Re-thinking theology, prophecy, and 5-fold ministry: an interview with Josh Lewis of the Remnant Radio Part 1

We at Voices from the Desert are excited to welcome Josh Lewis of The Remnant Radio for an in-depth conversation about theology, prophecy, and how we get 5-fold ministry completely wrong. Join Josh, Josh and Murray as they dive into Josh Lewis' story, why he started The Remnant Radio, and the new church plant King's Fellowship Church in Ada, Oklahoma.

For more about King's Fellowship Church, visit: https://kingsfellowshipchurch.com/

For more about The Remnant Radio, visit: https://theremnantradio.com/

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

00;00;15;00 - 00;00;19;18
Murray Dueck
You.

00;00;19;20 - 00;00;38;09
Murray Dueck
So, I mean, just listening to, you know, coming from that, carrying that background out here in this church now and even around the radio as you're talking about it, I mean, you're basically starting a podcast, pulling up the fence and then talking about what's true. That's that's pretty risky, really. I mean, from where we're rifling through it.

00;00;38;11 - 00;00;46;05
Murray Dueck
But to get to that point is what happens. You this is, you know, not all your friends or leaders or mentors that, you know.

00;00;46;09 - 00;00;59;09
Josh Lewis
They still don't know.

00;00;59;12 - 00;01;09;22
Joshua Hoffert
You. Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of voices from the Desert Desert.

00;01;09;25 - 00;01;10;24
Murray Dueck


00;01;10;26 - 00;01;14;08
Joshua Hoffert
This is the coyote. Time for our guest that we have on here. We.

00;01;14;10 - 00;01;17;12
Murray Dueck
Oh, you could do if you're a big shot. If you if you wanted to.

00;01;17;17 - 00;01;18;08
Joshua Hoffert
Or whatever you heard.

00;01;18;08 - 00;01;20;04
Murray Dueck
You guys are a desert.

00;01;20;06 - 00;01;26;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah. I I've got nothing, guys. So sorry. Yeah.

00;01;26;20 - 00;01;28;20
Murray Dueck
We should we should have. I mean.

00;01;28;22 - 00;01;30;20
Joshua Hoffert
I cheered me on the Chewbacca. We should have.

00;01;30;26 - 00;01;31;20
Josh Lewis
Practiced before I came.

00;01;31;20 - 00;01;33;07
Joshua Hoffert
On air. It. Yeah, yeah. Big Star.

00;01;33;07 - 00;01;33;24
Josh Lewis
Wars fan.

00;01;33;24 - 00;01;39;20
Joshua Hoffert
But. Yes. Or you could do it. Doesn't have to be Chewbacca. Could be, one of the.

00;01;39;22 - 00;01;42;16
Murray Dueck
Well, we want to try and sand the sand people.

00;01;42;16 - 00;02;03;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, because it's a desert, you know, voices from the desert. And there's the sand people. And anyway, so it's a running gag, I guess. So, yeah. as you guys all can tell, we have a guest with us. I'm Joshua Halford, I'm here with my good friend Murray Duke, and our whole goal in, pretty much everything we do is that we would help people engage.

00;02;03;23 - 00;02;23;16
Joshua Hoffert
a a lifestyle of encountering or knowing the father's heart and knowing, and, I think I characterize that by equipping people to experience God. Murray does some other things with animals and all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Takes care of it, takes care of them. And, I'm, at Murray's practically orthodox at this point, too.

00;02;23;16 - 00;02;45;05
Joshua Hoffert
And we have this, deep fondness for patristic theology, church history, the contemplative rhythms, the mystics. And we like hearing from people and their journey, through the desert of the heart. That's kind of the voices of the desert is those people that have been through the desert journey, the interior way, and come back with something to say.

00;02;45;08 - 00;03;12;29
Joshua Hoffert
And so we have a friend of the podcast on today, and, I got to know this particular friend, I think we met in 2018 or 2019 and were introduced by some pastor friends and, have spent some time together. And, I did some stuff with his podcast, and now he's doing some stuff with our podcast. And this is Josh Lewis of The Remnant Radio.

00;03;12;29 - 00;03;15;09
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, so, Josh, why don't you say, hey.

00;03;15;11 - 00;03;16;02
Josh Lewis
Hey,

00;03;16;05 - 00;03;17;00
Joshua Hoffert
There you go.

00;03;17;03 - 00;03;45;02
Josh Lewis
Yeah. I love, love all the stuff you've published, Josh. blogs that you've done, books that you've got, and I've got them behind me. I've read through the nice. They've been. They've been great in my my devotion. But then also, just having you as a friend and a resource to to point me in the direction of, a good patristic desert father like material, that I found has given a historic, credibility to experiences I could not make sense of in my own life.

00;03;45;02 - 00;03;52;05
Josh Lewis
So, it's been it's been helpful to read those stories and go. Oh, so I'm not crazy. That's not okay. Murray.

00;03;52;05 - 00;03;53;02
Joshua Hoffert
And I to. Yeah.

00;03;53;03 - 00;03;55;07
Josh Lewis
Very, very appreciative of your work in that. Josh.

00;03;55;07 - 00;04;03;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Awesome. Thanks so much, Josh. And and you've recently, you've just this has been the last year you planted a church, right?

00;04;03;16 - 00;04;04;01
Josh Lewis
That's right.

00;04;04;01 - 00;04;16;13
Joshua Hoffert
And, yeah, I moved out of Texas, and you left the great state. So how's that? How does a it's not so much how does planting a church like what was leaving Texas like.

00;04;16;16 - 00;04;40;10
Josh Lewis
Sure. Well, I lived in the metroplex, Dallas Fort Worth metroplex, you know, millions of people that live there. and we moved to Ada, Oklahoma, a town of, 35,000, if you count all of the surrounding cities, and towns that come in to buy groceries, the actual city limits, I think it's like 18,000. so. Right. very small in comparison.

00;04;40;24 - 00;05;05;12
Josh Lewis
we very much enjoyed it. Wanted that we lived in charismatic Mecca. So I don't want to pretend to make myself sound more important than I actually am. But, being in Dallas Fort Worth, we get recognized a lot because it is charismatic. Mecca. Sure. you know, you've got all of the big charismatic churches are there, and, you know, we'd go grab a coffee, go work out my wife and I'd go on a date, something like that, and we get recognized everywhere we went.

00;05;05;20 - 00;05;31;03
Josh Lewis
And I saw loved the attention. I just I loved it, I loved the praise of man. And I recognized it. I was like, oh, man, I gotta murder this thing. So, we thought, hey, why not, like, live out some of the values that we say we believe and care for the people that are in front of us and, and just go find a small town where we could raise our kids and never build a megachurch and just care for the people that are in front of us to the best of our ability.

00;05;31;06 - 00;05;42;12
Josh Lewis
And, long story short, we found ourselves in Ada, Oklahoma. So, we very much like to hear. Yeah, we love it. I would never change that decision and hope to be buried here one day. Right. Wow.

00;05;42;15 - 00;05;45;06
Joshua Hoffert
Very nice. Oh, yeah. Wow. Wow.

00;05;45;27 - 00;05;51;13
Murray Dueck
so, did you know people there? Because, planning in a small town, you've got a lot less people to draw from. So.

00;05;51;15 - 00;06;09;19
Josh Lewis
That's right. We did. We did know people here that we had built a relationship with. so it can get, like, it can be a long story. I'll try to spare you from that. but, the long and short of it was, a family who was church list at the time was like, hey, would you consider planting with us?

