FakeID Podcast
FakeID Podcast
Navigating Race and Nationality
How do your race and nationality influence your identity, sense of self, and the way you live your life? In this episode Maheen curates a series of intimate conversations from a live event in Brooklyn. Listen as attendees share their unique experiences and reflections on race and nationality, exploring how these aspects shape who they are.
Hello, everyone. This is my Hayne Sohail, and you're listening to season two, a fake ID podcast. I want you to imagine this. It's 7:00 PM in November in Brooklyn, New York. And you come across a poster that says fake ID live event. You decide to check it out. You go into this warehouse, like experience. And you notice that it is a room full of very inquisitive and curious people, having very deep conversations. You start to talk to some people and realize that everyone is really interested in the topic of identity. You're learning about who they are, what brought them to this space. And you start to share your own story. You noticed that at the end of the room, there's four different rooms with different themes. One of the rooms is named race and nationality. You're curious. So you walk into that room. The room is small. Only enough space for one person to sit. There's a lot of posters. Of different countries and flags. And you notice that there's a recording experience in front of you, a laptop and a mic. You're curious. So you hit play. This episode reflects the stories of people that attended the live event in Brooklyn, New York, almost two years ago, and left their stories in this Ray room. I hope you enjoy.
Maheen (2021):Hello, hello. Welcome to Fake ID's live experience. I'm so glad that you're able to attend and join us today. First of all, I want you to know that everything that happens in this room is fully anonymous, so I want you to be fully at ease. All right. Now that being said, let's talk about why you're in this room. So you chose the race and nationality room, a topic that's very, very tough. I feel like all the topics are tough, but this one is also very, very tough. So, and I can tell you a bit about how race and nationality matter to my identity. I think more than being a South Asian woman who seems to love all cultures and try to express my global mindedness, that aside nationality has been something that I've changed my thoughts on a lot. I used to be very patriotic as a Pakistani. In fact, I said that in one of the fake ID episodes. And now, I have completely switched. And I think it's because some things happened where I realized that my nationality was getting in the way of how I was perceiving other people. And I had to make a decision of whether I stood up for those things or not, whether that reflected who I was or not, and how much pride I wanted to show for this country that I was raised in. I very much care about this country still, but... Do I, do I think I reflect all of its values? I don't think so. And, and I don't even know if the values are as pure as they used to be when the country was founded. And so, I've been trying to disassociate myself from that brand a little bit. while still being great, showing my gratitude, I think, towards, towards what being Baksani has enabled for me. So that's how, a bit of how nationality matters to my identity, but I would love to learn from you. Of all the rooms, why did you choose this room on race and nationality?
Speaker 1:I guess I chose this room because it's the number one thing I've had to confront and question myself about since I moved from home in St. Kitts to America. In terms of many things, of course, but mainly because it's the number one thing I've been questioning since I've left where I call home. So that's the reason for choosing this room.
Speaker 2:[Speaker 2] so I chose this room, raising nationality because I think it's the part that I struggle to understand the most. It has confused the most about my identity, but also has been a critical part of forming my identity.
Speaker 3:Okay, race and nationality. I would love to reflect on identity when it comes to that because notice that the fake ID podcast is very much from that perspective and me from being a person who has moved around a lot. From the moment I was really young to now, I think part of that experience has made me reject nationality as a identifier, as a quality of who I am. My nationality and my race, for that matter, is a bit of a shortcut for a lot of different experiences, values, ideals. And as someone that's moved around a lot, I don't maybe consciously, pull from that. set of ideals. And instead, I have taken pride on discovering those ideals for myself. And that's, it's a bit of a, an attempt to have a bit of agency or control over the, the things that makes us who we are, makes me who I am.[Speaker 4] yeah, so race and nationality, play a huge part in my identity. I am Pakistani by ethnicity, but I guess my nationality, because I was born and raised in, the United States is, my nationality is American. For me, I think I've been conflicted between my Pakistani side and my American side for many years. there was a saying in the 90s when I was, you know, peak childhood. They used to say, A B C D, American born confused desi. And so I don't think I'm alone at all in being conflicted between my Pakistani or desi identity with my American identity. I'm proudly American, and I am grateful for the opportunities that this country has given me but obviously in the past few years, we've had this rise in nationalism and I've kind of stepped away from it. Being a proud American, every time I see an American flag, you know, I get some sort of feeling. I think it's important to have nationalism in your life and be proud of where you're from. but you can be a proud American and still want change.
