The Eyes of the Heart and the Nous: Christian Maturity from an Orthodox Perspective, an interview with Fr Michael Gillis (Part 2)

In part 2 of Josh and Murray's interview with Fr Michael Gillis, Fr Mike shares about the eyes of the heart and dives into the layers of the human being. What marks the difference between how the Orthodox Church views the process of maturity and how the evangelical church views maturity? Join the guys as they dive in!

For more about Father Michael Gillis, visit: https://www.holynativitychurch.ca/

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

00;00;15;00 - 00;00;20;07
Speaker 1
Do you.

00;00;20;09 - 00;00;40;07
Speaker 1
I can a Saint Paul says make up in myself what is lacking in the suffering of Christ. And we ask one Orthodox theology professor what could possibly go lacking in the suffering? Christ. Oh, it is up to us more participants.

00;00;40;09 - 00;00;58;07
Speaker 2
Oh! oh. Wow. That's.

00;00;59;14 - 00;01;20;20
Speaker 3
But we're okay. So with that said, here's I'm just trying to sexualize this for myself as you're explaining it. And so I'm going to try and how I understand that you can correct this. And I think I'm getting it. So, we've got the sensual perception layer which is our outermost self.

00;01;20;26 - 00;01;21;10
Speaker 1
Right.

00;01;21;11 - 00;01;41;25
Speaker 3
We've got another layer which is our rational self. Where is the the place where conscious thought tends to happen or thoughts impinge themselves upon our consciousness. And those thoughts can come from the sexual or sensual. Sexual can come from the sexual layer as well, but from the sensual layer, the perception all over the place. And they can come from all over the place.

00;01;41;25 - 00;02;10;26
Speaker 3
Yes. And so, so I'm, I am, I am impressed with thoughts isn't so much my rational layer in the sense that I can think rationally. It's the sense that I can, be moved rationally by thoughts and and so would I be right then in saying, I think I'm getting that right? I that's that makes sense, because I'm also thinking through, you know, watchmen NE spirit soul, body and how you know.

00;02;10;26 - 00;02;29;22
Speaker 3
So anyway, I'm really tracking with you, father Mike, in the sense of that I'm not in the sense of I'm comparing it because I think there's a lot of limitations to that, that, the predominant way that our, our charismatic circles have been influenced by Watchmen and what he says in that in the making of a human, this makes a lot more sense.

00;02;29;28 - 00;02;47;23
Speaker 3
So, so then would I, could I say that in in the news as the eyes of the heart that, well, the eyes of the heart look in to see God, the universe to see the kingdom.

00;02;47;26 - 00;02;49;18
Speaker 1
And see is a metaphor here. Yeah.

00;02;49;18 - 00;03;19;04
Speaker 3
And see as a metaphor. Yeah. Not not. Yeah. Not see in the sense of I can it's like Isaiah saying I saw the Lord. Yeah. He never says what he looks like. Right. I saw him, but everything changed when I saw him. Yeah, yeah. And and so. But could you say with the it's a noose as the eyes of the heart, if you live predominantly on that sensual perception layer or that rational layer, do the eyes look outward?

00;03;19;05 - 00;03;21;11
Speaker 3
Are they taken away from that inner gaze?

00;03;21;11 - 00;03;23;02
Speaker 1
So no.

00;03;23;02 - 00;03;26;13
Speaker 3
Because or are they just clouded? Is that what.

00;03;26;16 - 00;03;55;20
Speaker 1
No. There's so there's another concept that's really important and that's attention. What are you paying attention to. Right. And this is where the concept of living by the flesh or living by the spirit. Right. Are you led by that sensual layer. That outer. Are you. Is that what you're paying attention to. Sure. Right. This is what Saint Paul calls the flesh, right.

00;03;55;20 - 00;04;25;03
Speaker 1
The spirit of the flesh, the life and the flesh, etc.. he's not talking about the body because, remember, all of these layers are good. They're all good. They're supposed to function. our attention needs to be from the inside out with the heart. And that peaceful, quiet stillness being the ruler of everything else.

00;04;25;06 - 00;04;44;23
Speaker 2
So we're basically talking, Paul. Ephesians three right. He's in prison. Everybody's freaking out. And he says, I pray God would strengthen you in the inner man. So Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, so you would know how high and wide and long and deep is the love of God that surpasses kenosis head knowledge. Yes, that you may be filled to all the fullness of God.

00;04;44;23 - 00;04;45;23
Speaker 2
So he's going through layers.

00;04;45;23 - 00;04;50;21
Speaker 1
They're exciting. Yeah. It's amazing. It's all in the Bible.

00;04;50;23 - 00;04;53;06
Speaker 2
Yeah. yes, it is what I meant.

00;04;53;08 - 00;05;23;23
Speaker 1
It's like, right where these old guys, for the first time, I'm going. Wait a minute. They're quoting the same verses, but they're seeing things here. But never, ever occurred to anybody that I. You know, I was very well read. I, I was very well read in the second Great Awakening material, even just contemporary in the 1980s, contemporary evangelical material.

00;05;24;20 - 00;06;05;20
Speaker 1
I was very I, I read Luther in German. I had read quite a bit of, Calvin, I knew I mean, you know, I wasn't, like, I for a lay person. I wasn't a professor of theology. Sure, but I read a lot, and none of these guys saw, in these things. What? These guys, these old fellows, these people who were like the disciples of the disciples of Jesus, you know, or just just two or 3 or 4 generations out.

00;06;05;22 - 00;06;06;20
Speaker 3
Right.

00;06;06;22 - 00;06;47;22
Speaker 1
Who spoke the same language? Jesus spoke, lived in the same kind of cultural milieu. Jesus lived in. Who is more likely to understand the Scripture? Me 7 or 8 paradigm shifts, 10,000 miles away, a language, a completely different language group that's a different language. or somebody who lived in approximately the same geographical region spoke the language of the Scripture as a native language.

00;06;49;03 - 00;07;01;13
Speaker 1
had a very similar cultural framework. Not exactly the same, of course, but very similar compared to me. I understand it better.

00;07;01;15 - 00;07;04;01
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;07;04;03 - 00;07;05;04
Speaker 2
Wow.

00;07;05;06 - 00;07;09;00
Speaker 3
Yeah. So here's a question. Well I got.

00;07;09;00 - 00;07;09;25
Speaker 2
Lots of questions all right.

00;07;09;25 - 00;07;12;14
Speaker 3
Yeah lots of questions is.

00;07;12;15 - 00;07;14;01
Speaker 2
It's all in my rational mind though.

00;07;14;01 - 00;07;14;25
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's all.

00;07;14;28 - 00;07;15;23
Speaker 1
True.

00;07;17;19 - 00;07;18;19
Speaker 2
you know

00;07;18;21 - 00;07;22;11
Speaker 3
Yes. no. Father Mike told us it's a good area. Just needs.

00;07;22;13 - 00;07;31;07
Speaker 2
Oh, that's right. It just needs redeeming good fun. Got it. And redeeming. Back to redemption. Everybody where we started, that's what I was right there. That's what all. That's where you're going. Very nice.

00;07;31;10 - 00;07;56;21
Speaker 3
Well, what I'm thinking is as as we've said, the church being a place of healing, it's so in the context of, you know, that kind of, you know, the, the eyes of the Murray characterizing the Ephesians three thing and what you've been talking about, going through the layers and that perception at the core of our being, the kingdom is there, God.