00;06;09;22 - 00;06;27;03
Josh Lewis
Oh, nice. And and we said, yes. And they actually gathered the first three families that we started with. I bet we run, regularly, about 50 people, in our church now, we can have we have had, maybe I should say up to 75 ish. And and I also want to be clear for people who are listening, we have so many kids.

00;06;27;03 - 00;06;45;09
Josh Lewis
We have a Presbyterian lady that shows up with ten people. So my numbers are inflated. Okay. So, so I just I want to be very clear, like I'm. Yeah. yes. It's been a year. Yes. Church is growing. We have a great facility that we're able to use. we rent from another church on Sunday nights, and our church is extremely liturgical.

00;06;45;09 - 00;07;05;08
Josh Lewis
We we recite the Nicene Creed every week. We do prayers of confession. We do prayers of thanksgiving. We, you know, recite the Lord's Prayer. We take communion every week. we've got just kind of historic rhythms in our church now. Our, our order of service may look a little bit different than some churches. that are even in a high church tradition.

00;07;05;25 - 00;07;25;21
Josh Lewis
however, we, we try to make room for prophecy. We try to make room for the gifts of the spirit while also maintaining, kind of an orderly and decent church service. So, it's it's a it's an odd thing for even if you're in, like, a metroplex, I still think we would be kind of odd. but we're in Ada, Oklahoma.

00;07;25;21 - 00;07;26;21
Murray Dueck
To be honest.

00;07;26;24 - 00;07;28;18
Josh Lewis
We're we're very, very odd here.

00;07;28;20 - 00;07;28;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;07;29;06 - 00;07;38;28
Josh Lewis
Even more, maybe even more unusual. The Methodist church pastors. I'll sit down with them. They'll be like, wait, you do the whole liturgy? And I'm like, yeah. And they're like, we don't even do the whole liturgy. Like I stole it.

00;07;38;28 - 00;07;40;12
Joshua Hoffert
From you guys. What are you talking about?

00;07;41;14 - 00;07;42;14
Murray Dueck
That's brilliant.

00;07;42;17 - 00;07;48;01
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you were, yeah, if I remember right. You were attending an Anglican church, and that's right in Dallas before you left. Right. Is that.

00;07;48;01 - 00;07;48;21
Josh Lewis
That's right.

00;07;48;24 - 00;07;49;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;07;49;06 - 00;08;13;05
Josh Lewis
So, yeah, we I was, effectively raised in Pentecostal churches, pastored. And what I would call neo Pentecostal church is very like very cousin of Pentecostal. We were like post Trib. That was about it. That's the only thing that kept us from being Assemblies of God. Right. And, pastored in those kinds of environments and then took because of a, a ultimately a church discipline issue that wasn't being addressed.

00;08;13;20 - 00;08;48;08
Josh Lewis
wasn't being disciplined. you know, we resigned our position there, found ourselves, at the village church for two ish years. It was during Covid, so, like, it's just a giant blur. We weren't really faithful attenders there for almost a year because of Covid. we were kind of off and on there. Spent a whole year there after that, and then found ourselves in an Anglican church that was a little bit closer, but also, when you're in a space where you're questioning everything in the charismatic world, just finding a safe space to hear the gospel, right?

00;08;48;08 - 00;08;55;14
Josh Lewis
And like, being formed and fashioned by the liturgy, I think is just an important kind of operating software that we needed in our lives at that time.

00;08;55;14 - 00;08;58;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Was that father was that father owns church or.

00;08;58;17 - 00;09;11;26
Josh Lewis
No, we were going to All Saints Dallas. Okay. So, it's a the Anglican Mission, I believe, is the kind of sub denomination of the Anglican space we ran. So it was a charismatic Anglican church.

00;09;11;28 - 00;09;12;16
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;09;12;18 - 00;09;38;12
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I think we'll get we'll get to questioning all things charismatic eventually. Sure. And because that like, I mean, I think Murray and I have been there and are there and are kind of constantly, you know, reassessing. And there's anyway, we'll get there. What I, what I'm curious about is, you like you said you were raised in Pentecostal churches.

00;09;38;14 - 00;09;54;09
Joshua Hoffert
And now and just so everybody understands that, Josh, you started The Remnant radio eight years ago. That sounds right. Yeah. About eight years ago. And with, what, like two bits and a penny or something.

00;09;54;11 - 00;10;09;06
Josh Lewis
Correct? Yeah. We we, we had iPhones on selfie sticks because I couldn't afford, we couldn't afford tripods. So we had iPhones on a selfie stick, and we would cover the selfie stick and duct tape so we could slide it into a microphone stand that would hold the selfie stick.

00;10;09;09 - 00;10;25;17
Joshua Hoffert
Well, and, and and so it was 2019 that I was there. And we did some recording because it was before Covid and you did all the recording on an iPhone six even at that point. That's right. Right. And I'm pretty sure today you probably are not using phones to record any of your stuff.

00;10;25;19 - 00;10;27;28
Josh Lewis
No, we got we got real cameras now. Yeah.

00;10;28;00 - 00;10;32;28
Joshua Hoffert
So you've upgraded, right? Yeah. So, so out of the. Yeah.

00;10;33;01 - 00;10;56;06
Josh Lewis
What I was going to say like at the time where we were reaching like what, like maybe 100 people a week, like just hardly anybody. Which is, which is fine. I mean, reaching people praise God. And we didn't deserve to reach anybody. And at the time, we weren't really trying to build a media empire. What we were doing was I was bored, I was in a Pentecostal church, and I was like, hey, I feel like the and I'm not trying to say this as an insulting thing.

00;10;56;06 - 00;10;58;26
Josh Lewis
Like, I'm not I really I'm, I want to be humble, but like.

00;10;58;28 - 00;11;03;04
Joshua Hoffert
I want to hear the catalyst. What was the catalyst for you going? So this is good.

00;11;03;07 - 00;11;35;04
Josh Lewis
I felt like a big fish in a very small theological pond, and it was actually, a scary thing to make the willful choice to try to learn beyond my tradition, because to do that would, would, would expose me as the small minnow that I actually am. Right, right. and at the time, you know, I, I was viewed in my mid 20s as like the theology guy of our church and, and frankly, in different churches that I was in.

00;11;35;06 - 00;11;55;02
Josh Lewis
And so and that's a difficult place to be in. But but I didn't like to read either. I'm extremely dyslexic. I didn't plan on doing the pastoral theology thing. so I thought I could trick seminarians into educating me by having them on my podcast, so I wouldn't. I wouldn't have tried and I would get a free education.

00;11;55;04 - 00;12;12;00
Josh Lewis
I do this for YouTube views. Right? So, daily hang out with these guys, talk. I really enjoy talking and learning theology and asking questions. And and there was a lot of exposure. If you watched those early episodes of remnant, I get embarrassed a lot like, just, just because I just didn't know what I was talking about.

00;12;12;00 - 00;12;15;08
Josh Lewis
And I would ask questions that were revealed, my ignorance. And they're just you didn't.

00;12;15;08 - 00;12;16;10
Joshua Hoffert
Delete those episodes.

00;12;16;10 - 00;12;34;26
Josh Lewis
They're still now they still exist because because that's kind of the thing. Like, I want to be, as weird as this kind of maybe sounds like a Christian Joe Rogan and that, like, we're just unedited, raw. there are heretical things that might have been said that got pulled, but like, generally, you know, like the embarrassing.

