Bridal Paradigm: The Nuts and Bolts of it All (aka "How We Do")

When it comes to the church, theology, and the Chrsitian life, sometimes we tend to talk in theory and principle, rather than practice. In this episode, Murray and Josh begin to explore what does it mean to understand the Bridal language of scripture and the mystics, and how do we apply all of that to our daily lives. The whole episode ends with Murray leading a contemplative exercise designed to bring you closer to the Father's heart.

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For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

00;00;09;08 - 00;00;19;13
Murray Dueck
In your mind, as you're hearing it, you're picturing all these Hulk Hogan and Macho Man, and it's like it just flashes. It's really quite a quite a brilliant.

00;00;19;16 - 00;00;40;19
Joshua Hoffert
Which is what gets us to Jesus prayer room. Right? Yeah. Short, captivating phrases that cause your mind to imagine something. So anyone really okay? Yeah. And there's certain phrases I. Really like. Way up, up and away. Oh, yes. For sure.

00;00;40;20 - 00;00;45;14
Murray Dueck
Up, up and away. Does anything else? Bring these up.

00;00;45;14 - 00;00;50;13
Joshua Hoffert
To talk to specific to talk things really well, any any catch phrase.

00;00;50;20 - 00;00;52;08
Murray Dueck
Just sound.

00;00;52;10 - 00;00;59;22
Joshua Hoffert
Where's the beef?

00;00;59;24 - 00;01;11;04
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody, to another episode. Voices from the desert.

00;01;11;06 - 00;01;23;29
Murray Dueck
Oh! Ooh! Although, if it was really a voice from the desert, it would be a monk crying in a cave or a hollow with. With weeping echoing off the walls of the cliffs.

00;01;24;02 - 00;01;25;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So,

00;01;25;23 - 00;01;29;23
Murray Dueck
Instead of instead of that. Well, I mean, he might be just doing the Jesus prayer.

00;01;29;25 - 00;02;01;09
Joshua Hoffert
What was. What was that? It was it. I think it was Pullman who, his one of his disciples stumbles in on him weeping and, you know, they don't disturb him for a while, but when they come back and ask him what happened. he doesn't want to tell them. And eventually they press him enough, and he says he was standing next to the Holy Theotokos, and he wished he could cry and weep and mourn as she did at the at the cross as Jesus was being crucified.

00;02;01;09 - 00;02;31;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right? and you're like, oh, so so you know that that the, the voice of the desert when it comes to the Desert Fathers and the contemplative tradition and Christian history, or as they are classically called, the mystics. Yeah, right. the you would hear the voice of the desert would be weeping and, and expressing fondness and affection for God.

00;02;31;08 - 00;02;44;11
Murray Dueck
I just had this story. I know it sounds a bit melancholy, but it went through my mind of, this this story of this guy. I guess he got kicked out of the monastery. I don't know what he did, but they booted him out. Right. Get out. Never come back.

00;02;44;16 - 00;02;44;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;02;45;02 - 00;02;58;10
Murray Dueck
So I guess he walks way down this cliff into some, like, hollow way down there. That's almost impossible. You'd have to climb down the cliffs to get there. And he's just laying down there weeping. And the other brothers are walking along and they hear this.

00;02;58;11 - 00;03;01;23
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, oh, oh, dying. And,

00;03;01;25 - 00;03;04;04
Murray Dueck
And so they. What are you doing down there?

00;03;04;04 - 00;03;06;17
Joshua Hoffert
Like, oh, yeah, died out here. I'm like,

00;03;06;20 - 00;03;12;08
Murray Dueck
So they drag him to, they go back and tell the abbot. Yeah, you know, and the abbot goes, okay, go get him. Bring him.

00;03;12;08 - 00;03;13;15
Joshua Hoffert
Back. Right.

00;03;13;18 - 00;03;17;11
Murray Dueck
I think they have to pack them up. This this cliff face to go get up. Right.

00;03;17;13 - 00;03;21;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's another voice of the desert. That's. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was thinking about that.

00;03;21;10 - 00;03;24;18
Murray Dueck
That's. What's that? We we. Who's that guy? They pack up the cliff face.

00;03;24;20 - 00;03;39;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Go on back. The voice of the desert is weeping. Yeah, yeah. And tears and and which which does actually kind of lead us to. Yeah. In a way to our topic of the day. Yeah a little.

00;03;39;21 - 00;03;45;05
Murray Dueck
Bit. Yeah a little bit. There is a little bit crossover. Maybe that's why it, it we kind of went up.

00;03;45;06 - 00;03;52;11
Joshua Hoffert
We kind of went there. Yeah. That's right. What's the the voice of the desert isn't the coyote howling. That's the, that's the thing is that the you know, it's funny.

00;03;52;11 - 00;03;53;28
Murray Dueck
That can be a jackal if it's.

00;03;53;28 - 00;03;56;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it could be a jackal if you're. Well, the desert.

00;03;56;17 - 00;03;58;10
Murray Dueck
And or Egypt.

00;03;58;12 - 00;04;32;02
Joshua Hoffert
In our in contemporary society, the desert is characterized as the lonely place. Right. Yeah, yeah. The dry, arid, lonely place and, and that's, you know, that's not untrue of the desert experience in the, in the early church times or biblical times. Right. But if you think about it's like, it's like we have these, we're so contemporary or modernized right where we think of a desert in light of the lack of people.

00;04;32;04 - 00;04;53;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And we only do that because we've gathered in cities with innumerable amount of people of people. Right. You're most of these guys that would go to the desert weren't living in, you know, Mumbai with 30 million people or Toronto with 8 million people. Right. Or LA with 30 million people. spread about. So it's shocking right.

00;04;53;21 - 00;05;14;02
Joshua Hoffert
So it's like today people go, oh, they went to the desert to be away from all the busyness of life, to be in solitude. Well, no, they didn't have the same kind of, contemporary distractions that we have, right? They didn't get away. They didn't go to get away from distractions. They went away to go to war.

00;05;14;04 - 00;05;14;28
Joshua Hoffert
That that was.

00;05;15;03 - 00;05;19;15
Murray Dueck
Quite a funny thought. It battled the demons. They called it that arena.

00;05;19;17 - 00;05;19;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;05;20;01 - 00;05;37;20
Murray Dueck
So what, you like a lot of cases, everyone would be our thoughts. I mean, you just think about, I mean, it would be good for everybody sitting out there right now. Just okay in this regard. Why don't we all just try to be quiet for 20s and just be absolutely still and just not let our mind wander?

00;05;37;20 - 00;05;43;09
Joshua Hoffert
20s good luck. Yeah. Good luck. Yeah.

00;05;43;12 - 00;05;54;04
Murray Dueck
It's almost impossible. But we have a culture, so based on distraction, we don't even know we're distracted. Yeah, well, they're going into the desert to boldly face this wandering mind and.

00;05;54;04 - 00;05;57;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Team it. That's right. Yeah. That's right.

00;05;57;06 - 00;06;16;10
Murray Dueck
And and it's such a different way. And you know what I was thinking because, you know, father Mike mentioned it a little bit, but but talking about, you know, distraction in modern culture and how it affects us, you know, everyone, it I think it's kind of good to think just a random thought here again. But since we're not preaching, you're allowed to do random thoughts.

00;06;16;13 - 00;06;23;13
Murray Dueck
it's good for a preacher soul to to sometimes not have segways. You just, very healing the Segways.

00;06;23;13 - 00;06;26;07
Joshua Hoffert
I think the the turn of phrase. Not the. Yeah.

00;06;26;09 - 00;06;27;13
Murray Dueck
Not the bike thing.

00;06;27;17 - 00;06;28;21
Joshua Hoffert
Not the bike thing. Yeah.

00;06;28;22 - 00;06;29;05
Murray Dueck
Whoever.

00;06;29;05 - 00;06;33;23
Joshua Hoffert
It's probably good for preachers not to have Segways too. They do too much preaching on their. Yeah.

00;06;33;26 - 00;06;56;20
Murray Dueck
So, just thinking about culture, like, like you just just reading again how how AI is going to disrupt society and how robots are going to disrupt society. And now they're talking about everyone's going to lose their jobs. And I think if we we spend that forward 20 years, I think we could all come up with a, a, a picture or fantasy in our minds of that might be a little bit fearful.

00;06;56;20 - 00;07;34;06
Murray Dueck
What am I going to do for a living? Or what's society going to be like either really, really good. You know, or bad? But see, the thing is, we don't understand that people in the biblical time would look at us and think, we're those people. Yeah, that that we're so busy and, and, and, and, you know, they would think that of a Victorian Victorian England or the Industrial Revolution or, or you know, even, you know, the Middle Ages or, the age of romanticism and we forget that we're we're still reading our Bible and having experience through a cultural mindset.

00;07;34;09 - 00;07;34;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;07;34;24 - 00;07;38;16
Murray Dueck
More dinner, more modernity, modernity. Thank you so much.

00;07;38;16 - 00;07;38;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;07;39;01 - 00;07;59;00
Murray Dueck
And and not realizing that the its influence is upon us. But I think if you spin it forward and we go, wow. I mean, what will human beings be like? Well, you know, the ancients would think of us as those people. And to read Scripture or have practices, which is what we're going to talk about today a little bit, that are very pre-modern.

00;07;59;02 - 00;08;10;10
Murray Dueck
Right. back to, you know, Jesus as the beloved healing the human soul. It's very easy not to have to work on your soul when you're, you know, you're doomscrolling.

00;08;10;18 - 00;08;39;17
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, yeah. Right. Or right? Right. Oh, that's you know, that's right. And, well, in a way where we are constantly disentangling from the influence of, could we say the spirit of the age? Yeah. The, you can call it because Scripture talks about this, the, the, the Greek term, the cosmic spirit, right? The spirit of the cosmos.

00;08;39;19 - 00;09;11;09
Joshua Hoffert
It's the thing that's influenced everything and every age. It's a little bit different, but it's it is where we are and we are constantly disentangling from the inter, the, the way we've been formed by modern society and, and, and like I remember reading one time in T right. talking about worldviews, and he's, he's writing about Paul and he goes, the problem with worldviews is that you have a worldview.

