Sister Act

We all have blind spots about ourselves. Today's story is about a group of siblings who shared a similar blind spot: their anonymous sperm donor. The ten of them grew up with questions that were hard to answer:
 
What’s your dad like?
Do you look more like your mom or your dad?
Do you have siblings?
Are you going to be gay because your parents are?

After half-a-lifetime exploring, creating, falling down and getting up, they discovered each other through DNA registries. They were surprised by what they learned and how it made them feel.

Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com

Transcript

Elizabeth Solomon: 0:50

Hi my name is Elizabeth Solomon and you are listening to first person plural emotional intelligence and beyond. Today we will be talking about the very foundation of emotional intelligence, self awareness. There are many ways throughout our lifetime that we cultivate self awareness. And the truth is, we all have blind spots. Today's story is about a group of siblings who share a similar blind spot, and that is their sperm donor. This is the story of a group of biological siblings who found each other in adulthood, long after their identities and sense of self had already become established. It's a story about how their self awareness expanded, being in one another's presence, what they came to understand about themselves, that they could only understand in the context of knowing one another, and the donor that they came from. Katie Silva was born to a lesbian couple in the 80s. This is a time when it was really hard for same sex couples to find a sperm donor. In fact, homosexuality had only recently come out of the DSM as a psychological disorder. Katie's mother's found a doctor willing to inseminate them. But Katie grew up knowing nothing about her donor, until she was contacted through 23andme. By Well, her biological sister,

Katie Silver: 2:55

my understanding was that it was a sperm donor, and they knew that they were donating to a lesbian couple. And that's, he didn't want to be involved in our lives, and they didn't know his identity. So I just had always thought I would never find out who he was. And then when Laura contacted me via 23, and me saying we share a surprising amount of DNA. So, you know, when she presented Hey, are you interested in meeting someone or talking to someone you may be related to? I was like, Yeah, I didn't really expect to get anything out of it, or feel any more complete. But I really wanted to know more about the people I'm related to by DNA, and then finding that this whole group of us, surprisingly, did make me feel like a part of something. And I have like a sense of pride. It's interesting. And some of the, in the people that I'm related to, it's fun to know what they're doing and have such a sense of fondness. Even though some of them I really don't even know very well.

Elizabeth Solomon: 4:01

I met these siblings through my partner, Glenn bass. GWEN And I have been together for six years. And it was about two years into our relationship, that she found this large collection of biological siblings. As someone who's an only child, it was really poignant. To watch Gwen come to know, her biological sisters and one brother. Things that she thought that she understood about herself or knew about herself, started to shift and change. Questions that she had grown up with? Who are your parents? Where do you come from? What's your medical history? They started to be answered. And for me, it was an interesting look at what's nature. And what's nurture.

Unknown: 4:58

Hi, everyone. Good morning. Good morning. This is

Elizabeth Solomon: 5:05

my first time facilitating a podcast interview with this many people. So I'm just going to put that on the table because it's gonna be interesting to see how it goes. We're going to do our best here. I'm going to ask some really simple questions. So I'm just going to do this popcorn style. So just forgotten your name,

Unknown: 5:21

how old you are, where you reside currently,

Elizabeth Solomon: 5:25

and where you grew up, Gwen, why don't you kick us off?

Unknown: 5:27

My name is Gwen. I am 40 years old. I was born in Arbor, Michigan, and I live in Massachusetts. My like passing it to some before. Okay, Liz, Kate, you're next on my list. I had to think a minute about my age. I think I'm 37. So Liz case let's I was 37. I currently live in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and I grew up in Michigan. I'll go because I'm also 37. I'm Liz mess for 37. I was born in Ann Arbor, but I grew up in the bay area and I'm currently in Portland, Oregon. Okay, I'll go Hi, everyone. My name is Laura Khalil. I'm 42. I'm based in Metro Detroit. And I grew up in Metro Detroit, and I will pop corn to Sean. I am the youngest of the group here. My name is Sean Murray calvess. I am 36 years old young. And I was raised in Novi, Michigan, and currently reside in North

Elizabeth Solomon: 6:27

Philly. Let's just start by orienting our listeners. When did you all learn about each other? And I know that answer is going to be a little bit different for each of you. And Glenn, I'm going to kick it to you again, just to

Unknown: 6:37

start us off. Okay, I think that was like a little later to the party than some of you I, my parents had were in touch with another one of our siblings and send me a DNA test that I like failed to get results from multiple times I like did multiple rounds of trying to get through the ancestry thing. But in the process of doing that, I had heard that there was this group of people who had all been inseminated a doctor Cantor's office and did some Facebook stalking of all of you and was like just kind of a resemblance. And so once I got my results, it was clear that like, I was also a member of the group. And actually remember, I was in an airport in Baltimore. And I was just coming back from a conference and and Lynette and I had just connected on, I don't know, its history. And I remember her being like, Hey, do you want to have contact with these people and just like feeling that conflict of like, I've already figured out who I am as like what my life is about. And maybe like, they all look really cool and interesting, but like, maybe just seeing their pictures is enough, like maybe I don't actually need to, like get in touch. So I think that, for me was like, kind of an interesting, pivotal point, and ultimately, obviously decided to do and you all were gracious enough to communicate on WhatsApp, because I was like the Android user, in the group. So thank you for that. Anyway. So that's my memory of it. Liz,

Elizabeth Solomon: 8:01

how about you? When did you find out about all of these siblings that you had and where were you? And what were some of the first thoughts that went through your

