Step Nine: Developing Empathy with Dr. Barret Michalec

This episode is step nine in the 10-Step Toolkit to Having Critical Conversations featuring Barret Michalec, director of the Center for Advancing Interprofessional Practice, Education and Research (CAIPER), and an associate professor in the Edson College of Nursing and Health Innovation. Michalec’s research examines humility, empathy, and belonging, particularly within the healthcare field. 

 In this episode, we:

• discuss the difference between empathy and sympathy
• explore how to build emotional resilience
• define the concept of emotional contagion
• provide practical exercises for building empathy
  
  

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Timestamps:

02:57 Understanding Empathy vs. Sympathy

03:26 Empathy in Critical Conversations

04:35 Empathy in Leadership

05:22 Judicial Empathy and Bias

07:58 Emotional Contagion in Clinical Settings

09:35 Building Emotional Resilience

13:47 Empathy Exercises and Practices

19:54 Innate Empathy and Adversity

25:02 Empathy, Vulnerability, and Humility

35:54 Expanding Empathy Beyond In-Groups

39:52 Understanding Limits and Vulnerability

42:39 The Science Behind Empathy

44:46 Empathy in Healthcare

48:34 Measuring Empathy

57:52 Practical Exercises for Building Empathy

01:04:34 Empathy and Decision Making

01:08:16 Three Captivating Things

Transcript

  You have arrived at step nine of the 10 step toolkit to having a critical conversation. I just wanted to check in and provide some gratitude for you as you've walked alongside me on this journey. With each interview, I feel like I've learned so much. so much and have attempted to implement these tools in my daily life and truly the knowledge I've gained through these episodes has made, I think, a significant difference in my relationships and the ways that I just generally view the world.

I'm so curious if you are feeling the same, if you've found yourself in situations where you've drawn from something mentioned in the podcast or found it helpful.  So there's a link in the show notes where you can text me and I would love for you to just give me a shout Let me know what's on your mind in relation to the podcast or honestly just in general.

I would love to be in touch. So Text me and also if you're loving this podcast, I would so much appreciate so deeply appreciate if you left a review. Reviews are one of the main ways that people are drawn to the podcast and how podcasts get on featured lists. So it would be awesome if I could just get your help in enhancing this podcast exposure.

Okay.  So, so far, we've learned how to become self aware, address our biases, become curious, create safety and conflict, ask questions, listen, become vulnerable, drop defenses. And now we learn how to become empathic.  Today's expert is Dr. Barrett McCulloch, the director of the center for advancing interpersonal practice, education, and research. 

Associate Professor in the Edson College of Nursing and Health Innovation at Arizona State University. A sociologist by training, McCulloch's research examines skills and attributes like humility, empathy, and belonging nested within healthcare professions, education, and practice. His work also explores disparities in health, healthcare, and within the healthcare professions with a focus on how structural design of healthcare Pre professional pathways may perpetuate the lack of diversity of the healthcare workforce.

This episode was so fascinating and we really get into what empathy looks like, what it's not, which I think is really important in terms of thinking about sympathy or in terms of thinking about kindness and also recognizing that feelings are part of our decision making always, whether we want it to be or not.

And so to just be aware of that and to try to be empathic in our decision making can make a huge positive impact. So  let's get into it.  

And so I'm going to take a step back and just say that in real simply, the way you can look at the two in terms of empathy and sympathy is that empathy is feeling with  and that sympathy is feeling for. 

And so that's kind of a real simple way of looking at it. But like I said, the sandbox of empathy scholars and conceptualizations.  is really tricky to navigate. And so we have to kind of be real specific about what we're talking about when. 

Yeah. So  do you feel like  you can  speak to why you think I included being empathic  in the toolkit for a critical conversation?

Why that might be an important component?  

I mean, for sure. I think it's important in any component. So for your listeners, for your followers and things like that, I think when you start to look at empathy as a way of connection,  um, that's, that's the key for, for it really. It's the ability to relate and connect with people on a real fundamental level.

Uh, it's not feeling bad. For someone like that's more sympathy, right? It's the idea of this underlying connection that we have with one another, um, that allows us to kind of feel what other feels, what others feel, and also to kind of put ourselves in the emotional shoes of another person. And that really comes, I think, any, any position, any you.

Any job, anything, anything that we're doing really empathy fits into what we should be. What's really interesting is, and this maybe moves beyond your question a little bit, but it's kind of in this new era of leadership in any sector, from any kind of, again, any area, any sector of business or, or any type of position, folks are calling for more empathic leadership.

And really what they're looking for is for leaders to be able to relate and connect to their team members and their colleagues in ways that we kind of have pushed aside in the past. We've related empathy to this vulnerability that is overwhelming or challenging. in a reality that we can utilize this ability in a way to harness our connections for more productivity and kind of better, you know, work related benefits. 

Yeah. You know, it's interesting before we started talking, I was looking at a couple of articles on judicial empathy 

and 

it was really fascinating because There were a lot of scholars making a case for it saying it's really important to have judges who are empathic and  especially in the sentencing phase.

So they were kind of making this distinction between judges making decisions based on law on the books and then being empathic when considering the factors for the sentencing. But something I found really interesting is that a lot of these scholars made a very Uh, strong distinction between truth. And empathy or truth and emotion by basically saying that if a judge is too empathic or even some were saying empathic at all, that it makes them biased or it makes them partial to.

And so I'm curious for you, especially in a clinical setting, you know, how do you grapple with.  Critics who are saying that empathy might lead to subjectivity or problematic biases in decision making processes. 

Ah, ah, it's like the best question. So this is huge. And this is kind of where my work is now.

So number one, biases and subjectivity are a part of everyday interactions and decision making regardless. Yeah. So to throw those in and be like, Oh, well, But this it's like, no, no, that's that's what happens regardless. So that's one thing. But the other thing in terms of decision making, yes, I, you know, that argument is out there.

And primarily because there is a lot of scholarship that shows that emotions and emotionality, you know, do it. impact decision making. You know, our emotions, the emotions of others do actually impact the decisions we make as well as a number of other factors. And so we, when we can't really boil it down, it doesn't exist in a vacuum.

And just like cognitive reasoning doesn't exist in a vacuum. Emotions are, when I tell my students, when I'm talking about emotions, I like to, and decision making, I like to talk about it in terms of like the sprinkles. Like they are everywhere in everything about decision making. So to try to, to kind of eliminate, and this is the big issue I have with, with a lot of empathy scholars, when they try to make a distinction between like affective or emotional empathy and then cognitive empathy, I'm like, no, you can't do that.

