The Difference Between Information About God and Knowing God, another Bridal Paradigm Episode

Another week, another episode of Voices from the Desert! Today, Murray and Josh continue their discussion about the Bride/Bridegroom paradigm. Scripture comes rushing to its conclusion in Revelation 21 when we see the bride as a city descending upon the earth to reign with God. Understanding this throughline is crucial for understanding scripture. What are the implications of that dynamic in our lives practically? And how did the earliest Christians respond to the bride/bridegroom revelation of Jesus? Join us in today's episode as we dive in to find out! 
.
"Amazed, I am astonished at the shapeliness of his beauty, 
and how the Creator stooped down when He opened the heavens 
and displayed his unspeakable and strange glory to me." 
Symeon the New Theologian

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/
For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

00;00;16;29 - 00;00;26;11
Murray Dueck
But. But like I experience, it should be a sign on the road. On a journey of becoming Brexit. That's what they should be.

00;00;26;13 - 00;00;59;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. That's right. It seems to me that people in in our contemporary society mistake up here for the information of a thing with knowledge about that thing.

00;00;59;06 - 00;01;07;17
Joshua Hoffert
You. Welcome, everybody to another episode of This is another week, another episode.

00;01;07;20 - 00;01;08;25
Murray Dueck
And a week and an episode.

00;01;08;29 - 00;01;14;25
Joshua Hoffert
A week and an episode of voices from the desert.

00;01;14;26 - 00;01;26;13
Murray Dueck
Desert world. Ooh ooh. You know, everybody that we know. If you do, the hell with us. You're on board.

00;01;26;19 - 00;01;28;22
Joshua Hoffert
You're in. Yeah. That's right. Yeah that's right, that's right.

00;01;28;22 - 00;01;29;17
Murray Dueck
Did you, did you.

00;01;29;18 - 00;01;59;17
Joshua Hoffert
Regardless, regardless of whether you're in a desert or not. Yeah. Because now we know that the desert is taken metaphorical meaning on. Because the desert isn't just a place you go. It's the desert of your heart. Yeah. And that I learned that one from Benedict Award. Oh, and, yeah, she talks about the pilgrimage, spiritual pilgrimage, and how over time, it it went from the, the idea of going into a desert to the idea of the heart being the desert.

00;01;59;19 - 00;02;11;28
Murray Dueck
Well, and a Benedictine ward is a very big, speaker, in Orthodox circles, I believe, and really talking to, evangelicals trying to explain language, if I'm not mistaken, I think.

00;02;12;04 - 00;02;14;21
Joshua Hoffert
She's not orthodox, though. She's not orthodox.

00;02;14;23 - 00;02;15;16
Murray Dueck
Oh, is she not?

00;02;15;19 - 00;02;20;24
Joshua Hoffert
No, no, no, she's an she is an Anglican reader.

00;02;20;27 - 00;02;21;16
Murray Dueck
Really?

00;02;21;21 - 00;02;30;26
Joshua Hoffert
Benedict Award, she translated the sayings of the Desert Fathers. It's the pretty much the de facto version that people go to. But she I'm, I'm would imagine.

00;02;31;00 - 00;02;32;13
Murray Dueck
Typing it into, yeah.

00;02;32;13 - 00;02;34;14
Joshua Hoffert
We're on the fly Google search results.

00;02;34;17 - 00;02;36;16
Murray Dueck
We're talking about the same person here.

00;02;36;19 - 00;02;38;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, maybe we're talking about a different person.

00;02;38;15 - 00;02;40;12
Murray Dueck
But Benedict de.

00;02;40;15 - 00;02;41;29
Joshua Hoffert
Benedict. yeah. Benedict.

00;02;42;03 - 00;02;44;23
Murray Dueck
You were talking about a different last name. Ward.

00;02;45;15 - 00;02;50;12
Joshua Hoffert
so maybe that's very possible. Mary and I get confused a lot. Everybody, just so you know, these.

00;02;50;14 - 00;02;56;23
Murray Dueck
You know, Ignatius, Athanasius, Irenaeus, come on, guys, mix it up a little bit. It's two.

00;02;56;25 - 00;03;09;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's I know. And then and then not only that and then it's like every 100 years there's another one with the same name, you know, and it's like, well, what am I supposed to do with that? Right? It's like we were.

00;03;09;27 - 00;03;10;25
Murray Dueck
Using well.

00;03;10;25 - 00;03;20;24
Joshua Hoffert
We were talking about John Cassian earlier. Right. And I said, oh, you know, in his conferences on with, Isaac of Isaac. And it's like, well, is that Isaac the Syrian? Is it Isaac?

00;03;20;27 - 00;03;21;08
Murray Dueck
I know he.

00;03;21;10 - 00;03;22;21
Joshua Hoffert
Did. Isaac. Is it right?

00;03;22;22 - 00;03;23;18
Murray Dueck
Who are we talking about?

00;03;23;25 - 00;03;33;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Which one are we talking about here? That was actually when I did the all of the articles on the Desert Fathers in the Desert Mothers. You know, I did the 52 articles over. Yeah, a couple of years stuff.

00;03;33;21 - 00;03;34;05
Murray Dueck
Everybody.

00;03;34;05 - 00;03;43;23
Joshua Hoffert
All right. One of the one of the hardest parts about it was when you're doing the research, figuring out if you have the right father or the right mother.

00;03;43;23 - 00;03;45;24
Murray Dueck
That would be just going.

00;03;45;27 - 00;04;00;26
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, it would be like, okay, is this the actual right guy? And I there's some of them where I'm still not 100% convinced there's some of them that's obvious. You know, Mercury is a great we know. But but even then when I was doing it because you've got Mercury is of Alexandria and you've got Macarius of Egypt.

00;04;00;28 - 00;04;02;10
Murray Dueck
So which Mercury go is it?

00;04;02;10 - 00;04;17;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right. One was way more prolific than the other one. And so you'd have to figure out even the ones that seemed a lot clearer. You could still get easily confused by. And, and they just it's the guys, you know, let's make it a little bit easier.

00;04;17;18 - 00;04;19;11
Murray Dueck
You know, it's pure. I mean.

00;04;19;13 - 00;04;21;28
Joshua Hoffert
Josh and Marie would just be Josh and Marie.

00;04;22;02 - 00;04;27;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So, I mean, I've always wondered if I ever converted what I'd have to change my name to. Like, do you get.

00;04;27;08 - 00;04;30;28
Joshua Hoffert
To choose your name or do you get the someone conferred upon you?

00;04;30;29 - 00;04;36;12
Murray Dueck
I think you get to choose it. That's that's my, understanding.

00;04;36;15 - 00;04;37;05
Joshua Hoffert
You can see.

00;04;37;08 - 00;04;42;19
Murray Dueck
Where you're drawn to their theology or been in right here.

00;04;42;19 - 00;04;46;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, but very still looking up Benedict Award and trying to figure this out. Yeah.

00;04;46;27 - 00;04;48;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah, totally through me, I like.

00;04;48;18 - 00;05;00;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. You can tell. You could tell if you guys have listened to us for any length of time that we're, we're not quite as evangelical as we used to be, but we're definitely not as orthodox as some want us to be.

00;05;00;12 - 00;05;02;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right.

00;05;02;13 - 00;05;20;16
Joshua Hoffert
You know, and we're not, we're we're we have a great deal of respect for the Catholic writers in the Catholic Church. We were just talking about John of the cross and and John Cassian, you know, he'd be a Western theologian. And, although the East would claim as well in terms of saints, because the time frame. But, you know, we're we're like, Mary and I are kind of all over the place.

00;05;20;18 - 00;05;21;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And you know.

00;05;21;14 - 00;05;33;26
Murray Dueck
What it is? We teach so much and do so much like didactic theology that it has to have really crisp segue ways that when do we get to do this? We're like, screw it. They're not doing any Segways at all. There's this is going to ramble because.

00;05;33;29 - 00;05;34;14
Joshua Hoffert
We're just.

00;05;34;14 - 00;05;36;05
Murray Dueck
Doing it 30 years.

00;05;36;08 - 00;05;37;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So that not just ramble. That's right.

00;05;37;29 - 00;05;41;17
Murray Dueck
Part of it too. But and it's just you know, most podcasts are kind of that way. So.

00;05;41;17 - 00;05;44;26
Joshua Hoffert
Well they, you know, you're you're maybe, maybe ironic. How has I.

00;05;44;26 - 00;05;47;01
Murray Dueck
Got to stop looking. Because I just have cat videos coming up.

00;05;47;01 - 00;05;48;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Okay. I'll find.

00;05;48;14 - 00;05;51;01
Murray Dueck
It later because I'm like, this totally confuse me.

00;05;51;01 - 00;06;12;08
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe at this point, our audience appreciates our irreverence for, you know, either if if it's evangelical, charismatic, Pentecostal, Mennonite, reformed or whatever, you know, we've got an irreverence on that side. But then when we're talking about the orthodox Catholic side, we've got a fair bit of irreverence on that side as well. And we don't quite do that justice.

00;06;12;08 - 00;06;13;27
Murray Dueck
And yes, that's very true.

00;06;14;01 - 00;06;40;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And so if you're along for the journey, you're basically just along to hear Murray and I ramble and talk about the things that we think are important. Yeah, they're at least important to us. as we've said, you know, many times when we record these episodes, we, we I, we're, we're now recording an hour and, over an hour and a half into the actual time we started getting we got together to.

00;06;40;15 - 00;06;48;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. It seems to happen. I always say we should actually record our pre record time. People might find that that more.

00;06;48;29 - 00;06;55;28
Joshua Hoffert
The problem is, Murray told the Murray tells stories about naked men running through ministry times. And so we.

00;06;55;28 - 00;06;58;15
Murray Dueck
Just can't tell that story. We just.

00;06;58;18 - 00;07;00;02
Joshua Hoffert
We just can't. this.