00;12;34;26 - 00;12;55;25
Josh Lewis
Wow, Josh has no clue what he's talking about. Those things still exist on the internet. so, but but eventually some of those scholars, you know. Oh, so you didn't read the book and. Oh, okay. So, like, you don't know if you're talking about that. Enough moments of embarrassment caused me to read. And fortunately, with the development of AI and reading softwares and things like that, I've been able to distill that.

00;12;55;25 - 00;13;15;26
Josh Lewis
So probably since 2020, I found myself reading a book a week at times, depending on what season of life it was two books a week or more. so I find myself as an avid reader today. Oh, but but it was not something that was instilled in me early on, and it was something that I, I had to learn, I had to have a value system for before I could integrate it into my life.

00;13;15;28 - 00;13;36;08
Josh Lewis
So we found ourselves, yeah, interviewing scholars and then, pastors who had big names, like Matt Chandler, you know, I just had to listen to some Matt Chandler sermons to figure out who he was quoting. and go interview those people, and then shamelessly namedrop to get him on the podcast so that he would say.

00;13;36;11 - 00;13;37;28
Murray Dueck
Here you go. Oh, yeah.

00;13;38;00 - 00;13;53;15
Josh Lewis
There you go. There's telling people, I'm telling people how to start a podcast is how you do it. yeah. Scholars have got nothing better to do than talk to you. because they write books and they want to talk to people about the books that they're writing, that frankly, I don't want me heartless here. Most people will never read.

00;13;54;12 - 00;14;12;22
Josh Lewis
and, I as part of why we feel like remnant radio exists is we're helping to still very academic content to lay people and make this stuff accessible and, and and then those people do, in fact, mature to the point where they do purchase those books. They're like, oh, I do actually want the the source material on the raw data to glean from.

00;14;12;22 - 00;14;22;21
Josh Lewis
So it's interesting because it's been my journey right into the theology, and I've just taken a group of people with me and, yeah, it's just been it's been fun.

00;14;22;24 - 00;14;38;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I think when, when I started, following you guys and, hanging out with you a little bit, it was, you've probably tripled your audience numbers at least since then. If not, don't know what your current numbers are. I know it's over. Oh, sure.

00;14;38;08 - 00;14;39;21
Josh Lewis
Man, when you. When you were right.

00;14;39;21 - 00;14;42;22
Joshua Hoffert
I mean, 10,000, actually, I think was your numbers.

00;14;42;24 - 00;14;52;07
Josh Lewis
When you were doing the back to the father series with us, which was like 8 or 9 episodes. I think we had 30,000 people. We have 150 right now, 150,000.

00;14;52;07 - 00;14;53;23
Joshua Hoffert
Subscribers, more than.

00;14;53;25 - 00;15;02;29
Josh Lewis
About a million viewers a month. So our subscription base is, you know, you know, exponentially growing. But then our view count is way more than, than our subscription.

00;15;03;03 - 00;15;07;14
Joshua Hoffert
And then now that you have your you guys have your, training school, right?

00;15;07;16 - 00;15;08;19
Josh Lewis
Yeah. So we go, well.

00;15;08;27 - 00;15;11;22
Joshua Hoffert
So if you want to shoot yourself, your own PhD.

00;15;11;25 - 00;15;32;12
Josh Lewis
There you go. That's that's all I was going to say. and be careful with that. I don't call it. It is called awesome word in Spirit School of Ministry. But it is not a school. It is a online training program. It's like 14 weeks where people can learn about the gifts of the spirit, learn how they're practice in a kind of a contemplative, but also practice in safe environments where these things can be interactive.

00;15;32;12 - 00;15;56;05
Josh Lewis
So there's video material that they watch throughout the week. There's a book that they read, that partners with the the academic material that they watch online. Then they, do a live Q&A with the instructors, and then they break out into small groups and practice with like a qualified, gifted, small group leader. So we try to give all of the different learning mechanisms that people have, whether that's reading, whether that's audio, whether that's like an interaction.

00;15;56;05 - 00;16;13;23
Josh Lewis
They ask my questions, engage with the and then the practice hands on. So we try to just give multiple levels and layers of education that's really integrate the individual into the gifts. people if they want to learn about spiritual gifts, just watch our YouTube videos. It's free. but what we find is are people who watch the content, they're okay.

00;16;13;23 - 00;16;38;23
Josh Lewis
I get the education, but how do I how do I do it? How do I get from here to there? And then creating a space where that's, acceptable, is what we've done with the course. So, we try to be very clear with the, the school portion of it. I want people to know, all of the education that you could get from SEM can be found on a free YouTube video that I've already made, or in the book that cost you 20 bucks.

00;16;38;29 - 00;16;55;23
Josh Lewis
The course is actually rather expensive. And what you're paying for his our time and the time of like nine small group leaders. So like it. You know, I pay those guys. I'm trying to, you know, resource them well and, you know, marketing directors and those kinds of things. So, I want to be honest with,

00;16;55;26 - 00;16;56;15
Joshua Hoffert
With what?

00;16;56;16 - 00;16;57;16
Josh Lewis
With what we're selling. You know.

00;16;57;19 - 00;16;59;24
Joshua Hoffert
You're not you're not issuing PhDs or yourself.

00;16;59;26 - 00;17;25;10
Josh Lewis
I'm not issuing PhDs. Now, now, I do have an introduction to Christian theology. Course that's coming out. That is 40 lessons that will last eight weeks. That is, it's the Nicene Creed. It breaks down Nicaea. we believe in one God. We do monotheism. Father almighty. You talk about the fatherhood of God. We talk about, the sonship, eternally begotten of the father, eternally, the aspiration of the spirit as we walk through, all of that.

00;17;25;10 - 00;17;32;16
Josh Lewis
And that will be released in the fall. That's, that is going to be education. That is going to be theology. Yeah. But it'll be it'll be kind of a on the.

00;17;32;18 - 00;17;34;10
Joshua Hoffert
On the trajectory. That's really good.

00;17;34;10 - 00;17;35;02
Josh Lewis
We're working on it.

00;17;35;09 - 00;17;41;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah yeah yeah that's good. That's good. Murray, any thoughts so far?

00;17;41;20 - 00;18;02;29
Murray Dueck
well I got I got one question. I don't know if you want to do it now or not, but, but as you were talking about the the fish in the pond, you know, and that whole thing, I'm sure you can have, something James Dobson said back in the day. All focus in the family that there was this, sociologists that, decided to do this experiment and pull a sense out from around in elementary school.

00;18;03;01 - 00;18;10;10
Murray Dueck
And so thinking, was it that those kids would wander all over the neighborhood, but instead, what happened is that all the kids just huddled in the clustered.

00;18;10;10 - 00;18;10;14
Josh Lewis
Up.

00;18;10;21 - 00;18;35;01
Murray Dueck
Yard and and that, you know, just using that as kind of, you know, symbolic here that, that so many of us, our church culture and tradition becomes that sense. And, I think it passed. It's a scary thing. I mean, to pull it up, it's a really scary thing. So, I mean, just listening to, you know, coming from that charismatic background and how you're doing church now and even a remnant radio as we're talking about it.

