Lectio Divina: reading scripture through the lens of love

Join Josh and Murray as they continue to explore the concept of bridal intimacy in scripture and history as they dive into the ancient practice called Lectio Divina. What do we want to accomplish when we read scripture? Is it to learn what a moral life looks like? Is it to understand fundamental concepts of theology and doctrine? Or is there a deeper, more impactful layer that can bring us to the Father? Join the boys as they dive in!

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

Here is the link to the lectio exercise: https://cachurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/PROGRESSION-OF-LECTIO-DIVINA-adapted-from-Charles-Bello.pdf

To support Voices from the Desert, visit this link to donate and add a note that you would like to support the guys at VFTD: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/donate/

Transcript

00;00;19;12 - 00;00;34;18
Joshua Hoffert
So you could characterize it as an old fashioned fashion, backward and western retro. Yeah. this is is basically having coffee with a friend asking about what you're struck.

00;00;34;20 - 00;00;43;18
Murray Dueck
Exactly.

00;00;43;21 - 00;00;48;29
Joshua Hoffert
You.

00;00;49;01 - 00;00;52;01
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody, to another episode.

00;00;52;01 - 00;00;52;29
Murray Dueck
Of.

00;00;53;02 - 00;00;56;08
Joshua Hoffert
Voices from the desert.

00;00;56;11 - 00;01;05;04
Murray Dueck
Oh. Oh, you sound like Mike Kelly. It sounds like. I'm just hope. Oh. So.

00;01;05;06 - 00;01;05;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;01;05;14 - 00;01;07;21
Murray Dueck
I feel sorry for that coyote. Yeah.

00;01;07;23 - 00;01;19;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I know he's he's coyote. Coyotes probably live a sad life. You would think that was true. So they're always kind of crying and yapping and so, you know, they're in the desert. Yeah.

00;01;19;25 - 00;01;24;12
Murray Dueck
What are you doing? Yeah, we have so many. We had a we really do. So,

00;01;24;14 - 00;01;41;13
Joshua Hoffert
We had back in back in California at one point in my mom's backyard, there was a, coyote den. Ooh, off in the trees in the distance. And you could hear them all the time. Yeah. If you ever wanted to sacrifice one of your animals, you just leave it outside at night.

00;01;41;17 - 00;01;41;23
Murray Dueck
Oh.

00;01;41;23 - 00;01;47;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's horrible. It took, Yeah. Although eventually they moved on. But it was loud for a while.

00;01;47;17 - 00;01;49;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, it's quite amazing.

00;01;49;25 - 00;01;56;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah, that's one of the biggest animals that you get on par, really is, coyote? Yeah.

00;01;56;19 - 00;02;13;08
Murray Dueck
You know, a concern here is because they're mainly across the river. Is that when the river freezes in the winter, they move over and, Oh, right. Right. I need to have that in your head, like. Oh, boy, if the. We're refreezes. Those coyotes are moving over, and,

00;02;13;10 - 00;02;14;26
Joshua Hoffert
Sounds like an old West I know.

00;02;14;26 - 00;02;17;00
Murray Dueck
Right? It's a different way of life. Right.

00;02;17;02 - 00;02;17;29
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah.

00;02;17;29 - 00;02;24;17
Murray Dueck
We got we got a new dog who, he's very good with. Yeah. You did? Didn't. So,

00;02;24;19 - 00;02;26;14
Joshua Hoffert
you. Aiden has been grieve.

00;02;26;15 - 00;02;27;05
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;02;27;07 - 00;02;31;15
Joshua Hoffert
And he's been left to, maybe in heaven.

00;02;31;16 - 00;02;32;03
Murray Dueck
He's up there.

00;02;32;03 - 00;02;32;13
Joshua Hoffert
You see.

00;02;32;13 - 00;02;56;21
Murray Dueck
Him? We're actually getting up there. the new dog we have. He is a Great Pyrenees border collie, and he's big white fluff ball. Looks like a little bear, but he's he's great with the animals. and really hates coyotes, which is good, but we're still going to pick up two Old English Sheepdog puppies in two weeks. Aiden's a sister.

00;02;56;24 - 00;02;57;11
Murray Dueck
They are healthy.

00;02;57;11 - 00;02;59;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Okay, well, the legacy lives on.

00;02;59;24 - 00;03;04;21
Murray Dueck
More litter. They're having one more litter, and we're like we. This is our chance if we're going to do it.

00;03;04;21 - 00;03;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
So, yeah. Yeah. Wonderful.

00;03;06;18 - 00;03;08;00
Murray Dueck
So Aiden's brethren. Yeah.

00;03;08;00 - 00;03;08;12
Joshua Hoffert
So for.

00;03;08;15 - 00;03;09;09
Murray Dueck
Callum.

00;03;09;12 - 00;03;09;27
Joshua Hoffert
For those of.

00;03;09;27 - 00;03;12;05
Murray Dueck
You and Callum and Callum.

00;03;12;05 - 00;03;12;19
Joshua Hoffert
And as.

00;03;12;22 - 00;03;14;04
Murray Dueck
Aislinn easily.

00;03;14;08 - 00;03;14;26
Joshua Hoffert
He's like, I'm.

00;03;14;28 - 00;03;17;28
Murray Dueck
Going, all right. Yeah, I'm pretty happy. So boy, I lots of love.

00;03;18;01 - 00;03;38;01
Joshua Hoffert
For those of you. That's true. That is a lot. For those of you that have followed along with voices from the desert from, well, for the last six months, then, you know, the the sad, tragic story of aid. Yeah. And, and his death and Murray's grieving, and now it's kind of like Old Yeller, actually, you know, that would break it up.

00;03;38;06 - 00;03;40;27
Murray Dueck
That would break all the.

00;03;41;03 - 00;03;42;05
Joshua Hoffert
Well, the very last.

00;03;42;05 - 00;03;43;07
Murray Dueck
I watched that, I don't remember it.

00;03;43;12 - 00;03;59;09
Joshua Hoffert
Probably within the last year, the. Well that obviously everybody knows who dies at the end. Right. But then the very last part of the movie is that Old Yeller has a son. Oh, that's now the, the the pup that's taking care of the family.

00;03;59;11 - 00;04;01;29
Murray Dueck
I didn't remember. yeah, well, that's good, I have.

00;04;01;29 - 00;04;09;14
Joshua Hoffert
So it does end on a positive note, right? And that's so Murray, your story is kind of a a modern yeller.

00;04;09;14 - 00;04;11;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I guess it is. That's good. Yeah.

00;04;12;01 - 00;04;33;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Which is one. Yeah. So, Aidan, we love you. And, you know, somewhere if father would you give him a little kiss for us? Yeah. Yeah. That's right, that's right. So, by the way, everybody, I'm Joshua Hoffert and I run a ministry called Wind Ministries. And this is my good friend Murray Duke, who runs a ministry called Samuel's Mantle.

00;04;33;07 - 00;04;41;27
Joshua Hoffert
And he also, with his wife, runs Edens Way Farm sanctuary, which is where all the dogs are protecting all the animals.

00;04;41;29 - 00;04;43;29
Murray Dueck
So we need them.

00;04;44;01 - 00;04;58;20
Joshua Hoffert
that's what they do. And, gives us a little snapshot into what seems like the world of yesteryear. If the river freezes over, the coyotes are going to come. So I bet you most of our listeners probably have not had that far.

00;04;58;20 - 00;05;17;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah. It's a it's such a weird. Yeah. We're not that far out. We're out near Kamloops, British Columbia. We're only about 30 minutes out of town. I mean, it's not that far, but it's definitely a different world. And living in the, in the Fraser Valley, you know, where, where we have lived and it's and and just the fact that that river, which is pretty big freezes solid.