00;07;00;02 - 00;07;03;27
Murray Dueck
Is a true story. It is. It's it happened.

00;07;04;00 - 00;07;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
And what Murray made clear when he told me that he didn't see anything.

00;07;06;22 - 00;07;10;28
Murray Dueck
So I was praised for people. I missed the whole thing.

00;07;11;00 - 00;07;19;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Yeah. So that's that's the reason why we don't typically record the preamble is because things come up that we're like, well, we did that out later.

00;07;19;11 - 00;07;22;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;07;22;03 - 00;07;22;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;07;22;13 - 00;07;31;27
Murray Dueck
Yes. We'll have to, anyway, that'll let, let's just say that many people had quite the, they've got some exposure that they.

00;07;32;03 - 00;07;38;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There you go. Well let's just didactic. We segway away from that okay. Yes, yes.

00;07;38;20 - 00;07;41;24
Murray Dueck
That did happen everybody. You don't need any more knowledge or this sorry.

00;07;41;26 - 00;07;42;20
Joshua Hoffert
No more knowledge.

00;07;42;20 - 00;07;49;00
Murray Dueck
So let's just say that someone wanted to do the dance of David, and they misinterpreted the passage.

00;07;49;14 - 00;07;51;13
Joshua Hoffert
very, very dramatically misinterpreted.

00;07;51;13 - 00;07;55;04
Murray Dueck
That. Yeah. heart was in the right place, but nothing else, fortunately.

00;07;55;06 - 00;08;17;19
Joshua Hoffert
So, Murray, we've been on this kick, for the last few weeks. What kind of started, just as a thought when it came to exploring the idea of the bridle paradigm in Scripture and, Murray, you had suggested it and we've just we found we found, the more we dive into it, the more there is to kind of.

00;08;17;24 - 00;08;36;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we're definitely discovering there's a a lot of offshoots here, a lot of roads that we could take as, I mean, you know, as you were talking about the theology of a bridle paradigm, you know, it's it's going to you'll see it today start to move up. How has the church applied this, especially with the desert fathers and mothers.

00;08;36;19 - 00;09;00;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And then. And how do you apply today. So you can kind of see that we've all of a sudden, maybe bit off a lot more than we could chew here in one, in one bite. So which is good, right. Because, you know, theology there's orthodoxy, right. Belief. And then there's ortho praxis. Right. Application. Right. And and you know, we're starting to kind of move here a little bit.

00;09;00;27 - 00;09;13;16
Murray Dueck
So but very important, very important. And I said to Josh earlier and I think this is a good thought and I think it it, it hits our audience right in the sweet spot. So,

00;09;13;19 - 00;09;17;06
Joshua Hoffert
Just stop thinking about your ministry times, Mary. Sorry.

00;09;17;07 - 00;09;19;07
Murray Dueck
Okay.

00;09;19;09 - 00;09;21;27
Joshua Hoffert
So I no pun intended.

00;09;21;29 - 00;09;42;00
Murray Dueck
Well, a little bit. I shouldn't have the. So, that, you know, it's just charismatics. We've we've had this experience of the heart awakening. Right. And and I would say, you know, most of us probably, maybe not all, but have come out of some very didactic, theological, times or churches.

00;09;42;03 - 00;10;00;20
Joshua Hoffert
And for the record, as you're saying that, Mary, just hold that thought, please. Okay. When we're when we at this point in our lives, when we say that we are charismatics, what we don't typically mean by that is that we are falling down, tongues, speaking crazy, flopping all over the place types of people.

00;10;00;24 - 00;10;05;12
Murray Dueck
Oh, I don't know about you. it's I'm not saying.

00;10;05;14 - 00;10;09;28
Joshua Hoffert
I'm not saying. I'm not saying that that's not part of our experience.

00;10;10;01 - 00;10;12;22
Murray Dueck
But when we say it's not a major part of the experience, no.

00;10;12;23 - 00;10;13;08
Joshua Hoffert
But what.

00;10;13;08 - 00;10;21;21
Murray Dueck
Will happen? It happens to everybody. It happens. But is that a defining moment of my Christianity now? No.

00;10;21;23 - 00;10;22;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;10;22;04 - 00;10;36;14
Murray Dueck
So and there was a time I believed it was this is the apex of Christian experience. It's this direct encounter with God which I do believe direct encounter with God is the apex, but that fits more into now what we're talking about today.

00;10;36;16 - 00;10;37;05
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;10;37;05 - 00;10;49;27
Murray Dueck
And that's what I was. That was the apex. Now I'm holy. I'm filled with the spirit. God is with me. I'll be in manifest presence all the time, and I'll be giving it away. And people will be getting saved. And yes, you know, not so much.

00;10;50;03 - 00;11;16;05
Joshua Hoffert
What we would what we would describe as the charismatic experience today would be what you had, just what you just said, the heart awakening. Right. And that's and there is the kind of core of what it means to us now I don't know. Everybody's in agree with us. But there in lies the core of what it actually means to have been moved by the charismatic, charismatic mover, been involved in the charismatic move.

00;11;16;07 - 00;11;36;02
Joshua Hoffert
There was a heart awakening that lately reoriented your life. And now that's kind of different sects of that have spiraled into different places. But for Murray and I, just to clarify for the audience, that's when we say we're charismatic. That would probably be an accurate way of something that up. We have had a heart awaken. Yeah, we've had a heart awakening.

00;11;36;02 - 00;11;47;04
Joshua Hoffert
And it's been a direct, impression upon our inner life from the Holy Spirit that had a profound and dramatic impact upon us. And so.

00;11;47;04 - 00;11;50;17
Murray Dueck
Can you. And let's break that down a little bit, if you don't mind, because.

00;11;50;19 - 00;11;52;09
Joshua Hoffert
Did you hold the thought? You're still holding the thought.

00;11;52;09 - 00;11;54;03
Murray Dueck
I hope I've moved on to a different thought.

00;11;54;10 - 00;11;54;21
Joshua Hoffert
Okay.

00;11;54;25 - 00;12;17;23
Murray Dueck
But it's a good, that other thought, I don't know. It's simply, Yeah. Well, you know, everybody, why don't we try something? Let's just makes it practical. It took me 40s. We've just maybe done it before, but, because I want to make a comment about charismatic churches and and, this heart awakening thing because it's a it's an important it's an important point that that is very real.

00;12;17;23 - 00;12;41;19
Murray Dueck
And very important. So we don't want to we don't want to treat it lightly here. And I don't think we are. But but but here's the kind of thing. So then everybody, you know, forgive me if, if we've done this before or if I'm pushing the narrative too hard, but it's I think it's important. So, everybody take take 20s, if you don't mind everyone listening, take 20s and think an administrative thought.

00;12;41;21 - 00;13;04;28
Murray Dueck
Something you got to do today? Groceries, taxes. and remember a former address. If you can write, if you want to do it that way. see if you can remember your spouse's phone number because nobody does anymore. Because it's all on auto dial on the phone. But just take 20s. Okay. Administrative thought. What do I going to buy today for the animals?

00;13;07;28 - 00;13;24;18
Murray Dueck
And, you know, point with your finger where those thoughts are happening. Just humor me. I can't see you. But by faith, you know, you're probably going to point to the noggin right? Right there. Okay, so so try this as the charismatic. Let's let's do it this way first. And and and let's do it a couple different ways.

00;13;24;18 - 00;13;51;27
Murray Dueck
So you know again everybody got a test revelation with Scripture and fruit Peter. Goodness patient fruit of the spirit. Inner witness confirmation bouncing off others. Lots of tests. But you got to have something to test. Let's let's get something to test here. So try this. Everybody inside voice inside. Now don't loud try this. My son, my daughter I love you and let it flow for 20s inside voice.

00;13;51;27 - 00;14;01;00
Murray Dueck
Well, I'll do it. I'll do it to son. My daughter. I love you and.

00;14;01;03 - 00;14;04;21
Joshua Hoffert
You're saying here the like as if the father saying that over you. That's what you mean?

00;14;04;21 - 00;14;21;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. Just like the father saying it over you. inside voice. Just let it flow. That river flow, son. My daughter, I love you. And just like the father saying it.

00;14;21;16 - 00;14;41;04
Murray Dueck
Okay. And if you could point with your finger where that's going on, where would you point? And probably your point to your heart down here. Okay, now that's an important distinction. The part of you that was probably criticizing what are we doing right now? Probably up in the head. Right. So but just think about this. What's going on in that location.

00;14;41;04 - 00;15;03;15
Murray Dueck
So where do you feel conviction kind of right there. Right. What about Thanksgiving. So everybody just take a second and be thankful. Do not be drunk with wine but be full of the spirit. Sing songs and musical, spiritual songs from your heart to the Lord and be thankful. Just be thankful for a second. Where's that? It's down there.

00;15;03;18 - 00;15;22;11
Murray Dueck
What about. Have you ever had a song playing inside of you? And you're like, what is that song? Where's her coming from? I know the words to that. What part of you is wondering what song it is and what part of it is actually singing it? Right. Same thing. Now here, here's the thing. I just want to point this out.

00;15;22;21 - 00;15;38;29
Murray Dueck
or have you ever been open mic at church? One more. It's open mike at church, and you feel the tug of the Lord go up there, right? And and you're like, no way. I'm not going. Right. I'm going to make a fool of myself. What? Where do you experience the tug and what part of you is going.

00;15;38;29 - 00;16;00;29
Murray Dueck
Don't you dare. Right. You know, there's a head and heart thing going on here. So? So why this is important is that in, you know, Western theology, we tried to train this big brain thing up here, which is important. Luke was a doctor. Paul was quite a theologian. But but you know, Paul says when Ephesians three right, he's in prison.

00;16;00;29 - 00;16;16;18
Murray Dueck
People are freaking out. May God strengthen you in their inner man. So Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, so you would know how high and wide and long a deep is a love of Christ. Those are all hard things inside your inner man. Right? Paul uses this term secret man of the heart. Peter does. Sorry.

