Totalitarianism, Transhumanism, and the Evangelical Subculture: a look at Anthony the Great

Today on the podcast, we interview CR Wiley, an author, podcaster, and pastor. CR Wiley co-hosts The Theology Pugcast. CR Wiley is a reformed pastor who discovered great a value in Athanasius's Life of Anthony. Helping us discern trust and make sense of the world, this 1500 year old monk has a lot to say to modern Christians. Join Voices from the Desert as they dive in with CR and Anthony the Great!

For more about CR Wiley and to purchase the books he has written, visit: https://crwiley.com/

For more about Murray Dueck, visit: https://www.samuelsmantle.com/

For more about Joshua Hoffert, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/ 

Transcript

00;00;14;16 - 00;00;16;01
CR Wiley


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CR Wiley
Is, interaction with those who.

00;00;18;21 - 00;00;19;29
CR Wiley
Came out to see him?

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CR Wiley
That's, I think, something else that it.

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CR Wiley
Was that intrigued me. You know, we have a.

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CR Wiley
Contemporary kind of evangelical.

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CR Wiley
Subculture.

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CR Wiley
That is just so insecure and is always looking for ways to pretty itself up, you know, so that.

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CR Wiley
People who don't have an interesting spiritual situation, the church. So I liken it to, like, as a wallflower, you know, they she said to dance. She saw somebody, asked her friends and then, you know, they're so flattered with some.

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CR Wiley
Secular person pays attention.

00;00;49;11 - 00;00;58;22
CR Wiley
To real you.

00;00;58;24 - 00;01;29;12
Joshua Hoffert
Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of voices from the deserts. And you may recognize, if you're a longtime listener, that there is a almost like the sound of crickets after I said voices from the desert, because that's usually where my co-host chimes in and gives us a little wolf howl, as in or a coyote howl as in the, as in the desert.

00;01;29;14 - 00;02;03;23
Joshua Hoffert
And we don't have that today because, Murray is working on the farm today. So everybody it's just Josh and but it's not just Josh because we've welcomed a, a new friend on. We've got a guest on the podcast today, and we'll be diving into the, The life of Saint Anthony the Great. And so it's my great privilege today to welcome a, a fellow podcaster, a pastor, a man that I've just met in the last 5 or 10 minutes.

00;02;03;23 - 00;02;33;13
Joshua Hoffert
And but I've been following his podcast for the last few months after a, friend of mine turned me on to him and his, his podcasting, compatriots. And that is, it doc is a doctor. Technically, no, not there is no doctor there. See, our Wiley, of the theology podcast. And, so cr why don't you, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and, then we'll dive right in.

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CR Wiley
Yeah.

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CR Wiley
Glad to be with you. Joshua. And, I guess.

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CR Wiley


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CR Wiley
Just to let you know, you can call me Chris. okay.

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Joshua Hoffert
All right. Good. Yeah. That was a good price. That was my next question, I guess.

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CR Wiley
yeah.

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CR Wiley
The car is just intended to help people find me on the internet. Oh, yeah. It is.

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CR Wiley
Yeah. But anyway, Yeah, I'm a.

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CR Wiley
Pastor, as you noted. I am in the Pacific Northwest here.

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CR Wiley
I.

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CR Wiley
I'm married. I've been married for going on 40 years. I have three grown children and five granddaughters, and I've been involved in the pastoral ministry in New England. And here now, during those years, and, in the PCA, the Presbyterian Church in America, as you noted, I'm a podcaster. I have a show with two other guys.

00;03;21;06 - 00;03;41;26
CR Wiley
and that show is called the Theology Podcast. We got about 15 to 20,000 listeners around the world. and I've written a number of books, and I'm working on a number of books right now. And the subject of our conversation today is actually a, an authority that I'm going to draw on for a book. I'm working on totalitarianism.

00;03;42;02 - 00;03;43;08
CR Wiley
So my.