00;05;17;29 - 00;05;40;21
Murray Dueck
You know, it. It's right. You just don't have that. and it's, it's the and the ramifications out, out, out here. It's a different it's a different life, you know, and for sure, for sure. But, you know, you learn something about the Lord's seasons and, and animals and, you know, it's what the Lord the, you know, Jesus's world would have been very, you know, agrarian.

00;05;40;21 - 00;05;47;01
Murray Dueck
Agrarian. Is that the right word? yeah. Yeah, it's it's, it's pretty cool. So anyway.

00;05;47;03 - 00;06;00;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, the analogies he uses are timeless, right? Seeds sowing the seeds. Yeah. The lambs being. But being led by a shepherd, these things will never not be so. The most, the most timeless truths are summed up in the simplest analogy.

00;06;00;23 - 00;06;06;19
Murray Dueck
I had a lamb living in my house, let me tell you, until about a month ago. And boy am I happy he moved out.

00;06;06;21 - 00;06;08;16
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, he finally did okay well.

00;06;08;22 - 00;06;10;21
Murray Dueck
But the I don't let him in anymore because.

00;06;10;25 - 00;06;12;04
Joshua Hoffert
I know he didn't want to.

00;06;12;08 - 00;06;27;18
Murray Dueck
I can poop. Let me just let me tell you right now. So. But he doesn't even want to be a sheep. He wants to be a cat. He thinks he's a cat. And he that the herd is, he doesn't want anything to do with them. He now lives in my backyard with the dog. He thinks he's a dog.

00;06;27;21 - 00;06;31;09
Murray Dueck
At least that's. That's just. Who would have thought a sheep could be like that?

00;06;31;09 - 00;06;36;23
Joshua Hoffert
It's that's a that's. If that's not an analogy for church community, I don't know what is.

00;06;36;26 - 00;06;44;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah. what was the alarm thing on your, on your, computer today about forms that you were dealing with?

00;06;44;26 - 00;06;46;27
Joshua Hoffert
Oh. Invalid groups. Yeah.

00;06;47;00 - 00;06;49;24
Murray Dueck
You've got an invalid group filter. That's.

00;06;49;26 - 00;06;50;21
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah.

00;06;50;21 - 00;06;53;12
Murray Dueck
That's what's going on with them. yeah.

00;06;53;12 - 00;07;01;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. That's right. He does. He's got an invalid group filters. I think I'm a cat. No. Now I think I'm a dog. That's like. That's most Christians trying to figure out.

00;07;01;10 - 00;07;03;21
Murray Dueck
Who they are. It's it's quite something.

00;07;03;22 - 00;07;47;23
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe I'm like these people. Maybe I'm like these people. Well, and in a way that kind of gets us to the topic today. Right. Well, we've been we've been going, for, I think I love that we just pick up this idea, Murray. And then we just kind of, like, spend 15 episodes exhausted. Yeah. The idea, you know, we've done that a number of times now, and, so we we picked up this idea probably about ten episodes or so ago, about looking at the bridal paradigm in Scripture and, and seeing that kind of that narrative in the Bible, culminating in the, the bridal restoration in revelation 21 and 22 and the

00;07;47;23 - 00;08;10;28
Joshua Hoffert
city, the wedding, the marriage feast all coming together, that this is the anticipation of God through Scripture and then looking at how the early patristic authors seem to understand that, how then the contemplative authors seem to apply that and understand it, and the maturation of that, and, you know, we looked in, at Bernard of Clairvaux and Simeon the new Theologian.

00;08;10;28 - 00;08;22;11
Joshua Hoffert
And how did they communicate this idea of the church as a bride and then the individual as a bride. And and then we had father Mike come on. And just to correct everything.

00;08;22;13 - 00;08;23;21
Murray Dueck
Pretty much just job.

00;08;23;27 - 00;08;29;21
Joshua Hoffert
And, and then now, now, now we've started to get into.

00;08;29;23 - 00;08;30;17
Murray Dueck
Well, how.

00;08;30;17 - 00;09;06;14
Joshua Hoffert
Do Murray and I and others that we know, right. Not just us? How do how does this how is this practiced in a practical way, in a contemporary setting? And, and can we still be a bridal people practicing the kind of bridal intimacy that we see in Scripture, that we see in the contemplative authors today? And last episode, we talked about the prayer of examen as an aid to help open ourselves up to the place of intimacy, the place of encounter, to the place of being led.

00;09;06;16 - 00;09;30;01
Joshua Hoffert
And see, the thing is, I think I was realizing this recently. I preached at our church on Sunday and I was looking I was going through Romans 812 to 17. One of the things it says is, those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Right. And and I think there you can kind of separate people into two categories.

00;09;30;03 - 00;09;37;26
Joshua Hoffert
When they read that verse, they read that verse and they go, oh, no, am I being led or am I not being led?

00;09;38;00 - 00;09;38;16
Murray Dueck
Yes.

00;09;38;16 - 00;09;56;25
Joshua Hoffert
And then they have people that read that verse and they go, oh, they breathe a sigh of relief. I'm being led. That must mean that I'm a son or daughter for that matter. Right. And, and, and I think I vacillate between the two groups, you know, sometimes I'm like, yes, I'm being led and sometimes like, oh, no, my being led.

00;09;56;28 - 00;10;11;26
Joshua Hoffert
And, and it's interesting our, our lens that we read things through. And so that's, and that's exactly what we're talking about today is, the reading of Scripture and what it does to us. So, Murray, what are we talking about today? Wow.

00;10;11;26 - 00;10;20;24
Murray Dueck
Like, yeah. The more are we even your intro there. I'm just looking at all the rabbit trails. I can see thousands of them going off in various directions which which is good.

00;10;21;00 - 00;10;28;04
Joshua Hoffert
And that's that's, that's the other. When people don't understand. That's one of the other reasons we call it voices from the desert, because there's all kinds of trails in the. Yeah.

00;10;28;06 - 00;10;28;24
Murray Dueck
Well, keep.

00;10;28;24 - 00;10;29;29
Joshua Hoffert
This up so we can go anywhere.

00;10;29;29 - 00;10;55;01
Murray Dueck
We want. It'll keep it going forever. So, Yeah, that's right. And you know what, everybody, I just want to say one other thing, because I'm thinking of a very funny, review that we got, which I would love to talk about at some point. it was brilliant. It was very brilliant. you know, it's funny when you're when you do theology, you know, when you do didactic preaching, which is this is not this is not that.

00;10;55;04 - 00;10;58;27
Murray Dueck
And, and, and it's important if anybody.

00;10;58;29 - 00;11;00;02
Joshua Hoffert
Anybody was.

00;11;00;04 - 00;11;29;27
Murray Dueck
That's right. Why are you guys still rambling? Get on. Well, you know, the grammar is important. And I just wanted to say that, why is it important? Because Jesus is our friend and he likes to hang out. And and when you just focus on didactic preaching, what part of your being are you living in the left side of your head, which isn't bad, but to model only that which which is, you know, you need to do that Sunday morning.

00;11;29;27 - 00;11;54;16
Murray Dueck
You know, there just isn't time. But it's also important to model really chip and what that's like, talking about Scripture and the presence of God and realizing relationship and joy and humor are just as holy. And and that's one reason we screw around so much. Just so you know, because, it's important. Unless you become like a little child, we'll just leave it there.

00;11;54;21 - 00;12;34;07
Murray Dueck
But it's important. So, so back and that just bridges back to what I was going to say. You know, it's it's, again, you know, we can read Scripture through a very judicial lens and, and, and we've talked about that somewhat, and I'm sure we could talk about that a lot more. But, you know, when we put it into the and I'm sure we will, into the bridal paradigm, you really do have to look at it therapeutically, you know, when, when when Paul says, you know, in Ephesians, you know, he God wants a bride who's pure and spotless.