00;16;17;05 - 00;16;38;29
Murray Dueck
that surpasses kenosis, that you may be filled to all the fullness of God. So in the charismatic experience that you're having, this third awakening and you know, everyone, this is a kind of a big deal, because, I mean, when we look, let's say we look at charismatic churches, you know, you have in your congregation probably, you know, 60% women, maybe more.

00;16;39;01 - 00;17;12;13
Murray Dueck
And, and they really want their husbands to come. But but where are they? And the problem is, if you come into a charismatic heart experience where this inner heart is awoken, where this song is playing from, where you and you're just living out of your head, it's really difficult to be there. And like for me, at the end of a day's work, if I'm working on the farm here, I'm building a building and I'm having to to, put up a wall or put in a foundation, and I'm thinking mathematically, and then I have to go right into sessions where I'm having to be aware of the Spirit's doing.

00;17;12;13 - 00;17;28;26
Murray Dueck
It's tough to do because I got I've got to get out of my head. And so the, you know, so we have two problems here and we're talking about them a little bit is once your heart awakens to divine love. And in the charismatic culture, you have to have an encounter for that. So that's yeah.

00;17;28;26 - 00;17;30;05
Joshua Hoffert
That's the language that we typically.

00;17;30;05 - 00;17;50;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So if you have an encounter and you awaken to divine love, you'll notice you want more. You want to go to meetings, you want to get prayed for, you want to come, Holy Spirit, you want. Right? Because it's not just a cerebral left brain thing anymore, but your heart awakens. And that's this divine love. That's the beginning of the of this journey.

00;17;50;20 - 00;18;11;00
Murray Dueck
and and to, you know, and the you know, we're going to talk about it here. The ancient church has different language for this a little bit, but, but the thing being that this is a journey that goes somewhere. And so in the charismatic church, we found a way that awakens, but we have found no way to maintain it.

00;18;11;02 - 00;18;11;28
Joshua Hoffert
That's really good.

00;18;11;28 - 00;18;24;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Other than in an external experience by a worship team, by laying on of hands by, you know, charismatic preacher and and, you know, so.

00;18;24;28 - 00;18;25;27
Joshua Hoffert
Then it flames out.

00;18;25;27 - 00;18;28;13
Murray Dueck
And and then it flames out and, and we wonder.

00;18;28;15 - 00;18;35;08
Joshua Hoffert
What happened to that person. What happened to me? Yes. Well, I used to be so passionate. I used to love Jesus so much, and I've lost it all.

00;18;35;10 - 00;18;35;28
Murray Dueck
That's right.

00;18;36;05 - 00;18;37;03
Joshua Hoffert
What's wrong with me?

00;18;37;08 - 00;19;01;15
Murray Dueck
And often what happens is if you go if you've had a heart awakening experience and then you try to follow Christ in, in just to theology, you know, and I don't know how many people they see. I when I first got saved, I had six months of passion for Jesus. I don't know where it went. Well, that's because you only had the left side of your brain training for six months, and nobody taught you how to just sit in the presence of God, right?

00;19;01;17 - 00;19;32;08
Murray Dueck
And these were the other problem is you have these charismatic experiences in the charismatic church, and now you're put to work where it's about the vision of the leader, or it's about, you know, serving in the church, which again, that's it's not bad, but if you don't have a foundation of divine love where you're cultivating it, I mean, how many marriages flame out because, you know, you started out passionate for each other, and now with kids and work and ministry, you don't have time to work on it.

00;19;32;11 - 00;19;56;17
Murray Dueck
Same with Jesus. Right. And and I'll, I'll throw in this one thought that's going to mess you all up, which I hope it does. so in our theology, we not only need to have an understanding of this divine love for his bride, which is, you know, so going back to last week and it begins in a wonderful, charismatic way in the, in the charismatic church of encounter.

00;19;56;19 - 00;20;11;06
Murray Dueck
And, and, you know, when you have it, when you want to go to more meetings, you want to say, come, Holy Spirit, you want hens lay it on you. You want to be prophesied over you. You know, you want to be down on the ground. You, you, you. That hunger is the beginning of a journey to something deeper.

00;20;11;08 - 00;20;28;27
Murray Dueck
And that's the beginning of it. And God wants that because no one can come to the Lord unless the Lord draws them. Right. That's this is John three or sorry, Ephesians three that I just quoted. you know, the Lord wants us. It's a good spot for that ecstasy verse. We'll come back to that.

00;20;28;29 - 00;20;29;22
Joshua Hoffert
We'll come back to that.

00;20;29;22 - 00;20;55;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah, but but you see, the thing is if if you don't understand the Lord's longing here and you and you step into the book of revelation without a bridle paradigm, and it's about working or just doing or just theology. If you step into the book of revelation, without that paradigm, you're stuck looking up at the book of Revelation being about the Antichrist and the end times.

00;20;56;04 - 00;20;57;22
Murray Dueck
And I'm much trouble, right? Right.

00;20;57;24 - 00;20;58;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Because.

00;20;58;23 - 00;21;22;22
Murray Dueck
Because you're supposed to be reading it through a hungry, hard experience of encounter that continually transforms you into a bridle intimacy, desire for God where, you know, again, this Hebrew, this, this, you know, word. Lord, Lord would heal the sick and raise the dead. Depart from me. I never knew you. You know, Adam knew Eve. And but this journey needs to continue.

00;21;22;22 - 00;21;41;28
Murray Dueck
And this is where contemporary a prayer comes in. This is where a time alone with God comes in. This is where retreat comes in. This is where, you know, all of that happens. And so our, you know, as we started out and the reason I mentioned this is, you know, you know, Karis Meadow talks, right? I still am charismatic and experienced, I think.

00;21;41;28 - 00;22;01;29
Murray Dueck
I would think so. but my I think my, you know, one of the desert fathers said I can't remember who it is. Don't never let the outer life dominate the inner life, right. Even prayer, like if you go to church in the spirit of God's moving in your heart, just say the Jesus prayer and pay attention to the flow of the spirit in you.

00;22;02;06 - 00;22;03;27
Murray Dueck
Ignore the service.

00;22;04;00 - 00;22;04;16
Joshua Hoffert
Let me put it.

00;22;04;16 - 00;22;05;24
Murray Dueck
Some more important.

00;22;06;02 - 00;22;17;04
Joshua Hoffert
and put it something like I was watching a, long form interview recently, and, it's interesting. How were the way that we're going with the conversation, but,

00;22;17;07 - 00;22;18;25
Murray Dueck
We didn't go, like, we prepped it, guys.

00;22;19;02 - 00;22;35;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, we'll we'll get there, too. I was watching a long form conversation. Yeah. And it was, the American gospel. Guys, I don't know if you've watched any of that stuff, but they're reformed. Reformed salvation is basically. And they were sitting down. They sat down with Michael Brown and Sam Storms talking.

00;22;35;14 - 00;22;35;22
Murray Dueck
Trying to.

00;22;35;26 - 00;23;07;25
Joshua Hoffert
Trying to have a conversation and ironing things out and and which was, you know, it was interesting. I watched it on and off and then couldn't take it anymore because it's just anyway. And I, I realized that, when, when we talk about being charismatic, especially as it is kind of coming from this bridal paradigm idea, when we talk about being charismatic and why I'm why we're taking a few minutes just to define that a little more, I.

00;23;08;01 - 00;23;10;21
Murray Dueck
I think it's important. I really it is, it is.

00;23;10;21 - 00;23;35;09
Joshua Hoffert
And we hear like like one of the things that happened is the American gospel guys kept referencing, you know, well, Benny Hinn does these weird things or, or Sid Roth has these crazy people on his, on his shows, or Kat Kerr is a, you know, crazy person, right? And so they look at they look at that and they go, that is what it means to be charismatic.

00;23;35;09 - 00;23;45;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's what that's what these reform sensation, this guys, that's what it means to be charismatic. But the thing is, Marie and I look at that and go, that has nothing to do with what it means for me to be charismatic.

00;23;45;23 - 00;23;46;08
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;23;46;08 - 00;23;47;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right to and and.

00;23;47;20 - 00;23;49;06
Murray Dueck
Again, I really.

00;23;49;06 - 00;24;13;10
Joshua Hoffert
Not denouncing any of those. I'm not denouncing any of those people on either side of that conversation. I'm not trying to say that it was an observation going, oh yeah, when when I talk about coming from a charismatic background and and calling myself, you know, quote unquote charismatic today, I really don't mean it in the sense of I'm involved with the movement and this is who I am.

00;24;13;10 - 00;24;37;21
Joshua Hoffert
I mean, I had an experience that transformed my life, and I and some of the language we use may be kind of overlapping with it's like the, the, the eastern mystics in the Orthodox, in the Western mystics in the Catholic have overlapping language and people in eastern mysticism, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever. There's overlapping language with the Christian mystics too, but it doesn't mean the same thing.

00;24;37;28 - 00;24;38;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;24;38;15 - 00;25;04;25
Joshua Hoffert
So when I say encounter, I don't mean that I'm having visionary experiences. It means that I've found a great meaning in the language of the Christian mystics. When they talk about holding the vision of God in the heart in a in a substantial way, because he's impressed himself upon me, that makes way more sense to me than I had a visionary experience, or I had some kind of, esoteric, crazy visit to heaven or something like that.

00;25;04;27 - 00;25;20;28
Joshua Hoffert
And so, you know, some people got always charismatic and they're talking about an encounter. So they're talking about being taken to heaven and seeing things, you know, like all these other weird, charismatic people say. And I'm saying, well, no, we've found a lot more solidarity in the mystical literature in Christianity about the vision of God being impressed on the heart.

00;25;21;03 - 00;25;32;00
Joshua Hoffert
That makes a radical transformation and warms us to the sweetness and pleasure of the mystery of God. That's that's the language that we would really resonate with and not the other stuff. And so.

00;25;32;00 - 00;25;32;20
Murray Dueck
Slightly.