Unknown: 8:08

head? So I had been told my whole life that there was likely some siblings out there something that Dr. Taylor had said to my mom, along the lines of all of the donors that he used, were chosen because they had already had healthy babies. So I knew that there was a really good chance that at some point, if I had taken 23andme, or ancestry that I was going to find somebody and I figured there was a decent chance it was going to be somebody in the same group of families, but my mom was affiliated with an arbor. So I finally took 23. And me, I think it was 2017 or 2018. And the first person I matched with with Anlin. And I was like, alright, well, I recognize that name. That's not a surprise. And then I saw Laura's name. And I thought, I don't know Laura. Kay. So that's somebody new and I just process that moment for a little bit. I guess I was initially shocked that and Lynn and I were related, because I feel like we looked so different that I was just like, wow, that's really wild. And genetics are interesting. You know, I feel like there are all kinds of archetypes within our siblings, like when and Katie McKee look like twin sweet was Kay and I look really similar. Laura looks like kind of both archetypes. Sean is probably lives K lizards. We all have these similarities. So once I saw Laura's name and a process, I think I reached out to her and I was like, hey, it looks like we're related Alexa, corsets. And I think that was news to her. She had already connected with Anlin. And I think that was the first explosion. And then I came in and knocked down some more walls. And as she's processing the fact that she has two half sisters, I said, Hey, there's probably going to be a bunch more of us just reading how this is going. You should know that. There's probably more of us out there that this isn't isolated. So I had no idea exactly how many of us there was going to end up being but that was a process and then I think for a while people were trickling in it was like once a month a new sibling would pop up. And it can't remember who was after Laura for me if that was when or Liz or Shawn but as soon as I saw one's name it piqued trumping so I think when was the baby that my mom had met in Ann Arbor that connected her to it Dr. Taylor. So if my mom hadn't met baby Gwen, she would never have known that was an option for her. I knew there was like a Glenn out there. So I hadn't known when that as part of that group, but she had moved to Massachusetts, but that sort of vibed with my experience, so that's amazing. When was like the baby, when was this an initiating. So my mom said, she was perfect. She was like, I wanted to meet this baby, because I knew she was a donor baby. And she came out of a lesbian. And she was like, I had to put eyeballs on her, make sure she had 10 fingers 10 toes, and she's baby Glen was the most beautiful baby I've ever seen. And Matt sealed the deal. Thanks, glad to have you my life. Liz Kay, I'm

Elizabeth Solomon: 11:42

gonna pass it over to you just tell us a little bit about when you found out you had so many siblings where you were what that first point of contact was like, I might

Unknown: 11:50

start a little bit earlier, because I feel like my story is slightly different from a lot of you, and that my mom actually passed away when I was one. So I was raised by my aunt and uncle who became my parents. But I was raised outside of Ann Arbor, and then very quickly disconnected from the initial group. So I did not give a lot of thought to this side of my life at all, I grew up with a mom and a dad adopted. And I don't know, I just really didn't spend a lot of time thinking about my donor and my origins. So I initially did 23andme, because I have dark hair and olive skin. And my mom's side is Scandinavian. So everybody has very white skin, and very light hair. And I just wanted to know what those origins were for me. And I thought in the back of my head, okay, wonder if maybe there might be a sibling out there or something, but I didn't really think much about it. So then, when I did 23andme, and the first connection that popped up was someone also named was born the same year as me from the same town as me with a very similar story. To me, that was a real holy shit moment of my life, maybe the biggest holy shit moment. And at first I was Oh, my God, like, what am I going to do with this? I just need a minute. And then I was like, I don't need a minute. I need to know everything. Like right now. So I dove in pretty quickly. I think for me, not having any first degree relatives growing up. I've never had anybody that looks like me, like growing up with my cousins and my aunts, uncles, I, nobody looks like me. So that was a real shock, the physical similarities. And then other personality similarities to follow. Were also really interesting. What was that thought

Elizabeth Solomon: 13:42

that was going through your head when you said, I need a minute? And then you said, Actually, I

Unknown: 13:45

need to dive right in. It's a real disruption to, to what you know, and what your life has always been to think, wow, there's this whole other thing that I had not really spent much time thinking about. So that for me, it was just a need to take a step back, think about my life and what it was and think about if I had the space and bandwidth to dive into this whole other aspect. But I had to I just realized I really wanted to know who these people are. And my curiosity was much stronger than my kind of apprehension. Thank you. Shawn. Please share with us your discovery through your siblings. Yeah, I'd say I think it goes back to 2016. I had taken a DNA test. My mom's sister is an ancestry. A Holic I guess she is obsessed with building our family tree, even if we're not really related to some people. So like, she's always on ancestry.com, like always pulling stuff together. And my mom is the account holder. And so I think back in like 2014, my mom bought my whole family, the DNA test kits, and I took it back in 2014, and then didn't have a direct match with Dana Lieberman until 2016. And it was right around like Fourth of July, my aunt said to me, Hey, somebody messaged you on Ancestry and there's a picture of her and she looks just like you. And it's it didn't say sibling, but it says like close relative. So I responded back to Dana and her message and told her my story about how I knew I was artificially inseminated. I grew up in metro Detroit area, and it looks like her really close siblings. She was only a month younger than me. And so it was very clear like when you dig into the DNA results and everything like that, that we were done. Definitely, siblings, I had shared more DNA with her than I did my aunt on my mom's side. And I met her. In 2018. I believe I flew out to LA and met her. And it was somewhat surreal. I knew my whole life that I was artificially inseminated. So it wasn't a shock to me that there were other siblings out there. But just the closer son age, growing up, close in proximity, she went to Michigan State, and we had one mutual friend. That was very bizarre feeling. And then I want to say it was a couple of years later, my sister, Dina metric, Laura, and 23, and me. And then I took the test for 23andme. And then Laura was the connecting piece to all of the other girls. The whole thing is very fascinating. I was raised as an only child and just didn't really have expectations about having half siblings, by it has been a very fun, interesting and like, you learn more about yourself through these other siblings that like our love of Cracklin, oat bran and like weird stuff, and like, the way that I talk I've heard is similar to when Liz Mezrich talks. And it's like we weren't raised around each other. But we have the same inflection in our voice. And so that and also having just like a group that you can confide in, and they went through, maybe not a similar experience, or have that same dialogue that you can converse with them. That is something that was truly special for me, because I went my whole life not being honest about who I was to people outside of my household. And it took me a long time to really accept who I was. And then once I did that, and then found all of the siblings, it was like more reassurance that like, this is the way God has meant for my life to be. And it all made sense at that point. So it's been great. Thank you, Laura, you,

Elizabeth Solomon: 18:06

I keep seeing you as the hub based on what everyone else has shared a major connection point for all the siblings, and I just love to hear your story

