George Kohlreiser, How Leaders can Overcome Conflict

How many of us believe conflict should be avoided at all costs? Our guest, George Kohlreiser, shares how openly facing conflict helps us progress through our most difficult challenges.

George Kohlrieser is an organizational and clinical psychologist, hostage negotiator, and international best-selling author. He is Distinguished Professor of Leadership and Organizational Behaviour at IMD Business School in Lausanne, Switzerland, and a consultant to a plethora of Fortune 500 companies around the world. Moreover, Prof. Kohlrieser is a regular speaker at international management and professional conferences around including the World Business Forum, the World Economic Forum, and the United Nations.

Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com

Transcript

Kerry Seed: 1:03

Thanks for tuning in. This week, we're wrapping up our series on conflict management with our guests George coal reserves. He has quite a resume. He's a psychologist, a hostage negotiator and an international best selling author. He's also a distinguished professor of leadership and organizational behavior at IMD business school in Switzerland, and a consultant to companies around the world. On top of all that, he's an incredible storyteller. I really think you'll enjoy this one. We begin each show with the voice of a young person to remind us of how we all started out. And this week, our friends, Rene and Vera talk about conflict and how it feels. Tell me about a time you were mad.

Unknown: 1:53

When Reagan were fighting, like what made you mad? I don't know. It's like kinda, he's being a little bit annoying. Okay, and what does anger feel like? It's feels kind of I feel bad all the time. And I just get angry. And it feels bad to agree. Who do you go to when you feel upset? God, and you would get?

Elizabeth Solomon: 2:25

And how does? How did those people help you?

Unknown: 2:29

They helped me good. They're nice. And I liked it. God watches over me. And I don't know why we're keep be dragging on Friday, get the center God. And I don't like Sunita God, or disobey.

Kerry Seed: 2:51

Thank you, Renee and Vera. And now on with the show.

Hanuman Goleman: 3:03

Welcome to first person plural, the motional intelligence and beyond. I'm hanuman Goleman.

Elizabeth Solomon: 3:09

I'm Elizabeth Solomon.

Daniel Goleman: 3:10

And I'm Daniel Goleman.

Elizabeth Solomon: 3:12

We've been talking about conflict management as we see it in systems and in our own lives.

Hanuman Goleman: 3:17

And today, we're going to delve into the Theory of Conflict Management with our guest, George Cole Rieser. George was a hostage negotiator with the Dayton Police Department. Before we start, I want you to know that some of his stories include graphic depictions of people in crisis, this content might be disturbing for some of you. So I encourage you to prepare yourself emotionally beforehand. Or if you think it might be too much, skip this one. And join us next time.

Elizabeth Solomon: 3:45

As you're probably gathering. George has a lot of wild stories. But I was really charmed by this one.

George Kohlrieser: 3:54

I traveled to Italy in the early 80s doing workshops, and I went down to the fish market early in the morning. And here were all their fishermen coming in with their catch. And they were cleaning those fish and it was a bloody smelly mess. But they were laughing. They enjoyed it. They also had a good glass of wine, aprons with your name what was around and I was just watching this. And they were looking at me. And I thought this was interesting. So I went down the next day. And lo and behold, they invited me to come in there I was with a glass of wine, a knife cleaning these fish, just loving it. And it was a bloody, smelly mess. Now I grew up on a farm so I knew what it is to clean a fish. But I never particularly enjoyed it till that point. And I thought, This is what conflict management is put the fish on the table, go through the bloody, smelly mess of cleaning it for the grade fish dinner at the end of the day. And how many teams how many leaders keep fish under the table the conflicts and it becomes toxic.

Elizabeth Solomon: 4:59

I think that simple story really gets at the heart of conflict management.

Hanuman Goleman: 5:03

And you really go into the Theory of Conflict Management in this interview, what are some key points we should listen for?

Daniel Goleman: 5:11

I think George is a master of conflict management. And one of the things that he's especially good at is making that connection to the other person which is over and above the particular conflict. But that's the platform that lets him start to repair things.

Elizabeth Solomon: 5:31

I think curiosity is at perhaps like the greatest source of conflict prevention or antidote to conflict, the greatest strategy and such a you know, we can cultivate curiosity about kind of the other side or the other person we can do that from the point that's early on. We can also keep conflict from escalating

Daniel Goleman: 5:49

or think empathy is really key here. George, as I said, as a master of finding that connection, he is a beautiful empathizer. And of course, there are three kinds of empathy. There's cognitive empathy, I know how you think about it. There's emotional empathy. I know how you're feeling. But there's a third time, which was really important here, which is I care about you, I'm concerned about you. And it's that kind of empathy that creates with George calls, actually, from Bowlby via Dr. Bennett, Goldman's book, emotional alchemy and mindless spring, which George credits actually talks about a secure base sense of being able to relax with the person that I feel safe here. And how important that is. And George and his work with leaders, for example, really encourages something explicitly credit star for which is the inner secure base, not only being with people who make you feel that way, but being able to create it inside yourself. And this secure base is a deeper kind of platform for connecting.

