Church Untitled: Seriously, Listen to this Episode. An interview with an unassuming pastor, Ryan Johnson. Part 1

Church Untitled is a gathering place in downtown Vancouver, BC. In the midst of a busy city rife with an increasingly antagonistic culture, this church is building an altar of worship in the downtown core. Ryan Johnson, the pastor of Church Untitled, never envisioned himself as a church planter. In fact, the church began out of deep brokenness and hurt. This is his story, and the story of those who are gathering in the downtown core of one of the most bustling cities on the West Coast of North America.

Join Joshua and Murray as they welcome Ryan on the show. You'll laugh, you'll cry, but mostly you'll see the faithfulness of God to see the treasure in a young man who was struggling to find himself and the call of God on his life. Seriously. Listen to this episode.

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/
For more about Ryan and Church Untitled, visit: https://www.churchuntitled.com/

Transcript

00;00;20;24 - 00;01;01;12
Ryan Johnson
I was back and I'm in a car right now. I'm driving the car and he calls back to Cincinnati and again, it's on speakerphone and is all a part of people in the car. And and I'm like, you know, at this point, I'm like, okay, I wouldn't want to be someone.

00;01;01;15 - 00;01;05;16
Murray Dueck
Welcome, everybody, to Voices from the Desert.

00;01;05;17 - 00;01;07;20
Joshua Hoffert
Desert, desert. Desert, desert.

00;01;07;22 - 00;01;11;10
Ryan Johnson


00;01;11;12 - 00;01;13;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. You haven't you haven't been.

00;01;13;12 - 00;01;16;00
Murray Dueck
Do that because that sucks. That was my worst coyote.

00;01;16;06 - 00;01;16;18
Joshua Hoffert
That was.

00;01;16;18 - 00;01;22;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah, actually, How do we do the beginning? Once. And I did the best coyote howl, and now he did the worst. So I think.

00;01;22;06 - 00;01;25;05
Joshua Hoffert
The highest highs. The lowest of lows.

00;01;25;11 - 00;01;26;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;01;26;04 - 00;01;30;05
Joshua Hoffert
Well, we've all just said we need to record aid and doing it right, and we just haven't.

00;01;30;05 - 00;01;33;03
Murray Dueck
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I'll step on our foot one day and.

00;01;33;05 - 00;01;57;19
Joshua Hoffert
And we'll get back. We'll get that going. That's right. That's right. Well, welcome everybody to another episode. And my name is Joshua Hanford. I'm here with my good friend Murray Duke, and this is Voices from the Desert, where we talk about the things that we're interested in and I mean voices from the desert. The idea of voices in the desert is that we we talk about our own journeys.

00;01;57;19 - 00;02;16;00
Joshua Hoffert
We talk about the journeys of others. Interview people talking about what they've the life they've been through, the desert they've been through, and the stories that come out of it. And we look at the early monastics and how they retreated to the desert and the way they encountered God and the life they lived and draw inspiration from that.

00;02;16;00 - 00;02;48;11
Joshua Hoffert
And and so we're we're just Maria and I are along for the journey together. And we've been we've we've just done a series of interviews with our friend Bruce Friesen, talking about the the way the way Apostolic Ministry thinks apostolic thinking Apostolic. We we did a long series on the the the way Earth, the early church practice prophecy and what that can inform us about contemporary prophecy.

00;02;48;11 - 00;03;12;28
Joshua Hoffert
And then, you know, my favorite language, we went through the prophetic manifesto and the seven points of the prophetic manifesto, which we put out on the website and I put on on my website and on social media. And the seven points that we believed would bring a healthy expression of prophetic ministry back to the church and which which actually that characterizes.

00;03;12;28 - 00;03;32;06
Joshua Hoffert
Part of the conversation that we'll have today is with our good friend Ryan Johnson, pastor of Church Untitled. And this is round two because when we first started the interview, I forgot to hit record. So you guys are getting the seasoned interview now at this point. Yes. And it's so.

00;03;32;07 - 00;03;33;14
Murray Dueck
Good. We're going to do it twice.

00;03;33;14 - 00;04;02;07
Joshua Hoffert
It's so good. We're doing it twice. Yes. Yeah. So, Ryan, is that is the pastor of a church in pretty much the central downtown place that you can be. And it's it is this the church meets in an old nightclub. So that immediately gives it a mystique to it. And, you know, when you look when I've watched the livestream a number of times, then I was there for the first time back in December visiting B.C.

00;04;02;10 - 00;04;23;16
Joshua Hoffert
And the the way that they do lighting there just looks like, okay, that's pretty cool place. They've got this. I don't even know how you guys do that, this giant light hanging from the ceiling. And you know, my, my videography and all that kind of stuff that we've been doing for the last few years makes me go, how did they put all the lights in there?

00;04;23;19 - 00;04;25;04
Joshua Hoffert
So anyway, we got a.

00;04;25;04 - 00;04;27;13
Murray Dueck
Mirror ball up. Is there a mirror ball in there still?

00;04;27;16 - 00;04;28;16
Joshua Hoffert
Is there a mirror ball there?

00;04;28;16 - 00;04;32;03
Ryan Johnson
Ryan Yeah, it's just a big disco ball. That's all it is.

00;04;32;05 - 00;04;36;10
Murray Dueck
Right? That's awesome. A drink for the disco ball. You got to love that.

00;04;36;13 - 00;04;37;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah.

00;04;37;04 - 00;04;39;07
Murray Dueck
Well known as the disco ball Turkey.

00;04;39;09 - 00;05;07;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, Yeah. The disco Ball Church. That's right. That's right. And so we're. So Ryan's become a good friend. We met for the first time in 2017, I think, through mutual friends and organization that we're both part of called CMA. We've had the president of that organization on the podcast before, Steve Schroeder. He's a good friend of all of ours, walked each one of us through many, many different situations.

00;05;07;04 - 00;05;42;14
Joshua Hoffert
And so I was I had the privilege of visiting Church Untitled in December with Steve, and we walked into a an explosion of the Holy Spirit. What happened in the service there. And and so I know a bit about Ryan's story and the story of church untitled. And I thought well, this of Ryan on the podcast and here he is so Ryan, tell us a little bit about yourself.

00;05;42;16 - 00;05;45;00
Ryan Johnson
Hey hey guys. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

00;05;45;04 - 00;05;45;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, of course.

00;05;45;23 - 00;06;11;00
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, yeah. My name is Ryan Passage Church, downtown Vancouver, right in the heart of it, Red Cross in the Bay. People are familiar with that big old iconic building. So that's where we are in what used to be a nightclub called Old Bar, kind of like the premier nightclub in Vancouver in the early 2000, right the corner of Seymour, Georgia.

00;06;11;00 - 00;06;32;21
Ryan Johnson
That's where we are, a couple of blocks away from East Hastings, a couple of blocks away from the old financial district, from Granville, Granville Street. So, yeah, that's that's it. I have two sons, 75 and a daughter who's two. Wow. So young family, beautiful wife, living a life in Vancouver.

00;06;32;23 - 00;07;01;00
Joshua Hoffert
When you go to church, untitled, it doesn't really feel like you're going to church because you've got to drive through a parking structure and park at the top. It feels like you're going to an office or a shopping or something. It's an adventure, and then you've got to follow the signs to get to where the church is. But you guys have recently well, not recently, but in the last year, the last year and a half, you've been planning a move, right, or out?

00;07;01;00 - 00;07;28;04
Joshua Hoffert
Not even around the corner right there, because you're busting at the seams and in the space that you're at. Right. You're when when I was there in in December, we were told that we need to show up about 15 minutes to half an hour early to find a seat because there's just something special that's happening there. And so breaking ground in February on the on the remodel of the building that you're moving into, Right.

00;07;28;06 - 00;07;28;22
Ryan Johnson
So.

00;07;28;24 - 00;07;29;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;07;29;17 - 00;07;34;16
Ryan Johnson
Which which is actually just beneath us. wow. In the city, no one's.

00;07;34;18 - 00;07;36;04
Joshua Hoffert
Going lower.

00;07;36;06 - 00;07;46;04
Ryan Johnson
That's right. Yeah. Right. There's about 9000 square feet that used to be a college that we're going to kind of open up and and and make to a house of worship.

00;07;46;04 - 00;08;12;12
Joshua Hoffert
And I love you. One of the things I was listening to your last the talk that you gave just this last Sunday, talking about the plans for that. And one of the things you said that really excites you is that the kids can be involved in the service and yeah, because because they've had to go because of the limitations of the space here and they've had to go to other the office space or, or Right.

00;08;12;12 - 00;08;15;20
Joshua Hoffert
An elevator up to the fourth floor or something like that. Right. Yeah.

00;08;15;22 - 00;08;34;22
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. So we have a right adjacent to our building is an office building and so on the fourth floor we have about 2000 square feet that we during the week use as an office, but it's primarily a kids space and so they get, they get from the corner window office suite downtown Vancouver is the kids space which is a sweet treat.

00;08;34;24 - 00;08;56;09
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's a bougie kid's ministry space. But yeah, a blessing from God that we have it. But yeah, we want, we want to be able to worship together in the same space. So obviously, you know, kids have their classrooms, but you know, to be able to families come to one space and the kids are just across the wall and learning about God in the same space.

00;08;56;09 - 00;08;59;15
Ryan Johnson
So, I mean, that's a big one for us to be able to have that.