00;07;56;21 - 00;08;32;03
Speaker 3
It's like a macarius. Right? All things are in the heart. Yeah. and so how in how would you frame or speak of the means by which the church gets someone there? Okay. Is it is it private individual practices? Is it a part of the tradition that gives us a way of living? Is it metered out through the sacraments, like I think the Catholic Church would, would, would very much default to being metered out through the sacraments.

00;08;32;05 - 00;08;54;13
Speaker 3
The grace that's metered out through the sacraments. So what in in terms of when it comes to the Orthodox Church, how would you view that and go, it's the it's a place of it's not just a place of healing because you go there and somehow, somehow, because you've attended on a Sunday morning, you're healed. It sounds like it's a bit more involved, but more all encompassing than that.

00;08;54;16 - 00;09;16;26
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's it is it's but it's all of those things you mentioned. All those things are essential components. Right. salvation is right. You have to eat and drink the body and blood of Christ. Right? We call the communion the medicine of immortality.

00;09;17;02 - 00;09;18;05
Speaker 2
Oh, I.

00;09;18;05 - 00;10;04;07
Speaker 1
Like medicine of immortality. But in order to eat and drink the body and blood of Christ, you have to pray. You have to come to the liturgy. You have to prepare yourself. Right, which involves fasting, which involves prayers. Right. So there's all of these personal things tied in, but it's not just personal, because you have to do all of these personal things in the context of a community of brothers and sisters who will constantly annoy and frustrate you, but you have to love them, and then you love yourself.

00;10;04;09 - 00;10;11;20
Speaker 2
And which is the part really getting at at your emotional layer and at your rational layer.

00;10;11;22 - 00;10;12;20
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.

00;10;12;23 - 00;10;15;04
Speaker 2
And and so you get to see what's really in there.

00;10;15;06 - 00;10;48;05
Speaker 1
Right? The church is set up to save you. You know, I love the story of Thomas Doubting Thomas. So he calls the other 12 disciples, other 11 disciples liars aren't I guess. Oh yes he does. And calls them liars. I will not believe. But right. Eight days later, where is Thomas? He's still with the the disciples.

00;10;48;07 - 00;10;48;29
Speaker 2
That you called.

00;10;49;01 - 00;11;23;14
Speaker 1
Off. He didn't say, I'm going to go start my own church of the. Jesus didn't rise from the dead group because I didn't see it. He didn't. He didn't know. Despite this intense conflict he has with the ten. Because Judas is out of the picture now. Yeah. Despite this, despite this he hangs in there. Right. He and so for us and we and I believe this is the teaching of the scripture.

00;11;23;16 - 00;11;35;13
Speaker 1
Salvation is not individual. it is relational. It is personal right. Personal and individual don't mean the same thing.

00;11;35;15 - 00;11;38;13
Speaker 2
Okay. So this comes back to a familial thing where we start.

00;11;38;13 - 00;11;50;20
Speaker 1
Yes. Right. God is saving a people. You don't get saved by yourself.

00;11;50;22 - 00;12;19;01
Speaker 1
You get you get saved in communion with a priest who has boring service sermons and and, a parish council chairman who likes to spend money on things you don't think are important. And with a, you know, lady who just always insists on picking at what you're wearing, right? You're wearing sandals to church. You're not supposed to wear sandals to church like that.

00;12;19;01 - 00;12;53;15
Speaker 1
And then, the church is full of it. Because this is how we get saved by bearing one another's burdens and so fulfilling the law of Christ. It's only as I love my enemy. The church is full of enemies. I got a church full of enemies, and I have to love them all. I don't do it very well, but I strive.

00;12;53;18 - 00;13;04;20
Speaker 1
I mean, this is what the Bible says. This is what Jesus says. Yeah, this is how the church is set up. I'm forgive me, just get a little bit more rant here.

00;13;04;22 - 00;13;07;02
Speaker 2
Oh that's great. I'm. I like Orthodox right.

00;13;07;04 - 00;13;22;28
Speaker 1
And tired of having teenagers say to me that church is full of hypocrites. It's like, well, you better leave them, right? I mean, well, or maybe I should say you'll fit right in then.

00;13;24;28 - 00;13;25;21
Speaker 2
oh. You good?

00;13;25;23 - 00;13;26;10
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's right.

00;13;26;10 - 00;13;38;08
Speaker 1
I mean, a human being who isn't a hypocrite. Show me a human being who doesn't live up to even their own standards of what they think is right and wrong. Right?

00;13;38;10 - 00;13;43;15
Speaker 2
I remember Graham Cook said that if you ever find the perfect church, don't go there. You'll ruin it.

00;13;43;17 - 00;13;47;24
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Why is it that way, then?

00;13;47;26 - 00;13;48;28
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;13;49;00 - 00;14;20;20
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, obviously it's that way because then no one could be saved. Because then only perfect people could join. But it's also. God has set it up this way. This is how we're saved. Steel sharpening steel. Right. It's. Yeah, it's bearing the burden that is the other person, right? That is the burden. And and, you know, the boring sermon, you know, whatever.

00;14;20;20 - 00;14;29;09
Speaker 1
All the imperfect things. bald priest, right? I mean, the all the stuff that annoys you.

00;14;29;11 - 00;14;36;21
Speaker 2
So we're when we're talking, just going to see if I can pull this back into heart stuff. So let's let's use the word there.

00;14;36;21 - 00;14;38;29
Speaker 1
That's hard stuff. Yeah.

00;14;39;02 - 00;14;39;15
Speaker 2
Oh.

00;14;39;17 - 00;14;42;06
Speaker 1
It's hard stuff. Yeah.

00;14;42;08 - 00;14;44;16
Speaker 2
Because I mean the focus of the air.

00;14;44;18 - 00;15;07;05
Speaker 1
I can love this annoying person. Next to me is to pull my attention away from this annoying person. Yeah. Into my heart where I do love this person and all the annoying things he or she are doing are really irrelevant.

00;15;07;07 - 00;15;15;04
Speaker 2
They really don't because really, they're on a different layer. Why don't you go into that deeper place? Yeah, they're not there. Yeah, because that's a still part.

00;15;15;08 - 00;15;16;20
Speaker 1
Of they are there.

00;15;16;22 - 00;15;19;19
Speaker 2
Oh yeah. Well yeah. Yeah here they are there.

00;15;19;21 - 00;15;57;05
Speaker 1
But but what do you, what do you perceive there of that person. Yeah I perceive a weak, struggling, suffering human being who manifests that weakness and suffering and very annoying ways to me. On. But what I see in my heart is this person God loves who is suffering and struggling and weak and confused and emphasizing the wrong things or whatever.

00;15;57;08 - 00;16;01;25
Speaker 1
That's the person I love. I have to love that person. Yeah.

00;16;01;27 - 00;16;22;05
Speaker 2
So could you. I'm just trying again is kind of just thinking back to my Mennonite way of grasping this evangelical, okay, so let me can I read a quote by Saint Basil quickly either quoting Basil and and, and you know, Isaac is 600 and Basil 315.

00;16;22;11 - 00;16;31;24
Speaker 1
Isaac dies in the year 700. Oh, wow. Guys, around seven and 70s. He dies around 770, maybe a little earlier.

00;16;31;25 - 00;16;33;08
Speaker 3
No. Basil. Basil, the.

00;16;33;11 - 00;16;34;16
Speaker 1
370 around.

00;16;34;18 - 00;16;51;20
Speaker 2
370. Got it. Okay, so just I think this will inform this a little bit, although you might need to explain it. Stillness, the Saint Basil says, is the beginning of the soul's purification. For when the outward members cease from their outward activity and from the distraction caused thereby.