Maheen:If you don't mind me asking, what is your race or nationality and do you feel a strong affinity towards either of them? Why or why not?
Speaker 1:so my race is black. not African American, just black. and my nationality is Kittitian, which is what you are if you were born in Sankits, a super tiny Caribbean island. in the in the West Indies, it's like 68 square miles with population of 58, 000 people. And, I do feel like a close connection. I was born and raised there until I was like maybe 20 years old. but yeah, I do feel a close affinity to. My nationality more than my race, I think the only thing that my race is sort of like a constant reminder of is like the struggles that black Americans have faced over the years, because I myself, as somebody growing up in the Caribbean, my parents, my grandparents didn't really face any of the inequalities that Americans have had to face because of racism. And so there's a level of empathy that I play for other Blacks across the world that experience things that I never experienced until I moved to America. So I have experienced racism, and I think it's in those moments where I do experience racism that I remember the connection to me being Black and others being Black who have faced these sort of, oppressive situations. But it's only in those moments that I really tie myself to that part of my identity. but outside of those moments, the first thing that comes to mind in sharing who I am is the fact that I'm a Kittitian, the fact that I'm from Saint Kitts, that I'm from the Caribbean, and, you know, I want to share my music, the things that we do, the accent, the things that we enjoy in life and how we live life compared to other cultures and people and places. so that's what I tend to anchor on more so than the, the race that I am, which was something that I had to like, deal with once moving to America because race plays such a big role in everything. And even in like filling out forms, you always have to identify your race. And it's like, why, why is that important? it's just been a thing we had to sort of identify myself as not just a designer, but a black designer, a black this or a black that, which to me it's complete nonsense. And I wish that wasn't the case. I just want to be a designer, you know, that's all I want to be. you know, if you say a designer from the Caribbean, great. But I don't feel like there should be a need to say the black designer
Speaker 2:I'm korean. I was born in korea. My nationality is also korean. There are parts of being korean that I associate A lot with and parts that I don't sometimes I do Feel like i'm never fully korean, whatever that means Or i'm never fully American. I definitely don't necessarily associate myself with Korean conservative values like more of the patriarchal, ideologies or The stress on education, and the stress on labels, like getting into good schools, and having a great job, and all of that. But there are things like caring about the community, caring about the elderly, And also just, like, knowing how to have fun. I Feel like Koreans know how to have fun. that is like very ingrained in my genes as a proud Korean.
Speaker 3:So in terms of race and nationality, I felt that, my race doesn't define me. My nationality doesn't define me. Yet, people insist that it should. People insist that I am a certain type of person because I come from a certain type of place, or because I look a certain way. And, I don't think, no matter what I would look like, the choices that I've made throughout my life is what defines me. And that's what drives me, and that's where I find a community. People that have made similar choices. All of the things that come from moving, from, switching jobs, moving to a new city. You know, abandoning a friendship and starting a new one. These choices, to me, define me more than, where I happen to have grown up. What my depicments on my skin, tell the world about who I am. in some ways this rejection, this appetite for change, is what's defined me more than anything else. Like that, that itself is an identity. Someone who has. Constantly trying to pursue different stimulus, by moving, by changing jobs, by changing careers, by interacting with different people, by finding new interests. Some people call that being the citizen of the world, but it's, you know, if anything, the airport is. My home, you know, that transient place that is not in either the city that you're in or a city that you're going to is this in between that feels more comfortable to me, feels like the great equalizer
Speaker 4:I guess my race is, I'm South Asian Pakistani, and so I've been considering myself a person of color, and I, and I say that, and I feel as though... Some of my black friends may not consider me a person of color.'cause I'm a fair skinned Pakistani person and, and More people have been talking about colorism and so me as a Pakistani, I'm still very different than, as a fair skinned Pakistani than a dark skinned Pakistani. race is something I've thought about it every day because I was raised in a very white town. It's a white town in New Jersey. Where the majority of people are Irish and Italian.
Maheen:I'd Love to if you've ever felt misunderstood due to a race or nationality. Can you tell me about a time that might have happened?