That's not, that's not real. That's not real life. So in terms of decision making in the clinical realm,  There's a big push against kind of engaging and emotional connections with from healthcare kind of practitioners and patients be like, Oh, you're going to be overwhelmed. If you kind of lean into their emotions, you're going to become, it's going to impact your clinical decision making, and it's going to lead to a lesson of objectivity and you're not going to use your clinical reasoning and blah blah blah. 

The, the issue is that stems from, and I'm assuming kind of stems from a culture, it stems from a culture of medicine in general, which I'll talk about in a second, but I think this fits well with what you're talking about before in terms of a culture of law and judicial law. So  the idea that emotions are problematic because they are not the truth. 

Right. That  I could, as I could go off on so many things about the stigma of emotions,  gender and emotions and how that plays off as well. But in general, there's a culture within medicine  in that the emotions are bad. Your emotions as a practitioner are bad and the emotions of others in terms of patients are bad because they will cloud this clinical reasoning.

Now there was a big push in like the nineties to say, wait a second, wait a second, we should be engaging. With the motions of others, but they really didn't come to fruition in any terms of theoretical or applied.  ability. The work that we're doing now is arguing that there really isn't a lot of evidence to suggest that leaning into the emotions or engaging in emotional contagion to some extent actually negatively impacts clinical decision making.

We've 

just applied for a grant now to do kind of experimental studies in showcasing that what we think in terms of our center and what we're hypothesizing is that, If we train those muscles related to kind of emotional contagion and catching the emotions of others, because that's a natural innate ability, then we can add this kind of resilience.

So we're not overwhelmed by others emotions and rather we can utilize that to better the situation to get more data from people and to engage in a more kind of compassionate, empathic, authentic  Interaction.  That was a really long winded answer.  No. This is what happens when I go off on tangents. 

No, that was great.

I think, I was thinking as you were, I was relating it in my mind to police officers and how often police officers are, in the interviews I've done with police, They have their, they believe that in order to do their job, they have to dehumanize or not emotionally connect to those that they're engaging with.

So I've, I've spoken to people who have said, you know, I've had family members, friends who are in the drug game or who are engaging in illegal activity. And I can see the trauma and the experience. Experiences that led them on that path, and I understand it. And then when I ask them, okay, so then can you see your family and your friends and the people that you're arresting?

And they'll say to me, literally, word for word, I can't do that, or else I wouldn't be able to do my job. And I think that what you are  bringing up about this idea of emotional resilience is the  correct counter to the concept of dehumanization, right? Mm-Hmm. . So rather than. Teaching dehumanization or teaching to disconnect amongst healthcare professionals or amongst police officers or judges or whoever, or just you and I  to teach that emotional resilience or the empath empathic resilience, because Then we can understand how to  connect on an emotional level without being overwhelmed or having it be a detriment to us because I think right now the dehumanization process is the detriment to us.

Oh, yeah.  Like you talked to I've interviewed civilian like. community members who are saying like, I just want to be treated like a human being by the police. That's all I want. And like hearing, and for me being a patient of doctors, like I want them to connect with me on a human level. And to me, that really means a more emotional level.

And so I'm curious when you're talking about this resilience, how does one build that?  

Yeah, I mean, so what an important thing to think about it because it gets to your point and you're totally spot on. So we've, you know, whether it's police, whether it's, you know, healthcare practitioners, one of the general kind of mantras is that detachment.

Yeah, like a compassionate detachment is basically kind of the motto. And what's really interesting is that  emotional contagion, the catching of another's emotional state is innate ability. It is born within us. We have it now. It just like any kind of muscle, you know, the more we engage with it, the more active it is.

But  To then think you can  squash that, to try to train to squash that ability, I mean you gotta think the ability, the wear and tear, the physiological wear and tear. I mean I think this is what's lending to, is one of the culprits to like burnout. Emotional exhaustion, depression, even these types of things of which we're trying to almost beat down the emotionality that we have because it's, it's going to be problematic when we, we haven't tried the, the opposite, which is actually what you're saying, to build those, the muscles around it.

There's a number of ways.  that you can actually, they're very simple, that you can build to kind of utilize that muscle. Number of kind of workouts is what we call them in our training.  And so the real, the simplest ones are just to become more aware of when you're feeling and catching the emotional state of another person.

A lot of times we just take that for granted. We just kind of let it go. We don't really lean into it and say, Oh wow, like how does that feel? Just for a hot second to acknowledge that that happened. It just kind of, it's so it's, it's something we just, again, like I said, take for granted that we just let it go.

So it's just start kind of opening up to that experience, whether you're watching a movie and there's something you're experiencing with a character, reading a book, same kind of thing, or you're on the street and you see someone going through something through their facial expressions or their body language, really to kind of lean into that and just say, oh, okay, like this is, I'm feeling, you know, such and such.

And then take kind of notice of the contextual cues around you as well and say, oh, these other things are happening as well. That could have some influence or really just taking the time.  Uh, and the more you take that time, the quicker that response will be right. Just like when you practice any kind of movement, the more often you do it, the kind of the muscle memory comes in, it becomes kind of a second nature.

So that's one thing is just become more aware of the emotional experiences you're having with others. On a regular basis. Another thing you can do is in general,  this is actually a more specific practice. So you want me to go into it?  Okay, cool. So this is something that you should do with a, someone you trust, like a partner or a significant other, or something like that, or a family member to start off with.

And then you can start doing it. Uh, with those that are a little bit more, maybe a work partner or something like that. So, it really is regarding kind of authentic listening, or some people have referred to it as mindful listening. And one of the things, and the way it goes, is you have a partner, and the partner, um, has the, the, the room, the, the space to speak.

on any topic for three minutes, three minutes, you can set a timer three minutes. The that's, that's the speaker, the listener  has to give them the gift of their attention for that three minutes.  Now that is, it sounds easy,  but now majority of the times when we're talking with someone, when we're having a conversation, we're always trying to interject our point.

We're trying to find our space to say something that we want to add. That could be as simple as like, even, or even as complex as, oh, that happened to me recently  for this particular exercise, minimize the head. Like you can, you had nod and stuff like that and acknowledge, but do not chime in. Do not chirp in just given the gift of your attention and really focus your, your cognitive and emotional energy on what they're saying and taking it in. 

