Ignatian Exercises and Anthony the Great on Testing True Visions from God

In the 16th century, a man named Ignatius codified certain exercises that have become popular in the spiritual formation/direction/inner healing crowd today. Was he out to lunch? Can you track a history of said exercises? Join Josh and Murray as they explore the Ignatian exercises and cover Anthony the Great's tests of a true or false vision. 

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

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00;00;14;16 - 00;00;25;07
Joshua Hoffert
Under the expectation that there wouldn't be some kind of pictorial responses. It would be kind of asinine to think that you would picture something in response to you.

00;00;25;08 - 00;00;26;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah. God of.

00;00;26;05 - 00;00;53;08
Joshua Hoffert
Onslaught. Right? Yeah. Well, they never even, actually even to see yourself in the context of, you know, it's just your, your classic performance issue of gravity. You have to picture yourself in light of gravitas. You.

00;00;53;11 - 00;01;00;28
Murray Dueck
Welcome, everybody, to voices from the dead. Oh, I told you, you got real work.

00;01;01;02 - 00;01;05;04
Joshua Hoffert
You got really excited for that. Let's just go with it. Let's just go.

00;01;05;04 - 00;01;06;15
Murray Dueck
Cut that dirty again.

00;01;06;22 - 00;01;10;04
Joshua Hoffert
No, there's no the. Once it's done, it's done.

00;01;10;06 - 00;01;11;12
Murray Dueck
You know, it's funny. I was in this.

00;01;11;12 - 00;01;13;25
Joshua Hoffert
Footage from the desert.

00;01;13;28 - 00;01;30;28
Murray Dueck
I was in this little Anglican church. I was on Gabriel Island hanging out with Steve Stewart, and he wanted to take communion. So we went to this little Anglican church, which is a good story. And and at the end, you know, the old guys in the choir, I mean, I'm 50, whatever it is. And I'd be in the youth group, let's just say in this little church.

00;01;30;28 - 00;01;47;29
Murray Dueck
And this old guy came up to me after he goes, do you want to join the choir? And I'm like, I'm not from here. He goes, you're a great you're, you know, you're a great kind of tenor voice. I'm like, tenor. What are you talking about? And when I did that, I was like, he might be right.

00;01;48;01 - 00;01;53;11
Murray Dueck
He went through my brain and, you know, I was like, oh, no other day anyway.

00;01;53;14 - 00;02;18;20
Joshua Hoffert
Well, I you probably are a tenor and I because I, I edit all the audio files. Right. For anybody listening, I edit all the audio files. Oh that's funny. That's on my voice getting our voices, at the right levels and everything are, you know. You know, it's funny, actually, when I did, when I editing some of the podcasts I do with my own dad, the, the program that I use can't tell the difference between our voices.

00;02;18;24 - 00;02;21;06
Murray Dueck
What you're okay between you and your dad?

00;02;21;06 - 00;02;21;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Between me and.

00;02;21;27 - 00;02;22;12
Murray Dueck
Oh, wow.

00;02;22;12 - 00;02;27;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, it that's no problem telling the difference between you and I, but it has problems. Tell me the difference.

00;02;27;13 - 00;02;27;28
Murray Dueck
My dad.

00;02;27;29 - 00;02;30;12
Joshua Hoffert
Interesting. it is. Yes.

00;02;30;19 - 00;02;48;28
Murray Dueck
Well, you know, it's funny because he. I just did it right there the night Eric Jansen and I talked pretty similar. There's that similar. See how I went up like that? Not sure. I think it's kind of a mental thing. You know, I think it's a cultural mental thing because, Lulu, my friend in California, is like, how come you guys do that?

00;02;48;29 - 00;03;07;18
Murray Dueck
I'm like, I, I didn't realize I did, and I did. I did it again. Oh, wait, I get to do it. Yeah. So, because I've noticed that with some of my mental friends, you know, there's some good ethnic background stuff there. That's good. So anyway, I guess. Yeah, that's where the tenor comment came from. I think.

00;03;07;20 - 00;03;12;29
Joshua Hoffert
yeah. Yeah, yeah. All that. No, I, I thought you, I liked that intro. So we're going to just go with it.

00;03;13;01 - 00;03;16;02
Murray Dueck
I gotta keep it up here. I did like.

00;03;16;05 - 00;03;18;16
Joshua Hoffert
You got so Pentecostal on us. Like that was.

00;03;18;16 - 00;03;27;21
Murray Dueck
Pentecostal. well, I started thinking about. Are you ready to rumble? That's what I was thinking. Go over. But it it didn't come out that way at all.

00;03;27;25 - 00;03;34;25
Joshua Hoffert
Oh. That's right. Yeah. So. Oh, I guess we didn't do the the the coyote howl yet, so. Oh, you know. Oh, there we go. Yeah.

00;03;34;25 - 00;03;39;03
Murray Dueck
It just it needs to be there. It's tradition. Now we got to we have a tradition that's right.

00;03;39;03 - 00;03;39;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

00;03;39;27 - 00;03;40;10
Murray Dueck
I love you too.

00;03;40;11 - 00;03;45;23
Joshua Hoffert
Once. Yeah. So then now we've become legalists. That's what happens with tradition, right? We become legalistic about our tradition.

00;03;45;29 - 00;03;48;04
Murray Dueck
That's right. Got to do it every time.

00;03;48;05 - 00;03;55;13
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah, yeah. That's right. So yeah. Not not we're not downplaying tradition. Are both of us love church history?

00;03;55;20 - 00;03;56;05
Murray Dueck
That's right.

00;03;56;05 - 00;04;00;05
Joshua Hoffert
God fills the space of tradition very aptly so.

00;04;00;08 - 00;04;03;05
Murray Dueck
Communion as a tradition is very different than a coyote.

00;04;03;07 - 00;04;05;08
Joshua Hoffert
Than a coyote. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

00;04;05;15 - 00;04;05;28
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;04;06;03 - 00;04;07;02
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. Yeah.

00;04;07;02 - 00;04;08;29
Murray Dueck
There's no there's the same at all.

00;04;09;01 - 00;04;30;11
Joshua Hoffert
I remember I was, I was actually I was chatting with some of my, Orthodox monk friends, when I visited the monastery last year, just for some time away. And, one of the guys was talking about the liturgy and how there's a, there's a space in the liturgy where it says, I think it says, close the doors, close the doors are open, the doors open, it's close the doors.

00;04;30;14 - 00;04;49;12
Joshua Hoffert
And and he told me, now, this is this is I've heard from other people that you can make an argument against what he said, but he said, the reason why that got put into the liturgy was because of some of the areas of persecution where they needed to close the doors so that people couldn't see what was happening right.

00;04;49;15 - 00;04;52;10
Joshua Hoffert
And and so now it's just part of the liturgy.

00;04;52;13 - 00;04;53;13
Murray Dueck
Oh, isn't that funny?

00;04;53;13 - 00;05;09;25
Joshua Hoffert
But it was a very it was just kind of a functional thing. And then it turns into the tradition that you have to actually say it in the liturgy, and it's like, you don't need that. Like if that's the reason why it's there, it's there's no reason to have it there. That's right. Right.

00;05;09;27 - 00;05;10;27
Murray Dueck
But, you know, I mean.

00;05;10;28 - 00;05;15;01
Joshua Hoffert
You could remove it. You can't remove it. It's it's the liturgy.

00;05;15;04 - 00;05;16;19
Murray Dueck
That's right. It's sacred.

00;05;16;21 - 00;05;23;26
Joshua Hoffert
We love the liturgy. I'm we're not commenting on whether or not the liturgy is good or not. It's just it's just funny how humans are the way humans.

00;05;23;26 - 00;05;32;25
Murray Dueck
Well, it's nice to know the back story, though, and and to realize where that came from and, and how precious. I mean, that just tells you how precious the liturgy is, right? Yeah.

00;05;32;26 - 00;05;33;21
Joshua Hoffert
For sure.

00;05;33;24 - 00;05;49;08
Murray Dueck
I remember, reading a Reader's Digest, something that reminds me of this, and I might I'll get it a little bit wrong, because it's a it's a long time ago since I've read it. So this lady is making the Thanksgiving, roast, I think. I think it's like a big ham. It could be a turkey, but I don't think so.

00;05;49;10 - 00;06;04;25
Murray Dueck
And. And her mom has taught her to cut it down to a particular size and maybe even do it in a couple different pants. And she's always wondered about where this tradition came from, you know, because, well, this is just her mom goes, this is just how we do it. You. And she said, well, just make any sense.

00;06;04;25 - 00;06;07;23
Murray Dueck
And she's always done it that way for 20 years. Finally.

00;06;07;24 - 00;06;09;02
Joshua Hoffert
Better, you know? Whatever.

00;06;09;02 - 00;06;10;01
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Something.

00;06;10;04 - 00;06;12;08
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's you got all the reasons for it, right?

00;06;12;11 - 00;06;28;09
Murray Dueck
That's right. And her mom's like that makes it better. It's there. It takes more, you know. Anyway, let's you because you got to do it a couple times. It lets it sit and simmer more and and finally she asks her, her grandmother it she goes, why do why do you do this. You go, oh, when I was young we only had a very small pan.

00;06;28;16 - 00;06;29;00
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;06;29;03 - 00;06;30;22
Joshua Hoffert
So we had to cut the ham. I know I.

00;06;30;23 - 00;06;34;29
Murray Dueck
Forgot to have, it was totally practical. Had nothing to do with anything else.

00;06;34;29 - 00;06;35;14
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;06;35;14 - 00;06;38;05
Murray Dueck
Yeah, but now it's tradition. It's like, don't you have to do it? This.

00;06;38;06 - 00;06;58;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So it's amazing how we do that, right? It really is. Yeah. There is a beauty about tradition. We're again, we're not demeaning tradition because we're we're literally sitting here talking about the tradition like. But our our topic for the day Murray. Right is yeah flowing from last week where we talked about lectio divina and and contemplating a scripture.