00;12;34;09 - 00;12;47;13
Murray Dueck
You can think about that first. You very Judith judicially, I need to live up to the law. I got it got my my eyes and cross by Jesus and and, or you could think about that as healing of the heart. Healing of the soul.

00;12;47;13 - 00;12;47;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;12;47;24 - 00;13;15;00
Murray Dueck
The restoration of mankind. Dealing with that knowledge of the tree of good and evil. And it's. And again, it's very important that as we, that we have that view, you know, confess your sins to one another and you will be healed. It's not talking about you will be forgiven or judged. You will be healed. Therapeutic. Yeah. And and, you know, I, I just want to come back to this thought because again, when we practice something like, let's say a Divina divine reading, which.

00;13;15;00 - 00;13;15;26
Joshua Hoffert
Is what we're talking about.

00;13;15;26 - 00;13;41;03
Murray Dueck
Today, it's important again, how reviewing our view of Scripture. You know what? What is it? We were unveiled face as we beheld his glory and were changed from glory to glory. Right. So. And that's what that's what Scripture does to us, because it's God breathed his presence is in it. but it's very easy. You could read Scripture from the from a point of view that it's it's judicial, boy.

00;13;41;03 - 00;14;00;03
Murray Dueck
But are we living up to the law? I'm going to get guilt. Right? Okay. And I hopefully most of us don't do that. at least knowing that we're doing that, I would say subconsciously that when I again, I think that's why the examine is such a good thing to look at where you screwed up and hold that in the presence of God and just let him love.

00;14;00;03 - 00;14;00;21
Joshua Hoffert
You, right?

00;14;00;21 - 00;14;29;10
Murray Dueck
Instead of going, oh boy, oh boy. I mean, that's kind of judicial. So, you know, watch that. Listen to that previous episode there. That's important. we can think of, of Scripture as just about us. I need to not be afraid. I need to not judge. I need to, get healing. I need to notice how many terms at times the word I was used there, like, continually.

00;14;29;12 - 00;14;54;26
Murray Dueck
Right. And, so we need all those things. We definitely do. and, you know, I do a lot of prayer ministry with people. I, I do a lot of inner healing, which is very, very therapeutic and very, very good. But but I think sometimes I would say that when we do inner healing, 90% of the time, we're talking about what people have done to us and, and.

00;14;54;26 - 00;15;18;13
Murray Dueck
Yes, and, and that needs to happen. It really does. That's therapeutic. But what is also therapeutic is also how we need to look at our hearts of what we've done to other people, but not in like, oh, now God is going to beat me up. No, we have to look at why am I bitter and angry? Why can I get judgmental when I'm in traffic, which we've talked about my issues there before?

00;15;18;15 - 00;15;38;22
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, we we have to, to to have a pretty clear view. And this the reason I brought this up is this is why confession in the church is such a beautiful thing and why I wish, believe it or not, in charismatic circles we had more of it and I think it's there. We can make appointments with the pastor and we can make appointments with the ministry team.

00;15;38;22 - 00;15;58;25
Murray Dueck
I think that's all good, but but the idea of confession is like, man, I've got some broken patterns in my life. You know, under these circumstances, I get mad at my family. Under these circumstances, I run out of money. I deal with fear, you know, to to really be able to bring things into the light and allow, allow it to be talked about.

00;15;58;27 - 00;16;13;26
Murray Dueck
And and we're afraid. Oh, man. Like the priest, you go to the priest, he's going to give you, you know, you got a, you know, he's going to punish you. He's basically going to give you something to do. You're going to confess it. Now, you going to do penance and and then you got to like, no, that's not the point of it.

00;16;13;26 - 00;16;33;22
Murray Dueck
The point of the point of it is to bring healing to your soul. You know, what could you do about this? And, and and if you think you're thinking about that every week, you're starting to observe your life patterns. You're starting to be aware of of the need for Scripture and healing and to to see Scripture from that point of view.

00;16;33;22 - 00;16;48;01
Murray Dueck
And that's how the church is classically applied it. And and again, we think, oh boy, it's judicial. And you go to a priest and boy, he's going to lay it down on. Yeah. And, and you know, I'm sure some priests do do that, but

00;16;48;04 - 00;17;18;07
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I'm thinking, Murray, that the, the, the you could characterize it as, you know, confession, quote unquote, confession, the bad word in Western evangelicalism, is is basically, having coffee with a friend talking about what your struggle is exactly. Right. And, and that's what we're talking about when, when we when we're stuck reading Scripture with the judicial view.

00;17;18;07 - 00;17;36;18
Joshua Hoffert
And the judicial view is not wrong, by the way, that in the sense that Scripture, when I read it, does have moral lessons, like, you know, there are there are how do I live my life? What's right and what's wrong? There are, you know, that they look at the the Jesus's commentary on the.

00;17;36;18 - 00;17;37;14
Murray Dueck
Law.

00;17;37;17 - 00;18;05;25
Joshua Hoffert
In, the Beatitudes of Matthew five, right? When that goes, you know, you've heard it said that, do not murder. And I'm telling you that anger is murder, right? And so now we do see clear what seems to be clear moral instruction. Now, there's a there's another there's a number of other layers there, a play. And so we're not saying that there's not a some kind of moral imperative in Scripture.

00;18;05;27 - 00;18;19;09
Joshua Hoffert
but when we're stuck reading Scripture from the lens of, well, what does this tell me about how I'm to live my life or how other people are wrong and how they live their life? That's oftentimes when I read the judicial.

00;18;19;10 - 00;18;20;06
Murray Dueck
That's the Scripture.

00;18;20;08 - 00;18;44;00
Joshua Hoffert
I'm applying it to others and not ourselves. Or what does this tell us about what's wrong with the world and how sinful the world is? And and I actually, even even so, to to the point where I've heard it said a number of different times in different camps, you know, different theological camps, that the Old Testament, the purpose of the Old Testament is to reveal sin.

00;18;44;03 - 00;19;02;29
Joshua Hoffert
And the purpose of the New Testament is to reveal grace. and and I get what people are saying when they say that. Right. But it's it's so not biblical because Paul tells us what the purpose of the Old Testament was. He's really clear what he taught you when he tells us what the purpose of the Old Testament law is, it's the tutor that brings us to Christ.

00;19;02;29 - 00;19;03;23
Murray Dueck
Very well said.

00;19;03;23 - 00;19;26;22
Joshua Hoffert
And and it's it's not it's not a, again, it's not a judicial, moralizing text that tells everybody what's wrong and how to be right. It does not the primary the primary purpose it it serves that purpose because it's talking about walking with the father. And so in some semblance, when we walk with the father, everything changes.

00;19;26;27 - 00;19;34;25
Joshua Hoffert
And so now we are quote unquote, more right than we were before, but only because now we're in relation to something, not because we understand the text. Yeah.

00;19;34;28 - 00;19;35;19
Murray Dueck
Very well.

00;19;35;21 - 00;20;06;13
Joshua Hoffert
So we've got the judicial level is is it is there. But when that becomes the primary lens we read Scripture through, then one lectio divina is lost and which is what we're talking about. and intimacy isn't gained for sure. Relationship isn't practiced and played out. Now I've got, as Murray, you said in an episode, a number of, episodes ago, that once I've removed the voice of my creator, all I have is moral laws to walk with.

00;20;06;16 - 00;20;11;17
Joshua Hoffert
And, and this is a significant problem because this isn't what the scriptures lay out.

00;20;11;17 - 00;20;31;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Who is this? This creator? He's ABBA. That's who he is. And we have to realize that the law. I mean, what's the purpose of the law? The purpose of the law is to show how creation works. This is how it works. It doesn't work well, if you lie, it doesn't work well. If you kill people, it doesn't work well.