00;18;35;10 - 00;18;53;15
Murray Dueck
I mean, you're basically started a podcast pulling up the fence and then talking about why I mean, that that's pretty risky. And and, I mean, from where we're at, quite brilliant. But to get to that point of like, hey, I'm going to do this because, you know, not all your friends or leaders or mentors are going to think this is a good idea.

00;18;53;15 - 00;19;03;28
Murray Dueck
Like, what's special about you, Josh? Yeah, yeah. There you go. What spurred on you to pull that fence up and then to talk about it publicly like, yeah, where does that go? Where did that come from?

00;19;05;20 - 00;19;29;22
Josh Lewis
so there's a there's a couple of things. You know, I was raised in a classical Pentecostal tradition and, maybe even before then, I'm a middle child, and I think I have probably, I probably fit the atypical middle child, like firstborn, like, checked all the boxes, you know, really good kid. Second born was just kind of like, couldn't check those boxes.

00;19;29;22 - 00;19;51;12
Josh Lewis
Kind of rebelled a little against the system. I'm dyslexic, so I wasn't like, I wasn't even checking the academic boxes. I just I couldn't keep up. so I think that that maybe that maybe that had some formative thing to me. Like, I've got a little bit of a rebel inside of me. In fact, if you listen to the music of remnant, the the Art of remnant, it's kind of like edgy punk, you know, like it it just kind of is.

00;19;51;12 - 00;20;05;06
Josh Lewis
And that's part of just kind of who I am. I'm kind of a contrarian. Like, I kind of like, okay, you know, Josh earlier is like, like I say that, I tell you always to say anything controversial. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go that way. So. So I'm a little a little edgy, a little controversial.

00;20;05;22 - 00;20;23;24
Josh Lewis
and that's just kind of part of who I am. And being raised in my tradition, I found that I learn better if I can push. If I can. You say something? I'm going to pretend like you're my opponent. So, like my instructors in my my unaccredited Bible school that I attended, I'm going to turn that feature off.

00;20;23;24 - 00;20;30;21
Josh Lewis
I'm sorry, guys, for, real Russians is on, on the apple. So if you like thumbs up, it's going to like, poop.

00;20;30;24 - 00;20;32;15
Murray Dueck
Okay, so,

00;20;32;18 - 00;20;52;09
Josh Lewis
So, I started treating my instructors like opponents. Like, I didn't believe anything that they said and would push every time I could to make sure, like, okay, is what they're standing on solid. And I just remember in Bible school, getting to the point where I'm like. I'm raised in a Pentecostal church my whole life going, I don't know if tithe is a thing.

00;20;52;09 - 00;21;11;02
Josh Lewis
Like, I just like I remember questioning something like tithe. I remember going, I think I'm complementary. And this I better keep this to myself, I will get I used to fight here, you know, like like I like having some. I think the Bible is saying this and my tradition is saying I'm wrong and that's okay. I'll just keep it to myself and right and just kind of bottled it up.

00;21;11;02 - 00;21;31;00
Josh Lewis
There was a there was a formative experience that happened to me where, I'm traveling with an evangelist, so finished Bible school, you know, went to, youth pastor for this guy. This guy decides he doesn't want to be a pastor anymore. He's gonna be an evangelist. So after a year of youth pastoring, I decided to travel with him and do evangelism for, you know, couple years.

00;21;31;02 - 00;21;52;03
Josh Lewis
So we're traveling, we go to this church. All the deacons are wearing red suits, very Pentecostal church, all wearing red suits. The the women, many of the women are dressed like high priestesses. Like like Levitical priest. They go up front and they dance with, flags, like, you know, when the preacher would say something good, the deacons in the red suits would kind of look up and down at each other.

00;21;52;03 - 00;22;10;21
Josh Lewis
Then they go, yeah, that was good. They would pick up a shofar and blow it. So instead of amens, they would blow. Shofar is to like a firm showbiz tradition. during the offering, the deacons went to the back of the room. The Ark of the covenant out, which had have been styrofoam or wood, the shrine laden with, like, gold leaf or whatever.

00;22;10;24 - 00;22;39;04
Josh Lewis
And then everyone in the church would dance down to the altar and, like, put their money in it. Right. And I just remember trying to justify everything that was happening. realizing this is culturally uncomfortable. However, I bet you anything he preached a sermon about Jesus being our banner. And that's why they're dancing with flags. I bet you anything he talked about the ark being worship and there was a sermon about, giving as part of our act of worship.

00;22;39;11 - 00;22;54;29
Josh Lewis
And I was like, I could get on board with that. I could see how they integrated that into their service. you know, Victoria shouts, shofar is, I don't know, like, I was just really trying to stretch. And I was like, man, it's so unfortunate that these people have created a culture probably rooted in some kind of tradition and sermon.

00;22;54;29 - 00;23;13;24
Josh Lewis
They have a reason for what they're doing. But if an unbeliever came in here, they'd go. These people are out of their minds. They go, these people are nuts. And I go right there. Yeah, yeah. I thought, oh crap, what am I doing that I'm I'm making adjustments for my tradition. I'm saying, oh, well, my, my tradition does this.

00;23;13;24 - 00;23;29;21
Josh Lewis
And we have a reason for why we speak in tongues when there's an unbeliever present. There's a reason why, you know, we do these kinds of things. We can justify our actions. But I was like, but, but what? An unbeliever come in and think we're crazy and out of our mind. I start thinking, well, maybe there are some cultural holes in my boat.

00;23;29;24 - 00;23;48;07
Josh Lewis
And I think that moment was kind of I've always had this contrary thing inside of me. I've always kind of pushed back to learn. Right? That's just been part of the way I've been wired. But then to be able to go, okay, maybe I should stop pointing the finger outward and start looking inward and really taking a strong inventory of of who I am and what I believe and why I believe what I believe.

00;23;48;09 - 00;24;01;19
Josh Lewis
Am I doing it just to get along with people or, you know, like, where's my loyalty? Is it with my tradition? Or is it with my God and trying to figure that out? was formative and then figuring out what hills matter, you know, like.

00;24;01;22 - 00;24;03;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah, you can actually die on. Right?

00;24;03;16 - 00;24;20;03
Josh Lewis
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. My, my my friend Gavin Orland has a book called like, What Hills to Die On. I think it's a great book. And, you know, you can actually hang out with your tradition and disagree on tithe and be fine. Like, you can go to the same church, pastor at the same church and disagree on Calvinism and Armenian ism, and you'll be okay.

00;24;20;05 - 00;24;27;11
Josh Lewis
You know, that's not a big deal. Just trying to figure out, okay, what am I doing and why am I doing it?

00;24;27;11 - 00;24;28;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

00;24;28;27 - 00;24;31;24
Josh Lewis
Those were those are formative questions. I think in that season.

00;24;31;26 - 00;24;50;08
Joshua Hoffert
I was just chatting with an older couple, who visited our church on Sunday, and they go to they're very Baptist in their background. And, and just to illustrate the point that and this in a way, this is kind of much more where the church in North America is at today than it was, say, 30 years ago.

00;24;50;08 - 00;25;19;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And, and the the lady said, you know, we we've had a Wesleyan pastor for the last year, but that's okay. He's okay. He's seem to be able to do okay as a Wesleyan pastor in our Baptist church. And, you know, it was like, this is this person is a not a, the kind of person who's going to be, but shift easily in their theological opinions.