Right. Bit by bit. So that's for three minutes.  switch spots. You'd be su is for folks to do. And 

t 

more of a heavier lift. T that's a little bit more try to engage with that o and you'd be surprised ho can help you start to bec of others in terms of their emotional expression and things like that. And then one of the other ones that I think is quite simple day to day that you can do is before you go into meetings,  before you go into a zoom call, before you go into teach a class or to do something with your work, right?

When you shift ears, pause,  just like you had me pause before we started this.  The exact same thing on a daily basis before you go into meeting, take a pause, take a breath or three  and kind of close a chapter, then open a chapter. Be aware of the transitions that you're going through. Now, again, all of these are like, hey, Barrett, I don't have any time for this.

This is nonsense. Like who has the time for this? The more you practice,  The more you actually become, it becomes second nature. It becomes a second thing. 

Do you think that that's also like the pause, collect yourself, move into the next space? Do you think that that's not only a way to gauge empathy of others, like be aware of others emotions, but to also realize what you're bringing into the next space so that you can understand how your emotion might be contagious to others?

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So, you know, one of the things that we forget again, is that notions that like emotions are the sprinkles, right? They're everywhere, including your own. So you could, something could have happened to you yesterday or earlier today that you are totally carrying with you. 

And really haven't kind of acknowledged or, or worked with in any way. And so into the next interaction, something, you know, triggers that, or you're bringing that part of it. So to take a pause and to understand and accept that this is a new situation, that this is a new, this is a new present  that helps you kind of move forward.

It doesn't mean the emotions have necessarily gone away, but it allows you to kind of. Take a breath, acknowledge, be more self aware,  and then understand kind of what you're bringing as well. So, and there's a number of other kind of workouts that you can do that we've talked about in kind of the, the CAPER trainings that we have.

But those, I think, are some of the more simple ones. I mean, another big one is, is just reflection, keeping a journal, kind of keeping an emotions based journal, in terms of the emotions that you experience and that you've seen others experience. Another is of course kind of facial affect recognition training that you can go through.

Paul Ekman has a fantastic one. This idea of training in the facial cues related to emotional expression. I think honestly, any pr police and any kind of la be going through  because facial expressions in whi lie  about our emotions. T it in some way. I think  i So learning those, becomi Of what they look like is also another big one.

That's interesting. So the, the idea of the, um, empathic ability being innate  someone, when I had posed that I was going to be interviewing you, someone had asked,  cause there's often this.  Anecdotal understanding or belief that those who have experienced more adversity tend to be more empathic. And so I'm wondering if there's any data that you're aware of on the connection or correlation between experiencing adversity and becoming more empathetic, or whether You know, the idea, cause the idea of it being an innate trait is kind of similar to like the mirroring, right?

You as a baby, your mom is smiling at you. And so you start to smile and that's how you learn, but it takes experience to learn those things. And so over time, then  is it the accumulation of experiences that allows someone to  understand more emotions of others, or how does that.  

So I'm going to do another long winded. 

I'm going to get to it. And if I don't bring me back. So in terms of the emotional kind of scholarship, there is a debate in terms of whether certain emotions are universal,  culturally universal, and some are more social. So there's Ekman's world, and then there's  Dr. Barrett, another scholar.  Her perspective is that a lot of these are kind of socialized right and that contextual cues play a huge part for us to understand what actual emotions and I'm really minimizing her argument. 

But more of the camp, I would argue, fall into the notion that there are, you know, fundamental universal emotions that we all.  But happiness, sadness, anger, fear, you know, those are things that regardless of what culture you're you've been kind of socialized in that the expression of those emotions. So the expression of those emotions are wherever you grew up, you're going to know how to express those emotions are going to look the same.

Um,  so that kind of gets to a point of those experiences. So with more experiences come more understanding of the. The rainbow, if you will, the portfolio, the platform of types of emotions and sub emotions and social emotions like guilt and shame and those types of things. So experiences does kind of give you a little bit broader range.

And also remember there's kind of, there's neurological issues that are at play as well, and some kind of cognitive development in terms of being able to pick up on emotional cues and, and how much of a portfolio you have of understanding others emotional states in terms of expression. As well as what they mean.

And so we see that in terms of, um, some of the spectrum in terms of Asperger's as well, but an other kind of a social cognitive and emotional types of issues. Now getting to the issue of experience. So, you could have, with, with empathy, one of the cognitive elements that's key is that perspective taking, right?

So, you can have, you know, a number of experiences  and be able to probably understand the contextual cues or situational cues related to the experiences that you witness another go through because you've had that experience, right? And so, the more experiences you have. The more able actually, let me take a step back, not able,  but the more kind of things you have in your toolkit in terms of perspective taking to be able to understand what that might be.

That 

does not mean that you're able and or willing to kind of lean in  to understanding that emotional state so that so going through trauma.  Depends on the type of trauma, because for some, they may be minimizing their emotional availability towards others in terms of their receptivity.  So there's a lot of work in terms of all of that stuff.

So there, it, it's again, very much wanting to work through that. But I think the, the fundamental point of the more experiences you have, positive or negative, the more perspectives you're gonna be able to take.  

Yeah, 

the emotional contagion aspect of it, though, kind of that really fundamental that you're talking about that primitive catching of another's emotional states, which involves that mimicking of emotional expression, as well as tone. 

So that is argued to be born in us.  

When 

we come out there, we have that ability coming out. And what's really interesting that is that the research on that shows that it happens in like a ton of different spaces. Hmm.  So like birds. Horses, pigs, mice, like,  this is a univer again, another universal trait, and it's, if you think about it, it is for the survival of the species. 

If we can connect and we understand, then we're actually able to kind of speak without speaking, and connect in that way, and actually build community by understanding the emotions of others without actually having to talk about it. 

Right.  Yeah,  it is. So I, I like this vulnerability piece because that's one of the other elements of the toolkit.

And  there,  I was thinking about the conversations that are being had right now in the media around Israel and Palestine. And Just not getting into the politics of it, but thinking about just how to engage in kind of an empathic understanding of what is happening and how to speak about it in an empathic and vulnerable way.

And so I'm, I'm curious if you feel like  is.  Is vulnerability,  like if we're, if we're talking about empathy being sprinkles, is emotions 

are sprinkles. 

Emotions are sprinkles. Yeah, 

exactly. 

Okay, so  vulnerability then,  does it need to precede  Empathy. Like, do you need to be vulnerable in order to be empathic?