00;06;58;00 - 00;07;17;06
Joshua Hoffert
We were we were thinking about this, how there's these contemplative exercises that we see. you know, we're talking about the, Ignatian exercises from Ignatius of Loyola, who is a 15th century Catholic mystic. Yeah. And, and presented so maybe, yeah, maybe 1500s, maybe the sixth.

00;07;17;06 - 00;07;18;18
Murray Dueck
Like, right early on there.

00;07;18;19 - 00;07;42;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and so these, these are popular exercises within the context of the kind of contemporary spiritual formation crowd. Right. And, and, you know, there's, there are certain outworking of this with, say, Carl Lehman and Emmanuel and the, the idea of Emmanuel prayer. Right. And or some of the things.

00;07;42;04 - 00;07;44;03
Murray Dueck
Which, Michael Sullivan was.

00;07;44;05 - 00;07;45;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. He talked to me talking.

00;07;45;12 - 00;07;45;22
Murray Dueck
Earlier.

00;07;45;22 - 00;07;50;15
Joshua Hoffert
About. Yeah. We talked. Yeah. Go back to, I think January, we had some interviews with him.

00;07;50;18 - 00;07;51;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I can watch those.

00;07;51;27 - 00;08;00;24
Joshua Hoffert
And, or the idea that a moment with God can be revisited, you know, and, and that's.

00;08;00;24 - 00;08;05;22
Murray Dueck
A big, we could do a whole series on that, because that's a massive statement.

00;08;05;25 - 00;08;32;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, but but some of these, like my, my point is that some of these beautiful statement, it really is. Yes. And and again Michael Sullivan talked about that. But some of these exercises are just kind of the natural outworking of some of the Ignatian exercises. Yeah. And find, find and and so sometimes, you know, the critique can go, well, they, they're, you know, they're 15th century 16th century exercises.

00;08;32;06 - 00;08;35;18
Joshua Hoffert
They're not Christian exercises in that sense. Right.

00;08;35;20 - 00;08;36;18
Murray Dueck
Those Catholics.

00;08;36;21 - 00;08;54;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Those. Yeah. The the Catholics messed everything up. And and then we've got, you know, in the especially in the charismatic Pentecostal world, there's that, the term that we tend that tends to get bandied about in this sense is the sanctified imagination and sanctification.

00;08;54;15 - 00;08;55;14
Murray Dueck
Of the imagination.

00;08;55;14 - 00;08;56;15
Joshua Hoffert
Invocation of the it's a good.

00;08;56;15 - 00;08;57;05
Murray Dueck
Rap song.

00;08;57;05 - 00;08;58;27
Joshua Hoffert
If you know. That's right. There you go. That's right.

00;08;59;00 - 00;08;59;19
Murray Dueck
You're right there.

00;08;59;21 - 00;09;00;20
Joshua Hoffert


00;09;00;22 - 00;09;02;11
Murray Dueck
There you were. That may go, but.

00;09;02;11 - 00;09;12;06
Joshua Hoffert
And so what we wanted to do in talking about, prayerful rhythms, yeah, lectio divina and examen.

00;09;12;06 - 00;09;12;22
Murray Dueck
Yep.

00;09;12;24 - 00;09;38;09
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah, we talked about the prayer of examen, and we're and we're just talking we're kind of going through what are what are practical ways that this, this relational thing plays out on a intimate person to God moment, right. Or whatever things that Marie and I do. We talk. We've been talking about the nuts and bolts of the bridal paradigm.

00;09;38;11 - 00;09;38;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;09;38;18 - 00;09;47;29
Murray Dueck
And and that's why we're, you know, why we're doing these saying. Yes. Well, how do you apply it. Right. Or. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Teaching or proxy. Right.

00;09;48;02 - 00;10;01;05
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. Yeah. And and so we thought well let's talk about, let's talk about this the quote unquote having a visions, you know, revelatory experiences in that sense.

00;10;01;05 - 00;10;01;17
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;10;01;18 - 00;10;14;09
Joshua Hoffert
Because those really do flow from lots of times, they'll flow from a, the kind of the state you enter into with something like the prayer of examen or with lectio divina.

00;10;14;14 - 00;10;15;27
Murray Dueck
Yeah, absolutely.

00;10;16;00 - 00;10;25;07
Joshua Hoffert
You said, before we started recording, we were talking about this and you said, well, just try and have someone read Psalm 23 without picturing themselves there.

00;10;25;09 - 00;10;40;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we should try that. Everybody just to, to to to get you a feel for this. So, maybe, maybe I'll just say a couple things. Yeah. So as far as inner healing model goes, we there is a lot now feel Fosdick y'all. That's a.

00;10;40;05 - 00;10;42;04
Joshua Hoffert
That's another that's another term. Yeah that's right.

00;10;42;08 - 00;11;07;08
Murray Dueck
the Baptist that's where. Who came up with that? The Baptist's inviting Jesus into into memory. I think that whole stream started with the Anglicans, as far as I know, out of the Charismatic Renewal that came out of Seattle in the 1980s. That's the first time I, I track the book down on that. Where. But the first time I experienced picturing Jesus, I was doing God Rock.

00;11;07;09 - 00;11;33;12
Murray Dueck
So 1993 or 4 and, and we're working with three kids and people are busted. And when one gal's dad is, you know, had a sex change and another is, you know, it's just it's horrible stuff, right? You're dealing with, you know, this one gal, you know, she's been in ten orphanages. I mean, just serious stuff, right? And so you're doing this this, you know, the band's playing rock and roll, and everybody's worshiping.

00;11;33;16 - 00;11;51;16
Murray Dueck
She's on the floor screaming, seeing demons. Right? And so, you know, all we know at this time, you know, this is 1993 two somewhere in there is, you know, come out Jesus name you evil, you know, and I mean, you got 200 kids and, you know, I'm supposed to teach this thing, you know, I'm supposed to be up there.

00;11;51;18 - 00;12;08;16
Murray Dueck
And so she's on the ground freaking out and describing this horrible thing she's saying. And I hear Jesus say in my head, what did you ask her? Where I am? I'm like, what? Right? And so I ask her, well, where's Jesus in her? In her picture, in her head. And she goes, oh, he's right here. Oh, he took care of it.

00;12;08;16 - 00;12;28;15
Murray Dueck
She got off and went dancing right? I'm like, what? That took? As long as I went to describe it, I'm like, that would usually take hours. And all she did was picture Jesus and bam. And we're like, there's something to this, right? You know, I and it got me. I mean, I didn't know anything about it. I mean, I'm a Mennonite man.

00;12;28;19 - 00;12;54;17
Murray Dueck
I knew nothing about Ignatius Loyola or picturing or whatever. Right? I just began to see that there was some connection between my ability to to imagine and at the same time have vision. And I wasn't sure what that was until, you know, Samuel's mental. You know, we're talking right now to how many, how long ago was that, you know.

00;12;54;17 - 00;12;55;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;12;55;03 - 00;13;07;27
Murray Dueck
It's been it's been a real journey. And somewhere I didn't really come across, I'd heard of it, but I didn't really come across Ignatius Loyola until 2000 and probably six, where I actually picked up, you know, the spiritual.

00;13;08;00 - 00;13;08;24
Joshua Hoffert
right.

00;13;08;26 - 00;13;12;29
Murray Dueck
Whatever it is he calls them, discipline, spiritual something.

00;13;12;29 - 00;13;21;29
Joshua Hoffert
The, yeah. Oh, gosh. It's not there. It's it's. I know what you mean. Yes. Yeah. The spiritual something or other. Yeah. The spiritual.

00;13;21;29 - 00;13;23;11
Murray Dueck
Exercises there. Yeah, yeah.

00;13;23;13 - 00;13;24;19
Joshua Hoffert
There you go. Yeah. So.

00;13;24;22 - 00;13;29;11
Murray Dueck
So really came at it from the back. And to realize there is a long church history of this.

00;13;29;12 - 00;13;30;06
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;13;30;08 - 00;13;32;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah. So I'll, I'll give you one more story. How about that. Yeah.

00;13;33;01 - 00;13;33;10
Joshua Hoffert
Go for.

00;13;33;10 - 00;13;57;05
Murray Dueck
It. This is good because people will like it. So do in class. Samuel's mantle. And you can. I'm still doing it. you can check that up. Josh and I both do stuff. You can. I'm sure he'll put the links there. We'd appreciate you guys checking it out. So do in class. And we're, And it's about five weeks in, so I'm still trying to figure out who's there because, you know, we're getting everything from charismatic Catholics to vineyards to Baptist to angry everybody.

00;13;57;05 - 00;14;15;17
Murray Dueck
Everybody. And you got to make sure everybody plays nice. So this particular year I've got a bunch of word faith girls, right. And God bless the word faith I can't say these. These are all word faith people. Let's just say these particular ladies could prophesy. But it was always about and you need to get out there and do it.

00;14;15;17 - 00;14;35;09
Murray Dueck
You know, you got to work, you know. So your prophecy was always about your, your work level or, or about the devil. And I, you know, going, oh boy, this is going to be a problem. Because, you know, as you know, Josh and I, it's about the father, right? It's about so, so one day, we've broken into groups first time week six, and everybody's praying for each other.

00;14;35;09 - 00;14;51;23
Murray Dueck
And I go to the bathroom and I come back, and these ladies, there's five of them. There's one lady they're praying for, and they're yelling, Satan, you come out of her in the name of Jesus. And you know, everybody in the room freaked out. And I'm like, what are you doing? Right? Because they've gone into their church culture and I'm like, stop, stop, stop, stop.

00;14;51;23 - 00;15;04;14
Murray Dueck
What are you doing? This lady's crying and I'm like, okay, what's happening? Oh, she has this bad picture of this thing. And and I'm like, okay. So I look at her and I go, so of course I've learned this from 1992.