00;09;11;11 - 00;09;37;23
Joshua Hoffert
yeah. Yeah, right. You can't. He's going to have what? No, you're always gonna have one. You you're it's it's incredibly difficult for someone to take a step back from their worldview. It's not a thing you can disentangle yourself from. And like the the problem is. Right. It goes right down to the neuroscience of it, how your brain is formed and how it learns to interact and engage with the world.

00;09;37;25 - 00;10;01;18
Joshua Hoffert
And you can't stop it from doing that, right. You just you can't. And so you can't tell your brain to turn off the way that it interacts with the world and then assess how it interacts with the world. So usually you're confronted with your worldview when you're confronted with another worldview and realize how different someone else is or something else is.

00;10;01;18 - 00;10;07;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right. I think a great example is the, historian Tom Holland. When he.

00;10;07;17 - 00;10;08;01
Murray Dueck
Nice.

00;10;08;03 - 00;10;32;23
Joshua Hoffert
He starts out as an atheist, and now he's kind of a, he's I don't know that he would say he's actually Christian, but he lives as if he's a Christian because he realized in studying ancient history that the the world he was looking at was so vastly different than the world he lived in. And you couldn't credit pretty much anything else but Christianity for that.

00;10;32;25 - 00;10;55;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right? And so he's able to see another worldview goes, my goodness, that worldview was so chaotic, was so destructive, was so violent. And the world I live in is so different than that. Now it stands in contrast to that. Right? So I'm confronted with another worldview, and all of a sudden the way I see the world is, is becomes into stark contrast, right?

00;10;55;17 - 00;11;22;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And so you can't you can't really assess your worldview. And so, you know, we have when it comes to, living a spiritual life or as we've been working through, in these episodes on understanding the bridal paradigm in the, vis-a-vis, Jesus desires of people that he would experience, that would live in his heart from their hearts, right?

00;11;22;17 - 00;11;31;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And we see that in Scripture. We see that we've looked at that in the contemplative literature from the early church fathers to the Desert Fathers to everybody.

00;11;31;18 - 00;11;34;06
Murray Dueck
You just want to say that's a segue.

00;11;34;08 - 00;11;57;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's is a segue. Yeah. There you go. We looked at, what are the implications of that for the church? Right. Judicial witness, moral arbiter, place of healing? I think at this point, people that have been following the podcast would have listened to the conversations we had with a father, Mike, that were just, I thought, so enlightening about, yeah, my brain that and more.

00;11;57;09 - 00;12;23;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and so that that's that really is when we look at the kinds of practices that constitute a, a spiritual rhythm in your life, you know, if you will. I don't really like using the term discipline. one because, a discipline.

00;12;23;29 - 00;12;25;29
Murray Dueck
Again, what it means to us today.

00;12;25;29 - 00;12;28;05
Joshua Hoffert
What it means to us today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.

00;12;28;05 - 00;12;30;24
Murray Dueck
We, it's like a dirty word.

00;12;30;27 - 00;12;35;26
Joshua Hoffert
Well, it is, it's I'm a discipline is I'm doing something I don't want to do.

00;12;35;29 - 00;12;38;26
Murray Dueck
It's almost like, making a New Year's resolution.

00;12;38;29 - 00;12;40;00
Joshua Hoffert
It is. Yeah, it is.

00;12;40;00 - 00;12;40;26
Murray Dueck
And then who does that?

00;12;40;28 - 00;13;02;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it has and it has all these connotations, really what I'm and what I and I'm not I'm not trying to enact a discipline to like I go my discipline. if it's going to the gym, it's to gain muscle mass or to be more, bodily. My body is in better shape. I'm more fit.

00;13;02;24 - 00;13;38;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So spiritual disciplines don't have the same direct lineage of producing a result. So I don't spend time in, solitude and, have a well, I'm just better at quieting my mind. Thus it's not there doesn't direct. There's not like some direct correlation. Right. I, Dallas Willard, call it in the indirect method of spiritual growth. so I do in my own strength what I can't do in or by doing something in my own strength that enables me to do something I can't do in my own strength.

00;13;38;15 - 00;13;52;11
Joshua Hoffert
That's what you characterize as a discipline. So so I prefer, I like I prefer calling them rhythms because they really are rhythms of life. They're help to channel where we're going in a particular way. Right?

00;13;52;14 - 00;13;54;20
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And, and I like to.

00;13;54;23 - 00;14;19;22
Joshua Hoffert
I think it makes more sense to me to talk about the rhythms that I live my life from. And when those things are deeply rooted, it directs the course of my life in a particular way. Right. The the, the water channel is now moving along verses while I'm working out today, I got my workout in today. So because I got my workout in today, now I'll just wait until tomorrow, right?

00;14;19;25 - 00;14;47;10
Joshua Hoffert
And whereas a rhythm is a matter of life in a way that I live. So for instance, you know, we're going to talk as we get further and further along in this conversation, we'll talk about something, the kind of practices like saying the Jesus prayer right. and what I have found to be one of the side benefits to that is that I will spontaneously erupt in song in my in my insides, and sometimes it'll come out in quiet singing.

00;14;47;10 - 00;15;08;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right? But I'm frequently find myself singing rhythm. Yeah, those because of the rhythm I. Yeah, that's right. I frequently find myself singing this just in it's coming out kind of when I'm not even doing a thing. Holy and anointed one. Right. That song. Yeah. Holy and anointed one. or there's a few other songs that we'll just kind of.

00;15;08;00 - 00;15;28;18
Joshua Hoffert
I'll just. Fine. I'll just start. I'll just fine. I don't even intend to sing them. I'm not thinking about them. They just kind of bubble up. Right? Because I've got a rhythm established of of facilitating my life in a particular direction. And now this stuff germinates within me and without me even thinking it kind of comes up right now.

00;15;28;18 - 00;15;58;10
Joshua Hoffert
And, and so this is what we're talking about when we're coming from this. Okay. We've got a picture in Scripture of God calling a people to himself as a bride in covenant marriage. We've got language in the contemplative, literature in the mystics, and now we've got the church is a place of healing. So. So I guess what we're where we're at today in this episode is the the I want to I kind of want to title this episode the nuts and bolts.

00;15;58;12 - 00;16;10;04
Joshua Hoffert
and, we'll see if that's what I come up with. But it's like, well, how? Because I think this is the you. Yeah. We are. That's what I mean by that. Yes. the we're a bit nutty, right? And we don't fit.

00;16;10;05 - 00;16;17;24
Murray Dueck
As my Bruce reason used to say, prophetic can can be like a box of cereal full of nuts and flakes.

00;16;17;27 - 00;16;20;24
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, that's right. We very much is.

00;16;20;27 - 00;16;24;07
Murray Dueck
Which we which we very much. Yeah, resemble.

00;16;24;09 - 00;16;52;22
Joshua Hoffert
So what we wanted to but we want to. Some of the things we want to talk about is, how how do I do this? Yeah. I think people have that question. Right. Like, well, okay, Murray and Josh, you're talking about intimacy with Jesus. You're talking about the church as a place of healing. You're talking about, the the experience of divine sweetness, you know, looking at, how Simeon characterized things or, or Macarius the Great talking about being the bride.

00;16;52;24 - 00;17;15;17
Joshua Hoffert
so going through all this stuff. But but how do I live my life? It's it's because we're really good Western society. We're really, really good about talking about ideas, really good about talking about ideas, really bad about practicing those ideas. Yeah. Yeah, very, very poor practicing those. And that's one of the things you see when you can you read and start looking at the ancient world.

00;17;15;18 - 00;17;42;00
Joshua Hoffert
You're like, well you can't really separate the two as easily back then as you can today. so anyway, so we wanted to talk about some of the nuts and bolts and, and realistically it all kind of falls under this. We said this a few episodes ago that when we're talking about the bridal paradigm and this, this desire for God to create a bride for himself, like a like, Ephesians four.

00;17;42;00 - 00;18;07;04
Joshua Hoffert
Actually, I just read this, stood out to me. let's talk about this with some friends recently. Ephesians four says this, that, let's see. I know Ephesians five where it talks about Christ in the church, right? It says, that husbands love your wives just as Christ, though. So this is about Christ in the church, right, Paul?

00;18;07;04 - 00;18;33;19
Joshua Hoffert
So it makes that very clear in Ephesians five. This is he says, I'm not talking about marriages at the very end of this whole thing. I'm talking about Christ in the church, but it also applies to marriages. That's basically what he says. So, husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of the water of the word that he might present to himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that she should be holy and blameless.

00;18;33;22 - 00;19;02;23
Joshua Hoffert
So he gave her. He gave himself to her right first he gives himself to her, then that he might sanctify and cleanser, so that he might give herself back to him. right. So he gives himself to her in order to wash and cleanser that he might give her back to him. And this is what we're this is the kind of thing we're talking about, is that in Scripture, we see this clear picture that God longs for a bride that he would give him, give to himself.

00;19;02;25 - 00;19;15;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right? So he he gives himself in order to give her to himself. Right. And we're so often make us the center of the story when he's the center of the story. And, he's he's, you know, you give me all your.

00;19;15;12 - 00;19;17;27
Murray Dueck
A little animate there a little bit.

00;19;18;00 - 00;19;35;21
Joshua Hoffert
He is the center of the story. Humankind is not the center of the biblical story. God is the center of the biblical story. And and we put ourselves in the middle of the story. And he's the one in the middle of the story. So he gives himself, he cleanses, he sanctifies in order to give her to him because he's the he's the recipient and he's the giver.

00;19;35;21 - 00;20;10;15
Joshua Hoffert
He's the cleanser. He's doing all the action in everything. So all that to say is that when we talk about these things and we talk about the bridal paradigm, what we're talking about is not so much having an experience of God, but being experienced by God. And that's a very different context. How do I live? Not how do I live my life that I would have an experience and and you know, Marie and I, we've we've been no, it's not a hidden fact that we were raised and have been involved in the charismatic move for a long time.

00;20;10;17 - 00;20;33;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And we consider prophetic ministry a thing and all that. If that's socks you, then. Well, I don't know what to tell you. you shouldn't and but what one of the disturbing trends we notice in the church today in the Pentecostal charismatic tradition, at the very least, is that people chase and experience because they have this idea that the spiritual life is all about my experience.

00;20;33;11 - 00;20;57;26
Joshua Hoffert
And the idea is not what this is the idea when it comes to this bridal paradigm, in this living my life along a certain rhythm and a path. It's not that I am setting myself up like like I want to distill this. First is I don't I don't enact a practice in order to have an experience. I put a practice in my life to move my life in a way that God might experience me.

