From Charismatic to Orthodox: The Charismata in the Orthodox Church and the Familial Language of the Prophets, an Interview with Fr Michael Gillis Part 1

In the west, we have taken metaphors and made them systems. But God describes his bride through familial language. For Fr Michael, it is not mechanism we must discover, but the family we must encourage. Beginning in foster homes at a young age, discovering the Charismatic move in the 70s and 80s, and eventually discovering the early church fathers and the Orthodox Church, Father Michael Gillis touches on the church as a place of healing and the journey that brought him to where he is today. Buckle up because this episode is seriously deep and challenging!

For more about Fr Mike visit: https://www.holynativitychurch.ca/

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Here is a link to the Russian fool Fr Mike refers to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjzNwRU-Dhg

Transcript

00;00;16;01 - 00;00;27;04
Murray Dueck
Know you know. That's. That's how you know, my brain is tweaking here a little bit because my brain. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what's going great. Father Mike knows me well enough.

00;00;27;07 - 00;00;29;28
Joshua Hoffert
He's my first inside frame.

00;00;30;00 - 00;00;49;03
Murray Dueck
I've always taken those new content. I've put some new features on. That's what God says. But we're talking about numbers, ransom, theology. But that's what Christ does on the cross, that these two things are separate. One is birthed out of the other.

00;00;49;05 - 00;01;00;05
Father Michael Gillis
Well, they're not separate.

00;01;00;08 - 00;01;01;07
Murray Dueck
Welcome, everyone.

00;01;01;07 - 00;01;11;10
Joshua Hoffert
Two voices from the desert. Desert, desert, desert looks good. Ready to dissect theology.

00;01;11;13 - 00;01;14;19
Murray Dueck
Amen. Haha. That's great. Really very good.

00;01;14;26 - 00;01;21;06
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, well, we're we're incorporating the the WWF catchphrase into our.

00;01;21;07 - 00;01;28;00
Murray Dueck
We're moving on from coyote howls, the coyote howls. Anything else that kind of fits on, yelled out, out loud to bounce off a cliff?

00;01;28;01 - 00;01;28;18
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;01;28;25 - 00;01;30;19
Murray Dueck
It's kind of where it is today.

00;01;30;21 - 00;01;35;18
Joshua Hoffert
Hey, I love watching the Royal Rumble when I was a kid. Yeah. Yes.

00;01;35;21 - 00;01;37;23
Murray Dueck
I can't get that voice out of your head.

00;01;37;25 - 00;02;02;00
Joshua Hoffert
No, actually, I had I had friends, I had some friends in high school who used to set up cage matches, and they were dead serious about going that. I mean, they'd like they would set up these whole parties and people would come over and they'd put fences and chains and wrestle lines us out of each other. Yeah, that that was, you know, that was growing up in California.

00;02;02;03 - 00;02;02;15
Father Michael Gillis
You had.

00;02;02;15 - 00;02;03;20
Murray Dueck
Malt friends.

00;02;03;20 - 00;02;14;20
Joshua Hoffert
Who had some tough. Well, they thought they were tough. I don't know if they actually were tough. They they liked the showmanship of it all. So they'd dress up like their favorite wrestler and,

00;02;14;23 - 00;02;16;14
Murray Dueck
Oh, wow. Yeah. They're committed.

00;02;16;18 - 00;02;34;00
Joshua Hoffert
They were really committed. It's true. Yeah. It's throwing each other through tables. And this is a I'm sure it would have been like really popular YouTube videos if that had been the thing back then. wow. Yeah. So so we don't need to revisit that, I guess, you're both.

00;02;34;00 - 00;02;35;08
Murray Dueck
From California.

00;02;35;10 - 00;02;41;08
Joshua Hoffert
And so from from. Yeah, from Royal Rumble to,

00;02;41;11 - 00;02;43;23
Murray Dueck
Oh, rumbling about theology. It's kind of like, well.

00;02;43;27 - 00;02;44;15
Joshua Hoffert
There we go.

00;02;44;18 - 00;02;47;01
Murray Dueck
Kind of working our way through it, right? Yeah.

00;02;47;06 - 00;03;11;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, well, I guess it's, it's, you know, this is our, our marine air space to, try and wrestle through concepts that we don't quite understand and, figuring out what we think. And I think we would it's like we read it's funny with as, I one person reviewed our podcast and said it's, theological recovery for Protestants.

00;03;11;10 - 00;03;30;15
Joshua Hoffert
All right. and I thought, that's very true because we're reading this stuff and going, we're I it's it's not within our tradition. Right. It's like it's like looking at a foreign world sometimes. And you go, I think sometimes I've been touched by this aspect of God, but I don't I don't see it at all in my church experience.

00;03;30;15 - 00;03;33;06
Joshua Hoffert
And now that kind of leads us to.

00;03;33;08 - 00;03;35;22
Murray Dueck
Who was that? That was that Sarah that said that I.

00;03;35;22 - 00;03;39;01
Joshua Hoffert
Can't read was it? It was a review on Apple Podcasts. Someone oh, I love it.

00;03;39;01 - 00;03;40;29
Murray Dueck
What a great statement that just,

00;03;41;02 - 00;03;50;03
Joshua Hoffert
Theological recovery for Protestants. Yeah. That's. Yeah. So that's it's my theory, actually. It's theological recovery for Murray and I. It's funny.

00;03;50;03 - 00;03;51;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah. yeah.

00;03;52;01 - 00;03;53;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.

00;03;53;02 - 00;03;55;03
Murray Dueck
Well, welcome to our journey.

00;03;55;04 - 00;03;57;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. What do we have for the day, Murr?

00;03;57;16 - 00;04;30;29
Murray Dueck
Well, we you know, I don't know how many times everyone that we say probably every third episode. Well, we're going to have to get father Mike to come on and fix this or something like that, or at least give us his point of view. So, guess the father would, would, dare say he's fixing anything, but but it's nice to, have someone who's maybe a little further down the road on these things and who can walk back down the road to where we are and go this way, guys, you know, and, and, you know, I again, I probably said it before, but I remember John Sanford, the old, the old prophet

00;04;31;02 - 00;04;47;26
Murray Dueck
said there was a pastor in his town that that would say this certain sentence about him. And he thought it was a funny thing ever. But but he would say about John Sanford, John Sanford is like a wild Indian sage who walks off into the wilderness and comes back bug eyed and goes, not that way, boy, he's not that way.

00;04;47;28 - 00;05;07;24
Murray Dueck
And, so Father Mike's here to help us not do that. Yeah, in a way, yeah, of course I'm teasing. So he's, just so graciously, been willing to come back and just chat and, and pick up on some of our themes that I've been working on with for about five, 4 or 5 weeks. Bride of Christ.

00;05;08;01 - 00;05;26;03
Murray Dueck
And really, where we left off, which is, the church is a therapeutic place. The church is a healing place. And so, father Mike, good to have you back. Thank you for joining us in all our hilarity, supposedly hilarity and Josh, I'll pass it over back to you, I guess. Well, we'll.

00;05;26;05 - 00;05;56;28
Joshua Hoffert
We'll say, we'll say this. so, father Mike, Father Michael Gillis, the the parish priest in, you're in Langley or Surrey? Which one? Langley. Langley. That's what I thought. Holy, Holy Nativity church in Langley. And you'll also host the podcast praying in the rain. Yeah. and with, and, I love your your podcast is easy because it's like, you know, concepts aren't easy.

00;05;56;28 - 00;06;23;02
Joshua Hoffert
I'm not saying that, but it's like, I can get a very meaty thing to think through process in 20 minutes. And, you know, and so I just encourage anybody out there, you can you check out Father Mike's, podcast, The Praying in the rain. And, you know, if you're in Langley visit, you find that? Yeah, stop by and visit the church, and you would be a better person because of it.

00;06;23;16 - 00;06;33;07
Joshua Hoffert
not the least. Which because you didn't, you'd encounter father Mike. But one of the things we'll talk about in the theme is that the church makes you a better person. So.

00;06;33;10 - 00;06;33;28
Murray Dueck
Or it should.