Elizabeth Solomon: 7:03

I love this piece around empathic concern, because it really ties back into this piece around shared values, right. And I think when we're coming at someone with a sense of empathic concern, and saying, like, I really want you to sort of have what you want and need, and I also want myself to have what I want and need in this. And I care for both of us in this situation. And so how do we find those kinds of those things that are mutually beneficial within the conflict or within the conversation?

Daniel Goleman: 7:31

us when you say curiosity, I'm hearing empathy, really caring to understand the other person?

Elizabeth Solomon: 7:37

Yeah. And also curious, you know, I think some of conflict is us, perhaps subconsciously narrowly thinking there's only one way forward, right? We're like, this is the way this is the thing. And I think curiosity is both about wanting to understand another person, but also about saying, what other ways forward could there be? And what do I need to do to sort of unravel myself from this idea that the only way to meet my needs or your needs is through this kind of one singular path or one one direction and widening the sphere to think about a different range of possibilities.

Daniel Goleman: 8:10

So you're saying Be flexible, be adaptable, be creative, and finding a range of possibilities that will be acceptable enough to both? The Win Win idea really has to do with finding a solution, which is satisfactory enough for each side, not what you wanted in the first place, but I can live with this.

Hanuman Goleman: 8:33

So with that in mind, let's listen to George coal research and his ideas about the Theory of Conflict Management.

Daniel Goleman: 8:41

I want to welcome to first person plural, my good dear friend, George Cole Reser. He's a psychologist, professor at IMD in Lausanne, Switzerland. He's been a police psychologist, we'll hear about that he started out as a hostage negotiator. And from that he developed the principles of the program he directs, which is on high performance leadership. It's now standing program for senior leaders. And George, welcome to the podcast.

George Kohlrieser: 9:11

Thank you, Dan. It's a pleasure to be here with you again.

Daniel Goleman: 9:14

And let's just start where you started out, which is when you were a clinical psychologist, somehow you got a job working with police to negotiate hostage situations, can you tell us about it. I was

George Kohlrieser: 9:29

trained as a mediator. That was my goal in becoming a clinical psychologist. So the focus was on how to handle disputes. And I had an opportunity to work for a local police department in Dayton, Ohio, and to enter into a domestic violence program that the government was offering because 35% of homicides were occurring in families. And the police had almost always been there before. So if we could get mediators in to talk to people, we can reduce that homicide rate. Well, in getting to know the police riding with them, and they were very paranoid about psychologists, they didn't like us very much in the beginning. I was part of writing with the lieutenant. And we got a call that there was a hostage taking at a local hospital.

Daniel Goleman: 10:16

What did you walk into what was the situation?

George Kohlrieser: 10:18

This was a psychotic man, basically, who had been stabbed by his ex wife after he kicked the door. indicies kids against a court order. He was holding a nurse hostage. He was screaming, I don't want to live I have nothing to live for. I'm going to kill everybody I can. So I arrived with them. And the unit had been secured. I was standing behind a lieutenant who had now become the incident commander, watching this with open eyes. And as he looked around to decide who he was going to ask to go into that room. Boom, because we couldn't use tear gas, we couldn't kick the door. And he turned around and looked right at my eyes and says, George, how would you like to do that? Whoa, talk about social pressure. All the police officers, they were looking out, okay, does he have it or not? Being a risk taker, I had to make that decision. If I don't go in, I don't think I could have continued to work because I lost all credibility. And at the same time, I felt curious. And I had the sense that this Lieutenant which he became a secure base to me, trusted me. So I got in and Sam was across the room and everything I was saying, was not working. He was just screaming and shouting, and then he cuts you to stroke. Not her juggler. But on the side, screaming she fell to the ground. My kids, my kids, my kids, that was the last thing that was on her mind. He stepped back sort of startled, I first had to manage her to get a bandaid on this cut this wound. And then he came around the table towards me now, in a nanosecond, I had to decide do I call the police end to restraining? Do I throw my body at his feet? Or do I talk in dialogue with him? And the answer was to talk and bond with him. He approaches me puts the scissors to my throat, never cuts my skin. But he's screaming, I'm gonna kill you everybody. I can again, nothing was working. And after about two minutes, I asked him a question, Sam, how do you want your children to remember you? He paused. Then he screamed out, I'll kill my children to I'm going to kill you. I have nothing to live for, et cetera, et cetera. He really went off the deep end even further. But he didn't push the scissors anymore. In fact, that was a good answer. Although it sounded not so good. Now we've started the dialogue. So I come back, Sam, we have to talk about your kids, how do you want them to remember you? And that was the start of the whole negotiation. He said, Well, I'll just kill myself. And then we're gonna have to think about it. And the transactions were what you want your kids to remember you as a murderer? Do you want them to remember you as a father who commit suicide, and he started to de escalate. And within 10 minutes, Sheila got out within 20 minutes, because he had been stabbed near his heart, we had to get him to another part of the hospital. He was willing to walk out with an agreement that first giving up the scissors and asking a question. And this is what hostage negotiators do. This is part of what message I really learned. You ask questions. It's not command and control leadership, saying what do you want to do with that scissors? You want to give it to me or throw it on the floor? He gave it to me, then do you want to be handcuffed in the front or in the back? And you want the police to come in three good questions. Which Dan, I'm sure you know, is that each time you give a question, and they respond, it empowers them, even if it's a no and empowers them. So that fortunately was the story. And he came out. And I did have the agreement in the negotiation, that I would go to the judge and plead his case, because he could probably go to prison, I would come to the prison and help in re uniting with his kids. And thirdly, I would follow up and go with to the kids and say he gave up because he loved you. He loved his kids. That was the key. But he was in grief.