00;20;57;28 - 00;21;19;05
Joshua Hoffert
My end result is his experience, not mine and my my. The channel of my life is towards him, not towards me. All right. So that puts a real different context for, well, am I fasting so that I might hear better, or am I fasting so that I might present myself even more or be presented even more to him?

00;21;19;05 - 00;21;33;03
Joshua Hoffert
Not even present myself, but be present to even more to him? Right? So I, I practice things not to experience him, but I practice things so that he might experience me.

00;21;33;05 - 00;22;01;01
Murray Dueck
So yeah, let me let me biblically throw, throw an example out there. Yeah, yeah. So, a couple a couple of thoughts on that, you know, so, so everyone you're, you know, Paul's really, you know, beaten this drum in Ephesians, by the way. So, you know, if you look at Ephesians one, and I'll just quote it here quickly and then you get to what I really want to say about Ephesians one was that about 17, maybe a little bit past that, I pray God would give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation.

00;22;01;01 - 00;22;21;00
Murray Dueck
You may know the glorious father, right? And that the eyes of your heart would open, that you would know the hope of your calling, which is that that's bridal intimacy, his glorious inheritance in the saints. So what is Christ? Get out of it. He gets a bride. So, so again, and you have to look at that in the context of Ephesians one.

00;22;21;00 - 00;22;34;12
Murray Dueck
You've been adopted and predestined and chosen and called and filled with the spirit, and washed in the blood and seated in the heavenlies with Christ. And so that you may know the glorious father, and he may receive his glorious inheritance.

00;22;34;14 - 00;22;41;18
Joshua Hoffert
And actually, just, just a just I've got I pulled it up right here. It's not the hope of your calling. It's the hope of his calling.

00;22;41;18 - 00;22;43;12
Murray Dueck
Oh, see, I did not even write.

00;22;43;15 - 00;22;46;19
Joshua Hoffert
So even I was just saying that to further drive.

00;22;46;22 - 00;22;47;02
Murray Dueck
Home.

00;22;47;05 - 00;22;52;13
Joshua Hoffert
I'm looking at the, NASB. The hope of his calling, not the hope of your calling.

00;22;52;13 - 00;22;58;25
Murray Dueck
Wait a minute. I mean it it waits more. It makes way more sense in regards the next piece of that that I quoted about inheritance.

00;22;58;28 - 00;23;01;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it does hold on right.

00;23;01;19 - 00;23;05;18
Murray Dueck
I have to grab my Bible. It's right behind me, my NIV. I just want to see what that says.

00;23;05;20 - 00;23;13;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. Murray's grabbing his Bible. Yeah. So, we will pause for a second.

00;23;13;24 - 00;23;18;16
Murray Dueck
But, you know, go to show paradigm and belief system. How do we read things, you know, and,

00;23;18;21 - 00;23;19;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;23;19;25 - 00;23;22;12
Murray Dueck
I mean, I saw that second part.

00;23;22;14 - 00;23;26;07
Joshua Hoffert
let's just hope of his calling, the glory of his inheritance. It's all about him.

00;23;26;13 - 00;23;41;18
Murray Dueck
In order that you may know the hope to which he has called you. Okay, I would take that a little different. He has called you. It's still about you there in the NIV. But that's. Wait. To me, it reads way differently in in the end you just.

00;23;41;18 - 00;23;43;00
Joshua Hoffert
Read and then the new.

00;23;43;02 - 00;23;46;03
Murray Dueck
Way more sense the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints.

00;23;46;06 - 00;23;47;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, that's just.

00;23;47;28 - 00;23;50;00
Murray Dueck
More than what? Translation. That's right.

00;23;50;04 - 00;23;54;12
Joshua Hoffert
With us, the new King James is is the same as the NASB. The.

00;23;54;15 - 00;23;55;29
Murray Dueck
So fascinating.

00;23;56;01 - 00;23;56;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;23;56;21 - 00;24;08;00
Murray Dueck
So. Well, let me quote the other thing that it's important. So biblically speaking, it's good to get your heads around this. But if you look at a call of a prophet, what's the call of a prophet, we would say, to proclaim the future. I mean, that's what we would say.

00;24;08;02 - 00;24;12;22
Joshua Hoffert
No. Right? Not to call a prophet. Yeah.

00;24;12;24 - 00;24;28;21
Murray Dueck
I pray God, we give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation that you would know the glories, father. but. So just think through on it. We'll do it really quick. Okay? You guys have read that story. we're going to zip through it, but but just look at what's important to God here. Okay? So Nineveh, they kill people.

00;24;28;21 - 00;24;40;17
Murray Dueck
They build walls out of people's heads. God calls Jonah. Go preach that. he says no, because God will have to kill them if he doesn't do it. Because God looks for a man. Stand in the gap. And if you can't find one, he has to port his anger. So do you want to get on? The boat goes to Tarshish.

00;24;40;20 - 00;25;03;12
Murray Dueck
He's like, forget it, God will kill him because I got friends in those walls right? Swallowed by whale, spit up by whale preaches. Everyone repents. Okay, we got to the good part. So, when God sees everyone repent and that it translated, translated and God relented or repented himself. Okay, but that's not the Hebrew word there. And the word is Nahum.

00;25;03;12 - 00;25;11;07
Murray Dueck
And a the English sized version I means comfort. So David comforted by Sheba, oh, comfort, oh, comfort my people. That's that.

00;25;11;07 - 00;25;12;04
Joshua Hoffert
Word. Right?

00;25;12;04 - 00;25;32;21
Murray Dueck
So God has this incredible heart change. How did that happen? Because Jonah preached and never repented. So now look at. So God's heart is. Calm down. Hey, I'm feeling pretty good here. Jonah's ripping angry. I wish I would die. I knew you'd forgive all these people. And I knew you were going to kill him anyway. And? And he storms off.

00;25;32;21 - 00;25;47;20
Murray Dueck
God says you have any right to be anger. And he turns off into the desert, right? Yeah. And he's going to watch to see what's going to happen, because maybe God will wipe them out. And, you know, he's a reason to be angry. He's got friends in those walls, right? You want some Avenger? So as you know, quick version.

00;25;47;20 - 00;26;10;09
Murray Dueck
God causes a fine to grow up, give shade to his head. And Jonah loves the vine and God provides. Oh, Lord, thank you for your provision. A worm who eats the vine and kills it. And then the scorching east wind and Jonah's head goes, man, he wants to die again. We're getting close to the punchline. Important thought though, and God says, do you have any right to be angry about the vine?

00;26;10;12 - 00;26;31;12
Murray Dueck
symbolism that I'm angry enough to die? And basically, here's God's point, Jonah, as you love this vine, I love this city. And basically, as you feel about the vine, I would feel about the city if it died. And now here's here's the important thing. God didn't need to have this conversation with John. He didn't need to. The city repented.

00;26;31;15 - 00;26;54;14
Murray Dueck
Jonah fulfilled his mission. It was over. If it was a movie, the credits would be rolling. Everyone would be happily walking out of the movie theater because the mission is finished. But that's not the heart of God. The movie cameras follow Jonah out into the desert. Why? Because God cares about his prophet Jonah. And what did Jonah miss?

00;26;54;16 - 00;27;25;04
Murray Dueck
Jonah didn't realize that his ministry brought comfort to the heart of God and that God was his ministry target, not people, right? How he affected the heart of God and God was trying to show him that if he that it what that was. And see, we don't. When you're making your ministry about what you do rather than about your relationship, you completely miss that.

00;27;25;06 - 00;27;25;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;27;25;29 - 00;27;50;27
Murray Dueck
Because it isn't about the job, it's about the joy it brings. The master, the parable of the talents, right? Yeah. Enter into the joy of your master and and to to learn how to do that requires a relationship of be still and know that I'm God. That's working on the relationship and and that builds a prophetic ministry in the end because you build a relationship.

00;27;50;29 - 00;27;56;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Because it's about a relationship, not about the task.

00;27;56;18 - 00;27;57;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. You don't. Yeah.

00;27;57;29 - 00;27;59;08
Murray Dueck
It's I just had I had.

00;27;59;08 - 00;28;06;08
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I'm just thinking as you were, you know, distilling Jonah down to a few sentences, maybe he'd be mad at you for making a story.

00;28;06;08 - 00;28;07;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah, maybe. Sorry.

00;28;07;23 - 00;28;10;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Go. Jojo?

00;28;10;27 - 00;28;13;06
Murray Dueck
Oh, he's heard me preach it many times in depth, so.

00;28;13;06 - 00;28;17;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There we go. Yeah. Said, I want to hear it again. That's right, that's right. That's one.

00;28;17;16 - 00;28;20;13
Murray Dueck
Think everybody knows me for God. I'm. I'm more about that.

00;28;20;14 - 00;28;42;16
Joshua Hoffert
That thinking about the bridal paradigm as we just looked at in Ephesians five. and you were pulling that apart is God gives himself to Nineveh in the person of Jonah, right? God gave himself to her, the bride. God cleanses and sanctifies, which is what happened with no, no. When they when God gave himself, he gave his word right.

00;28;42;19 - 00;29;05;19
Joshua Hoffert
And Jonah was a visible representation of the gift of God to the people. And then God presents Nineveh back to himself. So purified. Right? Yeah. And so now we have this, this, this circular, circular, sorry, circular, cyclical presents himself, purify, sanctifies, presents them to himself. And now he does the same with Jonah, right.

00;29;05;19 - 00;29;07;27
Murray Dueck
Same exact thing with Joe Gibbs himself.

00;29;07;27 - 00;29;13;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right. This is divine. He is divine. Gives himself right. Oh, great and comfort. Right? Right.

00;29;13;20 - 00;29;14;15
Murray Dueck
Wallach. Work there.

00;29;14;15 - 00;29;41;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Then cleanses and sanctifies Jonah's, frustrated emotions. Right. And then brings Jonah back to the place where he presents Jonah back to himself. Right. So what he's done in Nineveh, he's also done in Jonah. Wow. And. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, we have Jonah. You know, ostensibly, we think, you know, Jonah. It just ends right there. And, you know, so, the the book of Jonah, it's, ostensibly the book of Jonah.