00;06;34;05 - 00;06;53;08
Joshua Hoffert
Or it should. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's, Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a that's a concept we'll, we'll work through. And so like, like Maria said, we've been going through well actually for father Mike, we'll just take a second and everybody maybe, was who is listening a year ago when we had you on would need a bit of a refresher.

00;06;53;22 - 00;07;11;27
Joshua Hoffert
where because you've got a you've got an interesting foot in the the kind of traditional evangelical camp. But having moved a number of years ago into Orthodoxy, can you give a five minute description of your journey there?

00;07;12;00 - 00;07;48;10
Father Michael Gillis
Sure. I started out, as a Jesus junkie in the 70s, and, eventually found my way into, a Foursquare church and found a group of, people who, kept reading older and older books and, and our we started praying daily at six in the morning, and we did that for years and years, like seven, eight years.

00;07;48;12 - 00;07;50;17
Murray Dueck
Wow. Like how often.

00;07;50;19 - 00;07;52;27
Father Michael Gillis
Every day 6 a.m..

00;07;53;00 - 00;07;53;28
Murray Dueck
Amazing.

00;07;54;00 - 00;07;56;29
Father Michael Gillis
And,

00;07;57;01 - 00;08;18;01
Joshua Hoffert
What? So what did prayer like that one, by the way, just did this. What did prayer look like then? Was it, you know, was it because in the, you know, the four square was was, you know, in one sense a charismatic part of the charismatic move, you know, and finding roots back in the four square. Right?

00;08;18;01 - 00;08;19;12
Joshua Hoffert
I think it was it was,

00;08;19;15 - 00;08;20;14
Father Michael Gillis
I mean, McPherson.

00;08;20;15 - 00;08;22;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Amy. Simple, if you're.

00;08;22;09 - 00;08;32;18
Father Michael Gillis
Right and a course ism that. Yeah, that's by the 90s, 80s and 90s was, and many of the churches were more charismatic.

00;08;32;18 - 00;08;34;01
Joshua Hoffert
Church on the West.

00;08;34;03 - 00;08;36;03
Father Michael Gillis
That sort of thing.

00;08;36;05 - 00;08;38;24
Murray Dueck
We have heard. Right. Jackie. We were.

00;08;38;24 - 00;08;42;25
Father Michael Gillis
Very actually close with the vineyard in Anaheim.

00;08;43;02 - 00;08;44;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;08;44;04 - 00;08;45;00
Father Michael Gillis
So.

00;08;45;02 - 00;08;49;16
Joshua Hoffert
So, yeah. What did 6 a.m. prayer look like for you guys as you were kind of making that journey?

00;08;49;16 - 00;09;17;20
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah. It started out as something quite charismatic. We, you know, worship and try to prophesy and, you know, and, and the first year was actually very amazing, which is we wouldn't have kept doing it except, you know, from our perspective, these miracles were happening. We were prophesying things and they were happening and people were getting healed.

00;09;17;20 - 00;10;05;20
Father Michael Gillis
And so it was the hottest thing going on was the 6 a.m., prayer meeting. Wow. But then after a year or so, it got to be more a matter of discipline. And we started our worship, started to change from sort of the singing in the spirit sort of thing, or the worship songs leading to singing what we called singing in the spirit at to, more ties style worship with, you know, maybe someone playing a flute or a harp or, and we began memorizing scripture.

00;10;05;20 - 00;10;32;09
Father Michael Gillis
We got into memorizing because we were influenced by this very early Christian community in Egypt, started by Saint Paul. Call me as in the, late third, early fourth century. and that's all they did was that was their major prayer was citing scripture and.

00;10;32;10 - 00;10;33;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;10;34;04 - 00;10;54;11
Father Michael Gillis
in fact, it's really interesting that for the first, say, 400, 500 years, you could not be a leader in the church unless you had completely memorized the Psalter. Wow. Common to pray the whole Psalter every day.

00;10;54;13 - 00;10;55;02
Murray Dueck
Oh my goodness.

00;10;55;07 - 00;11;18;26
Father Michael Gillis
It takes about four hours, 4.5 hours. but there's no television, right? So what are you going to do in the evening? and so these holy Christians, would recite from memory the Psalter, or they would recite the Gospel of John the. You have some some.

00;11;19;01 - 00;11;28;11
Joshua Hoffert
This is you can't you might not be able to make it out. I'm showing it on the camera. For those of you this an audio a desert prayer book. This is the, the liturgy of Pachomius.

00;11;28;13 - 00;11;29;11
Father Michael Gillis
Oh, yeah, you have it.

00;11;29;17 - 00;11;43;21
Joshua Hoffert
I have was given to me by, a, Orthodox monk friend of mine. So I've got it sitting right here. I've read through it and prayed through it a number of times. Yeah. And, anyway, so I'm very I'm going, oh, I know what that is.

00;11;43;23 - 00;11;48;29
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah. Right. So that influenced us. And then eventually we bumped into the Orthodox Church.

00;11;49;08 - 00;11;50;02
Joshua Hoffert
right.

00;11;50;04 - 00;12;08;29
Father Michael Gillis
We said, oh my goodness. Look, there's people in the world today who read the Scripture and approach the spiritual life the same way the Christians of the first three or 4 or 5 centuries did. we got a sign up, right?

00;12;09;01 - 00;12;09;14
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;12;09;20 - 00;12;21;04
Father Michael Gillis
We did what we needed to do. And, our whole community, 85 of us, were received into the Orthodox Antioch, an Orthodox church.

00;12;21;06 - 00;12;34;02
Joshua Hoffert
So how did what was the introduction? Maybe I, I missed it when I was trying to grab. I don't think I did. What was the introduction to, to, Pachomius. Like, why specifically Pachomius?

00;12;34;04 - 00;12;42;20
Father Michael Gillis
Oh, well, Jump. If you know anything I say, it's a long story.

00;12;42;25 - 00;12;43;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;12;43;12 - 00;12;45;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;12;45;03 - 00;13;17;09
Father Michael Gillis
I was teaching at a graduate school of theology. I wasn't teaching theology. but I was teaching there, and one of the professors was part of a team that had just translated into English a three volume collection of all the works associated with the Pachomius community. Oh, wow. Communities that had. And all of this literature existed in Latin and Greek and French and various.

00;13;17;12 - 00;13;30;28
Father Michael Gillis
But, the whole set of it didn't exist in English. And so they did a three volume, translation of everything into a whole. And so we dug into that.

00;13;31;05 - 00;13;32;18
Joshua Hoffert
That's amazing.

00;13;32;20 - 00;13;47;02
Father Michael Gillis
And what what was so amazing was he here was again, remember this? We're still coming from this charismatic paradigm, Pentecostal charismatic paradigm.

00;13;47;06 - 00;13;47;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;13;47;24 - 00;14;33;22
Father Michael Gillis
So, the miracles were really important and the scripture was really important. But here's these people who were so focused on the Scripture, basically, they knew it by heart. Right? But they're they're interpreter ation was so different from what we had experienced. And the, the power, the charismatic power that they manifested. But like, for example, speaking in tongues when when Comey is spoke in tongues, everyone in the room understood him, all right, no matter what language they spoke.

00;14;33;29 - 00;14;34;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;14;34;10 - 00;14;35;06
Murray Dueck
Oh, wow.

00;14;35;09 - 00;14;59;18
Father Michael Gillis
Yes, exactly. Now, I don't know. You know, what we were I used to participate in we used to sometimes called prayer language. I'm not sure now what that was. Sure. Surely. But I'm pretty sure that what Saint Pachomius was doing was what they were doing in the book of acts.

00;14;59;20 - 00;15;00;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;15;00;10 - 00;15;01;18
Father Michael Gillis
Right.

00;15;01;21 - 00;15;06;04
Murray Dueck
And, it's another level, as they say.

00;15;06;04 - 00;15;11;26
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's at another level. It's it's not kind of like it.

00;15;11;29 - 00;15;14;02
Joshua Hoffert
It's it is it.

00;15;14;04 - 00;15;15;25
Father Michael Gillis
It is it. Right. Yeah.

00;15;16;00 - 00;15;33;16
Murray Dueck
And and so, I mean, it makes sense, just to throw this out there, right there because, somebody said to me the other day and I this was my explanation of it. How can tongues be a sign for the unbeliever, you know? And. Well, I it's a sign to me. It's a sign for an unbeliever. If you're speaking his language and you don't know that language.