Daniel Goleman: 14:37

So powerful Jordan, I'd like to unpack that. And I can't imagine anything more tense to bring a disagreement into the open, which you did, to find a solution or define a solution that everyone could endorse, which he did, which is astounding to me. And to understand his perspective to not just to see dismiss him as some psychotic guy, but he had a point of view, and to acknowledge the views and find an agreeable resolution. It's astounding. Those are the key steps of a classic conflict management.

George Kohlrieser: 15:12

It was one of four times I've been hostage. It was not the most dangerous. I faced someone with a gun who actually shot the gun. But Sam did not want to kill me. He could have put that scissors in my heart. He could have killed me, but he wanted something. And I knew that. That is how you have to be able to manage your mind's eye to see the person is not the problem, that there's another problem to be solved. I was dealing with Sam, the man, the man hurting to separate the person from the problem. And afterwards when I came out. I was so full of an Amiga. A hijack which you described. So Well Dan, I screamed, how dare you send me into that room, I need to talk to you before we debrief this, I really left him to have it, he just put his hand on my shoulder and said, George, I knew you could do it, he took most of the wind out of what I was saying, I kept coming back, but I didn't sign up for this, this is suicidal. And he said he was clever. But I gave you a choice. I asked you if you want, it was done so well as a secure base. And it changed the trajectory of my career. And that became a red thread in the remaining part of my conflict management work. And my leadership work here at IMD and around the world, of being able to deal with disputes using this whole idea of what hostage negotiators do to get their high rate of success.

Daniel Goleman: 16:43

And from that, you took home a lot of learning,

George Kohlrieser: 16:47

I learned that I could face an extreme situation and manage it. I had learned from sports figures, that you do what you know, and you know what to do. And I remember telling myself as I what am I going to do, telling myself, I know what to do, and I do what I know. And so I learned how not to be controlled by fear. Because I did feel fear. There was a point where I had an amygdala hijack, I thought I was going to be killed. But then I had to come back to be my own internal secure base, to be able to be an external secure base. And it was the person effect that really got to Sam, I think it was my caring attitude, and my willingness to take a risk that communicated to him that I really did care which I did. Here's a man who was grieving his children. That's why he went to the house. totally unbelievable childhood abuse and going from foster home to foster home and sexual abuse. And when he went to prison, I did become a kind of father to him to teach him. This is not what a man does. A man does not beat up their wife, a man does not go in and kick the door. And, and he became willing to listen to me and adapt his behavior. But it changed the whole trajectory of my career, because it was clearly a leadership activity. And words became the foundation of being able to deal with that.

Daniel Goleman: 18:19

But, George, you've gone on from there, and I'd like to hear your journey, how this informed the way you saw leadership, and other conflict situations that you have advised on since then, please tell us.

George Kohlrieser: 18:35

Here's the point, Dan, for leadership and emotional intelligence, you have to deal with the emotions. And you know this from all the great work you're doing with emotional intelligence, you have to be able to de escalate emotions, and many leaders get triggered. And what I did, and hostage negotiation is a fundamental leadership activity. You can't use command and control, you cannot tell the hostage taker come out, or we're going to send the SWAT team in, you'll get the hostages killed, you have to work with them, de escalate them, find the motivation. And well, here's what's interesting, it will work in 95% of the cases, as measured by the FBI and Interpol here in Europe. Isn't that amazing?

Daniel Goleman: 19:21

So one of the things you emphasize I'd love to hear about is how important it is to form a bond of trust in the beginning. Yeah,

George Kohlrieser: 19:30

trust is a fundamental commodity of leadership. And you don't have to like someone to bond to them. That's the big learning, you only need a common goal. So if a leader can establish a common goal, they can bond to an enemy to an adversary. And they turn that adversary or that enemy into An Ally through that bonding process. But it's goal driven. But the big thing is the leader has to manage their own fight flight reflex, their own reactive tendency to escalate emotions, what you call the self awareness, they have to be aware of the emotional escalation inside and be able to manage that.