00;20;31;17 - 00;20;49;10
Murray Dueck
I mean, it's, you know, if there's a cliff up ahead and you would go, don't go over that cliff. It's bad for you, you know that that's kind of the purpose of the law. Like when you break it, you reap something. It's built into creation and it's not there to punish you. It's actually there to keep you safe.

00;20;49;12 - 00;21;12;04
Murray Dueck
It's there to help you, you know? And if you break it, yeah, there are repercussions. Let's just, you know. Absolutely. But it's like it's like, I think sometimes God gets a bad rap. I, you know, when theologians said that reaping and sowing, right. What's the wrath of God? And it's this is a whole nother topic again too. But it's like somebody throwing a hammer in the air and you're like, don't throw hammers in the air.

00;21;12;04 - 00;21;23;12
Murray Dueck
And they're like throwing hammers in the air. And then when it comes down and hits them in the head and they go, oh God, did that to me. No, you were throwing hammers in the air, right? Like you did that because you stupid idiot like.

00;21;23;15 - 00;21;25;26
Joshua Hoffert
You threw a hammer there and it came down and hit you in the.

00;21;25;29 - 00;21;54;05
Murray Dueck
Closet. Physics. Which suggests that sooner or later, if you're going to break the law of gravity, you will pay a price. And, that's how biblical law works right there. It's like, you know, creation has a way it works. And, right. And and one other thought I wanted to throw you just add this brilliant statement. I thought it was brilliant, about like, you know, and we do this, we go out with our friends, and then we talk about, you know what?

00;21;54;08 - 00;22;07;20
Murray Dueck
I hope we do. And this would be a sign of a healthy relationship, what's going on in our lives. And we get some advice and we let people in. And you know, we have we have these close connections that we think, I'm going to get some healing, right?

00;22;07;22 - 00;22;09;14
Joshua Hoffert
I screwed up, homie, right.

00;22;09;15 - 00;22;17;14
Murray Dueck
Wouldn't that be great if you great if you thought the same thing about your pastor or your priest, that you could be just as honest and.

00;22;17;16 - 00;22;18;07
Joshua Hoffert
And the father.

00;22;18;07 - 00;22;43;25
Murray Dueck
And the Heavenly Father. Exactly right. Right. I was going to bump that up to the next level there, that you would think the same way about them, because that's really who they are. And and anointed by God with authority to bring, you know, healing into your life. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that would be a very healthy view of, of relationship to spiritual authority.

00;22;43;27 - 00;22;48;12
Murray Dueck
That's right. Anyway, so I'd throw that out there because that's therapeutic. Right. That's that's brilliant.

00;22;48;16 - 00;22;49;07
Joshua Hoffert
Too.

00;22;49;09 - 00;23;09;21
Murray Dueck
So so anyway, it's important to know these things as we, as we read scripture. you know how how we're reviewing the text, we have to be very honest, like you would be with a friend about our brokenness. Yeah. I mean, David says, oh, Lord, search my heart and all this stuff that's within me, you know, show me if there's any wickedness in me and lead me in the everlasting way.

00;23;09;21 - 00;23;17;14
Murray Dueck
You know, kind of the end of some 139 ish. And to be to be open. But he's talking to a friend there.

00;23;17;16 - 00;23;19;04
Joshua Hoffert
You know. That's right.

00;23;19;06 - 00;23;19;26
Murray Dueck
Well.

00;23;19;28 - 00;23;29;27
Joshua Hoffert
When you're reading just a novel, you know, let's just say a fiction novel, whatever. Maybe, let's make a super controversial and Harry Potter.

00;23;29;27 - 00;23;30;22
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;23;30;24 - 00;23;39;08
Joshua Hoffert
You're, you're reading Harry Potter, and all this. Let's dial it back or you're reading this major dial.

00;23;39;12 - 00;23;42;23
Murray Dueck
Right, though. Yeah, but it still still has it.

00;23;42;23 - 00;23;43;26
Joshua Hoffert
It still has to do with witches.

00;23;43;26 - 00;23;45;23
Murray Dueck
Yeah, there's some in there. That's right.

00;23;45;26 - 00;23;52;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, there is some in there. Oh, maybe we'll go back. We'll go middle ground. Okay. We'll go the Wizard of Oz.

00;23;52;08 - 00;23;53;22
Murray Dueck
Yes. I thought you're going to go Lord.

00;23;53;23 - 00;23;55;05
Joshua Hoffert
Of the witches and bad witches.

00;23;55;06 - 00;23;56;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Middle ground.

00;23;56;18 - 00;24;15;21
Joshua Hoffert
No. So we'll go to middle ground, right? Okay. You're reading. You're reading a work of fiction. Okay. You can make it any work of fiction you want, or it doesn't have to be Wizard of Oz. Oh, that's a great series of books. when you read, you tend to like, I read to my kids at night. I'm reading The Chronicles of Narnia.

00;24;15;21 - 00;24;40;22
Joshua Hoffert
Oh, very good to them. on and off we go through the books. and every time a new character is presented as the reader, you have to characterize the voice, right? Yeah. And and we do the same thing when we're reading in our head that each character we read has a different inflection, has a different way of talking, that we actually characterized the very brilliant.

00;24;40;22 - 00;25;00;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. And my my daughter recently got into reading chapter books. She's 11, and I remember her exclaiming when she finally got it, I can see it, I can picture it, you know, and she's seeing the she's going, oh my goodness, this makes sense to me. Reading a fiction book that doesn't have pictures in it. They're not. Yeah. Fiction.

00;25;00;15 - 00;25;06;16
Murray Dueck
Right. That's so cool. I, I you know, it is. I know they go back a long way like, wow.

00;25;06;18 - 00;25;30;03
Joshua Hoffert
And and so we, we read character onto every single page. Right. And we impute meaning to the people and have and and give their voices different tonalities and everything as we read them in the books. Well, what if you when you read Scripture, we're doing the same thing because you could say in a way, the author of the work is with you as you read the work.

00;25;30;03 - 00;25;54;10
Joshua Hoffert
When I read a work of fiction, right, I, I start to I read it. I was listening to a podcast episode recently, actually, about C.S. Lewis and how, he in, in, you know, as, as he was, as was talking, they were fascinated with European mythology. And so part of what he works into The Chronicles of Narnia is a really fascinating theory.

00;25;54;10 - 00;26;15;11
Joshua Hoffert
This guy wrote a book about it is, some of the astrological sign, really. And each each book actually deals with an astrological sign and, or not not astrology in that sense, but like the themes in the heavens, like the sun, the moon, things like the stars, that kind of stuff. And and each one of those, each one actually, it's one of each.

00;26;15;11 - 00;26;36;05
Joshua Hoffert
One of the Greek gods deified by one of the heavenly objects. Right. Mars going through the days of the week. Jupiter. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. All that. Anyway, he ties this whole thing together and and he's reading now and he's going, oh, C.S. Lewis was fascinated with that stuff. And you see it coming out in some of what he wrote.

00;26;36;05 - 00;26;59;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Really interesting thing. They, they, interview, I listen to podcasts. They interviewed this guy. My point is, as you read Lewis's work, fiction, you get a picture of what Lewis was like, not the complete picture, but you do get a picture of what he was like and how he thought. And and now we've characterized the voice, and now we're walking with the characters in the book.

00;26;59;09 - 00;27;23;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And. Well, what again? What if we approached Scripture the same way that the author of the book is with us? And in that sense, the father is with us and that scent and that sense. And if you're, you know, if you're part of, maybe one of our, more, ancient, you know, traditional strains of the faith, Catholicism, orthodoxy, this kind of stuff.