00;15;33;18 - 00;15;45;18
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I, I would say that's probably what they're thinking. They weren't thinking. You're talking a heavenly language. Like prayer language. You're talking a language. Yeah. Divinely. And an unbeliever. See that goes, oh my goodness, how does he know my language?

00;15;45;18 - 00;15;50;00
Joshua Hoffert
So anyway yeah that's wow. I'm, I'm.

00;15;50;06 - 00;16;20;28
Father Michael Gillis
And it's not like the only time this has happened in the history of the Orthodox Church. just relatively recently, I was talking to somebody who was, visiting a church and, side in Serbia and Serbia. And at the end of the tour, he went and found the abbot or something and said, oh, thank you for letting that monk show me around.

00;16;20;28 - 00;16;35;06
Father Michael Gillis
So. Oh, that was the wrong monk. He doesn't speak English. Let me find one that speaks English for you. So he and I had this whole tour of the church by a monk who didn't speak English. But he understood everything. He said.

00;16;35;08 - 00;16;36;03
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;16;36;05 - 00;16;58;25
Father Michael Gillis
That's, That's. Wow. Yeah, it's like a it's a different. And of course, there's no, no pride attached to it. There's no, you know, there's no oh, look at this gift. it's it's sort of. Well, of course God does. Wild and crazy. Right?

00;16;58;27 - 00;17;18;20
Joshua Hoffert
Well, you know, you, you, there's just two things real quick. one is a comment on what you said, but just for everybody that's listening to so that they know Pachomius was a disciple. Well, I don't think he was a disciple of Anthony the Great so much as he came after Anthony the Great. was he directly discipled by Anthony?

00;17;18;20 - 00;17;19;26
Joshua Hoffert
I can't I can't quite remember that.

00;17;19;26 - 00;17;42;16
Father Michael Gillis
No, no, no, their journeys were I mean, they were in, you know, they were both Egyptian, but they were in different regions of Egypt. Anthony was along the Red sea, sure, as a commis was in up the, northern part or the southern part of Egypt, which is Upper Nile.

00;17;42;18 - 00;18;00;15
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. So so with Pachomius, I think it's said that, Anthony being the catalyst for the Desert Fathers movement, Pachomius was responsible for its spread. That's exactly so by the time he was passed away. There's like 7000 monks in there.

00;18;00;15 - 00;18;14;23
Father Michael Gillis
And he's more than that. Yeah. He had he actually had 8 to 10 men's monasteries. And, 3 or 4 women's monasteries. The women were on one side of the river and the men were on the other side. Yeah.

00;18;14;25 - 00;18;15;07
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;18;15;26 - 00;18;18;28
Father Michael Gillis
and each monastery had about 1000 monks.

00;18;19;00 - 00;18;19;29
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Yeah.

00;18;20;06 - 00;18;20;17
Murray Dueck
He's.

00;18;20;19 - 00;18;26;18
Father Michael Gillis
The monks were then organized into, communities based on the language they spoke.

00;18;26;18 - 00;18;28;02
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Right.

00;18;28;02 - 00;18;34;02
Father Michael Gillis
So but then comics would regularly address the whole community, and everyone.

00;18;34;02 - 00;18;35;13
Joshua Hoffert
Would they? All right.

00;18;35;16 - 00;18;48;00
Murray Dueck
And they would all understand. And of course. Wow. You know, it's funny because I have this book by a guy named Matthew the Poor who, he's connected to that community today or amongst the monasteries that go back.

00;18;48;00 - 00;18;53;26
Father Michael Gillis
He's actually a bit more tightly connected to the Athens tradition, but yeah.

00;18;53;26 - 00;18;59;17
Murray Dueck
Oh, okay. Because that's a good book, everybody. If you're looking for someone to read from that tradition, Matthew Walker.

00;18;59;18 - 00;19;29;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right. Very good. So, father Mike, you said we haven't even touched on the subjects that we wanted to touch on. I'm just fast. Oh, this is great. The. I want those three volumes of Pachomius. Just the the the little I've been able to get of Pachomius. It's just been fascinating. but you said when you guys were in your first year of exploring this 6 a.m. prayer, that you would get together, worship, and then you would try and prophesy.

00;19;29;28 - 00;19;42;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right. I, I don't I would suspect that you wouldn't characterize, you know, prophetic the prophetic words are you know, there's still in the Orthodox Church today. Right.

00;19;42;04 - 00;19;47;01
Father Michael Gillis
Like, well we were influenced at that time by the Kansas City. Right.

00;19;47;01 - 00;19;48;19
Joshua Hoffert
You try and prophesy.

00;19;48;22 - 00;19;53;26
Father Michael Gillis
Right, thing

00;19;53;28 - 00;19;57;24
Father Michael Gillis
Which is a, a very different paradigm.

00;19;57;24 - 00;19;58;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

00;19;58;18 - 00;20;05;11
Father Michael Gillis
From how the Orthodox would understand how prophecy works.

00;20;05;13 - 00;20;11;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And that's what I'm trying to get at is. Yeah. Giacomo's wasn't trying to speak in tongues.

00;20;11;08 - 00;20;12;03
Father Michael Gillis
No, he wasn't.

00;20;12;03 - 00;20;16;13
Joshua Hoffert
They weren't trying to understand him. There was a supernatural thing.

00;20;16;16 - 00;20;17;21
Father Michael Gillis
That just happened.

00;20;17;21 - 00;20;19;21
Joshua Hoffert
Happened because God.

00;20;19;23 - 00;20;51;11
Father Michael Gillis
Right. And that's how it works in the Orthodox Church. Remember how it says of Caiaphas being the high priest? He prophesied he. It's not like he thought he was prophesying or he was going to prophesy or or he intended to prophesy. Not that there aren't maybe people throughout history who can, you know, sort of intend to prophesy, but they're strange birds.

00;20;51;11 - 00;21;07;11
Father Michael Gillis
They're not, they're not they're not people you bump into every day. I mean, just look at the scripture. You would not want to be Jeremiah's best friend. this is not an easy guy to hang out with.

00;21;07;14 - 00;21;10;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Come, come. Lay on your side with me for a couple of months.

00;21;10;23 - 00;21;11;03
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah.

00;21;11;10 - 00;21;19;23
Murray Dueck
Ezekiel. Yeah. Hope I'm Bruce breathing in, my friend. Do you always say, prophetic people are like a box of cereal full of nuts in flakes?

00;21;19;26 - 00;21;20;19
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah.

00;21;21;22 - 00;21;38;29
Murray Dueck
so, but you guys in the Orthodox Church, you still have this category of saint called fool for Christ, right? Yes. Where? Where, you know, it's like, hey, this stuff happens, and these people might be a little bit whatever, but for it, you know, this is the Lord. So you want to mention anything about that? Quick.

00;21;38;29 - 00;22;13;02
Father Michael Gillis
Just go. We have a lot of respect for crazy people. and you know, when someone, if someone gets really close to God and they're still living in the world, there is a huge cognitive cognitive dissonance, right? If you draw close to God in a monastery, you know, you're surrounded with people who are on the same journey.

00;22;13;05 - 00;22;48;22
Father Michael Gillis
But in the world, it's there's just this huge cognitive dissonance, right? And, and it commonly happens that very holy people, you know, it depends on the tradition. In the Greek tradition, they always say he feigned insanity. He feigned madness. and the Western tradition, they just say he was mad. He was he was crazy. But he was a saint, right?

00;22;48;25 - 00;23;27;11
Father Michael Gillis
He walked barefoot in Moscow in the winter, and and lived to rebuke czars and and, walk up to strangers and say and enigmatic things that nobody but that stranger understood, by the way, a new fool for Christ. There's a great YouTube video. Saint Gabriel of Georgia. Look it up. Saint Gabriel of Georgia, during the Communist times in Georgia.

00;23;27;17 - 00;23;57;01
Father Michael Gillis
not Georgia, US. yeah. Large Asia and Asia. and then post-communist times, very, very interesting story about this is, a man who was, and very, very close to God. But because of the craziness of the world he lived in a kind of made him a fool, made him but a fool for Christ. Right?