00;15;04;18 - 00;15;04;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;15;04;27 - 00;15;22;08
Murray Dueck
Where's Jesus? Oh, he's look around the picture. He says he'll never leave us or forsake us. Where is he? Oh, he's he's right there. And and if you could step into Jesus shoes and look through his eyes. This big scary monster, what does it look like to him? It's a little worm. And she's. And what does Jesus want to do?

00;15;22;11 - 00;15;26;08
Murray Dueck
He wants to stop it. So she jumps out of her chair and starts stomping the ground.

00;15;26;14 - 00;15;27;08
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

00;15;27;11 - 00;15;42;27
Murray Dueck
And I said, well, every gift, good and perfect gift comes down from the father. It's beautiful. It's joy for morning. What would you want to replace it with? She goes and she starts weeping. There's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Oh my goodness, oh my shame I fear is all leaving. And I feel a little tug on my shirt.

00;15;43;00 - 00;15;56;01
Murray Dueck
And this lady goes. That was praying for her. Well, where'd the demons go? That usually takes us 2 to 3 hours. And I'm like, well, they'll fight you, but they won't fight Jesus as long as I describe it. That's how long it took.

00;15;56;08 - 00;15;57;14
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, right.

00;15;57;16 - 00;16;17;21
Murray Dueck
Because, you know, our Spirit and God's Spirit are one. He is there. Right? And to learn the reality that it's not just your imagination, there's somebody living inside of you. Yeah. Where your spirit and his spirit are tied together in union. Yeah. And how does that work? That's right. That's the journey here.

00;16;17;23 - 00;16;18;27
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;16;19;00 - 00;16;37;17
Murray Dueck
And and I'll just say one more thing. And then, Josh, you might want to read that Ruth for a quote might fit here but so and you guys do it all automatically. You have to realize when you read the Bible you're doing this either the heart function. Yeah. So again Ephesians one I pray that you have spirit of wisdom and revelation.

00;16;37;17 - 00;16;57;25
Murray Dueck
Know the glorious father, and that the eyes of your heart would open, that you would know the hope of your calling. His glorious inheritance in the saints. That's bridal paradigm, right? His inheritance and the word no. There is a word Ido. It means to look, to see. So in revelation, when John looks up and he sees that's that word.

00;16;57;25 - 00;17;17;03
Murray Dueck
But so you do this automatic, everybody. The Bible sets it up. So let's just do it quick. For those of you that are like, what? What are you talking okay, try this. So okay, if you're out there and you're like, no, you're not allowed to picture, you're not allowed to use the eyes of the heart. Try this. So then follow your theology through.

00;17;17;08 - 00;17;22;25
Murray Dueck
Don't picture this. I'm going to quote a piece of scripture. No, seeing it. Ready? Everybody.

00;17;22;28 - 00;17;24;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;17;24;02 - 00;17;39;16
Murray Dueck
No picturing. The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not be. And what? He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my.

00;17;39;16 - 00;17;42;22
Joshua Hoffert
Soul. You have to tell yourself not to picture it.

00;17;42;25 - 00;17;56;18
Murray Dueck
It's really hard, right? It is. Yeah. You anoint my head with oil, my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life. And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. I mean, how much of that is visual?

00;17;56;22 - 00;17;58;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, all of it.

00;17;58;11 - 00;18;20;22
Murray Dueck
All of it. How about the armor of God? Everybody block this. Yeah. Put on the helmet of salvation. The blessed plate of righteousness, the belt of truth. The shoes of the gospel of peace. And stand firm, right. with the sword of the spirit. I'm doing it off top of my head. And the shield of faith which to extinguish the flaming arrows of the evil one.

00;18;20;22 - 00;18;21;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;18;21;16 - 00;18;43;11
Murray Dueck
Anybody block that all out? Probably not. Right? Right. I mean, rabbinical teaching Jesus in parables is picking up on the prophetic literature of the Old Testament. Daniel, Ezekiel. And we're seeing it move forward into the book of Revelation as as a basic foundation of Jewish and Christian theology.

00;18;43;13 - 00;18;45;03
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;18;45;05 - 00;19;07;10
Murray Dueck
Do you need to test it? So like, again, we'll talk about that. But do not grieve the spirit. Do not despise prophecy. Let yourself picture, but then test it. Ephesians five right? No. Second Timothy 519. Test it with Scripture and fruit of the spirit. What does it produce? Inner witness confirmation. Bounce it off others. You know, there's lots of tests.

00;19;07;10 - 00;19;25;27
Murray Dueck
But first you got to give God something to test, right? And look at the fruit of it and look at the fruit of those to experience is that I just shared. I mean, does that produce the fruit of the spirit? People got free, they got delivered. They got to know the father. Absolutely. So when we do inner healing or spiritual direction, you know, doing a lot of that stuff.

00;19;25;27 - 00;19;29;18
Murray Dueck
Right? Anyway, there you go. That's my little rant to start with.

00;19;29;21 - 00;19;56;01
Joshua Hoffert
Well, and the like, you know, most, just thinking about the way a human thinks, humans tend to think in picture language. And then we articulate that with verbal, you know, the way that the way that language is developed right in every different area and sphere, different. You know, we happen to speak English because we grew up in North America.

00;19;56;04 - 00;20;22;14
Joshua Hoffert
and that's how we've learned to communicate the way that we picture and think like people think in pictures. Why the earliest languages are pictorial languages. Yes. Two hieroglyphics. Yeah. They're hieroglyphics, for example. Yeah. Semitic texts, ancient Semitic texts. They're almost all pictorial. And then they have a verbal component. But and that's because human beings think when we when we think, we tend to think in abstract picture form.

00;20;22;17 - 00;20;31;21
Joshua Hoffert
So like you read the story of Jesus calming the waters, and you picture the boat and you like, you just can't help but do it. It's just the way your brain functions.

00;20;31;22 - 00;20;33;20
Murray Dueck
Your brain is made that way.

00;20;33;21 - 00;21;00;20
Joshua Hoffert
Your brain's made that way. And so, in a way, the expectation that when God impresses himself upon the human soul, that there wouldn't be some kind of, you know, in a metaphysical way, there wouldn't be there would be the expectation that there wouldn't be some kind of pictorial responses. It would be kind of asinine to think that you wouldn't picture something in response to the impression, yeah, God upon the soul.

00;21;00;20 - 00;21;17;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah. And and even even actually even to see yourself in the context of, of, you know, let's just go your classic reformed position of total depravity. You have to picture yourself in light of total depravity. So.

00;21;17;20 - 00;21;18;06
Murray Dueck
That's right.

00;21;18;07 - 00;21;49;11
Joshua Hoffert
You you it's not it's it's beyond just a sense of depravity. But I see myself as a wretched human being in need of God's grace. So I actually have to be, in a way, revel literally picturing myself to then become part of the elect in the sense of total depravity and, an election. Right? because I can't see myself without picturing myself like, I actually have to.

00;21;49;13 - 00;22;09;19
Joshua Hoffert
Absolutely. And so the way the human brain works, when God moves upon the heart of the human, the mind of a human, the soul of a human, or whatever kind of language you want to use, there has to be a in a in a way, there has to be some kind of pictorial response to begin to describe, to articulate, and in a, in an inner way and an outer way.

00;22;09;19 - 00;22;16;05
Joshua Hoffert
If I'm trying to tell Marie about it, for instance, I, I have to be able to picture it, to see it and to experience it.

00;22;16;07 - 00;22;24;01
Murray Dueck
And you know what? In our culture, everyone like, you know, I often have I mean, it's a learned thing. And believe it or not, we have to unlearn not picturing.

00;22;24;06 - 00;22;24;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;22;24;29 - 00;22;38;21
Murray Dueck
Obviously, you know, look at the activations we just did. But for people like, oh well I can't picture you know I've it's often we've had a theology taught to us, well you're not allowed to do this because your imagination will lead you astray.

00;22;38;28 - 00;22;39;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;22;39;07 - 00;22;42;28
Murray Dueck
Well, we do it all that. See, if you think about that. Okay. Well, can you carry.

00;22;42;28 - 00;22;45;13
Joshua Hoffert
This conversation on? We have to be picturing something.

00;22;45;20 - 00;22;55;25
Murray Dueck
Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, like, if you if you. I mean, they even know now that when you picture based on what your.

00;22;55;25 - 00;22;56;17
Joshua Hoffert
Mysterious you're.

00;22;56;17 - 00;23;29;25
Murray Dueck
Doing, they, Yeah. Scientifically speaking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, in psychology, like, like right now, everybody, if you're listening, try this picture. Your favorite pet as a kid. picture the color of your front door as a kid and more. Many of you, you'll notice your eyes went up, right? Your eyes went up. and they've discovered now that the brain is actually accessing different files.

00;23;29;27 - 00;23;57;16
Murray Dueck
And, there's something called eMDR, eye movement desensitization and Reprocessing. Where in, in counseling, they'll have people move their eyes in certain ways because one accesses picture, others access feeling. And they just know that now. Right. And and just watch what your eyes did. You just automatically access file and and at and you know and it's funny that we can if I say imagine your kitchen renovation.

00;23;57;18 - 00;24;09;01
Murray Dueck
Imagine the new car you want. Imagine your favorite holiday. You can do it. Picture Jesus. No, I can't do that. Yeah, yeah. Oh wait it works. And all these other ones. And you can't do it with Jesus. Where did you learn that?

00;24;09;06 - 00;24;09;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;24;09;20 - 00;24;29;19
Murray Dueck
Guess what? Your church theology. Yeah. And and you know, and, you know, there was a somewhat of a good reason for it during, you know, the Protestant Reformation, there was a lot of Catholic abuses going on in indulgences, limbo, purgatory, you know, all kinds of stuff. The and a lot of the.

00;24;29;19 - 00;24;33;04
Joshua Hoffert
Purchasing of, of leadership positions, especially.

00;24;33;07 - 00;24;45;10
Murray Dueck
yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you know, all these things that the church was like, we got to check out the imagination. It's being abused. We just need gospel text because the printing press showed up. Right? That that's what we need. That'll fix it.