00;16;51;26 - 00;16;53;22
Speaker 3
That's the layer, right?

00;16;53;26 - 00;17;21;04
Speaker 2
Or the somebody annoying you, right? Right, right. cause they're by then the mind turns away from distractions and rational layer. Yeah, that are outside its realm and abides quietly within itself. And the heart awakens. So something happened. Something's happening here, right? And then the inner man and the heart of which you can help explain. And the heart awakens for the searching out of deliberations that are within the soul.

00;17;22;17 - 00;17;26;14
Speaker 2
So, so that's the maybe I love this person. Maybe they're broken.

00;17;26;14 - 00;17;33;12
Speaker 1
Maybe the heart awakens. Is that noetic perception of the heart. Right.

00;17;33;14 - 00;17;34;15
Speaker 2
Got it. Okay.

00;17;34;22 - 00;17;51;08
Speaker 1
And then it moves back the other way. Right. So that stillness and peace and quietness in the presence of God affects the thoughts.

00;17;51;10 - 00;17;55;01
Speaker 2
So we're talking the thing out of your heart will flow. Rivers of love.

00;17;55;06 - 00;18;00;14
Speaker 1
Exactly. See, so the Bible.

00;18;00;16 - 00;18;02;20
Speaker 2
It is. Yeah. Well, I yeah.

00;18;02;22 - 00;18;06;11
Speaker 3
So when, when Basil in that quote says this is important.

00;18;06;11 - 00;18;07;03
Speaker 2
It's cool yet but.

00;18;07;03 - 00;18;20;29
Speaker 3
Yeah, but when Basil says the turning away from the the outer layer, the sensual, the rational mind is calmed. Now the heart awakens. And as the heart awakens, it begins searching the soul. I think that was what was said, right?

00;18;21;01 - 00;18;25;05
Speaker 2
Right. And there's something going on there, and this lower layer of life flowing.

00;18;25;05 - 00;18;45;12
Speaker 3
In that so that then in that sense, the soul, as you're saying, it moves back out. The soul is kind of this amalgamation of that rational, sensual perception, thought, life. And now the heart is actually moving back out through there. And.

00;18;45;14 - 00;18;46;22
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;18;46;25 - 00;18;47;22
Speaker 3
Would you say that.

00;18;47;29 - 00;18;53;20
Speaker 1
We gotta to be careful with the word soul. So it's a Greek word psyche. Psyche.

00;18;53;26 - 00;18;54;24
Speaker 3
Right.

00;18;54;26 - 00;19;01;27
Speaker 1
And it's a more general term. Protestants have tended to use it as a specific term.

00;19;01;27 - 00;19;02;21
Speaker 3
Yes.

00;19;02;23 - 00;19;17;02
Speaker 1
As though we're referring to a specific thing. but it's a term that can refer to the entire non-material aspect of a human being.

00;19;17;02 - 00;19;17;19
Speaker 3
Right?

00;19;17;22 - 00;19;31;09
Speaker 1
Right. So that's why it's sometimes translated life in the Scripture. Your life, the word soul is translated life.

00;19;31;12 - 00;19;31;25
Speaker 2
Got it.

00;19;32;01 - 00;20;07;04
Speaker 1
It's it's the in your entire the entire aspect of you that's not physical. Okay. Right. So it's all of those layers and it would even in a sense include the heart. So when it says the heart is searching out all of your immaterial, your thoughts, your feelings, your all. That's right. So when you're when your attention comes to your noose, when you can bring it there, then it's like a radiation starts to happen and it radiates out.

00;20;07;07 - 00;20;12;29
Speaker 1
And that's an interesting metaphor, isn't it? But I think it's it's a helpful metaphor. Yeah. It's like there's.

00;20;12;29 - 00;20;15;17
Speaker 2
Still a morning star rises in your heart. Yeah.

00;20;15;17 - 00;20;50;18
Speaker 1
Morning. But it it starts to influence. And this is why, and I think most people have been, you know, serious Christians for a while have had this experience where at some deep level, they're at peace, and then they're experiencing something. Thoughts, feelings, sir, because it's not really the circumstances. It's our thoughts about the circumstances that are the problem.

00;20;50;18 - 00;20;56;23
Speaker 1
Right? Yeah. Thoughts, feelings, whatever. And they're not being disturbed by them.

00;20;56;25 - 00;20;57;19
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;20;57;19 - 00;21;05;01
Speaker 1
Right. Yes. They're just like standing back watching it happen.

00;21;05;03 - 00;21;11;25
Speaker 2
I think yeah. That's a good charismatic or good, even evangelical experience. Right. I'm out of money. I don't know why it's not bother me somehow.

00;21;11;26 - 00;21;39;27
Speaker 1
I have yeah I so this is why I got to be careful and say that it's when I criticize some of these charismatic and evangelical ways of doing things. I'm not saying that God hasn't used these things. God loves humanity. God draws people to himself with whatever they give him, right?

00;21;39;29 - 00;21;58;06
Speaker 2
God, we just don't have it. We just don't really have an understanding. I mean, evangelicals, charismatics, we just don't have a like like, I'm sure everybody out there would say, have you ever if I asked them, have you ever felt led to call to pray for somebody? And you don't know why? I just have to pray or I need to call so-and-so.

00;21;58;06 - 00;21;58;18
Speaker 2
I don't know.

00;21;58;18 - 00;21;59;25
Speaker 1
Why. Right. And and where.

00;21;59;25 - 00;22;03;12
Speaker 2
Where is that coming from? Where we would say your news. It's coming inside here.

00;22;03;13 - 00;22;06;01
Speaker 1
I would be, yes, it definitely could be.

00;22;06;03 - 00;22;17;10
Speaker 2
Yeah. But we just don't realize nobody teaches us to look there. We're always taught to look external, although these internal things are happening, although we're really good at conviction, you know, we're good at look at it that way.

00;22;17;12 - 00;22;19;01
Speaker 3
I know we're really good at guilt.

00;22;19;04 - 00;22;24;11
Speaker 1
Well, you know, that's the problem, right? And maybe we should address that a bit here, right?

00;22;24;14 - 00;22;29;17
Speaker 2
Oh, well, yes. faith of faith in would be right.

00;22;30;10 - 00;22;31;01
Speaker 1
okay. Although that.

00;22;31;01 - 00;22;33;00
Speaker 2
Might be another day looking at the time, but that's.

00;22;33;03 - 00;23;22;11
Speaker 1
Okay. Well, you know, basically real quickly in, in the scripture this quickly in two ways. They talk about believing in Jesus in Greek. There's believing into Jesus, not in into, which means you're believing into Jesus. And believing or the faith of Jesus, which gets translated, unfortunately, faith in. But it's really faith of. And if you read any Protestant commentator, they'll say, oh, well, the genitive actually means faith in says who?

00;23;22;14 - 00;23;56;09
Speaker 1
Says, you Protestants who already believe that? Right. But that's not what it says. It says the faith of Jesus. It's Jesus's faith that does this. It's not my ability to be faithful. It's his ability to be faithful right now. It doesn't mean that I don't have faith. I don't believe yes, right. In fact, I said, there's this phrase that's used in Scripture believing into Jesus, right?

00;23;56;11 - 00;23;59;22
Speaker 1
That again, there's this movement of some sort, right?

00;23;59;25 - 00;24;08;26
Speaker 3
More or less it less adherence to certain, right, doctrinal statements and more movement.

