Get Real Estate Podcast
Get Real Estate Podcast
Euclidian Zoning Codes, Comprehensive Planning, and Community Engagement with Maryland Secretary of Planning Rebecca L. Flora
In this episode, Maryland REALTORS CEO, Chuck Kasky, Esq., is joined by Maryland Department of Planning Secretary, Rebecca L. Flora, to discuss how planners can guide, change, create more sustainable and equitable outcomes, and establish themselves as critical to Maryland's thriving communities.
Rebecca L. Flora, AICP, was confirmed as Governor Wes Moore’s nominee for Secretary of the Maryland Department of Planning on February 17, 2023, the latest achievement in a career spanning more than 35 years, including planning leadership positions in the public and private sectors.
As Secretary, Flora provides comprehensive leadership of the Department’s mission, objectives, and initiatives, including oversight of Planning Services, State Data Center, Maryland Historical Trust (MHT), and Jefferson Patterson Park and Museum (JPPM) in Calvert County.
Flora comes to the Department of Planning with extensive urban planning experience, having worked in the Pittsburgh area for more than 20 years in project management, community development, and was the first executive director of the Green Building Alliance (GBA), whose vision is to address climate change, advance human health, achieve social equity, and create thriving economies.
The Maryland Department of Planning promotes a vision for economic development, flexibility, and local authority. Throughout Maryland. The department helps Maryland's counties and municipalities and land use and resource planning, and provides review and technical assistance on a variety of planning topics. In addition, planning offers data analysis and research assistance and policy development and implementation support to local governments and communities, businesses, and other organizations. Here in Maryland. Today we'll be exploring the role of the Maryland Department of Planning because with foresight in mind, planners can guide, change, create more sustainable and equitable outcomes, and establish themselves as critical to our thriving communities. Hello, I'm Chuck Caskey , Maryland Realtors, CEO , and you are listening to Get Real Estate, the Maryland Realtors Podcast. I'm really excited to interview today's guest. Rebecca Flora, secretary of Maryland, department of Planning. Secretary Flora was confirmed as Governor Wes Moore's, nominee for Secretary of Planning on February 17th, 2023. The latest achievement in a career spanning more than 35 years, a distinguished career including planning leadership positions in the public and private sectors. As Secretary Ms . Flora provides comprehensive leadership of the department's mission, objectives and initiatives, including oversight of planning services, the state data center, and the Maryland Historical Trust. She comes to the Department of Planning with an extensive urban planning experience, having worked in the Pittsburgh area for more than 20 years in project management, community development, and was the first executive director of the Green Building Alliance. Her professional background also includes nine years with the United States Green Building Council and was a founding member of the Lead ND core committee, a group that takes the green certification concept beyond individual buildings and applies it to entire neighborhoods. She later launched remake group, LLCA woman owned Chestertown based business where she led large scale brownfield redevelopment projects and sustainability and resiliency plans in locations across the country. Secretary Flora graduated from State University of New York, Plattsburgh with a Bachelor of Arts and Environmental Studies, and received a master's degree in Urban and Regional Planning from Virginia Tech. She also holds credentials as a green building and neighborhood development professional, along with her planning credential, A ICP Secretary Flora. Welcome to Maryland and welcome to the program. Hi, Chuck.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thanks so much for having
Speaker 1:Me here. Very, very distinguished career. We're we're, we're lucky to have you. Thanks for taking on. Uh , yet another government position, <laugh> <laugh> . One thing that was not mentioned in, in the official bio, we were sent, but we did a little digging as we do. You also spent some time as an adjunct professor at Carnegie Mellon Institute. One of your students there is now also in Governor Moore's cabinet. Who could that be?
Speaker 2:<laugh>? Yeah . It's like Larry Day . And I have a lot of fun with that because it was , uh, gosh, almost 20 years ago now, not quite there . Yes. A young man was in my class , uh oh gosh , at the mines college at Carnegie Mellon, and I was teaching a course I created called Sustainable Community Development, I think the first of its kind in the country at the time. Wow. Very cool. And we are really enjoying getting to work together Now.
Speaker 1:That must be really exciting. I won't ask you what kind of student he was. <laugh>
Speaker 2:He was an A plus student . I absolutely hear that .