00;24;45;14 - 00;24;45;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;24;46;00 - 00;25;08;24
Murray Dueck
And and so in a lot of churches in my Mennonite churches, you don't even have stained glass windows. You've got a wooden cross. That's it. No picturing. Right. Because it's bad. Because look what the Catholics did. And so, you know, I, I grew up really repressed with picturing. And I think it still affects me. I really do, because I can see it on my eyelids a little bit fuzzy, but I could draw it.

00;25;08;27 - 00;25;50;19
Murray Dueck
But but I know it's accurate because when I if somebody goes, can you pray for me? And because here's my sense, it'll be right for 30 years, you know, but it takes a bit to overcome that. But, you know, there's a real movement now for the for the restoration or the sanctification, if you want to put that in the evangelical world with, with a lot of spiritual direction is showing up in this kind of thing and inner healing, like zeal, fasting that this part of the God created, he created it good that it's starting to be allowed to come back into our churches, right?

00;25;50;22 - 00;26;11;10
Murray Dueck
But it really did get tossed. And, you know, we're starting to see that. And and God bless the Catholics, they figure it out how to clean it up, put it with Scripture and make it about meeting Jesus instead of making you about indulgences or purgatory or, you know, they they straighten it out, you know,

00;26;11;12 - 00;26;38;20
Joshua Hoffert
You can by the way, you you had mentioned, coming across some of the stuff that was kind of rooted in the 80s, right? If you go, you can go back a bit further. And, in, in terms of a contemporary person who was, was practicing and teaching the healing of the memories, you know, that language, I, I'm pretty sure it was codified by, Agnes Sanford.

00;26;38;22 - 00;26;39;16
Murray Dueck
Oh, okay.

00;26;39;20 - 00;27;12;19
Joshua Hoffert
And Agnes Sanford, she, you know, she would have been teaching and doing that, and it was kind of stumbled upon, you know, inviting Jesus into the memory where she at and this rudimentary form of, the healing of the memories. you know, we're talking 40s. 50s. Wow. And, and then actually, Ruth Carter Stapleton, who was Jimmy Carter's sister or niece or something like that, I can't.

00;27;12;22 - 00;27;14;07
Murray Dueck
Oh, well.

00;27;14;09 - 00;27;37;12
Joshua Hoffert
she really popularized it as well. And you can, you know, she so, the. And Agnes Sanford writes about it, and her actually her son, John Sanford, not John Sanford of Elijah House. For the charismatic people listening, a different John Sanford, was a I'm pretty sure he wasn't a I'm pretty sure she was. And then he was an Episcopalian.

00;27;37;12 - 00;27;39;13
Joshua Hoffert
He was an Episcopalian priest.

00;27;39;15 - 00;27;40;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;27;41;02 - 00;28;02;27
Joshua Hoffert
and, and he actually became a union psychoanalyst. He was so interested in the psyche. Yeah. so so we can we can you can kind of. I actually have I have a book back on the bookshelf for those of you that are watching this video later, which we eventually sometimes post YouTube, the there's a book called A history of the cure of of Souls in there.

00;28;02;27 - 00;28;03;09
Murray Dueck
Oh.

00;28;03;12 - 00;28;36;16
Joshua Hoffert
They're interesting. So you would find in some of the, some of the kind of the, the sacramental prayers and things like this. you can find a form of this kind of thing on in, in many different ages of church history, basically is what I'm trying to say, where the, the, the imagination is expected to respond to the presence of God.

00;28;36;18 - 00;28;50;04
Joshua Hoffert
And, and so, you know, you mentioned the John Lewis Brook, which I'll read in just a second. And what I want to do is get back also to some stuff that Anthony. So we're going further and further back some stuff in the Anthony the Great talk.

00;28;50;04 - 00;28;53;14
Murray Dueck
Which is good. Everybody to see the the continuation.

00;28;53;16 - 00;28;56;06
Joshua Hoffert
And that's right. Yeah. We want we want to help people. I think.

00;28;56;08 - 00;28;57;07
Murray Dueck
It's important.

00;28;57;09 - 00;29;08;08
Joshua Hoffert
We think you can make a I mean it's no it's no surprise that you read scripture and you go people had visions, right? They saw things like, yeah, but I don't think we need to make a case for that. Right. Like it's obvious this.

00;29;08;08 - 00;29;14;24
Murray Dueck
Is about like, I think it's the you know, a third of your Bible is connected to or to be exact, one way or another. So.

00;29;14;24 - 00;29;33;10
Joshua Hoffert
So no, I think the part what what can get people confused in a modern way in our modern age is, you know, some people were raised in a system where that stuff stopped at either the, the canonization of Scripture or the death of the apostles.

00;29;33;10 - 00;29;35;03
Murray Dueck
Yeah, that's me right. That's my midnight.

00;29;35;03 - 00;29;48;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. There. Well, there's some people that have that some people who, they're it's kind of it maybe it's like it's it's all like everything is visions. And we see things all the time, and then it gets a bit.

00;29;48;12 - 00;29;51;05
Murray Dueck
go back and see, the prophetic Manifesto, every god.

00;29;51;06 - 00;29;51;21
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;29;51;21 - 00;29;52;03
Murray Dueck
Like.

00;29;52;06 - 00;30;13;10
Joshua Hoffert
We're going to heaven every other day and blah, blah, blah. You know, there's crazy stuff like that happened in two. So we've got, we've got, like, polar ends of the spectrum. So yeah, we find things like the Ignatian exercises and we go, oh, well, this is a nice balanced approach to pointing the imagination towards Jesus in a way that would experience his loving, tender embrace and bring transformation to the character of the human heart.

00;30;13;10 - 00;30;16;17
Joshua Hoffert
So that's why we. Yeah, we like things like that. Right. So real.

00;30;16;17 - 00;30;19;27
Murray Dueck
Estate bases it completely ad stepping into Scripture.

00;30;20;04 - 00;30;21;23
Joshua Hoffert
Which is exactly which is great for those.

00;30;21;23 - 00;30;25;23
Murray Dueck
Of you, you're like, well, where is the Bible? No, he's the Bible is the framework.

00;30;25;25 - 00;30;26;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;30;26;13 - 00;30;26;22
Murray Dueck
Right.

00;30;27;00 - 00;30;28;24
Joshua Hoffert
And it it has to be like and that's why.

00;30;28;24 - 00;30;29;21
Murray Dueck
We're absolutely we're.

00;30;29;21 - 00;30;39;09
Joshua Hoffert
Talking about it in this episode because last episode we talked about elected a Venus. So what's going to happen. And lectio divina is you're going to start picturing things. Yeah. It just and.

00;30;39;11 - 00;30;41;18
Murray Dueck
How your are wired. It's yeah.

00;30;41;19 - 00;30;55;12
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yes that's right. So there there's this quote I don't want to go through the whole quotes way too long. But basically Ruiz Brooke describes a prayerful state. Someone enters into.

00;30;55;17 - 00;30;57;07
Murray Dueck
And what year are we talking for him?

00;30;57;10 - 00;31;02;10
Joshua Hoffert
14th century. So he died at the end of the 14th century. 13. Oh, wow. 1380 or something.

00;31;02;10 - 00;31;06;19
Murray Dueck
So he's like 100 and a bit years before Ignatius. Yes.

00;31;06;19 - 00;31;31;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and Ruiz. Ruiz Brooke was in was a immensely influential Catholic mystic in his day. He's he's not nearly as popular today as someone like John of the cross or Teresa. I think Ruiz broke his his the metaphors and the analogies he used just they're just not as timeless. I mean, John, as John's are so simple, right?

00;31;31;09 - 00;31;51;05
Joshua Hoffert
And and Teresa's are so like, I was walking through seven, seven rooms in a house and each room represents an area of prayer like that's Teresa of Avila, right? That's super simple, right, John? Oh, like, imagine yourself like a log in the fire. Like it's super simple, right? Ruiz. Bro looks a little bit more complicated and heady. So I think that's probably one of the reasons why it's not what you.

00;31;51;05 - 00;31;54;04
Murray Dueck
John of the cross bed. He's more 1500s is all right.

00;31;54;04 - 00;32;03;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 16th century. Yeah. 15, 15, 1600s. Yeah. and Saint Teresa's, you know, contemporary somewhere right there.

00;32;03;12 - 00;32;10;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Cool. I didn't know that, you know, I haven't read that much about it because I've, again spent most of my time on the eastern guys.

00;32;10;14 - 00;32;16;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And the eastern guys are a lot more suspicious of the imagination in that sense.

00;32;16;13 - 00;32;25;29
Murray Dueck
Yeah, we'll get into that. Everybody. Yeah. The eastern guys would right now get up and walk out of the room. The Desert Fathers, like the imagination is like verboten. And they talk in Greek.

00;32;26;04 - 00;32;27;23
Joshua Hoffert
And there's there is something.

00;32;27;27 - 00;32;29;07
Murray Dueck
There's well.

00;32;29;07 - 00;32;53;27
Joshua Hoffert
There's something to be said for the, the exaggerated use. And, you know, people are easily deceived by their own imagination. And so that is a, that is a very real problem that you have to talk about when it comes to visions and, and imagining things and, and so and then we've got to not.

00;32;53;27 - 00;32;54;28
Murray Dueck
Knowing the difference.

00;32;55;03 - 00;33;29;27
Joshua Hoffert
Not knowing the difference. Yeah. Exactly. Because you've got to characterize well, you've got to characterize the difference between what you described in in those two stories. Right. Picture Jesus and where was he and, and the, the level of freedom and, and you know, the kind of the sense of God's sovereign power and presence in that moment. And, what someone like Ruiz Broek is talking about when he talks about this prayerful state that you enter into and then visions begin to occur to you.

00;33;29;29 - 00;33;53;24
Joshua Hoffert
So there is I mean, there is a bit of a difference between those two things. And, you know, both of them have their place, right when we talk. Because, because, because the word it's hard because the word vision can apply to Isaiah six. Right? I saw the Lord high and lifted up. He's in the train. He's in the the, the temple, and for that matter, I know the word.