Speaker 1:I think I'm misunderstood at times because of simple things like for example my My accent if I try really hard to talk the way I would if I was back home, sometimes people have difficulty understanding the things I'm saying, especially when it comes to certain vowels and, letters. But, other than that, the only time where I sort of feel, where I'm not sure if people get me, it would more have to do with the fact that I'm black. Because, like... my culture back home is a certain type of way. And as I said, like, my experiences are not the same as my Black counterparts from America. And so sometimes I don't necessarily feel like I fit in with the Black people here in America. You know, like people here grew up thinking about race, consuming things about race and facing racial discrimination. And all of that is sort of new to me since I moved to America about 10 years ago, compared to people who have seen that all their lives from birth, and so I think sometimes I, I don't want to be misunderstood as somebody that. doesn't want to be part of the community because clearly I'm black. and I appreciate being part of the black community, considering the, the history and, uh, um, the narrative behind how we got to where we are today. you know, like even back home in St. Kitts, there's certain stereotypes of what it means to not be black. Like, if I listen to certain music, like rock or EDM or some of those, genres. You know, I have people at home that would say why are you acting so white, you know Even though I'm talking right now if some of my friends back home heard me They'll be like why you sound like a Yankee, you know And so there are a lot of things that I do know where even people at home I feel like I will be misunderstood by because I've broadened my horizons. I've had different experiences I'm no longer in a in a tiny tiny Caribbean island
Speaker 2:I think I still get misunderstood a ton. Like I said, because I'm, I'm, I was born in Korea, but I was raised in the States for more than 90 percent of my life. I associate with both worlds. and I think depends, depending on the group of people that I interact with, they mistake me for how Korean or how American I am. For example, if I'm hanging out with my Korean friends, some of they will think that I'm not Korean enough, or I'm too whitewashed, so to speak. And if I'm hanging out with my American friends, I'm always the token Asian friend, the token Asian girlfriend. So in that sense, I don't feel, I feel mistaken. I don't feel like my full personality is being taken into account.
Speaker 3:Now I look at Other people that share my same nationality, and I don't see myself in them. I see myself as someone different. I see people that live in the same city that I live, and I see myself different. And that is a bad feeling. It's like a feeling of inadequacy. A feeling of, I'm not living how I should be living. I'm not doing what I should be doing. I'm not who I should be. And it's taken a long time to... Kind of put that to rest and find new definition of myself, the new version of myself. And it's that transient version the one that feels the most authentic.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely. As a Pakistani child, post 9 11. I think many years of my life I was misunderstood and my race was questioned and I think that's a huge part of my identity and I've recently started identifying myself as a, Muslim man who was raised, you know, and hit puberty post 9 11 and that was a huge part of my life. And so I remember questions. After 9 11 on the, on the school bus, I was around 11 years old and, you know, children were asking me if I was a terrorist because of my background and my race and because I'm Pakistani. So, I don't think I'm alone there. I think that was a very common, thing to happen in 2001, 2001,
Maheen:the last question I have for you is, if one day you were to have kids, how would you want future generations to feel about your race or nationality? Would it be so much how you feel? Do you think it'll be, it'll be different?
Speaker 1:well, I do have a kid I mean, she's only three years old and has, has already sort of developed her own sense of what beauty is by watching, you know, princess type shows on Disney and, on TV. And her idea of beauty is long blonde hair, and she thinks she's not pretty or beautiful because of, She doesn't see what, what she sees on TV, she doesn't see in the mirror. And so she, at three years old, like, it baffles me, like, that she starts to think to herself, she's not beautiful because she doesn't look like what she's seeing. Which to me, has sort of heightened, my responsibility in helping her to understand the, the blackness. That she has, you know, like in a sense, like everyone to understand what it means to be a black girl, to be a human being that looks different to other people, and starting that at a much younger age than I would have expected, I would have had to start that, you know, so I've just been doing different things like buying books with black kids and limiting her time spent watching these princess Disney movies. and you know, just constantly encouraging her to think positively let her know she's beautiful let her know she's loved and To help her understand that beauty shows up in different ways Not just in your long hair and your skin color And I think that's a intentional task that my wife and I have sort of been trying to accomplish but also, like, I do want her to know about her. nationality coming from a Kittish and family coming from a Caribbean family and sort of introducing the different things to her in terms of, you know, the way we cook, the way we talk, our values and morals and how we sort of put those things out there into the world and making sure she has an understanding of them, but also grows up in the same way that my wife and I was raised. so, you know, as she gets older, it'll be an intentional thing for us to take her back home as often as we can to help her just to understand the luxury of ease and opportunity and convenience that living in America brings to her life versus being back formed, but still having the love and appreciation, for where she's from. and I think that's something that will carry her a long way in life.