Unknown: 18:14

while you found out. I am the Big Sister, I take my role very seriously. It's, um, so I am the only sibling that to date. There could be others that appear. But to date, I'm only one who didn't know that their parents had used a sperm donor and I'm, I grew up with a dad, who I thought was my dad. He is my dad, but not my biological father. So I did 23andme actually in 2013. Because I'd always been very curious about my ancestry not actually relatives, but more my heritage because I grew up in a Middle Eastern community. And for those who are looking at a photo of me, I am extremely white orders of magnitude paler than both of my parents. And so I always found that really strange that I never looked like anyone on my dad's side. And people would always say, Oh, you look like your mom. So anyway, I did 23andme in 2013. And the results at that point, were still pretty inaccurate, like in terms of ethnicity. So they had actually classified me as Italian. And they didn't even pick up any of my middle eastern heritage from my mom's side. So I was like, Oh, this thing's bullshit. They don't even understand. Like, they didn't, they missed that entirely. So I just dismissed it. But I would get these emails. And they would be like, Oh, you have more relatives. And I would go and look at the relative finder. And I would see some Middle Eastern last names. And then I would see like all these like American or Western last names that really, I was like, Who are these people? What if this is totally off? And then in 2018, it was in the spring of 2018. I received a message from someone on 23andme And it just said, Hey, Laura, we share a lot of DNA. Do you want to talk and that was a message from Amron who was the first half sister that I discovered and it was like really upsetting. I mean, you know to it's like we're even really hard reliving? That shock shocker. Yes, it was really tough to think your family is your think you know where you're from. You think you'd know who If your parents aren't, and it's like, the bot just falls under the floor. And listening to everyone talk right now has actually been like bringing me back to that time. And remember it How upsetting it was, I didn't understand how am I gonna play for thick relief. And so like I was really confused. And I kept thinking, oh my god, big 10 was to head on to hair, which is like, really upsetting to even consider. And then she said they used a sperm donor. And it was like, my dad was a sperm donor, and really trying to figure out like, how my dad had this kid, and then eventually realize, oh, that's why it'll look like my dad, it took me a minute to get to that point. And when I met, or when I learned Amblin, I was kinda like, obviously, my parents didn't want me to know. And so I didn't want to talk about it with them. And in fact, I had a really hard time talking about it with anyone. And I remember I just thought, Okay, we're just, like, just, we're not going to address this, we're not going to deal with this. And then it was a day before my birthday, I think, or one or two days before my birthday, my 38th birthday. When Liz popped up. And I remember so clearly, I was in like a Meijer, which is one of our big grocery stores here. And I have this message and I was, oh, my, there's another wallet. And I was like I just had pleat breakdown in the store, I just, I thought something that maybe was like a fluke, now had like a pattern. When it was really within the course of that year of 2018, I think, where we all found one another. But it was very, as you can probably hear until it was very hard for me it was almost like an existential identity crisis. But it's also been a great gift to meet these amazing women and man, we do have a brother, we can't forget about him, but to meet them, and to really feel honestly blessed with having a new family growing up as an only child. But it didn't come easily. I was very I will say with Amarin. When I discovered her, I was very suspicious. I wondered what she wanted from me, I remember that feeling very clearly thinking, what does this woman want from me? Does she want money? Does she like, what does she want? And yeah, it took a minute, it took a minute, but ultimately, it's been pretty cool. Thank you so much.

Elizabeth Solomon: 23:29

And it brings up such a critical piece, which is the stories that we're told about ourselves, either by our families of origin or by the world at large and the systems we live in how deeply they shape our identity. And that in any way that we discover those stories are untrue, how rattling and shaking that can be in it. Some of you have touched on this. But I want to ask the question, again of what was the story that you were told growing up about where you came from? And I'll just invite anyone to chime in.