That's such a good question.  That's like, that's like  the best question.  I'm serious. Hands down one of the best questions I've ever heard. Because I'll tell you why. I think we have such a stigma surrounding the concept, the term vulnerability. Like, so not, not to, not to poo poo on Brene Brown's work. I think her work is good.

I have an issue, my wife knows this because I talk about it all the time, with kind of the Oprahfication. Of academia and scholarship, which I think Brene Brown represents. However, she's done a nice job of opening the door to vulnerability. However, I feel that people who have ingested it,  uh, anyway, and it's a whole nother thing. 

Let's say that I'm glad she put a spotlight on the idea.  Vulnerability is essential,  uh, for empathy also for any type of connection.  And, and what we mean by that is not just vulnerability as in, like, is the openness. To being hurt, wronged, allowing yourself to be mistreated in some way is a notion of mobility.

And so I don't mean like physically, necessarily, but also in terms of emotionally, intellectually. And I think vulnerability requires a significant amount of humility. 

Hmm.  

And so I prefer looking at it as humility  rather than this notion of vulnerability, because I, again, that's such a weird word right now. 

And the way we kind of look at humility is this ability to be secure in your vulnerabilities, in what you don't know, in what, in your place in the world, in terms of your smallness. 

Yes. 

As well as, you know, kind of your own, you know, what you don't know, your own abilities, your place, those types of things are so important to keep in context.

So understanding your level of humility requires such a level of confidence  in yourself to be like, I can be wrong.  I can have, you know, I, I can be good at something, but also I know that there's a number of other people that are so much better. 

Right. 

And also I'm a part of a community. I'm part of something much bigger.

And as much as I'd like to be, you know, I'm one part of it and so many others are one part of it as well. So in that sense, having that humility allows you the openness to make those connections, to say like, Oh, well, you know, we're a part of something much bigger than ourselves. 

Right. Yeah, it seems like there's  because as you were talking earlier about empathy and vulnerability and kind of the idea of being aware of other people's emotions, I was thinking about some of the work that I've done personally on codependence. 

And where that line falls between being empathetic and being codependent in a way where you're hyper attuned to the other person's feelings to such a degree that your own feelings get lost.  And so, I think that there has to be like healthy boundaries around empathy.  And I like this idea that you're bringing in around humility of humility, almost being the boundaries of vulnerability.

There is something that I do in my classes is I really try and  Have the class unlearn some of the labels that have been or the definitions that have been attached to certain labels like victim or offender and with victim in particular, it's seen as something that's so weak so. It's just negative in general.

And  I feel like the term vulnerable has a lot of these similar negative connotations, but the idea of humility does signify this groundedness. And so then  if you're saying that empathy requires humility, we've kind of talked about how to build some muscles, but  how do you get How do you become,  what is even the term, humilitous? 

How do you become, how do you have humility? 

How do you build, how do you become humble, right? Right. It's, yeah, so it's very similar  to what you would do to build empathy because they are, you know, compassion, humility, empathy, gratitude, these kind of social positive, you know, traits that we can have.  are very similar.

They're very related. And so how can we go ahead to, to build those muscles? And a lot of it does relate to, to an issue of vulnerability in terms of being able and open to take feedback. Right. It was the last time. I mean, we're so bad at this. I mean, cause we get it all the time. Right. So like when we, when we submit a paper and we get reviewer feedback back, I used to like, honestly, I would spend a day writing like the angry response to reviewers, which was like, screw you, you have no idea what you're talking about, and then I would sit on that for a while, and,  and like, you know, so I wouldn't send that, but then I would actually write them, right?

Over time.  You start to develop this idea of, wait a second, there's probably some, some gems in here. There's, you know, this wasn't the best paper in the world. There's no way there can't be some perspectives on it. So it's the idea of opening yourself up and being confident. Like, okay, yeah, it was a good paper, but yeah, it's not the best and taking that feedback back.

So that's like one of the biggest ones. Also, and a lot of times I direct a lot of my work in terms of developing humility towards leaders and like leaders of colleges, leaders of, uh, universities, leaders of healthcare organizations,  and the idea of transparency and decision making, being confident, like, and, and, you know, taking others feedback in, but then also understanding, showing people how decisions were actually made and being open to that, not having to change, you Your decision, but actually just showing them.

Hey, here's how it goes rather than kind of keeping it behind the curtain all the time because everything's got to be so sick and really opening the curtain up and saying, Hey, this is how things are done here. Right. So  practicing in that way. And then also again, gauging your awareness. Of others and your being more self-aware of your own abilities and more accepting of fallibility,  right?

That's such an important . I just don't, we're just not, we're not socialized and we're not professionalized in any way to allow for these things to grow.  We're taught, we're really are taught informally, informally to close ourselves off and to actually detach in a way and become this entity of, of a lack of feelings, a lack of connection. 

And not really taught to work like, Hey, let's, let's collab, like the collaboration aspect, being open to others ideas. I mean, we talk such a good game, but how often do we actually engage in that?  So there's minimal things that we can do on a regular basis that we can then role model to our students and to our colleagues that I think are essential.

Yeah. I think one of the things that's pointed to this point is the dichotomy of success and failure. And how  there's.  It shouldn't be dichotomous, right? The idea that the antithesis of success is failure, but there's a way to reframe failure as a success. If you frame it as a lesson, if you frame it as a growth point, if you frame it as something that you can then Like, you know, some people might say, oh, submitting a journal article and then getting it rejected or submitting, you know, just anything to your employer and having it be rejected is a failure when what you can see is, okay, this wasn't maybe my strongest point that I made or.

What can I take from this lesson? What do you, what do I think they didn't see in my argument that maybe I can now strengthen because it wasn't accepted. And so thinking about  not the antithesis of success as failure, but failure and success being the same. And I think when, because we've been conditioned to think of them as dichotomous or polarized, we're so unwilling to talk about failure or we're so unwilling to accept failure or.

See ourselves as a failure when if, like, you can't grow unless you fail. And so I think in having a critical conversation, that's one of the most important things is not if someone takes your point and just rips it apart in a way that like You definitely did not win, you know, quote, unquote, that argument, like good, you know, cause that's going to make your next conversation even stronger and it'll allow you to understand how to better convey your point.

And I think that's one of the. He's too. And like in the conversational aspect and the importance of empathy is understanding where the other person is emotionally, contextually, and understanding how to connect with them so that they better understand your perspective because you better understand theirs. 