Speaker 4:I think I would want them to visit Pakistan with me at a young age. although I was born and raised in the United States. At age seven I went to Pakistan and that was, that's a huge part of my identity as well. I remember clearly going to Pakistan at age seven and feeling Pakistani. And feeling like there was a piece of me that was missing. And that piece had become whole. And again, I went to Pakistan a few times, a few years later, and I felt that I actually haven't been to Pakistan in almost 20 years. And talking about this is getting me a little emotional. I understand that there's a part of me that is still Pakistani, even though I'm very Americanized. And I think going back to Pakistan would fulfill that part of me.
Speaker 3:I think it's important that there's people who find, find themselves outside of that. It's probably, you know, people that don't find themselves defined by any gender, whether it's female or male or whatever it is. Just people that find themselves identified by the lack of gender or like the la in this case, the lack of nationality or the lack of race, the ambiguity that comes from being a little bit of everything and a little bit of everywhere. I find that to be the most defining characteristic, in my identity.[Speaker 4]
Maheen Sohail (2024):Thank you for listening to fake ID. This is Maheen speaking from the comfort of her room. Two years later, after these episodes were recorded. At the fake ID live event in Brooklyn. And listening to these reflections on race and nationality. It's really making me reflect on where I currently stand on this topic myself. For me. I really felt like I had shed this notion of race and nationality, and honestly, really siding with one of the perspectives here about being a citizen of the world, being a global citizen. And appreciating and loving all cultures. But really focusing on the individual. choices that I've made and the people that I've met that have influenced, The direction that my life has gone in. And as a result created my identity. However, as I go through more and more experiences the last few years, it's become apparent to me that no matter how much I try to shed this idea of nationalism, patriotism. This idea of not being. Brown or to Asian or to whitewashed per se. That really embracing, being. Beyond that. That, that is just not true for me. I still have inherent biases or perspectives or thoughts that are ingrained so deeply in me that even if I pretend to say that I. I'm not a person who's like that. Those things come up Just a simple example is, you know, I'm someone who believes is not patriotic anymore. I care a lot about my culture. I appreciate it are respected, but I don't necessarily. Care for Bhagavan as a country, as much anymore as I used to. I was recently watching a Bollywood movie about India and Pakistan. And just the way Pakistan was portrayed, even though it was portrayed in a positive lens, really took me off and it almost lit a fire in me on why. They were communicating or talking about the country in ways that weren't accurate and you know, like who cares it's entertainment at the end of the day? Just enjoy it. Maheen. And it made me realize. Aye. Believe that I am not this person, but a part of me very much instinctly here reacts in that way. Because it was a part of my identity for so long, and I haven't really shed it as well as I thought I had. And so that's been really fascinating for me to observe. I still take pride in the fact that I am this. Pakistani girl who surfs or the south Asian girl who serves. And when I go out in the water, I don't see many other south Asian women doing that. And you know, this idea of like, I don't want to be a black designer. I'm just a designer. I don't necessarily do that. Sometimes I do go lean into this. Person of color card. As one of the interviewees had mentioned, it's almost like a shortcut that it provides to like, maybe. Describe something with more color, I guess. Anyway, that's not necessarily to say that one way is right or the other, but my reflection on this episode is that it's really quite a skill that. I don't think you can completely ignore. Where you were born or the pigment of your skin, however, you know, maybe you could work really hard at shutting that layer and really focusing on the other dimensions. As for me. That hasn't really worked out. And I think it is something I need to figure out in order to start making some bigger decisions in my life. Like. What values does the person that I marry, what values should they, also respect based on what I respect. Anyway. That's a long reflection, but a super interesting episode, really interesting hearing the dichotomies that people have, whether it's, you know, being black, but not. sharing the right struggles as Americans. Or being someone who has shed the elements of race and nationality and embraced other aspects, or being someone who grew up in a country being very Americanized and deciding that they actually had a hole to fill, Which connected back to the culture that they, their parents are from, being, someone who is still figuring out the balance between how American or how. Korean or Pakistani or whatever race or nationality does someone want to be. And then it all comes down to when you have kids. What. Narrative do you pass on and do you pass on anything or do you let them decide. So lots of interesting questions here. And I would love to hear your perspectives on how you feel about this topic. what's your thoughts around race and nationality and, what's your journey been on that topic? If you enjoyed this episode. I highly encourage you to check out some of the other episodes from the live event. And if you like fake ID. please consider subscribing to us on wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And I will see you in the next room. Bye. Bye.