Unknown: 23:57

I can I just I don't, I don't need to be the person who always goes first reading, but I just as the thing as you were talking, Laura, and as you were talking to Liz, okay. Like I'd actually as you were talking Shawn, and as you were typing away that like there is this really, really weird thing when you've organized every fiber of your identity into like this, like neat stack. And we were all older when we found each other. So it's not like we were like adolescents and we didn't know we were we like many of us have families had significant relationships, or were in them. Were like established professionals. And to go from being like, Oh, this is who I am. This is the story. I'm going to tell the world about who I am. These are all the places where I've maybe had to hide aspects of my identity because of the way that I was raised. And like the people I was raised by and what I did or didn't know about my donor, like I've said it all into a box like I'm standing on it. I know how this works. I know who I am. And that had that moment, Liz Kay, like you were saying, Oh, wait, okay, like we're pulling out a Jenga piece. And I'm not really sure what's going to happen and like, How was everything going to be reorganized? And I think the process that you're articulating, were like, while my experience was different, I can really relate to that feeling of like, oh, every you know, I didn't even consider that there would be siblings, that wasn't a thing. In my mind. There was like this into like, answer your question. There was this donor that like my parents and had told me had been like curated to be this like athletic Jewish doctor that that's what they ordered. That's what they thought they got. And I just was like an athlete. My mom wasn't I was like, darker skinned than she was. I like there were all these things about me that was like, okay, yeah, that lines up. Okay, totally up Jewish doctor. Great, okay. And I'll just figure out how to use that story at different times of my life when I need to hide the fact that my parents are gay. Like, I'll be like, I'm gonna my Jewish doctor died. Yeah, like he exists. Somewhere out there. Like I will just rely on that story. And at other times, like you're like, I don't know. There's like a piece I think about you lose cat, like, the amount of unknown that you lived with anyway, by being raised by your non biological parents, and there is a level of like not knowing that even when you don't know, they're just not having the donor, I felt like, okay, like, you have to be okay with an unknown. And so like, I was working with what I had, it made sense of what I didn't know. And I was like, This is how it's gonna go. And so I just feel like, while we all experienced that in different ways, like so much of what you've said, each of you, like, really resonates in terms of like, my own experience of all of it. Yeah, cuz as I had said, like, my, when I was very little, you know, going into kindergarten, and it's Father's Day, oh, we're gonna all make a card, or we're going to do this craft for dads and I would be going by don't have a dad. And so then my mom explained to me, at a very young age, you do have a dad, it's impossible for you to not have a dad, but he's just not in your life, the way that other dads are in other kids lives. And that's okay. But we want to be cautious about who we tell, because of the current climate, you know, with people being cruel, and there still are cool people out there. And my mom was a single mom. And so she had to go to work every day. And she, she couldn't lose her job. And she had to take care of me. And so that was her way of protecting me. And having that weight on your shoulders for so long. really affected who I appreciated myself to be and affected my relationship with my mom until I got to the other side of it and realize she was doing this to protect herself to protect me to keep me safe. And it's okay. She was dreaming that she cried. But I did have a ton of emotional baggage with it, where I couldn't even tell people I was dating about who I was. And it, it took a very long time to get to the point where I'm like, This is who I am, and I am accepting it. And if you don't accept who I am, and who what the decisions that my mom made for her, and for me, because she wanted to have a family, then you don't deserve to be in my life. And I think it takes a certain level of emotional intelligence and maturity and strength to get there. But I knew my whole life that I couldn't, that I was artificially inseminated and couldn't tell people, because it may or may not hurt our family. Also, can we just say that, back in the era, when all of these children were conceived, it was actually very dangerous. For a single woman to go through this procedure, most doctors would not allow for it to happen, they would outright reject you. And so like, their moms were really revolutionary for what they did, and the risks that all of them took to have kids. I mean, I know it's so normal today. But 3540 years ago, this was not normal. And this was the testing back then either. AIDS testing was not a thing. And then my mom said she felt so humiliated having to go to the health clinic to get tested, because this was part of the pandemic of AIDS was starting her epidemic, whatever. And so she was like I was pregnant. I was single I was in this doctor's office, they're testing me for AIDS. Just it was scary. I don't know if this is true, because my mom exaggerates, but it was illegal in Michigan, or doctors to inseminate single women because the concept of a woman having a child without married partner, or a man in the picture was like, oh, yeah, we can't have that happening. So what Dr. Taylor was doing was he supposedly was like, oh, no, this is like a research or a pilot program, or he had some way where he went through the university that was attached to his clinic, and got around this law or guideline, whatever it was, it said women single women can't be inseminated to do this, which is why it was kind of hard when my mom heard about when she was like, What do you mean that this lesbian had a baby? That's not possible? And I was like, No, but you have to go to this die was like an underground insemination tax for these women in Ann Arbor in other places, but single women. Yeah, I think it's really powerful hearing everybody's response to this. Because I think that I really just compartmentalize the change. And I didn't even realize how profound it was. Until like, two years. later, I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I knew that there was a chance I had siblings. And then later on, people would say, Oh, I think I'm gonna get 23andme for Christmas. And I'd be like, Wait, are you emotionally for what you might find? They were like, oh, yeah, I just want to find out your fun German. And I'd be like, but you might not find that. And I feel like when was saying, I knew who I was, I was an adult, I didn't need anything from anybody. But and if I had found out if I had found my siblings, if I had looked on an everybody was in jail, I would have felt differently, it would have said something about my genetics that maybe I would have been really upset by, you know, if somebody comes knocking on your door, and they're like, Hey, we have a cold case. And it turns out, you're related to the murderer, I would have been rocked in a different way. And the fact that I got to connect with this group of people that are universally awesome, and that we share these traits that are that is not murder, is really cool. But it does. Just, it's like an earthquake that hits your life, your personality, even the people that are close to you in your life, like my husband was like, Oh, my looking at my siblings. He's like, there's more of you. And thinking about this just larger network of people that I'm now connected to it. I don't think that anybody who says they went through that, and they were not profoundly affected whether or not it was a surprise or not, it's I just don't believe that's possible. It's too much. I have to agree that I am so thankful that I found you guys at this age are few years younger, because yeah, you're already way more established. If I was, in my 20s, I don't know how this would have affected me or earlier, I can't even imagine. But this you brought up and I forgot about that feeling of being afraid. I'd be related to murders. I remember very early on, Laura sent me a message, I think in 23, and me, that said something in a really politically correct way that was like, everybody is successful in their own right. And I was like, Oh, we know there's no pedophile, so that's great, it's gonna be fine. Yeah, it's just like, their successes don't necessarily reflect on you. Their failures wouldn't either. But you can, especially growing up as an only child, if I had found out my blood siblings were all like drug addicts who struggled immensely, it would make me look at definitely my children and say, like, Hey, we got to, you know, we have to make sure that we're protecting you from something within our genetics that maybe I wasn't susceptible to, but you may be, and instead, I'm like, I can just sit back and relax. Because these genes, they don't quit, you're

Elizabeth Solomon: 33:48

all bringing up two really important things. One is the how we develop self awareness and relationship to those around us, or how we understand ourselves is rooted within a certain community or a certain family or a certain demographic, whatever that be. And then also, what it is to not know aspects of your genetic history, like your susceptibility to disease, etc, and to become aware of that. And I would love to just hear from you as you think about the way that this experience has shaped understandings of yourself everything from Oh, the way I laugh is the way someone else laughs to Oh, actually, like I do have these genetic dispositions or, Oh, things you thought, might have been nurture, but are actually nature that were incredibly surprising to you just curious to hear what comes up.

Unknown: 34:37

I'll say something about that. So when we finally discovered who the sperm donor why it was interesting to learn about him, um, he's deceased, but I was able to speak with one of his relatives who told me a little bit about him, and it's sort of filled in some areas, at least for me, where maybe there was like a missing puzzle piece. So I come from a very traditional Middle Eastern household. And I think as all the siblings can tell you, I can be a little eccentric, I definitely do not share that with either of my parents. And learning about him and learning, right. I was told the story of him like where he had a motorcycle, and he would drive it down the street, standing on the seat like a madman. And I was like, Oh, that totally makes sense. That's my sperm donor daddy. Okay, I got finally I've found something that I can latch on to because I would do crazy shit not I wouldn't do a motorcycle, but I do crazy shit all the time. I didn't get that from my parents. And so I think that that sort of added some flavor. But at the same time, we also learn some of the medical history that I think is really important for all of the siblings to have known. And frankly, it's disturbing that we didn't know it. Because it could affect all of us. I'm curious thinking

Elizabeth Solomon: 36:12

about that. I mean, I certainly know from knowing Gwen, that she has a high tolerance for risk. But I'm curious to hear from the rest of you. Is that something that you share?