00;23;57;03 - 00;24;04;07
Father Michael Gillis
Right. That's what we say. A fool for Christ in the sense that, for Christ's sake, they don't fit in anymore.

00;24;05;25 - 00;24;08;12
Murray Dueck
but what was its name again? I'll just want to make sure we get it.

00;24;08;12 - 00;24;10;05
Father Michael Gillis
Gabriel of Georgia.

00;24;10;10 - 00;24;20;00
Joshua Hoffert
Gabriel or I'll. I'll put a link in it to a YouTube video. Yeah, yeah I did. That's. Yeah. That's you mercy. That's awesome.

00;24;20;03 - 00;24;56;29
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah, it's a great little video and it just kind of shows you, I mean, the thing is, the Orthodox Church. Is full of extremely holy people, but they're almost all hidden or disguised, and it's full of terrible sinners who are in the church for the wrong reason, who abuse and misuse people. so the Orthodox Church is, it's a hospital.

00;24;57;01 - 00;25;10;27
Father Michael Gillis
It's a full of sick people, full of sick people. And so you have to kind of be careful just because a guy's wearing black and has a beard doesn't mean you should trust him.

00;25;11;00 - 00;25;11;10
Murray Dueck


00;25;11;10 - 00;25;41;18
Father Michael Gillis
That's right. Doesn't mean just because you call him father or bishop or or Abbott. No, no, no, you you need to pay attention. Get to know that person. And as you get to know that person, it may turn out that that person is a little bit holy, a little bit, crazy for God. and, and will speak things into your life.

00;25;41;20 - 00;26;05;24
Father Michael Gillis
Truths into your life that will drive you batty until they just sort of sink into your heart. I, I when I go to my spiritual father, it's often happened that, he will have a conversation. And in my mind, I'm going. Yeah, you know what? He just isn't understanding what I'm talking. I he's just not getting this.

00;26;05;26 - 00;26;32;17
Father Michael Gillis
And so I will just move on to something else. But then whatever it is he said will start to bug me. I circle back and go for weeks sometimes, and then I'll realize, oh, I was the one who didn't understand. I was the one who didn't know what I was talking about. He was seeing clearly. yeah.

00;26;32;20 - 00;26;40;21
Father Michael Gillis
Wow. So we have these very holy people, but they're not easy to find. They're hidden.

00;26;40;24 - 00;26;55;24
Murray Dueck
And that's very different than, I think, our Western culture. Because in the charismatic movement, you know, if you've got a gift, let's get a podcast. Hey, look what we're doing. And, and, and a video and a film crew and, you know, get your blog going that.

00;26;55;27 - 00;27;13;18
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, I, you know, I heard a, it was a quote unquote prophetic word six months or so ago, which was, all of you, Pete, all of you prophetic people, go start your podcast. God wants you to have a voice and to speak, and people need to hear your message and, you know, get out of the cave and go into the media.

00;27;13;18 - 00;27;23;15
Joshua Hoffert
That was the you know, that was the call, right? It's of course, then that person six months later said the exact opposite. Two because, oh, you know.

00;27;23;18 - 00;27;37;13
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah, this is the scripture. Warn us about that. Yeah. you know, if someone says, thus saith the Lord and it doesn't happen, yeah. Yeah, it's it's better not it's better to say nothing.

00;27;37;13 - 00;27;54;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it's better to say I think that's right. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that we, we learn when we're little kids, right. It's better to say nothing if you can't say anything nice. It's better to say nothing at all. You should extrapolate that. Maybe a little bit. and, so. Well, that's a that. Father Mike. That's a great segway.

00;27;54;26 - 00;28;28;05
Joshua Hoffert
You're talking about the church as a place of healing, and that's where that's where Mary and I, you know, we're trying to we're we're, you know, in our in our, you know, we've got this kind of concept that floats around in our contemporary Christian circles where people see the church as kind of a militant remnant. you know, they'll use the term like, where the warrior bride and then that comes across as a there's a culture fight.

00;28;28;05 - 00;28;35;09
Joshua Hoffert
We're fighting for political position. We need it. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So we get that going.

00;28;35;11 - 00;28;42;23
Father Michael Gillis
My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight exactly.

00;28;42;26 - 00;28;43;10
Joshua Hoffert
There.

00;28;43;12 - 00;28;47;02
Father Michael Gillis
As it is. My kingdom is not of this world.

00;28;47;03 - 00;28;51;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. I love that we got you a little animated right there. Yeah.

00;28;51;24 - 00;29;18;02
Father Michael Gillis
you know what? I, to tell you the truth, I know. Oh, gosh. I got invited to say the prayer at the, at a certain political rally, and I just sort of have this obedience before God that if someone asks me to do something, I say, yes, unless there's a really good reason to not.

00;29;18;04 - 00;29;18;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;29;18;22 - 00;29;20;13
Murray Dueck
Oh, this is really good to know.

00;29;20;15 - 00;29;31;00
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah. And, so Lord have mercy, right? Yeah. and, I mean, this is how I end up here, but.

00;29;31;02 - 00;29;33;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah. It's good. It's exactly.

00;29;33;10 - 00;29;37;05
Joshua Hoffert
It's just a tacit admission. It's an admission as to why.

00;29;37;07 - 00;29;40;19
Father Michael Gillis
Pardon me. I'm doing this because Maria asked me to do it.

00;29;40;20 - 00;29;41;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;29;41;12 - 00;30;21;18
Father Michael Gillis
And and this is my obedience before God. If I'm asked to do something, I do. I do it. So long as there's not a really good reason not to, ero anyway, so. Oh. So I went and said this prayer. it was, it was just this whole thinking that what happens in the United States, what happens in Israel is a manifestation of what the Holy Spirit is doing in the world today.

00;30;21;29 - 00;30;56;10
Father Michael Gillis
I I'm sorry. This, this is the there is a new Israel. Yeah, there is a right, new people of God. Read the book of Hebrews. Right. There is a new nation called by his name. My kingdom is not of this world. And so when we come to the church, it's not so that we can make a difference in this world.

00;30;56;13 - 00;31;12;25
Father Michael Gillis
We come to the church so that we can repent and be repenting, learn to live a reaping lifestyle so that we might actually be filled with the Holy Spirit.

00;31;13;26 - 00;31;17;09
Murray Dueck
Well, that's we should just right there, unpack all of that.

00;31;17;11 - 00;31;18;15
Father Michael Gillis
Oh.

00;31;19;20 - 00;31;34;26
Murray Dueck
I know, yeah. because that that's thinking like. Because you know what? What Protestants out there are going to think are charismatics. But I repented when I came into the church, you know, I, I did my forest road spiritual laws, and now I got to get to work, like I said.

00;31;34;26 - 00;31;36;12
Joshua Hoffert
The sinner's prayer. Right?

00;31;36;14 - 00;31;38;24
Murray Dueck
Why do I need to keep repenting? Yeah, like.

00;31;38;29 - 00;31;42;25
Joshua Hoffert
God forgive us. As he removes his name, he forgets it.

00;31;42;27 - 00;32;03;20
Father Michael Gillis
Yes. Exactly. Right. So, okay, this is the problem. The way Christian theology developed in the Latin speaking world. Oh, right. So the what we generally call Western Christianity.

00;32;03;23 - 00;32;04;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;32;04;12 - 00;32;40;19
Father Michael Gillis
And this is a tendency it's not everybody, it's not all the time. it's not everywhere, but it clearly is an obvious tendency. Some people have argued it has to do with the structure of the Latin language itself. Oh, very. All right. I, I'm, I'm not going to go there. but it was this tendency in the West to define so much in legal language.

00;32;40;21 - 00;33;16;03
Father Michael Gillis
Right. What I call language right. And this came to be applied to theology largely through a certain way of reading. Augustine of Hippo. Right. not that that was the only way you could read Augustine, but a certain way of reading Augustine, who had terrible Greek and mistranslated some some passages, which is part of what influenced him.