00;33;53;27 - 00;33;54;22
Joshua Hoffert
And John.

00;33;54;22 - 00;33;55;08
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;33;55;11 - 00;34;13;07
Joshua Hoffert
You know, I, I looked and behold, and I was caught up into, through a door. Right. And I saw the, the, you know, the heavenly throne and all this kind of stuff. Right. And, and so we call that a vision and, and then we'd talk about, well, you know, you know, where's Jesus in the memory? And we call that a vision.

00;34;13;07 - 00;34;15;24
Joshua Hoffert
And it's like, well, that can be super confusing for people, right?

00;34;15;27 - 00;34;39;03
Murray Dueck
Because, well, I think, you know, as we break down even rubrics thing here, it's it's that transition, this partnership between us using our imagination and then realizing that Jesus is in there and he starts to interact. Yeah. And and we're always waiting for him to start it when sometimes it's like, it's it's joint, it's fellowship, it's koinonia.

00;34;39;06 - 00;34;50;03
Murray Dueck
It's not either or. It's both. And and it's, it's hard to break it down. I mean, that's why you need it is, it is. And or and fruit and goodness and confirmation and bouncing it off others. Right. I think I missed one.

00;34;50;05 - 00;34;56;20
Joshua Hoffert
Well, in a way. Well, you know, and in a way these things are very difficult to talk about.

00;34;56;22 - 00;34;58;27
Murray Dueck
yeah. Because we were talking about something that is a mystery.

00;34;58;28 - 00;35;15;22
Joshua Hoffert
It's a mystery. Right. And so that in our mind we want to codify it. We want the list, we want the perfect descriptions and explanations. And for one, Scripture is not concerned about doing that. And for two, the father is not really concerned about doing that. Right. Like it took 400 years for the church to iron out language to talk about the Trinity.

00;35;15;24 - 00;35;16;06
Joshua Hoffert
It's like.

00;35;16;06 - 00;35;16;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;35;16;20 - 00;35;32;06
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Like the God didn't go, well, here's the perfect language to talk about it. The church was like, well, this is what Scripture says and this is what we think. We can say this the limitations, what we can say. So here's the calcitonin creed, where we can finally kind of lay out the nature of Jesus right? And right now we're at 451, right?

00;35;32;06 - 00;35;51;25
Joshua Hoffert
And you're like, oh, you're like, okay, well, Scripture is not too concerned with codifying it perfectly. It's so the Western mind is yeah, Scripture is not right. And so, so we're going, okay, well this is a it's a it's a hard thing to talk about because when we say vision Isaiah six he had a vision and we say you know picture.

00;35;52;01 - 00;36;10;01
Murray Dueck
There's so many different levels of vision. Right. And so from simple picture to seeing the heavens open and, and there's somebody standing in front of. Yeah. Like Daniel and chapter eight, I was the only one who saw the man standing by the river. Exactly right. Fear like, so very different level.

00;36;10;06 - 00;36;26;02
Joshua Hoffert
So do we want to try and perfectly define, you know, the quote unquote even even, like trying to go like, I don't think Daniel would ever go, what was this level of vision, right? Or Anthony the Great, for that matter. What was this like? Because we think so differently than they did.

00;36;26;05 - 00;36;26;13
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;36;26;15 - 00;36;53;27
Joshua Hoffert
So part of the problem is that we're trying to fit ourselves into a way where we find ourselves in a 21st century framework, trying to talk about things that people wrote about and talked about in a third century framework with an third, fourth century that Daniel, seventh century, you know, BC right. And so you're going, well, this you just can't talk the same way and then expect that the culture to translate, the words to translate and all that.

00;36;53;27 - 00;37;00;29
Joshua Hoffert
So we do have to say on some level, we just chalk throw our hands up in the air and say, it is a mystery, right? So that's all.

00;37;01;04 - 00;37;07;00
Murray Dueck
You know it more to know more about this, everybody. there's these great prophetic classes that you can take. Yeah.

00;37;07;03 - 00;37;09;28
Joshua Hoffert
Samuel's mantle. Right. Go to Samuel's mantle.com and you'll.

00;37;09;28 - 00;37;11;11
Murray Dueck
See the weird ministry.

00;37;11;14 - 00;37;14;08
Joshua Hoffert
We've got. We definitely have some classes on the wind training academy.

00;37;14;08 - 00;37;30;01
Murray Dueck
And so and you know like back in the day you know you know he's on a journey to with his theology is God bless him. But he wrote this book called can You Hear me back in like 2004 or 5 if you're like, oh, I need to break this down more, that that would be a good place.

00;37;30;01 - 00;37;30;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;37;30;28 - 00;37;31;04
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;37;31;05 - 00;37;38;22
Joshua Hoffert
So and and and and we'll also I'll say this too from is if you need to break it down more, just stop.

00;37;38;24 - 00;37;39;06
Murray Dueck
Yeah.

00;37;39;12 - 00;37;44;05
Joshua Hoffert
All right. Just just give yourself just give yourself a little bit to the mystery. But you're.

00;37;44;05 - 00;37;46;29
Murray Dueck
Right. So, like, Peter's, dad's book is good, right?

00;37;47;05 - 00;37;47;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;37;47;19 - 00;37;51;29
Murray Dueck
That's right. So Peter's vision, right? All the vision, you know, how does a Gentile church come in?

00;37;52;02 - 00;37;52;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;37;52;12 - 00;38;11;18
Murray Dueck
Crazy vision. I mean, we would want a letter to come down from heaven. Okay? Christians are letting the Gentiles in. We're going to get rid of the feet or the temple we're going to. And, you know, acts 15. It seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit. Yeah. What that's all you got? And you're going to change your religious culture entirely based on it seems good.

00;38;11;23 - 00;38;12;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Wow.

00;38;12;15 - 00;38;15;02
Murray Dueck
I mean, yeah, that's not what we want today. We want.

00;38;15;04 - 00;38;43;16
Joshua Hoffert
No voice. That's right. So Russ Broke says this. Okay. Just so we can get this one out there. So he's describing this person who is in, this, very significant prayerful state. you know, we might call it a trance. He talks about the interior eyes of the heart, contemplating the heavenly palace. And he's and he sees God as beloved and and oftentimes when they're talking about seeing God, they're not necessarily talking about an actual literal representation.

00;38;43;18 - 00;39;06;19
Joshua Hoffert
They're talking about the eyes of the heart being arrested by the presence of Jesus and being drawn so far outside of themselves that they kind of lose a sense of where they are, who they are, and when they are. and so then he says this, he says, and he's talking about tears and yearning and blah, blah, blah, and it says, let's see, where is it?

00;39;06;19 - 00;39;31;00
Joshua Hoffert
I'm just looking on my thing. It says, yeah. So he says, from this transport of restlessness, a person is sometimes caught up in the spirit above the senses. There he is told in words or shown in images and representations, some truth which he or others need to know, or some event which is still to come. This is what is called revelations or visions.

00;39;31;02 - 00;40;02;16
Joshua Hoffert
It is a matter of corporeal images. corporeal image, corporeal images. Like bodily images. You means like, you know, seeing things. A person receives them in his imagination. An angel may bring this about in him through the power of God is a it is a matter of intellectual truths. Or if it is a matter of intellectual truths or spiritual representations, in which God reveals himself in his fathomless being, then a person receives them in his understanding and may formulate them in words insofar as they are expressible in this way.

00;40;02;19 - 00;40;25;22
Joshua Hoffert
So in a prayerful state where a man kind of loses a sense of himself and is caught up in contemplating the glory of God, he may be shown revelations or visions concerning things to come, concerning certain truths that people need to be known. This can happen in imagery that's presented to his imagination. We can think of it as an angel on behalf of God, presenting certain things to him.

00;40;25;25 - 00;40;45;09
Joshua Hoffert
If it has to do with the glory of God, he's probably going to understand something and have to try and communicate with words what he said or what he was shown right. So. So this is rooster up 14th century going, explaining what happens to people, what tends to happen to people when they are in a quote unquote mystical state.

00;40;45;12 - 00;41;03;16
Joshua Hoffert
This this can happen to certain people. Is what he's saying, right? And, and so, you know, this is this is 1300 years removed from the the last apostle, 1350 years removed from the last apostle. And he's going, we've seen these things happen right now.

00;41;03;18 - 00;41;05;07
Murray Dueck
It's it's own. Sorry. Keep going.

00;41;05;08 - 00;41;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. No no no no, you go ahead. You go ahead.

00;41;06;23 - 00;41;12;23
Murray Dueck
Well it's it's yeah it's interesting there everybody because he starts out contemplating heaven. So he's picturing it. What's going on up there.

00;41;12;25 - 00;41;13;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;41;13;04 - 00;41;31;05
Murray Dueck
And certainly there is a change where revelation comes even the angelic right. Once he once he sets his mind in the right place. So Evelyn Underhill and I'm going to butcher this quote because I, I, I'll find it for next week. Exactly. the he wrote this book on mysticism, like 1912 or 15 or so.

00;41;31;05 - 00;41;31;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah.

00;41;31;26 - 00;42;08;09
Murray Dueck
Very big influence in C.S. Lewis by the way. she let him have it, but his view of animals and, and, he, he, you know, she got all these theology about that, animals from Evelyn Underhill, just so you know, throw that out there. You know, kudos to Evelyn Underhill. So she says the mystic pictures, scripture, and the picture becomes a window into which the mystic stares out into the, the heavenly universe, how she knows not and encounters the variable presence of God.

00;42;08;14 - 00;42;09;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;42;09;06 - 00;42;10;08
Murray Dueck
Something like that. Right?

00;42;10;08 - 00;42;10;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah.

00;42;10;29 - 00;42;30;00
Murray Dueck
So, so you looking in, so you kind of kind of think of it like this. How does this work? I mean, We kind of do this all the other time with other gifts, right? So that we understand there's koinonia, there's this partnership between us and the gifts of the spirit.