00;29;41;11 - 00;29;53;02
Joshua Hoffert
There was more chapters or there was a, we don't have all of the things in the Bible. Some of them weren't. That manuscript isn't complete, is what I'm saying.

00;29;53;02 - 00;29;54;21
Murray Dueck
Oh, man, I truly read the rest of it.

00;29;54;24 - 00;30;15;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So. So because he just. It just ends, right? It's not very. It's not a typical for a prophetic book. This is what I mean. And so there's certain it's like the beginning of Hebrews. Where is it? We probably don't have it because it has no beginning. It just launches right into its theological treatise. So, yeah. you know, that might be controversial for some people are going, well, the Bible is full and complete.

00;30;15;23 - 00;30;20;15
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah, it is. And there's parts of it that we don't have that God's totally happy with us not having.

00;30;20;15 - 00;30;22;29
Murray Dueck
So I bet you Ethiopians have it.

00;30;23;03 - 00;30;37;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, they might have it. That's right, that's right. So. So there's this there's this process. Right. So what are what are the how are what are the ways that we don't become like Jonah. Right. But we can live our life, you know. Well, it's.

00;30;37;29 - 00;30;45;20
Murray Dueck
Actually a very good example, Jonah and the examine in a way, because he completely missed, what brought to the heart of God.

00;30;45;22 - 00;30;59;08
Joshua Hoffert
And that's and then and so that is, that is, you know, there's another segue where I where segue is all over the place and, segue into one of the things we wanted to talk about today, which is the prayer of examine. Yeah.

00;30;59;13 - 00;31;06;29
Murray Dueck
Just everybody is just because you have some really practical how do you do it? How do we how you know, we're talking about it. How do they do it?

00;31;07;06 - 00;31;07;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;31;07;25 - 00;31;13;18
Murray Dueck
And and so we thought give you a at least one practical one today, maybe a bit more. We'll see what.

00;31;13;21 - 00;31;38;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It's. Yeah. What, what are the kinds of practices that we are employing on a consistent basis that, that, that we believe help facilitate or we found that help facilitate a, a life lived directed towards God, a God directed life. and so the prayer of examine is one of those practices. And, this is a simple practice.

00;31;38;02 - 00;31;58;09
Joshua Hoffert
You can you can, you can practice every day. You can practice it every week. You can practice it once a month. It's it is I mean it classically speaking, the prayer of examine is a daily practice. It's a daily rhythm. So it goes as far back as the Desert Fathers. It goes as far back as Scripture, actually.

00;31;58;12 - 00;32;19;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Like when David says, search me and know me right. This is basically the earliest form of the prayer of examen. So Psalm 139, search my heart and know me. So this, this knowledge is too wonderful for me. You know everything about me, my coming and my going, my sitting in my. Yeah, standing. Right. So this prayer of examine is typified in Psalm 139.

00;32;19;29 - 00;32;36;01
Joshua Hoffert
So find any way actually the the, I'm pretty sure it's the new King James or the NASB. Actually, I'm just going to read this quick in Psalm 139. where because it really is an early version of the prayer of examine, you know.

00;32;36;01 - 00;32;39;02
Murray Dueck
So much of the book of Psalms really is the exact it.

00;32;39;02 - 00;32;39;14
Joshua Hoffert
Is it.

00;32;39;14 - 00;32;43;21
Murray Dueck
Is man made me, oh, God. And no, I mean the wording even in Psalm 139 right there, like you said.

00;32;43;21 - 00;33;06;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So Psalm 139, 23 and 24 like, like, think about this, right? Search me. Oh, God. And know my heart. Try me and know my anxious thoughts and see if there is any hurtful way in me and lead me in the everlasting way. Amen. Right is there? And another way of translating that is there, is there? See if there is any way of pain within me.

00;33;06;25 - 00;33;31;07
Joshua Hoffert
The new King James says, see if there's any wicked way within me. And so I'm searching my God, search my heart, show me what I've done. Show me where I've been hurt, and show me how. Where I where I've lived. According to your, everlasting or your righteous way. So this is, in a nutshell, the prayer of examine in as early as the Book of Psalms, which is to use books.

00;33;31;10 - 00;33;50;17
Joshua Hoffert
So we've got that. We've got clear examples in, you know, tracking the trajectory of, the prayer of examining, you know, examining, in a way, the publican, when he who beats his breast and goes like, I'm not righteous before you at all, right? God, have mercy on me as he's.

00;33;50;17 - 00;33;51;14
Murray Dueck
Examining himself and.

00;33;51;15 - 00;34;14;23
Joshua Hoffert
He's examining himself. Right. That's the that's the context. Right? So we're looking at it going, this is, this is encouraged by Jesus, right? This is this is I mean, it's the Lord's Prayer, really. Right? It's it is, and, you know, show us our trespasses or forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

00;34;14;23 - 00;34;28;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Show me the ways that I have aired and, that I might come into a full knowledge of who you are. Right? Show me where I've aired. Show me where I've. Please do. This is the context of the Lord's Prayer. As well. So what we're talking about.

00;34;28;13 - 00;34;46;06
Murray Dueck
Is I for the exam. And I would say we could also for the, you know, consolation, desolation. We'll talk about that in a moment. If those words mean high in your low. but you could also say the parable of the talents fits in because it says enter into the joy of your master. Like, that's right, you know, you know.

00;34;46;06 - 00;34;55;08
Murray Dueck
So you look at your heart as to what what is needing healing. Yeah. You also look at in your heart what's brought the Lord joy.

00;34;55;10 - 00;34;55;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;34;55;24 - 00;35;01;16
Murray Dueck
That's right. And learning to to be aware of this daily walk with God.

00;35;01;18 - 00;35;29;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right. So I'll, I'll read a, a oh here's, here's one quote that kind of sets the stage for what we're talking about as well. This is, a, from, an Orthodox author called Zacharias. He's, writing about the teachings of sovereignty of Essex, who was a, a, Arthur Knight monk in the late 1900s or.

00;35;29;09 - 00;35;36;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, late. No, early 1900s into, I think, sovereign. He lived till about 1950s something or other.

00;35;36;26 - 00;35;39;01
Murray Dueck
In England, I think. Right. Yeah.

00;35;39;03 - 00;36;03;05
Joshua Hoffert
he was well, he was in Athens, right. Monk for a while. So. So. And then eventually. So I don't remember where he ended up. Ended up. but but, so Zacharias says this about saffron, his teachings. It is by the intensity of their yearning that the Desert Fathers would measure their spiritual progress, rather than the number of years they had lived in renunciation of the world, the intensity of their yearning.

00;36;03;10 - 00;36;27;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So we were talking about the the practices. The practices are really a way to channel your desire for God in a productive, not productive, the wrong kind of word, but in a way that opens you up to him and makes you available to him. And, the examine is a good way of doing that. So here's a quote from an anonymous desert father.

00;36;27;11 - 00;36;48;17
Joshua Hoffert
This quote would have been around the fourth century. and here's this is typifies what we're talking about with, the examine says this. An old man said every evening and every morning a monk ought to render an account of himself and say to himself, what have we not done of what God does not want? And what have we done of that which God wills?

00;36;48;19 - 00;37;18;26
Joshua Hoffert
In this way he must live in repentance. This is what it means to be a monk. And this is how all our seniors used to live. And and this is actually the, the, in, in a, in a way, the liturgical church, you know, Anglican, Orthodox, Catholic, they have a leg up on us. Lutheran. Yes. Have a leg up on us charismatics because baked within their liturgical service, the Prayer of Humble Access, which talks about.

00;37;18;26 - 00;37;42;28
Joshua Hoffert
Lord, forgive us for all the things we have done and for all the things we have left undone. Right. And so we've got this kind of self searching type of language right within the, the, the weekly practice of the liturgy or daily if you're going to daily prayer offices. But that kind of language is baked right into the system, the liturgical system.

00;37;43;00 - 00;38;04;26
Joshua Hoffert
And, you know, I remember trying to when I first kind of set out in my mid 20s to go, I'm going to start praying now because I, I'd been encountered by God, although back then I would have said I, I encountered God, but I know now he encountered me and and everything started to change. And so I wanted to spend time in silence with him.

00;38;04;26 - 00;38;23;20
Joshua Hoffert
And I remember sitting down and just giving up within 30s. Right. And I realized that there was no I didn't have language, expression, form, format or anything. Right. And the charismatic Pentecostal thing, you're supposed to speak in tongues and have exuberant experiences. So how was I supposed to fabricate that? Right? I couldn't, and so matter.

00;38;23;20 - 00;38;33;17
Murray Dueck
Of fact, I was taught, in my Mennonite upbringing, although I, I'm pretty sure they disavowed this. never steal your mind because the devil will get it.

00;38;33;19 - 00;38;37;07
Joshua Hoffert
Sure. I'm sure that would have been somewhere bouncing around in my head as well.

00;38;37;12 - 00;38;51;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And even even in in the, in the charismatic movement, I, I've, I've definitely heard that you speak in tongues never choir mind like it's like, oh you know, where'd that come from considering, you know Psalm 4610. I believe. Right. Be still and right I am right.

00;38;51;22 - 00;38;53;19
Joshua Hoffert
The Bible's just wrong then, right?

00;38;53;21 - 00;38;56;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. That's right. Like, let's just throw that whole thing out.

00;38;56;28 - 00;39;14;05
Joshua Hoffert
All right? So we find we find things like the prayer of examen. We'll talk about the Jesus prayer. We can talk about the the six. I think there's six predominant, quote unquote disciplines or rhythms that the Desert Fathers practiced fasting, solitude, prayer.

00;39;14;11 - 00;39;14;15
Murray Dueck
In.

00;39;14;15 - 00;39;44;13
Joshua Hoffert
Their remembrance of God, remembrance of death. like due to Venus. Another one. So these, these kind of rhythms that help to, move you into a place where God is essentially gaining the greatest amount of you that he can and, well, he can always. It's like he has an inability, but we can withhold ourselves. So how do we live a life where he's experiencing us?

00;39;44;13 - 00;40;08;20
Joshua Hoffert
It's going back to the great. I think it's the Moravian, the Moravian prayer that the Lamb of God would receive the reward of his sufferings. And, that that kind of language stirs me. And so now that I'm stirred. Right. Well, okay. The stirring creates an energy. The energy can create a practice. The practice can create a rhythm.