Speaker 1:Of course. Somehow , I'm not surprised he's been already in the short time. We've, well, we've known him as mayor of Salisbury, of course. But when we found out that he was gonna accept the position of Secretary of Housing and Community Development, we were ecstatic. And our wildest dreams have come true. We've developed a very deep working relationship with him and the department. And I can tell you, we'll talk a little bit more about Governor Moore's vision and on housing especially, but we're ecstatic to have a true partner in state government to recognize that we are really in a housing supply affordability crisis and, and applaud Governor Moore's vision and proposals and, and we're backing them a hundred percent. It's going through the legislative process as we speak the sausage factory, as they say. But we'll talk a little bit about that. But I really wanted to start kind of at a high level. Most many of our, of our listeners, they're , they're , they're pretty sophisticated group, but some of them may not be as familiar with the State Department of Planning because number one, there's a kind of confusion about the difference between planning and zoning, and especially because local departments are called planning and zoning <laugh> . So why do you need planning? There's no State Department of zoning. So, you know, talk us through a little bit about what's the difference between planning and zoning, the degree to which land use is generally a local responsibility. So tell us a little bit about what the department does, what it doesn't do, and your relationship with local governments as far as land use goes.
Speaker 2:Great. Well that's, that's a lot. So <crosstalk> , it's a lot now . Well,
Speaker 1:The floor is yours. I'll now be quiet. <laugh> . Yeah ,
Speaker 2:Let's start with the department, which I am so honored to be leading and to be part of Governor Moore's administration. And, you know, we have just an amazing cabinet to work with across the entire state system. The Department of Planning is something that a lot of people do not understand. And in fact, there are multiple aspects to it that I really, I I like to summarize as our past, present, and future. Because we have the Maryland Historic Trust, which is nearly half of us as an agency. And when we think about, you know, existing communities and really valuing our heritage and we have to understand our past , I think, to succeed with where we go in the future. And so I'm, I'm actually thrilled that Maryland Stark Trust is, is part of the Maryland Department of Planning. And even within that we have Jefferson Patterson Park Museum down in Calvert County, which is where the states entire archeological lab is. So that's a big chunk of us and they have folks out, out on the ground in terms of our heritage areas that I chair and, and those types of activities. In terms of the, the present as I refer to that is a lot of the work we do reaching out with local governments and essentially helping to really support them. I think on both ends of the equation, I feel like planning is a discipline that is a little misunderstood. So I'll come back to your question on planning versus versus zoning in a minute, but I think in terms of how we can influence the present, it's to really, truly help with ensuring much continuity across the system, across the state and how we, how we think about the field of planning and the disciplines. 'cause it is very multidisciplinary and that often happens through the comprehensive plan. The other way that it happens in terms of the work that we do current day-to-Day is that we get very involved in reviewing a lot of, not only comprehensive plans, but working with other agencies in terms of our, our team is very multidisciplinary and so we review a whole array of other products and plans. We're involved, I think I'm on almost 40 commissions and so we kind of get pulled into a lot of different topics and related to that, because I don't wanna dwell on all of this too much is what I think of as the future. So we have to sort of make sure there's as much support and help as we can, you know, in terms of creating really sustainable, thriving communities across the system. But then how are we really thinking about the future? So for instance, our data and projections team and our geographical, you know, geo information systems group, we're really very focused on one of the governor's primary priority areas, which is data driven decision making . And we not only have an entire socioeconomic data team that works with the US Census and others to really ensure we've got really the facts in terms of, well for instance, I just came from a hearing today around the Enough Act and really looking at childhood poverty. We produce that map <laugh> in terms of sort of what does that really look like in our state? And then combining that with all these amazing tools around geospatial, now we can really get a pretty good handle on, you know , the real issues, the correlations, the overlaps. And then where I wanna go more of is scenario planning, because the world's changing too fast, even for comp plans right now. We have to really be able to be nimble, be adaptive , really understand the various scenarios. So I'll stop there in terms of the whole mix of what we do. To your point on planning versus zoning, I like to think of planning as sort of the, the visionary guidebook. You know, it's the playbook, it's the handbook of sort of what do we want our community to be, whereas zoning is really sort of the regs of the things that we really care about. Within that, there's a certain set of more regulatory aspects typically that's around height use and density. I like to simplify it as really those key areas, unfortunately. And I, and I, and I do wanna touch on this, Chuck , it's been nearly a hundred years since Euclidean zoning. Exactly. Which is single purpose zoning Yep . Came to be. Yep . And I think we've taken that to such an extreme over the a hundred years that that's something maybe we can talk about further in the interview. Sure . But that would be a role for planning, is to help lead in terms of best practices and form-based codes and other ways that we can really be thinking about how do we create thriving livable communities.