00;42;30;03 - 00;42;30;16
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;42;30;22 - 00;42;50;12
Murray Dueck
So if I would say I want to do evangelism, I get in my car, I go downtown. If I'm going to preach a sermon, I, I open my Bible and I start to read. If I want to pray healing for somebody, I'm going to stretch out my hand and put it on somebody. If I'm going to, worship, I'm going to strum my guitar.

00;42;50;12 - 00;43;07;14
Murray Dueck
Right? But we often say, well, if it's a vision, it's just going to happen, right? You know, and instead of realizing there's a human component. So when you read Habakkuk two, it says, I will stand in my rampart and look to see what the Lord will say to me. So he has to look to see before he sees.

00;43;07;20 - 00;43;22;18
Murray Dueck
Right? So, so think of it like this. Me and my wife were driving down the road. We need to buy something for the farm. And she's driving. She goes, oh, I forgot to get such and such. Can you look out the window and see it's a store open. I have to actually turn my head. I've got to activate my gear.

00;43;22;18 - 00;43;45;20
Murray Dueck
Right. And I have to look right and and it starts out as, as an act. And, and you step into a relationship and you and it's simple as ask and it will be given to you. Right. Very simple. Right. Asking you to be given to you. So, How about we do one with everybody super quick, super easy.

00;43;45;21 - 00;43;46;10
Joshua Hoffert
Yep. Go ahead.

00;43;46;14 - 00;44;02;16
Murray Dueck
Okay. So everyone let's just do a little. So active imagination. Passive imagining active imagination. It's us doing it. Passive imagination is us just waiting for what the Lord's going to show. Okay, you might get a sense, the feel, the picture or thought they were.

00;44;02;16 - 00;44;12;07
Joshua Hoffert
Close your eyes and just pictures occur to you, right? I mean, that happens to everybody. Like regardless of whether you're in a prayerful state or not. Yeah. Passive is okay.

00;44;12;10 - 00;44;33;14
Murray Dueck
Let's let's try something. So everyone, think about the armor of God because we've pictured that since childhood. Probably if we've grown up in the church helmet of salvation, breastplate of righteousness, belt of truth, shoes of the gospel of peace, right? Sword of the spirit, shield of faith. There it is. And you might get a sense, a picture, a thought, a feeling.

00;44;33;14 - 00;44;57;03
Murray Dueck
It's all good for what we're doing here. Okay, so just think about life right now. All that armor is yours. It's given to you by God. But if you could use one piece right now, which piece could you use? Do you need some faith? Ask for that shield. You need some piece. Ask for those shoes. So, thinking about the armor and what's going on in your life, what piece would you ask for?

00;44;57;03 - 00;45;01;09
Murray Dueck
First, it was up to you.

00;45;01;11 - 00;45;27;05
Murray Dueck
Until Jesus, why? Boy, I think I could sure use that today. Here's what's going on. Jesus. Okay. Okay, so part two. So, Lord Jesus, let's just talk to him. Jesus. You know, the piece of armor I would choose. If it's up to me. Jesus, if you could pick a piece of the armor first to pass me, which piece would you pick?

00;45;27;07 - 00;45;32;12
Murray Dueck
Would you pick the same piece or a different piece?

00;45;32;14 - 00;45;48;17
Murray Dueck
And it might be the same. You're so pathetic. You just nailed it. But. But if it was up to Jesus, which piece of the armor would he pass you today? And why? That piece?

00;45;48;19 - 00;46;04;20
Murray Dueck
And all the promises are yes and amen. Lord, if you could put a promise you could engrave in in this piece of armor, what would you. What would it be?

00;46;04;23 - 00;46;18;06
Murray Dueck
Lord, when you see me accept this from you, what do you feel in your heart would be the expression on your face? Would you want to say to me?

00;46;18;08 - 00;46;37;24
Murray Dueck
And now you got to test that with Scripture. What does the Bible say? Fruit of the spirit. Does it produce peace, joy, goodness, patience? Inner witness? Does it feel okay? Inner witness is important. Bouncer of other people confirmation. If it's God, he's going to keep talking about that again and again and again. I give you that promise again.

00;46;37;26 - 00;47;04;20
Murray Dueck
He'll keep talking to you. Let's say you got the shield. He'll keep talking to you about faith again and again, you know. But see, there's there is us. I asked, this is what I want, Lord. What do you want to do? And and very simple. It just kind of lay it out and and you build faith. Everybody. You know, when you prophesy, you prophesy according to the level of your face, like John 12 686 12 six.

00;47;04;22 - 00;47;05;03
Murray Dueck
Roman.

00;47;05;04 - 00;47;05;24
Joshua Hoffert
Romans.

00;47;06;01 - 00;47;07;28
Murray Dueck
Oh, sorry. Yes, sir. I why did I say 12?

00;47;07;28 - 00;47;08;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Romans 12.

00;47;08;26 - 00;47;27;26
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Very different. So. And it's fun how the Lord builds it. I was telling Josh this story earlier on because, you know, I have just like everyone out of you who just did this activation I have in my head. Oh, I'm making that up. That's what I want to hear. What an active imagination I have. Right. But you need confirmation, right?

00;47;27;26 - 00;47;46;19
Murray Dueck
You need the Lord to keep giving it to you. If it's him, he's going to keep speaking. So, I was driving to class one day, and I was listening to the the U2 song It's a Beautiful Day. And it was a beautiful day. Beautiful sunny day. Driving through the country, going the long way. And I go, Lord, what would you want to show me today?

00;47;46;22 - 00;48;02;15
Murray Dueck
And he shows me this picture of a child like drawn cloud. Like with pastels, you know, big happy face on the cloud. Two clouds, happy faces and the sun. Big child like drawn sun and pastels with a big happy face. Childlike. And I'm like, oh, I'm making that up. That's just me. How stupid. Why would I see that?

00;48;02;19 - 00;48;22;12
Murray Dueck
Of course I'm listening to a song called It's a Beautiful Day and it's a beautiful day, and I see a picture of a beautiful day, of course. Right. And so I get to the church I'm supposed to be doing class in, and we usually do class in the sanctuary and the sanctuary air conditioners out or something. So they move us into the nursery room and I'm opening in prayer.

00;48;22;12 - 00;48;40;02
Murray Dueck
Everyone, let's pray. Before we get started, just set the chairs up. You know, a little busy. I look up and there on the back wall is the exact two clouds with happy faces and the exact sun in pastel with a big happy face. Exactly what I saw. Where I said before, I making that up. That's my imagination. That's what I want to see.

00;48;40;02 - 00;49;00;12
Murray Dueck
I didn't make that up because I didn't know that was there. But see, you got to give God something to test. Do you not grieve the spirit? Do not despise prophecy, interact, then test the heck out of it. Right? Right. Bounce it off, people. Confirmation. Enter. Witness. What is scripture? Say? What is the fruit of the spirit? Be ruthless.

00;49;00;15 - 00;49;27;04
Murray Dueck
Hang on to the good right. Get rid of the bad. Right. So. And you just. But as God walks with you and confirms these things, you begin to realize, wow, that not just me and that lie starts to dissolve and it becomes a habit of having this inner conversation without being critical, without being judgmental, without being fearful. And your faith grows and you realize it's not just your imagination.

00;49;27;06 - 00;49;48;00
Murray Dueck
You're having koinonia, and it's a back and forth relationship with someone who loves you and lives inside of you that has thus spirit of revelation. So again, Ephesians one I pray God would give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation, and the eyes of your heart would open that you would know right? Adam? New Eve there. I think I could be wrong.

00;49;48;03 - 00;50;09;16
Murray Dueck
You know, his glorious inheritance in the saints. And it's back to bridal intimacy again. It's about being known and and knowing very intimately. And that's what these gifts are for. Once it starts to get used for vision and building and in times and, you know, see prophetic Manifesto notes, right? You know, it gets off, it gets off track.

00;50;09;16 - 00;50;24;02
Murray Dueck
But, you know, these gifts activate and God's in there, and he wants us to learn how to see and know him. I only do what I see my father doing right. I mean, there we go.

00;50;24;04 - 00;50;25;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;50;25;02 - 00;50;25;24
Murray Dueck
But hopefully.

00;50;25;24 - 00;50;51;11
Joshua Hoffert
That. Oh, that's good, that's good. the so looking at because that just bridges really well with our final segment of today's podcast, we'll talk about Anthony the Great. Yeah. His tests of a true vision. now I will well characterize the, the Anthony the Great and, largely the Desert Fathers with, you know, I said earlier, right.

00;50;51;12 - 00;51;06;06
Joshua Hoffert
We've got like, the, the kind of everything has to be a vision. We must picture everything. Right? We're going to we're going to heaven every single day, and we're going to juggle town and all this weird stuff that we'll make up right. And then you've got the people are.

00;51;06;06 - 00;51;09;20
Murray Dueck
Like, what are you talking about? But, you know, we'll come back to that another day, everyone.

00;51;09;26 - 00;51;31;03
Joshua Hoffert
And then you've got, like Murray, you were saying like one. If you're people use these kind of things to try and build their ministry and build their platform and build their vision and, and, and so on, and. Okay, so, you know, so now we've got degrees of how people use an employee this stuff. Then we've got Ignatian exercises.

00;51;31;03 - 00;51;40;11
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Good, healthy, holy. within the context of Scripture, all that. Then we've got some of the Orthodox guys going, don't ever do it right.

00;51;40;13 - 00;51;46;28
Murray Dueck
And which is kind of funny because if you go to Orthodox Church, it's covered in icons. Oh yeah.

00;51;46;28 - 00;51;48;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. You. Yeah. That's right.

00;51;48;25 - 00;51;49;19
Murray Dueck
And,

00;51;49;21 - 00;51;54;06
Joshua Hoffert
Maybe that's why they don't they've, they're already evoking all the images there. That's right. Yeah. But and.

00;51;54;06 - 00;51;54;25
Murray Dueck
Then it up.