00;08;59;19 - 00;09;00;10
Joshua Hoffert
Be honored.

00;09;00;12 - 00;09;03;02
Ryan Johnson
And let alone downtown Vancouver, right? for sure.

00;09;03;03 - 00;09;07;08
Murray Dueck
It's hard to imagine that you've been worked. It's so hard to get space, you know?

00;09;07;11 - 00;09;21;19
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, well, I mean, it's a miracle. I mean, we I mean, we're in relationship with the building owners, but we we got the lease for about 20% market rate, which is absolute miracle. Yeah.

00;09;21;21 - 00;09;37;07
Joshua Hoffert
Mean this prime. I mean people have been exodus ing out of Vancouver because you can't afford to live there anymore. Right. Yeah. And businesses can't afford to operate there anymore and, and you're right in the hub of all of that.

00;09;37;09 - 00;09;41;15
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. And the biggest miracle is that like you said, we have our building has a parking lot in it.

00;09;41;18 - 00;09;42;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;09;42;23 - 00;09;47;19
Ryan Johnson
So and so we have parking that we have for church that people can come.

00;09;47;19 - 00;09;51;25
Joshua Hoffert
Past not to spend $20 just to go to church. Park parking. GROSS Right. That's right.

00;09;51;25 - 00;09;55;16
Ryan Johnson
Free parking. Free parking is modern day miracles. You bet.

00;09;55;16 - 00;09;56;19
Murray Dueck
I unbelievable. I mean.

00;09;56;24 - 00;09;57;09
Joshua Hoffert
My wife.

00;09;57;09 - 00;09;59;24
Ryan Johnson
Who's eating of the 5000 might be parking.

00;09;59;26 - 00;10;20;16
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. That's right. Yeah. Jesus. Jesus comes today. He goes free parking for all right. Balance it up right away, right? Yeah. Probably more the first time my wife grew up in the Vancouver area and the first time she came down to California to visit my family. And we went out to one of the local shopping areas and parking was $0.25 for the day.

00;10;20;18 - 00;10;46;06
Joshua Hoffert
And she was like, What even is this? I don't understand. Yeah. So what we're going to we're going to go through we want to hear Ryan's story about church on titled Ryan Story about Himself. It's when I was there in December, one of the things that Ryan was talking about was being in the city, but the city not being in you.

00;10;46;09 - 00;11;23;16
Joshua Hoffert
And that that concept and that phrase just really captivating me being in Vancouver, but not letting Vancouver be And you and one of the things that you said, Ryan, was you were talking about serving idols and you said not most of us like we don't serve physical idols today. And then you paused and thought about it and said, well actually in Vancouver there might be some of you that have physical idols in your house and that's that really is true about Western society now.

00;11;23;16 - 00;12;09;05
Joshua Hoffert
It's like we've come, I don't know if you'd say we've come full circle, but that idea of a physical embodiment as having a Buddha or some kind of pagan deity that might not be totally abnormal in someone's house nowadays, which is just fascinating when you think about where culturally where we're at. So anyway, what I want to talk about, Ryan, is a couple of years ago I was driving, my wife and I were actually we were driving across Newfoundland, which is a long drive when you drive from where I'm at in Prince Edward Island to get the ferry across the Strait into Newfoundland and then all the way across Newfoundland.

00;12;09;07 - 00;12;45;03
Joshua Hoffert
Beautiful drive. I'd recommend it for anybody in the right time of year. Anyway, we went in November right before all the snow happened, so that was good. But I was driving and I was reflecting on life, on ministry, on all the stuff that we're involved in. I really felt like it was like I, I became aware of this thought and I can't say that the Lord just spoke the thought to me, but it was definitely a God moment when I realized we do what we do because the father at some point has gripped our hearts and he never let it go.

00;12;45;05 - 00;12;58;22
Joshua Hoffert
And and I was thinking, you know, if he let it go, I could probably go do something else. But I don't think he's in the business of letting go of the heart. His script. And I know Ryan, one of the things you mentioned in the previous form of our interview when I forgot to hit.

00;12;58;22 - 00;13;00;06
Ryan Johnson
Record.

00;13;00;08 - 00;13;30;11
Joshua Hoffert
Was that you couldn't shake what you had seen about the father. And it was like it in a way, and you actually use the language. You said it's haunted you not, you know, not in a bad way, but it haunted you and you couldn't get away from. And so the first question I want to ask and just just kind of the lead into your story is what what was as a young man, what was that moment that the father gripped your heart?

00;13;30;14 - 00;13;34;24
Joshua Hoffert
What was that demarcation moment? And let's just start then.

00;13;34;24 - 00;14;06;22
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, I think there was probably many growing up. I grew up in in a pretty charismatic environment that was very open to the spirit, you know, kind of probably, you know, in the wake of some of the things that were happening in Toronto and whatnot just kind of opened, you know, I grew up in a Foursquare Pentecostal kind of environment, and so that things in a spirit were quite normal.

00;14;06;24 - 00;14;32;20
Ryan Johnson
And so, you know, attached to this church that I grew up in was a private Christian school, and my dad was actually the principal of the school. And so I was kind of in the mix all the time, six days a week at least. And part of kind of our formation at that school was, you know, to their credit, they would shut down classes at the beginning of the year or sometimes maybe twice a year for three days.

00;14;32;20 - 00;15;03;06
Ryan Johnson
And they would call it spiritual emphasis weeks, and they would invite, you know, basically prophets to come in. People who were really a kid could walk in and give to the spirit in part and make deposits on these kids. And it was such a big part of the ethos of the school and wow, that's existed. Yeah, yeah. So we put academics away for three days and just, you know, we dance and, and, and, you know, party like teenagers in God's presence.

00;15;03;09 - 00;15;21;10
Ryan Johnson
And then we would sit and listen to kind of old school prophet and, you know, speak for an hour or whatever. But then you start to minister. And this one particular year, a guy named Ken Peters, he he came in was a good family friend of ours, too.

00;15;21;10 - 00;15;25;10
Murray Dueck
And he's from this is Santa maria California wasn't.

00;15;25;10 - 00;15;45;16
Ryan Johnson
Yeah that's really yeah right up yeah yeah. He passed away a couple of years ago through a long battle, a battle of kidney failure. But a marking moment in my life was when he was in and they have those old tape recorders, and he would go around with a mic in the room and talk to 150 students, high school students.

00;15;45;16 - 00;16;08;05
Ryan Johnson
And I was a little bit younger, so I kind of snuck in, maybe 12, 13 years old. And, you know, towards the end of the session, he kind of pushed everybody away. So guys kind of go to the periphery of the room and shut the mic off with the recorder off. And you kind of grabbed me by myself, me and him, and I could see and watch, but there was no nobody could hear what was happening.

00;16;08;07 - 00;16;27;28
Ryan Johnson
And I remember him holding me and hugging me and giving me a prophetic word. And I was just overcome with emotion and tears and snot. And I remember seeing his shirt afterwards, filthy, frothing from the stuff that was coming out of my nose marking memory for me. But I don't remember a single word that he spoke of in my life.

00;16;27;28 - 00;16;51;25
Ryan Johnson
But my my thought was this I just felt like I was being held by God. I mean embraced by the father. And even the scene there of him, kind of like isolating me, you know, everybody's here, but it's just you and me that was marking for my life. But I didn't really even come to the conclusion about those things until probably ten years later.

00;16;52;00 - 00;17;12;16
Ryan Johnson
for sure. Wow. And I remember I remember driving down to Portland to watch a basketball game kind of in the middle of the night. And God reminded me of that moment as I was kind of finding him again in my early twenties, how he marked me. Wow. You know, and Josh, you ask him about those moments, It's like, you know, in the Scripture, say the Holy Spirit seal on our hearts.

00;17;12;16 - 00;17;38;12
Ryan Johnson
I feel like I was branded in that moment by God. And God, in his wisdom, allowed me to go on my journey in the next ten plus years and navigate pain in his graces, sufficient to walk to me the whole way and, you know, made mistakes and caused problems and so on and so forth. The moderately rebellious teenager I moderate.

00;17;38;14 - 00;18;10;13
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, yeah, I got stories, but there's some better ones out there for sure. I could never escape that imprint. And so, you know, my relationship with church, my relationship with Western Christianity, my relationship with leaders, it waned for sure. And, you know, there's issues. But I never doubted God's love and his eyes upon my life. In fact, it haunted me, you know, in the best way.

00;18;10;15 - 00;18;33;13
Ryan Johnson
But also, like, you know, when I wasn't living up to what you know, what the deposit said about who I was, what his nature was for me, about my maiden nature, it became, you know, in those formative early twenties years, like prompted me to ask the questions. You know, this is something I couldn't get rid of. So he he grabbed hold of me at a young age.

00;18;33;13 - 00;18;41;08
Murray Dueck
And was it like in in that moderately rebellious times like the Hound of Heaven was chasing you?

00;18;41;10 - 00;19;14;17
Ryan Johnson
I think I think there was a temperance in me, if I could put it that way. I love sports, I love basketball. And I went to a Christian school. Right? And so if there any, you lose your spot on the team, right? for sure. Yeah. If you were caught doing stuff. And so there's a there was this kind of inner knowing that, you know, there's some boundaries that I didn't want to cross in my life and you know, in wanting to, you know, my basketball coach or my athletic director wanted to like, please and, you know, stuff like that kept kept me.