00;33;17;16 - 00;34;11;21
Father Michael Gillis
then you you got a scholastic movement that tried to apply Aristotle Italian logic to this very sort of legal way of understanding salvation, right? That, and, and then you had the Renaissance and then you had, the Reformation, and you had, right, the enlightenment. And each of these represents a kind of paradigm shift, a way of a new and different way of looking at how how you get saved, what the church is, what our relationship with God is, what the Christian problem is, right?

00;34;11;21 - 00;34;55;07
Father Michael Gillis
The human problem is, each it's it's a paradigm shift, right? A new set of glasses. Okay. The church in the East, the Greek speaking church was basically conquered by the Muslims. And so it didn't go through all of these shifts and changes, right. And it preserved a more ancient way of thinking about salvation. And in the ancient church, salvation was not a transaction where, you know, oh, God has this problem.

00;34;55;07 - 00;35;27;08
Father Michael Gillis
He wants to forgive us, but he can't, which is a real dangerous thing to say, that oh, God, can't do something as though God is somehow limited. By what? Something bigger than him. Some sense of justice that's controlling God. No no no no no no. Human beings had a problem. Human beings had a problem. And God solved this problem by sending his son, right?

00;35;27;11 - 00;36;05;18
Father Michael Gillis
Not mean we can use ransom in debt language. That's fine. But but it's also that's actually one of the, minority ways the Scripture talks about how God solves our relationship. Long. It is it is a metaphor used in Scripture. Right. But the dominant metaphor is familiar, right? It's familiar. We are adopted. We are children of God.

00;36;05;20 - 00;36;11;08
Father Michael Gillis
I'm right. We are the bride of God, right?

00;36;11;11 - 00;36;12;00
Murray Dueck
Interesting.

00;36;12;01 - 00;36;35;16
Father Michael Gillis
Even the Mother of God in the sense that we give birth to children of God. Right? Saint Paul uses that kind of language, right? I struggle until Christ be born in me. Yeah, in me and in you. Right. It's a it's a familial metaphor which is dominant throughout Scripture.

00;36;35;18 - 00;36;46;01
Murray Dueck
Because, you know, that's that's, you know, my brain is tweaking here a little bit because. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what's going on. Right? That great father Mike knows me well enough.

00;36;46;07 - 00;36;48;27
Joshua Hoffert
Let's Murray's inside brain.

00;36;48;29 - 00;37;08;00
Murray Dueck
I've always taken those two concepts, of the familial nature of God. That's what God does through you in the church. But we're talking about, you know, you know, ransom theology or. Yeah, but but that's what Christ does on the cross, that these two things are separate. One is birthed out of the other.

00;37;08;03 - 00;37;49;25
Father Michael Gillis
Well, they're not separate because remember, we're talking about God here. Any human language we use can be nothing more than metaphor. Right. Vaguely pointing at something. It it's not the mechanism. And this is the mistake. The mistake has been that unfortunately in some kinds of the Western Latin for Western theology, which would include probably all Protestant because that came out of it.

00;37;49;25 - 00;37;50;01
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah.

00;37;50;07 - 00;37;53;05
Murray Dueck
Good. Good, stable.

00;37;53;08 - 00;38;04;06
Father Michael Gillis
The tendency is to try to pick the best metaphor and understand it as a mechanism.

00;38;04;08 - 00;38;10;26
Murray Dueck
Yes. And that's exactly what I got. Caught it right there. So this is this is helpful. Yeah. Keep going.

00;38;10;28 - 00;39;01;18
Father Michael Gillis
Okay. So just as if I had been you know, I grew up in foster home. So I actually have some I, some personal experience. Let's talk about this. Even if you are adopted into a family or even if you are married into a family, there is a real long process of acculturation. Right, right. So especially when we look at how the prophets of the Old Testament understood this, God, God sees this abandoned baby covered with blood, I don't remember, I think it's Ezekiel, but I don't remember which prophet it is.

00;39;01;18 - 00;39;35;09
Father Michael Gillis
Maybe it's Isaiah, one of the major prophets. and he loves this baby and he adopts it. Ezekiel 16. Yeah. Raises it to become his bride. So there's this whole process. So you might say, well, yeah, there is sort of, initial moment where he takes. Right. Okay. And if we wanted to use the, the Western, you know, moment of being saved language.

00;39;35;11 - 00;40;07;21
Father Michael Gillis
Okay. Right. And this is what the traditional church would equate with baptism. That's one moment. Right. If we need to name a moment, that's the moment. but there is now the whole washing, right. You're covered with blood. Did you see this baby has to be washed. This baby has to be trained. This baby has to. And then when she's ready for love, God is going to unite himself.

00;40;07;25 - 00;40;51;03
Father Michael Gillis
Except she starts hollering after flesh. And now God doesn't abandon her. But God now, like the whole, prophet Isaiah story, right? God goes and buys her back and and, you know, there's this whole process. So when we talk about a lifestyle of repentance, we're we're talking about this recognition that this journey from the moment I am first sort of found by God or I find God or God finds me.

00;40;51;03 - 00;41;26;27
Father Michael Gillis
And Saint Paul uses both language right. Well, you know where I find God and God finds me to the bridal chamber to, you know, the eschatological image of the bride of Christ, richly adorned, you know, this image that we're called to, this relationship we're called to. There's a lot of washing and repenting and, and and I got to stop lusting after him.

00;41;27;00 - 00;41;58;13
Father Michael Gillis
The fish pots of Egypt and all of this stuff that I. I'm continually, on this journey through the desert to, and being purified along the way and offering strange fire and getting and rebuked for it and, what an idiot. Forgive me. And, and and there's this whole journey. And that's what the church is.

00;41;58;13 - 00;42;35;27
Father Michael Gillis
The church is made up of what we call it a divine human institution. It is divine in that it has the word of life. It carries the word of life, it the the liturgies, the the teachings, the Scripture, the holiness. It's it's all here and it's human. It's a divine human institution in that it's full of very sick people, some of whom are trying hard to repent, some of whom not so much.

00;42;36;00 - 00;42;50;13
Father Michael Gillis
And so you gotta pay attention. You can't just like, say, just because someone has a beard and wears a cassock. I mean that, that person is worthy of your trust.

00;42;50;15 - 00;42;51;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;42;52;06 - 00;43;23;18
Father Michael Gillis
but isn't that true of any Christian organization? Yeah, I guess because, I mean, how many people do we have to see stand up and on TV or whatever? Heal the sick, prophesy, knock people down, do all kinds of wild, crazy, I might even say magical. Ooh, yeah. Because two days later they're found sleeping with their secretary, right?

00;43;23;20 - 00;43;28;19
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah. There's something there's something really, really sick about that.

00;43;28;22 - 00;43;49;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. You know what I think, father Mike? That was a passion. If this is a good example. So, everybody, the passions, here would be lust in greed and, you know, carnality and anger and the passions that, you know, when I, when I think about.

00;43;49;28 - 00;44;07;09
Murray Dueck
People like, I'm having a pretty good person go through my mind, which maybe best not to say names, but but when I think about people who who are very passionate for God, let's use that term, because that's what we talk about in the church. That passionate for God and passionate for God. I'm passionate for the lost, that passion for the kingdom.

00;44;07;09 - 00;44;35;17
Murray Dueck
I'm, you know, and I think sometimes that word may not be as far off from what they would think as when the fathers talk about passion, because when you're a very passionate person and you got lots of fire and you're hungry for all these things, I want to see people heal. I want to see the kingdom come. I want to see, Christ's kingdom on earth, all those things you're passionate about it, that unfortunately, that passion in our culture is considered a holy thing, you know, do not be without zeal.

00;44;35;17 - 00;44;58;05
Murray Dueck
You know, that's how we would would interpret that, be zealous to prophesy, you know, we would we would consider that zeal. But I think what actually happens is like, if, if you have this gift and everybody loves you and the power of God is flowing and people are getting killed and you're got fever, or what happens when you don't have fever and money start coming in.

00;44;58;07 - 00;45;27;29
Murray Dueck
And, maybe people aren't getting healed like they used to, or everybody's going to John's church down the road, but you're still this passionate person. But now it ain't working. And suddenly the secretary of sees you is the man you used to be, and she believes in you. well, that passionate, it's going to go somewhere. Yeah. And and since we think that's a holy thing rather than something to be, you know, dead to right, we get ourselves in all kinds of trouble.