Daniel Goleman: 20:14

You've called that being hostage to our own emotions. hostage at the table is your seminal book about this. What does that really mean? You saw it out in the open, I guess in hostage negotiation, but then you recognize something similar was going on with executives.

George Kohlrieser: 20:33

Very good point. Thank you, Dan. There's a thing to be a physical hostage, but you can also be a psychological hostage, and that is to a boss, to a colleague to an employee to a situation to a supplier and personal life to spouses. children, teachers, the range of what is possible to be a hostage to psychologically without a weapon is so prevalent, even this pandemic, many people felt like they were a hostage to the pandemic. It means powerlessness, it means you feel powerless, you can even be a hostage to yourself. That means that you are filled with anger or revenge or shame, the 1000s of internal states that hold you from being able to feel the full joy of life, see the beauty of life, see the the opportunities, and behind that blindness is always going to be loss or grief that holds you back. So this is coming out in many ways by the emotions and the emotional states. And part of that a building trust is to be a secure base. And secure base basically means someone or a goal or something that calms the brain. So that you see, not threat, but you see opportunity.

Daniel Goleman: 22:01

So what you're saying is that a leader becomes a safe container. For the feelings that need to be expressed. One thing you've told me over the years that I was always intrigued by was that often people in your leadership training programs end up in tears. Why Islam?

George Kohlrieser: 22:19

Right? We have a special way of approaching this this program has been going on since 2000 135 versions of it plus more in companies and so forth. And it has only one case, we don't use the case method of presenting leaders and then imitate them. The case is you and digging into who you are the foundations and following the person we both loved so much, Warren Bennis, who talked about the crucibles as building the character of a leader, how do we go back in the foundation and look for those crucibles, the pain points, and then deal with them. So we see so many leaders come in filled with pain that they're blind to, they don't realize it's a hidden grief. And so we create the safe haven, the safe container, generally within a group of 55. And then within small groups of five or six, to open up whatever that trauma may have been, or that crucible, and they grieve over something that may have happened years ago, and free themselves from being a hostage to that. So for many they've never cried. They never expressed with words what that pain is inside. And then it's so sad. We had three major suicides here in the last years in, in Switzerland, the CEO of Swisscom, who took a rope and killed himself after going through a terrible he was an entrepreneur, a vibrant love leader, but he got a new boss who held him like a lion in a cage. And he was going through a personal situation of loss with his spouse. And rather than reveal or express that grief, and build up and he would do physical activities, mountain biking, and he just took a rope and killed himself. Similar with the CFO of Zurich Financial, although his family was very much intact. And then the CEO of Zurich Financial, who felt guilty for over 18 months, he didn't protect his CFO took a rope and killed himself three examples of top leaders who had hidden grief, and they couldn't express it. This is why we have to be able to help leaders unravel the crucibles in their life.

Daniel Goleman: 24:45

So that's a kind of conflict management within Yeah, it's an internal conflict. But let me start back. I'd like to pick up on the thread of your work in conflict management. I know you've been doing as a consultant, for example, you mentioned the other day, some work you've done in Mongolia of all places. But could you tell us about a couple of instances where you actually used some of the principles of conflict management to help a company or an executive?

George Kohlrieser: 25:14

Yeah, thank you. By the way, that was over zoom. I did not actually deal with the pandemic. But here was the mining company who was in big trouble. They were about to be thrown out of the country. They had been thrown out of some other countries, and they kept selling the benefits. Were bringing 10,000 jobs. We're bringing all this but the politicians, the stakeholders were having pain points. They were upset and they kept demanding concessions, and the company made so many concessions they couldn't make any more. So what they couldn't do, Dan was what we call put the fish on the table, sit down and talk with the politicians, the investors, the stakeholders, the community, and hear them scream and yell at them, I mean, really be angry, and to listen to the pain points and keep the bond. And it was amazing. After three months of this, the whole situation started deescalate. And there will be triggers that would bring it up, but they wouldn't run away from the conflict. And so they engage them. And after six months, they reached one of the most magnificent deals for them. That was mutually benefit. We call it mutual gain.

Daniel Goleman: 26:28

Sounds like a kind of classic situation in the business world where people within the company convinced themselves that they're doing good in some way. And they try to sell that good, without empathizing, without them to the people who are going to be impacted. To hear well, what are they worried about? Is that right? Yeah,

George Kohlrieser: 26:49

that's the starting point, pain points, not selling the benefits. But what is the pain point that motivates that decision? And that's behavioral economics in action, already in 1992. With the behavioral economics model, they identified people are basically irrational decisions are made in which you know, through emotional intelligence, by emotions that drive those decisions, but the biggest drive is the loss, not the benefit. We do more things in decision making based on past loss, do you future loss, anticipated loss or present loss that influences the decision, even if you are the most rational person in the world, and this is what we have many leaders who are engineers and financial people, you know, for them, bonding is something you buy and sell. But they have to learn what empathy is and how to bond to people.