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CR Wiley
My, you know, appropriation of Anthony is entirely,

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CR Wiley


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CR Wiley
Kind of,

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CR Wiley


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CR Wiley
Utilitarian. It's not as though, some, authority on the Desert Fathers or anything.

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CR Wiley
but.

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CR Wiley
I'm happy to talk about them as much as I can. my, fellow podcaster, Glenn Sunshine is much more knowledgeable than I am. But I was drawn to Anthony, and he's proven to be very helpful. As I've been thinking about challenges I think we may be up against and already are up against in our time.

00;04;19;07 - 00;04;21;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Very good, very good.

00;04;21;08 - 00;04;26;12
CR Wiley
The, you totalitarianism.

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Joshua Hoffert
Let's just start there for a second. Right. Because I think you can easily draw the parallels between the concept in Anthony's day, obviously you have single ruler empires and, in, in Anthony in Anthony's day with the Roman Empire. Yeah. And even the one of the guys that comes right after Anthony Pachomius is notable for his service in the Emperor's army.

00;04;50;17 - 00;05;06;07
Joshua Hoffert
And then he comes out and he becomes a disciple of Anthony, very commonplace at that in that day and age. So what in terms of totalitarian totalitarianism, what's what's the the kind of the thrust of the book that you're working on in that sense?

00;05;06;09 - 00;05;07;02
CR Wiley
Well, I think.

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CR Wiley
Totalitarianism is a modern species of.

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CR Wiley


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CR Wiley
Government.

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CR Wiley


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CR Wiley
It does have, a resemblance to the authoritarianism you see in the Empire.

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CR Wiley
but.

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CR Wiley
I think, what makes, totalitarianism different is its, scientific methodology. and its thoroughness. So, you know, when we think about, say, Francis Bacon in the, in the statement that's attributed to him, knowledge is power. What kind of knowledge is, in view when people talk about that? Well, is it, you know, knowing yourself, like, you see, with the maxim and at Delphi or is it, you know, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and it's neither of those things.

00;05;55;08 - 00;05;58;04
CR Wiley
It's a it's a.

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CR Wiley
empirical and,

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CR Wiley
Physical, sort of subject. that is the.

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CR Wiley


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CR Wiley
Object of knowledge. So what you have is a, a form of knowledge which gives you power over the physical world. but actually costs you a great deal, because what you end up with is not just a knowledge about the world outside your head, but, you have a knowledge, that actually directly, helps you to examine and manipulate people.

00;06;34;29 - 00;06;52;22
CR Wiley
And that's what, you know, C.S. Lewis and many other critics of totalitarianism in the 20th century zeroed in on. So if you think about the abolition of man or, you know, something like, you know, his book, That Hideous Strength, or you think about Orwell in 1984 or Huxley.

00;06;52;29 - 00;06;53;17
CR Wiley
Wrote, you know, a.

00;06;53;17 - 00;07;09;08
CR Wiley
Brave New World. It's all if that's what they're getting at. There's something about the conditions of, of modernity that make it possible for us to actually aspire to having total control, not just, of the physical environment, but of people, because.

00;07;09;08 - 00;07;10;09
CR Wiley
People you.

00;07;10;09 - 00;07;12;21
CR Wiley
Probably noticed come with bodies.

00;07;12;23 - 00;07;14;05
CR Wiley
And if we if we can.

00;07;14;05 - 00;07;16;10
CR Wiley
Hack those bodies.

00;07;16;13 - 00;07;18;13
CR Wiley
then we have,

00;07;18;16 - 00;07;22;25
CR Wiley
The kind of control that someone like Caesar could only have dreamed of.

00;07;22;27 - 00;07;44;29
Joshua Hoffert
Sure, sure. And that's a, you know, a few, I guess if you chart the trajectory of Western civilization, you could see that on the, on the horizon. yeah. Yeah. So, and I didn't know you wrote a book. You wrote a book about Lewis. You had some, wasn't there?

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CR Wiley
Well, I I've written a lot about.

00;07;46;20 - 00;07;48;11
CR Wiley
Lewis in different settings, but.