00;24;09;03 - 00;24;44;23
Speaker 1
Right. So if you're if your concept of salvation or your model of salvation involves some sort of a once and for all moment experience that I'm either in or I'm out, and if I'm in, I'm all in. If I'm out, I'm all out. then classic Luther sort of stuff here. then you got a problem. Because what happens if you screw up really bad?

00;24;44;25 - 00;25;12;21
Speaker 1
What happens if you screw up? Really bad for a long time? Well, the the the typical Partizan answer is, well, you were never really saved, right. And so in my teenage years, I got saved several times, went up to the altar right, got baptized I think three times. you know, because.

00;25;12;24 - 00;25;14;00
Speaker 2
That's hardcore, father Mike.

00;25;14;00 - 00;25;47;14
Speaker 1
Well, I wanted to be saved, but it just never seemed to take. Right? It just never seemed to take. I do the stuff I'd say I believe with all my heart. Yeah, but then, you know, the the passions and the sins and. Right. As opposed to understanding salvation as a journey, you and right and I am going to God is taking you.

00;25;47;14 - 00;26;14;15
Speaker 1
Just use the biblical example. He's taking this abandoned baby, right? I would use the word fetus, which is actually how it was used to be translated like in the old King James, but they don't. now we use fetus differently, but like a newborn born covered in embryonic fluid and blood and just abandoned by the side of the road.

00;26;14;18 - 00;26;40;18
Speaker 1
And God comes and takes her because it's a female, takes her to his own home. But there's a lot of washing and training and discipline and and mistakes and a lot happening along the way. Right before you get to the bridal chamber.

00;26;40;20 - 00;26;44;06
Speaker 2
Yeah, right. So that's the journey of of repentance.

00;26;44;09 - 00;26;46;27
Speaker 1
Of those lives, just not repentance. Yeah.

00;26;46;29 - 00;27;08;02
Speaker 2
To put this together and see if this just again, you know, to put it maybe a way that evangelicals could understand it. I always like to go back to my maybe a minute right here for a minute. Just for a minute. you know, so Hebrews 12 says, Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith, so that his his faith, that he's the perfecter.

00;27;08;06 - 00;27;35;10
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and then it goes on to talk about, you know, discipline like you get like, you know, you know, the father disciplines those he loves. Right. And that chapter 12 ends with, therefore strengthen your feeble arms and weakness and make level paths for your feet. No, no. Discipline at the time seems pleasant but painful, but later on it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who've been trained by it.

00;27;35;13 - 00;27;55;24
Speaker 2
And then it goes on to that next part. And and so thinking of it like this, in context of everything, we've talked about, that often when the Lord is a father is disciplining us, he's working on this stuff in our sensual nature, and he's working on this stuff in our rational mind. I'm judging people. People are annoying me.

00;27;55;24 - 00;28;28;22
Speaker 2
I'm afraid I'm going to run out of money. How can I trust him? Because he's like my earthly dad. Oh my goodness. But as I'm beginning to be still in Christ and go into this deeper level, these aspects of me are being washed. They're being cleansed. This author and perfector is doing his job. And I'm and in the, in the Orthodox Church, this idea of working on this deeper layer of of stillness, the real me down in here with Christ in the midst of all, let's say Hebrews 12, the father's disciplining us for our good.

00;28;28;24 - 00;28;52;16
Speaker 2
Things are coming up out of the heart. I'm starting to look more like Jesus. And then no discipline at the same speed seems pleasant. I mean, running out of money, people judging me, tough times in church, they're not pleasant. But as I begin to love and authors perfecting my faith exchange, I, strengthen my, you know, feeble arms and weak knees make level paths for your feet, for the lay may not be disabled, but rather healed.

00;28;53;03 - 00;29;00;19
Speaker 2
there's this process of living from the outside. Inside out. Maybe would be a good way to say it.

00;29;00;21 - 00;29;02;04
Speaker 1
Yeah, sure. I mean.

00;29;02;09 - 00;29;19;09
Speaker 2
Because if it's a faith of Christ and he's transforming me. Yes. I just got to let him do his job. Yes, but be willing to look at all this stuff going on in there. Okay? Because there's another universe inside of me.

00;29;19;15 - 00;29;33;02
Speaker 1
Okay. Let me. What is that all about? This one. What? I like everything you said. Okay. One thing. Okay. where you said, oh, I'm starting to look more like Jesus along.

00;29;33;04 - 00;29;34;28
Speaker 2
Oh, okay.

00;29;35;01 - 00;29;51;06
Speaker 1
A child does not see herself grow. She only notices that her clothes are getting tight. Okay? The Saints only see themselves as worse and worse sinners.

00;29;51;08 - 00;29;53;11
Speaker 2
Yes. Why? Why do they use this language?

00;29;53;12 - 00;29;57;27
Speaker 1
Make us as I get closer to Christ.

00;29;57;29 - 00;29;59;04
Speaker 2
Oh, it's like a bright light that.

00;29;59;04 - 00;30;05;04
Speaker 1
Really shines brighter again. That's a metaphor. Yeah. Yeah, right.

00;30;05;06 - 00;30;08;17
Speaker 2
And so that's Paul saying I'm the chief of sinners at the end. Right.

00;30;08;19 - 00;30;39;09
Speaker 1
So you know, I and again, this is something I have to say to people in confession all the time. They'll finally work up the courage and they'll come to confession and they'll say, I just I just have to confess, I, I'm not even a Christian because I, I oh, I hate this. and what I say to them is, no, you are wrong.

00;30;39;11 - 00;31;12;28
Speaker 1
The very fact that you are bothered by this is evidence that the Holy Spirit is working in you. If the Holy Spirit weren't working in you, you wouldn't care. But the fact that you realize that it's a sin. What? When this. What did Jesus say? When the spirit of truth comes, he will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

00;31;13;01 - 00;31;41;25
Speaker 1
Right? So if you are convicted of your sin, if you are worried about the judgment of God, if you are, concerned that you're not righteous, guess what? This is evidence that the Holy Spirit is at work in you and giving you the gift of repentance. Some right turn away from the sin and towards the grace of God.

00;31;41;28 - 00;31;54;04
Speaker 1
Right? You are being saved. This is the evidence. And this is why. Very holy people, saints, right? Oh, I'm a worm and not a man, right?

00;31;54;04 - 00;31;55;28
Speaker 2
I I'm the chief of sinners.

00;31;55;29 - 00;32;29;24
Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm chief of sinners. I'm, I love, Saint Francis of Assisi, referring to himself as brother, as, brother as, you know why? Because the Holy Spirit is so active in them that they see the slightest speck, they see the right, they any little shadow that is separating them is a big concern for them.

00;32;29;26 - 00;32;53;29
Speaker 1
Right. Wow. I'm so dull. I'm so dull that I've got to be lost. And two hours of stupid YouTube videos before I realize, oh, I've just wasted two hours. That was probably not God's will for my life, right? and that dull?

00;32;54;01 - 00;32;54;27
Speaker 2
Well, I.

00;32;55;01 - 00;33;04;01
Speaker 1
These guys, these holy guys, they. Right. They, they're very holy.

00;33;04;03 - 00;33;10;01
Speaker 2
Okay, so if, again. Boy, my brain is just, like, really working here, can.

00;33;10;01 - 00;33;11;11
Speaker 3
I can I ask a quick question?

00;33;11;15 - 00;33;13;28
Speaker 2
Yeah. Please. Please do, work working on.

00;33;13;28 - 00;33;16;15
Speaker 3
When you work on that I because this all this, all.

00;33;16;20 - 00;33;18;06
Speaker 2
The chewing gum here.