00;25;32;22 - 00;25;36;15
Joshua Hoffert
So that's where it's like teasing out, what do we actually mean by that?

00;25;36;16 - 00;25;37;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it's a big and.

00;25;37;16 - 00;25;40;18
Joshua Hoffert
It kind of fits within the context of what we're talking about.

00;25;40;21 - 00;26;15;22
Murray Dueck
And it's interesting because again, in for my experience, I mean, I guess everybody we you know, your experience might be different, but but my experience, you know, being a charismatic, you know, for almost 30 years and this I'm talking about, you know, in the charismatic, you know, church, I've been through like eight church splits. So I, I've seen like, oh, you know, all kinds of stuff where people have had experience, but at the same time, you know, split churches and pastors become gay, you know, all kinds of stuff, you know, and it's like.

00;26;15;25 - 00;26;21;14
Joshua Hoffert
Murray's kind of you've run the gamut in terms of what you've seen. I know a lot of the stories, and it's like, I mean.

00;26;21;15 - 00;26;44;13
Murray Dueck
And it's like, well, how can you? I mean, you know, my last one of the last things that happened for two years, I think 50% of my time, two and a half years, almost three, was conflict resolution. And these are with people that here could hear the Lord like you wouldn't believe. And and here they're handing me books in the Jezebel spirit about someone else they've been working with for ten years, like so.

00;26;44;15 - 00;27;01;17
Murray Dueck
And they're flopping on the ground, and I don't want to, you know, I don't want to come against that because I think God does some good therapeutic stuff there. But if you stay at a level of of experience and it doesn't increase your heart passion to become the bride, pure and spotless.

00;27;01;23 - 00;27;02;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;27;02;10 - 00;27;31;22
Murray Dueck
And those are two going together. You can get caught up in experience and never really become like Christ. What what what keeps you, your heart hungering and passionate for God. And I remember one of the desert father says said like, you know, it's think of it like this. yeah. A young man's going to engage, get engaged to this young woman, and he's just got engaged and he's walking through the most dangerous, stinky, filthy part of town.

00;27;31;25 - 00;27;53;19
Murray Dueck
He doesn't even see it. He's so in love that that he's not even aware of it. Right. And to keep your heart in a place of love like that, you know, you know, Paul would say in first Corinthians, you know, 314, you know, be zealous especially for the gift of prophecy, like you just, you know, be zealous.

00;27;53;19 - 00;28;15;17
Murray Dueck
And it's yeah, I mean, there's dark night of the soul seasons and we go in and out of that. I think every marriage does, you know, nobody stays in honeymoon all the time. But but the idea is, is to be pleasing to the spouse. I mean, again, even Jesus's word to the Church of Leo this year, I wish it were hot or cold, but you're lukewarm, you know, so I will spit you out of my mouth.

00;28;15;20 - 00;28;42;13
Murray Dueck
Return to your first love that you know. That's again the the Hebrew concept of the honeymoon suite, where that, which we talked about last week, you know, return to that and and so the question is, how do we how do we continually grow as, as people who want a passionate, intimate relationship with, with God in this paradigm that says, you know, ever more intimate, ever more intimate, right.

00;28;42;15 - 00;28;59;27
Murray Dueck
And give that away. How do how do we do that? And it has to move beyond just attending meetings and having having experiences that, that are, that, you know, I think experiments, experiences are supposed to be like road signs and it and.

00;28;59;27 - 00;29;03;22
Joshua Hoffert
It moves beyond it moves beyond simple study time as well.

00;29;03;25 - 00;29;18;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And and that would be the head part of it too. Like, you know, I but but like I experience it should be a sign on the road on a journey of becoming right. It that's what they should be.

00;29;18;04 - 00;29;34;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. That's right. It seems to me that people in in our contemporary society mistake. the the information of a thing with knowledge about that thing.

00;29;34;14 - 00;29;35;12
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;29;35;14 - 00;29;40;15
Joshua Hoffert
And that's and that's when Jesus says, and we're not throwing any into anyone under the bus with this.

00;29;40;18 - 00;29;46;17
Murray Dueck
We're just we're just kind of our own periods of the journey. When Jesus put it like, that's what you think. Yeah, that is what I think.

00;29;46;17 - 00;30;13;18
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah, there you go. When Jesus says, depart from me, I never knew you. The terminology he uses there is the Greek word conosco, not the Greek word gnosis. Conosco is direct knowledge through direct participation. It's not knowledge through information gathering. Yeah. And so when he says, I never knew you, he's saying I never, I never essentially this is what he said.

00;30;13;23 - 00;30;16;08
Joshua Hoffert
I never experienced you.

00;30;16;10 - 00;30;18;25
Murray Dueck
That's what you say. What a great way to put that.

00;30;18;28 - 00;30;38;17
Joshua Hoffert
And he's not saying I said, this is what I, this is what. And I, contemporary Christianity, there's a lot of circles who think, well, as long as I know more and more about him, I know him. Well, that's not the case. So here, this is going to segway us into what we wanted to talk about today. yesterday I live I live in Eastern Canada.

00;30;38;19 - 00;30;56;24
Joshua Hoffert
Murray lives in western Canada. Murray, you we had a, quite the, phenomenon yesterday, which was the solar eclipse, you know, and I don't know how many I that I don't know if you know anybody that was prophesying cataclysmic events, but, you know, I think.

00;30;56;24 - 00;31;00;15
Murray Dueck
That solar eclipse went over like seven towns called, like Nineveh.

00;31;00;18 - 00;31;18;07
Joshua Hoffert
So I saw, like, that's what people were saying. And it was supposed to be some. Anyway, I all I know it's sorry. Well, but in our say and this is where we also understand the charismatic, weird side of things, is that all of the prophecies that were about something happening have now turned into spiritual things have happened. All right.

00;31;18;07 - 00;31;22;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's that's kind of how we get people get out of, well, this is going to happen. This is going to happen.

00;31;22;22 - 00;31;24;00
Murray Dueck
That's a good point. I mean.

00;31;24;00 - 00;31;28;10
Joshua Hoffert
Spiritual things now happen and well, let me let me let me say.

00;31;28;10 - 00;31;31;01
Murray Dueck
This. Keep going. I interrupt you again.

00;31;31;01 - 00;31;39;07
Joshua Hoffert
I'm being a little bit I'm being a little bit facetious when I say that I'm I'm poking fun at it. Our own, our own, prophetic cesspool. Yeah.

00;31;39;07 - 00;31;41;27
Murray Dueck
So which we're a part of everybody in which.

00;31;41;27 - 00;31;42;21
Joshua Hoffert
We're, you know.

00;31;42;26 - 00;31;44;10
Murray Dueck
We're sitting on the edge of it if.

00;31;45;02 - 00;32;03;03
Joshua Hoffert
if Daniel can go, you know, we have sinned when it comes to Israel's complete, neglect of God, then we can say, yeah, it's our prophetic cesspool, too. so, so, so I like I kind of drag Marie into some of these conversations, right?

00;32;03;05 - 00;32;05;24
Murray Dueck
So, meaning it. I don't like direct confrontation.

00;32;05;25 - 00;32;10;24
Joshua Hoffert
So Marie had zero. I think you had. You guys had zero coverage of the solar. Yes. Right. It was not.

00;32;10;27 - 00;32;17;09
Murray Dueck
Nothing. I mean, we had a totally cloudy day, but it didn't even get shady. I mean, there is no evidence of anything.

00;32;17;11 - 00;32;17;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;32;17;19 - 00;32;21;10
Murray Dueck
So too bad. I wanted to see what the animals would do. I was like, wow, what's going to happen in.

00;32;21;10 - 00;32;25;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right. Well, we had our dog with us the whole time. And he was he didn't even pay attention to it.

00;32;25;23 - 00;32;27;15
Murray Dueck
Really unfortunate.

00;32;27;17 - 00;32;47;14
Joshua Hoffert
The the well who he was. He's a lab also. So you know, the labs just kind of go around happy go lucky. And as long as, as long as they have something to chase after, they're happy, which he did. So, so we got the kids together. they got out of school early and we went over to my mother in law's house, and, we're watching the eclipse.

00;32;47;18 - 00;33;07;27
Joshua Hoffert
Eclipse? From there. and we were right in the path. We had two minutes of direct. Direct. I, I have never seen anything like that. I really, honestly, it was one of the most it was probably the most, most, it was probably the craziest natural phenomenon I've ever seen.

00;33;08;02 - 00;33;08;23
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;33;08;25 - 00;33;09;18
Joshua Hoffert
It really.

00;33;09;21 - 00;33;11;29
Murray Dueck
To my knowledge, I can't even understand that. Right?

00;33;11;29 - 00;33;38;24
Joshua Hoffert
Because I've never seen anything about. Yeah, exactly. I've never seen anything like that. And, you know, pictures just don't. And, you know, the pictures you have seen people share on social media with the the black hole and the light emanating from it. The and it just the, the clarity of that was anyway. So we had we were in the path of 100% total blackout for two straight minutes.

00;33;38;26 - 00;33;56;10
Joshua Hoffert
Wow. And and it was just it was just quite the experience. So my point is, and I wanted to bring this analogy because I think it fits really well with where we're going is, you know, they say the whole time as it starts, it started it in our time, I think at 327 or 326 or something like that.

00;33;56;12 - 00;34;25;16
Joshua Hoffert
And, and Full Eclipse was an hour later at four. maybe it was 434, I think was the full eclipse. But, they say don't look at they get we all had glasses, all that stuff. Don't look at it because of the concentration of light that's beginning to happen. Does more damage to your retinas. Right. And so I happened to as we were driving and a whole lot of people were driving trying to get to better viewing places, because even just driving 15 minutes away increased the time frame of the eclipse by.

00;34;25;26 - 00;34;26;26
Joshua Hoffert
30s.

00;34;26;29 - 00;34;27;15
Murray Dueck
Oh, wow.