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So talk a little bit about the services you provide to local governments. And you mentioned comprehensive plans, then I know that the locals jurisdictions leverage that data and you help guide comprehensive plans. That's what's where it all starts. Right? Take us through a typical land use development process in a , you know, most of our counties starting with comprehensive plan. What services would you provide to them? How do they use that data to come up with their rezoning of the zoning ordinances that follow? And then we'll follow up on Euclid and what that means. 'cause when , when people hear Euclid and they think geometry, so we'll clarify that in a minute, but talk a little bit about the comprehensive planning process, your role in it, because it's not like the state doesn't have a role. I guess that's the, the thread, the through line here, if you will. When we talk about the state's role in land use, a lot of people say, well, land use is all local. Well, it's not, and it hasn't been for decades and decades. State has a very robust role in land use planning and male land use decisions. And then we'll talk a little bit about where we think that might go in the future. But again, you like how I asked like five or six questions that went in your writing furiously Thank you. But that you could , you understand the through line here, right? That , that's I like to follow, lemme
Speaker 2:Just first of all say there is no one size fits all in terms of what we do. Sure . Exactly Right. While there is a elements of a comprehensive plan that we look for in , in every comprehensive plan, we actually don't have authority to basically say, we don't, we don't accept your comp plan <laugh>. Right? Right . We're there more of guidance and in terms of the, the, the no one size fits all , we, that relates also to our role because for instance , um, you know, our more rural areas like the Eastern shore or you know, mountain Maryland, we might get more involved. Not, not to lean in, but so much the fact that there's areas that don't have a planner at all in their municipalities. Sure . Oh , for sure. Yeah. And so we actually have offices out on the lower shore and in mountain Maryland to do a little bit more handholding. I mean, I think that that's something that we have to, you know, think about how that works more effectively, maybe more efficiently moving forward. And then we also do, for instance, training for planning commissioners who are required to go through some type of training because these are our volunteer citizen planners as we call them. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And so we get involved from that standpoint also. So I think the core things are offering training, offering ways to sort of educate, offering the ability to advance best practices to lead by example, lead in those in those particular ways in terms of ensuring that best practices and planning are being applied as much as possible. I think the best way the state has an influence, and this is what I'm looking forward to in the more administration, is to really work more collaboratively across the agencies to ensure we're all rowing in the same direction, so to speak. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Because we do have an ability through funding, through other types of regulatory to ensure that those things are all complimentary and are helping to guide what I would call sustainable growth in our state. And so it's kind of an indirect way of helping to guide growth as far as Maryland Department of Planning is concerned. But then our ability to be an influencer in terms of sort of bringing some of those best practices to the forefront as far as a comprehensive planning process, really as a planner, I have to say, it all starts with community engagement. And really the locals need to do that, but we are obviously there to support them if needed. But it's really framing and defining a process that works best for a particular area and how they function. You know, because sometimes, like I said, again, you may have a more dense population center. How do you get to people? How do you ensure they're engaged? You know? Now we, since the pandemic actually I think are engaging more people because we can reach , come through online resources. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . So there, there's a lot bundled in there, but maybe that hopefully touched on a few things you were looking for there. Yeah,
Speaker 1:For sure. And so just taking us one step back to tie it up in a nice little bow when we speak of comprehensive planning, correct me if I'm wrong, Marilyn does require that, right? That, that is by law. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> local jurisdictions must adopt a comprehensive plan. And that happens, that's the big overview. And then the zoning ordinance and actually implements those planning decisions. And also there are certain things that the state requires every comprehensive plan to contain. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like, can you give us some examples? And this is again, to tie in the relationship between the state and the local good jurisdictions. Right? So by requiring, number one, requiring comprehensive plans, and number two, requiring that certain things be in those that are then gonna be implemented in the zoning ordinances. So what kinds of things does Maryland already require? Be in these, again, required comprehensive plans ? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , just so our listeners get a kind of an idea of what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And Chuck , I don't have the whole list in front of me, but I know , I think it's, the word suggests comprehensive planning means that we really are looking at all the elements that make a community. So we are looking at housing, environment, economy, you know, all of the pieces of the puzzle that make communities function. And so those are all in there. And that involves at varying levels data. So communities really understand what is their existing condition, what are their trends been , particularly something like population growth. So there's also, you know, the demographics of a community to really understand those trends. Are we growing, are we shrinking? What are the age breakdowns? So a lot of that is informative, particularly for something like the housing element and that component.