00;33;18;09 - 00;33;31;27
Speaker 3
I think I'm trying to understand. I love the story of. Where is it? Anthony asks his disciples, what does a certain passage mean? And all of them give their answers. And I think it's Pokemon he gets to or Pombo. One of the two.

00;33;32;00 - 00;33;32;29
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

00;33;33;02 - 00;33;36;24
Speaker 3
And he says, I don't know. And he says, you indeed.

00;33;37;18 - 00;33;38;25
Speaker 1
you have answered correctly.

00;33;38;25 - 00;34;08;22
Speaker 3
Yeah, you have answered correctly, I don't know. you called the church the Divine Human Institution. Yes. Right. and, I when you said that, I was wondering, is that is that hyper static language in that sense? Like, you know, where we see divine human and Jesus in the church, is that working its way out into the world through his people?

00;34;08;22 - 00;34;13;10
Speaker 3
Is that is that is that concept in that language?

00;34;13;12 - 00;34;22;23
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yes. But it's it's there in a very, very messy manner for sure.

00;34;22;25 - 00;34;40;09
Speaker 3
Well, and we've just walked we've just talked all through the messiness of that. Yeah. But that's the idea, is that the union seen there is now being witnessed on Earth in about the messiest way possible. But the father's the father's okay with in what.

00;34;40;19 - 00;35;00;28
Speaker 1
you know, that means what parent. Right. Who's three year old is having a temper tantrum in the grocery store, right. What parent is going to pull out a gun and shoot the kid? Sure. Right. okay. I mean, we live in a sick world. There are some sick people. Yes.

00;35;01;02 - 00;35;01;08
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;35;01;10 - 00;35;40;08
Speaker 1
Healthy parent. Yeah. The healthy parent sees the bigger picture. Right. Is able to step back and like is I'm embarrassed all these things. No no that's not they see. Oh my child is about to learn something right. and and it becomes a, a a, even a transformational moment for that child when that child learns that having a meltdown in a supermarket isn't going to go well for him.

00;35;40;08 - 00;35;40;28
Speaker 3
Right?

00;35;41;01 - 00;36;15;04
Speaker 1
Right, right, right. and, and so when I kind of have them a Thomas moment or a meltdown with God somehow and, the god's not saying, Oh, no, you're embarrassing me in the supermarket, right? Oh, no. He's bigger than he sees the bigger picture, right? He's he's he's after our soul and forming us and training us and and teaching us.

00;36;15;07 - 00;36;38;16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Even though sometimes I do act like a, you know, a terrible two year old. The terrible twos, right? Self-will, pushing, pushing, pushing or maybe like that, five year old that you keep saying why? But why? Why this why this why why why. Right. I mean, I'm doing this to God. Why is there suffering in the world?

00;36;38;16 - 00;37;07;06
Speaker 1
Why do I have to go through this? Why does he get that? Why did that just annoying, annoying, annoying? because you're five years old and I can't explain it to you, right? I don't even understand most of this stuff. Right? And although God knows. But maybe what God knows can't be explained in rational thought, right? It's only known in the secret place.

00;37;09;02 - 00;37;41;09
Speaker 1
right. Like job. What happens to job? Right? God shows up and completely humbles him. Right? And the rational mind. Right. Were you there when I created Leviathan? Right. Do you know how the deer gives birth? Right. Who feeds the eagles? Children. Right. babies and all these things. Right? All of this stuff. But it's like. All right.

00;37;41;12 - 00;38;09;11
Speaker 1
It's not process. Simple. On the rational level. And then job finally, I have heard of you with the hearing of the ear, but now my eyes see you, right? What eyes are he talking about? What eyes are? He is. What is he talking about? According to the Church Fathers, the news I said I have a heart. Now my eye sees you.

00;38;09;13 - 00;38;10;07
Speaker 3
Right?

00;38;10;10 - 00;38;11;13
Speaker 1
Right.

00;38;11;16 - 00;38;36;06
Speaker 2
Could you even say with job they're keeping in context of what we're talking about as far as layers that the Lord, you know, were you there when, you know, I created. Where you there when the eagle, like he got almost a fence. His rational mind. Yes. That part of them that's trying to control the situation and brings them into this place of quiet stillness, of awe.

00;38;36;14 - 00;38;42;20
Speaker 2
Right. Worry. Because I can't answer these questions like. But you're real and he brings him to this point of heart.

00;38;42;22 - 00;38;57;03
Speaker 1
Right? So hearing in the ear refers to the rational language part of the mind. I have heard of you with the hearing of me now my eye sees okay, bye bye. Like overloading that circuit.

00;38;57;06 - 00;38;57;23
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00;38;57;25 - 00;39;28;27
Speaker 1
Point doesn't this happened in our lives some time where we. We think we know how something's supposed to go, how something's supposed to work, and our circuits get overloaded because it's just so much bigger and more and more complicated. More difficult and more whatever than we thought. Like becoming a parent, right? Yeah. I think I got this in until the and and it's not so bad till they're born, right.

00;39;28;29 - 00;39;31;29
Speaker 1


00;39;32;02 - 00;39;40;02
Speaker 1
Your circuits get blown, and you have to, like, learn to pay attention to an upper level.

00;39;40;04 - 00;39;49;18
Speaker 2
Well, that's fascinating to think of that conversation with job in, in regards what we're talking about here in guards levels. the Lord like pushing him there.

00;39;49;20 - 00;39;51;05
Speaker 3
Well, that and that so that you.

00;39;51;05 - 00;39;54;28
Speaker 2
Understand and that see there is news.

00;39;55;00 - 00;40;19;15
Speaker 3
So would you say in the context of what we were saying, faith, you know, believing into Christ and faith of Christ, those two concepts, looking at the person of job, he's he's in a way, as he's wrestling with the questions of what's happened to him and what his friends are saying. He's believing himself into Christ, and he's making his movement there.

00;40;19;15 - 00;40;24;18
Speaker 3
And then the then God comes and wrestles back.

00;40;24;20 - 00;40;25;10
Speaker 1
Yes.

00;40;25;12 - 00;40;27;20
Speaker 3
And goes, this is crazy.

00;40;27;26 - 00;40;30;07
Speaker 1
He's engaging at the level he is.

00;40;30;07 - 00;40;31;26
Speaker 3
Up, right, right.

00;40;31;28 - 00;41;01;13
Speaker 1
Right. I always say to people, God loves you just the way you are, but he also loves you so much and he won't let you stay where you are. Right? Right, right. Yeah. So we have that's where he is. But and so he has this argument with God, this legal court battle and then he but in the court battle, he's saying, but I can't even have an argument because you're the judge and the prosecuting attorney and the defense, your your everything.

00;41;01;13 - 00;41;20;16
Speaker 1
Right, right. And the friends are giving him this really, like, bland, you know, advice while the evil suffer and the good prosper, which, by the way, or everything the friend say is true at a certain level.

00;41;20;22 - 00;41;21;05
Speaker 3
Right.

00;41;21;26 - 00;41;22;18
Speaker 2
very interesting.

00;41;22;18 - 00;41;52;03
Speaker 1
Just not true in the case of job's relationship with God and what's happening in his life right now. And so when we look at Scripture to find principles, principles are useful, principles are helpful, but God does not act according to principles. Right. God, our relationship with God is I mean, think of it. Think of your relationship with your wife.

00;41;52;05 - 00;42;37;28
Speaker 1
Right. Okay. Principles are helpful. But you, you don't really live by principles if you have a good relationship with your wife. Right. It's a mystical relationship that sometimes the principles don't count. They don't work right. Which doesn't mean they're not true in a broad, general way. but we're talking about relationship, right? Familial relationship. The relationship with my father, with my husband, my heavenly God, my heavenly father, my heavenly bridegroom.