00;34;27;18 - 00;34;50;12
Joshua Hoffert
And so and driving about an hour away would have been, two whole, two whole more minutes of eclipse. so anyway, I happened to look out and look up and see the sun. What? Well, in the first ten minutes of the eclipse and my eyes were blinded, I could see that that, And actually, today I've been going by.

00;34;50;12 - 00;35;08;04
Joshua Hoffert
I feel kind of like they feel saw and, you know that I'm tired today. I wonder if that's because of that. I just glance for a second. Right. Wow. And I had to look away because the the immensity of the light and the piercing ness of light was just too much. I couldn't I couldn't look there. Right.

00;35;08;04 - 00;35;28;14
Joshua Hoffert
So then we have to put the eclipse glasses on when we get to the place we're at, right. We have to I'm gonna I'm going to use an obvious scriptural parallel. We had to look through a glass dimly, right, in order to see. But, yeah, in order to see the light. Because otherwise it would have totally blinded us.

00;35;28;17 - 00;36;05;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so we're watching it. I have pictures on my phone. I sent one to Murray of the of the moon, and I put the the glasses over the lens of the phone and took the pictures and so you could see the moon slowly, slowly covering the sun. And, and then you get to the point where finally full 100% eclipse happens, and all of a sudden it it's like it, it, you know, the light was getting darker and darker, but then it just happens, like instantly all of a sudden you're at probably, you know, 8:09 p.m. it feels like right, the dusk is settled and it's it's turning and you can see some of

00;36;05;08 - 00;36;26;17
Joshua Hoffert
the stars out actually. Wow. At 4:30 p.m.. Right. And so that I was on the phone with my mom showing her on the video too. And she was she saw the change in light happened. So all of a sudden and then as soon as a light dimmed, you could look up at the sun, right. And what you could see, I that's again, I've never seen anything like it before.

00;36;26;17 - 00;36;44;18
Joshua Hoffert
You see this large black hole right in the middle of the sun and some light shining out from it. But everything else has become dark. And so you've got a minute and a half from where we are, where you can look at that before all of a sudden moves, and then the light starts to pierce again. You can't look at it anymore.

00;36;44;18 - 00;36;46;29
Joshua Hoffert
So. Right. It was an incredible experience.

00;36;46;29 - 00;36;48;22
Murray Dueck
So could you look at it without your glasses.

00;36;48;27 - 00;36;51;27
Joshua Hoffert
You can look at for that minute half. You can look at it without your glasses.

00;36;51;27 - 00;36;52;29
Murray Dueck
Oh that would have been so.

00;36;53;01 - 00;37;13;08
Joshua Hoffert
So I want to I want to draw this parallel because this is, this is this would be something right up within the mystical literature. Right is when the with with naked eye you cannot look at the sun, but as soon as it's obscured, you can look at it. Right. You can only look at the light when you can only see part of it.

00;37;13;10 - 00;37;37;25
Joshua Hoffert
You can't look at the light when you can see the whole thing. and the only time you can look at it is when it's actually covered by something else. And then you can you can surmise what's behind it. Right? But you can't ever see what's behind it. So the only time you can actually look at the sun in a total eclipse is when it's covered by something else, and the only time you can look at it when it's happening is when you've put a shade on.

00;37;37;27 - 00;37;57;17
Joshua Hoffert
And you can so you can. The mediating effect of the shade makes it possible for you to see. Right. And so what we're talking about today, and you know, it's taken us so long to get there in talking about today is when we're looking at the bridle paradigm in Scripture and, and the way it kind of rushes forward to revelation.

00;37;57;17 - 00;38;22;01
Joshua Hoffert
And we talked about this. Revelation 21, the bride comes down. It's the it's the heavenly city in the in the Old Testament. You know, you had the you had Adam as the lover of God, and now you have a whole city full of people as the lovers of God. They're the bride, right? You got the individual uniqueness of a person, and then the corporate, the corporate city display, where now the bride of Christ is all the people that have been subsumed into him.

00;38;22;01 - 00;38;27;11
Joshua Hoffert
And this beautiful thing comes rushing forward throughout the Old Testament, in the New Testament. Yeah.

00;38;27;13 - 00;38;30;11
Murray Dueck
I mean, so Testament guys out there, right? I mean.

00;38;30;14 - 00;38;51;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right, we talked all about this exists there. It's it's all right there. And Jesus, Jesus, you know, it's one of the things we said last week is that it's like the the first century Jews, when it came to the kingdom promises, were expecting a warrior general who was going to overthrow, the occupying Roman force and then institute God's kingdom again.

00;38;51;08 - 00;39;02;11
Joshua Hoffert
And what they got was, a the a wedding paradigm, right? A god's coming for a bride. He's not coming for a military commander. And so and so this comes.

00;39;02;12 - 00;39;04;07
Murray Dueck
An important thought we need to come back to again.

00;39;04;07 - 00;39;40;18
Joshua Hoffert
Here it is. And it's all comes crashing into the the first 70 years of, the millennia. And culminates in, you know, everything's Jesus is essentially exonerated when the temple is destroyed, his greatest prophecy comes true. And so now we know what he said. Like that his followers are all looking at this, and we've talked all about this, you know, and and so so the question then becomes, what does it look like in practice for the church to think through the bridal paradigm?

00;39;40;18 - 00;40;04;06
Joshua Hoffert
Where do we find this now in its application? Yeah. And and it's it's actually quite interesting when you start looking at you've got the because the first, kind of the first iteration of of church writings that we have would be the, the we call them the, oh, the Apostolic Fathers, that's what they're called right there.

00;40;04;06 - 00;40;08;28
Joshua Hoffert
Now, you've got, Barnabas, you've got Ernest, you've got Ignatius Clement's.

00;40;09;00 - 00;40;09;14
Murray Dueck
Probably in.

00;40;09;14 - 00;40;11;07
Joshua Hoffert
There. Yeah, yeah. Clement is in there. Yeah.

00;40;11;10 - 00;40;11;29
Murray Dueck
Ignatius.

00;40;11;29 - 00;40;34;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and when they were they their letters are, by and large, very pastoral. They're dealing with pastoral issues at the, at the kind of in the vein of Paul. Right. They're writing to the Church of Philadelphia, the right of the church of Corinth. Clement writes two letters to Corinth, and they're addressing, very, practical pastoral concerns.

00;40;34;11 - 00;41;02;28
Joshua Hoffert
Typically. Ignatius, in one of his letters, we talked about this in the prophetic series. He talks about the the bringing a prophetic word to the church about unity and and submission to or obedience to the leadership. Right. And, so it's very pastoral and how they come across and it's not really so you don't really find the, the in that first age of, church leadership kind of any kind of robust appreciation for bridal language.

00;41;02;28 - 00;41;31;05
Joshua Hoffert
You just don't see it. They're actually the early church typically codified the this spiritual way of Christianity as the way of life or the way of death or the way of light and darkness. That's the language that they use. Typically you just don't find bridal language very often. And and then you get into, you know, Tertullian and origin and, and really you don't find it there either, because now you're starting to get into more of a Greek rhetorician style of teaching.

00;41;31;08 - 00;41;52;09
Joshua Hoffert
Because of the Greek influence and the philosophical influence upon the early Christians as they moved away from their Jewish roots. And so you don't you don't get bridal language, really, I think I think one of the first consistent bridal paradigms we see when it comes to the the early church literature is and Mary and I, I've talked about this is a Macarius a great and in his spiritual level.

00;41;52;12 - 00;41;54;09
Murray Dueck
Three 3343 yeah.

00;41;54;09 - 00;42;15;11
Joshua Hoffert
It's going to be right in there. Exactly. Yeah. So you're a few hundred years afterwards before you start seeing a kind of more robust, beyond just a kind of passing reference to bride and bridegroom kind of language, you know, almost a, almost a generic way of referring to it that happens in the.

00;42;15;15 - 00;42;36;06
Murray Dueck
You know, my, my sense of that would be just, you know, you'd have to really do some more exploration on this, and somebody who's a real theologian would have a better picture of this. Me. But but I, I wonder if that's because the church, I mean, for the most part of that was highly persecuted. And then you have, you know, Aaron coming along saying, you know, it's just a guy.

00;42;36;09 - 00;42;47;21
Murray Dueck
And I mean, you're dealing with these big heresy. I mean, you're working with Trinity, who is a Trinity, like you're really working on the nature of the Godhead until we get up to, to, you know, the Council of Nicaea. Right?

00;42;47;22 - 00;43;02;29
Joshua Hoffert
And then even then, you're still working out certain. Yeah. Well, the human will and a and a divine will or just one will or what is, you know, you still working out the ramifications of Nicaea were 200 years in the church working out their language. Their two.

00;43;03;03 - 00;43;19;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And and and so I think, you know, this paradigm has to build on top of that one is what I'm saying. Yes. I think that there's a progression where where this comes back after they've kind of figured some of this out or the Holy Spirit's like, hey, let's talk about this, okay? Now let's let's bring this back in here a little bit.

00;43;19;24 - 00;43;40;28
Joshua Hoffert
And the reason I, the reason I bring the eclipse analogy. Yeah. Yeah, for 100%. The reason I bring the eclipse analogy up is that it's very difficult to talk about these things. It really is. And you can even see Paul wrestling with it in his language right? When he says, oh, I've, I've encountered the one who dwells in unapproachable light, who no one can ever see.

00;43;41;00 - 00;43;48;08
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know, how do you you can never see him. And you, he's not he can't be known. He can't be tasted. He can't be touched every.

00;43;48;10 - 00;44;13;17
Murray Dueck
I really good on that. Where he says how does he say it. Oh I have to the quote where he says God is not somebody who can be seen, but he can let himself be seen if you. Yes. You know, so it's like you can't see them. However, if they're God anyway. So, but let's go back to that, if you don't mind teaching now, I'm going to cause some trouble.