Speaker 1:I really wanted to get to the housing element. Exactly. Get
Speaker 2:That right . And so I guess it's, it's kind of one of the reasons why I love planning as a profession. I think of us as the integrators. It's sort of like, rather than an agency just focused on environment or just focused on housing or just a piece, we're the ones that get to sort of ensure that all of those pieces are intersecting and balancing. And are we thinking about everything when we really look at what does it take to make a , a community thrive? And even if it's growing or if it's shrinking, what does that balance or what should it be? And where do we wanna go with that? Because if you're a singular in any of that, it just doesn't work. I mean, communities just don't function well that way. So that's, that's part of that lens we put there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And of course students like , uh, and, and if you haven't spent a lot of time in Maryland, when you come here and you try to get your, wrap your head around what local governments look like in Maryland, it, it probably makes your head spin. I mean, I grew up in New Jersey and we have counties and we have townships and you know, that was pretty much it. And then I came down to Maryland and I had to learn all about charter counties and the city and non-charter counties and commission, county commissioners, county charters. And then I went, when I started working for the general assembly, there's a whole handbook on just local government. What can they do, what can charter counties do, what can non-charter counties do? And then you have local bills in the general assembly because only the general assembly can do things for certain counties. It's crazy. It really is. So it makes your head spin if you're not into this stuff. And this is a good example. 'cause if you do pull up the list, there are different elements for charter counties and non-charter counties. Right. And so, you know, pollution control, natural resources, preservation areas, workforce housing plan elements, things like that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . So just wanted people to understand broadly speaking that a lot of these decisions are not made in isolation by local governments. That the state does have a role at the high level that comprehensive plans have to have these elements and then they have to implement them through the zoning process. And so when people say, oh, well all, all land use is local. Yeah , no it isn't. That's the takeaway here, right?
Speaker 2:Well, yes and no. I mean Okay , good .
Speaker 1:I like it .
Speaker 2:<laugh> Yeah. I , we help provide the framework. Right. Okay . Of all of those That's fair . Those elements and where there is county versus municipality jurisdiction or whatever, you know, I think that it's important that all the counties are addressing all of these issues consistently, but in the end it's their plan. Oh
Speaker 1:Yeah. Sure,
Speaker 2:Sure, sure. Now where I think the state has, like I mentioned earlier, the ability I think is through influence. And that is through everything from transportation planning to housing funding, a whole variety of factors that I think can help steer, guide, influence certain things. But I , I like to think of it as a framework that we ensure that there is sort of at least a baseline now, I was out Howard County, Montgomery County, Baltimore County with their master plans and some of the work they're doing, I mean, every, everybody takes it on differently, but as long as that framing is there consistently, then we can at least be assured that they've considered all of the different issues. Yeah. Yeah .
Speaker 1:So let's go back defining terms. You mentioned Euclidean zoning. Can you explain that a little bit? I
Speaker 2:Will. And this is probably my professor hack coming on here .