00;40;08;20 - 00;40;23;17
Joshua Hoffert
The rhythm can direct me in a God directed way. Yeah. So if I'm just constantly stirred, but with no rhythm and practice being directed in a certain way, it eventually fizzles. And it's like. It's like the water just dissipates. Yeah.

00;40;23;18 - 00;40;30;25
Murray Dueck
Think of it like going into water. Think of it like what you're never supposed to do with a firecracker. When you light it is wrap your hand around it.

00;40;30;27 - 00;40;31;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;40;31;21 - 00;40;46;22
Murray Dueck
If you hold a firecracker in your hand and keep your hand open, don't try this at home. Anybody? you know, it'll make a loud boom. But but, you know, all the power dissipates because it's not within a practice. But if you close your hand around that firecracker. Oh my goodness.

00;40;46;25 - 00;40;48;27
Joshua Hoffert
The explosion under your hand.

00;40;49;00 - 00;41;10;02
Murray Dueck
Would blow right off. But so in other words, God can release power. an encounter. But if we don't have a practice to hold it in, right? That power, it just dissipates. Yeah. And it's like, well, what happens, you know, and I know the old Pentecostal saying, I heard this one guy say, father Barnabas Powell, some of you would like to watch him.

00;41;10;02 - 00;41;21;12
Murray Dueck
He converted to Orthodoxy, and he was a right, straight up Pentecostal. And he says he says in his community, they used to have a saying, it's not how high you jump, but it's how far you walk straight after you hit the ground.

00;41;21;14 - 00;41;23;23
Joshua Hoffert
And, right. And,

00;41;23;25 - 00;41;44;19
Murray Dueck
And you know, that's true. And sometimes we jump from experience to experience the experience rather than building an ability to walk straight. Like, what do we do with this? Yeah. So, you know, these ancient practices really, bring us to the throne. And maybe I'll say that one more way, if you don't mind. so. So everyone with father Mike, because we're this.

00;41;44;19 - 00;42;06;24
Murray Dueck
I'm sure this will be after that episode, because he was last week. You know, we talked about these layers of being. And there's one point in there when, like, he talked about that, you know, the body. Okay. Then you have the rational mind. This thinking part that likes to wander everywhere and wants to plan and do. And then you have, of the seat where Christ dwells, which would be the heart or the noose, right?

00;42;06;29 - 00;42;25;23
Murray Dueck
Or man. So we would use the term inner man. So and, and I'll just, you know, just do Ephesians one. sorry. Three here, quick. Paul's in prison. People are freaking out. And he says to them, I pray God would strengthen you in the inner man so Christ may dwell in your heart by faith if you're pointing with your finger, everybody where that is.

00;42;25;25 - 00;42;47;25
Murray Dueck
So you would know how high and wide and long and deep is the love of God that surpasses head knowledge, that you may be filled to all the fullness of Christ. So there's there's this inside out flow. So what? So in context of what we're talking about, the examen lexia divina, the power. So, so we can have these encounters.

00;42;47;28 - 00;43;07;26
Murray Dueck
But but to learn to bring our hearts into the presence of God so that we can just allow to to, let him love us. Just let him love us. So if you've if you've ever sat in front of a, a, a beautiful sunset, you know, you're not going. Oh, well, you're not saying to the next person beside you.

00;43;07;26 - 00;43;28;09
Murray Dueck
Oh, well, you see that sunset? Look at that color. Orange. Oh my goodness, look at that. That person would go, shut up. I'm trying to enjoy this right. But when you stay in your head, that's what you're doing. But there's these deeper parts where we're just enjoying being with our friend. So when you do something like the examine which will break down here in a minute, or these others, the idea is your heart warms up, you know?

00;43;28;09 - 00;43;47;02
Murray Dueck
Right? This inner part gets filled with love, as the Desert Fathers would say, the heart is like a bowl of soup. If it gets cold, the flies get in. If you keep it hot, it drives the flies away. Your only job is to keep your heart hot. Favorite quote? Yeah, I don't know where it is because I don't write things down.

00;43;47;04 - 00;44;06;26
Murray Dueck
And, Josh and I had a big talk about that earlier, so, but but the point is, you warm your heart up in love. And as it does, and you do these exercises, you. Oh, you have memories come to mind. Encounters with God come to mind. His word opens up before you. And it creates this longing. It creates this heart.

00;44;06;26 - 00;44;07;27
Murray Dueck
Hot.

00;44;08;00 - 00;44;08;24
Joshua Hoffert
Hot hearts. Right.

00;44;08;24 - 00;44;30;09
Murray Dueck
Excuse me. And then you can just stay there with the Lord, right? You just learn to be with him, in a place where your heart is hot. So and so. In other words, you're moving out of your rational mind, and you're moving to a deeper place in your being and learning to live there, which is something our culture does not prepare for us, or even the church necessarily.

00;44;30;12 - 00;44;30;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right at.

00;44;30;28 - 00;44;41;10
Murray Dueck
All. And so that's why this little activation is good. It it brings us through, a place where we're dwelling with the Lord in a deeper aspect of our being.

00;44;41;12 - 00;45;18;01
Joshua Hoffert
But let me, let me I was sharing an example, with Murray before we started recording. As we were talking about this, let me share that example. to set the stage for what you're going to talk about. just because Murray's going to lead us through a little practical exercise. the when when my wife and I were, before we were wife and I, and we were, boyfriend girlfriend and then engaged, I was in my, I don't know, the latter part of my 20s.

00;45;18;01 - 00;45;46;04
Joshua Hoffert
I think I was 20, what, 29, 28, 28 or 29 when we got married? 28. so, you know, I'm 27 or so, so I'm getting a little bit better with male communication, but still. Yeah, still wrestling with communication, you know, so you women out there, you just got to give us guys a little bit longer to learn how to actually talk.

00;45;46;11 - 00;46;10;29
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know, it's, it's not a it when, when you ask us how our day was and we say, good, it's not because we don't want to talk about it. It's that's so accurately describes how our day was. So anyway, when Aaron and I were dating, we would, you know, I would say something or do something that Aaron wasn't okay with.

00;46;11;02 - 00;46;14;10
Joshua Hoffert
And, rather just.

00;46;14;10 - 00;46;16;06
Murray Dueck
Told me some of them personally just.

00;46;16;11 - 00;46;36;25
Joshua Hoffert
Do it. Yeah. And so rather than, Yeah, I have no problem talking about them, just for the sake of brevity. So rather than Aaron going to me the next day and saying, hey, you did this thing and it hurt me, or you said this thing and it hurt me, or you did that, or you said that I wasn't comfortable with it.

00;46;36;28 - 00;46;56;22
Joshua Hoffert
can we talk about it? Aaron would pray and she would ask the father. She would say, Lord, I'm not okay with what Josh said or did, and I'm not okay with how we left that. would you make him talk to me about it? Ha. Right. And so this how.

00;46;56;22 - 00;46;58;08
Murray Dueck
Much pull Aaron has with.

00;46;58;08 - 00;47;19;15
Joshua Hoffert
God. Yeah. And that's the main moral. And that is the main moral of the story. Be very afraid. Yeah. and and so then, you know, the next day would roll around, I would be spending time in prayer, and I would just go, man, I feel bad for what I said. Like, I think I have feelings. I think I need to say something, I need to apologize.

00;47;19;17 - 00;47;33;22
Joshua Hoffert
And so then I'd go to her and, you know, and say, hey, can we talk about what I said? Can we talk about what happened? And I'm, you know, I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't done that. Whatever. you know, I was just I was praying about it, and I was like, this wasn't.

00;47;33;22 - 00;47;47;10
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. I'm sorry about that. And eventually Aaron told me, oh, yeah. I knew you would come to me. She didn't tell me the first time, so I knew you would come to me and say that because I told God that he needed to talk to you about that. And I was like, one. And she's like, oh, yeah.

00;47;47;10 - 00;48;01;28
Joshua Hoffert
All those times where you came to me, I told God, you need you need to have him. I don't want to bring it up to him. I want him to bring it up with me. And, and inevitably, I would, right not. I wasn't, like, super spiritual anything. It was just like, I just this conviction would come over me.

00;48;02;01 - 00;48;24;12
Joshua Hoffert
I'd be thinking about the previous day, and I wasn't even trying to practice the prayer of examen. I was just thinking like I was wrong, you know, I, I need to apologize for that. And so my point in saying all that is that, you know, it's a simple example that I search my heart, right? I find things that have hindered the relationship from flowering and fostering.

00;48;24;14 - 00;48;43;20
Joshua Hoffert
And so I go and make amends. And then the relationship builds upon itself, right? Day by day, little by little, trust is established, a rhythm is enabled or is established. And we're starting to now grow in intimacy and tenderness and affection for each other. Right. This, that, in a way, it's a simple example of how the prayer of examine.

00;48;43;20 - 00;48;59;15
Joshua Hoffert
Although I like I said, I wasn't consciously trying to practice Lord, show me what I did or didn't do. Lord, show me what I've done pleasing to you. It's not pleasing to you, but it would just naturally arise. And I would think about my relationship and go, I wasn't okay with that, right? I need to make that right.

00;48;59;22 - 00;49;12;20
Joshua Hoffert
So what it did is it removed the barriers for intimacy to increase and for tenderness to flourish. And that's really an example of what the prayer of examen is intended to do.

00;49;12;23 - 00;49;13;00
Murray Dueck
Yes, it.

00;49;13;07 - 00;49;37;21
Joshua Hoffert
Removes the barriers, right? It removes the hindrances and sets the stage again, because God is drawing you, God is wooing you. We are. We lean into that. And now in in our experience, we are experienced by him. and I was, you know, I wasn't under if I was just thinking about that today. Like, that was kind of a really good example of that.

00;49;37;23 - 00;49;55;03
Murray Dueck
And, you know, maybe I'll add just another spin to that too. So, so everybody, when we think about conviction, where do we experience conviction? And it's not just a mental thing. There's like, oh, wait a minute. There's something, you know, we feel it in our hearts. We feel it in your inner man. Right? If we want to put it that way.

00;49;55;06 - 00;50;19;19
Murray Dueck
And then as we go, oh, okay. And then we start to break it down as to why and thoughts come and, you know, how do we fix this? And what do we do? But but there's this real relationship with the Lord going on in the inner man. but but that fills out, maybe I should say, because, in the inner man is also joy and peace and confidence, right?