00;44;13;17 - 00;44;31;17
Murray Dueck
You're usually the trouble causer. I'm going to, So you're teaching me how to do this? I just want to throw one thought about that. If you guys don't mind about the, eclipse. Because because, again, you know, there's a couple of things, you know, it's such a good parable. It's such a good, symbolism here.

00;44;32;11 - 00;44;46;16
Murray Dueck
there, there. You know, there was a I mean, let's just talk about it on one level between my experience of it, which was nothing. I mean, I'll have to read about it and watch it on videos because I didn't experience it. But look what Josh is. Experience. I'm sure you'll remember this till the day you die.

00;44;46;17 - 00;44;50;24
Joshua Hoffert
My kids, my kids will do it was it was incredible. We were all deeply moved.

00;44;50;26 - 00;44;57;06
Murray Dueck
So I, you know, and I, I get to read about it. I could, I could tell you all the stats about it. I could tell you how long it lasted, where it happened.

00;44;57;06 - 00;45;07;02
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah, you know why? My wife actually kept saying, I never thought it would be like that. Yeah, I did, I didn't know what I expected, but it was way it was way more than I expected.

00;45;07;05 - 00;45;24;13
Murray Dueck
So you, you have, you know, just as a comparison here, you have this lady I don't know who she was. She goes to see this monk and she's trying to impress the monk. And she says to him, I've been reading the writings of Saint Maximus and, you know, trying to go, hey, look what I'm learning. And the monk turns towards her and says, you've been reading Maximus.

00;45;24;15 - 00;45;50;26
Murray Dueck
I was in Will you Be Saved? at this point is I'm a I have some fear for you because you're just memorizing information rather than experiencing what he's talking about. So he. Josh experienced it while I'm learning about it by reading with my hand. And and it's not that reading with that is that. It's just that if you assume that's what real knowing is, yes, rather than that's leading you into something, right?

00;45;50;26 - 00;46;08;22
Murray Dueck
It's a sign up on your road of life leading you. Those are different things. Right. And, and and I'll ask one other question here. And Josh might have to bail me out. Here's the thing. I'd get in trouble. So okay, let's talk about the eclipse. Right from a from a bridle point of point in time. Point to dot.

00;46;08;22 - 00;46;11;17
Murray Dueck
What? That's tongues for bridle paradigm.

00;46;11;20 - 00;46;13;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's that's tongue speaking right there.

00;46;13;14 - 00;46;18;10
Murray Dueck
That's. Don't speak it. That's Mennonite low German right there. Yeah.

00;46;18;12 - 00;46;18;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;46;18;22 - 00;46;43;01
Murray Dueck
That's a it's called the dinner table. I was a kid to, to you know, to like. You know, we're talking book of revelation. Okay. So when you look at the common everybody not common to the the eclipse, are you are you thinking I wonder how many cities of, named Nineveh it went over. And what does this say about the end times?

00;46;43;04 - 00;46;48;25
Murray Dueck
Right? Or are you going, wow, I may experience some. Think about the magical. The great.

00;46;48;25 - 00;46;49;06
Joshua Hoffert
Point.

00;46;49;06 - 00;46;52;01
Murray Dueck
Mysterious nature of God.

00;46;52;03 - 00;46;52;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;46;52;28 - 00;47;13;13
Murray Dueck
Which one of those is living out a bridal Paradise? Yeah, right. Because I bet you how you're doing. That's how you read in the book of revelation. Yeah. Right there. Yeah, right. And one is drawing you into intimacy, and one is wanting to give you knowledge of what to do in your own flesh in regards, you know, up the apocalypse or, you know.

00;47;13;16 - 00;47;16;27
Joshua Hoffert
The beauty of the sign is actually unimportant, then.

00;47;17;00 - 00;47;18;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah, exactly. Right. Right.

00;47;19;00 - 00;47;38;20
Joshua Hoffert
As opposed to how it evokes this, this like, oh my goodness. Creation as a reflection of the creator is incredible, right? And it evokes a sense of wonder and on delight and mystery and majesty as opposed to, okay, now we can, now we can get past the actual sign and see what it means.

00;47;38;23 - 00;47;48;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And guys, what what is prayer supposed to do? Like Joshua's experience of the eclipse compared to my experience of eclipse, right.

00;47;48;15 - 00;47;49;11
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;47;49;14 - 00;48;06;28
Murray Dueck
It's and again, like you read the book of revelation and we haven't flipped it open. You know, we're quoting it, but, you know, the whole thing builds up to this wonderful wedding, right? Blessed are those invited to the wedding supper of the lamb and then we have this wonderful imagery in the end of the you know, the book ends.

00;48;07;02 - 00;48;28;16
Murray Dueck
If you go to a movie, you know, all builds do to a moment right at the right at the end, and the book of Revelation is doing that. Where is it? Where does this go? Well, it goes to this union between God and man and marriage is the symbol. It's this a symbol. It's symbolic language. But it means something, you know, something passionate, something intimate, something.

00;48;28;18 - 00;48;35;11
Murray Dueck
And, and it just important how you read it and and here.

00;48;35;13 - 00;48;53;29
Joshua Hoffert
Let me do that. I mean, as you're saying that, let me do this. So here's here's a great quote from the curious, using bridal language that describes what we're talking about in the best way he can. He's, you know, like, I think, Mary, you said before we were going to go live, what we're trying to talk about is like looking through a keyhole at the sun.

00;48;54;01 - 00;48;54;24
Murray Dueck
Yes. You know.

00;48;54;29 - 00;48;56;05
Joshua Hoffert
Brilliant. And you're just going.

00;48;56;05 - 00;48;58;06
Murray Dueck
Not saying that I'm brilliant, but that example is really.

00;48;58;08 - 00;49;15;12
Joshua Hoffert
That was a great example. It's like. It's like what? What? And this is what? This is what we find in I think you can see I think, you can see it as far back as, Isaiah in Isaiah six when he's got this magnificent vision of God on his throne. That's full of light, but he never describes what God looks like.

00;49;15;14 - 00;49;56;03
Joshua Hoffert
You've got Paul and how he approaches these things. So we can go back to, biblical language because, but what we'll get here. So this is what Macarius says, right? Macarius fourth century. As Marie said, Macarius was born in 300 and lived till 391. So he wrote this somewhere in there period. He said, A man goes into bow the knee, and his heart is filled with a divine power, and his soul rejoices with the Lord as the bride, with her bridegroom, the inward man is snatched away to yet further devotion into the unfathomable depth of that world, and much sweetness in so much that his whole mind is estranged, being raised off and carried

00;49;56;03 - 00;50;02;06
Joshua Hoffert
off, higher, so that for that time there's a cloud of oblivion upon the thoughts of earthly wisdom.

00;50;02;08 - 00;50;02;25
Murray Dueck
Oh.

00;50;02;28 - 00;50;25;20
Joshua Hoffert
Thoughts are filled with divine and heavenly things, things infinite and incomprehensible, certain wonderful things which are impossible to be uttered. So Macarius is point the in this bridal paradigm. Bride and bridegroom. Right. We've seen this kind of broad, sweeping narrative of God coming for a bride. Now we see it in the mystical literature localized to my particular experience.

00;50;25;22 - 00;50;26;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right.

00;50;26;14 - 00;50;47;18
Joshua Hoffert
And so we're thinking of it now as bride, bridegroom, me and God. Him coming to me. And what happens in that moment? I'm snatched away and love is inspired. And I see things and hear things and know things that I actually can't even talk about because I'm seeing them through the keyhole. Because I'm seeing the sun. But but there's a moon standing in the way, you know.

00;50;47;20 - 00;50;48;13
Murray Dueck
Exactly right.

00;50;48;13 - 00;51;07;28
Joshua Hoffert
I could see I can only look because there's something standing in the way. Right. So he's talking about this. It's incomprehensible, yet it's revealed itself to me. But I don't know how to talk about it. And the only language I can come with is that it's like I'm a bride and he's wedded himself to me. And now my devotion and passion is increased.

00;51;08;01 - 00;51;12;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So this is what this is what Jesus is saying. This is how he's describing it.

00;51;12;06 - 00;51;25;00
Murray Dueck
If you don't mind, Josh, maybe read that quote of Paul where you said, if I if I'm out of my mind, it's, it's yeah, but if I'm right mind it's for you. And then the thing about love and then read Max's maxim, missus quote on. Yeah.

00;51;25;00 - 00;51;25;10
Joshua Hoffert
We'll go.

00;51;25;15 - 00;51;27;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Cool. Eros.

00;51;27;12 - 00;51;27;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;51;28;01 - 00;51;30;21
Murray Dueck
Because this all fits right there. Really. Well, you know.

00;51;30;23 - 00;51;35;18
Joshua Hoffert
And, and we're, we're actually, you know, we've been talking for so long, we're already winding to a close.

00;51;35;25 - 00;51;37;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I know it might be a good spot.

00;51;37;11 - 00;51;59;06
Joshua Hoffert
That right. Yeah. We'll go we'll go there because we've got it. We've got a follow up. What we're going to talk about the experience of divine love, because it flows from the bridal paradigm. But, but, Paul. Well, let me get, let me say this first. Maybe, it's it's I'll just throw this out there because we'll talk about this more later in another episode, for sure.

00;51;59;09 - 00;52;20;11
Joshua Hoffert
It's not really until you get to like, think about this. I've got the verse up, so we'll get there. Think about this right. The the church in its infancy is fighting for its survival. Then it's fighting for its theology, and then it's fighting for its influence, and it's growing. Right. And you're taught that we're just covered the first thousand years.

00;52;20;13 - 00;52;40;15
Joshua Hoffert
And it's not until you get to about the 11th or 12th century that the bridal language really deepens and you get you get certain pockets of it, like with Macarius. But all of a sudden you get into guys like Simeon the New Theologian. You get a little bit later into Gregory Palamas in the Orthodox vein, you get into Bernard of Clairvaux in the Western vein.