Speaker 1:No , please. I'm gonna love it. I'm sure. Go ahead, <laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's , it's really fascinating. I mean, one of the first classes I used to teach in my course Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> was around the history of planning in a hundred years. Yeah . And to really look at how we have evolved and why
Speaker 1:It's fascinating stuff, isn't it ? Yeah . It's
Speaker 2:Very fascinating. Yeah . And just to even reference back to your earlier point at what I've seen in Maryland is that there is a tendency to be very additive and keep adding layers. Yeah. Yeah . But not necessarily taking away things. And it's become overly complicated. And I think that's something we're trying to address in, in this administration. But to the point of Euclidean nearly a hundred years ago, okay , there wasn't zoning, it's not how we did things. We basically did have some nuisance type uses adjacencies, and basically they dealt with them item by item. And so Euclidean came up as a way of more standardizing really over a hundred years ago what was needed in terms of some separation of uses, you know , housing from heavy industrial over the years that's evolved to creating this situation where we have these strict boundaries of uses. Right . And we've actually moved away from what we're actually pretty functional communities at one time to very car oriented communities. 'cause when you start separating those uses, you create more of a need and dependency on the automobile, which all evolved during that time also. And so I, I like to think of it as older urbanism actually worked very well because you had mixed abuses and you had people who could walk to the corner store, children could walk to school. Everybody didn't need a car to get anywhere. And I think this has just sort of grown almost outta control at this point. There have been a lot of places around the country that are now adopting and, and putting forth more updated best practices form-based codes. Just one of them . There's, there's others that I think are beginning to realize that some of that earlier zoning codes that we've created are , are kind of outta control. You have to be an attorney to sort through what you can do and what you can't do. And it's really kind of, I think, slowed us down and made us less adaptive and nimble. And if we look at the recent pandemic, it's a perfect example. Yeah. Markets are changing so fast right now that if we wait what I know to be as much as four years sometimes Yeah . For a comprehensive plan to actually get adopted and, and maybe add another two years on that just to go through the process where it's already outdated. Yeah. You know, look at things like scooters that have come to the market recently, looked at a whole variety of, of things that are coming at us that are disruptive market changes. We have to figure out, I think as a society and, you know, the regulations that kind of, I think control create those boundaries of what we do. And we don't do, I think we have to think about them entirely differently. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> what that will mean for Maryland. It's a big long system that's gonna take a long time to adapt. So where I see the state, our state agency in that place is to lead, to create, I think a market poll strategy by introducing these best practices, trying to create tools and methods that are kind of a leveler so that not just the more advanced counties, for instance, have access to some of those tools, but everyone has access to those tools and, and data. And so those are some of the things that I, I feel like we can play a pretty big role in helping our state really come to a more adaptive approach to how we think about growth and development in this time. That's only gonna keep growing of not only disruptors and market changes, but also disruptors from it , from everything from climate change to a whole variety of things that, that are happening faster than our current policies can keep up with. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think there's, there's a lot of resources out there on the history of zoning. And last September I interviewed Nolan Gray who wrote , um, yeah . Arbitrary lines. That's right . Younger than I thought he would be. But it's a, it's a fantastic book and I I highly recommend it . And, and so just to go back real quick, the, the term the Euclid was a is a village in Ohio and it's 1926. And was Ambler Realty who bought a parcel of property in the village of Euclid, Ohio. And like you said, they had attempted to un zone the property. They wanted to build an apartment building on this property that they owned rightfully and legally . And the village didn't want this apartment building. And so , uh, rezoned it so that it was prohibited the use for which Ambler Realty wanted to make of the property. And at the time it really wasn't established as you mentioned, that local governments had that authority to just pull a pro proposed use right out from under you. And so it did go to the Supreme Court. And that that case is how you, as you mentioned, established local authority over land use decisions for pretty much to telling us what we can do with our private property. And so it is, it was a landmark decision 1926. And then, as a matter of fact, just as an aside within that is a footnote in the Euclid case where the Supreme Court