00;50;19;19 - 00;50;40;23
Murray Dueck
Love and all these other things that we could be picking up as strongly as conviction. But unfortunately, often in the in the Protestant church, we believe conviction is kind of there and everything else is external. All right. When that's not true. But but you can grow in these things. And, Why? Because the Lord dwells in the inner man.

00;50;40;24 - 00;50;49;17
Murray Dueck
He dwells in the heart and and just to to to learn to live there. And these examines, you know, rhythms, help us with this.

00;50;49;21 - 00;50;51;27
Joshua Hoffert
So.

00;50;52;00 - 00;51;04;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So let's talk about the examine a little bit. Yeah. And what we'll do this so everyone so the examine if you want to nail it down to a guy it's kind of connected to just because we should give a shout out because it'll be one.

00;51;04;14 - 00;51;15;02
Joshua Hoffert
Who codified the term and, and some of the specifics of the practice. Yeah. You find it there in Scripture. You find it in the Desert Fathers. But yeah, when we say prayer, examine, there's a particular tradition we're pulling off of.

00;51;15;07 - 00;51;43;16
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Which is Ignatius of Loyola. That's right. Is the first of the Jesuits. and I wrote something called The Spiritual Disciplines, which is probably 1530s, maybe a bit later. It's right there. And just these ways of, of, of being with God. So great book, everyone. If you're really you're interested in digging around in that kind of stuff because I am I would like to think of myself as a spiritual archeologist sometimes.

00;51;43;19 - 00;52;05;14
Murray Dueck
So great. book, called the The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything by. I wasn't thinking of saying his name. Martin is his last name, but, but maybe a better one if you're very interested in this. That's a great book, everyone. I think it's good to look at these, these sources, but a vineyard guy named Charles Bellow.

00;52;05;14 - 00;52;19;23
Murray Dueck
Bellow called prayer is a place, right? And and, basically God says to him, he's working super, super hard as a vineyard pastor. And God says, Charles, if you don't let me love you, you're not going to make it. And he goes, what? What do you mean? Look at all the stuff I'm doing.

00;52;19;23 - 00;52;20;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;52;20;12 - 00;52;27;05
Murray Dueck
Like, and, and then he basically burns out and he realizes, oh, God, didn't want all my stuff. He wanted me.

00;52;27;12 - 00;52;28;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's right and true.

00;52;28;14 - 00;52;45;26
Murray Dueck
And then so in that book, learn about season, sabbatical, rhythm, lectio divina and the examen, written in a very modern vineyard kind of way. So I'd really recommend that book, Charles Bello Blow Prayer a place, but so let's let's walk through it. Well, let me.

00;52;45;28 - 00;52;58;08
Joshua Hoffert
Let me just, let me just say one disclaimer for, you know, we have maybe we have people following the journey who are going what Jesuit practices are right going. Are you like those Catholic guys? Aren't those?

00;52;58;11 - 00;53;02;01
Murray Dueck
Remember, they took the early church practices, everybody, and they just codified it.

00;53;02;01 - 00;53;02;26
Joshua Hoffert
So, so.

00;53;02;26 - 00;53;06;13
Murray Dueck
And Ignatius Loyola was put through the Inquisition, just so you know.

00;53;06;14 - 00;53;35;28
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. So, well, all I want to say is, I'm, I'm less interested in seeing if someone like Ignatius got every one of their thoughts right. I'm more interested in what he has to offer me that helps me live a God directed life. Yeah. And so it's to to Murray and I. It's not. Okay. I need to agree with every theological presupposition of every person I read.

00;53;35;28 - 00;53;53;07
Joshua Hoffert
That would be an exercise in madness. I think it was, almost Sarah, one of the desert Mothers, who said, if I should desire that, I'd be a peace with all men. I'd go to every single door and apologize for being myself. Rather, I'll just try and be a peace with God. Wow. And. Yeah, that one.

00;53;53;07 - 00;53;54;10
Murray Dueck
More time, I. Yeah.

00;53;54;12 - 00;54;11;01
Joshua Hoffert
The I'm characterizing it a little bit, but that's, that's essentially what she says. So if I were to desire to be at peace with all men, I would go, I would have to go and knock on every door and apologize for being myself. rather, I'll just try and make peace with God. Brilliant. So constant. So knocker.

00;54;11;02 - 00;54;44;03
Joshua Hoffert
It is brilliant. Yeah. so so we're not looking at. Do we agree with everything a Jesuit teaches or someone like Ignatius teaches? That's not even the question on our mind. It's. Does he have a helpful practice that channels us in a way where we encounter God in a continual basis? Yes. He does. Okay, great. That's I'm way more concerned about that than making sure we agree on every single theological presupposition, because that's a fool's errand to try and figure that one out.

00;54;44;06 - 00;55;00;25
Murray Dueck
And, you know, you got to think of it like this. Everybody, you got to take the meat and spit out the bones, right? Yeah. And, and and so I'm, I'm kind of a vineyard guy. I'd still consider myself a vineyard guy or catch the fire kind of guy, you know, you know what? I would go and have Benny Hinn pray for me in a heartbeat.

00;55;00;28 - 00;55;02;01
Murray Dueck
I, I, we.

00;55;02;01 - 00;55;04;00
Joshua Hoffert
Pray, I quit a podcast. I'm done.

00;55;04;00 - 00;55;06;00
Murray Dueck
It. And, that's.

00;55;06;02 - 00;55;09;08
Joshua Hoffert
Where you push the limit one too many times there. Yeah.

00;55;09;08 - 00;55;30;01
Murray Dueck
And you're early on, he prayed for me. I was a good Mennonite guy. I didn't know anything about other charismatic movements. He came to town and he picked me out of a crowd. And Bob's your uncle and, you know, really imparted some things. And you know what? I think a lot of his theology is probably heretical. And, you know, I mean, he's kind of, you know, I don't have a power suit.

00;55;30;01 - 00;55;52;07
Murray Dueck
I don't have a stretch limo, I don't have bodyguards. I don't wear collarless suits. I don't, you know, I'm not the one guy on the stage doing all the ministry. But did the Lord and part something to me, worthwhile in my cultural style? Yeah, that I can use. Absolutely. So. But. And you know, his book. Good morning of the Holy Spirit's pretty good, everybody.

00;55;52;10 - 00;56;11;17
Murray Dueck
but, yeah, you got to take the meat and spit out the bones. You know, you do that discerning and community, you bounce it off people that are your moms and dads, and you go back to Scripture. you check the fruit of the spirit, inner witness confirmation. You go through the five, right? And, and, and, but it's but it's important and.

00;56;11;22 - 00;56;26;11
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Because the spirit speaking in the church and, and I think sometimes we forget that in the Catholic Church, which we, we don't talk too much about them, but a lot of their spirit filled people all went through the Inquisition, right? They they paid the price.

00;56;26;13 - 00;56;26;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;56;26;22 - 00;56;52;13
Murray Dueck
And, and I think sometimes we, we forget that. So anyway, so, yeah, that, you know, he codified it, let's just say. But it's an early church practice going way, way back. But he codified it, and and it kind of goes like this. I'll, I'll give you the gist to know what you're getting into first. So, we have, consolations and desolations.

00;56;52;13 - 00;57;05;14
Murray Dueck
So again, I like Charles Bellows version better. He called the highs and the lows. Let's just call it like that. Constellation. The high of your day. Desolation. The low of your day. Right? Yeah. And and you got.

00;57;05;14 - 00;57;08;22
Joshua Hoffert
To remember it. It was like the 1500s when Ignatius. Yeah. Right in this. Right.

00;57;08;22 - 00;57;10;28
Murray Dueck
So when they use those, that kind of language. Right.

00;57;11;05 - 00;57;12;16
Joshua Hoffert
high and low.

00;57;12;19 - 00;57;27;20
Murray Dueck
High and low is good. And so, so I'll just kind of go through it to your brain knows where we're going here, right? We need that the rational part of our mind to go. Oh, okay. So so what you do and they would do this actually if you're Jesuit at lunch and in the evening at least twice a day.

00;57;27;20 - 00;57;29;11
Murray Dueck
But I think in the evenings when I do the.

00;57;29;12 - 00;57;34;29
Joshua Hoffert
One of the Desert Fathers we were looking at said, morning and evening and then every sixth hour.

00;57;35;01 - 00;57;57;16
Murray Dueck
Oh, well, there you go. A but, and, you know, maybe we'll just mention that we'll come back to that in a minute. So, so what you do, end of your day, you just sit with the Lord and you, you know, you do your worship, you do your Bible reading, you do everything you do. And then you you add this in, you know, where in your day, what brought you joy?

00;57;57;18 - 00;57;59;21
Murray Dueck
What made you feel alive?

00;57;59;24 - 00;58;00;23
Joshua Hoffert


00;58;00;25 - 00;58;25;27
Murray Dueck
And and you sit down and you just allow yourself to experience that again. And you ask the Lord, Lord, why did this bring me so much joy? Why did it make me feel alive? And you allow your heart to be thankful, right? So the high right and I Murray eyes this or I call it Samuel Mental eyes. And I add a couple questions and yeah, that's good.

00;58;25;29 - 00;58;49;18
Murray Dueck
And and you stay there and just be thankful. Just again you're moving at your heart. Thankfulness. Right. Thankfulness. And then you do your desolation, your low. So what in your day made you feel like you got angry at somebody? You failed. You're beating yourself up. You, you know, stepped in anxiety, and you allow yourself to step right back into that.

00;58;49;20 - 00;59;19;21
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I say, Lord, Lord, why did this triggered me so much? And you allow God to love you? There? And then step into thankfulness. And, I, I like to add this question and Lord, in my day, what brought you joy? What brought you joy? Because it could be the thing on your list. but it might not be.

00;59;19;21 - 00;59;42;14
Murray Dueck
And I just sit in thankfulness. Okay. Now, why is this, a powerful activation and very important for us? One. I mean, I can bet you right now, if you're a Western, modern Christian in a Western paradigm, but based on success and achievement, when we looked at that destination and stepped back into it, you went, oh.

00;59;42;16 - 00;59;43;17
Joshua Hoffert
Oh my goodness.