00;25;19;22 - 00;25;28;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And but today they can go, well, he's Wesleyan and he's a pastor in our Baptist church, and it works. Right. And I don't know that you could have pulled that off 30 years ago.

00;25;28;05 - 00;25;30;20
Murray Dueck
There's no I don't know, there's a little more.

00;25;31;04 - 00;25;56;06
Joshua Hoffert
Grace, more cross-pollination. Yeah, for sure there is. For sure there is. In a way, it reminds me there's a, I was in a country which shall remain nameless. and which I've done a lot of work in over the years. Yeah. There's a particular area of that country that was heavily Catholic and, over against the, particular traditional religion of the country.

00;25;56;08 - 00;26;24;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it was like 80% Catholic or so. And in the last probably ten years, there's been a more and more of a push towards the traditional religion in the area. And the Catholics were pretty much the worst persecutors of the evangelical church in that, in that in that region. Area. Yeah, in that region. And you couldn't get along with the Catholics were so mad at the, the evangelicals because they kept looking at them as taking people away from what we're doing.

00;26;24;29 - 00;26;44;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah. There's you just and their families would divide over it, like, I've talked to people who they've been ostracized from their family because they left the Catholic Church to go to the Protestant church. And the charismatic church, whatever. People that had life changing encounters that they like. I remember one business guy I talked to, it had a life changing encounter at a charismatic church.

00;26;44;02 - 00;27;08;02
Joshua Hoffert
He'd raised, in the Catholic Church and, woke up essentially from the ground after being prophesied over for hours at a prophesied over, fell in the ground for hours, got up, and no longer struggle with alcoholism. Wow. Changes disposition to his wife changed everything about his life. This encounter, right? But he gets ostracized from his family for years because he left the Catholic Church to join this charismatic church.

00;27;08;05 - 00;27;27;08
Joshua Hoffert
And, but now that the traditional religion in this country has the controlling interests in the state, the state government and the Catholics no longer have the controlling interest in the state government. The Catholics are going, where are the evangelicals? Can we walk together?

00;27;27;10 - 00;27;27;18
Josh Lewis
Hey.

00;27;27;18 - 00;27;28;09
Joshua Hoffert
Work together.

00;27;28;09 - 00;27;29;05
Murray Dueck
You'll be out all right.

00;27;29;11 - 00;27;51;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So now now that they have to figure out how do we actually navigate. Yeah. The the opposition that we're getting there suddenly they're amenable and I and I couldn't help but looking at that and going, you know, you could kind of see the same movement in North America. Yeah. Yeah. Like the more pushback there's been culturally against Christianity, the less the dividing line matters as much.

00;27;51;15 - 00;28;15;01
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right. And in a way, you know, I, I the, the remnant radio has been kind of on the cusp of that, you guys. It's interesting when you look at like like it's funny to see podcasts like Chris Roseboro or whoever and, and they're like quoting you guys. And I'm like, that's Josh. Like I knew him when his audience was 10,000 people, right.

00;28;15;03 - 00;28;26;22
Joshua Hoffert
And and I know, I know a bit of your journey. Right. You're, you're you're not like I'm a theological expert, but they're going, well, the remnant radio guys said this. That's pretty cool like that. You guys in that sense of entered into the lexicon there.

00;28;26;29 - 00;28;30;24
Josh Lewis
I mean, when Chris Riseborough talks about as it's not usually it's never pauses.

00;28;31;00 - 00;28;33;25
Murray Dueck
I know it's not. I know that everybody knows. Right?

00;28;33;27 - 00;28;35;01
Joshua Hoffert
I know that it's not unheard of.

00;28;35;08 - 00;28;38;05
Josh Lewis
People are like, Who's Chris Roseboro? What do they say about Josh? Like, but.

00;28;38;05 - 00;28;46;29
Joshua Hoffert
My point is that they're quoting you as somehow represent tentative right of what the charismatic space would be. And you guys have tried to enter that space.

00;28;46;29 - 00;28;49;16
Josh Lewis
And we were in this is this movie I I'm I'm in.

00;28;49;16 - 00;28;50;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly.

00;28;50;12 - 00;28;57;14
Josh Lewis
I'm, I'm with my, my best friend Matthew Tarpley in the the American gospel three. Right. Like the charismatic thing.

00;28;57;14 - 00;29;08;28
Joshua Hoffert
So and that's crazy because you guys put yourself in that space and gone, look, we can have a theological, theologically robust conversation from a charismatic standpoint, right? Yeah.

00;29;08;28 - 00;29;12;24
Josh Lewis
I get to hang with Doug Wilson and be like, hey, yeah, I remember he asked me.

00;29;12;27 - 00;29;15;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, you guys did an episode with with, yeah. What was.

00;29;15;28 - 00;29;20;18
Josh Lewis
Your weapon? That's your weapon? And Doug Wilson on the Charismatic gifts. Very diverse.

00;29;20;21 - 00;29;23;13
Joshua Hoffert
Amenable between all of you guys. Yeah, I loved watching that. Yeah.

00;29;23;17 - 00;29;45;05
Josh Lewis
He goes, how can you believe that? the scriptures are sufficient and still believe in prophecy. And I said, what verses would you point to? Let's say that the scriptures are sufficient, you know, first Timothy or second Timothy 316 and okay, cool, cool, cool. was that taking place in a time when there was prophecy? Yes. Well, then it doesn't mean that for us today.

00;29;45;05 - 00;29;50;12
Josh Lewis
If it didn't mean that for them then and then Doug goes. That's a good point. You know, like.

00;29;50;12 - 00;29;52;21
Murray Dueck
Like I don't know, like like you're just like you're just.

00;29;52;21 - 00;30;08;27
Josh Lewis
Lucky, like to be able to and I don't I don't mean to be like whatever. Like I, I think Doug has got a decent theological head on his shoulders. Yeah. And to be able to point a theological, you know, suggestion over the fence, I'm not saying I compelled him or convinced him that it was true, but for him to go, oh, that's not something I've considered.

00;30;08;27 - 00;30;28;25
Josh Lewis
Like, that's that's a neat opportunity for an educated guy. Like I just I don't have any classical education. I, I think that this is a intentional the Lord saying, I'm going to use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, like I don't find myself to be a particularly, skilled or, you know, like I said, educated order.

00;30;29;18 - 00;30;48;25
Josh Lewis
but like, it's so pleased the father to use me, right. So I'm happy to be used. I'm thankful for that. But in the opportunities that he's put us in, I think has has kind of bore witness of all of that. we've got James White on the podcast, and we have Todd White on the podcast. Like, who on earth can say that they've interviewed Francis Chan?

00;30;49;02 - 00;31;07;24
Josh Lewis
And, you know, the guy who took over for R.C. Sproul, Steve Nichols. Right. Like who who has that kind of, you know, wide reaching, opportunities. And I just think it's the favor of the Lord. Like, there's no way I could have built this intentionally. There's just no way. yeah, that's not to say I can't steward it poorly or that, you know.

00;31;07;26 - 00;31;08;07
Joshua Hoffert
Sure.

00;31;08;07 - 00;31;14;14
Josh Lewis
Like I've said to people, we'll have some kind of crazy moral failure and blow it up. I'm just saying, up into this point, we can say, I think the Lord's built it.

00;31;14;17 - 00;31;16;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I was yeah, yeah.

00;31;16;20 - 00;31;25;10
Josh Lewis
Yeah, yeah, I think I'm hoping for a moral failure. For those who are watching, I just want you to know, like, don't trust me just because God has done great things, right? Like, that's not the way that works.