00;52;40;17 - 00;52;41;24
Joshua Hoffert
And would you get.

00;52;41;26 - 00;52;46;25
Murray Dueck
A good point that Bernard of Clairvaux and Simeon would never have any idea of each other's existence?

00;52;46;29 - 00;52;47;29
Joshua Hoffert
They would they.

00;52;48;00 - 00;52;48;26
Murray Dueck
The same time.

00;52;48;26 - 00;52;50;00
Joshua Hoffert
Period, at the same time.

00;52;50;01 - 00;52;50;23
Murray Dueck
Same thing.

00;52;50;26 - 00;53;00;17
Joshua Hoffert
Talking about the same stuff. That's right. So so we see this kind of progression when it comes to bridal language. But it's not that it's not there. That's something.

00;53;00;20 - 00;53;01;13
Murray Dueck
Exactly.

00;53;01;19 - 00;53;21;28
Joshua Hoffert
So verse. So verse, this is second Corinthians five verse 13 and 14. For if we're beside ourselves it is for God. If we're of sound mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ compels us, because we judged us, that if one died for all, then all died. so that's second Corinthians 513 and 14. and Murray's got a point about that.

00;53;21;28 - 00;53;29;00
Joshua Hoffert
But here I'll read this quote from, where is it from the curious. well, Murray, you.

00;53;29;01 - 00;53;31;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Hear this and then read the verse again.

00;53;31;05 - 00;53;58;03
Joshua Hoffert
Well, this quote from a let's see, I'm just gotta we've gotta condense it a little bit because it's quite long. So I'll just read the first little bit. theologians call the divine sometimes. And this is where we're going to get into trouble and erotic force, sometimes love, sometimes that which is intensely longed for and loved. Consequently, as an erotic force and as love, the divine itself is subject to movement.

00;53;58;05 - 00;54;25;17
Joshua Hoffert
And as that which is intensely longed for and loved, it moves towards itself. Everything that is receptive of this force and love. To express this more clearly, the divine itself is subject to movement, since it produces an inward state of intense longing and love in those receptive to them, and it moves others, since by nature it attracts the desire of those who are drawn towards it.

00;54;25;19 - 00;54;28;08
Joshua Hoffert
And I think that's probably enough for that quote.

00;54;28;08 - 00;54;31;14
Murray Dueck
Right. And this is Maximus. I believe this is Maximus.

00;54;31;14 - 00;54;42;04
Joshua Hoffert
Maximus Confessor, seven six seventh century. Cool seventh century, I think he was six. I think he died in the six 80s or something like that.

00;54;42;06 - 00;55;03;21
Murray Dueck
So he's not using the word bridle, right? I mean, you guys erotic or Eros? You can see the word being used. That's right. And the church uses that a lot. Yeah. And but let's go back to that Bible verse and just use that as a lens. And so everybody just that might be kind of cool. So I'll throw my two bits as I could.

00;55;03;21 - 00;55;19;29
Murray Dueck
It's only fair because I'm putting Josh on the T here. That's not me. I'm just thinking that's not really fair. So when you see that first I wish I, you know, if we're out of our minds. Right. It's it's it's for God. But if we're in our right minds, it's for you. For love compels us. Something like that, right?

00;55;19;29 - 00;55;20;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. That's right. You got it.

00;55;22;04 - 00;55;39;18
Murray Dueck
so the word out of our minds, there is a word, where we get the word Stacy's. That's right. Where we get the word ecstasy from, right? Where it means out of your mind. Insane. You know, drunk with divine love would be a good way to put it. standing beside yourself, like, have it be in ecstasy.

00;55;39;25 - 00;56;06;14
Murray Dueck
Like you've forgotten about your body. Forgotten about where you are. You're just taken up, right? And, And, you know, you could think about. Think about what? Maximus was saying there about the experience of divine love in these moments. Right. And just how Paul's using that. He's just experiencing this encounter, and then he's talking about the love of God, the love of Christ, the love of people.

00;56;06;17 - 00;56;21;00
Murray Dueck
Divine love compels us. Well, if you're having this encounter of love and then you feel God's love for people like that, you know you're being compelled by this.

00;56;21;03 - 00;56;22;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;56;22;05 - 00;56;33;15
Murray Dueck
They're saying erotic force. You know, like we're we're talking big, heavy language. So we, you know, this, this, this love for the, you know, Song of Solomon love. You know, we want to put it that way.

00;56;33;18 - 00;56;42;04
Joshua Hoffert
And I think, I think the particular term is, maniacal or eros. I think that's what it is, right?

00;56;42;06 - 00;56;45;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Like the manic maniac.

00;56;45;04 - 00;57;06;23
Joshua Hoffert
Almost maniacal. Yeah. So erotic. Erotic. But the this is the translation of the English they, this particular translator has chosen the translation erotic force. But what it means is maniacal love. Like erotic. The erotic is from the word eros, which is a form of love in Greek and Greek. We know in the scriptures we have philia and agape.

00;57;06;25 - 00;57;14;22
Joshua Hoffert
And there's also a third form of love, which is eros, which is a, a it's an innocent, a a a love with intense passion and longing.

00;57;14;29 - 00;57;17;08
Murray Dueck
Yes. That's too much for bailing me out there.

00;57;17;11 - 00;57;42;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So. So when we talk about erotic force, we're not talking about, it's. You gotta. You've got to hear the language within the context of the culture. It's not talking about a lustful desire for pleasure. It's talking about the force that's within you. That compels you to love something and pursue that thing wholeheartedly. In a way, it's like First Corinthians 14 when it says, pursue, pursue, love.

00;57;42;28 - 00;57;49;18
Joshua Hoffert
It literally says the word pursue literally means to lust after love, pursue love.

00;57;49;20 - 00;57;50;10
Murray Dueck
Is that something.

00;57;50;18 - 00;58;17;26
Joshua Hoffert
earnestly desire spiritual gifts us. First Corinthians 14 one. Pursue love, earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy, but pursue love literally means lust after the experience of love. And so this language is even in Scripture. We just, you know, our English translations kind of, cover our, you know, it's it's almost like, like, the translation in English makes we all we all cover our ears because we're little kids and we can't hear it, right?

00;58;17;29 - 00;58;46;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. But then you start getting into some of the, some of the contemplative theologians like Maximus, who's a heavy hitter like this is one of the main church theologians in his day and age. We're not talking about secondary or tertiary options. We're talking about one of the main guys, and he's talking about the force of erotic love or, passionate love that compels you and forces you towards a thing.

00;58;46;05 - 00;59;01;26
Murray Dueck
And and again, I just want to read this out of the passion. I know it's it's not really a commentary. It's more of a translation of. I mean, some people would fight me on that, but, you know, he's really thinking bridle paradigm when he, he put this together. So I just love to see what he how he interprets it.

00;59;01;26 - 00;59;07;24
Murray Dueck
I'd like to know, second Corinthians 513 I believe.

00;59;07;26 - 00;59;19;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Second Corinthians 513. We can put the disclaimer out there that it's there's certain things and there's certain passages in the, in the passion that are phenomenally rendered, and there's certain passages that are butchered beyond belief.

00;59;19;19 - 00;59;20;04
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;59;20;05 - 00;59;21;01
Joshua Hoffert
And and so.

00;59;21;06 - 00;59;21;29
Murray Dueck
You say that.

00;59;22;00 - 00;59;23;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we'll just say it that way.

00;59;23;12 - 00;59;29;06
Murray Dueck
Like, if we're out of our minds in a blissful divine ecstasy, it is for God.

00;59;29;10 - 00;59;31;07
Joshua Hoffert
Which is the word, which is the word there.

00;59;31;10 - 00;59;54;03
Murray Dueck
Exactly. That's why I wanted to read it, because that is the word in the text. Everybody. Yeah, that's the word in Greek. Ecstasy. Ecstasy, something like that. If we're out of our minds in a blissful divine ecstasy, it is for God. But if we are in our right mind, it is for your benefit, for it's Christ's love that fuels our passion and motivates us, because we're absolutely convinced that he has given his life for all of it.

00;59;54;11 - 01;00;08;28
Murray Dueck
But see, there's a divine motivation there. He's talking about, hey, this this is this divine passion. It's motivating us that that's really cool. I just think that's really well rendered there.

01;00;09;00 - 01;00;13;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

01;00;13;23 - 01;00;15;21
Murray Dueck
We're down translations, everybody.

01;00;15;22 - 01;00;18;05
Joshua Hoffert
It is good to be a bunch of translations. Yeah that's right.

01;00;18;05 - 01;00;37;04
Murray Dueck
But so and everybody maybe to sum up because I think we're getting about an hour here and Joshua might have some more to say as well. But you know it's, it's important to. And why is this important? Okay. Let me just say why this is important to me. So, and again, if I've shared this before, please forgive me.

01;00;37;06 - 01;01;05;17
Murray Dueck
But, you know, in our you, our in our conservative culture, which I, you know, Christian culture where it's really about, You know, the old saying too much word, you dry up too much spirit, you blow up with both, you grow up. Right. And and I think that's good. But, you know, it's it's it's interesting where when you're starting to walk with the Lord at, you know, we have this experience of first love.

01;01;05;17 - 01;01;24;07
Murray Dueck
We really do. And it's like, you just want to read your Bible all the time. You want to be with God and you want to pray and and suddenly, like, where did it go? And and now the charismatic experience says, why did we become charismatics? It's because that's where it went. It's over there. Let's go do that. Right.

01;01;24;10 - 01;01;45;25
Murray Dueck
So and then after a while that can even die. And what we're trying to hit here is, is kind of a Western way of doing life, which is really rationalism, you know, which is you know. Which is trying to deduce it all out of our right brain and even our charismatic experience. And what do I mean by that?

01;01;45;25 - 01;02;06;07
Murray Dueck
So, so in our Western culture, we really want knowledge. So if I have a doctorate degree, you know, often I feel closer to God than if I have a master's degree. And if I want a pastor of a church, you better have more than a bachelor's degree. Ed, because I want knowledge, because I want to do it the right way.