Unknown: 36:21

I don't know that I would say. So I don't want to jump out of a plane or climb up Half Dome. But I would frame it for me more as a sense of spontaneity and maybe boldness, or I'm just really not that afraid of failing, which is definitely that knee in the ass plenty of times, because there were times I should have been afraid of failing. So not necessarily like an adrenaline junkie, but more Yeah, I can do that. And I think to a certain extent, we do share that just this not overconfidence, but I feel like security in our own abilities, maybe or just this. Yeah, I'm not afraid to try that. So I don't really know how you'd categorize that. But I definitely don't think that I saw that in my mom growing up. And it was interesting what Shawn was saying, and Glenn, about what the donor was framed as in their families. And I would ask my mom, like about my dad, and again, in the 80s, it would throw people off and they're like, who's your dad? I'm like, I don't have a dad. And they're like, that's impossible. And be like, I don't know. I don't know who he is, yes, I understand the biology. But I can't tell you any more than that. And the way that people would fill in their own ideas, but what that meant, though, your mom probably got pregnant and was embarrassed. And I was like, that certainly happened. But I'd asked my mom, like, what do you think I get from my dad, and she would say, I don't have big boobs, so probably that and blonde hair, and I'd be like, alright, but that was really the only things that she would commit to, that I possibly could have gotten from my dad with blonde hair and big boobs, and I'm shorter than she is. So it was really, and that was it and everything else. Like all the other traits, I must have that from her. So I really had no idea. Other than that, she was convinced he was a doctor, this incredibly handsome, blonde, big boobs doctor just with the most intelligence cream of the crop, because that's what she asked for. And then finding out from everybody else, oh, Dana's mom was like, want him to be Jewish. And Dr. Taylor was like, You got it bid and other people just asking for these things. And they were like, and of course, looking back, I'm like, You guys, this was the 80s, there was no catalog. It was whoever was there. And that's fine. But let's just be realistic that there, the illusion of choice was just that you were imagining these things. And he was telling you what you wanted to hear. Because, and frankly, I don't think that if he had said, Listen, I have no idea who the donors gonna be, you're gonna ovulate, I'm gonna have you come in and you're gonna get what you get, they probably would have still committed to the plan. Like I don't think it would have changed anybody's mind. It just would have made them have different feelings about the process. So they got to walk away feeling like they got everything that they wanted. And we got to grow up thinking that we have these amazing fathers who were genetic marvels. And that's that and then finding out it's this guy who stands on a motorcycle who works in the auto industry is like, yeah, no, actually, that makes a lot more sense. Because here I am thinking I'm not nice mate, not reaching my father's standards as a doctor. And I'm like, now that tracks that that makes more sense. As you're talking and I'm like thinking too, about what you said Sean like this, when he'd like say to people, like I don't have it, and they're like, that's not a thing. It was like sci fi. Like, it wasn't just oh, it was like this new way. Like it was like a technological experiment. And so I don't even like let's Kate you said something earlier about being like, I didn't even think about having a dad like I like it wasn't it was like not it was like this part of what had made our moms able to have babies. It wasn't like a guy. Yes, he had these characteristics that we could like talk about when we were like my hands do not look like your hands. But like, it was sci fi. He was like not a human. And so something that I think a lot about and think about in terms of like common traits is like our mothers with these like crazy righteous people and even whether or not they were partnered, or and partnered when they chose to have us. All of us had really crazy righteous parents who were willing to like take a risk and do something that was like technologically ahead of the times. And so I had always sort of like attributed that like, hurry cool. Like I'm kind of up for anything. I can roll with whatever or to the fact that was the lineage I knew about. And so it has for me, but like really interesting to be like, oh, there's this whole other side to things. And like, for me, like, I found all of you, at the same time as like, my mom was like passing. And so there was this really interesting, like awareness of my maternal lineage and like the loss of that and being like, okay, like, who am I without a mom and then being like, whoa, like, I also have this whole dad's side and like, who am I with that? And like, How can I choose to be myself in this different way, that's like, also reflected in all of you like in the streets that clearly came from him. To dude had to be really funny, if we're talking about nature versus nurture, like, he had to be a really funny guy. I'm gonna think about this donor with big boobs walking around forever. Now, Liz, so thank you for that. I also wanted to say, I'm thinking a lot about your stories, and this idea of needing to hide that you had a donor when you were younger, or feeling embarrassed, or whatever. And I had some of that, for sure. But I was safeguarded to a certain degree by my mom dying, because anyone who was willing to then say, well, why are you adopted? And then if I were to say, when my mom died, to ask that other question, like, you had to be really bold to be like, what a push dad. So I think to a certain degree like that safeguard me a little bit from having to hide that aspect or feeling embarrassed about that aspect. And then I also had an adoptive father. So that was different for me, I am curious, and

Elizabeth Solomon: 42:24

this has come through a little bit in what you've all shared. But as you made this discovery about your biological father, and about one another, how the other relationships in your life, particularly your familial relationships, that people who actually parented you, any siblings that you may have had growing up, how are they impacted, or how did this understanding impact the rest of your family system,