00;59;43;20 - 01;00;18;25
Murray Dueck
And and that's why it's important to do it. Why is that? Because our relationship with God isn't based on success or failure. It's based on parenting. How do you love your kids when they fail, right. How you kids. And and the problem is, if we don't let God love us where we're broken or fail, and we're not willing to look him in the face because we didn't measure up, we're still making our relationship with God about our performance or our deeds, and we're still living under the law.

01;00;18;28 - 01;00;24;27
Murray Dueck
Not as, a bride being cleansed by his her, his groom, her grace.

01;00;24;28 - 01;00;25;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

01;00;25;22 - 01;00;51;21
Murray Dueck
In my case, his groom. Yes. Or. Oh, that's semantics. And we're. And see what happens is we become performance orientated and just to allow God to love you see, back to, bride of Christ thinking and be back to church as a medical, therapeutic way of doing life. See this is a therapeutic model, and we're for living under a justice model.

01;00;51;21 - 01;01;10;29
Murray Dueck
Really? Oh, I didn't live up. Oh, my goodness, I can't do that. He might be mad at me. I, I make a judgment. I don't want to do that. But you see that. That's you gotta poke that stuff up. That is a bad belief system. It's not biblical. It's not a biblical belief system. And this activation is brilliant because it reveals it.

01;01;11;02 - 01;01;34;28
Murray Dueck
And we have to learn to come to the Lord in our brokenness and let him love us just as much as in our successes. That's becoming bridle, and that's allowing your heart to be transformed into the image of Christ. You can't transform something you don't give to him. And if something's broken, it doesn't transform. If you just shove it in a desk and don't pretend it's there.

01;01;35;01 - 01;01;48;28
Murray Dueck
And so that's why I love the examine. It treats my relationship as bridle, and it helps me see the church is therapeutic, and it reveals in myself where I'm not living like that.

01;01;49;04 - 01;01;49;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;01;50;01 - 01;01;57;20
Murray Dueck
And to do it every day begins to build a habit where you start to do it automatic in the moment. Right? With God.

01;01;57;22 - 01;01;58;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;01;58;25 - 01;02;21;04
Murray Dueck
Rather than and see you again with prophecy. The other problem is that the examiner helps you with if you think God speaks and it's only about the future, you miss God in the midst of your day because you're only ever looking into it. Something that hasn't happened yet. That's right. Rather than learning to live in the moment and catch with the father's doing right now in the breath, you're on.

01;02;21;07 - 01;02;21;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;02;21;25 - 01;02;37;10
Murray Dueck
And as you practice the examine that starts to happen. You start to live in the moment. So it does all those kinds of things. So it's a very beautiful, early church, very early church. And I would suggest as, as I said earlier, right back into the book of Psalms.

01;02;37;12 - 01;02;37;24
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah.

01;02;37;25 - 01;02;55;21
Murray Dueck
We see it with Jesus too, but it pulls you back together and it reveals things. It in our belief system that need to be revealed, brings healing to the heart, sets us into a therapeutic model, brings us into the Bride of Christ paradigm. It does all that stuff. it brings hearing God's voice into the present.

01;02;55;23 - 01;03;20;07
Joshua Hoffert
So yeah. Well, and one of the, one of the quote I read from, the anonymous desert father from the anonymous sayings, and when he says, what have we not done and what have we done right? What have we done that pleases him, that God wills? What have we done that doesn't please him? And, and and the anonymous as her father says this, in this way he must live in repentance.

01;03;20;09 - 01;03;45;09
Joshua Hoffert
And, and this is one of the things that we misunderstand about repentance, where repentance is characterized as a moment of time, that is a that arises from guilt, feelings, as opposed to a lifestyle of catching every thought and, and directing myself to him. Right, and directing my thoughts to him.

01;03;45;11 - 01;03;46;19
Murray Dueck
Which is healing of the heart.

01;03;46;19 - 01;03;48;21
Joshua Hoffert
Which is healing of the heart and changing of the inner.

01;03;48;21 - 01;03;50;17
Murray Dueck
Man, which is therapeutic.

01;03;50;20 - 01;04;27;03
Joshua Hoffert
And bridle it's therapeutic and bridle. Exactly. If I if I was only amending my my way of thinking when I wronged my wife. Versus learning to accommodate who she is. Yes Lord. Right I then what am I doing. I am, I'm essentially devaluing the relationship and treating it as platonic. Not even worse than platonic at that point where it's, it is a, it's a then a servant master relationship.

01;04;27;05 - 01;04;49;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. And and I don't actually value the person. So, quote from a dessert Father Agatha on, fourth century Agatha. Almost one of the key players and Agatha on had a real grasp on what, a real the love of God had had so arrested. Agatha on that Agatha on was known as a man who. He said this.

01;04;49;27 - 01;05;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
he said if I could exchange my body with that of a leper, I would it be. I would be happy for that. Indeed is perfect. perfect. Love. Wow. If I could exchange my body with that of a leper, I would be happy. Because that indeed is perfect love. And. And he's not lying about that, you know, he's not just fabricating that.

01;05;06;20 - 01;05;29;06
Joshua Hoffert
And so this is Agatha. I'm so arrested by the tenderness of the father's heart that he would have given himself to a leper to cleanse the leper. Right, taking the disease upon himself, which is really the gospel. And so Agatha answered this right. in regards to all that we've been talking about, he said, under no circumstances should the monk let his conscience accuse him of anything.

01;05;29;06 - 01;05;55;14
Joshua Hoffert
Now you can just erase that word, monk, and put Christian in the. Under no circumstance should the monk let, or should the Christian let his conscience accuse him of anything. What does that mean? Does that mean you should just be willy nilly doing whatever you want? Your conscience shouldn't rule. No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying live your life in such a way that you live in a this is a living in repentance.

01;05;55;14 - 01;06;28;29
Joshua Hoffert
As the the anonymous desert father says. So the, the examine is one way in which we do this because we come, we become very accustomed to our shortcomings. And we become accustomed to letting those things rise to the presence of God. And so what happens then is that actually all of the voices that vie for my attention on in an internal way, in an external way, begin to diminish and quiet because I'm not listening to them like I used to.

01;06;29;01 - 01;06;49;15
Joshua Hoffert
It's diminishing now because now I'm no longer giving myself to as, the fulfillment of my own desires. I'm no longer giving myself to the fulfillment of my own pleasure. I'm starting to think, well, what brings pleasure to God? And I'm doing that on a consistent basis. And so actually, the disposition of my salt life begins to change.

01;06;49;17 - 01;07;11;12
Joshua Hoffert
And so I'm, I'm my a stillness starts to come over me because of my practice. And so when it comes to hearing the voice of God, I've actually removed the things I heard. I had a friend one time who said, you know, teaching people to hear the voice of God is not so much teaching them what God sounds like, but teaching them to remove the things that choke out the sound of his voice.

01;07;11;14 - 01;07;28;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And it's like, oh yeah, that's this is what we're talking about with the examen is I'm starting to live in a state of, I like to call it, and hear me when I say this, a state of pre repentance because I'm already repentant. I'm already going, oh, I don't want that thought in. So I'm going to let go.

01;07;28;00 - 01;07;44;15
Joshua Hoffert
I'm going to let it go. Oh, I don't want that practice here. I recognize what it does to my to my conscience. I don't want it in here. I actually if I watch that video, if I see that thing, I've spent a lot of time telling Facebook to show me less things hmhmm because of all the things it wants to.

01;07;44;17 - 01;08;03;11
Joshua Hoffert
And I know if I look at that, if I spend my time there, it's going to influence how I think and it's going to it's going to cause an occasion for that old desire to come right back up. And so, okay, I'm going to catch this stuff now before. But that's the fruit of years of living in a particular way, right?

01;08;03;11 - 01;08;29;18
Joshua Hoffert
If I try and change my action overnight, it doesn't happen. Human beings don't work that way. Right? So going back to the example of Jonah, right? Even even getting swallowed by a fish, he's still bitter at the end, right? Yeah. Right. So his actions don't change overnight. It's over time. One of the desert fathers, he said, the word of God is like water dripping on a stone.

01;08;29;20 - 01;09;11;22
Joshua Hoffert
That slowly, over time, it morphs the stone and the heart is like the stone. Right. Slowly over time it morphs the stone. It's not just in one drop, but it's in a million drops over many, many years that the stone begins to change and adapt to the, the way of the water. And, so and that's how we're like, so we talk about these things, you know, stilling myself, asking these questions and offering myself up to him in the morning, in the evening, not just once, not just twice, but a rhythm that now begins to channel my energy, my effort, my emotions, my thoughts, my desires all begin to be channeled in a

01;09;11;22 - 01;09;29;23
Joshua Hoffert
particular direction. And God is going here. This is the reward. This is the reward I've been looking for. This is the people. This is my experience. This is I'm drawing you into me. And you can only do it because I've given myself to you. And now I'm cleansing and purifying you, and I'm presenting you back to me. My participation is just ask some questions.

01;09;29;23 - 01;09;37;00
Joshua Hoffert
That's pretty simple, actually. You just ask some questions and be open to the response right?

01;09;37;03 - 01;09;38;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah. There we go.

01;09;38;14 - 01;09;42;10
Joshua Hoffert
There we go. Well, I think I think with that.

01;09;42;13 - 01;09;44;00
Murray Dueck
Let's get our shot okay.

01;09;44;00 - 01;09;46;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Go for it, myrrh okay.

01;09;46;08 - 01;10;06;15
Murray Dueck
So guys, there's different versions of this. Just so you know. and so I'm, and I would really recommend Charles Bello's book, it's, you know, good vineyard guy. If you're like Josh and I, you know, I think you would like that, person place. So I'm just going to quote it off the the version that I currently have in my head.

01;10;06;17 - 01;10;31;24
Murray Dueck
So which which I think is probably how I, you know, the Jesuit guide to almost everything if, if you're like, you know, word for word where because he again, it changes a little bit on culture and group and stuff. Okay. So let's pray. Lord thank you. You're with us and you love us and we are your bride and you are preparing us spotless and pure for reigning and rule with you for eternity.

01;10;31;26 - 01;10;56;02
Murray Dueck
There is something grand in your heart about us and you're shaping us. Yeah, you with unveiled faces. Behold your glory and we're transformed. Metamorphosis. Caterpillar to butterfly and Lord, we want to invest in this process with you. And Lord. We want to get a little start of it right here. right now, this very, very old church practice, very old biblical practice.