00;31;25;11 - 00;31;33;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, that's very good. Yeah, that's very good. That's it's I think at this point it seems fair to suspect everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So let's back.

00;31;33;03 - 00;31;33;10
Josh Lewis
To that.

00;31;33;10 - 00;31;44;25
Joshua Hoffert
Conversation. Yeah I bet that's right. It's well it's true, you know and and it's we're you can we could go back the last 20 years and go. It's fair to suspect everybody and which is sad.

00;31;44;28 - 00;32;09;14
Josh Lewis
I think my reflex just there was I've heard people say God built this. Therefore yes, it must be God's plan and purpose and design. I think what I'm afraid of doing is saying, Oh God built this. Therefore, people should trust something that God has built that. That's where I'm like, oh no, I don't want to, I don't I want people to judge me on the basis of the doctrines that we preach, the scriptures that we actually the character that we conduct ourselves in.

00;32;09;19 - 00;32;27;27
Josh Lewis
I don't want people to say, oh, look at this. The favor that God has put on this. Therefore, everything that comes out of this thing must be God. So that was me trying to like, help the audience exercise discernment about even the ministry that I lead. Because I would rather you have a discernment muscle that you exercise even with me.

00;32;28;00 - 00;32;39;06
Josh Lewis
Then for me to just somehow teach you subliminally, that you should just blindly follow people that have God's favor on their life. And so that's that. That's just me. It's almost like I think navigate that.

00;32;39;06 - 00;33;05;02
Joshua Hoffert
It's almost like the the argument that it was the spiritual gifts and the displays of power right off authenticated. The message of the disciples is a bad argument. So as opposed to also the lifestyle, the character, the integrity, the substance of their teaching. Yeah, the way they look like like, okay, if Peter has an affair, he's no longer talked about as an apostle.

00;33;05;04 - 00;33;09;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. So it's almost like that's only part of what you should look at.

00;33;09;05 - 00;33;27;16
Josh Lewis
100%. Yes, the miracles authenticate the message, but that is one of six different points that authenticate the message because false prophets and apostles, apostles and prophets, you know, perform false signs and wonders, right? So that the sign and wonder in and of itself isn't, is not on its own sufficient.

00;33;27;19 - 00;33;43;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So and the sign and wonder doesn't go, oh, the remnant radio experienced so much growth. We must trust them. Now that's it's almost that's what I mean. It's almost the same argument as the cessation as go. Well we got to trust it's the, it's the, it's the gifts and the display that that undergird the message. Well they're one part of it.

00;33;43;17 - 00;34;11;17
Joshua Hoffert
So they, it's not that they don't, it's they're one part of it. So I'm just having fun with some of our cessation as brothers there. Sure. Yes, yes, of course you have to. I just a question flowing from Murray's question two of pulling down the fences. Right. And just diving into the journey a little bit. What, what especially in those early stages, what were some of the moments?

00;34;11;19 - 00;34;34;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right. The describing the experience in that church with the red suits. what were some of the moments that your theological presuppositions can you point in where they just came crumbling down before you and you had to put them back together and you went that one, that one, or what were the challenging moments? Maybe it was an interview with different people, the challenging moments where you went.

00;34;34;16 - 00;34;57;09
Joshua Hoffert
I really have to consider that particular belief structure and think through that again, because I, I totally understand when you talk about how you learn. I was, I was reading, oh, it was a house church phase exploring that I went through, and I was reading Neil Coles book Organic Leadership, and he was talking about, different styles of learning.

00;34;57;09 - 00;35;09;19
Joshua Hoffert
And it was the first time I felt like someone described my style of learning. You know, you got kinetic and auditory learners and all that. And he talked about argumentative learners. And I thought, that makes a lot.

00;35;09;22 - 00;35;10;17
Murray Dueck


00;35;10;20 - 00;35;10;28
Josh Lewis
No it.

00;35;10;28 - 00;35;14;03
Joshua Hoffert
Doesn't. Yeah, yeah. No it does. It.

00;35;15;26 - 00;35;16;14
Murray Dueck
yeah.

00;35;16;17 - 00;35;23;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well you gotta you want to poke holes in the theory so that you understand. And also you do that you don't agree with it. Yeah. But if it.

00;35;23;15 - 00;35;24;28
Josh Lewis
Can stand, it must be true.

00;35;24;29 - 00;35;41;26
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. So I want to be able to argue against it so that I can understand it more. Right. And so I totally understand that. So what were those. What were some of those, you know, quote unquote, sacred cows for you? And moments along the way where you were like, this one, I might have to drop this one. You know, you mentioned tithe, right?

00;35;41;28 - 00;36;01;22
Josh Lewis
Yeah. Man, I, I think maybe the biggest one was just ecclesiology. I think as weird as that sounds like, I know that's a big fun thing for people to talk about today. So maybe it's just I'm just a product of my culture, but, so maybe a couple that come to mind, I think I idolized, Ephesians four.

00;36;01;22 - 00;36;26;12
Josh Lewis
I believe the fivefold ministry was an hierarchical office structure. Sure. and, I believe them now to be gifts and not offices. Right. as odd as that is, that the gifts of the spirit are non-gendered. they're given to all of God's people. that's just the way that that works. as far as I see it right now, and, at the time, I really believe that it was the answer to the church.

00;36;26;12 - 00;36;42;05
Josh Lewis
In fact, I remember doing a talk, a couple talks, same talk, but different times, asking on a whiteboard, everyone tell me every problem that you think is going on with a big C American church. Tell me everything you can think of. We're not bride bashing. I just want to assess it. we're on unified call. Right it up on the board.

00;36;42;21 - 00;36;58;08
Josh Lewis
we don't have deep doctrine, okay? We're shallow. Cool. And then, you know, we've got, we don't we don't love each other. Well, cool love anyway. So I just have him write everything down on the board and then I'd say, okay, now let's read Ephesians chapter four. Right. And he gave some to be apostles.

00;36;58;10 - 00;37;12;10
Josh Lewis
He ascended to the lower regions of the earth as he was in it high, and gave gifts to men. So to be apostles and prophets, and evangelize, and pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edification of the body of Christ. Right. Building us up the unity of faith, right, and knowledge to the mature stature.

00;37;12;10 - 00;37;28;18
Josh Lewis
It's all like we are walking through the passage and I'm like, is there a single thing that you have on this whiteboard that's not addressed by this? And people go, oh, wow, no, actually everything, everything that's I was like, maybe. And I would I would preach it just like this in in first Samuel, I think it's 18. They're like, we want a king, we want a king.

00;37;28;18 - 00;37;48;01
Josh Lewis
We'd be like all the other nations. And, you know, I think what's happened is we've said we want to be like all the other churches. We want a senior pastor, an associate pastor, a youth pastor, a children's pastor, and a worship leader for the equipping of the saints. And what we've done is we've done the very thing that, Samuel said, you lose your influence, you lose your money, you lose your children.

00;37;48;01 - 00;38;09;26
Josh Lewis
And that's what's happening to the church. We're losing all of our our wisdom, our theology, because we've we've traded the earthly, carnal model of the earth trying to be like all the other churches, rather than following the biblical model. and again, I'm not necessarily holding this. You now, I do think that an aspect of that is true, that we have rejected the biblical leadership model of the scriptures for whatever works, and I think that's a problem.