00;19;14;25 - 00;19;36;29
Ryan Johnson
good. Or like, or like an inner inner compass of, you know, And in knowing that I was made for something better than what I'm currently engaged. that's wonderful. And in fact, in fact, that was what the Lord used to really, you know, pretty cool glass of water on my face, my early twenties. Like, I kind of crossed some of those boundaries in my life.

00;19;36;29 - 00;19;48;25
Ryan Johnson
And I had to look at myself in the mirror and be like, man, like, I didn't think I was capable of this. And and here I am. And so I had to make some decisions about who I'm going to be and where I'm going to go.

00;19;49;00 - 00;20;00;12
Murray Dueck
And so that's quite an impactful event when all those years later, it's still a living, burning ember inside your heart. Right. And what are you going to do with that thing? That's brilliant.

00;20;00;14 - 00;20;15;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You know, Ram, I was just thinking about this. It reminds me I was trying to find them. Trying to find the. yeah. In Jobs seven when job, he says, and in verse 20, he says, Why have you set me as my as your target.

00;20;15;17 - 00;20;16;08
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. Yeah.

00;20;16;10 - 00;20;35;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Yeah. And that's like, that's like you're the targets on your back and God's after you and he's going to do something with you and you can't shake it, you know, That's the Holy Spirit that you're talking about, right? That's been marked. And, and there's a part of me that goes, I, I've tried to get away from it and I can't right now.

00;20;35;16 - 00;20;44;20
Joshua Hoffert
And in the most beautiful way, when it starts to become realized, you know, at this point you would go I think you say you're 35, right?

00;20;44;23 - 00;20;45;08
Ryan Johnson
I'm 25.

00;20;45;08 - 00;20;55;01
Joshua Hoffert
35. Yeah. You would probably go. I would never change. I would never exchange what I'm doing now for the world that maybe the things you were passionate of back in your early twenties.

00;20;55;04 - 00;20;55;17
Ryan Johnson
Absolutely.

00;20;55;17 - 00;21;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And because the target, he's set his mark on you, it put his target on you. I'm curious in, in that whole you have this dramatic encounter with the father's heart. You're convicted of his love. You're embraced by this prophetic figure who who models, in a way in that moment. The father's heart to you doesn't yet remember what he says, Right?

00;21;18;14 - 00;21;47;16
Joshua Hoffert
It's like the words themselves. It's not that they're unimportant on some on some level they were probably important. But anyway what and wrestling also with your the main you know, your main quote unquote religious character in the context of your schools, your dad and and then he's also your dad. So you've got to wrestle with those kind of things, right, Father figures and all of that.

00;21;47;16 - 00;22;06;03
Joshua Hoffert
What what kind of father figures did were there other men that that helped model to you what the father heart was like as you're, you know, growing into your teenage years, early twenties, other men that came alongside that you could point back to and go, that was a father heart figure for me.

00;22;07;26 - 00;22;29;27
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I mean, these things are clear in retrospect, like in the moment, of course, living, living your life. But my, my, my high school basketball coach who was my gym teacher, my athletic director, all from kindergarten to grade 12 all the way through. And in fact, I did some coaching for him afterwards. So our relationship to this day remains.

00;22;29;29 - 00;22;49;00
Ryan Johnson
And, you know, there was a there's a fathering not necessary me in the sense of like, you know, I'm going to I'm going to sit down and give to you what your father didn't give you. But like, I'm a father figure who was an important man in my life who I really wanted to please. And I really wanted to align my life with.

00;22;49;03 - 00;23;25;19
Ryan Johnson
And, you know, I remember there'd be times where, you know, everybody would kind of go to the gym at lunch time and a similar in similar fashion to that prophet. And sometimes he would just shut the gym down to sit with me and have lunch. Wow. Talk and ask. I think he was aware of a lot of brokenness in my family, in and out of pain, and it's something we specifically dialed into that stuff, which that sense of being seen and known and, you know, response fairly given in sports and, you know, like learning how to push beyond your limitations and what discipline and, you know, athletic pursuit, you know, there's not much else that

00;23;25;19 - 00;23;46;08
Ryan Johnson
drove me, to be honest in high school except except, you know, those those specific types of accomplishments. And, you know, a lot of it had to do with, you know, his approval in some. Right. And so that was that was big for me. And this is the man who had handed me books in high school who I would have intellectual conversations with about sports and other things, history.

00;23;46;08 - 00;24;11;14
Ryan Johnson
And and so it sparked like curiosity in me to learn all these things. And it didn't come through my math classroom English class. Yeah, just came through relationship. And so I think what it was was just a person to kind of lean into. And I don't even know if you intentionally did it, you know, they put but who the Lord used to kind of bring out of me who I was.

00;24;11;16 - 00;24;30;15
Ryan Johnson
And to this day, many of those things are markers for me. I had another teacher in my later years of high school, and I was I was flunking out of high school. In fact, I actually repeated a year in high school that because I was incapable, because I just couldn't navigate a lot of brokenness in my life. And that manifested in not caring about anything.

00;24;30;16 - 00;24;48;18
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, Yeah. So, you know, I had an extra year of eligibility in basketball, and so I, I failed the grade so I could go play another year. Like that's where my mind was at. Nice. But I had a teacher who kind of grabbed hold of me, a science teacher in grade 11, and actually went to live with him for a few months, just cause a lot of pain in my own home.

00;24;48;18 - 00;25;05;11
Ryan Johnson
And he would just he would go over the top. He would just I remember one time in a chapel that we had in school, he stood me up and it was most embarrassing moment in my life. But I look back and I see the love of life stood me up and said, You know, Brian's the smartest, most capable guy in the school.

00;25;05;13 - 00;25;28;20
Ryan Johnson
Wow. And I'm like, For him to say that for my peers is the most like, the most ridiculous thing in the world to me. Don't expose me like that's not what I want. But looking back, you know, I just seen again God's spotlight on me of like, there's a lot of pain right now, but my my protection is going to be keeping the speech to keep speaking words of truth and affirmation of life into you.

00;25;28;20 - 00;25;37;14
Ryan Johnson
And so those were turning points for me for sure. We try to put things together in my life through the pain and brokenness of of what life looked like in that context.

00;25;37;14 - 00;25;44;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Would you have characterized that moment at that point in your life as a prophetic word to you or just.

00;25;44;03 - 00;25;44;10
Ryan Johnson
Kind of.

00;25;44;18 - 00;25;45;29
Joshua Hoffert
100%? Yeah.

00;25;46;02 - 00;26;06;08
Ryan Johnson
100%, Yeah. It was not a dust, says the Lord, but it was. It was. It was someone seeing what God saw in me. Right. In language to it. Right. And that was so formative for me and an end because it came kind of coded in God's presence. It found its way into those spaces that only God can make it into in your heart.

00;26;06;10 - 00;26;10;25
Ryan Johnson
And so looking back 100%, I recognize that was God's hand right in my life.

00;26;10;27 - 00;26;13;09
Joshua Hoffert
In the moment. Did you recognize it or you're just too impaired?

00;26;13;09 - 00;26;26;20
Ryan Johnson
Not at all. I was embarrassed. And why are you doing this? Let me. Let me be me. Let me like, hide in the background. This is a very uncool high school. Yeah, it is about being cool, but.

00;26;26;23 - 00;26;27;29
Joshua Hoffert
Well, and I'm one of.

00;26;27;29 - 00;26;28;08
Ryan Johnson
I got.

00;26;28;14 - 00;26;54;00
Joshua Hoffert
I want to point out two things just in regards to people that have been following how we've talked about the gift of prophecy on the podcast. Because, you know, I think in, in our culture today, sometimes prophecy is characterized as prophesying the next political figure or what's going to happen in the next election or what's going to happen in this nation of that nation.

00;26;54;03 - 00;27;21;10
Joshua Hoffert
But I just want to point out that two of the most formative moments in your life were prophetic moments, one by a prophetic person in particular, and the other one unwittingly on your behalf. Right? That the guy who did it, your science teacher, probably had a another notion, but these these weren't like big dramatic calling words. These were moments the father intervened and spoke identity.

00;27;21;12 - 00;27;43;10
Joshua Hoffert
And it makes me think of a verse that I've been wrestling with when it comes to prophecy. And Isaiah 45, where Isaiah, speaking on behalf of the Lord, he says, Ask of me, can ask of me things to come concerning my sons and not concerning what's going to happen with the nation, what's going to happen with a political leader, whatever.

00;27;43;13 - 00;28;09;10
Joshua Hoffert
But I want to talk about my kids and and that's what you see happening in both of those stories, these early identity forming moments that in reflection are absolutely the father encountering you and become become touch point moments in terms of your whole who who you're becoming. So with with all that, what was was there like a a marking moment for now.

00;28;09;10 - 00;28;17;03
Joshua Hoffert
Thus I am a pastor and I am called as a pastor. Was there some kind of marking moment for that?

00;28;17;05 - 00;28;24;07
Ryan Johnson
That's a that's a great question. I think I would say that that happened while I was pastor.

00;28;24;09 - 00;28;28;29
Joshua Hoffert
I became aware that I was going to be a pastor when I was Patrick Okay.