Unknown: 42:49

I interrupted can go on was were I just want to make sure Sean has the floor if she from when I interrupted, I was just gonna say I am like nothing like my mom, when it comes to my mom is very reserved. And so I am completely the opposite, I would jump out of a plane, I would stand on a motorcycle, I love adventure, my husband just had the opportunity to move Jeremy, I'm like, let's go. He's so apprehensive about it. So that was the only thing I was gonna say it was it like, I definitely get the thrill seeking from my paternal side. And I don't want to comment on like a familial relationships, it was just me and my mom, for the most part, she would date here and there. And then she has one sibling, her sister and my cousins, which we don't really talk about how I was conceived and brought into this world, they know that my mom has never been married and somehow got pregnant, but I don't. And they probably have found out through social media and things that I posted and about my siblings. So you know, of this story, but we just don't talk about it. I wanted to say one more thing, too about adventure. I feel like adventure is a theme that we're all talking about. And I feel the same way living, maybe not just adventure, I feel like all of us strive to live a very full life. And yeah, I think that's my theme throughout. I don't think I'm risky, especially as I get older, real life is scary enough. But I do think I try really hard to live a full life. So I think that my mom once it was clear who the donor was. And I think she was very supportive of finding my siblings, and just was right there along for the ride and just very excited what was going on. But I think things a little bit shifted for her once the donor was actually found. And she realized it wasn't a doctor and that she had been kind of I don't know, if I would say Dr. Taylor lied to her, she would probably say that I want to put words in her mouth. But she has said she felt a little bit duped. And again, my pushback to that is would you have said no. And she's now not. But I think her grappling with that own process of oh, this visual that I had, of who your parentage was growing up, and it's not that. But I think she's been able to come to terms with it. And for the most part, people in my family have been really excited and really accepting and like I said, my husband and my kids are they know all about it. And I show them pictures and they're they just think it's super cool. And I think especially for my kids who are growing up in 2022 and not the 98 when I say things like like my six year old will be like oh mom was like born in a doctor's office and like well not quite but like conceived. You need a man and a woman to have a baby and he's no you don't just need a doctor and So their concept of what a family is and how babies are made and who is your relation and also like having people in your family who are adopted siblings who are not blood related to you, but that doesn't matter. They're also your family that's been really interesting to watch and sort of them asking me questions about my siblings and about their children and their families. I think it's been a positive from my side, except for the feelings that my mom has had. But I think she's mostly come to terms with that. Laura, how I mean, I would love to hear from you how, I mean, I know that it wasn't the same process, as most of us to hear this news and go to our parents with it. And so I just want to give you space and to share your perspective. Yeah, thanks. It took several months for me to work up the courage to talk to them. So I think I learned about em when Megan March. And then, like, instead, it was like, just trying to like, not make it a thing. And then Liz and popped up and I was like, Oh, wait, there's more. And then I think it was in September, when I finally did speak with them. And by that point, we have discovered four or five of us, and it just felt like a, like the snowball effect. You can't ignore this. And also, I'm a storyteller at heart. So for me, as this is happening, one of the ways that I dealt with it is I'm like, This is an incredible story. I have to tell the story. How could I not tell people the story. And so it became like, they're gonna find out, I might as well tell them. And so when I sat down with my mom and dad, I said, you know, I just want to tell you some really surprising news. And I said, I have a half sister, I figured I'd start with one, like, not just like, put everyone on, I was like, I bet I gotta have sister. And my mom looked at me, and she said, Oh. And I just sat through a sperm donor. And it was like, in that moment, it really felt like watching a veil drop. Like, maybe she'd forgotten. or something I don't know. And she just said, oh, you know? And I said, yeah, no. And they did not have much to say about it. I think it was extremely embarrassing for my dad, to not be able to have kids, especially within their community, I think it was very, he felt a lot of shame around it. So he didn't have much to say they even to this day, they don't really, we never talk about it there. My mom is certainly happy to know that everyone exists and that I have siblings, but she's not. They're not inquisitive. They're not particularly interested. Because like, I think from their perspective, they're like, you have a family. Cool. Like, you've got this other thing going on. Great. And we're your parents, and that's the end of the story. So I think there is this like inherent feeling of like, threat, maybe all of our parents or people raise this word. Like we like for me, I know, I contended with that feeling. Like I remember showing my mom a picture of the arm and like, see, like, he looks so much like me. And she was like that can't be some Jewish doctor. And I was like, Okay, I got nothing like that, like I was telling you about, like, straight my face. He's got my face. And so, so I do feel like there was like a little bit of like, No, I'm a single mom, I'm doing this thing. We're the science experiment. That's what we're gonna stick to. And I felt like protective also of like, I was raised with two parents, like, you know, another, and it wasn't called a mom back then, like another parent who was a woman, my mom was with at the time I was conceived. And I had a brother, who, like I was raised with who was her child from a previous marriage to men. And I felt Oh, I hope that they don't feel like because I'm pursuing these relationships. And I was like, pretty jazzed about it. They feel like they're less than to me now. Or like, I'm gonna cast them aside. And I definitely I had some of those conversations with them. But I was really aware of it. And I think for me as a parent, and only as you talked about what it's like for your kids, like, my kids are adopted, and my experience is appearance of being like, Oh, you got this biological family out there. But like you have this family that's raising you like how do you negotiate like contact versus like, you're going to be in the family that you're being raised in? Or like how do you deal with biological sibling relationships and things like that, like my mind really opened having had that experience myself and being like, oh, like, I don't feel any less a part of the family I was raised by. I just feel like oh, this is super cool. Like I can know myself a little bit better. Because I mean, he's really awesome people and y'all are talking awesome. So it's just like nice to like, be like these people are my relatives. Like how fun is that? And I feel like we bought like many of us have had a chance to get to know each other a little bit and eat and hang out and like, I'm sure that's gonna continue. And so like that, for me has been like augmentative to my life as opposed to like taking me out of the other person's life. But I think I felt really protective of those parts. Liz Kay, I'm

Elizabeth Solomon: 51:03

curious for you, if your aunt and uncle hurt if it had any impact on your relationship with

Unknown: 51:07

them, I would not say it had any impact on our relationship. But it is not something that we talk about much at all. They I consider that my mom and dad like they're my parents. And I think having adopted me and having the story that I have, I think they worked really hard to try and make me feel like I was one of them and incorporate me fully into their existing families. So I do think breaking that protection is something that they don't necessarily want to do. I don't want to speak for them. But I think it's just something we don't really talk about, I think they they keep that safety around her relationship. And this is something that is mine, separate

Elizabeth Solomon: 51:49

of them. I would love to have you all share the story of how you actually found who your donor was, and whoever wants to share some of the details of that along with. And you just talked about this a little bit when but when you first saw his picture, and just knowing that when we have a visual for someone how real it becomes, I would love to have you bring us into that moment.