Daniel Goleman: 27:43

Exactly. I want to circle back, George, you used a phrase that may be puzzling to people that put the fish on the table, which comes from your experience in Sicily.

George Kohlrieser: 27:52

Yeah. You know, I traveled to Italy, in the early 80s, doing workshops, and I went down to the fish market early in the morning. And here were all their fishermen coming in with their catch. And they were cleaning those fish, and it was a bloody smelly mess. But they were laughing. They enjoyed it. They also had a good glass of wine, aprons with your name, what was around and I was just watching this, and they were looking at me. And I thought this was interesting. So I went down the next day. And lo and behold, they invited me to come in there I was with a glass of wine, a knife cleaning these fish, just loving it. And it was a bloody, smelly mess. Now I grew up on a farm so I knew what it is to clean a fish. But I never particularly enjoyed it till that point. And I thought, This is what conflict management is. Put the fish on the table, go through the bloody, smelly mess of cleaning it for the great fish dinner at the end of the day. And how many teams how many leaders keep fish under the table but complex and it becomes toxic? Can you give us an example of that? So for example, someone who feels disrespected, or someone who feels embarrassed, doesn't get a project, or in a merger and acquisition, how to be able to sit down and talk to them. How do you feel disrespected. And to hear the fish under the table of how they feel there was a bias implicit or explicit, or there is someone who is too aggressive. And they're too aggressive on team members. They don't come to meetings on time. So you have to sit down and you have to not sugarcoat it, not sugarcoat it, be able to put that fish on the table. The reality is you're too aggressive with team members, with clients that needs to be changed. Are you aware of that? No, I'm not aware of it. I've been born that way. That's who I am. I love those people, because you engage them, you help them understand there's another way to get to success. And they can change their behavior if you put that fish on the table. But what we learned from hostage negotiation, it's always by choice. You can't force someone to change. You have to be able to hear the pain points, and then invite by choice. And this is why we know command and control leadership. And you have it in your article leadership that gets results. That whole call received the whole pay setting. It doesn't really motivate people because it's too much command and control. It takes away bonding and takes away choice.

Daniel Goleman: 30:32

One of the things that I heard recently from a friend of mine who assesses top level executives, a global company, she said every C suite executive I've met has the achievement drive very strongly that competence, but the ones that people like to work for and don't hate working for also have empathy.

George Kohlrieser: 30:54

It's so clear, it's so clear, people need to feel cared about. And the research is over and over by Gallup and others, that engagement is connected to feeling cared about, Gallup actually uses that word. And they connected to empathy. Your boss has to care about you. But here's the secret, how to be 100%, caring, and 100% daring. That's a secure base leadership, we found this in, in our research with over 1000 executives, that they were able to be both caring, 100% and daring. 100%.

Daniel Goleman: 31:32

What do you mean by daring, caring is clear, but daring. But daring means

George Kohlrieser: 31:36

that you take them out of their comfort zone, you give them challenging projects, you ask them to do different things, you give them an opportunity to learn new skills, new, new things that they wouldn't ordinarily do. So they are daring themselves to try something different. And when people feel challenged, they're going to be more motivated not to challenge. But being able to have within a certain range of competencies, the ability to learn that any talent that you develop, means you have to be able to dare yourself, whether it's a new language of sport, or whatever it might be.

Daniel Goleman: 32:14

So is this related to innovation, for example? Absolutely.

George Kohlrieser: 32:18

Because innovation is going to be risk taking daring is risk taking. One of the big failures of leaders is as they move up, they often become too risk avoided, they lose the appetite for risk taking, and we need risk taking. And we have leaders who are too nice, we're sort of following a research path here that nice is not the way to lead. Kindness is kindness and respect is the foundation. But you know, being nice is a kind of lie. You don't use sugarcoat it, and you don't really say the truth, as opposed to being kind.