00;42;38;00 - 00;42;39;17
Speaker 3
Right.

00;42;39;19 - 00;42;48;20
Speaker 2
Okay, okay. Speaking of that, I'm going to take you back, because just, I'm always trying to think about this again is from my evangelical lens.

00;42;48;20 - 00;42;53;09
Speaker 3
And this, I think will probably wrap up with this summer. Okay, we're at almost,

00;42;53;11 - 00;43;09;26
Speaker 2
Although I really want to go after this universe thing. Like, what's this all about? I mean, I another one. I know I've got a little inkling. My toe in the water, just my toe, but enough to know there's water there and that the rest of my body wants to get in. But my toe isn't enough to go. There's a reality here.

00;43;09;26 - 00;43;18;05
Speaker 2
I know it's there. I've touched it, you know. But okay, I will leave. I will leave that alone. I will not disturb that water. I'll just leave it sitting there.

00;43;18;05 - 00;43;22;01
Speaker 3
You'd be introducing people into a concept that they're not ready for.

00;43;22;04 - 00;43;23;09
Speaker 2
Yes. Well, putting.

00;43;23;09 - 00;43;24;13
Speaker 3
Myself.

00;43;24;16 - 00;43;50;04
Speaker 2
Yes, although we're going to go do a Jesus prayer at some point. It's going to happen. Yeah. It might, it might fit there. Oh, okay. So but for now, you know, this back again repentance because just to hit this theme again, it's back to what the church is and what's happening. And how do we view that this lifestyle of repentance just to kind of maybe so this together for, you know, how how are some some evangelical thinking here.

00;43;50;04 - 00;44;13;03
Speaker 2
This like the church is a lifestyle about repentance but shouldn't be. We be working on vision? Shouldn't we be out there saving people? Shouldn't I be going to conferences and learning information? Shouldn't I be, you know, all these things? so lifestyle of repentance. Jesus is forming us. He's fashioning us. Stuff is coming up as we do life.

00;44;13;03 - 00;44;38;05
Speaker 2
Some guy cuts me off in traffic, right? Stuff comes up in my heart. Right? would you say that because. Because the concept here that I'm going to kick out to something this all up, you know, 30,000ft view coming down closer to the ground level here. when, when like Saint Tim in the Theologian would say, or Paul, I'm the chief of sinners, you know, I'm like, they're seeing the this my nudist thing inside.

00;44;41;10 - 00;44;59;29
Speaker 2
Because my, my concern is because this is what I would do previously as an evangelical if I, you know, I'm following Christ, I find sin in myself. Oh, my goodness, my world is over. Look how horrible a person I am. You know, I got to live up to this. Great. I have to do this because this is what?

00;44;59;29 - 00;45;19;21
Speaker 2
How? What a good Mennonite guy looks like. This is what I need to do, you know? Shove it down. Stick it together. Push through. Right. It's it's very me oriented. Right. And and to go around thinking you're chief of sinners all the time from that perspective of a work ethic, it's horrible. Like to hear that they think that's Christianity.

00;45;19;21 - 00;45;41;28
Speaker 2
Now, didn't I escape that when I became a charismatic and got away from being a mini knight? Because, oh my goodness, that puts a lot of pressure on me, you know? but when we're talking faith of Christ, there's a, you know, where it's starting to change. It's him forming me. But I'm only just letting him see it because it looks like Paul's rejoicing in his suffering.

00;45;42;06 - 00;46;08;11
Speaker 2
He's like, hey, I don't mind finding this stuff out about me because I get to be more like Jesus than, okay, so if I was going to some now here's where my wheels make him come off the bus here. If so, and that's okay. So to make this makes sense as an evangelical, because it doesn't look like Saint Simeon or any of these guys, or Paul is like, oh man, look at all I screwed up.

00;46;08;11 - 00;46;11;22
Speaker 2
Now I've got to work harder, but it's not working. Oh my goodness.

00;46;12;09 - 00;46;24;07
Speaker 3
show up earlier to church, stack more chairs, prove to the pastor that I'm okay, and pray a little bit. Pray a little bit louder in each service and sing a little bit louder.

00;46;24;07 - 00;46;26;00
Speaker 2
And got to work at man.

00;46;26;00 - 00;46;32;21
Speaker 3
Yeah. Make sure my Bible's a little bit bigger. Run over it a couple times in my car so it's more tattered and everybody thinks I've read it.

00;46;32;21 - 00;46;37;29
Speaker 2
More work equals love, baby. It's the Mennonite way. So,

00;46;38;02 - 00;46;39;10
Speaker 1
But could you.

00;46;39;10 - 00;47;07;20
Speaker 2
Could we go back to the. Because I think evangelicals would understand this experience, but they think it's a one time experience rather than a lifestyle, which maybe just, you know, the author and perfecter of our faith. That's a journey at this perfection. so in evangelicalism, we have this time where there's an altar call and, and you go up there and you get saved, or you repent, everyone you ever come up to the front.

00;47;07;22 - 00;47;26;16
Speaker 2
And if you're really convicted in your heart, like there's a heart thing going on and you see that you're a sinner, you get up there and you kneel down and there is this transaction that takes place. You realize you're a sinner, you really realize it. But at the same time, you're also experiencing the love of God in the midst of it.

00;47;26;18 - 00;47;52;23
Speaker 2
So at that moment, it's not a horrible thing at all. You just realize, I need a savior. I'm a really broken mess, so I'm aware of my brokenness and my sin. But I'm also aware of the the love of God for me. So when could we say looking at Paul or looking at Saint Simeon or these guys when they're like, they're not just going, oh, what a wretch that I am?

00;47;52;27 - 00;48;01;24
Speaker 2
Or are they also, as they're discovering these things about themselves, are they also discovering more of the love of God for themselves to.

00;48;01;26 - 00;48;18;05
Speaker 1
Well, isn't that what Saint Paul says, right when he talks about the thorn in his flesh and praying that God remove it? And God says, my grace is sufficient. And so several times when I am weak than I am strong, right?

00;48;18;08 - 00;48;28;18
Speaker 2
So I would have taken in my midnight culture, my grace is sufficient for you is this is how I would have taken that. Maybe I still take it that way.

00;48;28;21 - 00;48;47;08
Speaker 2
You know, okay, this is going to sound horrible, okay? Because I I'm not there now, let's just say. But what I would have thought, how I would have pictured that, I would have picture that. Okay, let's say I'm running. I'm trying to live by faith, you know, I'm going to Bible school. I don't have the money to really do it, but I'm going to do it right.

00;48;47;08 - 00;49;10;02
Speaker 2
I think I should, and this is that's true. I did do that. And then I'm I don't have any money. And now I'm thinking I'm, you know, am angry maybe at my dad for not helping me. I'm angry at I mean, I anyway, I remember these things coming up and and I would have taken my grace is sufficient for you to mean, hey, I'm with you in the midst of it.

00;49;10;04 - 00;49;31;11
Speaker 2
You know what? You suffered enough. Maybe I'll send you some cash or. But I, I I'm not taking it as tough, boy. It's just so hard to explain this. I'm not taking that as I'm experiencing my Heavenly Father in the midst of seeing my weakness. Does that make sense? As great. I'm thinking he'll do something external for me.

00;49;31;15 - 00;49;37;26
Speaker 2
But I'm going to have to really emotionally suffer here to do it, because that's just how it works. Yeah, you know.