Unknown: 52:16

I feel like Laura has to take this one. Because she was the lead investigator. It was so cool to watch her dig into this and take it on as part of her story. I think I don't want to speak for you, Laura. I think that this was a really big project that she undertook. And it was so fantastic to support her in that but watch her kind of dig in and seeing the picture whether it's like, oh, it's when it's a guy when Yeah, there was like, no doubt in my mind. When I saw that picture. I was like that dude bothered, you can't get genetics aside like you are the daddy. But Laura, I would love to have you take that one. Yeah, I'm happy to talk about it. So we like we had speculated for gosh, I don't know, two years at that point about could this be what was the common feature that we all share facial physical feature we all shared? What was that missing link. And like I said, I'm just like a dog with a bone when it comes to finding investigating a story. And so I had been clued into a group on Facebook for there's a whole community, there's probably several communities, for people that are called N P E, which stands for not parent expected. And these are places where individuals such as myself, who thinks they have a certain parent and realize they don't can go and get support. Because that is like very, as you heard earlier, it's very upsetting. And so I joined one of these groups. And it was extremely hard to get into the group I had to be interviewed, but they're very serious people. I'd be interviewed by this group that like phone calls or something Facebook messages, what's your story, tell us everything. And then they let me in. And then they said we have another group, they had many groups, you can join up sub branches of this. So one of the groups was called an angel group. And it was where and DNA angels are people who are extremely interested in genealogy. And they are the angels are dedicated to volunteering their time to help individuals discover their biological parents, essentially. So I had to go through an application process to get into the angel group I got into the angels, then the angels needed my they needed so much information for me. To move forward with my request. I had to put my DNA all over the internet. So I can this brilliance can be cloned, just if anyone would like it. It's out there for the world. I had to put it on multiple sites. I had to tell them our story. I had to do the best to construct our heritage or lineage as far as we knew, which was very limited, obviously. And then they went into all of those websites that I put my DNA on and they searched and they built our family tree for us. And in that process of building the family tree, which correct me if I'm wrong, I think it took like, under a week. They were just all in it. They discovered Ross and we He could not find him on our own because the closest we could find was a second cousin. But by putting my DNA on all these sites, they weren't actually able to find a first cousin. And that was what enabled them to crack the case. Essentially, that's how we learned. That's how we learned about Ross. And I remember the first time I saw a photo, I'm like, I can't be related to that guy looked nothing like him. But when looks like a spitting image, it's just at and Shawn as well. It's really wild. And yeah, so that's what happened. I also wanted to say like, I feel like there was this simultaneous process of like, when was K was was saying something about as soon as I needed to know I needed to know everything there was like this offline that like precipitated that and went on during it like constant Nancy drilling. Okay, let me pull up all the alumni photos from 1975. Like the class of 84. There's this guy of our jawline. Okay, that guy totally has our eyes. Let's go check it out. Let's see what's going on. And there was like, all these pieces. And I feel like it was just like, it was really interesting to like, be on the project with all of you guys. And I think Laura, you obviously like really brought her home in this amazing way by like finding those folks. And we were like, okay, cool, like, great. We got there. But it was also just like a fun, like, process to just be in that with you all and be like, okay, like, how much does it matter? Yeah. We looked at so many generic white guys that Harriman we had initially thought, oh, this person, because we have really, there's not one we don't have one knows, or, I mean, there are shared characteristics, obviously. But we're like, maybe he's a real generic working die. And the dominant genetics were pulled from our mom's side. And we're just looking at these people like me, me, they could be the dad, but they're just dies. And then when we got Ross's picture, and similar to Laura, I didn't think he looks like me until I really put our pictures all in a lineup. And I was like, okay, then I see it just like when I look at Glenn tonight together, and you look at us, like right there, you can see that we're related, but it was looking at him and being like, yes, that is a family member of hours. But it was a fun process to go through yearbooks. And I think Liz was digging into and a lot of classmates stuff. That was fun. What other characteristics

Elizabeth Solomon: 58:26

do you feel like you all share? Just curious just to go around, I almost wanted to do a little round robin, where I just shout it out things like favorite cereal, and just had you guys like chime in with those little details. But I'm curious over the past, gosh, what, three, four years now of video chatting. Some of you have met in person. I've been blessed enough to meet some of you in person. What are the things that you've noticed? You're like, oh, yeah, this is like common denominator. We talked about risk riskiness or an appetite for a full life. But

Unknown: 58:56

what else? I know that at least Gwen and I, maybe everyone else does it to have a common habit of when we're relaxed and speaking. Doing this. Yeah,

Elizabeth Solomon: 59:12

putting your hand over your head. I

Unknown: 59:13

should. Thank you. I should explain what I'm doing for the audio. Yeah, we have a common feature putting her hand over her head while we talk. And I think when I realized that we weren't several of us, if not all of us, we're doing that. So that one really comes out. I just made a photo montage of it from Google from our Marcopolo chats and everything like that one Twitter another. Does anybody else leave with their hands near their face? I totally unconscious. But a lot of times when I wake up, I'm like, smushed up. And I was born with my hand. Like right up here to like my hand came out first. Sorry, mom. Like I was asking a question. So yeah, I was like born like this womb. So there is a lot of, but I think we share a sense of humor. I think having being able to laugh at ourselves and situations in our lives is very important. Yeah, I think the boldness, the Cracklin. Oat Bran. I think most of us are coffee drinkers too. I don't Sean Are you a coffee drinker? Sean? I can't remember him. Definitely a coffee drinker. And I do have my arm over my head quite often. I'm getting out. Yeah, we'll accent a call. I 10 really easily which I didn't get from my parents, my mom so I think I really get a sunburn. Usually it'll just be like a deep tan if anything. So I don't know if we share that but I think too about some of the conversations, just like knowing some of the things that each of us have been through in the last, however many, four years since we met and connected some of this longer. And there is like a really remarkable ability to light like, I think we all do a little bit of this, oh, yeah, things are hard, and then you just make it through. But what I actually take a minute to think about what any one of you has been through in the last four years, or what I've been through the last four years in terms of like life changes, or turmoil or challenges, or like unexpected things that have happened that have been hard. It's nobody's everybody's about water in this way that like, is really remarkable to me, like, I don't know that I know, for other people who put life or five other people in my life who could do the same thing. And that, to me feels like this really sweet connection to that paternal lineage and to all of you. There's definitely a resiliency in there that we all share. I also, and I don't know if this is a product of starting with Hi, we have the same sperm donor. But I do feel like a lot of us are able to be honest and go to a certain level of depth with others that a lot of other people maybe wouldn't do as quickly as we do. Very bad at small talk, I want to know what makes you tick pretty quickly. And I know we're really good at doing that amongst ourselves. Again, maybe because of where we're starting from. But I also feel like that's something that that we all share more broadly.