Daniel Goleman: 32:56

So kindness, the way you're using it. And I agree with you, by the way, sounds like you wouldn't hesitate to raise a conflict that you detect going on. So walk us through the steps that someone might take in a team or in a leadership position. When you sense there is a simmering conflict. And then what,

George Kohlrieser: 33:18

okay, so if you're going to do it on a team basis, and Google found this with psychological safety, the need to be able to share the talking amount of time, do it with emotional intelligence and respect. So you would put whatever the issue is the problem. For example, we just had a case where someone wanted a project, and they didn't get that project, you didn't have a chance to tell them a before they they went home one evening, and they found out at the coffee machine the next morning. The reason was they didn't hold people accountable enough. So this was done by latterly, the person comes in very angry, I didn't get this project, I found out the coffee machine, I want to resign, you're terrible boss, I trusted you. And now I don't trust you. So the boss has to be able to manage that and start the dialogue over what is this person upset about both the coffee machine and not getting the project? So where do you want to start giving choice? Well, I want to know why to get the project, good. Reward the concession, let the coffee machine stand over to the side. First of all, expressing empathy that you would be upset to arise a boss would be upset if I found out at the coffee machine. But then you say truthfully, the issue is you don't hold people accountable. You're making progress. But you have to be able in this project to really hold people accountable. Then you ask the question, do you agree with that? Or do you disagree? And then you go from there. And whatever the behavior is, you want to be able to express it. So the leader, and Warren Bennis always said this, and I'm sure you probably heard him, the leader has a right to define reality just a little more than everybody else. But you want to reality that the group can agree to a consensus. Because if you argue about what the problem is, it's never going to get solved. But you have to make sure you've listened to every perception that was his point. Listen to every procession, in the military has this actually developed the most I mean, the military, in many ways does encourage emotional intelligence now does encourage psychological safety. And if you're on a Navy SEAL team or that SEAL team, they have to come to quick consensus. And they're able to do that by a leadership style that allows people to say What they think but then we come together and agree, if there is a issue that's blocking that, you have to honestly put it on the table and not sugarcoat it.

Daniel Goleman: 36:00

So this is interesting because it speaks to something people have to do all the time, with their parents, with kids or leaders with their direct reports. And that is give performance feedback. And it's interesting to me that you say don't sugarcoat it. On the other hand, you want to keep the connection, you want to keep the bond. So how do you manage that?

George Kohlrieser: 36:23

Well, if they want to be a high performer, and they want to be able to develop their talents, you always have to go through pain. I don't care if it's learning a language, a musical instrument, becoming a doctor in hospital, becoming a police officer, whatever you're learning as a talent, you have to be able to go through and practice doing it and you're going to fail, and you get better each time. And the best way to do that is to get feedback you need, according to the research, practicing the 10,000 hours, practicing correctly, and having a teacher or a secure base, who gives you honest feedback. Musical instruments, for example, learning a musical instrument as a child, if you have a secure base teacher, you're probably going to stick with that musical instrument. Most kids stop because they don't have a teacher who's there making the pain of practicing beneficial, seeing the benefit. So high performers, ambition is connected to being able to teach your brain how to go through pain for a better result, not just the immediate gratification of no pain, the brain hates pain, very clear, the brain hates pain. But you rewire your brain to go through the pain to get to a better outcome. But high performers want pain, high performers want to know the truth. How can I improve? How can I be better. And that brings in that whole style of coaching that you talk about in your article on leadership that gets results, the leader who takes his moment to help someone understand how to be better how to bring out the best in them. But that takes a caring attitude.

Daniel Goleman: 38:14

So you don't just say what the person is doing wrong. But you also help them see what they can do. That could be right. Oh, yeah,

George Kohlrieser: 38:22

it's to benefit them. And I know you're working a lot now with meaning and purpose, which is so powerful. I mean, it is so important to know the person what motivates them? What meaning or purpose? What is their goal? Do they want career advancement? Do they want a salary increase and external motivation? Or are they looking for something internal, really meaning and purpose, and you tie it together? Whatever the change of behavior is demanded to help them get to that, assuming they want success? What kind of success do they want, I can help you be more successful. If you will speak up in a meeting, if you will, even if you're an introvert, still be able to express take your place for women to be able to deal with conflict in a stronger way, stand up and take their space. If someone is treating others with disrespect, that's a problem. You're talking to people with aggression with too much aggression. You're you're talking with people disrespectfully. And so it's put in the positive context of how it fits into their meaning and purpose.

Daniel Goleman: 39:33

So in other words, you deliver the painful information, but you do it by framing it in terms of this is going to help

George Kohlrieser: 39:41

you. Perfect, that's a that's a perfect paraphrase. You probably know how many leaders don't know how to paraphrase. They complain about not being able to listen, but they can't paraphrase what they just heard. Or they say I'm good at listening. But they can't paraphrase and say what was said to them.

Daniel Goleman: 39:59

And the idea of paraphrasing is that you're repeating back to the person, what you want to stand them to have said, and so what you're saying is that one of the first steps or key steps to managing these conflicts, is to listen and to let the other person understand what you think they said, and then what

George Kohlrieser: 40:18

and then you accept it. Accept it. You don't have to agree. This is a big mindset change. People who feel rejected because they disagree with what said. So I can listen to any kind of garbage. I can listen to perceptions that are filled with conspiracy theories. I don't have to agree. But if I want to build upon I have to understand where it's coming from. And then at some point, express the disagreement with respect and then you do it In a mutual way, and we live in a world band that's increasingly divisive. Look at the confrontations mass on airplanes, people who refuse to be vaccinated are on one side or another political right and left. I mean, Never have we have I seen in my lifetime, such aggressive behavior, even at the Oscars, the whole story of Will Smith.