00;28;28;29 - 00;28;51;16
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. I mean, for those who don't know, I mean, I think, you know, our story formation in my formation as a leader and, you know, calling to minister happened amidst a ton of brokenness, a ton of pain, you know, and I know I'm talking about it that that seen throughout my life of of God's kind of light shining in the darkness and then choosing that light, choosing his truth is a bunch of chaos.

00;28;51;16 - 00;29;18;16
Ryan Johnson
I mean, those have been the most formative moments in my life. But ultimately, the church that we that we started came about out of a very broken situation. So I was trying to put myself through pre-med in school, you know, wanted to go into sports medicine. And I was hitting walls right. Like, I didn't I didn't form a lot of like self discipline and good tools for study.

00;29;18;16 - 00;29;42;13
Ryan Johnson
I was very capable but just didn't have the kind of drive to put my head down and do what it takes, you know, really, to become a doctor. And so in that time I was really giving my life back to the Lord and it was encountering with it kind of his presence. And, you know, I was invited to a church by a by a a Buddhist classmate in college.

00;29;42;14 - 00;29;46;22
Ryan Johnson
He got invited to a church. And so he knew that I was a I grew up Christian, so invited me this church.

00;29;46;22 - 00;29;49;07
Joshua Hoffert
And so you are his safe place, basically.

00;29;49;09 - 00;29;51;06
Ryan Johnson
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

00;29;51;09 - 00;29;51;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;29;51;24 - 00;30;17;25
Ryan Johnson
And he never came back. But that church actually became my space. And I did miss Sunday after that. Like I encountered God's presence in that church again, like I did when I was 13 years old. And so that that connection was made once again, I'd have kind of blips on the radar, you know, here and there by myself in my room as I kind of, you know, God is kind of stirring up that deposit again in me.

00;30;17;25 - 00;30;26;16
Ryan Johnson
But it kind of landed again in a church in the context of church. And I would say for the next six months, I'm sitting in that church just crying, crying, crying every Sunday.

00;30;26;19 - 00;30;30;02
Murray Dueck
With your brood in front of that.

00;30;30;04 - 00;30;53;02
Ryan Johnson
Why are you crying? Yeah, well, I mean, I'm like my subtle cry when they cry. Mean my eyes get misty. Yeah. Good. But just feeling, you know, just his presence washing me. Yeah. And healing even spaces that I'm not even aware of. And my heart is just a beautiful return to what I had known of him, you know?

00;30;53;02 - 00;31;17;18
Ryan Johnson
And so, you know, I was encountering him in even a bit before this. So I was really sad to find my way back into church and back into that life. But inconsistent, loving his presence, but like not knowing how to put it together. My personal life. And so it was ultimately a trip to Vegas that was really that was the initiator for me.

00;31;17;21 - 00;31;31;28
Ryan Johnson
The Lord used it where, you know, I had encounters presence again and just like loving him and I had planned and no crazy debauchery there, but it was definitely like, you know, this behavior.

00;31;32;00 - 00;31;34;29
Joshua Hoffert
This wasn't a Christian trip to Vegas.

00;31;35;02 - 00;32;05;20
Ryan Johnson
Let's put it. Yeah, not at all. Not there to evangelize for that way. But I had to come home and reconcile at home a second. What do I want? Do I want to live this kind of like, serve my own purpose and do my own thing, which comes with a baggage of, you know, anxiety and depression and all the things, you know, I'm awakening to what like lifestyle brain is now this age in my early twenties, or do I want, like what I'm experiencing in that church service every day of my life?

00;32;05;21 - 00;32;25;20
Ryan Johnson
Like, am I going to pursue the Lord really? So I came back and committed my life. I said, God, you can have my life, you can you can take it. And so that I would have been maybe 22, 23 at that point or for, you know, ten, ten years after that first encounter. And so I started serving in that church and becoming great friends with with leadership in that church.

00;32;25;20 - 00;32;38;07
Ryan Johnson
And, you know, over time, you know, was getting positions of leadership. And yeah, so that's that was kind of me coming back to the Lord, that journey, that formation.

00;32;38;09 - 00;33;04;23
Murray Dueck
You know, I'll throw in a question here that, if you don't mind, that I think is going to connect later on because we've already done this talk once so I'm cutting pieces to pieces together here, the things I've heard. So, you know, when when I think spiritual formation, I, I, you know how it the Lord explained it to me, there's this impactful event which could be like what happened to you in that gym with the can Peters brain over.

00;33;04;23 - 00;33;34;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah. If I got a first name right there, I remember Peters That's Friday night. Always wondered how he ended up. Anyway. And those guys sitting down with you and just a formation of, of that because I had asked Josh because I missed the first part of this, everybody, I had to go run out and do something on the farm and I'm because I know prophecy and spirit keeps coming up and I'm like, I wonder what happened to to, to Ryan when he was young And in regards hearing God's voice because something must happen for him to value this.

00;33;34;01 - 00;33;49;29
Murray Dueck
And now I know because I didn't hear this part, but the other thing. So so you can see the the event, you can see the spiritual principal he got about the father heart and the love of God and and the core value with God loves him and the shaping of his life goals. From that you can you can see it.

00;33;50;05 - 00;34;19;11
Murray Dueck
But but there's another one that teacher and that gym teacher put in all that time into you. You know, I would put money. You're a father heart guy with the people you work with that that sitting down with people and loving on them. I bet you that flows out of you. And and and I just he had made a comment everyone and Ryan can come back to that when this church blew up of gathering all these people together and saying, hey, you know, we're all a mess.

00;34;19;14 - 00;34;41;09
Murray Dueck
But that's what that teacher did for you. Yeah. And, you know, that's in your bones now. And and the reason I wanted to point it out, everybody, is that we're all being shaped by the Lord. And here's somebody learning the powerful thing because we're all being shaped by the Lord. And to know what happened to you, where we're the Lord touched you, that that's a seed in you of your DNA, of what you're going to grow into.

00;34;41;11 - 00;34;59;29
Murray Dueck
And and I'm just so having a good time listening to this journey and the formation, because we all we all have seeds that fall on the dry ground or the sun scorches and we can let it die, you know. But, but the here is a story of where these things go deep and then the seed multiply, you know?

00;34;59;29 - 00;35;19;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Anyway, I just wanted to point that out. I mean, this will come back little later, but, but for those listening, you know, you guys think back over your lives and going, yeah, that teacher, that person that encounter, it shapes you and you realize it's intentionally done by God to make you who he sees you becoming. And anyway, it's just brilliant.

00;35;19;06 - 00;35;24;15
Murray Dueck
So I just had to I couldn't help myself. I had to jump in there.

00;35;24;18 - 00;36;01;04
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, it was his. You actually. Right. There were seeds. I mean, again, they were dormant for a long time. Right. As seeds are sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. But he, he made those deposits in, in the right space in the right time and you know, it for context. There's a lot of brokenness in my life, in my family, and many people can relate right now in the context of church, in the context of spirituality, in the Coptic context of having parents who are who are like, you know, looked up to and seen as like spiritual people at home, you know, there's there's a ton of pain in I think I was quite a sensitive kid.

00;36;01;04 - 00;36;21;24
Ryan Johnson
So it's quite aware whether or not it was intellectually okay. I was I was emotionally aware of a lot of that. And so part of you know, and many people in this day and age can relate. Part of the importance of those seeds was like I was a critical thinker and I could see the disconnect between what was being said, what was being done.

00;36;21;25 - 00;36;44;25
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, you know, growing up in charismatic environments, being all this emphasis on gifts and an emphasis on property, on these things, yet devoid of actual content and character information internally. So I was super where all these things and you know, the swirl of the of the big mix of them, yet in the midst of it, the Lord gave me these anchor points that I couldn't argue with.

00;36;44;28 - 00;36;51;27
Ryan Johnson
Amazing. Right? And so those, those were a big deal for me. Right. So so thank you 20 part. It's a good.

00;36;51;27 - 00;36;53;27
Murray Dueck
Term. Yeah I like that.

00;36;53;27 - 00;36;57;05
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;36;57;07 - 00;37;15;06
Murray Dueck
So the where did that bringing out all this bring us back to where we were So these anchor points are in you, you know you're back in church feeling the presence of God but now you got these anchor points, but maybe a lot of the other people don't. So what happened right there? What was your experience? You've got the presence back.

00;37;15;09 - 00;37;20;23
Murray Dueck
You're in What what starts to unfold around you and how do you navigate? Yeah.

00;37;20;26 - 00;37;46;29
Ryan Johnson
That's a great question. So this this story really picks up. So I become like best friends with the leader of this church who's got his his, his own world of stuff going on. You know, he's only two years older than me, right? So I'm 20 and he's 25 and, you know, gifted, charismatic leader, experience, movement, things are happening, but a lot of brokenness in his in his own heart.

00;37;46;29 - 00;38;02;04
Ryan Johnson
And you know what I what I the gift that I got in that season was becoming so close with him. And kind of the initiation of ministry for me was just ministering to end or strength of his heart. Wow. And I don't mean that condescendingly. I don't mean that. And was like, no. Well.

00;38;02;07 - 00;38;11;21
Murray Dueck
It's kind of cool because once again, we see that pattern of what was what the Lord had given you through your teacher and whatever, you have the faith to give it away to someone else.