01;02;06;12 - 01;02;31;22
Murray Dueck
And I want to get I want the right answer to know the right thing. So. And but, you know, really with the early church, you know, if you look at the birth of the church in acts ten, Peter doesn't get any of that stuff. He gets a a vision of a sheet with creepy animals in it, and it causes him have to have a relationship with Jesus to walk with him day by day and put together the puzzle in a in an intimate relationship.

01;02;31;22 - 01;02;49;14
Murray Dueck
So let me just describe that, that process a little bit and why this call to pursue passionately is important because it's not just a head thing. And and I can use my charismatic gifting as a head saying, Lord, what do you want me to do with my life? What are you telling me today? Where should I be going?

01;02;49;14 - 01;03;12;25
Murray Dueck
What should I I mean, I'm still using my charismatic gifting to discern what to do. So I know if I've said this before, forgive me, but I think it's important here why this talk is important and then how to do it. It's coming up. We'll get there. But, my favorite place with Jesus walking. And I'm really troubled about something, and I'm like, oh, God, tell me what I'm supposed to do.

01;03;12;28 - 01;03;21;28
Murray Dueck
And he goes, what do you think of those bushes over there? Aren't those bushes? And I'm like, right, right, right. That can't be. God, erase the board, start again. Keep walking.

01;03;21;29 - 01;03;22;15
Joshua Hoffert
What is there.

01;03;22;22 - 01;03;23;24
Murray Dueck
Again?

01;03;23;26 - 01;03;26;16
Joshua Hoffert
What is it? What does the eclipse mean?

01;03;26;19 - 01;03;46;04
Murray Dueck
Yes. What does it mean? See, that's still rational left brain thinking. It means it's beautiful. This I mean, I mean, if you were looking at a beautiful sunset with somebody and you're looking at the sunset and your friends like, do you like that color pink, isn't that a nice hue? And look at that orange. How it plays off the hills.

01;03;46;04 - 01;04;06;21
Murray Dueck
Wouldn't you just go? Could you shut up and let me enjoy this? You know, just because, you know, sometimes God is just beautiful. Yeah, and we're taking into ecstasy. So, you know, I'm walking along the second time, I'm like, okay, just worship, forget about your problem. But it's a big problem. I start to think about my problem and I'm like, Lord, what's the right answer?

01;04;06;21 - 01;04;21;24
Murray Dueck
And he goes, what do you think of those trees over there? Aren't those nice trees? I'm like, what? And then I go in it. I could hear God speak to me. He just didn't want to talk about what I wanted to talk about. Right, right. And and sometimes when you're not hearing the Lord and we charismatics are like, oh, I'm not hearing God.

01;04;21;24 - 01;04;37;07
Murray Dueck
I have to make a really big decision. What am I supposed to do? I don't hear maybe he's mad at me. Maybe I'm on sin. Maybe I can't hear. You know what? because it's all based on. I've got to come up with the right answer to do the right thing. And you can check that. And how do you check it?

01;04;37;07 - 01;04;55;25
Murray Dueck
Is are you in a in a left brain rationalistic mode where you're trying to find the answer, which is how we read the book of revelation? How do you know you're doing that? Change the topic, ask God about anything. Ask you about your wife, your church, your kids, what's going on at work, and if he talks to you, you have no trouble hearing.

01;04;55;27 - 01;05;12;24
Murray Dueck
He just doesn't want to talk to you about what you want to talk about, right? That's right. Because we're looking for answers to do it the right way, where the Lord's looking for a loving relationship. Do you ever notice that when things are going wrong, you spend way more time with God? God loves that. Oh, they're spending more time with me, right?

01;05;12;25 - 01;05;32;08
Murray Dueck
Do you think maybe he doesn't answer just because it's like, I'm really enjoying this time with you, right? He'll answer eventually. He does. But maybe for him it's about intimacy. Because when you walk with God, this is how it kind of works. You walk with God, you reflect his glory, and when a problem comes, you spend more time with him and it's you spend more time with him.

01;05;32;08 - 01;05;58;17
Murray Dueck
You become more like him. And as you become more like him, you're thinking, change your attitudes, change your behavior, change and you become the answer you need for your new season by intimacy, not by a right answer. Yeah. So even as a charismatic, if we're taking our relationship of experience with God and we're still making it about answers and doing rather than about being and becoming, we're still not doing it right because it's about the journey of becoming.

01;05;58;18 - 01;06;20;08
Murray Dueck
That's right. Bridal intimacy, not just about finding an answer to do the right thing. Yeah. And and that's why this paradigm is really, really important. And at a and maybe I'll tell one more at one more little story if you don't mind. And then we'll quit or I'll let you respond. So an important thought. So I had this girl in my class and she says to me, you know, she can hear God pretty good.

01;06;20;08 - 01;06;36;20
Murray Dueck
She goes, hey, I'm thinking about, quit my job. You ask Lord about that, okay? And I'm like, okay, well. And he goes, yeah, that's all right. So I'm like, hey, yeah, that's fine. He goes, well, now I'm not going to quit my job. I'm going to ask for a raise because, yes, learn about that. Okay, okay. And then the next week I'm like, yeah, that's all right.

01;06;36;20 - 01;06;50;25
Murray Dueck
Next week. And she goes, I'm not going to ask for a raise. I'm thinking about just moving that okay. Lord, what do you think? Oh yeah. It's fine. And and then I come back the next week. You know, I'm not thinking about moving now. I'm thinking about getting a tenant, and. And I'm like. And Lord goes, yeah, that's fine.

01;06;50;26 - 01;07;10;00
Murray Dueck
And Lord says, you know what? She needs to quit sinking me off of me. I was the boss trying to find the right thing to do and start thinking to me as her, as her father or as her groom. I'm happy to just be with you and and let's just do life together, right? That's right. Right. And then the prophetic so often it's like, what's the right answer?

01;07;10;00 - 01;07;13;26
Murray Dueck
What should we be doing? Instead of who are we becoming?

01;07;13;28 - 01;07;14;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;07;14;08 - 01;07;36;17
Murray Dueck
And how are we being shaped. And the Lord doesn't care about those things as much as, you know, Saint Augustine love God to do what you want or like, oh, you know, or maybe Saul to Samuel, Samuel to Saul. Do whatever your hands fine to do, and God will be with you. Yeah. And and we make all of these things about what's the right thing and what should I be doing and how does it work?

01;07;36;17 - 01;07;56;04
Murray Dueck
And instead of, like, how do I love him more? And how do I let him love me more? And how do I transform by divine Eros? If we want to go back to this word, the become the bride and have his love flow out of me and and when you get again, how you're reading the book of revelation will tell you a whole bunch of where you're at on this.

01;07;56;05 - 01;07;57;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;07;57;04 - 01;07;59;17
Murray Dueck
Right. Are you looking at.

01;07;59;19 - 01;08;02;00
Joshua Hoffert
Or how you responded to these clips?

01;08;02;02 - 01;08;18;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah, exactly how you responded to the eclipse. And and that's why this topic is important. And and because we don't realize we have a set of paradigms of Western culture based on. Did you think we learned all our schooling elementary through high school, through college to think like this?

01;08;18;22 - 01;08;19;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;08;19;25 - 01;08;20;12
Murray Dueck
But,

01;08;20;14 - 01;08;20;26
Joshua Hoffert
And we're.

01;08;20;26 - 01;08;29;20
Murray Dueck
Unlearned. The Lord wants you to think out of your out of this relationship from your inner man, not just out of your head. Yeah. So that's right. There you go.

01;08;29;22 - 01;08;38;02
Joshua Hoffert
And and that's and that's what. Well, that's what we're learning and that's what we're talking about. And and we've got more to say about this. yeah.

01;08;38;03 - 01;08;40;21
Murray Dueck
But that set up I think the Desert Fathers. Well yeah.

01;08;40;21 - 01;08;41;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So we're.

01;08;41;08 - 01;08;42;19
Murray Dueck
We're going to go and that's.

01;08;42;19 - 01;08;48;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right. We've got a, we've got a at least 1 or 2 more episodes that we're going to.

01;08;48;23 - 01;08;50;00
Murray Dueck
I just got bit by a sheep.

01;08;50;05 - 01;08;51;19
Joshua Hoffert
Oh Mary just got bit.

01;08;51;19 - 01;08;54;27
Murray Dueck
Which is why don't we we're going to happen when people hear what I just said.

01;08;54;29 - 01;09;00;02
Joshua Hoffert
What a perfect way to end the episode. On Murray's pain and suffering.

01;09;00;04 - 01;09;00;19
Murray Dueck
That's right.

01;09;00;25 - 01;09;09;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah yeah yeah that's right. That's means now he's going to now he's going to go and Murray's going to go talk to Jesus because he had a pain and suffering moment.

01;09;09;26 - 01;09;10;09
Murray Dueck
That's right.

01;09;10;09 - 01;09;11;18
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah. Yeah. That's right.

01;09;11;24 - 01;09;24;27
Murray Dueck
But I heard one pastor say that when the, when people his congregation gets mad at him, he calls it sheep bites. Oh, maybe after what I just said, I'm going to get some sheep. There you go. Oh, no. I'm interpreting for you right away.

01;09;24;29 - 01;09;25;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. That's right.

01;09;26;02 - 01;09;27;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I just did it right there.

01;09;27;23 - 01;09;41;11
Joshua Hoffert
So, everybody, thanks for tuning in. And, we've got more to come. And we hope that these conversations have blessed your walking and richly. And so, we're just so thankful for each one of our listeners. So.

01;09;41;13 - 01;09;42;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;09;42;23 - 01;09;45;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Till next time. God bless.

01;09;45;22 - 01;09;54;02
Murray Dueck
Okay. Bye.

01;09;54;04 - 01;09;54;17
Murray Dueck
You.