Daniel Goleman: 41:19

So George, you're the expert on conflict management, what do you advise in these us in them conflicts?

George Kohlrieser: 41:27

Well, first of all, Cooperation means I want to build a bond, don't create an enemy. And when you have an enemy or an adversary, build a link, train yourself to do it, you almost need training to do this. I mean, unless you had a grandmother or grandfather, parents, when you grew up, who was good at this, I was fortunate I grew up on a farm in Ohio. So my father was a great negotiator, he could talk to the Amish over in Indiana and, and buy chickens, he ran a poultry farm. And so I saw this over and over again, how he could talk to people who would get very upset and very aggressive. So I already had a little bit of a foundation before I turned to this professionally. So what has to happen is you have to have the mindset. I want to get along with everybody. Oh, boy that provokes a reaction. No, I don't want to get along with everybody. Well, who don't you want to get along with? And we see the tribal isation in the brain? This is my tribe. This is that tribe? So will you get along with everybody? No, no, let's be realistic. But you have to make it very difficult for them. And if you show interest or curiosity, they will generally create a bond with you. And I had a very powerful learning experience in my training. As a psychologist of going to Marion federal penitentiary for a therapeutic community with lifers. They were having a therapeutic community. And we lived with them for five days. Well, that's a whole story in itself. But I was assigned a particular prisoner who had eaten another person's heart. He was a cannibal. And my professor, Dr. rancor, Ella, wonderful Italian, he thought it was good for me to and I said, I can't do this. I cannot talk to the cannibal. I just won't do it. He very commonly talked to me when to know why he was good at conflict management. And he said, What if you could learn something? What if you could use this personally and professionally? So I agreed. And when I walked in and first met this guy, he was across the room. And I was just sort of paralyzed? He had the first transaction. Do you know what he said to me? Are you afraid I'm going to eat your heart? To the point. I sort of didn't know what to say. But I said, Well, are you? And he said no, no, no. And we became personal friends. Through that process. I learned a lot from him. And he was someone who was deeply lonely, abused as a child. And he thought eating another person's heart would Nicky less lonely that he would bond with them? It was a strange. It's like the Dahmer story of putting bodies in a preservative by his bed. Remember the Dahmer story?

Daniel Goleman: 44:31

I hear you very strongly recommending emotional bonding as a first step. But I'm a little puzzled as to what's next. And managing conflict. For example, the all too common situation these days that you point to where their leaves us in them divides. How can we start to mend that?

George Kohlrieser: 44:51

I think the next step then is to make sure that you don't make the person the problem, you have to separate the person from the problem. And then you have to know what you want. Why? Why are you talking to them?

Daniel Goleman: 45:03

Can you explain how to separate a person from a problem? Okay,

George Kohlrieser: 45:07

so if you got a person with five problems, they're too aggressive. They don't respect other people. They dominate a meeting, they may be five different things. But they are not the problem. The moment you make them the problem, you will become a psychological hostage. So you separate out the problems.

Daniel Goleman: 45:28

Making them the problem might mean, you dismiss them. He's like that. That means he and problem are one of the same.

George Kohlrieser: 45:36

He's just a troublemaker. He's just crazy. He's always going to fight whatever we want.

Daniel Goleman: 45:43

Instead of saying, he's a person who does X, Y, or Z.

George Kohlrieser: 45:49

That's it. Actually, that's a great paraphrase. Dan,

Daniel Goleman: 45:52

I just want to be sure we understand. That's Carl

George Kohlrieser: 45:55

Rogers in action. So separate person from time and know what you want. What is your goal, what your desire, your interest, or the fish or the problem, then know what the other person wants? I think it's important to start with yourself, first of all, to know why you are there. What is the purpose? What is the meaning of having this conversation? If I want to train myself, and I talked to a homeless person? Or someone who's very aggressive on the street? Why would I want to approach them and talk to them? Well, I'm desiring to learn how to talk to a very aggressive person, understand someone who is on the street living on the street? And what is their knee, what would they like from me, and then you do this through dialogue. And then ultimately, you find some solution based on a common goal. Ultimately, in work situations, the leader reaching a common goal of why are we going to bond, we don't have to like one another, that's important, we can disagree. And we have to not let that disagreement get in the way of a bond. So I can disagree with my leader, but I don't let it interfere with the bonding, I would do something different. But I'm willing to make a concession because that's what you believe is right, or that's what the team believes is right. And we come to some agreement in that consensus of where we're going to go.