00;49;37;29 - 00;50;13;02
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I, I remember those days actually and sometimes even have or not not in the last few years, but, since I've been orthodox been tempted to read. It's very seductive this, this idea of if I suffer enough, and this is kind of again, it comes out. Yeah. Medieval Latin, you know, merit based salvation. And, yeah, it's a very different way of looking at it.

00;50;13;03 - 00;50;14;26
Speaker 2
So that's not what they're talking about.

00;50;15;03 - 00;50;16;05
Speaker 1
What?

00;50;16;07 - 00;50;20;16
Speaker 2
When they say I'm chief of sinners, they're not talking about if I suffer enough.

00;50;20;18 - 00;50;49;21
Speaker 1
No, I mean, what when they talk about suffering, they're talking. You can't. They could never suffer enough. Jesus is the only one who suffered enough. But I can suffer with him. I can join my suffering to his. I can bear some of his suffering, right? I can join my suffering with his suffering. I can, as Saint Paul says, make up in myself what is lacking in the suffering of Christ.

00;50;49;24 - 00;51;04;14
Speaker 1
And we asked one Orthodox theology professor, what could possibly be lacking in the suffering of Christ? And you know what his answer was? Your participation.

00;51;05;08 - 00;51;09;07
Speaker 2
oh. Wow. Okay, that's.

00;51;09;09 - 00;51;41;05
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so and remember, we're many membered body, so I'm not going to have all the gifts. I'm not going to have all the abilities. Right. I'm going to have to have somebody help me with Bible college, for example. but then later on I'm going to have to help somebody else with Bible college, right? Yes. I'm going to have to repair my neighbor's car or, you know, this actually happened, not this last Sunday, but the Sunday before.

00;51;41;08 - 00;51;57;17
Speaker 1
I said to one of the ladies at the coffee hour. So that was your husband. And he says, oh, so and so one of the other ladies in the church, her car broke down on the way. So he went and picked her up. We went and picked her up, and then he's gone back to fix her car right.

00;51;57;20 - 00;52;19;04
Speaker 1
This is Christianity. This is what it's supposed to look like, right? And and you know, she's going through hell because her car is broken and her husband's out of town, and she doesn't know what to do. But now this guy is going, oh, well, I, you know, I have some mechanical ability. I'll just go. And I got some tools in my trunk.

00;52;19;04 - 00;52;43;24
Speaker 1
I'll tinker with it, see if I can get it going. right. This that, we just offer what we have, which isn't very much. None of us have very much. Right? We are all the widow with the little two mites. That's us. That's every one of us. Right. And we only get in trouble when we think. Or the person with the big gift.

00;52;43;26 - 00;52;56;12
Speaker 1
Because then we become the Pharisee. Then we become the show off. Then we become the ones who. No, no, just. Right. Remember my my, podcast on shrinking your vision?

00;52;56;15 - 00;52;57;14
Speaker 2
Yes.

00;52;57;16 - 00;53;27;01
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, right. Be the small one. Be the mustard seed. Right. Be the little one. You know, don't. Yeah. you may indeed be a five talent Christian, but don't see yourself as one right self, as someone who's struggling not to bury your one little talent.

00;53;27;03 - 00;53;30;01
Speaker 2
So take the low seed and let go. Let the Lord move. Yeah.

00;53;30;04 - 00;53;31;02
Speaker 1
See.

00;53;31;04 - 00;53;41;12
Speaker 3
I guess the the one talent Christian was the only one who really saw himself as a one talent Christian. Yeah. And the other guy took his ten and did something with it. The other guy took his five and did.

00;53;41;12 - 00;53;47;12
Speaker 1
Something that we. And we shouldn't do that. And so how is it? How do we go about doing that.

00;53;47;13 - 00;53;48;24
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

00;53;48;27 - 00;53;49;11
Speaker 1
And yeah.

00;53;49;16 - 00;53;51;16
Speaker 2
Which is to be another podcast right there.

00;53;51;17 - 00;53;57;14
Speaker 3
That's right, that's right. Wow. There's so much just there's so much to chew on.

00;53;57;16 - 00;54;00;17
Speaker 2
This one. It's like a tree growing out. But there's all these branches.

00;54;00;24 - 00;54;02;14
Speaker 3
Yes. Yeah that's right.

00;54;02;19 - 00;54;03;13
Speaker 2
Wonderful.

00;54;03;13 - 00;54;15;10
Speaker 3
That's right. I think I just think I don't know that father Mike answered and fixed any of us. He just brought. He just messed us all up over, all over again.

00;54;15;13 - 00;54;17;04
Speaker 2
Four branches, more branches.

00;54;17;04 - 00;54;21;00
Speaker 1
That's right. Well, no, I think Jesus is the only one who brings it together.

00;54;21;00 - 00;54;22;27
Speaker 3
There we go. All the way. Yeah.

00;54;22;29 - 00;54;24;16
Speaker 2
Thank you, Lord Jesus.

00;54;24;19 - 00;54;25;07
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's right.

00;54;25;08 - 00;54;26;27
Speaker 2
We're cramped.

00;54;27;00 - 00;54;35;22
Speaker 3
I feel like, in a way, like, Peter, when Jesus said, I'll be praying for you. Peter.

00;54;35;24 - 00;54;42;02
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's your faith. My faith? Yeah. Yeah, that was desire to sift you as wheat, but. Yeah. Pray for you.

00;54;42;05 - 00;54;42;29
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;54;43;02 - 00;55;09;06
Speaker 1
Well, sometimes I feel like the disciples, after Jesus said, you have to eat my body and drink my blood, and, the people. This is a hard saying. Who can hear it? And many stopped following, right. And he turned to the 12 and said, so, are you going to leave also? And I believe it was Peter who said, Lord, where should we go?

00;55;09;08 - 00;55;40;07
Speaker 1
Right. What the words of life. Sometimes I'm very offended. I'm very confused, I don't know, but like Murray, I know there's something here. Yeah, right. The words of life are here. Yeah. yeah. Even if I don't understand them. If they offend me, if whatever. I don't want to run away. I want to be like Thomas, who just stays with Jesus, stays with the disciples until Jesus shows up, right?

00;55;40;14 - 00;55;48;08
Speaker 1
Suffers the confusion and the not knowing until Jesus shows up.

00;55;48;10 - 00;56;03;14
Speaker 3
Right? Yeah. That's beautiful. Well, Murray and Father Mike, I think we'll call this episode to a close. With that said, man, we will. We have, you know, probably 100 more episodes to do with father Mike going forward. Now.

00;56;04;17 - 00;56;09;00
Speaker 2
oh, man, I'm still stuck on the universes inside this.

00;56;10;19 - 00;56;11;06
Speaker 3
yes.

00;56;11;17 - 00;56;15;05
Speaker 2
and suffer your participation. Okay. That's another.

00;56;15;05 - 00;56;49;13
Speaker 3
Yeah, those are all. Well, they're all concepts that would. And the reason we like having father Mike on is because these concepts deeply impact. Like, I had this thought, as we wind up, I guess is, when it comes to our charismatic slash Protestant evangelical background, the the, the system of thought that we've been given only rarely gives us the answer we're looking for, and, or the practice or the response.

00;56;49;15 - 00;56;55;20
Speaker 3
And, you know, what father Mike says just makes a lot more sense. Yeah.