00;51;54;25 - 00;52;29;03
Joshua Hoffert
But and then we can go let's go patristic. Right. And we'll look at Anthony the Great and go, well yeah, Anthony the Great. I haven't found a place where he counsels his disciples to sit down and picture where Jesus is in a memory or in the room or anything like that. But he does offer in his letters to his disciples, all of the things that set the stage for those types of things to happen, because he goes here, here is how to recognize a vision from God.

00;52;29;06 - 00;52;36;00
Joshua Hoffert
Here is how to recognize a vision from the enemy. And here's how to respond in the moment that you are having a vision.

00;52;36;03 - 00;52;36;23
Murray Dueck


00;52;36;25 - 00;53;03;10
Joshua Hoffert
So this is very clear instruction like there's no question about it. Very clear instruction. So he's not saying he doesn't say okay well here have visions. But he definitely sets the expectation that these types of things are going to happen. And they're going to need to know how to weigh and test them. Right. And his his instruction is thoroughly couched in, in biblical imagery.

00;53;03;13 - 00;53;12;07
Joshua Hoffert
And so he's quoting the Bible all the time and going, well, this is why you test. That is why you say that. That's why you do this. So I think what I'll do is I'll read a passage. This is coming.

00;53;12;07 - 00;53;12;19
Murray Dueck
Up to hear.

00;53;12;19 - 00;53;20;18
Joshua Hoffert
It, by the way, from the average Latinos, which is, hey, if you go to the center for Traditional Orthodox Study, you can find.

00;53;20;18 - 00;53;21;24
Murray Dueck
A Greek rock band.

00;53;21;27 - 00;53;40;00
Joshua Hoffert
yeah. Yeah. That's right. No, it's a it's a collection of writings, four volume collection of writings of kind of, encapsulates what the Desert Fathers taught when it came to the spiritual life. so here, this is Anthony speaking to his disciples. Writing to his disciples. so I don't think this is in the life of Anthony.

00;53;40;00 - 00;53;59;21
Joshua Hoffert
I know, I'm pretty sure this isn't, this is actually in his letters to his disciples, for he says this for visions of the saints do not produce any agitation, as is expressed by the saying in Isaiah 42 two. Well, he doesn't say Isaiah 42 two. I'm saying that as is expressed by the saying, he shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

00;53;59;27 - 00;54;19;29
Joshua Hoffert
So right away he's already anchoring the experience in Scripture. He's going, look, Scripture said this, so we know when it happens, it's the same. Such visions take place in quietness and meekness, such that joy, gladness, and courage immediately appear in the soul. This happens because the Lord is with the saints and our Lord is our is our joy, as is the might of God the Father.

00;54;20;01 - 00;54;41;03
Joshua Hoffert
During such visions, the thoughts of one soul remain undisturbed and are not agitated like the waves of a rough sea during good visions, what visions which come from God, the soul beholding angels or saints, becomes illumined, for there enters into it a yearning for divine and future good things, and it absolutely desires to become one with those who have appeared, and even to go with them, if such were possible.

00;54;41;06 - 00;55;06;25
Joshua Hoffert
If it should happen that some take fright at the vision of good angels, the latter immediately removes this fear from the soul by the power of love, as did the archangel Gabriel. For Zacharias and the angel appeared to the myrrh bearing women at the tomb of the resurrection, as well as the angel who said to the shepherds of the Nativity of our Savior, fear not for the fear potentially caused by visions of good entities is not caused by mental cowardice, but rather by the awareness of the presence of lofty beings.

00;55;06;27 - 00;55;27;05
Joshua Hoffert
Okay, so that whole that whole passage. Right? So he's telling them visions are going to happen. Here's where we see them happening in Scripture. Here's how people responded in Scripture and here's how we characterize those things. So if we were to characterize his what a true heavenly vision, some characteristics that Anthony of the great, you know, the Western mind likes codifying things are making lists.

00;55;27;05 - 00;55;50;17
Joshua Hoffert
So here's a list. So a characteristics of a true heavenly vision, according to Anthony the Great One, they do not produce agitation. Okay. so you wouldn't you won't be at, you know, this this stirring up this anxiety. They don't produce anxiety. We might say the same thing, right? Yeah. They take place in quietness and meekness. So in quietness, in humility, humbling yourself before the Lord.

00;55;50;19 - 00;56;13;26
Joshua Hoffert
Quietness is an actual practice, right? This would be the Greek word, I'm assuming here. Anyway, I haven't looked at the Greek, but the Greek word Hezekiah, which would mean in the place of peace and stillness. It's a practice in the spiritual life, so they take place in Hezekiah in times of prayer and quiet meekness, not puffed up in pride, but in tenderness and humility.

00;56;13;28 - 00;56;33;00
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. So they take place in those spaces, which is what essentially what Ruth's Brooks said in prayer. These things will happen, right? Joy, gladness and courage appear in the soul is another thing. He says. So you will be encouraged. You will be return. You will return to joy. You will be glad. You know these all these things will work themselves out right?

00;56;33;05 - 00;56;57;01
Joshua Hoffert
Well, in a way, this is what this is what Murray described with the first example of the girl seeing Jesus who had been demonized and was all of a sudden free joy, gladness and courage reappeared to her. Yeah, the thought life is undisturbed. It's not agitated. It doesn't ping all over the place, but it's focused because it can't help but be focused because it's drawn to the heavenly thing that's being presented before it.

00;56;57;04 - 00;57;16;19
Joshua Hoffert
actually, there's a story in this life of Mercury is the great where he where the devil comes to him and he goes through this test, actually. Oh, and and goes, I know that when, when a true heavenly vision appears, the thought life will be, agitated. It'll be caught up. Can't can't help but think about glorious things.

00;57;16;19 - 00;57;33;21
Joshua Hoffert
And right now, I'm not. So I know this isn't God because. Because the devil had come at it appearing as an angel of light. And so he goes to the test and then goes, this is this is Satan. so then he goes, so the thought lives undisturbed. The soul is illumined by what it beholds and desires to follow those things.

00;57;33;23 - 00;57;55;25
Joshua Hoffert
So, you know, again, think about what the examples that Marie gave, that they've brought people to a place of loving reverence for Jesus and inspired, you know, family, brotherly love for our savior. Yeah. there's a yearning for desire for divine things and for future good things. It reorients the hope.

00;57;55;28 - 00;57;56;29
Murray Dueck
Right? Brilliant.

00;57;57;01 - 00;58;18;20
Joshua Hoffert
Reorients the hope. Fear is replaced by love. You gave three different scriptures, four different scriptural examples of that. the Gabriel, the the myrrh bearing women, the angel with the shepherds. yeah. Or three different examples, I guess. so if there's fear, it's not the result of cowardice, but it's it is an awe of lofty and lofty beings.

00;58;18;20 - 00;58;40;26
Joshua Hoffert
Right? You said that, there's a recovery of spiritual strength. There's the desire to continue to press on. Amen. and there's a there's actually one of the other things he said. I didn't read this part of it because it's further on in the quote, but there's a the imperturbable, imperturbable bility. That's the English translation, which means calmness.

00;58;40;28 - 00;58;43;01
Joshua Hoffert
But that's. Yeah. So there's a calm.

00;58;43;01 - 00;58;45;03
Murray Dueck
You said that calmness. Yeah.

00;58;45;08 - 00;58;46;16
Joshua Hoffert
There's a calmness of.

00;58;46;16 - 00;58;48;14
Murray Dueck
Thoughts.

00;58;48;17 - 00;59;12;26
Joshua Hoffert
that comes over the person. Right. So Anthony lays this all out. This is what's going to characterize a true vision. This is the test. Right. And then he actually juxtaposes that with the characteristics of a false vision. so that you can tell the difference between the two. He goes on to say such a the character. a so such are the characteristic features of visions of the Saints, the stuff that we just talked about.

00;59;12;28 - 00;59;39;00
Joshua Hoffert
A completely different matter is the incursion of vicious and evil spirits, which is accompanied by terrifying banging, strange noises clamoring which were called the unruly movements of thieves or of undisciplined youths. All these discipline, all these produce fear, mental agitation, confusion, melancholic and downcast thoughts, hatred for esthetic practice, aversion for one, spiritual duties, sorrow, recollection of one's relatives and fear of death.

00;59;39;07 - 01;00;05;20
Joshua Hoffert
A desire for recollection of one's relatives. Because they're, they're they, you know. Anyway, that's a whole other topic. A desire for various evil acts, indifference of virtue, disorder of one's daily routine. so so he lays out all kinds of different things that are going to happen when it's just, when it's not on basically.

01;00;05;22 - 01;00;23;15
Murray Dueck
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's so important because every everybody listening, you got to think about it. Let's say, you have a fight with your spouse or your boss, or maybe you need to confront your pastor or something, right? Or maybe you need to tell your wife you're going to run out of money. Yeah. What? What's going on?

01;00;23;15 - 01;00;43;05
Murray Dueck
Are you and you just kind of slow the process down. Next time because you'll, as a human being, you'll be going to be. Oh, no, if we run out of money, then this is going to happen and this is going to happen. If I confront this person on this, I might lose my job. I might be. And and what happens is your picturing thing is being connected to negative.

01;00;43;06 - 01;00;44;25
Murray Dueck
Exactly. Just it just happens.

01;00;44;25 - 01;00;45;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yes.

01;00;45;13 - 01;00;48;23
Murray Dueck
And you'll realize you're basically almost prophesying over your self.

01;00;48;24 - 01;00;49;10
Joshua Hoffert
Fear.

01;00;49;10 - 01;00;51;16
Murray Dueck
Future that is demonic.

01;00;51;16 - 01;01;10;29
Joshua Hoffert
So I could go on because he talks about more things, but basically says that that kind of imagery because you don't realize how demonic that is, right? Because you've just partnered with the negative prophecy. But he says it'll produce fear, mental and mental agitation, confusion, and melancholic and downcast thoughts. Right? How many have ever been subject to that?

01;01;10;29 - 01;01;19;03
Joshua Hoffert
When you've started to think about how wrong things could go, this is where we don't understand the thought. Life and how intertwined with spiritual reality we are.