00;38;09;26 - 00;38;32;18
Josh Lewis
But sure. the application point to say that it was these gifts, I actually I was convinced and it took a long time for the Lord to to break my soul on this. I was convinced that these personality types, that these gifted individuals were the answer to our sinful nature and the corruption of our sinful flesh. And I started looking to men rather than God.

00;38;32;24 - 00;38;55;28
Josh Lewis
I was looking to gifts, you know, the gift rather than the giver. Right. and, and that was, that was bad and sinful and, and, so, so there was a season where that was being uprooted in my life. But then along lot, probably a right around that same time, I was reading Eric Metaxas book on Luther, and there's a lot of Luther commentaries.

00;38;55;28 - 00;39;18;03
Josh Lewis
From what I understand, many of them aren't too dissimilar. but he is a great author and a great writer. And I read that book. And I tell you, I think outside of the Bible, maybe the rise and triumph of the modern self. I think that book probably has changed more of my life than any other book, because of the moment in time that I read it like I was.

00;39;18;03 - 00;39;34;26
Josh Lewis
I was in a season where, you know, I'm in a staff meeting and there's a church discipline issue and I'm saying, hey, this is what the Bible says on how we address it. And my leader says, it's not what what you think or what you think. The Bible says in talking to everyone in the room, because but I'm in charge.

00;39;34;28 - 00;39;54;18
Josh Lewis
And I just realized as I'm reading this book, I have traded one pope for another, right? Like we're not, we're not, we're not saying, what does the Bible say? Jesus is the shepherd of the church. I'm going to be obedient to what Christ has commanded us. But we're we're appealing to authority as a means to govern. And I just go, oh, no, like, this is not this is not what I signed up for.

00;39;54;20 - 00;40;16;07
Josh Lewis
Right. And that that caused me to fall into a spiral of like, you know, epistemology of, like, you know, am I going to get into a church where I'm going to be someone's associate pastor for another six years and then find out six years later that I'm more committed to the Bible than they are, and then have to x communicate myself from the church because we're tolerating sin.

00;40;16;22 - 00;40;33;23
Josh Lewis
and not everything is a sin issue. I mean, this person was literally sleeping with their fiance and confessed it on the microphone publicly in front of the church, continued to live in sin, became members of the church, and were taking communion. And by the time I found out about it and I was like, guys, like the Bible is explicit on this issue.

00;40;33;24 - 00;40;55;03
Josh Lewis
Like we cannot offer communion. Like that is not a thing. Like there's there's literally a Bible verse about this exact thing. Like, I'm not even I'm not even like wisdom principle. And it's my principle versus your principle. I'm like explicit text of scripture, right? this wasn't like, you know, should we do communion quarterly? Like, it wasn't like it wasn't even then, actually, I die on that hill now.

00;40;55;04 - 00;40;58;25
Josh Lewis
I wouldn't die on that hill then. Like I'm a weekly communion guy, right?

00;40;58;25 - 00;40;59;15
Joshua Hoffert
So. Yeah.

00;41;00;11 - 00;41;26;02
Josh Lewis
but but neither. Neither here nor there. yeah. So so there were some of that, but but as much as people hear me, maybe even. crapping on the Pentecostal space that I was in, I want people to know I was so formed and fashioned in pursuing God and encountering God in legitimate and authentic ways that will shape me for the rest of my life.

00;41;26;02 - 00;41;44;08
Josh Lewis
I would go through all of the pain and the discomfort and the disillusionment all over again, because I do not ever want to lose the memory of being that near to the Lord and pursuing the Lord. It is. It has become a part of me. So as much as I go, oh, there are things that I would have liked to reform.

00;41;44;26 - 00;41;59;10
Josh Lewis
I am forever shaped and indebted to that tradition. I have immense respect and love for that space. so yeah, I think, I think, I think it's about the end. Does that answer your question? I know you're like, hey.

00;41;59;14 - 00;42;18;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I see, I don't know if you guys want to do it now, but I'd love to hear more about, your view of the fivefold title versus function here. just turn that down a little bit more because I'm sure our listeners are going, wait, what? You know, there's many of us. We did. Yeah, many of us have had, you know, and, you know, I've been through about eight church splits myself.

00;42;18;27 - 00;42;35;26
Murray Dueck
So we've had these, you know, I increase, for example, you know, you'll read a newspaper at Apostle needed must have own bicycle because, you know, a messenger. So like, I wouldn't mind hearing a little bit more about that. I think it would be good for our listeners to to go. Wait. Sure. Hold on. What do you mean by that?

00;42;35;29 - 00;42;36;08
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;42;36;13 - 00;42;54;21
Josh Lewis
Well, well, let's just take this as an exercise, for example. you know, some people will make a big difference between prophet and prophecy. I don't, I think anyone can prophesy, but I think someone who frequents prophecy is a prophet, right. Like, I just I don't I don't think there's that big of a distinction, you know, people.

00;42;54;21 - 00;43;08;29
Josh Lewis
But Ephesians four prophet is equipping the saints for the work of the ministry. Well, if you prophesy and you tell someone to go to plan a church, you're equipping them with courage. You're encouraging them to go to church, even if it's the only time you've ever done it. You're equipping the saints for ministry. So like all the gifts are for that.

00;43;09;06 - 00;43;32;01
Josh Lewis
So I just think that sometimes we get to, to rigid with Ephesians four verses Romans 12 or first Corinthians 12. Sure. Yeah. In a way that the original authors, I don't think would have. Right. So, so first of all, like when it comes to prophecy, or evangelism or pastoring, these are activities in the body of Christ.

00;43;33;04 - 00;43;51;08
Josh Lewis
and yes, they're given to individuals, but I had a friend who came to faith at 17 and usually concentrated prophetic gift at the very beginning of his salvation experience. I remember he wrote down multiple pages in a spiral binder of things that he believed were going to happen in his school year, and all of them happened before he graduated that year.

00;43;51;24 - 00;44;20;26
Josh Lewis
now what? I place that guy in charge of the Church of Jesus Christ because he has an exhibited prophetic gift. Well, no, he's not mature. Right. So, like the qualifications for a leader in the church are defined by elder and deacon. Now, you might have, a tradition that has a bishop. Cool. Let's just let's just place that under the category of elder temporarily and say that the offices of the church as defined in the New Testament are character driven and qualification driven, not gifted, driven.

00;44;20;29 - 00;44;41;12
Josh Lewis
So the leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ, as far as I'm concerned, are elder and deacon. And I'm I'm open to, you know, bishop or kind of an apostolic regional thing. And I know that's in Ephesians four, but, but just kind of work with me here for a second. I would say that if you and I'm, I'm going to be a little bit more, particular with my definition of apostle.

00;44;41;15 - 00;45;02;01
Josh Lewis
I don't think overseeing a bunch of churches makes you an apostle. I think planting a bunch of churches makes you an apostle. Right. I think, you know, if somebody died and you got voted in, you know, you might you might have that role. That's cool. But like, the actual grace as it looks like in the New Testament is a supernatural empowerment to raise up leaders to plant churches.

00;45;02;07 - 00;45;24;02
Josh Lewis
If you plant a church, I don't think you're an apostle any more than if you, you know, win one soul that you're an evangelist. I think that, you know, you plant a couple of churches. Maybe you have an apostolic grace in your life. Okay. but but to that capacity. Hear me out. If if God is going to empower a man to go plant a church, are you going to tell me for one second that God is not going to supply that same measure of grace to his wife and children?