00;56;55;28 - 00;57;24;01
Speaker 2
yeah. Because I think everybody watching this part, watching listening to this podcast, if you're still listening after all this time, I would suggest it's because, you know, there's this journey of becoming like Jesus and it hasn't worked out like you thought, but Jesus is still leading the way. Yeah. Why is it like this? And you're learning that this interchange is something this bridle paradigm, if we want to use that particular symbolism.

00;57;24;01 - 00;57;24;14
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;57;25;04 - 00;57;45;15
Speaker 2
is actually happening. But where do we find that in the church history? Where do we find that? Right. Theologically? Who believes that? Who's doing it? Well, I think we tripped into that a little bit today, like, hey, there's this other piece in us that is still where the Lord can be encountered as a charismatic. Well, right.

00;57;45;18 - 00;57;46;22
Speaker 3
And that's where I think.

00;57;46;27 - 00;58;05;27
Speaker 2
that's a bit that's a that should get us all, you know, like, wait a minute. I was I've been I'm spiritually sensitive, but it's about the inner world. What you know, I mean, that's, that's just that alone as a charismatic person listening. Yeah. I'm realizing, okay, it doesn't work to build churches. It doesn't work to build things.

00;58;05;27 - 00;58;09;28
Speaker 2
It doesn't work. Where does it work? Oh. Inner world. Right.

00;58;10;01 - 00;58;10;28
Speaker 3
And that's where I mean.

00;58;11;04 - 00;58;12;01
Speaker 2
That's a big thought.

00;58;12;02 - 00;58;12;15
Speaker 3
We've got a.

00;58;12;21 - 00;58;15;04
Speaker 2
We didn't even touch it really. We kind of walked around.

00;58;15;04 - 00;58;32;24
Speaker 3
But we've got a system of thought and we it seems like sometimes we trip into that place of still quiet, where the heart begins to inform our actions. Yeah, but we don't have an understanding that helps facilitate that. We almost accidentally find it.

00;58;32;28 - 00;58;34;19
Speaker 2
Yeah. Absolutely right.

00;58;34;21 - 00;58;52;26
Speaker 3
Absolutely true. And then. And then you have someone explain it and you go, oh, that makes so much sense. Way more sense than the other stuff I've been told. The other stuff I've been told just kind of seems to be this haphazard way of piling different systems upon our own brokenness. And so, anyway, that's that's kind of my thought right now.

00;58;52;26 - 00;58;59;20
Speaker 3
So I just so appreciate everything you've shared, father Mike, and your willingness, your willingness to say yes. So now we know.

00;58;59;22 - 00;59;01;15
Speaker 2
And to spend so much time with us. Yeah.

00;59;01;15 - 00;59;11;26
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And and we know that if we ask you're, you're on consistent mandate to come and thus we give you a reason not to. So yeah.

00;59;12;00 - 00;59;20;28
Speaker 2
Which is wonderful that that was that was a good Freudian slip there. Father Mike, give us that information. Yeah yeah, yeah. That's right I say yes and let's the Lord tells you know.

00;59;20;28 - 00;59;22;19
Speaker 3
Oh yeah. That's right.

00;59;22;21 - 00;59;23;13
Speaker 2
That's precedent.

00;59;23;20 - 00;59;39;18
Speaker 3
But there you go. So thank you, father Mike. And for everybody listening, please go check out, praying in the rain. And, you can get more father Mike's podcasts, which he does. I think you said last time you do whenever the inspiration hits.

00;59;39;20 - 01;00;03;28
Speaker 1
Yeah, I used to do them weekly. I think I've got, 5 or 600 up now. Right now? just. But I'm now down to, like, 3 or 4 times a year. just something bugs me or inspires me, right? And I just did one on, the passions and gardening.

01;00;04;00 - 01;00;06;03
Speaker 3
Oh, interesting.

01;00;06;06 - 01;00;10;12
Speaker 1
That's the latest one up. Right. Go to ancient faith.com.

01;00;10;12 - 01;00;12;06
Speaker 3
Ancient faith and faith.com.

01;00;12;06 - 01;00;15;02
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And they're this they sponsor tour.

01;00;15;05 - 01;00;23;21
Speaker 3
That's awesome. Wonderful. That's awesome. and if you're in Langley, check out Holy Nativity Church. And you can look up Father in.

01;00;25;05 - 01;00;27;00
Speaker 2
there. That's a good problem to have, I guess.

01;00;27;03 - 01;00;28;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. Act on Sundays.

01;00;28;20 - 01;00;40;26
Speaker 3
That's. And that was another thing I wanted to talk about was the. I keep hearing these rumblings that the Orthodox churches are just brimming with people, and, that's it's.

01;00;40;26 - 01;01;07;18
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, and it's funny, they're, a few of I mean, some of them, they're almost all of them nuns, you know what I mean? No, nuns. Right. They're they're not from an evangelical background. They're not from they're atheist. Right. They don't have any faith whatsoever, really. But they just, you know, something inspires them to say, wow, I need to,

01;01;07;21 - 01;01;08;20
Speaker 3
I need to come.

01;01;08;22 - 01;01;13;04
Speaker 1
Yeah. I've got, I don't know, maybe about 20 right now. Catechumens.

01;01;13;04 - 01;01;14;27
Speaker 2
Wow, wow, wow.

01;01;14;28 - 01;01;16;02
Speaker 3
Where are you in that?

01;01;16;04 - 01;01;19;13
Speaker 2
What age group are we talking? Oh, they get it all or. Yeah.

01;01;19;13 - 01;01;31;02
Speaker 1
No, the oldest guy maybe is 30. there's three of them are young families with kids. And then a couple a handful of college age boys.

01;01;31;04 - 01;01;31;27
Speaker 3
Yeah. Wow.

01;01;31;27 - 01;01;35;07
Speaker 2
There's another. And they're. And they're, like, complete atheist with nothing. And that.

01;01;35;07 - 01;02;02;14
Speaker 1
Age. Not necessarily complete atheist. Some of them, no religious affiliation previously. Yeah. Or or they, they grew up something and then they haven't been for a long time or they, you know, they like, were something and then they got really offended or angry or whatever. And then they're now they can consider themselves. Nothing's. But nothing doesn't work very well, does it?

01;02;02;16 - 01;02;03;19
Speaker 1
Right. No.

01;02;03;21 - 01;02;27;09
Speaker 3
No, no, doctor, the world truly is changing the way people are perceiving, involvement with quote unquote, religion. It's it's a it's an interesting phenomenon today to, to start looking at it's it's different than it was ten years ago, that's for sure the way people are approaching that. So, yeah. So, anyway, everybody check out if you can get into the church, show up early.

01;02;27;14 - 01;02;35;00
Speaker 3
Okay. Or, or just drive by and say a prayer of blessing, over the church. I'm sure father Mike would be all right.

01;02;35;03 - 01;02;54;14
Speaker 1
You know what? if you go to our website, the church website, Holy Nativity Church, aka Holy Nativity Church. Okay, you got my. There's my contact information. There's the service schedule there. You know, lots of daily. We have lots of services that have 2 to 5 people there.

01;02;54;14 - 01;02;58;26
Speaker 2
We go there like evening services. Right. People could come Wednesday morning.

01;02;58;29 - 01;03;02;25
Speaker 1
That's when it's crazy. Come Saturday night we have a Saturday night service.

01;03;02;25 - 01;03;05;28
Speaker 2
That's that a small group. And I'd be wonderful.

01;03;06;01 - 01;03;13;12
Speaker 3
Yeah. Very good. okay. Well, thank you so much. Marie. Always wonderful. Thank you so much, father Mike.

01;03;13;14 - 01;03;18;25
Unknown
And, guys. So next time, guys, it's.