00;27;23;29 - 00;27;58;20
Joshua Hoffert
Then you would you would invoke the saint that wrote that book. Right? You'd say, Saint Paul, be with me as I read Tristan and help me to understand it right. And and so as an evangelical, we're going, well, we know the the father. If I can be with Lewis, in a way, when I'm reading The Chronicles of Narnia, I can be with the father in a way, when I'm reading the, when I'm reading the scriptures and I can see his voice coming through and I can see his character coming through, and I can see the person of Daniel and David and Jesus and Paul and Moses coming through because I, I can I as

00;27;58;20 - 00;28;32;27
Joshua Hoffert
a human can identify with them and I can hear their voice, and I, I can see the kind of person they are, right? The same way we read a work of fiction and, and we put so much meaning into it. And, and I mean, the best works of fiction, the, the reason why they're so moving and so meaningful is, is because they present the myth that sums up what it means to be human, you know, not myth in the sense that something that's false or untrue, but myth in the sense of the, the, you know, thinking of Aesop's fables, right?

00;28;32;27 - 00;28;37;24
Joshua Hoffert
These present timeless truths in a mythological faction that so impact the human.

00;28;37;24 - 00;28;38;10
Murray Dueck
Yeah, yeah.

00;28;38;13 - 00;28;58;25
Joshua Hoffert
Because there's something so real and true about the story. Even if the story's not true, it doesn't matter if the story is true or not. What matters is the truth that's summed up in the story. And and so with Scripture, which we believe to be absolutely true, we're going that the impact isn't so much because I look at it and I go from a reasonable logical position.

00;28;58;28 - 00;29;19;21
Joshua Hoffert
This is this is factually correct or accurate. That's a judicial view of reading Scripture. But from a therapeutic view. I look at it and I'm with the healer, and the healer is communicating who he is to me, and things are impacting me and I can't help it. And I'm seeing these broad narratives about what it's like to be human in relation to God.

00;29;19;23 - 00;29;23;10
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like, man, I'm reading Scripture and I'm seeing things that I never thought I could see and.

00;29;23;11 - 00;29;40;29
Murray Dueck
Therefore very well said. And you know what? It's funny. You know, this is a good a good spot, this track in that famous Saint Anthony quote, which, which we've done before, but I think it's, is it, who comes up to him? One of his. You probably remember the name. I think it there's a group.

00;29;41;00 - 00;29;45;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, there's a group of them that come up and you go, he's he says, what is this exactly?

00;29;45;13 - 00;29;59;16
Murray Dueck
And he asked the one, one young guy, what does it mean. He gives an anti because no, you don't have it. And he asks the other young guy, what do you think it means? And he gives his answer and finally he turns to their I think it was the John. I think it could be.

00;29;59;19 - 00;30;00;14
Joshua Hoffert
It might have been John.

00;30;00;14 - 00;30;06;25
Murray Dueck
And what do you think it means? And he goes, surely I know not. And he goes, oh, I would. God has the answer. that like.

00;30;07;02 - 00;30;07;15
Joshua Hoffert
You said.

00;30;07;16 - 00;30;25;20
Murray Dueck
You don't know what it is. And that's the answer. And it's it's funny, I think for everybody as, as you get to know God as father or you're, you get to know yourself and realize you know what's in there, right? You read Scripture very, very differently. That something that you read as a child, you know, as a young adult, it mean something different.

00;30;25;23 - 00;30;44;17
Murray Dueck
And even as an adult, let me do something else, because, I mean, when I used to read, let's say, the prodigal son, I really identified with, with the problem with, with the prodigal son, you know, that was my thing. And and then as I got some healing and I got to know God as father, he was a main character to me.

00;30;44;19 - 00;30;59;22
Murray Dueck
But now, I hate to say it, I see a lot of the older brother in me. I often, and I'm shocked by that. And, and, but it's there and and you know, I would if you would have asked me as a young man, I would go, I'm not that guy. I walked away from my men in church.

00;30;59;22 - 00;31;19;04
Murray Dueck
I walked away from my Bible degree. I'm trying to live by faith. I'm trying to. I'm there's nothing in me like that at all. And now I'm like, all right. Oh, boy. You know, there's some heart there that need some healing. And and it's just funny in how how that's true. the one that shocks me the most.

00;31;19;04 - 00;31;38;15
Murray Dueck
You know, I know we need to get into Lexia Divina, but how you can see scripture differently. I don't know if I was taught this, but I only saw it about five years ago. And, you know, I'm 58, so, you know, it's 53 when I figured this out, I guess, is that when you were looking at Philippians, I think it's four, where Paul says, I consider all things loss, that I may gain Christ.

00;31;38;17 - 00;31;57;17
Murray Dueck
Right? And he go through what he's lost. But, you know, gaining Christ is a theme, you know, and then he goes, you know, I want to know the power of his resurrection in the fellowship of his sufferings, that in some way I may gain, that I may know him. Right. I'm paraphrasing to Jesus quick and then he goes, not that I've already attained it, but I press on to the higher calling.

00;31;57;17 - 00;32;18;18
Murray Dueck
I think that's the way the NIV says it. and a higher calling I always thought was my vision. What am I doing for Christ? Sure. Right. But, you know, he doesn't mention that once in that passage. Five times he alludes to knowing Christ. That's the higher calling right there. Right. And you know what? I read that through my midnight culture.

00;32;18;18 - 00;32;39;26
Murray Dueck
I read it through my charismatic vision, being pushed to work hard. I read that through my own need to succeed. And finally, I mean, without even believing it, you know, because I burned out in 1997 when God said, see first podcast of voices from the desert way back when I've beaten you. That's right. You know, so I, I live my life with Christ.

00;32;39;26 - 00;33;03;05
Murray Dueck
As if that wasn't true, only to discover decades later. Oh my goodness, I've been reading this wrong the whole time. Right. And and how did it how did I change? I got to know the father better, right? I got some healing in my heart. I, got a little bit more pure and spotless. But, you know, this is going to be a lifelong process, that's for sure.

00;33;03;11 - 00;33;05;01
Joshua Hoffert
It's a bumpy journey. I think we call it.

00;33;05;01 - 00;33;06;02
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;33;06;04 - 00;33;07;24
Joshua Hoffert
The bumpy journey. Yeah.

00;33;08;01 - 00;33;28;13
Murray Dueck
So it's it's interesting how scripture some way to reads you you know, we read scripture I think I think maybe a better way to say that is Scripture read us because it's God breathed. You know, the Spirit of God is in there speaking. And and you know, as you do something like Lexi, you know, you start to have these passages like we're talking about jump off and hit you in different ways.

00;33;28;17 - 00;33;50;02
Murray Dueck
As the spirit matures. You, you ready to hear something new that maybe you didn't hear before? Because you're in this journey of transformation and you and the Spirit of God takes you to these deeper places. And that's why reading Scripture in Alexis Divina form, rather than just memorization, is is super important. You know, you're applying.

00;33;50;03 - 00;33;50;07
Joshua Hoffert
That.

00;33;50;07 - 00;33;55;10
Murray Dueck
Through to your actual life in the moment.

00;33;55;13 - 00;34;15;07
Joshua Hoffert
And, and you know, there's like just for, for some scriptural references to, the practice. And again, what we're talking about, if it hasn't been clearly defined as we're talking about lectio divina as a practice. And so we're going to dive into that, is you can read like I think Psalm 119.

00;34;15;07 - 00;34;15;24
Murray Dueck
Oh yeah.

00;34;16;00 - 00;34;42;02
Joshua Hoffert
Presents, presents just a microcosm of what it would. What the, the treasure of Scripture where how many times in the in the the longest psalm there. Right. It talks about, loving the statutes of God, loving the ordinance of God, loving the principles and precepts of God, and and how those form and shape and give rise to the inner man.

00;34;42;04 - 00;34;55;18
Joshua Hoffert
And and so we see Scripture itself even advocating for reading in a way that impacts me on an interior level, not an exterior level. Right. I just want to read, to quote.