actually said the re one of the, one of the reasons they upheld the zoning ordinance was that Euclid had a , a significant interest in that because apartments are a cancer on a community. Right. And so they had every right to prohibit development of an apartment building in that community 'cause it was gonna poison the entire community. So, and then , and then when you read that, the history, and you know this, but it was really used as a tool in New York and Berkeley, California, Berkeley, California of all places, everybody thinks of it as, you know, woo-hoo. And, and Progressive and all that zoning ordinance, by their own terms were designed to keep what were then known as Orientals. I'm putting it out in air quotes if Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> for our listeners from moving into Berkeley. That , and so, and same thing in New York, which does not have a comprehensive plan to this day, by the way, they have zoning, but they don't actually have any comprehensive plan for New York City. But those were designed to keep people separated, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and , and economic interests. Yeah. Now, none of us, as you said, segregation abuses certainly a , a perfectly legitimate use of zoning and planning, again, more planning than zoning, right , right . To keep uses a part that should not be next to each other or adjacent as you mentioned. So I think the history is really critical to understand it how we got here. Don't do , do you agree with that?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. And, and I think, and first of all, I love knowing Gray's work. Uh , yeah . Where we're at, and this is what we're trying to, I think we have to address head on . And this is, this is that notion of I framed earlier, past, present, future. Yeah. You know , understand your past to really understand where you need to go, not only in historic districts, but other ways . But we've really gotten to a point where in some cases back then, and even now, zonings been weaponized. It's been used as a way of really, I think, purposefully creating barriers of what we feel we don't want. And so I feel like that's something that is really has to be looked at pretty carefully and , and understood better. And there are some places in Maryland that are doing that extremely well. And I think others that we just need to kind of help create that background because even as we're looking at the governor's housing package, we're trying to reset <laugh> things that basically have sort of gone too far in one direction. And I think that generally this is one of 'em in terms of sort of how we've approached this and use this tool that I don't think, or shouldn't, shouldn't be used to the extreme that's been used in, in communities because mixed use communities ultimately are probably some of the most thriving, healthy, absolutely sustainable lasting communities there are anywhere, whether they speak small or large, you reduce auto use, you know, you improve health and walkability, safety's improved. I mean, I'm a big Jane Jacobs fan, that was one of my required readings in my , in my class. Right . You know, the whole eyes on the street, societal impacts, I mean, I could go on and on. But we basically created a system through this over the a hundred years where we undermined the ability for healthy mixed use communities to function. And we create , created a lot of negative impacts as a result. So I'm sure you and I could chat more on that, but I'll let you ,
Speaker 1:I was just gonna say, you know, that I can't wait for us to actually be able to talk about this in greater detail. But first of all, so where are we ? This is get real estate . Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . So let's get real for a minute. How are we doing? You are really, like you said, testifying on the, on the package. We are 100% behind it, as you know. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And we're all on board and , you know, Oregon repealed single family zoning. Right? I mean, and that's happened around the country. So, you know, these , these are not, these are not radical notions. They're, they're not popular with many segments of even our own membership, by the way. I mean, if we're, we're getting real here. So it's not just the cities and counties in Mako and MML and you know, it's, it's, it's the neighbors, right. And the NIMBYs. And it's also some of our own members who are here. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and , and protecting the status quo. So how are we, 'cause we we're on board here Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , we need to make the case. Or how are we doing, we're around the country. Are we holding up , uh, examples of how this can be done in the Republic stands? You know, I think that's part of the problem with us. We're so parochial at times, Uhhuh that we don't really see the bigger picture. And I have to tell you , I've been saying this out loud and I'm not afraid of it for a progressive state. We're a little bit behind the curve here. And so, you know, give us a little perspective on how we're doing. How you say that without making too many enemies, you know? 'cause you wanna be forceful , but you also don't wanna make people feel even worse about it. You know what I'm saying? So that's the Yeah , that's the political and the advocacy piece of it. So how are we doing?