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CR Wiley


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CR Wiley
I haven't done a full length book on Lewis. I did some something on Tolkiens character Bombadil.

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Joshua Hoffert
Tolkien. Okay.

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CR Wiley
Yeah. But I, I.

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CR Wiley
Think probably the thing I'm best known for in terms of my work, with Lewis is, is a piece I wrote for touchstone magazine years ago. By the way, I'm a senior editor at touchstone, so some of your listeners might be familiar with that magazine. But, it was about C.S. Lewis and H.P. Lovecraft and some of the interesting parallels, not just at a personal level in terms of their lives, but.

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CR Wiley


00;08;20;23 - 00;08;25;03
CR Wiley
Also with regard to their interests and their different understandings of the cosmos.

00;08;25;03 - 00;08;28;00
CR Wiley
But, you know, the.

00;08;28;03 - 00;08;37;11
CR Wiley
the materialist, conceit is that we can fully understand the world and deepen ourselves by just looking at the surfaces.

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CR Wiley
not, you know, we think.

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CR Wiley
About the word mystery, for example, Mysterion and the Greek is referring to something that's beneath the surface, that there's something there that's real. In fact, more real than what we see on the surface.

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CR Wiley
Right? You know.

00;08;51;00 - 00;09;02;02
CR Wiley
In the with the ancients, the surfaces were the were the things that were ever changing. They were they were the things in motion. You know, you see, the apostle Paul, you know, the things that are seen or temporal, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

00;09;02;08 - 00;09;03;20
CR Wiley
Right.

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CR Wiley
So there was an interest in, you know, the early church, and in the entire classical world with what's going on beneath the surface. And they were trying to get insight, literally see inside a little bit. And, and then when the mystery is something, it apprehends you. It's not just something you apprehend. So the modern conceit is that the services are sufficient and the goal is mastery, not self-mastery, but mastery of the physical world.

00;09;32;04 - 00;09;32;23
CR Wiley
Right.

00;09;32;25 - 00;09;38;22
CR Wiley
So a whole different trajectory. Now, there are many wonderful things that come out of it. Air conditioning, for example, they like. Yeah.

00;09;38;24 - 00;09;43;04
CR Wiley
I, you know, but, you know,

00;09;43;06 - 00;09;57;22
CR Wiley
You know, we've, we've paid a price. You know, I think, you know, the Lord's words about, you know, what is it? What is it profit you to gain the entire world, but, you know, at the cost of your own soul? I think that's what's happened in the modern world. That's what that's. That is modernity.

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Joshua Hoffert
Well, and you can see in, in the in a way kind of the tacit rejection today of modernity that's, that's happening, you know, younger generation. I like I, I play, I love playing basketball, for instance, anecdotal evidence. and I know almost all the guys that I've communicated with that are in my generation. I'm 43. We are we you start a Facebook group and you communicate via Facebook.

00;10;26;16 - 00;10;37;01
Joshua Hoffert
When's the upcoming games for your schedule? All that stuff? Well, I got placed in the summer league on a team with everyone on the teams under 18. I'm by far the oldest person on that.

00;10;37;01 - 00;10;37;23
CR Wiley
Team.

00;10;37;25 - 00;10;39;00
Joshua Hoffert
And it shows.

00;10;39;03 - 00;10;40;15
CR Wiley
So they.

00;10;40;15 - 00;10;41;13
Joshua Hoffert
Run circles.

00;10;41;13 - 00;10;43;04
CR Wiley
Around. Yeah, right.

00;10;43;06 - 00;11;03;21
Joshua Hoffert
but I had to install Snapchat in order to communicate with these young guys. None of them have Facebook. None of them are on a social media profile on that kind of in that sense, right? Yeah, yeah. And they're all just using a messenger app. And that was, you know, 20 years ago, it was all the rage to have your life blasted everywhere, right?