Yeah, I totally, totally agree. I mean, so, so two things kind of taking off what you're saying like  with empathy, the research shows that we're more likely  to experience empathy with those in our in group. So those like us, you know, close to family, friends, that kind of stuff. So there was a ton of work. And still is.

Towards, how do we expand our in group to kind of incorporate more of the out group? So there's all these theories on cognitive representation, so how we can start to think about people as a part of our group in different ways, whether it's personalization or a common in group identity, right? There's others as well. 

But you can, kind of taking it back to the discussion on the dehumanization part, so when we start to detach ourselves from others, we immediately put them in an out group, because it's easier.  I don't have to engage with them and I can actually put all the I swear on your podcast I can put all the bullshit on them And say like, and then I can just distance, right.

I can consistently distance them and create that social distance. And it's easier for me to do my job. 

Yeah. 

It's harder  to actually start to not, not necessarily bring people into your in group, but to see them as a potential part of, of like, you know, like humility again, allows us to see that we are part of a much larger bit, whether that's a part of a group, part of a team, part of a society, part of a community, part of an earth.

Right, or universe. So when we start to think in that way, we have to start seeing people as a much bar broader kind of communion.  And that's why humility is so good for empathy in terms of making that connection. And also, the second point  is this notion of fear.  Right. We're so scared of failing. We're so scared of being wrong.

We're so scared of being humiliated, which is different than, than humility, that we, like being turned down and things like that, that we, we don't engage.  We put those barriers up. We put those walls up to protect ourselves, right? These psychological resources that we can engage to make sure that we are protected because that's our number one factor.

So again, it's hard work to start, to minimize those things, to expose yourself, to be more open, to be more vulnerable, right? In that way. So when we start to minimize the fear,  that's when we can start to really embrace the notions of our connectivity with others. 

You think that it's actually harder though, because I would make the argument that maybe it's perceived as harder to be more connected and empathic, but I would, I would believe that it's much harder to maintain walls and to be isolated and to like, I think that we perceive it as more difficult.

When really, if we have strength in the muscles that you're talking about, we would find much more flow in our daily lives and much more joy in our daily lives because we actually are able to, we are social beings. We need that for survival. And so, I think  to connect to more people and and I think that's part of this in group out group dynamic is that we're desperate for community and because we've become such a divisive society, we try and stick to a belief system, even if we don't fully You Believe those, those things, because we just want to be part of a group.

And I think if we're able to open ourselves up to even more people, we'll find that it's a more joyful and easier life because you're not constantly in conflict with others opinions or trying to hold on to your sense of safety or whatever, I think. There's again like healthy boundaries in terms of knowing what's good for you and knowing what could be potentially painful or dangerous.

But I do think, as you're saying like knowing your limits. while working those muscles to maybe expand those limits in a healthy and safe way.  

You're  110 percent correct.  The issues that we run into are that every social institution, every social structure that we engage with  does not,  or I should say this way, teaches us  to put up those walls,  right?

And so everything we engage in, we constantly learn new ways to protect ourselves.  To become less vulnerable, if you will, but yes, if we start to actually lower those down and really engage authentically,  then the, the,  you talk about flow, the engagement that you will experience the good stuff that you will get from interactions will be so much more positive and revitalizing. 

Right. 

And you would if you were consistently trying to just hold tight all the time. Have you ever like, this is one of the things that I wish people would start to kind of think about  is, is one of the things is kind of do people do kind of the body scans, like, you know, where you feel tension, every once in a while, just stop and feel like how tense. 

You actually are like every once in a while, like I'll do it when I'm watching TV, everyone. And you just do like, what the fuck is  like, what am I, what is my body doing?  All of the energy that takes. So now think about the, the logical and emotional energy that you are utilizing on a daily basis to really kind of guide through your, your interactions.

So to kind of engage your humility, engage your empathy, be more authentic, your boundaries, have that resilience, but. It takes practice because we have been trained for the alternative. 

I love that metaphor you just gave her the, the idea that the tension we're holding in our bodies throughout the day takes a lot of work.

And if we release that tension, we'll go into a better flow state with our bodies. And.  And then equating that to conversation and how much more work it takes to be in your own mind and be trying to hammer your point and not connecting and just how much easier it is when you release that and just are present and understanding where the other person is coming from.

There's just so many components to that we're kind of pulling into it from the toolkit of like this idea of being present, the idea of being vulnerable, the idea of being self aware. All these things tie so intricately into this concept of empathy and I'm wondering if you can speak to, I mean, we've kind of  it around it a bit, but if you can just hammer out some of the science that shows the benefit of being empathetic.

Yeah, I mean, sure. So  the,  the literature and kind of the research just shows that when we engage in or when we have the experience of empathy with others, it is, you know,  It builds the connection with others in that way. So it's a community building kind of trait and ability. And so it, it, it makes more positive engagement.

There's actually, you know, there's, there's showcases kind of more mood lifting, but one of the things before I go too far is that I, we don't, we talked a little bit way early about kind of the behavioral component.  And so that has kind of been kind of brought in to to the argument of what empathy is and it's not you can experience empathy without any type of behavioral component without any type of outcome. 

Right. So when we talk about the benefits of empathy. A lot of it has to do with the ability to kind of, again,  engage with the community, engage with those kind of other oriented abilities that we have, and really, like, heighten and tone those skills.  Is empathy a part of, of kind of any kind of pro social behavior?

For sure. Right? So, it's a, it's a part of it. Doesn't mean it has to be there. Sure. All right. It is. It can be a part of it, right? The more the higher intensity our experience of empathy, there is evidence to suggest the more likely we are to do something about it. So in that sense, the benefits can be had can be set up.

Okay. Experiencing more empathy is going to lead to more pro social behavior in terms of helping in terms of social support in terms of emotional support. So there's those benefits as well. I'd like to think of so a lot of my research is on kind of teamness, building teams within health care and community building. 

And I would say things like empathy, humility, emotional contagion, sense of belonging. These types of things are at the individual and organizational level are all about community building. They're all about fostering interconnectivity  and really highlighting Are are interconnectedness as a species and as a kind of a universal group  

And so 

that's the benefit that we're, and we're losing it because, and I say we're losing it, I mean, because we're not practicing it.

And the reason we're not practicing is what we talked about before, this kind of general sociocultural kind of idea that this, this is, this means vulnerability. This means weakness. This means lack of confidence. This means you're a sap, you know, and that kind of stuff. In reality,  these are the traits and abilities that reflect the strongest among us.