Speaker 2:I , well, I don't have that barometer, but I would like to <laugh> , but I would like to address that is that to your point about we we're behind. Yeah . And , and that saddens me because I I agree. Us too . Because Marilyn was a national leader in smart growth. Right. When that
Speaker 1:Oh , I was gonna talk about that too
Speaker 2:25 years ago. Right, exactly. <inaudible> and smart work . We were a national leader and I wanted to get us back there. I mean, I do think Marilyn needs to lead the way again. And where I think we do that is through what I'm already reframing, is to move from smart growth, which was very successful about where we build, right. And we start creating more, you know, clustered approach and trying to preserve our, some of our open space. And I think we did great with all of that. And it was a good thing that where we need to evolve toward is basically how I think of as sustainable growth in that we have to grow. And I know, and this is with my developer background and roots too . I, I know we can grow in a more sustainable way. And it's more about moving from the where to the how. Yeah . And in the, how we start getting at these issues of things like mixed use communities, density, you know, we put in place these pfas that I think were very effective and we resulted in kind of almost a , a down zoning outside of those Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But then we didn't counter that with an upzoning inside. And that's part of what the housing Affordability and Expansion Act is trying to do is essentially correct. Something that that really didn't happen and needs to happen. And so it's all of those things of, and when I think of sustainability and I'm, my whole career has been around, that was my class. Yes . <laugh> . But it was around the whole sustainable community , sustainable development. And for me, the key word there is balance. Yeah . In that we should grow. We need to grow. And I absolutely believe that we can do that in a way that supports our economy, you know, our social systems and still protects our environmental and natural systems. And some of that is absolutely gonna be based on how we, how we think about planning practices and the regulatory or have we gone too far in terms of the regulatory side of that ? And trying to think more regionally also,
Speaker 1:How is it that the entire Baltimore region isn't working together? Baltimore, Baltimore County, Hartford, Howard , uh, Anne Arundel. We had a lovely young woman was gonna interview to work in Annapolis and , uh, didn't have a car. She said , well , how are you gonna get to Annapolis? And she was in Washington, but it didn't matter if she could just have easily been from Baltimore. Oh, I'll take public transportation. No, you won't. No. How sad is that, that we don't have public transportation? No , you cannot get from Baltimore to Annapolis. Maybe you can, I don't know, probably take you six hours. But, you know, that's the regional approach. Uh , it's staggering to me. It's , and it's, it's really kind of a shame, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean my, you know , way back when, when I was doing language law and all of that, you know, my, my degree is in urban and regional planning. Right . I really believe that regional planning. And I do think at the planner level, I know that the planning directors do try to work together on a regional basis. Yeah .
Speaker 1:Yeah . They , yeah .
Speaker 2:That how we move forward as a state is, is gonna have to really look at our regions because the political lines, you know, our economy's just, so this is that disruptor thing I was talking about. Exactly . Holly economies are working so much differently now. And you have also the combination of people who are now hybrid working part-time at home. There's so many factors that we have to think more, more regionally in terms of whether it be employment opportunities or housing. All of those things come together and sure, we want our community we live in to, to work well, but you can't detach it from the region around it. And I think that's another aspect of where, at the state level, Maryland Department of Planning as an agency, I think has an opportunity to lean in also in terms of really just proactively, you know, pulling together. And that's gonna be one of my activities for this year, is to really try to pull together more regional round tables and meetings with , um, the planning directors and, and really try to better understand. So when I said early on I didn't, I didn't have that exact barometer. I need , I, I need to do some listing. Yeah . I need to get out there. I know that I see things, I observe, I'm , you know, I live on the Eastern shore and Chestertown and you know, I see what's going on. Even though I lived for years in Pittsburgh before here and DC before that. So I, I noticed things. I attempted to do a development project here on the Eastern shore. I firsthand experienced those. Oh wow.
Speaker 1:Good , good , good .
Speaker 2:Put that four year permitting delays that were not needed. So I I, I've lived it. Yeah . On a variety of levels. And I think we need to start by bringing together on a regional scale, the folks on the ground, what are they seeing, what are they hearing, what are the barriers? Really try to understand how we can be working more closely together. And, and that's a big part of my, what'll be my year two on the job, is to be getting out there and hearing more about what's going on.
Speaker 1:Perfect. Wow . Well , uh, we can go on and on <laugh> , I can get that sense, but unfortunately we have to leave it there. But thank you so much. This is just the beginning of what we hope to be a long and productive conversation and relationship. So again, thank you for being here.
Speaker 2:Once again, thank you for the opportunity. Good luck to you all, and I appreciate all your support. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Okay. And to our listeners, thank you for the privilege of your time. This is Get Real Estate, the Maryland Realtors podcast. I'm Chuck Caskey . Marilyn Realtors, CEO. Thanks as always. To our esteemed producer, Joshua Woodson , please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Like us, share us, give us five stars if we've earned them. And most importantly, give us feedback, including guests you'd like us to invite or topics to explore. So, be kind, stay safe. I'll leave you with two thoughts today. One from Warren Buffet, the Sage of Omaha, who said, someone is sitting in a shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. And that's what we're planned for. Yogi Berra, Sage of everywhere else said, if you don't know where you were going, you'll end up someplace else.