01;10;56;05 - 01;11;11;16
Murray Dueck
And so, Lord, we just give you the thoughts of the day, when we turn over our ears and eyes and hearts to you, surround us with your angels. Oh, God. We want to listen. Thank you. Lord. Okay. To examine. Here we go.

01;11;11;19 - 01;11;13;26
Joshua Hoffert
That's a good prayer to start off with, by the way.

01;11;13;29 - 01;11;31;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's clear the deck. Right. Well, let's erase the board. Yeah. Lord puts up new on it. so everyone want you to think and, you know, everyone. How about we do week? Because, depending on what time of day you're listening to this, it could be morning for you. And you're. You might go. Why? Day hasn't started yet.

01;11;31;27 - 01;11;45;16
Murray Dueck
That's okay. So how about we do week? Okay. So I want you to think about your last week. And what is it about your last week that just made you feel alive, connected for.

01;11;45;19 - 01;11;48;03
Joshua Hoffert
Fulfilled?

01;11;48;06 - 01;11;54;15
Murray Dueck
Who are you with? What were you doing?

01;11;54;17 - 01;12;10;13
Murray Dueck
And I want you to just step right back into that memory. Who were you with? What were you doing? How are you feeling? You might have a whole bunch, but for now, pick one. Maybe.

01;12;10;16 - 01;12;16;00
Murray Dueck
Feel it, experience it. Look around.

01;12;16;03 - 01;12;45;02
Murray Dueck
And we're just going to turn to Jesus. Jesus, what is it about this moment? That made me feel alive, fulfilled, connected.

01;12;45;04 - 01;12;52;11
Murray Dueck
What was on your heart for me in this moment? Jesus.

01;12;52;13 - 01;12;59;15
Murray Dueck
What would you want to say to me when you see me like this?

01;12;59;17 - 01;13;04;00
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

01;13;04;02 - 01;13;18;26
Murray Dueck
And as we just sit with the Lord, let's just let our hearts be thankful. Thank you, Jesus, for this.

01;13;18;28 - 01;13;44;01
Murray Dueck
Okay, so part two. The low right. The low of the of the week. So I want you to think back over your week. So what was a low moment. Some were you lost your temper. You felt afraid. you didn't feel connected? Didn't feel respected. Something like that. I want you to think about that memory, too.

01;13;44;04 - 01;13;48;26
Murray Dueck
Who were you with? What were you doing?

01;13;48;28 - 01;13;56;19
Murray Dueck
Who were you not with? And step right back in there.

01;13;56;21 - 01;14;05;22
Murray Dueck
And allow yourself to feel that experience that.

01;14;05;25 - 01;14;06;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;14;06;24 - 01;14;17;06
Murray Dueck
Not be afraid of it. The Lord loves us just as much. Right there he is. The good doctor.

01;14;17;08 - 01;14;40;04
Murray Dueck
Lord, what is it about this moment that caused me these negative feelings?

01;14;40;06 - 01;14;50;28
Murray Dueck
And, Lord, what was on your heart for me? Right here.

01;14;51;01 - 01;15;01;12
Murray Dueck
What would you want to say to me? Right here in Jesus?

01;15;01;15 - 01;15;14;29
Murray Dueck
And you might find something to repent of. You might, the Lord might just give you a big hug, which I think you will do. Either way.

01;15;15;01 - 01;15;21;16
Murray Dueck
And then again, just let your heart be thankful.

01;15;21;19 - 01;15;51;21
Murray Dueck
And look at the Lord by faith. Make sure knowing in your nowhere, just as you did with your heart, just be with them right? Not that easy to do. Takes practice. And be thankful right? Be thankful in all things. It causes a heart to open flow with life, right? Bitterness, anger, fear closes the heart. Thanksgiving opens the heart.

01;15;51;21 - 01;16;02;28
Murray Dueck
That's the river flow. Lord, thank you that you love me here. You're with me. You're healing me.

01;16;03;01 - 01;16;18;01
Murray Dueck
Thank you. Okay. And I'll add my last little thought. Which? Which in different forms is probably already there of the of the exam. Lord, thinking about my last week.

01;16;18;04 - 01;16;25;11
Murray Dueck
What brought your heart joy?

01;16;25;13 - 01;16;33;27
Murray Dueck
Who was I with? What was I doing?

01;16;34;00 - 01;16;53;18
Murray Dueck
Could be as easy as noticing his creation or loving on your kids. Or spending time in prayer. And it just gave him joy. And step right back into that moment.

01;16;53;20 - 01;16;59;20
Murray Dueck
Like the parable of the talents, enter into the joy of your master.

01;16;59;23 - 01;17;11;08
Murray Dueck
And again, be thankful. Thank you Lord.

01;17;11;10 - 01;17;31;15
Murray Dueck
And we thank you, Lord, for this little prayer time. Help us journal it. Write it down. Pay attention. We're asking to to be able to test it with Scripture and fruit of the spirit and in witness confirmation bouncer of others. But Lord, as you know, says, do not grieve the spirit. Do not despise prophecy. Test everything. Hang on to the good.

01;17;31;18 - 01;17;42;02
Murray Dueck
So we thank you, Lord, that you love us. You're good dad, we thank you. You are preparing us to be with your son forever by the power of your spirit. Amen.

01;17;42;04 - 01;17;49;05
Joshua Hoffert
Amen. Oh, that was wonderful. Mary. I had some some lovely reflections.

01;17;49;07 - 01;17;49;20
Murray Dueck
Amen.

01;17;49;20 - 01;18;00;12
Joshua Hoffert
On highs and lows. Yeah. Thank you for leading us in that. Maybe. Well, maybe we'll clip that out and and, just put the exercise up for people to, Yeah. Yeah.

01;18;00;15 - 01;18;05;03
Murray Dueck
And we can talk about it next week. We could unpack it a little bit, I guess, if you where we go.

01;18;05;05 - 01;18;20;10
Joshua Hoffert
And we'd encourage you, like Mary said, to to journal that write down, treasure the moments, ponder them. hold on to them. especially if you're. Oh, if you're doing this on a weekly basis and, writing some things down can be a good thing, good practice.

01;18;20;13 - 01;18;37;05
Murray Dueck
And if you practice that every day, everybody, you'll begin to notice patterns, things that bring you joy, that you didn't realize it, things that make you fulfilled, that you didn't realize, things that you trigger, you that you didn't realize. Right. And then you'll start to catch it in the moment rather than at the end of your day.

01;18;37;09 - 01;18;37;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;18;37;28 - 01;19;00;20
Murray Dueck
And, and it becomes, a real kind of automatic thing, like just a conversation with Jesus and knowing your own heart. and again, this is why I think, we really have lost something, not having confession. And again, we, we tend to hear that word is very. Oh, no, that's too judicial. No, you have to think about their they're thinking about it as therapeutic.

01;19;00;25 - 01;19;03;12
Murray Dueck
Right. Where the priest is like, how can I help heal your heart.

01;19;03;18 - 01;19;04;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right.

01;19;04;11 - 01;19;06;14
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Bring it into the light. Right?

01;19;06;17 - 01;19;06;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

01;19;06;29 - 01;19;10;23
Murray Dueck
And you will be what? Confess your sins to one another and you will be healed.

01;19;10;24 - 01;19;11;19
Joshua Hoffert
Healed? Yeah.

01;19;11;20 - 01;19;12;18
Murray Dueck
That's very.

01;19;12;20 - 01;19;22;24
Joshua Hoffert
Therapeutic. That's right. That's that is the context for that. Well, Murray, this is always this has been, a really fun episode talking to.

01;19;22;27 - 01;19;23;10
Murray Dueck
Quite well.

01;19;23;10 - 01;19;23;29
Joshua Hoffert
I think.

01;19;24;02 - 01;19;28;10
Murray Dueck
Josh and I started like, what are we going to do today? We knew what we're going to talk about the examined.

01;19;28;10 - 01;19;28;29
Joshua Hoffert
But yeah. Yeah.

01;19;28;29 - 01;19;30;19
Murray Dueck
But you know, you feel them.

01;19;30;19 - 01;19;43;28
Joshua Hoffert
You feel that. Yeah. It's just beautifully does. Yeah. So everybody thanks so much for joining us on the journey and for the reviews you guys are putting up on on the podcasting platforms. And we appreciate all the feedback.

01;19;44;00 - 01;19;45;09
Murray Dueck
And Sarah, thank you.

01;19;45;14 - 01;20;10;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Sarah, thank you. Yeah. So if we just shout out why not. Yeah that's right. And you know, just for the record, both Maria and I are entirely supported by, donors, people that support, both the wine ministries and Samuel's mantle. And if you've been a long time listener and would consider maybe donating on behalf to support the podcast and support Marie and I and what we're doing, that would be wonderful.

01;20;10;10 - 01;20;22;16
Joshua Hoffert
I think maybe the easiest way to do that is just to send them to Samuel's mantle and, they can donate through Samuel's mantle.com. And, if you want to support the podcast, we don't have a.

01;20;22;16 - 01;20;26;13
Murray Dueck
And just, in the memo line, just make sure you say.

01;20;26;15 - 01;20;27;13
Joshua Hoffert
voices from the desert.

01;20;27;19 - 01;20;36;10
Murray Dueck
Voices from the desert. Because, we definitely would like it to go to this Samuel's mantle. You other stuff to. But I want to make sure Josh is bless.

01;20;36;12 - 01;20;52;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So. So if you and there's a link to. We'll put a link in the podcast description. there are there always is one to Samuel's mantle, but we'll put a link to the donation page in particular, if, you know, it'd be a wonderful thing to be able to support us, I think and I think it's wonderful to support Maria and it's very much appreciated.

01;20;52;17 - 01;21;09;27
Joshua Hoffert
So, we have been considering setting up a Patreon at some point. So that might be down the line. So it's keep your ears open for that. And but until next time, we will see you another week. God bless.

01;21;10;04 - 01;21;20;05
Murray Dueck
You everybody. Thank you. You.

01;21;20;07 - 01;21;37;15
Murray Dueck
You.

01;21;37;17 - 01;21;45;24
Murray Dueck
You. You.

01;21;45;26 - 01;21;49;25
Murray Dueck
You.

01;21;49;27 - 01;21;50;03
Murray Dueck
You.