In terms of self confidence, in terms of emotional resilience. These are the people that are building the bridges. and moving beyond the individual self focus into the we. They're moving from the I to the we, and that is so essential right now as we become so isolated in our own little worlds that we have to start expanding.

And I just, it's so frustrating when people push back against it about this notion of weakness when in reality it is the strongest. 

Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So  the,  you, you had mentioned the difference between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy. Mm-Hmm 

mm-Hmm. . 

What, what is the difference there? 

So there, so one, the argument is my argument, a number of others, and I'm just, you know, uh, going off of what others have argued is that there is, that you can't have one without the other.

But  if you were to try to extract them.  In general, the cognitive perspective of empathy is really focused on that perspective taking, the ability to kind of, and taking in contextual cues, right, where the emotional side is more of that emotional contagion. I 

see. 

And so, the, within the healthcare field specifically, There's a very strong focus on the cognitive almost and not almost actually extracting the emotional aspect out of it 

and 

focusing on this notion of a physician empathy or empathy specific for healthcare practitioners.

That is purely cognitive, and even the kind of prominent scholars in that field.  Explicitly state that we remove the emotions outta it.  Wow. Yet that has been the, the dominant, I guess, paradigm. I guess you could, uh, I guess paradigm, let's just say dominant theory and conceptualization of empathy within the healthcare field and health professions education.

And so they have been measuring. Empathy in that sense, based almost  solely on that conceptualization.  So a colleague of mine recently wrote a paper about how, whoa, whoa, whoa.  Have you realized that you're talking about a completely emotional, deficient version of empathy and you're calling it empathy?

When in reality, it's not 

right. 

And so they're measurements that we say are off and that even though it may, they're, they're kind of scales and tools may align or in terms of kind of correspond with some of the broader operationalizations of empathy.  It's problematic to be reinforcing emotionally deficient, um, providers in healthcare, 

right?

Okay. That's a perfect lead into what I wanted to ask is how are we measuring empathy? And so I asked this because as listeners want to become more empathic and want to become just. Yeah. How can they kind of gauge their own level of empathy? And so what is empirically being measured to demonstrate one's empathy?

Okay. So that's another big debate is if, if we can use a scale  to measure one's empathy, right? Self report specifically. So that's just like, and I'll jump ship over here to humility for a second. It's the same thing going on in terms of measuring humility. It's like, wait a second, if I'm saying I'm so humble through this self report, like, what does that even mean?

So anyway, with empathy, though, in the healthcare fields, Jefferson scale of physician empathy, which has now has now been termed the Jefferson scale of empathy. Which is bullshit. But that has been the, the prominent scale utilized within the healthcare fields for practitioners as well as students in healthcare fields.

Again, that whole paper that I just talked about is all about kind of saying, wait, wait, that's a little long. In the general fields, I would say the kind of more prominent, the one that gets to use a lot is Davis's inter reactivity index. Interactivity index. Interactivity index. Interpersonal reactivity index, the IRI.

That one is a multidimensional scale of empathy, measuring different elements of it. And so that's the one that I've used a lot and a number of other scholars kind of still. And that's back from the 80s and it's still kind of one of the more prominent. You know, totally both, you know, reliable, valid, all that good stuff. 

And then there's a number of if you want to just look at emotional contagion in terms of how, how likely are you to catch the emotions of another state. There's a few scales of that as well, which there's a paper we're working on right now to list. All those totally off topic for actually it's on topic.

This is super cool. So a bunch of colleagues and I are doing a lit review, uh, scoping review on the triggers and measurements of emotional contagion amongst human subjects. 

So, 

Of the studies that have been done since like Hatfield and colleagues, conceptualization of emotional contagion in the 80s, what measurements have we been using to measure emotional contagion in others, but how have it been triggered?

How are we triggering it, right? 

Um, 

in experimental studies, but other things.  Number one way we're doing it in studies is a scale, is a self report scale. Um, and I was like, Oh, that's really weird that you would do that. But there are also some really interesting ways that we're, we're measuring or triggering emotional contagion with, you know, utilizing facial expressions, of course, user utilizing songs, even really trying to find new ways of how we can trigger that emotional connection with others.

Right. Then the, the actual measurement besides the scale, there's also the second, I think most often use or most common use is kind of a, uh, facial affect. Kind of recognition software that can pick up cues in terms of the face. Uh, it's, and then also in others, other people observing and like doing that kind of measurement as well.

Super cool stuff. Really interesting. But I would say, and then I'm just going to move back for a second and say that if you want to really gauge yourself in terms of empathy, if you want to do kind of a, a pseudo autoethnography. of yourself is really take a few days, put yourself in different situations.

Like when you're in different situations, really gauge to what extent a, you're feeling the emotions of another, 

right. 

And understanding that difference between the other's emotions and what you're feeling, because you're just feeling a little bit of that. It's not the same emotion, right. And that's going to have a lot to do with how much you can actually understand their emotional states.

But then also what other information you're utilizing to engage in that situation with that person. 

Right. 

How empathic. A lot of times we like to think we're more empathic than we are. In reality, we're so self focused that we've, we've turned off the mechanisms. To really, or at least muted them to be able to engage in that.

And so again, it's this idea of building up that ability, you know, once.  

Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think there are probably a lot of people who have the ability to be empathic  and  also are anxious.  Their anxieties or their, which are self centered, right. And thinking about. How the other person is doing and how that relates to how you're feeling about yourself and what are they thinking about you and all of these things. 

It, even if you have the innate ability to be empathic,  it's.  It's like shielded by the anxiety. And so again, self 

protection, 

right. And so I think, Oh, I love that. Yeah, exactly. So it's the self protection. So it's, it's the vulnerability and humility that's required to have empathy is the release of that personal self contained anxiety that then allows you to feel others emotions and be present with them.

Right.  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 

There's a lot of work in terms of, you know, certain types of mental health issues, whether it's anxiety related, depression related, or other things, you know, even, uh, goes as far as kind of schizophrenia and other issues, you know, take it down the road a little bit, to show that that, those are challenges, people suffering from those issues, are challenges to engage in empathy. 

Again, for a number of reasons, but you know, for one, at the most surface level for what you're talking about, when we are so kind of in that situation of high anxiety or even high depression, it is very challenging to then open the door or be open to others emotional states. Um, and some have argued that it could be that we're actually over open and we haven't, we haven't been able to set those boundaries.