00;45;25;12 - 00;45;42;10
Josh Lewis
I just I don't think he says, hey, I'm an empowered dad and good luck for the rest of you, right? I just don't think that's the way that works. so I just go, man, I think the gifts are non-gendered. I think they're not specific. And just because a kid, maybe apostolic grace doesn't mean that he's going to be leading the Church of Jesus Christ.

00;45;42;12 - 00;46;07;06
Josh Lewis
Like, that's foolish. So. So I think kids can have evangelistic gifts. I think kids can have pastoral gifts. I think that kids can actually discern, oh, that's false doctrine. That's bad teaching. We should keep people away from that. But they're not going to lead the church. So I think that you can look at, the gifts of the spirit, according to Joel, to acts to young, old, male, female, it is nondiscriminatory in its nature.

00;46;07;17 - 00;46;38;20
Josh Lewis
and when we begin to say the nondiscriminatory gifts, then therefore, are to be used in the very discriminatory leadership roles of the church. the leadership roles of the church are determined by qualification and character, and age. You can't be a new convert. You see what I'm saying? And I think that when when we get to determining church leadership based off of Ephesians four, what we end up doing is neglecting first Timothy and Titus when which focuses more on qualification, discernment, the handling of the scriptures, those kinds of things.

00;46;38;22 - 00;46;58;01
Josh Lewis
So, we would find many people in many churches who would be following a prophet because he's prophetically gifted but cannot handle the scriptures. right, right. And and cut this out. If you want to cut this out, Josh, feel free to edit this, but like, Bob Jones, deep breathing and teaching people to travel to heaven is something I can't get behind.

00;46;58;09 - 00;47;01;04
Josh Lewis
But because he actually had a legitimate prophetic gift, I.

00;47;01;04 - 00;47;03;11
Joshua Hoffert
Would never cut anything out. You said Josh, okay, okay.

00;47;03;14 - 00;47;18;16
Josh Lewis
So like, you could have a legitimate prophetic gift and and land prophetic words if people go, oh wow, that's good. But like, I would never want that guy teaching in my church ever. He doesn't handle he can't handle the word of God. Well, like, I just that's just a thing. Like, yeah, maybe, maybe God is really empowering this guy.

00;47;18;16 - 00;47;32;27
Josh Lewis
But why is he leading the church? Don't let that guy lead a church, right? Like that's not good. That's wrong. So. So I think to some extent we can say, spiritual gifts don't qualify leaders. and those two things are, are mutually exclusive. Right. So.

00;47;33;07 - 00;48;00;16
Joshua Hoffert
I, you know, well, I, I my it's those who don't follow the podcast know that my background was involved has been involvement with Streams ministries. Right. I was heavily influenced by John Paul Jackson who was friends with Bob Jones. Church also expressed grave concerns about Bob Bob Jones as well. and I don't know that he expressed those publicly because he respected Bob's, but he definitely expressed those, just in casual conversation.

00;48;00;22 - 00;48;10;25
Joshua Hoffert
Right. so anyway, that's I'm not commenting on Bob Jones. I would comment on Bob Jones and saying there was a lot of crap just concerning things.

00;48;10;25 - 00;48;11;00
Josh Lewis
Yeah.

00;48;11;00 - 00;48;41;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, concerning and absolutely. And for but but what I wanted to say is many people considered John Paul and a, an Ephesians four prophet. Sure. Right. That's what they would. That's the language that they would. I like what you're saying, you know, office of prophet, right? When when I spent time with John Paul, anytime I came home from having spent time with John Paul, I left with an insatiable desire to study scripture and no more.

00;48;41;12 - 00;49;05;17
Joshua Hoffert
Sure, that was the in double mark. His presence left on me was, I want to know the Bible the way this guy knows the Bible. All right. I want to be able to see the kind of things that he sees in Scripture. I want to study this and know this. Yeah. Right. And and to me, that's that's that that's the effective working of that grace through that person's life to impact me and inspire me not to go.

00;49;05;18 - 00;49;30;14
Joshua Hoffert
I need to follow a quote unquote, Ephesians four level prophet. Right. But the grace that God established in their life has now impacted me, and I'm being fed and nurtured in the same way. Now, I want to understand Scripture, and I'm hungry for that. On my own. Not well. I need more of. And this is where we've gotten so caught up with this kind of stuff, is we go back to like, oh, that teacher keeps feeding me.

00;49;30;14 - 00;49;48;12
Joshua Hoffert
Well, no, no, no, no. Like that's not how that works, right? It's like the spirit feeds you and he might lead you to different people, but when it's a gift versus an office, then we're participating. Like I remember, I think it's, Yeah. Cassian in his conference is the the desert father, John Cassian. in his conferences, he talks about.

00;49;48;16 - 00;50;07;03
Joshua Hoffert
I think it's Cassian. I could be wrong. It's a desert, father. We'll just say that he talks about how the gifts that are given are meant for the broader community. They're not just. That's like, if I have a gift or someone else has a gift, the whole purpose of us coming together is to participate in in the gift that we all are.

00;50;07;05 - 00;50;32;28
Joshua Hoffert
It's not to elevate or to establish a ministry platform or a name or anything. It's to be a gift to the body and serve together unanimously. And and which is a really beautiful picture. And it's interesting. when Murray and I did a couple conversations looking at fivefold ministry and, and, and I think largely we would say, yeah, like, we're in the same place that you are.

00;50;33;00 - 00;51;00;23
Joshua Hoffert
And I love that you've kind of distilled, or simplified the term profit there. Right. And, anyway, that's good. the, the one of my takeaways with Ephesians four and studying it, especially looking at it through patristic lens because the patristic never looked at apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher as they would, I think Tertullian called them offices, but not in the sense of a leadership position or a structure of leadership at all.

00;51;00;26 - 00;51;27;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Or or anything like that. I'm, I'm getting somewhere with this in, in a couple of different ways. Paul, when he quotes, he's quote quoting Psalm 6818 when he said he ascended, first descended and gave gifts to mankind. Right. When you read Psalm 6818, it actually says he. He who, ascended is the one who descended and he received gifts among mankind.

00;51;27;08 - 00;51;50;05
Joshua Hoffert
So the the verse in the Psalms is different than the verse in Ephesians four. Yeah. So the patristic theology essentially was saying that, and I think, again, I think it's certainly in who, hypothesizes this, the reason Paul changes the tense right, in Psalms he received in Ephesians he gave is because that everything Jesus received as a man, he gave to humanity.

00;51;50;05 - 00;51;50;28
Josh Lewis
That's right.

00;51;51;00 - 00;52;11;29
Joshua Hoffert
And that's the whole reason is it's a gift. And it and the whole point of Ephesians four is, is like the whole point of Ephesians one through three. Leading into four is talking about the majesty of Jesus. Yeah. It's like that's the point. Like the point isn't the office or the ecumenical structure of leadership. Yes, that's right, a witness to the person of Jesus.

00;52;11;29 - 00;52;27;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's the whole point of Ephesians one through four. And this is what Jesus is like. And by the way, he ascended and all these people are doing the stuff that he used to do, and it's all pointing back to him. That's what. That's right. That's all. I mean, that's all Paul's trying to say is all this stuff.

00;52;27;09 - 00;52;27;22
Josh Lewis
I think so.