00;11;03;23 - 00;11;27;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Even just these, these high schoolers that are playing, doing life, playing basketball and going to high school, they're they've kind of walked away from this. So and it's not even a we want to be out of social media. We're rejecting the conglomeration of control and companies or anything. It's just it's a it's a whole nother generation raising up that doesn't necessarily care about that.

00;11;27;27 - 00;11;48;10
Joshua Hoffert
We actually we had on the podcast, just about a month ago, we had one of Murray's good friends who's an Orthodox priest in the, in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia. And he was saying his his church is full of young people, and almost all of them come from an agnostic background.

00;11;48;13 - 00;11;49;04
CR Wiley
You know.

00;11;49;06 - 00;12;03;17
Joshua Hoffert
They're they have no faith background, but they're looking for something more meaningful in life. And they can't. He sees his catechism classes are full. Is every Sunday. It's standing room only, which is, you know, in an Orthodox church, they don't really have pews anyway.

00;12;03;17 - 00;12;04;15
CR Wiley
So, yeah.

00;12;04;18 - 00;12;33;03
Joshua Hoffert
It's it's kind of standing room anyway. But but he said they're bursting at the seams because a number of people have no faith background, are looking for something more meaningful to connect with. And so you're kind of seeing this in the. Yeah, I think you guys mentioned it on the podcast with Anthony that there's there's even a whole group of, Western elites that are removing themselves and starting to practice ascetic disciplines because they realize that heightens the mind and strengthens the strengthens the thought process and all this.

00;12;33;03 - 00;12;53;27
Joshua Hoffert
It's like, well, that's kind of flying in the face of that totalitarian control. You see this, this, you know, almost the subterfuge of moderate culture is starting to address those kinds of challenges, which which also brings us to Anthony's retreat into the desert. And, again, not that you can draw parallels, not that the the amount of control.

00;12;53;27 - 00;13;06;24
Joshua Hoffert
I love how you said that, the amount of control that the Caesar of the day would have just dreamed of having that, a world leader can have today. And, you know, the the the fight is over. The thought.

00;13;06;26 - 00;13;07;05
CR Wiley
yeah.

00;13;07;06 - 00;13;31;23
CR Wiley
Yeah, that's the battle. I think the, you know, one of the things I think it's, in play is the body. Right? So one of the things we see with, say it with transhumanism, which is, I think the underappreciated threat. So I when I look about when I look at the, you know, the cultural scene, everybody is oriented toward the left and wokeism and there's certainly a lot to be worried about over there.

00;13;31;25 - 00;13;35;11
CR Wiley
but I think it's already kind of.

00;13;35;14 - 00;13;36;01
CR Wiley
I, it's.

00;13;36;02 - 00;13;41;13
CR Wiley
Sort of I describe, you know, sort of the, the woke phenomenon is,

00;13;41;15 - 00;13;45;11
CR Wiley
pumpkin ale. Yeah. And what I mean.

00;13;45;11 - 00;13;47;22
CR Wiley
By that is, is that it had its moment.

00;13;47;24 - 00;13;50;09
CR Wiley
Yeah. And then it.

00;13;50;12 - 00;13;51;08
Joshua Hoffert
Did have its moment.

00;13;51;08 - 00;13;59;18
CR Wiley
That's right. And everybody got sick of it at all at once. And it just was over. And there are a lot of kids who been, harmed.

00;13;59;18 - 00;14;17;16
CR Wiley
By that movement. And I think that we're going to see the same sort of thing I saw, because I grew up in the 60s and 70s. And there was a there was, about a 10 to 20 year span where people were kind of detoxing from the 60s and 70s. They got into other things that weren't necessarily worth getting into.

00;14;17;16 - 00;14;33;24
CR Wiley
But, there was a sense of what was I thinking? How did I how could I possibly believe that stuff? You know, all that kind of stuff, you know, in terms of acid trips and just all all the stuff that you got in free love and everything, and next thing you know, you got a bunch of people who were like, super straight laced and working on Wall Street, you know?

00;14;33;24 - 00;14;37;15
CR Wiley
And there they were. They were, you know, Woodstock, you know.