00;45;27;29 - 00;45;47;08
Murray Dueck
I think that's partly what it is. We've considered something to be very holy in the charismatic church that instead is really a fleshly thing, and we use it to motivate ourselves. And, you know, I this is back to a monessen statement were like, hey, you know, better for you to stay in the desert until right until all this stuff is dealt with and your soul is healed.

00;45;47;15 - 00;45;56;16
Murray Dueck
But I think that's part of the problem in in our charismatic church, where we're putting people in, in the ministry with gifting that is really, truly gifting. You know, we could argue that.

00;45;56;18 - 00;45;59;13
Father Michael Gillis
But yeah, it may indeed be. I'm not.

00;45;59;20 - 00;46;02;28
Murray Dueck
But their souls are not healed. And therefore look what happens.

00;46;03;00 - 00;46;04;08
Father Michael Gillis
The problem. Right? Yeah.

00;46;04;11 - 00;46;06;13
Murray Dueck
Because there hasn't been authenticity.

00;46;06;14 - 00;46;19;07
Father Michael Gillis
People I often have to say to people, if you feel strongly about something, beware. right.

00;46;19;10 - 00;46;20;11
Murray Dueck
Okay, let's unpack that.

00;46;20;15 - 00;46;20;27
Father Michael Gillis
Okay.

00;46;21;02 - 00;46;28;10
Murray Dueck
So then our culture is feeling strongly about I mean, there's, you know, there's, Anyway, I mean.

00;46;28;13 - 00;46;58;08
Father Michael Gillis
Of it may be good. It may, but the problem is it's tied up in your feelings. So the church fathers talk about. And we'll really simplify this sort of three layers if we start with our innermost being, our heart. Yeah. The heart is who we really are. Now, I'm not using heart in the sense of the center of your emotions.

00;46;58;10 - 00;47;01;20
Father Michael Gillis
I'm using heart as the center of your being.

00;47;01;25 - 00;47;04;28
Murray Dueck
So nucs, which I think we've talked about a little bit. How have we.

00;47;04;28 - 00;47;05;29
Father Michael Gillis
Not got news.

00;47;06;03 - 00;47;07;21
Murray Dueck
Know. Oh, okay. Keep going.

00;47;07;23 - 00;47;46;25
Father Michael Gillis
Right. The first layer of consciousness around that is the news. Oh sometimes referred to as the eyes of the heart. That is the ability of for us to perceive what's happening in our heart. But this, this layer is, is mysterious because our heart speaks the language of heaven, which is silence. Right? Oh, the language of heaven isn't English or Russian or Greek or Hebrew.

00;47;46;27 - 00;47;48;28
Father Michael Gillis
The language of heaven is silence.

00;47;49;06 - 00;47;51;17
Murray Dueck
You in? I thought it was German.

00;47;51;19 - 00;48;25;20
Father Michael Gillis
Right? I know God speaks German, but, Okay. The next layer is the we might call the rational layer, the layer where we like processed mathematics. And this is layer of language and logic. Okay. The next layer out is the sensual layer of perception, right? Where, you know, when I touch something, it's not my finger that's actually feeling it.

00;48;25;23 - 00;49;14;15
Father Michael Gillis
It's my mind that is perceiving and processing it. And we would call that the most outward layer. All right. And when that outermost layer is leading us, that's what Saint Paul calls the flesh. The flesh is. So it's not the body. Right. So there's a distinction to a body is not bad. It's just there right. But when we are led by the flesh, that is a sensual aspect of our perception, the part of our perception that is connected to our five senses, our feelings.

00;49;14;17 - 00;49;20;22
Father Michael Gillis
I feel happy, I feel sad, I feel this, I find it. All of those things are real.

00;49;20;24 - 00;49;21;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.

00;49;21;11 - 00;49;32;26
Father Michael Gillis
But if they are leading you, that is what Saint Paul calls the flesh. Because we're supposed to be led by the spirit.

00;49;32;29 - 00;49;34;11
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;49;34;14 - 00;49;57;15
Father Michael Gillis
In my experience. And maybe it's changed since I was there 20, 30 years in the 30 years ago. My goodness. So much of my charismatic Pentecostal experience was I felt this, I felt this, I feel God, I feel, oh, I can feel, I can feel, I can feel and,

00;49;57;18 - 00;49;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
That's still there.

00;49;58;25 - 00;50;10;25
Father Michael Gillis
And the Orthodox fathers say, beware of that. It is so easy to be deceived. It is so easy, right?

00;50;10;28 - 00;50;13;15
Murray Dueck
Because it hooks into that sensual layer there.

00;50;13;16 - 00;51;11;11
Father Michael Gillis
Right? It's hooked into that sensual layer so that, you know, if I don't like someone or I'm afraid of something, and then suddenly I feel this. But how much of that is, you know, let's say it started as 100% from God. but by the time it got through my noetic perception and got translated into language at the next level, and then inner acted with my feelings, how much of my own fear or anger or desire right when I was I learned this if I say all by myself, what I meant by that was not by reading a book, but the Holy Spirit, I believe, helped me when I was very young, I noticed that

00;51;11;11 - 00;51;55;25
Father Michael Gillis
I often felt that I had a word for beautiful young ladies. yeah. And it felt so real. Yeah. And sometimes I would share the word and and it just was like, oh, you know, that's so helpful. So helpful to me. But afterwards I would notice a lingering feeling of desire, lust of design. And by the time I was in my late 20s, I just made a rule for myself, I will not prophesy over young women at all.

00;51;55;28 - 00;51;57;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;51;57;13 - 00;52;19;02
Father Michael Gillis
But what if, what if, what if you're the one with the word for God for them and they would go to hell if they don't hear it, then God will have to give the word to someone else, because I'll go to hell if I, down this road, I'm the weak one and God is able to save. I'm not the Savior.

00;52;19;05 - 00;52;23;00
Father Michael Gillis
Jesus is the Savior right now.

00;52;23;00 - 00;52;32;25
Murray Dueck
Are we talking possibly here? Basically, biblically speaking, Paul's example of why he got the thorn in the flesh?

00;52;33;01 - 00;52;37;03
Father Michael Gillis
Yes, exactly.

00;52;37;06 - 00;52;55;12
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Because he starts out I mean, I mean, again, I always read it wrong. I mean, we're again, we're talking about everybody about why do we need to repent, you know, where is that scripturally? So I mean, Paul in Philippians says, you know, I was you know, Gamaliel was my you know, professor. And I considered all the things lost that I may gain Christ.

00;52;55;12 - 00;53;13;08
Murray Dueck
So I'll just going to give this a quick. And then father Mike, if you don't mind, you know, giving it some context, but but everyone we read that, I've lost it all that I may know. Christ, the fellowship of his suffering, the power of his resurrection. that that I may know him. And it says the word no.

00;53;13;08 - 00;53;33;00
Murray Dueck
When some form about five times. And then it goes on to say, not that I've already attained it, which is kind of important, because that's what we would call repentance here. but I press on to the higher calling and see, I always interpreted that father Mike as higher calling. Is your vision what you should be doing? And I didn't realize from the passage, it's about who you know.

00;53;33;02 - 00;53;34;10
Murray Dueck
You know, this is going.

00;53;34;10 - 00;53;35;02
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah.

00;53;35;05 - 00;53;37;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And I didn't know that. You can tell.

00;53;37;17 - 00;54;17;22
Father Michael Gillis
Me yet again, not knowing on that. one of the things that's affected evangelicalism was that it got its birth during the modern period, strongly influenced by the romantic movement. so if you look at a lot of the early evangelical, not evangelical first products, just the early hymns of the revivalists, the Second Great Awakening, I go to the garden alone while the dew is still on the roses.

00;54;17;29 - 00;55;14;01
Father Michael Gillis
And the voice. This was a romantic song that then got, religious words added to it. And we still, at least in the evangelical charismatic world, this is still how we approach Jesus with this romantic feeling. I, oh, I feel this. And again, it's I'm not saying that Jesus isn't there at all. I'm saying we are experiencing this, experiencing this at the most possible superficial level, at a level that we are easily, easily deceived because there's this warm, fuzzy feeling I feel about Jesus.