00;34;55;19 - 00;34;56;04
Murray Dueck
Please, to.

00;34;56;09 - 00;35;24;13
Joshua Hoffert
To kind of set the stage, for a, for our, you know, bringing the patristic lens into, how we read scripture as a practice. Because because in the West. Right. And I think we can say this pretty emphatically in the West, the primary way we read Scripture is, exegetical, and which lends itself to the judicial view that we were talking about earlier.

00;35;24;17 - 00;35;39;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right. We want to understand what the text means in the context of what it was, of what it is saying. And then we icg the Scripture. We these are all these fancy terms for meaning and harmonize. Herman nudist.

00;35;39;29 - 00;35;40;23
Murray Dueck
Colony.

00;35;40;25 - 00;36;00;29
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So I want to understand what every one of the words means. What Paul meant in context of what he was saying. How do I apply that to my life today? And what's the lesson to my for my life today? Right. This is what this is what you're taught in Bible college is executing a passage, meaning I'm understanding the original context, what's meant, what the commentaries have said.

00;36;01;01 - 00;36;21;03
Joshua Hoffert
And then, how do I apply it in a way that makes sense to my life today? And, and so we really remove the mystery of the God breathed part of Scripture. So the God breathed part of Scripture, like Paul says to Timothy, all Scripture is inspired by God. The the God breathed part of Scripture is more so.

00;36;21;03 - 00;36;24;07
Joshua Hoffert
The respect we have for Scripture in the world, that's.

00;36;24;07 - 00;36;25;02
Murray Dueck
How we read it.

00;36;25;04 - 00;36;27;14
Joshua Hoffert
And we respect it because it's God.

00;36;27;21 - 00;36;31;10
Murray Dueck
Could we use the word thing veneration?

00;36;31;12 - 00;36;33;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we've oh.

00;36;33;04 - 00;36;34;27
Murray Dueck
I want anyway, I kicked the dog.

00;36;34;28 - 00;36;52;20
Joshua Hoffert
Oh you did, you went there all right. Yeah. So yeah we do that though. We do. We we respect it. We Revere it, we venerate it because it's God breathed, but we don't actually think that it's God breathed when we read it. We're not in. We're not encountering the breath of God. Right. That's not typically how we approach it.

00;36;52;26 - 00;37;14;18
Joshua Hoffert
So I want to read these two to bring us back to, because we want to see things from a lens that is not ours, because the problem with a worldview is that you have a view. And so it's very difficult to see the world very difficult. And so here's a I'm going to read a quote from origin about reading the scriptures original, which is third century original.

00;37;14;18 - 00;37;36;15
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. I do get it. Yeah. it's a third century, very early, patristic, patristic theologian and had his kind of ups and downs with the church. But, you know, generally well respected. and then Isaac of Nineveh, just a little bit later, a desert father who, comes on the tail end of the monastic move in the seventh century, six seventh century.

00;37;36;17 - 00;37;58;24
Joshua Hoffert
so origin says this, the operation of the word of God. This is, I think about this in the light of Western didactic, theological, exegetical scripture study. So someone sits down when we say to our church, before I read this, when we say to our church, then we say to the people in the church, we want you to read the scriptures.

00;37;58;24 - 00;38;23;18
Joshua Hoffert
What they hear you saying is, we want you to read the scriptures and understand what they mean. So we're telling people, we want you to study the scriptures. That's typically what people hear when we say that right now you should adopt a yearly Bible plan, meaning you should read so that you understand the scriptures, but hear what origin says about the scriptures, the operation of the Word of God, and what he means by Word of God.

00;38;23;18 - 00;38;38;21
Joshua Hoffert
In this context is the scriptures. The operation of the Word of God is to clean our soul from the mud of the Philistines, and to make waters spring forth like the kingdom of God. The Word of God is within you. He does not come from outside.

00;38;38;21 - 00;38;40;05
Murray Dueck
Wow.

00;38;40;08 - 00;39;01;15
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, so that's a really different context, right? The operation of the Word of God is to cleanse your soul, right? Not that you would not. The operation of the Word of God is to teach you how to live rightly. The operation of the Word of God is much deeper than that. And then here's another one from Isaac of Nineveh, which is almost identical.

00;39;01;20 - 00;39;25;14
Joshua Hoffert
But you're talking 400 years later. Saturate your gaze with constant study of the sections of Scripture, the versions of Scripture, the versions of the writing of Scripture. That's what elections means. Saturate your gaze with constant study of the elections of Scripture, so that idleness will not be the occasion for an unusual vision to be solid in your sight.

00;39;25;17 - 00;39;56;03
Joshua Hoffert
Okay? Saturate your gaze with Scripture so that when you're not doing anything, Scripture is all you see. So he's he's basically saying the same thing as origin. Yeah. Is the Word of God cleanses your soul, saturate your gaze so that your soul doesn't see what it doesn't want to see. So this is a very different context for reading Scripture than what is typically communicated to the average Christian in your, you know, North American evangelical church.

00;39;56;05 - 00;40;23;08
Joshua Hoffert
Read the Bible. So it will teach you about how to live your life and read, you know, okay, so we read the Beatitudes of Jesus to teach us about what we should and shouldn't do. Well, okay, I shouldn't be anxious. I should trust God. Okay? That's what I need to do, right? We read the scriptures from that perspective, and it's primarily under the the Western ideal that the more I learn, the more my life will change.

00;40;23;11 - 00;40;49;27
Joshua Hoffert
The more information I accrue, the better I become at inhabiting my body. Basically, right inhabiting my space of life. And, and and we know that's just not true. It's it is. Every single person moves into adulthood with a very broken paradigm for how they see themselves and their place in the world. Some of them, their paradigm is less broken, some of them it's more broken.

00;40;49;27 - 00;41;17;03
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, but the amount of information they have does not lend itself to a mature person. The kind of background they had, the kind of family of origin they have, the kind of experiences they have will dictate far more the kind of person they're going to be in the success that they're going to have. and so we can see just practically how people live and what we understand now about the makeup of the brain and trauma, that kind of stuff that in for information does not produce transformation.

00;41;17;05 - 00;41;17;19
Murray Dueck
And, you know.

00;41;17;22 - 00;41;22;19
Joshua Hoffert
Really these guys, these guys in the early church would never have said the information will produce.

00;41;22;19 - 00;41;33;11
Murray Dueck
Oh absolutely. I, I, you know, I it's funny, I really like listening to Irena Steenberg I think is his name.

00;41;33;17 - 00;41;35;13
Joshua Hoffert
Oh yeah. Yeah. And he's a bishop and.

00;41;35;13 - 00;41;53;12
Murray Dueck
The bishop and he did this great three part series on on mysticism, which he actually hates that word. But it was it was super good. And he went to his spiritual father and told me he was going to go talk to in the university level, and he almost didn't give him permission to go. He was like, you're going to teach this university students.

00;41;53;12 - 00;42;10;15
Murray Dueck
And because it's like you need to make sure, he said, I'll only give you permission to talk to them under under these circumstances, that that they realize this is about heart transformation and not information because they're so big on that, like, no, you're not going to do that. Right. And

00;42;10;17 - 00;42;13;27
Joshua Hoffert
So boy, you're giving someone something before they're ready for.

00;42;13;27 - 00;42;36;21
Murray Dueck
My favorite, my favorite quote is like, this lady goes to this mug and I guess she's trying to impress him and goes, I. And she goes, Tim, I've been reading. Maximus. He goes, you've been reading Maximus. Then how will you be saved? The point being, just because you read it now, you think you know it, but now you're in pride because you think that you you have it, but you don't.