Daniel Goleman: 47:27

So what you're saying is that a win win solution isn't necessarily your favorite solution, but it's good enough,

George Kohlrieser: 47:35

it's good enough to match that goal. I think that there's a grief reaction when the other person doesn't change enough. Knowing that they're doing their best, many people are trying to do their best, but doing their best to not interfere with other team members. They may just be quiet, or be afraid to speak up. But we're going to help them speak up. And they have to speak up if they want to be part of that meeting, to modify that behavior, but that I can accept them for the way they are. And demanding change or asking for change is a very delicate process. Now, here's what I also learned very clearly. And I know you know this, people do not naturally resist change. They resist the pain of change, and the fear of the unknown. So when you are a secure base, and you're able to help them feel protected, and they don't feel the fear, or they don't feel the pain, or the pain is recognized or understood, they will seek that change and be willing to go forward. people every day, seek adventure, seek new activities, change jobs, do all kinds of things that involve pain, running a marathon, during an Ironman, because they see the benefit of that activity, and they're willing

Daniel Goleman: 48:57

to change. You know, Viktor Frankl who wrote Man's Search for Meaning after he got out of German concentration camps he'd been in for four years. He liked quote, a line from Nietzsche. If you have a wider live, you can manage almost anyhow, about dealing with pain because you see a deeper purpose for it.

George Kohlrieser: 49:18

Yeah. Edith Edgar, who's 92 years old group went through Auschwitz, 13 years old, 14 years old, who wrote a book called The choices. Her mentor was Viktor Frankl. And she says, You can't change the past. But you can change your perception in the future, how you interpreted, she considered being an ashram, it's a gift. It taught her more about the joy of life than anything else. That's Viktor Frankl in action.

Daniel Goleman: 49:45

On that wonderful note, I'm going to thank you very much for having joined us on first person, plural. And I look forward to the next time we meet and talk. I hope it'll be

George Kohlrieser: 49:55

sooner rather than later than that. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you.

Hanuman Goleman: 50:08

Thanks for listening to our interview with George Cole research. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends.

Elizabeth Solomon: 50:15

Before we go, it's time for Ask Dan.

Hanuman Goleman: 50:23

Have you ever wanted to ask Dan Goleman anything about emotional intelligence, mindfulness meditation or leadership or maybe purpose or life in general?

Elizabeth Solomon: 50:33

If you've got questions, Dan has answers. Submit your question via voicemail at Keystep media.com/ask. Dan, your question could be selected and featured on an upcoming episode.

Kerry Seed: 50:48

What's the difference between them? Rational intelligence and IQ.

Daniel Goleman: 50:52

The difference is really important. Our IQ, which refers basically to our cognitive abilities, technical skills, doesn't change much through life, it might be based on something as simple as how quickly your brain can process and master new information. That's one theory. Emotional Intelligence, on the other hand, is learned and learnable. And it has to do with an entirely different skill set, how we manage ourselves, and how we manage our relationships, how we interact with people, that's very different from IQ, someone who's very smart, IQ wise, can be not so good at emotional intelligence. And it turns out that, for example, when you think about a profession, being a computer programmer, or being a lawyer, being a doctor, IQ skills are very important to get into the game. They're what's called thresholds. But once you're in the game, you're competing with people who are about as smart as you are. That's where IQ falls away is a predictor of who's going to be outstanding, who will be a leader who will be the best performer and emotional intelligence takes over there was a study done, for example of engineers, where they're asked to rate each other on how they do as engineers, and it turned out their rating on effectiveness as engineers had nothing to do with their IQ, very highly related to their emotional intelligence. Can you persuade people can you listen, can you communicate? Can you handle your own emotions, all of those things make you outstanding, and they have little or nothing to do with your IQ. They have everything to do with emotional intelligence.

Kerry Seed: 52:55

And that's our show. Special thanks to Rene and Vera, whose voices you heard at the top of the show and to our guest, George coal reserves. You can find more about George the books he's written and the courses he teaches at George coal reserve.com and at KLA dot Swiss. We also have the links in the show notes on our website, first person plural.com. While you're there, you can check out guest BIOS transcripts and resources mentioned in today's episode. You can also follow us on Instagram at keyset media. If you enjoyed our discussion with George colorizer. Check out some of our past interviews. Our series about conflict management includes this episode, and the episodes with Aaron Wolf and Karen Ziggler. None of this would be possible without our incredible team. Our hosts are Daniel Goleman, Hanuman Goleman and Elizabeth Solomon. Bryant Johnson creates the beautiful art you see with each episode. Our audio editor is Michelle Zipkin. Serena Cardin does marketing Our music is by Amber O'Hara and ghosts beats and I'm curious seed. This podcast is sponsored by Keystep media, your source for personal and professional development materials focused on mindfulness, leadership and emotional intelligence. Next time, we'll discuss the pandemic's effect on children's emotional balance with New York Times correspondent Claire Kane Miller. Until then, take care of yourself and we'll talk soon