00;38;11;24 - 00;38;29;10
Ryan Johnson
Well, really, it was just relationally. We were like pretty cool in the week. And I would say this term like verbatim, like I read on top of it and it's just kind of like an unrefined, you know, a 23 year old, right? Like, I don't really care about the church. I really don't care about the church. In fact, I would use more colorful language in.

00;38;29;10 - 00;38;31;00
Joshua Hoffert
That my wife still says every day.

00;38;31;00 - 00;38;49;08
Ryan Johnson
So, yeah, I don't mean Big C church and this is me long ago. I just meant like, I'm not here for the church. I'm here for you. Yeah, yeah. Like I care about you. Right? And that was very genuine of me to say, like, I didn't mean it in any weird way. I mean, it's just. It wasn't on the stage with him in a car talking and.

00;38;49;09 - 00;38;58;20
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, but, but for me, you know, engaging his story, a lot of it boiled down to meant I don't know if you did I just don't think you you see Jesus rightly.

00;38;58;23 - 00;39;00;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;39;00;04 - 00;39;16;19
Ryan Johnson
And so it was a that it was it was like I don't have formal training or anything. It's just like I just know differently than this. Like, I think you're a lot more loving on the B and I think he actually has what it takes to see you through this issue and you can actually bring the here and that you're on for you don't have to take this into your own hands.

00;39;16;19 - 00;39;43;29
Ryan Johnson
And and so there was there's moments of just the Holy Spirit coming and filling out the car that we were in together. Like that was my formation in ministry. Isn't that of liking what is God saying? And and so, you know, that was a deep entree and and I and and that actually showed me a lot about the Lord right to sitting in and ministering the heart of God to somebody and feeling his presence and his affirmation while doing so.

00;39;44;01 - 00;40;12;13
Ryan Johnson
Right. Those are those are formative moments. And so I didn't know the implications of that. Obviously, my affinity for ministry was starting to grow like love and be in the context of all of this, right? So those seeds, those deposits earlier were kind of taking shape. Yeah. And so like to kind of continue with the story of the church that we were a part of, you know, you know, momentum was coming, prophetic words were coming like things were happening.

00;40;12;15 - 00;40;20;12
Ryan Johnson
It was you know, it was an era of like cool church, right? Of, of like being attracted like God is here, but it's also like super attractive and.

00;40;20;18 - 00;40;23;15
Murray Dueck
yeah, I was there. I remember it quite well.

00;40;23;15 - 00;40;45;02
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, related to it a lot and, and so, you know, God was really moving in and you know, a few years into me being there, not making the connection and instead this was about me. But anyways, yeah, yeah, me being there for a few years, we got invited to, to take the church that was in the suburbs to the nightclub downtown.

00;40;45;05 - 00;41;06;09
Ryan Johnson
Okay. And the owner of the altar is a big mover, correct? Yeah. Yeah. So? So the owner of the building said, Hey, I got this, got this nightclub. That kind of, you know, owes me a little bit. So, you know, I'll scratch their back, they scratch ours. We you guys can go in there Sunday evenings and that clubs are functioning anyways.

00;41;06;16 - 00;41;15;26
Ryan Johnson
And so they would kind of mop up the, you know, the alcohol on the floor and clean up the bathrooms and get rid of all the stuff, organized the booze on the walls. And then we would come in and set.

00;41;15;26 - 00;41;17;28
Joshua Hoffert
Up Was the booze on the walls still there when you would.

00;41;17;28 - 00;41;32;09
Ryan Johnson
Be 100% full on, blah, blah, blah, so that you know, those who would be intimidated about going to a formal church space would worry me. Like, you know, I was here last night. No.

00;41;32;12 - 00;41;35;02
Murray Dueck
So why? That feels great.

00;41;35;04 - 00;41;55;29
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, that was a context. Right? And, you know, I mean, I know the podcast episode have a lot to probably say about that now and kind of the liberties that we kind of allowed in that space. Sure. But two months after we got into that space. Well, I should say, like as we got into that space, I was brought on staff in that church.

00;41;56;01 - 00;42;03;14
Ryan Johnson
So that's kind of like the beginning of my journey in kind of formal ministry. And so, you know, I quit my job and and came on stage.

00;42;03;14 - 00;42;04;15
Joshua Hoffert
What were you doing at that point?

00;42;04;15 - 00;42;27;19
Ryan Johnson
You know, I, I was out of school. Like I said, I was in school for pre-med and kind of like turned involved into more sociology and stuff that, you know, I was growing the Lord. This is actually more of what I was interested in. Not by the school by any means, any of that stuff. But I was actually helping someone run a flooring company at that point.

00;42;27;19 - 00;42;31;16
Ryan Johnson
Okay. All right. Because I was gearing to to ministry. Right.

00;42;31;16 - 00;42;35;08
Joshua Hoffert
And so carpentry, Right. Ministries. Seems very Jesus.

00;42;35;08 - 00;42;36;08
Ryan Johnson
Like working on.

00;42;36;13 - 00;42;37;17
Murray Dueck
That man skills.

00;42;37;20 - 00;42;59;11
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it really what it was is like I got some bills to pay. I got to pay bills but passed actually in ministry. And so, you know, I got the opportunity after had just gotten getting just got married actually two months before this and then went into full time ministry. So being in ministry for two months full time, everything implodes in the church.

00;42;59;14 - 00;43;17;04
Ryan Johnson
And and when you think of kind of the scandals that are out there, the big public ones, and you think about that on a micro scale in our church, you know, and like a lot of people are involved in the news getting into the details, but nonetheless, things blew up and the cascade effect of it, right. It's not just on one issue.

00;43;17;06 - 00;43;21;00
Ryan Johnson
One issue touches another, which touches another, and then it just becomes people got hurt.

00;43;21;00 - 00;43;21;24
Joshua Hoffert
People get a.

00;43;21;27 - 00;43;35;24
Ryan Johnson
Space of chaos. Yeah. wow. So in the midst of that, I was kind of like, you know, they kind of tapped on my shoulder, Hey, can you bring leadership to this house? How old are you? Maybe 20. 26.

00;43;35;24 - 00;43;36;29
Murray Dueck
That's amazing. Wow.

00;43;37;06 - 00;43;56;24
Ryan Johnson
27. You know, I mean, I am probably not the most capable guy in the world to do it, but maybe the most capable guy in the room try to figure out. But sure. But, you know, not not a lot of church government and like, you know, a lot of mistakes. You know, you look back and like, you know, that was kind of doomed to fail.

00;43;56;24 - 00;44;25;13
Ryan Johnson
But nonetheless, Lord was there. Right. It's like one of those paradoxes, like how in the world can people encounter God in this best? But he was he was doing it. And so for a year from that point, we tried to kind of keep the church afloat and sort stuff out in the middle of that year, you know, it was probably the hardest looking four years of my life, I'm sure, for many reasons, many, many circumstances.

00;44;25;16 - 00;44;50;13
Ryan Johnson
In the middle of that year, I kind of had this kind of resurgence again through prophetic word. I traveled to a conference in in Miami, and there was prophetic words about reconciliation, prophetic words about the call God in my life to the bring that to, you know, facilitate that and to bring healing. And so I came back just full of hope that we could bring healing to this, to this broken situation and and kind of restarted that engine.

00;44;50;13 - 00;44;59;08
Ryan Johnson
And that's what I let my voice to Hey, guys, we're going to do this. And my hope was that we're going to you know, I was going to wipe my hands of it and get out.

00;44;59;11 - 00;45;01;22
Joshua Hoffert
Help it recover, and then yeah, yeah.

00;45;01;25 - 00;45;25;23
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, bring healing and like a job well done and go find ministry somewhere else. Never, never in my mind thought about, like starting a church or being a senior leadership position. I just loved the Lord and loved what he was doing and wanted to bring my gifts. So I came back, you know, and with my wife and she's pregnant at the time and set my heart to bring reconciliation.

00;45;25;23 - 00;45;49;15
Ryan Johnson
And then and then more stuff comes out. wow. And it's just it's just kind of is beyond repair. And so that the board of that church and I was part of it just decided we're just going to shut it down just too much. We're not gonna be able to solve these problems. And it's not it's not worth it to keep the volunteers and people helping provision, you know, at bay.

00;45;49;18 - 00;46;09;24
Ryan Johnson
But in that midst, in that time, it is very painful time. We had a ton of prophetic words from all around the word world, me and my wife, about what the Lord wanted to do with us and and a lot of it was around movement. A lot of it was around doing something new and a new model and all of these things.

00;46;09;24 - 00;46;28;21
Ryan Johnson
Yet we were in so much pain and brokenness and burnout from what we were just walking through. And so after that shutdown, which was in 2016, we just said quietly, Hey, you know, we didn't even say it ourselves. Other people did on our behalf. We didn't want to make it public. We didn't want to do a church split thing.

00;46;28;23 - 00;46;56;09
Ryan Johnson
We didn't want anything to do with that culture. yeah, It was just ugly, ugly to us. But we wanted to obey the Lord. We said, Hey, we're going to gather an apartment. We're just going to we're just going to see what God wants to say, what God wants to do. But the call, if you don't want to grow bitter, if you don't want to give up on church and what God is doing, and if you don't want to, you know, move into the deconstruction movement, like, let's walk together through this.