So we do become overwhelmed. by others. And so there's still a ton of work that needs to be done in those areas. Uh, and again, even the, the, the neuro related work, um, is, is still so fresh and new 

that 

we're just general, like finding general areas of where stuff is going off when we're engaging in these things, we still need to pinpoint specifics.

So the empathy world, and this is one of the most interesting things to me is that again, the sand, like getting back to the beginning, the sandbox is so big.  There's so many scholars playing it and nobody is really  saying, Hey, wait a second, like I don't, I don't necessarily agree with that point or that takes us in a different direction, or that's more of a checklist and that's not going to work. 

We need more people kind of setting the fence lines.  For what we're talking about to make sure that we're talking about the same thing, 

right? 

Um, and then we're actually, we're trying to build a skill set, whether it's a professional skill set. And that's one of the arguments we make in the paper. If it's going to be a cognitive skill set, fine.

It's a skill set. Don't call it empathy, right? You'll call it something else, but let's, let's really start to talk about the same thing. And, and therefore we can actually start to help people. Other people in terms of building these muscles related to it. 

Right. So to kind of synthesize some of my greatest takeaways from this conversation,  that feelings are everywhere, right?

So the denial of them is not It  just, they're there already, right? Like they're there, they're there. So let's, so let's acknowledge them.  And then if we can acknowledge them and be empathetic and understanding the feelings of others, that allows us to then grow as a community, it allows us  Be more forward thinking and leads to better success in business in self, uh, feelings of self.

Uh, I think because the other thing too, is I, the idea of the vulnerability Humility and empathy cycle. I see it as very cyclical in a way where when you are able to be vulnerable, then be humble with your boundaries and then engage in empathy. It'll likely allow you. It'll provide what I  can only imagine is much more positive feedback, which would then inform and incite further vulnerability that would then lead to more humility, then lead to more engagement and empathy, then lead to more vulnerability.

And so. It's just this practice. Um,  and so,  you know, you listed off the mindful listening, three minute exercise and the self awareness mindfulness exercise of just kind of being aware of your feelings around others and the taking in the context. I'm wondering if there are any, for the listeners, any other.

exercises that you know of or that you've engaged in personally or with your students that you think could help enhance any of these traits that we're kind of talking about, vulnerability, humility, or empathy.  

I mean, yeah, so there's a number of, and I can also send, send you and you can post it on whatever, but the ones that I find the most helpful Are the ones that are really the ones that I can incorporate into my daily practice so you know we can we can engage more on kind of the different types of mindfulness practices that we could that we could do so that's that's a whole library of other things that we could engage in that allow us to be more present.

That allow us to really be able to engage the situational and contextual necessity of being where you are. And so I want to, I do want to advocate for a number of different mindfulness practices.  I just, I, one of the things that happens often times when you talk about mindfulness is that Is that people kind of turn off, there was like a mindfulness movement that went on, but the ability to do that and really practice that we need to start focusing it like we would with a workout with a really hard workout where you're pushing your muscles in a particular way, whether it's running, whether it's weightlifting, where it's doing these things.

One of the things to think about is, and the way we frame it is that you wouldn't just go run a marathon. Without trade, right? And he wouldn't just go try to squat 300 and some pounds without kind of building up to it. And so to focus on the little things in the stepwise fashion to build up to the, to the situations, don't just jump out and start to be like, Oh, I'm going to experience everyone's emotion. 

No, little by little, one of the fun thing that you could do, it's a little, it's a little, I think it's a little challenging, but others have done this after I was after I tried it a few times I thought it was helpful. Go to a coffee shop or someplace where you can sit down and not be seen as kind of a creeper if you're looking at other people, 

right?

So I always say coffee shop's a great place. Go to a, whatever your local coffee shop is that you feel comfortable and sit kind of somewhere where you can see a bunch of people and you can see interactions  and start to observe. Act as an observer, act as a researcher, observe others interactions, whether you can hear them or not, start to observe their facial expressions, their 

And 

start to acknowledge kind of how you are engaging with those, with the, with those interactions.

So, how are you feeling when you see certain facial expressions or when you feel certain interactions? And I use this for my graduate students in my qualitative methods class as well, in terms of building their observational skills, right? So, start to really sit down and take note of all the things around you, because we, what we end up doing,  is we are so focused on kind of the task at hand and getting things done and in our bodies were built this way to not in our minds were built this way to not take in all of the data right we can't possibly take in all the data that's happening all the sites all the smells all the sounds everything we can't do it it'd be too much we'd explode so What I try to encourage people to do is to go into these coffee shops and to kind of open it up a little bit.

But the first thing before we start to open up is really to acknowledge whether it's journaling or just in a kind of a present mindful way, what we're bringing to the table that day.  So as I sit down, what am I feeling? Where am I right now? And then open it up to experiencing others situations. And then we start to learn how we're picking, what cues we tend to pick up on.

Why are we picking up on that? We can go into these rabbit holes. And I think it's a really, really heavy lift. But we have to do it over and over and over again. It's something fun that you can start to do and then keep on doing it over and over. I think another great place to do that is like airports.

Yeah. I love that idea that you're talking about in terms of what you're bringing and what you're picking up. Cause as you were saying that of like observing other people's facial cues and Thinking about what experiences they're having, even if you can't hear them. 

Yeah. I 

was thinking, well, you're probably gonna project a lot.

Yeah, oh yeah, exactly. Your own beliefs or feelings around what they're experiencing. And I think that's an important distinction of empathy too, is not necessarily projecting your.  What you think they're feeling on 'em, but it's more about recognizing how their feelings are impacting you and how your feelings are impacting them, not assuming that you know what they're feeling.

Exactly. Exactly. So that idea of. Raising your awareness of being aware of how others are others expression of emotional states are impacting you. That's key, right? The key distinction with empathy is understanding that what you're witnessing and what you're seeing the emotional state of another and what you will feel in return is not their emotional state. 

It is your translation or just a little bit of that emotion. So you can still feel sadness. If you see sadness being expressed,  but it is a version of that within yourself. And to understand that distinction is essential that self other distinction within empathy. 

Yeah, that's super important. That's super important.

Yeah. Cause  

that can be challenging. Sometimes we just start to believe like,  if we, if we become more aware of it, we start to think like, Oh, wow. That person made me sad. And it's like, well, yeah, you can be, you can have emotional contagion with others in terms of they bring in their studies that show this, that, you know, people who are, you know, miserably loves company kind of thing, people who bring sadness into a situation, people might start to feel a little bit of that.

