate boundary that we're talking about. But there isn't that there, so it must be something different. I thought, wow, the nature of the conversations we had afterwards were wholly different to what I would have planned otherwise, because it would have been a lot of me telling and then expecting answers back, and this was wholly different.
Speaker 3:
So I think, be brave and try something new and when it goes right, tell people about it. And if it goes a little bit awry, tell people about it and help start to unpick, because it's not the be all and end all. It really really isn't, and then in that manner, it can just become part and parcel of what you'd expect. Try something new, figure it out and then try again. I think the idea of being kind of handed lessons to deliver that can occur sometimes is just the opposite of what I'd advocate Brilliant.
Speaker 1:
Ah, that's a good place to end the pod.
Speaker 3:
Thank you so much, matt for being on the Teach Middle East podcast. Thank you so much as well, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2:
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle East podcast. Visit our website, teachmiddleeastcom and follow us on social media. The links are in the show notes.