00;46;56;11 - 00;47;31;10
Ryan Johnson
And so we met on a Tuesday right after we shut it down, man. Tuesday night, not knowing where we were going to go or we're going to do no plan for church. We just knew that we had to continue because that's what I was speaking as what I was saying. But this, this came off the back of bigger movements in the world, bigger churches in the world, knowing that things were kind of falling apart, disintegrated people that we were in relationship with saying, hey, you know, Right, Sarah, we want you to be the Vancouver campus pastors for our church.

00;47;31;12 - 00;47;52;03
Ryan Johnson
And so in that mix of like God speaking, doing something new and we wanted to birth something and all of this was this kind of call to, you know, here's the funds, here's the here's the model, here's the wow, the leadership, here's the everything you've looked up for. And these were my heroes. Like, these are people that I've gladly served with my life.

00;47;52;07 - 00;48;16;00
Ryan Johnson
And we want you in your life to be a Vancouver campus of our church. And thank God for his grace in that season to send voices in my life saying, Don't do it. There's something that God wants to do through you right now. But I was not standing on solid ground at all, right. Like like if you had any confidence in me now about that season, I was it was so full of anxiety, so full of burnout, so full of doubt.

00;48;16;00 - 00;48;32;10
Ryan Johnson
My self-worth was, yeah, it's horrible. You're in the ground and I had no interest. Looks like there was something on my shoulders and making it happen. But God's prophetic voice kept on coming back over and over and over was always the same thing.

00;48;32;12 - 00;48;51;28
Murray Dueck
Very telling with with these voices in your life. So. So they're speaking prophetically, people from all over the place. Hey, God's for you. Something new is going to happen. Don't. Don't go back to an old model. But it just kept coming from all these people and you know, that's it, right? You know, it's it's a divine thing happening.

00;48;52;00 - 00;49;06;14
Ryan Johnson
We couldn't escape it. I'll give you an example. Yeah, example. So that conference I was in Miami for, I'm driving in a car with a friend and he he is like, I need you to talk to somebody. So he gets on the phone and he doesn't say anything. He says he's a friend. They want you to talk to you.

00;49;06;14 - 00;49;30;27
Ryan Johnson
Hands me the phone and on on the phone the guy goes, Your name is Ryan. You're from Vancouver. This is what's happening in the literature. I see this word and the word describe the problems that were happening. And he said, It's not in your life. It's in someone else's life, and this is why you're going through this. But God's called you to be attracted to your city and all of these things.

00;49;30;29 - 00;49;55;22
Ryan Johnson
We hang up the phone. He calls back. He calls back, and I'm in a car right now. I'm driving the car. It's on speaker phone. And and he calls back and says, There's a sin in your life. I want all day. Okay, here we go. And it again, it's on speaker phone and you know, a ton of people in the car and and I'm like, all right, You know, at this point, I'm like, okay, I mean, Lord, do whatever you want to do.

00;49;55;22 - 00;50;19;23
Ryan Johnson
And so he's like, the sin in your life. Okay. What is it like? It's fear. I'm like, thank God. Thank God. It's a socially acceptable sin. It's been exposed right now, guys. It's just fear. Yeah, but. But that was it. That was the prophetic word. And that was that. That was the kindest, most loving thing the Lord could do in that moment and just call out in my life.

00;50;19;26 - 00;50;37;18
Ryan Johnson
The thing that was trying to keep me from everything is that he called me to and and really what it was, was, you know, you look at the call of God, you look at his prophetic word, and you see that the fulfillment of the prophetic word in the prophetic word like that's what's deposited in your spirit. But what he gives you is a scene.

00;50;37;18 - 00;50;57;10
Ryan Johnson
He doesn't give you it right away. Yeah, but so you see the word and then you look at your life and like, There's no way that I could ever be that guy or make that happen. And so that's what I was wrestling through. And the longer I set myself in my circumstance, the more vibrant. But that was an intervention from the Lord that that that sparked something in my life.

00;50;57;10 - 00;51;14;22
Ryan Johnson
And, you know, I knew I had to take aim at something. Wow. So it'd be it'd be things like that. Another time I went to a conference in Nashville and I'm in a room with 2000 people, and the lead pastor is the Sunday before the conference. He stands me up in front of the whole room. He says, Who are you?

00;51;14;25 - 00;51;33;19
Ryan Johnson
And and then he just gives me this word about what God's going to do in my life. And and he's kind of beside himself on stage and he's crying and talking to me. And there's there's a team from Vancouver with me there. I guess it's not even about the word specific. It's just the affirmation of heaven. Like we could not escape what I was saying, right?

00;51;33;21 - 00;51;56;11
Ryan Johnson
So that prophet that phoned me when I was in Miami actually became one of my best friends and came to help in the church multiple times. You'd fly in and you had a minister in me. And then and then the Lord had me give him things to the gifts and the grace that that God had in my life for His own pain and his own brokenness.

00;51;56;11 - 00;52;15;15
Ryan Johnson
And so the Lord just formed a lot around this space. So that was that was the context. And so that Tuesday that we gathered, we had no clue we were going to gather it because the moment that the owner of the building knew that the church was shutting down, he put that space up for lease again, because we didn't have a lease.

00;52;15;15 - 00;52;25;05
Ryan Johnson
We were just in there by his grace. And so my heart sank. I'm like, What are we going to do? Church planting? You got to have the building, you got the money, you got to have the plan, you got to have the brand, the name, all these things.

00;52;25;11 - 00;52;26;06
Joshua Hoffert
Three years worth, and.

00;52;26;11 - 00;52;26;20
Ryan Johnson
That was.

00;52;26;20 - 00;52;28;06
Joshua Hoffert
Finances raised and.

00;52;28;11 - 00;52;28;24
Ryan Johnson
Yeah.

00;52;28;26 - 00;52;29;18
Joshua Hoffert
The social. That was.

00;52;29;18 - 00;52;39;11
Ryan Johnson
My discipleship. That's what I knew you needed to have to be successful in the 21st century. We had none of it. By God's grace. Looking back.

00;52;39;11 - 00;52;43;06
Joshua Hoffert
You probably never even sold out an application to be a church planter, right?

00;52;43;17 - 00;53;00;23
Ryan Johnson
no. And I'm the most disqualified guy when it comes to that, you know, because, you know, anybody will look at my heart in that moment, not not over sin, but like, you know, doubt. And I didn't have vision. I didn't I did not ask anybody of what I was doing. I didn't I didn't know how to preach.

00;53;00;25 - 00;53;15;09
Ryan Johnson
I didn't know how to lead. All I had was, you know, God's call in my life. All I had was God's timing, which was now, yeah, you can't wait. And the circumstances of people who are broken and in need of a shepherd.

00;53;15;09 - 00;53;16;03
Joshua Hoffert
And a good wife.

00;53;16;03 - 00;53;22;11
Ryan Johnson
And so. And my God, a gift from God in my life. Yeah.

00;53;22;14 - 00;53;30;00
Joshua Hoffert
You were saying? You were telling us at one point she said to you you had an offer to go to North Carolina in the midst of all of that, right?

00;53;30;03 - 00;53;44;27
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. She looked at me and she said, It's too easy. And what does that mean? That was just like in in that like a pack of theology, right? Like, yeah. And God is like, that's not what this is about God isn't about escaping struggle.

00;53;44;27 - 00;53;47;25
Joshua Hoffert
It's got his target on you hundred percent.

00;53;47;27 - 00;54;02;02
Ryan Johnson
And so we, we, we had that meeting on Tuesday. I didn't know we were going to gather. And the next day I got an email from the owner of the building. It was quite an influential business guy in our city and says, okay, well this. And he was involved with the church prior. So he's also a little disrupted from what happened.

00;54;02;02 - 00;54;22;10
Ryan Johnson
But he said, okay, we're going to do this, but this doesn't do it right. Let's make sure that it has the internal structure and the, you know, the biblical model that would sustain it if if something did happen or, you know, you know, just good church governance. And in fact he said in it on free it this in the email he said this time the church has to slay.

00;54;22;12 - 00;54;40;11
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. And that was just you know, this is this is a guy who's into like heavy metal and rock, but this is his language to say, hey, you know, let's do it well. And and so, you know, that was such an affirmation from the Lord. Again, like we step out in faith, we don't know where we're going. And then all of a sudden we have a place to meet on a Sunday.

00;54;40;13 - 00;55;02;14
Joshua Hoffert
So did you with that? Did you go I'm just curious because you had you had seen in in your upbringing, you know, it was seeing a what seemed to be an incongruous display of, you know, charismatic gifts, but lack of character and a lot of hurt and brokenness through through some of the people that shouldn't have been hurt and broken in your life.

00;55;02;14 - 00;55;24;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So you saw a brokenness in leadership and brokenness and modeling that to you as a young and then, you know, early twenties. You see this you know, this catalytic thing happened in the church and it just fall apart. And and so did you when he said that, let's do this right. Did you go, okay, I know the model.

00;55;24;12 - 00;55;33;23
Joshua Hoffert
Like, you know what what was your response to that? Right. Because it's like you hadn't seen anything done really, really Well, it seems like at that point.

00;55;33;26 - 00;55;56;26
Ryan Johnson
That's a that's a great question. I think I think first, the important thing for me was to have pastors, writers write, people who could speak and cover. And so what we did was we went to those Craig, Craig and Shannon Miller, who is very here. It was said, Hey, listen, you know, can you can you pastor us? Can you oversee this?