00;55;14;03 - 00;55;36;08
Father Michael Gillis
I also have that same warm, fuzzy feeling about my golden retriever puppy. Right? It's wait a minute. There's. And so the fathers teach us that we have to learn to quiet.

00;55;36;10 - 00;55;41;07
Murray Dueck
So we're talking. Let's go. We're going down a level. Right. And if we're going down to that level of life.

00;55;41;10 - 00;56;02;20
Father Michael Gillis
And, and so at this next level, we get things like the Ignatian exercises, right. Where. Yes. or or contemplation, where we're going to think about this. so it's, we're now a deeper level. We're going to, lectio divina, right.

00;56;03;03 - 00;56;03;25
Murray Dueck
examine.

00;56;03;28 - 00;56;44;08
Father Michael Gillis
Scripture, imagining. oh, you know, Jesus, at that moment when I was hurt and he's there with me or. Right. So all these things that take place, a lot of theology, as it's understood in the West, takes place on this level. If this, then that. If the Scripture says this, then it must imply that. So it's at this the second level of logic, language, images, not the language of feeling.

00;56;44;15 - 00;57;03;10
Father Michael Gillis
Now that those images may result in feelings right. But again, you're it's the feelings coming from the language, the words, the images. Right. So we're getting closer to a more appropriate way.

00;57;03;19 - 00;57;15;25
Murray Dueck
we're kind of living inside out now. You could say, like we're pondering Scripture. We're picturing as we're with Christ and then this is producing something rather than, looking at external things that like.

00;57;15;25 - 00;57;25;22
Father Michael Gillis
Right, or how I feel, how I. Yeah, yeah, that how I feel is easily deceives me. Yeah. Right. How can I.

00;57;25;22 - 00;57;27;02
Murray Dueck
Give you an example of,

00;57;27;05 - 00;57;28;22
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, wait wait, wait.

00;57;28;24 - 00;57;29;07
Murray Dueck
I'm sorry.

00;57;29;07 - 00;57;32;07
Joshua Hoffert
I have to ask a question first. Yeah, sure. Please do.

00;57;32;08 - 00;57;34;09
Murray Dueck
I think I'm taking all your time and that. Yes.

00;57;34;10 - 00;57;57;00
Joshua Hoffert
No, no, no, this is great. I'm thinking I'm. I'm actually diagraming things as brother Mike's talking because I'm trying to understand it. So the eyes of the heart. Yeah. Because you're talking about going to layers deeper from the sensual to the rational. Ignatian exercises, Lectio divina, this kind of stuff serves to calm and retrain the rational aspect. Right.

00;57;57;00 - 00;58;02;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's. Yeah, that that maybe that's a way of saying that. So the eyes of the heart, I do the eyes.

00;58;03;03 - 00;58;04;14
Father Michael Gillis
I know you haven't gotten there yet.

00;58;04;15 - 00;58;24;16
Joshua Hoffert
I know we haven't gotten there. I know we haven't gotten there. So I think this is my question. And maybe, maybe you'll get there. I, I this seems like the most basic question and it's probably foolish, but no, I'm going I think I misunderstood this. Do the eyes of the heart look in or out?

00;58;24;18 - 00;58;27;18
Father Michael Gillis
The eyes are the heart. Look in.

00;58;27;20 - 00;58;28;22
Murray Dueck
But the problem is. And that's.

00;58;28;29 - 00;58;31;25
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. That's mind blowing.

00;58;31;28 - 00;58;34;27
Murray Dueck
Because I think the problem in our culture, Mark.

00;58;34;27 - 00;58;43;21
Father Michael Gillis
Oh, is the gateway to the universe. The kingdom of heaven is within you. The kingdom of heaven is within you now.

00;58;43;21 - 00;58;46;27
Joshua Hoffert
Oh my goodness, you're breaking my brain again.

00;58;46;28 - 00;58;49;08
Father Michael Gillis
Oh dear God, you're breaking.

00;58;49;08 - 00;58;51;20
Joshua Hoffert
My brain again.

00;58;51;22 - 00;58;57;04
Murray Dueck
Gateway to the universe. Like one of the desert father says, inside of you is another universe.

00;58;57;05 - 00;58;57;26
Father Michael Gillis
Exactly.

00;58;58;02 - 00;58;59;22
Joshua Hoffert
Desert mother, that's almost Sarah.

00;58;59;29 - 00;59;00;05
Murray Dueck
Oh.

00;59;00;05 - 00;59;04;05
Joshua Hoffert
Is it? You get the gender right. You know you're going to get lambasted if you don't.

00;59;04;07 - 00;59;19;10
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah, I but okay. She she's she's just saying with everybody else says right. Christ dwells within you by faith. Christ in you, the hope of glory.

00;59;19;12 - 00;59;19;27
Joshua Hoffert
This is.

00;59;20;00 - 00;59;20;15
Murray Dueck
Okay.

00;59;20;17 - 00;59;25;14
Joshua Hoffert
This is the eyes of the heart. Look in. Who would have thought?

00;59;25;17 - 00;59;27;22
Murray Dueck
Well, that makes sense of contemplative prayer, doesn't it?

00;59;27;25 - 00;59;30;18
Joshua Hoffert
Everything makes it. Everything because it does is the.

00;59;30;18 - 00;59;31;04
Father Michael Gillis
Thing that makes.

00;59;31;04 - 00;59;34;00
Joshua Hoffert
The most sense in the world.

00;59;34;03 - 00;59;55;19
Murray Dueck
Okay, I gotta ask this question because this will help, I think. I think it might make it worse. Okay. So, so in our charismatic tradition, John Wimber come Holy Spirit. Right. So we're, we're, we're attempting to go, what is the Spirit of God on O in worship. And you know, and we could disagree. That's all emotion.

00;59;55;19 - 01;00;17;06
Murray Dueck
But I would say there is something of, of the presence of God there. So I'll, I'll give you kind of an example, not a positive fluffy example, but of the news functioning externally with discernment. But it's still going through my rational mind and then it's still affecting my emotions because it's pointing outwards if we want it. You know, it's.

01;00;17;07 - 01;00;18;10
Father Michael Gillis
Yes, of course.

01;00;18;10 - 01;00;39;28
Murray Dueck
So, I have a gout. Years ago, a great gout. I actually was, you met her at my wedding? Actually, she was, Jay's, bridesmaid, back at that time. So she was in class at this time, and she, And, she wanted to get together and, you know, student of mine, and I'm like, okay, why does she want to need a phone call tomorrow?

01;00;39;28 - 01;00;58;19
Murray Dueck
What is this all about? And for some weird reason, I felt all this anger. Like she was really mad at me, and she, you know, I didn't know her to be an angry person, but, boy, it bothered me. I mean, I was up, it was so visceral. I was probably up till two in the morning just praying until I felt it go, I take it.

01;00;58;19 - 01;01;16;08
Murray Dueck
Why is she so angry at me? You know what's going on, you know? And then one night, what we called the next day and she called me, she started crying. She goes, you know what? I don't know what's happening. I've just been so angry. And I'm not an angry person. And I'm like, oh my goodness. I wasn't picking up what she was thinking about me.

01;01;16;11 - 01;01;36;04
Murray Dueck
I was picking up how the enemy was trying to attack her or get her to come at me. That wasn't her at all. But then it caused me fear because I discerned that. And then I had to make her reaction a physical response to it. What am I going to do about this? You know, and then I made a judgment about her and where she was at.

01;01;36;06 - 01;02;02;03
Murray Dueck
So what I discerned was kind of correct. But my application and my interpretation were completely wrong. And and because it has to go through all those layers. So even though I discerned something, how how what I took it to mean, how it affected my life and what I was going to do about it were completely off. And because my gifting was focusing outward, I would suggest rather than just sitting peacefully abiding with Christ.

01;02;02;13 - 01;02;09;24
Murray Dueck
although that's what I was trying to do. I was trying not to be anger as trying to let it go, trying to believe she was a good person. But does that make sense?

01;02;09;25 - 01;02;12;06
Father Michael Gillis
Well, okay.

01;02;12;09 - 01;02;14;06
Murray Dueck
I knew that was going to get me in trouble.