When we start to build that idea of that's someone else's feeling. I mean, and I do this with my wife all the time. It's, you know, whether I'm in a mood or she's in something, the idea of being able to say like, okay, you're, you're experiencing something. And I, and I understand that I'm here for you. How, you know, I love, I'll do things I can do to help.

That's yours. 

Yeah.  

That's yours. And one of the things that we have to be careful of in terms of our, our kind of emotional connectivity  is not taking it personally.  Just because someone is experiencing something does not mean it's because you did it. 

That key component is also, like, wrapped up in our self centeredness.

Exactly. 

So think about humility in terms of understanding that  you're, you're not the center of everyone's attention. Right, 

right. And I think the one distinction I want to make too, I was thinking about in our preliminary talk, You spoke about how empathy is not kindness.  And I was thinking about how the idea of judicial empathy with judges or police or whatever,  the idea of being empathetic is not necessarily being kind or not holding someone accountable.

It's the idea that you're taking a holistic understanding to empathize, With right as you're saying like to understand that the emotions that are the context or whatever you can understand that. And so then your actions may be influenced by that in a way that is.  Positive. And I think that people often think of the influence of empathy on decision making as solely negative,  where I think that there's a lot of positivity that can happen.

And I mean, if you look at specifically black maternal mortality rates, or you look at police shootings or any of these things that have been, or like, you know, long sentences, all of these things that have been driven by.  in large part lack of empathy have been detrimental to our society. And so  it's It's understanding the positive impact of empathy on decision making on realizing that it's not inherently going to lead to, you know, poor decision making and to understand too that it's gonna be there anyway, like feelings are gonna impact decision making anyway.

So if you can bring awareness to it and if you can have that Um, heightened understanding of its impact, then you have more power over it, which will probably lead to better decision making. 

Well, exactly. I mean, one of the key things that you're talking about is that  we need to stop. We need to move away.

Again, this is more of a social, cultural understanding of emotions as weakness. We need to move away from the conceptual, from the understanding or the thought process that empathy is weakness. Being empathic is weakness. Empathy is a tool  in terms of data gathering, right? It is an enhanced data gathering tool.

Right, right. And so that's how we frame it with healthcare practitioners is, if you are more open and aware of the emotional states of others, and in turn, your kind of connection with that, think about the data you can utilize to help your decision making in terms of what they seem to be reacting to in terms of your interaction.

Right. 

And the same thing could be said for kind of judicial approaches is, is it's not weakness. Again, it's not, and it's not kindness, not to say that kindness is weakness. It is definitely not kindness. And when we started equating it with the two, that's when people are saying, okay, well, that's, That's why we don't have to be kind, you know, to these, to, to other types of certain types of people who have done kind of  egregious acts, right? 

It's idea of understanding the broader picture, that holistic approach that you talked about. Using the tools in our toolbox allows us to take a much broader approach from not just the contextual, the situational, and the experiential,  but then the emotional and psychological as well. 

Right. When we 

can bring in all of that data to help us make our decisions and help us move forward, does it take a little time?

Sure. But as we start to kind of work those muscles out, that time that's needed becomes less and less and less, and that muscle memory creeps in. So again, moving in that direction is essential. 

Yeah. I love that. Well, I feel like I could go on forever. I feel like we've given listeners a lot to chew on here, and I'm excited to hear their comments and questions and responses.

Um, I have three closing questions for you. 

Awesome. 

Okay, so three things that are keeping your attention right now, maybe a show, a podcast, a book, something in the media that you're like doing deep dives on three things. 

Oh, I mean, it's right now, of course, like you talked about with Israel and Hamas, that that's, that's on my attention, of course, as well, you know, should be on everyone's attention.

And so that's, that's big. In terms of other things that are keeping my attention, I, I run a lot. I do a lot of trail running and stuff like that. And I just got done doing a, um, they said it was a 26 K, but it was way longer than that. And I went to Flagstaff and it was this thing they called a quad bomber.

You basically just go up from 7, 000 to nine plus thousand feet elevation, and then back down. And it was the hardest physical thing that I'd ever done.  I, like I said, I do a lot of running, but so now I have other things. So I'm just kind of, I'm being very attentive to how my body feels. I am no spring chicken and my body is very hurt right now.

And so I'm being more attentive to that. That's keeping my attention. And then, and then also kind of the,  the, the changing of the seasons in terms of where it was in Flagstaff and then here, 

so 

climate has been on my mind, so I will say kind of, you know, that's another one related to that. Yeah. And then in terms of like social media, my kids reel into Lego and watching the reruns of old Lego, Lego master shows.

And now the new season's out. And so we've been watching that and just the. The creativity, people's creativity blows my mind in terms of the ways people can think about things and then how they can apply that. Um, so, so those are probably the three things that I, that have been on my mind 

lately. 

Cool. I like 

it. 

Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. 

Oh, thanks for the opportunity. This was fantastic. And any questions anyone has about any of this stuff, please feel free to email me or anything like that. Cool. 

Awesome. 

Awesome. 

Thank you so much for joining me in my critical conversation with Dr. Barrett McCallick. This was Step 9 in this season's 10 episode toolkit for having a critical conversation. I thought the distinction between feeling with and feeling through Four was crucial in understanding empathy. Also, in re-listening to this, I was like, , have I been saying empathic when it's really empathetic?

But then I Googled it and they're interchangeable, so we're good.  Also, who knew Humble was the adjective of the noun? Humility. 'cause I didn't.  I like the idea of being super observant of those around us in an airport, as he suggested, or a cafe and taking note of the feelings we feel when we see others or their interactions.

Although it is interesting to think about how what we see is shaped by our own worldview and experiences, so I'll need to ask how accurate our empathic muscles are or whether they can be inaccurate because of our own stories and if there's a way to better hone that. I also want to gain clarity around the boundary between empathy and codependence or hypervigilance, so I'll be asking those topics in the Q& A.

So if you have any questions that are lingering, please send them my way, either by text, which can be found in the show notes, or email to whatsjustpod  at gmail dot com, or DM any of the What's Just Socials, which can be found in the show notes. And don't forget to subscribe, share, and please leave a review.

We'll be back next week with the last step, step 10, being open to change. And this one is juicy and honestly might be a little controversial. So I'll be very interested in your thoughts, but stay critical, stay connected, and I'll see you next time.