00;55;56;29 - 00;56;04;11
Ryan Johnson
Because, you know, if his blind spots in our lives or if there are spaces that we get into that we can't get out of, we can navigate well like we need the covering of people. Right?

00;56;04;16 - 00;56;05;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;56;05;09 - 00;56;25;26
Ryan Johnson
You know, and and we needed them to be local, right? We need to people to, like, be in proximity to like, be with us in this journey. And so that was that was that was a big one. You know, we kept on getting halted by this this this language prophetically of a new model. And so we knew that we couldn't just go and grab hold of something that was convenient.

00;56;25;29 - 00;56;33;19
Ryan Johnson
This is how you do churches. So we had to be stretched in that space. And that's a, you know, a long story of formation over years. Sure.

00;56;33;21 - 00;56;41;23
Murray Dueck
One question I'll throw in a question right there, too, because you have a lot of international influence going on. I mean, people offering you to be campus pastor for their movements.

00;56;41;25 - 00;56;43;01
Ryan Johnson
So I yeah.

00;56;43;04 - 00;56;57;13
Murray Dueck
They must be pretty big movements if they got campuses all over the place. So you have that opportunity, but still you make this decision that we want people speaking into our life when you have all this possible opportunity, but they have to be local.

00;56;57;15 - 00;57;36;10
Ryan Johnson
Y Yeah, good question. I think again, it's probably God's grace in that moment. I think a lot was being exposed on, you know, again, this is kind of some ecclesiology conversation, but a lot has been exposed on kind of like maybe the I don't want to I don't want to like be disrespectful in saying shallowness, but like when things looked great in some movements on the surface or in the age of social media, but knowing that there are some, you know, character that was missing internally and again, this isn't judgment.

00;57;36;10 - 00;57;38;06
Ryan Johnson
It's just like kind of what I saw.

00;57;38;06 - 00;57;44;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we've seen it in a lot of people's lives. Yeah, it's yeah, that's not rocket science to say or revelation to say. Yeah.

00;57;44;24 - 00;58;02;18
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. And so some of the revelations for us, you know, were family marriage like authenticity and not as a buzzword. Yeah, Yeah. But like we want, we want the content of our character to be a reputation. We don't want to draw ourselves externally because we just saw the result of that.

00;58;02;26 - 00;58;02;29
Murray Dueck
for.

00;58;02;29 - 00;58;26;05
Ryan Johnson
Sure. Right? We're like, Wow, All this like, fanfare and hype around this, around this church. It looks beautiful and like great music and great preaching, all these things. Yet internally it's devoid of anything that needs to be there to be, you know, for it to be sustained. And so I think I think we had the presence of mind to say, hey, listen, we need to learn from, you know, older brother or older sister in my mindset, right?

00;58;26;05 - 00;58;32;25
Ryan Johnson
Like we see that mistake, we can't make it again. And so it was quite simplistic, to be honest. It's just like kind of saying.

00;58;32;28 - 00;58;52;14
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, what is such a cool thing listening to your story? Because the two parallel things going on are being around the power of God and knowing it's the power of God. Because if your own experience, you know, I hope you don't mind me saying was just, you know, this is so yeah, you can correct me because, you know, this is just my you know, I'm still running it through my lens here so you can say, no, that's not quite right.

00;58;52;14 - 00;59;22;29
Murray Dueck
So please do that. And seeing the mistakes. But but then again, what happened to you with being mentored by these men and having people close and and choosing when you could go distance? I mean, I was on staff in this church and and we were going through it and and the senior pastor, I was his kind of sounding board and he said to me, well, I could have someone speaking into my life that that's not from here, but some in far away and like, okay, okay.

00;59;22;29 - 00;59;40;05
Murray Dueck
And then when John Paul Jackson came, he said to jump, I'll Jackson to his face. I can have someone speak to my life from here. But not far away. Exactly the opposite. Right? So he was he was swing it which way? Which whatever way he could keep people the farthest away. You're doing the exact opposite of that.

00;59;40;07 - 01;00;01;26
Murray Dueck
And I just see such a good influence of of what happened to you, of people being close that it was a good thing rather than man, if I let people close to me, they're going to be able to manipulate me. They're going to be able to, to, to, to ruin my plans. You're doing exactly the opposite of what most people would do, and it's just how God's forming you.

01;00;01;28 - 01;00;23;03
Murray Dueck
It's fascinating. You know, It's like how we set that up and I it'll be fascinating to see how this flows into your church because the formation, it's just so much fun to see the father fathering you and then that father fathering other people and just the Lord's training. It's just brilliant. Ryan. I'm just I'm just so appreciating it because that's a tough decision.

01;00;23;03 - 01;00;25;03
Murray Dueck
What you just did there is you had an.

01;00;25;05 - 01;00;25;10
Ryan Johnson
Extreme.

01;00;25;11 - 01;00;36;01
Murray Dueck
Personality as a visionary leader to take control and push everybody far away. And you didn't do it. You went the other into intimacy. Wow. Pretty cool.

01;00;36;03 - 01;00;58;07
Ryan Johnson
I think. You know, I think maybe the unorthodox space in my story, you know, I go back to 18 years old and I remember climbing up Grouse Mountain for those familiar there's a there's a there's a hike called the Grouse Grind in Vancouver. It's a couple of kilometers, just kind of like vertical up a mountain. But I'm I love that when I was younger, just kind of athletic pursuit challenge stuff.

01;00;58;07 - 01;01;16;03
Ryan Johnson
And I remember doing that by myself. And there's this really kind of ebb and flow moments of my time with the Lord. Like I have moments of kind of inspiration with him. And so I remember walking up this mountain and and God kind of like prompting my heart again. It's like those, you know, come up for air moments with the Lord, you know.

01;01;16;05 - 01;01;37;11
Ryan Johnson
And I remember the Lord saying to me again, this is not there's a depression in my heart. It's my own language, but it's a depression in my heart. I'm going to give you a marriage can change the world. A marriage? Wow. And that language is, you know, like I'm I can be cynical, too. I'm like, I want to change the world language like that.

01;01;37;12 - 01;01;53;13
Ryan Johnson
But nonetheless, that was what struck my heart. Right. And so there was something that was deposited in my heart. So this is that this is the highest value for me is value for me is in success in ministry. It has value for me. Isn't is it like accolade or all those things? And I say that now 35 years old.

01;01;53;19 - 01;02;15;18
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, yeah. That that had to take kind of for my heart. But, but the priority for me wasn't like that to try to get away with issues in my heart, the priority was to have an inner world that was that peace and joy and to have a marriage that was flourishing. that's brilliant.

01;02;15;18 - 01;02;15;28
Murray Dueck
Thank you.

01;02;15;28 - 01;02;38;29
Ryan Johnson
Lord. And so the Lord was brilliant in giving that to me because I'm going to give you a marriage opportunity, Right? I'm going to give you a marriage that's going to change the world because that's my heart craves my heart. Create family and home and something healthy, you know? And because I didn't have that growing. Yeah, but he said this to me, you got to go through me to get it.

01;02;39;02 - 01;03;03;15
Ryan Johnson
And so, so pursuing the Lord was not something that I was doing for the sake of ministry. It was for the sake of this inner world that I knew. And like in verses he will keep at perfect peace those whose minds are fixed on him. I'm like, okay, well, that's pretty absolute. Like, I want to find out what this perfect peace means.

01;03;03;17 - 01;03;22;02
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, yeah. Or like Jesus say, my joy will be complete. I mean, there became this kind of, like, vision for my life that actually had nothing to do with ministry. Yet God called me to ministry. Yes. So my priority wasn't to hide. My priority wasn't to distance. My priority was to say, Good Lord, whatever you want to say, like the prophet in the car.

01;03;22;02 - 01;03;58;17
Ryan Johnson
So you got Sid. I'm like, okay, say it like, Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. And again, this is not piety. I know my, I know my brokenness but like again, like I know God's love and kindness and grace and presence in that space in my brokenness. Why would I keep that from you. Yeah. And so I think again, those, those deposits in me maybe being a sensitive kid in the midst of pain, in the midst of the brokenness around me, I think there was always kind of a barometer for like what good was and for what healthy was.

01;03;58;20 - 01;04;20;01
Ryan Johnson
Yeah. And so so I think that was our motive of like, listen, I don't want to die in ministry. I don't want I don't want my marriage to suffer or my family to suffer. I want to be the best man. I want to be the best husband and to be the best father. And my prerogative was that that was what was going to make great ministry.

01;04;20;04 - 01;04;42;10
Ryan Johnson
And so that was our motive. Right. And again, we had we had celebrity pastors in our lives who I could call up and say, Hey, we look really good on paper. If you were my pastor, yeah, I could tell everybody that this church is covering our church. But that's not Those guys are amazing, but like, they're in different countries.

01;04;42;13 - 01;05;00;04
Ryan Johnson
Yeah, and, you know, their motive might not be my motives, and I don't, you know, it might be clear on paper, but in relationship was it looked like we need people that we're just going to sit down and tell us the truth. So that's that's kind of our thinking through that.

01;05;00;06 - 01;05;16;13
Murray Dueck
You know, I'll just throw in a thought for the listeners here, because if you're listening, it's such an important thing that that verse comes to my mind. God works out all things together for good, who believe and you know, he doesn't cause these things, you know, this pain and this relational stuff in your family, you know all know that.