Elizabeth Solomon: 1:02:25

It's interesting, I remember being struck by reading Ross's obituary, and some of the character traits that came out through his obituary that felt like I could really, certainly see them and Gwen and see them and all of you as well. And just this piece of being someone who is emotionally intelligent, wants to connect with human beings is really centered on building relationships. And it seems obvious, that's a character strength that has led you all to each other. Right? There could have been a reality in which you said, Great, we know who each other are. And now that we know who each other are, it's going to end here, and we're not actually going to stay connected for all this time and go as deep as we have. And I'm wondering, does that feel like a surprise to any of you to find yourselves here? X amount of years later, doing a podcast episode together, being in conversation together? Like did you in your wildest dreams? Did you expect to have an actual relationship with your unknown biological siblings?

Unknown: 1:03:19

I never thought about that. But I think that we do share probably like a spiritual connection or an open to this deeper meaning and different ways. I think, for all of us that Shawn touched on it earlier that she really felt like this was where God had put her. And I do feel like there are things that have happened amongst this group where I'm like, yeah, there's just there is a thread that I can't quite explain. You know, I'm in lizards baby book from her bio mom. There's a picture of us like holding hands as infants. And Katie McKee was a friend of mine growing up, and I was obsessed with her for some unknown reason, I just always felt extremely connected to this other person, to the point where I tracked her down after high school, and we lived together and she was a bridesmaid in my wedding, and then come to find out, she's my sister. And I was like we had done. I knew that from like, day one. Now it's just official and meeting Laura, and remeeting, Gwen, and Shawn. And just, I think it is surprising, but it's also not surprising that we're still talking because I think, I don't know, there's just something there. And I don't know how each of us would describe that. But I do think that it's hard for me personally, to deny that it feels like it was always meant to come out, or these people were always meant to cross paths with me. And I'm learning from them. And we share these things. And yeah, it does feel like there was some fate, I guess, designed in that process. Let's say that we're only half of the siblings on this call. And so like, I totally agree with what Liz is saying. And I think the reason why the group of people on this call have gotten close to one another is because like we've wanted to, we've put in the work of building friendships with one another and camaraderie and joking around. I will say one thing really cool about this group is we don't judge anyone else for participating more or less. It's totally cool. That's okay. Nope, I don't think anyone harbors bad feelings for that. We're all just pretty understanding. I was struck by that when we found Russ and all hopped on that Zoom call. And ostensibly we were in a space like all hearing that our dad had died. You know what I mean? We found him and found out that he was no longer alive at the same moment. And just the level of like respect that everyone had for everyone else's process. In that moment, hey, like, here's where I am, like really honest, here's where I am, I totally can imagine that you might not be in the same place. And that's okay. Here's how I want to proceed. How do you do breathing? How can we all protect each other in the context of wanting to make sure that everybody gets to experience this and processes in whatever way they need to? Like that, to me stood out so significantly as like, almost like emblematic of like, what I appreciate about the connection that we seem to share is like that, what you're talking about more of like, do you like I totally respect that, and I'm like here and Mobin. And I might not always be, and I know that you'll be cool with that, too. I just wanted to say like, I never expected, in my wildest dreams to have such in depth, strong relationships with my potential half siblings. And so that is super surprising, but also really fulfilling. And I am grateful for the experience now that I'm on the other side of it, going through it as like your teenage years and in your 20s. And you're trying to figure out who you are. And all that was hard. But now, I'm just so grateful and appreciative. And as master was saying, like, there was definitely divine intervention to all of this. And it's just super cool. I love you guys. I do feel like I want to mention that Gwen was saying we all processed, cutting out who Ross was, and that he was dead. That hit me hard, personally finding out that he was dead like that. shut me for a while. But knowing that there are siblings that do not know about us that were raised by Ross, and I did say earlier that I don't believe that's going to stay secret forever. But we as a group did discuss, what do we do with this information there? Mom, I don't want to get too into detail. But there it was, we're trying to be respectful of the boundaries that their family has. And even though I'm really curious to find out more information, we as a group decided that obviously, there's no rules where we can't control each other's behavior and actions. And some of us feel more strongly about having them included, and others feel like it's not our place. But we all have respected that boundary. And nobody has broken the seal on that, even though it feels like hey, it's out there. So it's floating around. But none of us have gone forward with trying to establish that. And I think that says a lot about us as well that even though we may land differently on what we think the outcome is going to be that we as a group were like, Yeah, we're going to respect that boundary, we're going to let that play out the way that it's supposed to play out naturally.

Elizabeth Solomon: 1:08:53

So in our last minute here, we'll take a minute and look at each other and I just curious looking at each other today. What would you say that your siblings mean to you?

Unknown: 1:09:04

Just popcorn style. This is my sister had. Yeah, you guys are my family that I never knew I had. camaraderie. And people who I think innately understand me. safe landing is a safe space, it's it's family. I feel like I can trust all of you and feel like you can trust me. I feel like there's nothing I could say to this group that they wouldn't be in my corner and when support me and even if it was done, Boris, I have failed money. And that's really nice.

Elizabeth Solomon: 1:09:55

And I will investigate the shit out of that case, if I think you've been wrongly

Unknown: 1:09:58

accused. The United States government has no idea what they're missing out on by not capturing this group of individuals and our powers. I think like the what we have recorded on Marco Polo, we have to trust each other. There's real trust there given the things we told each other and that they're on record. I am

Elizabeth Solomon: 1:10:22

totally teary eyed. I was even getting teary eyed before doing this interview just thinking about you all so I'm so grateful. That's it for today's episode of first person plural, and millions of people out there and a similar situation to the siblings. This story raises a question for all of us. How important is it To know where and who we come from, what's nature? What's nurture? And what are the all the ways that we build self awareness across our lifespan. If you want to hear more about this story, I recommend picking up a copy of Gwen's book immaculate misconception due to come out in May of 2023. You can find the link for that in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in.

Kerry Seed: 1:11:33

That's it from us. Special thanks to our guests the Sister Act, Gwen bass, Sean calvess. Laura Khalil, Elizabeth caseless. Elizabeth mess Berg and Katie silver. Be sure to check out our show notes for a transcript of today's show and more about when basses book immaculate misconception you can find those notes on our website first person plural.com That's first person plural.com. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Keystep media. Elizabeth Solomon hosted today's episode, Brian Johnson is our artist in residence, Serena Kardon does marketing. Our music is by goats beats and I am Carrie seed. This podcast is sponsored by Keystep media, your source for personal and professional development materials focused on mindfulness leadership and emotional intelligence. Take care and we'll talk soon