01;01;19;05 - 01;01;20;11
Murray Dueck
Yes, absolutely.

01;01;20;11 - 01;01;38;10
Joshua Hoffert
And so lastly, I'll say this. He goes on to say, to and again to his disciples and know this so that you might not be afraid when some fantastical image or vision appears before you. Do not let your morale drop from initial fear, but whatever kind of vision it may be, first ask with boldness, who are you?

01;01;38;13 - 01;02;06;08
Joshua Hoffert
Where are you, from whom the vision is divine and comes from holy beings your soul will receive. Mary said this your soul will receive inner assurance, and the latter will turn your fear into joy. If, on the other hand, the vision is demonic, it will fade away. Since the devil will see that your mind is courageous, it is a sign of imperturbable ity, you know, in calmness of thoughts, when someone boldly asks the vision who it is and from whence it comes.

01;02;06;11 - 01;02;27;12
Joshua Hoffert
Thus it was that Joshua immediately received an answer upon asking, and the devil did not escape the attention of David when the latter asked him who he was. So again, couching it in scripture, saying, let's look at how this happened in the Bible, and now let's understand how to apply this when these things happen to us. So you can see by what what Anthony lays out.

01;02;27;14 - 01;02;58;29
Joshua Hoffert
Right, that that the expectation. So because he says this so that you might need to pray. So you know that I just and answer and know this so that you might not be afraid when these visions appear before you do this. So his expectation, it's not a matter of whether or not you need to practice it. The idea is that when you are pursuing prayerful approach to God and prayer is not a because prayer has become, you know, the idea of prayer being a petition for God to do something on your behalf.

01;02;59;03 - 01;03;29;19
Joshua Hoffert
That's not the context for prayer within the within desert fathers or the contemplative literature. Prayer is the, the, the, the quietness, the calmness of entering into communion with God. When you're in that place, the stuff's going to happen. And so you need to be equipped to know what to do when it does. And so we're we're tracking from Scripture to patristic literature to and I know we've jumped over some ages, but we could show it in every age.

01;03;29;19 - 01;03;34;09
Joshua Hoffert
It's not a problem to show that, but we're just choosing some find to be quite helpful. Right.

01;03;34;09 - 01;03;47;17
Murray Dueck
It maybe a couple last thoughts on me on my part because I it's, it's interesting when you read the stories of the Desert Fathers in regards let's say picturing stepping in the vision, the you know, these things, how they flow together.

01;03;47;22 - 01;03;52;17
Joshua Hoffert
Macarius was a disciple of Anthony, by the way, so that's why he goes through the tests.

01;03;52;19 - 01;04;20;17
Murray Dueck
So, first off, I'll say, and again, this is one reason as far as Josh and I functioning in the prophetic ministry. And with that kind of, I hate to say, crowd, but aspect of the church, sure that we really like the Desert Fathers because some things really concern us. Yeah. In regards, how vision is used and, and again, I think everybody if you want to well how can I.

01;04;20;17 - 01;04;44;25
Murray Dueck
Because because different people are using scripture to back up what they see and and, and they're quoting, you know, revelation as, as they see it. Yeah. The book of revelation and or but I would suggest everyone how do you know how to use Scripture? Right. Test your vision with with the Beatitudes. Right. Use the Beatitudes. Does this produce humility?

01;04;44;25 - 01;05;08;20
Murray Dueck
Does it produce a poor in spirit? Does it produce right? I think that's important. Does produce you loving your enemies. If people are having vision, if all my enemies are going to be defeated and yeah, we're going to well, let's go to the Beatitudes, right? Right. Let's just, you know, I, I think that's important. And, and and maybe I'll say one last thing too, if you don't mind, because I know I know we're going to wrap it up here, but it's fun reading.

01;05;08;20 - 01;05;25;20
Murray Dueck
Ever get to know everyone? Yeah. The stories, the stories of the Desert Fathers and there's a couple in there that I find very fascinating in regards either the heart versus vision and they're interconnected. And there's this story in Josh, you'll probably remember it better than me of, this monk, you know, he lives in, you know, a ski.

01;05;25;20 - 01;05;41;13
Murray Dueck
You know, he's living in a cave somewhere, I think. And people would come out and visit these people. They're quite famous, you know, people wanted to see these holy people. And this young guy and young girl are both seeking this desert, father. And they both they don't know each other. I think they just show up at his cave at the same time.

01;05;41;15 - 01;05;56;22
Murray Dueck
I mean, it's the middle of nowhere. You can't just turn around and leave because it's in the desert. Yeah, you could die, right? So he decides to invite them both in. So at night, one sleeps on one side of him and the other sleeps on the other side, right? So he's. And they end up doing, you know, the on.

01;05;56;23 - 01;05;57;11
Joshua Hoffert
The deed.

01;05;57;18 - 01;06;20;13
Murray Dueck
Doing the deed. And, and I guess in the morning they feel feel horrible, horribly convicted. And they finally tell him, father, do you know what happened last night? And he goes, yes, I was awake the whole time. And he's like, oh, how did you put up with it? He goes, well, I stood before the cross the whole time looking at Jesus, and I wept.

01;06;20;16 - 01;06;21;11
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;06;21;14 - 01;06;26;06
Murray Dueck
It's like, yeah, that's what a way to take care of your mind, wandering into bad things.

01;06;26;06 - 01;06;26;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;06;26;26 - 01;06;51;04
Murray Dueck
That's. What do you do it. I'm just going to stay right here and look at the cross. Right? Right. And, and, and I remember one other Jesuit father in regards, the same thing. He was weeping, always weeping. And one of his disciples said, why do you weep all the time? Father? Well, I stand at the cross, and I look at Mary looking at Jesus.

01;06;51;05 - 01;06;52;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;06;52;07 - 01;06;57;12
Murray Dueck
And I want to weep over what happened to this son as as his mother wept.

01;06;57;15 - 01;06;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

01;06;58;26 - 01;07;13;28
Murray Dueck
You know, and just like I want to take not just I want to look at this scene in Scripture and I want to I want to have the feelings of it. I want to have the sense of it. I want to have. I want to be in it. I want to experience all of that in the Bible with all my senses.

01;07;13;28 - 01;07;18;07
Murray Dueck
Yeah. And that's the point of the Ignatius exercises right there.

01;07;18;11 - 01;07;27;08
Joshua Hoffert
So which we will. So what we'll do is we'll do a follow up episode and dive into the actual exercises. Yeah, the Ignatian one.

01;07;27;10 - 01;07;29;09
Murray Dueck
I mean, everybody, there's a lot more to talk about.

01;07;29;09 - 01;07;29;17
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

01;07;29;18 - 01;07;34;25
Murray Dueck
That's right. In regards, the how and the why and the where and the.

01;07;34;25 - 01;07;35;19
Joshua Hoffert
Way and, and.

01;07;35;22 - 01;08;01;27
Murray Dueck
You know, and to be honest, in my spiritual gift mix, being a real strong sense or feeler my journey into the Into the Desert Fathers, it's really been and contemplative prayer has really been the Jesus prayer. Right? That's that's my thing. If you want to say, well, how do you do it, I do it, I do this, I teach it, but it but it's my go to would be dreams and the Jesus prayer.

01;08;02;01 - 01;08;02;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

01;08;02;29 - 01;08;05;19
Murray Dueck
Which which is completely which we there's something.

01;08;05;19 - 01;08;16;12
Joshua Hoffert
We've talked about dreams before. We're definitely going to get to the Jesus Prayer at some point. But we've got to be able to do it justice, like probably basically in probably the next three years of.

01;08;16;15 - 01;08;17;09
Murray Dueck
Yes.

01;08;17;12 - 01;08;17;19
Joshua Hoffert
yeah.

01;08;17;22 - 01;08;18;13
Murray Dueck
We're not in a hurry.

01;08;18;20 - 01;08;24;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah. The voice is the voice from the desert is the Jesus Prayer. Yeah, yeah.

01;08;24;15 - 01;08;46;02
Murray Dueck
And so the reason I say that is, is, you know, think of it like a tool belt. You know, there is the examines in the tool belt now a little bit, likelihood to Venus in the tool belt, you know, sanctified imaginations in the tool belt. memorizing scripture, sitting with the Psalms, journaling, I mean, you know, modern worship and just soaking.

01;08;46;04 - 01;09;05;28
Murray Dueck
Yeah. I mean, how many ways do we want to interact with God? Every freaking way possible. But you might have a favorite. So if you're like, oh, I just don't get this. Don't worry about it. But you know what? Let your hunger to the for the Lord and to meet the bridegroom begin to activate parts of you you might have used before.

01;09;06;02 - 01;09;06;16
Joshua Hoffert
That's right, to.

01;09;06;16 - 01;09;09;27
Murray Dueck
Draw you in intimacy. So there you go. I finally got right there.

01;09;09;29 - 01;09;29;03
Joshua Hoffert
That was wonderful, Mary. Well, as always, mother, it's great to spend time with you and, with the audience. It's always great to hear back from you. Hey, if you're enjoying voices from the desert, let your friends know about us. Send them a link to one of your favorite episodes, and, and give us a review on whatever podcasting platform you have.

01;09;29;03 - 01;09;30;16
Murray Dueck
That would be wonderful. Thank you.

01;09;30;20 - 01;09;58;13
Joshua Hoffert
Shoot us a message on Facebook, Instagram or whatever. You know, if you're on. I actually did join Snapchat for the basketball team I'm doing a summer league with, and so maybe you can find me on Snapchat now. I have no idea how to use the app, and I refuse to learn. yes, yes. And so or you can send us an email and, there'll be links to each one of our respective web pages in the video description.

01;09;58;13 - 01;10;10;01
Joshua Hoffert
So, or in the podcast description. So thanks everybody for joining us on the ride. And we've got more coming down the pipe. And we look forward to seeing you guys next week.

01;10;10;04 - 01;10;10;23
Murray Dueck
Thanks, everyone.