00;42;36;23 - 00;42;57;09
Murray Dueck
So you're actually reading it is damaged your soul because you're not living it. It's it's such a different way of thinking. Right. So yeah. and you know, everyone, I would just say, in regards this a very simple way to get at it, if you're like, oh, I don't really, you know, read some stuff by Peter Shore, zero emotionally healthy spirituality.

00;42;57;12 - 00;43;11;16
Murray Dueck
Really. Just really easy to read, but really deep as a, you know, as a minister, he figured all this out and it's just really, really wonderfully done emotionally healthy spirituality by, you know, Peter's zero zero.

00;43;11;16 - 00;43;20;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yep. Yeah. That'll that's right. That's a it's a that's a good there's a number of he's got courses and books and like if Pete ever listens to this podcast we would. Yeah.

00;43;20;26 - 00;43;22;19
Murray Dueck
Come on somebody knows in person.

00;43;22;19 - 00;43;27;08
Joshua Hoffert
And talk through some of this stuff. Yeah. Help, help introduce us to him. Yeah.

00;43;27;10 - 00;43;46;27
Murray Dueck
So there you go. That that will really help you because, it'll it'll break it down a lot more slowly. But again, a minister that that, the one story that I love is that that, he's a pastor, and, and then his, his, you know, his wife is going to go on a holidays and she's like, I'm going without you.

00;43;46;27 - 00;44;05;12
Murray Dueck
And he's like, but what will the church think? What will people think if you do that? And he's like, wow, I'm, I'm a pastor. And I'm telling everyone to be honest and real. And then if I do it, I it's it's very fascinating how we how he works, you know, being real and honest and what scripture says. So you guys I think you'll learn.

00;44;05;14 - 00;44;13;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Anyway so Murray with all that said. Yeah, with all that said what give us a definition of lectio divina. Well, what would you.

00;44;13;28 - 00;44;14;27
Murray Dueck
You know what I.

00;44;14;29 - 00;44;16;04
Joshua Hoffert
What what is it.

00;44;16;08 - 00;44;35;23
Murray Dueck
What I, what I said earlier, I actually kind of like that statement. It popped up, popped into my head. Sorry. My cat's jumping around here on me. I oh he's like saw Flynn was like claws came out. I was like, So he slides that cat. Okay. So, that that thought, you know, we can read scripture or Scripture can read you.

00;44;35;26 - 00;45;03;24
Murray Dueck
Lectio Divina is like scripture reading you. It's it's it's the Lord through his word highlighting. putting his spirit upon things and then touching your heart with it. That makes connections to to your life where you are, where you're going, and where you've come from and and and applies the heart of the father through Scripture and your journey to the moment.

00;45;03;27 - 00;45;05;15
Murray Dueck
That would be a good way to say yes.

00;45;05;17 - 00;45;07;04
Joshua Hoffert
I think that would be a good way.

00;45;07;06 - 00;45;31;05
Murray Dueck
So again, I so we're going to I'm going to walk you through Alexia Divina and I'm going to take this kind of a modernized version everybody. So this is an ancient Christian form. We should just say that, Saint Benedict probably was, you know, the guy that first put it together and it's it's form. It is. I mean, it's a very even older than that, but that was like three 5380 somewhere in there in Italy.

00;45;31;07 - 00;45;48;08
Murray Dueck
But it's probably even way older than that. So but that's pretty old. I mean, that's 17 or 30 years. So, it's so today we just, you know, I'm, you know, how it is. Me and Josh are a little bit of a history buff, so we kind of go a little nuts on this, but. So it's a very ancient Christian practice.

00;45;48;11 - 00;46;12;25
Murray Dueck
And for the reason, again, to bring you into the present. So, so they would consider it like a, like a ladder. there is, you know, rest read, ponder, you know, Orisha or Rocio, speak to God about it. reflect back to rest. You know ish. Right? But it's bringing you deeper and deeper into the presence of God as you go.

00;46;12;29 - 00;46;34;21
Murray Dueck
So you're using Scripture? to bring you deeper and deeper into the presence of God, out of your rational left side of your brain, into your noose, into your heart, which we won't have. we'll have to come back to that. So but and talk about that. But so so let's do it everybody. So I'd really recommend the version I'm using is out of a book by a guy named Charles Bello.

00;46;34;24 - 00;46;53;22
Murray Dueck
Bello lo called prayer as a place. And Charles Bello was a, vineyard overseer, like, overlooking a whole bunch of churches and, and, you know, again, it'll be a good book for you to have. Prayer is a place I love the part where God says to Charles, if you don't let me love you, you're not going to make it.

00;46;53;25 - 00;47;12;24
Murray Dueck
He goes, what do you mean? Look at all the stuff I'm doing for you. I'm doing all this stuff. And, he wasn't living emotionally healthy spirituality. Let's just say that. And. And he realized he was missing a bunch of things out of his life. No sabbatical rhythm? No, it's just working. Not looking at his own heart. Not,

00;47;12;27 - 00;47;33;07
Murray Dueck
And he realized I'm not reading scripture in a healthy way. Right. I'm not applying it to who I am as a as a person. And, and that's what reading it this way does. So there you go. Prayer is a place. I'm taking it out of that if you want to,

00;47;33;09 - 00;47;35;09
Joshua Hoffert
And there's know you can find resources throughout.

00;47;35;10 - 00;47;38;16
Murray Dueck
There's lots of versions of this because it's ancient.

00;47;38;16 - 00;48;02;01
Joshua Hoffert
While you can go Madame Guion on three, 400 years ago, talking about praying the scriptures. similar, very similar context. You know, we've gone back to God. Like I said, you can go back to Psalm 119 and just practice what Psalm 9119 talks about. Absolutely. And so this is yeah, this is always been a part of Christian practice.

00;48;02;03 - 00;48;24;09
Murray Dueck
Okay. So let's do it. Let's do the practice. So everybody I think if you want to turn in your Bibles or I'll read it out loud to Psalm 139. There you go. It's you know, someone's their DNA is not that long. I'm not even going to read it all. I'll probably do, oh, 16 verses, something like that. so I'm going to read this.

00;48;24;09 - 00;48;48;02
Murray Dueck
And so we're going to kind of walk through, again, maybe Charles Bell, because it's very modern, very charismatic. He's a vineyard guy. You know, I'm guessing that most of you listening are, you know, like Josh and I, charismatic people on a journey. So I'm going to assume that this version will be good for you. Okay. So I'm just going to read through as he's written it out.

00;48;48;04 - 00;49;08;18
Murray Dueck
And, and then we're going to work it through and we're going to use this chapter. So ready. Step one find a place where you can be quiet and undisturbed. Choose a brief passage of Scripture. So we're going to allow that this scripture to pop, or you'll be drawn to something or something's going to connect with you. invite the Holy Spirit.

00;49;08;20 - 00;49;11;29
Joshua Hoffert
we'll try and put a link to this, by the way, in the show notes.

00;49;11;29 - 00;49;30;24
Murray Dueck
Yeah, I found it off the web. I have the it's one of those books you lend out, you never get back. So you therefore, you know, it's a good book. Okay? So get yourself quiet. Get yourself ready. Step two. Read. You know, read the passage slowly, letting your awareness rest on each word. read it out loud. Make it personal.

00;49;31;00 - 00;49;53;02
Murray Dueck
Okay? And I'm just going to do that with you. So step two, once you've done this, sounds popped. Something's drawn. I'm going a little bit quick. That's okay. meditate and reflect on the word or phrase that caught your attention right. How does that apply to your current circumstance and and respond. God, what are you saying to me through this?

00;49;53;02 - 00;50;15;01
Murray Dueck
Right. Okay. And then rest. Just rest in God's present wordless quiet. Contemplate on it, hold it and return. So again, go a little bit quick because I'm looking at the clock here. So let's do it. Everybody I'm going to read. Here we go. Lord, we love you. Love your presence. We want Scripture to read us if we want to put it that way.