01;05;16;17 - 01;05;37;11
Murray Dueck
But it's amazing how he can shape us through life experience for the good And for anybody out there listening that you've gone through stuff, it actually qualifies you. It doesn't disqualify you as you got into the midst of it. It shapes you because you meet the father and and anyway, I just I love it.

01;05;37;14 - 01;05;59;25
Joshua Hoffert
I love that the the marking moment for your life wasn't marked to be a pastor, but it was marks to be a lover. Yeah. And you couldn't get away from that gaze, right? I love that. That. That's. That's. That's what I'm, you know, just thinking about that. That, you know, when the Lord says that, I'll give you a message that'll change the world, Right?

01;05;59;27 - 01;06;14;14
Murray Dueck
We just have to we have to ask somebody out there is asking it. So when you're a dating and you told your wife, that's why the way God told me that you were going to marry, you know, I'm going to have a marriage that'll change the world. What did you do?

01;06;14;17 - 01;06;18;26
Ryan Johnson
Well, I'm pretty sure I didn't say a thing like that to her, but my my wife said.

01;06;18;26 - 01;06;22;01
Joshua Hoffert
You say it to the girls at 18.

01;06;22;04 - 01;06;45;28
Ryan Johnson
How you. You the one that's going to change the world right? Yeah, I know. And again, that's that's the Lord sovereignty in my life. And one of the one of the best stories where my my wife, who's five years younger than I am, she kind of had eyes for me long before the eyes for her. And I hate saying that because she's way better human than I am.

01;06;46;00 - 01;06;48;09
Murray Dueck
Just very prophetic. She picked up on. Yeah.

01;06;48;15 - 01;07;05;20
Ryan Johnson
yeah, she knew. She knew. And, and she wasn't even in that spiritual that much when in fact the Lord of that place in her life. But she just she just kind of knew and she kind of let it be and she's very mature about it, which is quite attractive at the end of the day. But it took me a long time to catch up to that.

01;07;05;20 - 01;07;25;25
Ryan Johnson
But it was really the Lord. You put a neon sign over this girl and said, If you do not see what is in her, you're an idiot. I really don't. The Lord never said that to me, like in those words, but that's why I felt it was. They also my eyes became open. I'm like this This girl will love you till the day you die like this.

01;07;25;28 - 01;07;47;04
Ryan Johnson
And I in my my flesh, in my and my kind of perception of what I wanted in marriage. It didn't really land, but that was God's grace in my life to say, Listen, trust me, trust me. And to be honest, she has become the greatest treasure in the greatest friend, in the greatest partner in life and in ministry.

01;07;47;04 - 01;08;01;09
Ryan Johnson
And that's amazing. And and I can say that in in some way, shape or form, even though that's extreme language change the world. Yeah, yeah. The foundation of our marriage has become the thing that I think is our greatest ministry.

01;08;01;12 - 01;08;19;03
Murray Dueck
Amen. Because it's interesting how you could interpret that statement, right? You're, you know, you're going to change the world through us. But. But it changed you. Our marriage and what it means together as a community will change the world. Right. It's just such a cool I love.

01;08;19;07 - 01;08;45;01
Joshua Hoffert
You know, Mary pointing out the whole fathering aspect. I love because because essentially you've got now. Okay, I'm you know, in a way, I'm I'm not going to let my my family life be like the family life I grew up with. Right. I'm not going to let my church structure leadership dynamic in my church that I'm leading be like the church I grew up in.

01;08;45;03 - 01;09;09;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so, you know, in a once button. But a negative doesn't necessarily give you the vision of what it's going to be right but can help you clarify what it's not but it doesn't necessarily show you what it is. But then you've got these moments laced throughout where the father keeps coming and encountering you and saying like saying, you know, you're it's your marriage that's going to make the difference, essentially.

01;09;09;27 - 01;09;24;17
Joshua Hoffert
Right. If we're going to reinterpret phrase, it's your marriage is going to make the difference. So he's he's giving you moments to give you clarity for what it looks like because you already see what it's not supposed to be. I don't want that. I know I don't want that. Right. I know I don't want that. So what do I want the father's like?

01;09;24;17 - 01;09;26;15
Joshua Hoffert
Well, remember that. Remember that? Remember that?

01;09;26;15 - 01;09;27;09
Murray Dueck
Brilliant.

01;09;27;11 - 01;09;32;18
Joshua Hoffert
One of the things I've been thinking about. I want to read this. This is a quote from Ryan.

01;09;32;22 - 01;09;36;26
Ryan Johnson
Okay, Let's see if you get it. If you get it right.

01;09;36;26 - 01;09;39;07
Joshua Hoffert
I typed it out verbatim, so.

01;09;39;09 - 01;09;40;12
Ryan Johnson


01;09;40;14 - 01;10;00;12
Joshua Hoffert
Actually, actually, YouTube does the transcripts. So I grabbed it from there and I sent this to you already because I've been I've been thinking about this just as we've been talking. And beforehand. That's why I wrote it out. So you were talking about Second Chronicles seven the that verse that talks about if my people. I think that was the context for this.

01;10;00;12 - 01;10;17;20
Joshua Hoffert
If my people who will humble will humble themselves and cry out and pray, I'll come and heal their land. You were talking about that. This was the Sunday that I was there and you said this God is showing them how to live in the land without living in the land. We are called to live in Vancouver without Vancouver living in us.

01;10;17;23 - 01;10;35;20
Joshua Hoffert
The people of God are to be distinguished and distinct from everybody else. We can't bow to the same idols the city vows to. This isn't just about your freedom. This is about the city's freedom. Don't we think that a city in a nation in this world can turn back to God and tell the truth and shame the devil?

01;10;35;22 - 01;11;00;03
Joshua Hoffert
But it requires the people in the land not bowing to the same idols everyone else bowed to. The churches, entertained the idols far too long. This is why our influence is diminished, because we can't offer anything to the world that they don't already have. We are. I think I'm operating in your anointing right now. We are flowing. We are flirting with the same ideas that exist out there and wondering whether or not we should buy into them in the church.

01;11;00;09 - 01;11;35;22
Joshua Hoffert
We're trying to win the world with their own devices. And what I love about that, that whole that whole statement is you're not just calling out the world for the world's bad ideas. You're calling out the church for the church's bad ideas. And and so that quote makes me think you in a way, you deconstructed your religious upbringing, but you didn't deconstruct it to into utter nothingness like the current deconstruction movement is you you went, That's not it.

01;11;35;24 - 01;11;58;14
Joshua Hoffert
There's got to be something greater. And and all I can see and you know, this is the part that I think people wrestle with, is people get hurt by a religious upbringing or they get hurt in church. That just happens. And they don't have that that moment where the father visited them like you visited, you got to go.

01;11;58;19 - 01;12;21;16
Joshua Hoffert
I know that. Like, I know that's not what he's like. Like we had a Eric Jensen on here a few months ago, six months ago, talking about his book. I Erik's a good friend of Mary's. And one of Eric's initial prophetic experiences was a prophet in a church, calling him out and reading out a laundry list of his sins that were not actual in his life.

01;12;21;18 - 01;12;30;26
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, he would he had been quite clean for a few years at that point. And but he didn't look the part, right. He looked like a hippie.

01;12;30;28 - 01;12;32;13
Murray Dueck
Somebody looked like what the guy said.

01;12;32;16 - 01;12;50;11
Joshua Hoffert
I looked like what the guy said, but he wasn't practicing that. Right. So what Eric said is that I had already encountered the father's heart, and so I knew that's not what he was like. So he had this moment that he could weigh against the prophetic moment and get and go, God's like, this is not like that. Right?

01;12;50;11 - 01;13;14;09
Joshua Hoffert
And you had you had moments where you can go, That's what God's like. That's not. And my heart goes out to some of the listeners who who who don't have that moment. And it's like it's like, I just want to go just get on your face and cry out, you know, or get around people that are pursuing those moments, like get around people like, you know, if you're in Vancouver, go to church on title because those are moments you're pursuing with people.

01;13;14;09 - 01;13;31;25
Joshua Hoffert
That's what I saw when I was there on the Sunday was that you were inviting people to have a moment like the moments you had. And so it what it really was, look, it's it's I mean, I have a good friend. He says one encounter can change everything and. That's absolutely true. But the one encounter doesn't usually change everything in the moment.

01;13;31;28 - 01;13;36;17
Joshua Hoffert
It changes everything in ten years when you reflect back on it and go, my goodness, that's what it's like.

01;13;36;17 - 01;13;38;05
Murray Dueck
He's got to grow. Yeah, yeah.

01;13;38;06 - 01;13;48;23
Joshua Hoffert
But the science teacher pointing you're pointing your out and saying, this is the most brilliant guy here, right? Or the prophetic guy embracing you and hugging you and ten years later going, my goodness, that's what the love of God is like, right?

01;13;48;26 - 01;13;49;24
Ryan Johnson
Yeah.

01;13;49;26 - 01;14;14;18
Joshua Hoffert
And so it's it's not so much the moment itself changes you, but it's the moment deposit's the seed that begins to work itself out. And so it's like I could see these shades of you. You've, you've shed the notion of false religion and you've got it's got to be real. And, and I just love that. So I guess it's an observation more than anything else.

01;14;14;18 - 01;14;16;26
Joshua Hoffert
But yeah.