01;02;14;06 - 01;02;38;05
Father Michael Gillis
Sharing my, because okay, so let's do some more, Orthodox. Okay. Let's keep going. Okay. So. This inner layer, I'm going to go and we're going to go back to the liturgy or the, the. But I want to finish the news is that the.

01;02;38;05 - 01;02;39;23
Joshua Hoffert
Rational layer, the, the logos.

01;02;39;29 - 01;02;43;05
Father Michael Gillis
That logi take place in that rational layer. Okay.

01;02;43;07 - 01;02;50;27
Murray Dueck
Just so you're talking, look, it's more like what I just shared about this lady. Yes. Probably in anger. Okay, okay. I know where God's going to go.

01;02;50;27 - 01;03;18;27
Father Michael Gillis
Okay, okay. But so we've gone from the sensual layer of our perception to the intellectual, not intellectual. That's not the best word. The rational layer of our perception. Yeah. And then the innermost, which is sometimes translated, intellect. But that's really misleading. Yeah. Well, it's better to just go with the Greek word the new. So the noetic. Oh yes.

01;03;18;27 - 01;03;35;08
Father Michael Gillis
Layer. Now this layer, remember that rational layer is language. So this inner layer is without language. It's without image.

01;03;35;10 - 01;03;37;02
Murray Dueck
It is interesting.

01;03;37;02 - 01;03;41;11
Father Michael Gillis
Okay. It is just being with God.

01;03;41;11 - 01;03;49;08
Murray Dueck
It's so when it says eyes of the heart then. How does that fit there. Because it looks like it's putting those two together.

01;03;49;13 - 01;03;57;07
Father Michael Gillis
Yes. No it is eyes in the sense of perception, not in the sense of images.

01;03;57;09 - 01;03;58;04
Murray Dueck
Got it, got it.

01;03;58;09 - 01;04;01;10
Father Michael Gillis
That it is that part that perceives so.

01;04;01;10 - 01;04;04;08
Murray Dueck
It's a noetic knowing. So you might noetic knowing.

01;04;04;08 - 01;04;16;06
Father Michael Gillis
Yes. Of course. Yeah. and. So when we die.

01;04;16;09 - 01;04;23;12
Father Michael Gillis
We lose the sensual because we're separated from our body.

01;04;23;14 - 01;04;51;21
Father Michael Gillis
The rational dies away and we're left with that quiet stillness, which will be quite terrifying for people who have not been used to it. Which is why we pray for the departed real intensely for the first 40 days. okay, so there's this. I'm sorry. I shouldn't even brought that up because it's of, oh.

01;04;51;21 - 01;04;55;04
Murray Dueck
That's another group of, yes, volunteers for another podcast. Father Murray.

01;04;55;06 - 01;05;01;15
Father Michael Gillis
Right. But let's. So, so let's talk about thoughts for a minute, okay?

01;05;01;16 - 01;05;02;25
Murray Dueck
Yes. Okay.

01;05;02;28 - 01;05;41;13
Father Michael Gillis
Where do our thoughts come from. So that's now the thoughts can come from the noetic perception. All right. They can come from God. But if we're not used to attending to that still quiet right. The silence. If we're not used to attending to that often we don't perceive divine thoughts until they appear as words. Logi right. As little words.

01;05;41;13 - 01;06;09;28
Father Michael Gillis
That's the word logi, right. And plural. luggage boy. Right. Little, little thoughts. Right. but by the time they appear in our mind as little thoughts. We as they could be from God, our guardian angel, our demons, our memories, and could come from all sorts of places.

01;06;09;28 - 01;06;13;09
Murray Dueck
Or even what we're discerning. Or from other people. Which would be like Gisborne.

01;06;13;10 - 01;06;19;04
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah, exactly. They can come from us. Well, again, let's not go there. Okay?

01;06;19;04 - 01;06;21;13
Murray Dueck
Okay. Technical. Yes. That is a whole book right there.

01;06;21;13 - 01;07;10;02
Father Michael Gillis
Yeah, but the point is that, by the time this thought in my mind has been able to be formed in terms of words or concepts, it's already like, where is this coming from? I'm not sure. Right. Sorry. We've had three calls since we've been, So, and then if for people who are particularly dull like me.

01;07;10;04 - 01;07;46;06
Father Michael Gillis
Okay, sometimes I don't even perceive the little gizmo until I feel it, I feel angry, and then I have to think, what am I angry about? Right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. or, whatever, whatever the, the the envy or whatever the thing, thing is. So we have to. This is why the church teaches us to pray in certain ways.

01;07;46;08 - 01;08;26;05
Father Michael Gillis
Right? It's really important to memorize your prayers, because once you've memorized the prayer, then it's just enough that the rational part of your mind can, like, have something to do. But you don't have to pay much attention to it. You can pay attention to something quieter, more still. Right? This is why we have prayer ropes right where we say the Jesus prayer I gives my my body is doing something, my rational part of my mind, but it's minimal.

01;08;26;05 - 01;08;57;14
Father Michael Gillis
I don't really have to focus on it. And then what happens? Very seldom for me, and often very briefly, I kind of enter into a quiet stillness where there are no more words. I'm right there, and it's in that stillness that I am actually in what we would say, in the presence of God. That's not too right.

01;08;57;20 - 01;09;20;17
Father Michael Gillis
We're always in the presence of God. Where is God? Not right there is us. There is no spot where God is not, but rather I'm the most aware of his presence. I'm the most, because I'm in that place of quiet, not distracted by concepts and. Right.

01;09;20;19 - 01;09;22;17
Murray Dueck
But so be still and know that I am God.

01;09;22;22 - 01;09;24;16
Father Michael Gillis
Be still and know that I. That's right.

01;09;24;19 - 01;09;30;03
Murray Dueck
A little hook there for all the evangelicals out there like, hey you you do know that verse? Okay, let's give God.

01;09;30;05 - 01;10;06;04
Father Michael Gillis
But you know you know I things also move out from there. Right. But there's a kind of peace, a kind of stillness, that you maintain that becomes the guard or the ruler. So let the peace of God rule in your hearts, right now. There's this deeper stillness or peace that helps me discern whether is this thought from God or not.

01;10;06;07 - 01;10;36;27
Father Michael Gillis
Right? Is it destroying that peace, or is it, am I sitting with this peace and this thought so and then that the more outer layer feelings right. You know, it's possible to have a really crappy feeling and still be in perfect peace with God. Wow. Yeah. It doesn't have to overwhelm you. It's like, oh I'm really sad about this.

01;10;36;27 - 01;11;21;14
Father Michael Gillis
I'm this is a really sad situation. I mean I'm a priest, I'm a pastor. I hear people's confessions. Most people well not most everybody. Everybody I know has a really crappy, painful life. there's some beautiful parts. There's some good parts. But everybody is suffering a lot all the time. And relationships, fears, struggles. And it's not that they don't have beautiful moments and good moments and good, you know, good aspects, but but, you know, when people open up with you, the person you thought who's doing the best, right?

01;11;21;14 - 01;11;32;15
Father Michael Gillis
They got the best life, they got the best this they got the best family, the best. And then they open up and you realize they're in deep pain.

01;11;32;17 - 01;11;34;02
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;11;34;05 - 01;12;02;17
Father Michael Gillis
And and my job, part of my job is to carry that is to share it, to take it on to myself. Yeah. Offer it to God. But if I'm not at peace, if I'm not healed, or at least down the road to being healed, then it overwhelms me. It. I can't bear other people's burdens. I can't really weep with those who weep.

01;12;04;03 - 01;12;07;29
Father Michael Gillis
Right. Or rejoice with those who rejoice.

01;12;08;01 - 01;12;22;03
Joshua Hoffert
But I have, I I one, just one comment on that I read said recently that, the cost of life is death. Yes. Right. And that you can just make.

01;12;22;05 - 01;12;23;08
Father Michael Gillis
One way out of this.

01;12;23;09 - 01;12;26;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. I can just hear that acutely. And what.

01;12;26;06 - 01;12;31;22
Joshua Hoffert
You're saying.

01;12;31;24 - 01;12;39;07
Joshua Hoffert
To.

01;12;39;10 - 01;12;40;16
Joshua Hoffert
You you.