00;50;15;04 - 00;50;37;08
Murray Dueck
And so we thank you that Your Word is God. Breathe. And Lord, we ask you to have your Word breathe on us right now. Have your word. Breathe on us. Oh, God. So here we go. So everybody, I'm going to read, oh, you know, not all of it, but enough Psalm 139 and as I read it, is there a verse that grabs your attention?

00;50;37;08 - 00;50;59;07
Murray Dueck
It could be just a single word. it could be, it could be the setting. It's painting. You know, the Psalm one through nine sets up some things here. Okay. So you might you might just hear a word that you love about God. He knows me. For example, the word know often grabs me. It could be the scene of being knit together in your mother's womb.

00;50;59;07 - 00;51;18;11
Murray Dueck
You might picture it. You might just knowing your knoweth. That's what I need to hear today. That's what God's working on. So you're paying attention as you're reading the word, what's being stirred up inside of you? What's being stirred up in you? Could be a picture like you said. It could be a thought. Like a word. Could be a sense.

00;51;18;14 - 00;51;39;25
Murray Dueck
You know, any of those is good. It might be just something you just for some reason you're curious about any of that's good. But you pay attention to that. Has you read okay. And you might you could read it 2 or 3 times, go over it slowly. But for times sake, I'm just going to read it once. Here we go.

00;51;39;27 - 00;52;10;24
Murray Dueck
Oh Lord, you have searched me and known me. You know, my sitting down and I rising up. You understand my thought from afar. You comprehend my path and my lying down under acquainted with all my ways. There's not a word on my tongue. But be a hold. Lord, you know it all together. You've hedged me in behind. And before you laid your hand upon me.

00;52;10;26 - 00;52;37;11
Murray Dueck
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It's too high. I cannot attain it. Where can I go from your spirit? Where can I flee? Your present? If I ascend to heaven, you're there. If I make my bed in hell, behold you're there. If I take the wings of the morning. And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

00;52;37;13 - 00;53;01;12
Murray Dueck
If I say, surely the darkness fall on me, even the night shall be light about me. Indeed the darkness shall not hide me, but the night shines is the day. The darkness and the light are both the same to you. For you, for my inward parts. You covered me in my mother's womb I praise you. I'm fearfully and wonderfully made.

00;53;01;12 - 00;53;26;29
Murray Dueck
Marvelous are your works. And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from you. When I was made in the secret. And skillfully wrought in the the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance being yet unformed. And your book, all my days, were written before one of them came to be.

00;53;27;01 - 00;54;00;29
Murray Dueck
Amen. Thank you for your word. So is that you might need to read it a few times. Go slower. But for now. Popped out of you today on that page as we read that. The word no. You know me. All my days are written. Might be the thought that grabbed you today. Depending on what's going on in your life, it might make my bed in the depths of hell even.

00;54;00;29 - 00;54;23;25
Murray Dueck
There you are. Maybe that's the thought, right? So you see, it's very applicable to life in the moment. This reading like this. Very important to see that. So whatever that it could have been a word like the word no could have been a scene like parasite of the sea. Like you could picture it, but it been a feeling, you know, all my thoughts.

00;54;23;27 - 00;54;30;02
Murray Dueck
Let's take a moment and just ponder them.

00;54;30;04 - 00;54;34;29
Murray Dueck
And as you ponder that verse, that thought.

00;54;35;01 - 00;54;40;23
Murray Dueck
Where in your life have you experienced it before?

00;54;40;25 - 00;54;49;05
Murray Dueck
Where is God made that real to you?

00;54;49;08 - 00;54;56;16
Murray Dueck
What were you do and who are you with?

00;54;56;18 - 00;55;09;15
Murray Dueck
Does it remind you of other scriptures? Does it make any links as you're pondering to other verses and passages?

00;55;09;17 - 00;55;19;08
Murray Dueck
To memories come to mind of other people preaching it, seeing it in other people's lives?

00;55;19;11 - 00;55;54;24
Murray Dueck
So you're pondering the Scripture. God's making it personal, the scriptures reading you. It's connecting. Okay. We just take a minute as we're doing that. Lord, why this passage today? Why would you bring this to my mind? why is this word, this memory, this feeling?

00;55;54;27 - 00;56;02;21
Murray Dueck
What do you want me to take from this? Geez.

00;56;02;24 - 00;56;15;27
Murray Dueck
What do you want me to know about who you are from this past?

00;56;15;29 - 00;56;29;25
Murray Dueck
What do you want me to take about who you are for? For me in this passage?

00;56;29;27 - 00;56;42;12
Murray Dueck
And maybe one last thought there would be. Who am I in you? Yeah. From this passage.

00;56;42;15 - 00;56;57;21
Murray Dueck
So that word in scripture, that thought, that feeling, it's starting to expand with meaning, with deeper connection with heart. The heart connection to God and his connection to us. It's starting to feel in right.

00;56;57;23 - 00;57;21;17
Murray Dueck
And then as we do that, we just rest in because our hearts were moving out of the left side of our brain. We're moving into this heart to heart connection with God. And we're not just talking emotions here. We're talking Miss Spirit. The spirit. And you just allow yourself to just. And we're going a little quick, everybody, just so you know.

00;57;21;19 - 00;57;42;15
Murray Dueck
But time is of the essence a little bit. So and then you yeah, we take that sentence and that little piece and you write it down. Now again takes more time with this.

00;57;42;18 - 00;58;04;18
Murray Dueck
And take that little piece with you throughout the day and just repeat it. Put it into a little prayer. Lord, you know what's right. Because now, like, that's the word jumping out at me, that the meaning that you've just gotten will feel that word throughout your day. It's not just the word now, it's the memories and what God has said to you and to your connection to him.

00;58;04;21 - 00;58;23;14
Murray Dueck
And you're taking that little piece with you throughout the day or the week, and it's all coming. Not just what does the word mean in in Hebrew, it's, oh man, it's this about the nature of God and his relationship to me. And he brought all these times back, and it all comes right?

00;58;23;16 - 00;58;24;10
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;58;24;12 - 00;58;26;06
Murray Dueck
There you go.

00;58;26;08 - 00;58;54;19
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. And that's a that's a short framework that anybody can work through on, on, in any morning, any moment of your day. spend ten, 20 minutes working through some of those questions that Mary posed. Yeah. And like I said, we'll we'll put a link into the into the show notes about the, to to find that PDF that does a good job of summing up the practice.

00;58;54;21 - 00;58;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
and, and it's a, it's a practice that's been beneficial to both of us.

00;58;59;00 - 00;59;00;19
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;59;00;22 - 00;59;29;22
Joshua Hoffert
as I, I don't know if I've made mention of before, but I typically, pray through the Psalms once or twice a year. And, I find that to be incredibly life giving and, and, and practice these kind of rhythms when it comes to praying through the Psalms, and what better way to turn what better way to turn to prayer than to turn through the very words of God themselves?

00;59;29;22 - 00;59;30;01
Joshua Hoffert
Himself?

00;59;30;01 - 00;59;31;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah, absolutely.

00;59;31;28 - 00;59;50;09
Joshua Hoffert
And turn those into prayer. So, with with that said, we hope that this episode was rich and informative to you and would give you some good practices to carry on the rest of your week and your day with. And, we've got more episodes coming up, more planned. We've got a few episode, interview episodes coming up as well.

00;59;50;09 - 01;00;01;17
Joshua Hoffert
So you're going to hear some from some new guests, some new friends and, yeah, we've got some good stuff coming down the pipeline. So everybody, thanks so much for tuning in. And until next time.

01;00;01;19 - 01;00;03;15
Murray Dueck
Drop. Well, bless you, everybody. Thanks for hanging out.