00;14;37;18 - 00;14;39;08
CR Wiley
That kind of stuff. So I think.

00;14;39;08 - 00;14;48;29
CR Wiley
That's what we're going to see. But unfortunately, the kind of damage that has been, you know, inflicted on those folks, I think is more indelible. Yeah.

00;14;48;29 - 00;14;52;10
CR Wiley
But anyway,

00;14;52;12 - 00;15;03;14
CR Wiley
You know, you just get to this point where there's this fad, but I think with the transhumanist movement, you know, because it's a more elitist kind of phenomenon and very much, in the spirit of Nietzsche.

00;15;03;17 - 00;15;05;14
CR Wiley


00;15;05;16 - 00;15;14;28
CR Wiley
I think it's going to, give us a better or more, guess, challenging.

00;15;15;00 - 00;15;15;26
CR Wiley


00;15;15;28 - 00;15;43;18
CR Wiley
Thing to resist because of its promises. what were some of the things that it's, aspiring to, to do can actually, appeal to that sort of, desire for mystery and wonder in a way that the Wokeism can't wokeism is all about, decent, championed, and, it's all about leveling things, and not, as you know, it's.

00;15;43;21 - 00;15;44;03
CR Wiley
You know.

00;15;44;08 - 00;15;50;29
CR Wiley
It's all about, you know, just sort of giving yourself over to your, your appetites and desires and. Right and sure, trying to legitimate them.

00;15;51;05 - 00;15;51;19
CR Wiley
But with.

00;15;51;19 - 00;16;08;06
CR Wiley
With, with the transhumanist movement, you you have a kind of, thing. I think you have what Lewis saw coming when he talked about the materialist magician. And is that as the magician side of it that I think is going to be really seductive.

00;16;08;09 - 00;16;13;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;16;13;07 - 00;16;16;08
CR Wiley
When?

00;16;16;10 - 00;16;23;23
Joshua Hoffert
I'm just trying to orient my thoughts. You know, there's there's just about 50 different threads that we could pull on.

00;16;23;26 - 00;16;24;13
CR Wiley
You where we would.

00;16;24;13 - 00;17;10;21
Joshua Hoffert
Go with that. you know, it's interesting because that in a way, the, wokeism has a direct connection with, you know, one of the main philosophical traditions that stood in the, stood against stoicism in the in the Greek tradition. Right. The Epicureans. Right. You can kind of see a similar thread there, but the and the early church had to deal with those kind of, you know, the, the moral non equivalency of the, of the Romans and the Greeks and, and you know Paul obviously, but was just thinking about this as you were talking about Paul anchoring, the, the righteousness of an individual in the person's body in Romans

00;17;10;21 - 00;17;36;06
Joshua Hoffert
seven and eight. And very much so, talking about transforming the kind of actions the body takes and, and even the early church firmly fighting against the, the denigration of, physical matter in the, in the incarnation. Right. Jesus's taking on of human flesh is the ringing endorsement that our human bodies are good and beautiful and wonderful.

00;17;36;08 - 00;17;37;01
CR Wiley
that, by the way, I.

00;17;37;01 - 00;17;53;08
CR Wiley
Think is something that we, we we should maybe talk a little bit about because I think, generally speaking, in reformed circles anyway. Yeah, one of the I think the misreadings of the Desert Fathers is they, they think of them as Gnostic. Yeah. Which is is kind of absurd when you look into it.

00;17;53;11 - 00;18;18;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. I think let's go there. that's that's a great point. And that there's, I mean, I remember when I first started reading, I mean, I came across the Desert Fathers in my probably my late 20s, and started diving in and reading more and more, starting with some of the Catholic mystics and then going further and further back, just, becoming more and more aware of church history.

00;18;18;04 - 00;18;33;14
Joshua Hoffert
I, you know, when I grew up, church history was, not necessarily a thing that was emphasized in the discipleship classes I would take or, or even preaching from the pulpit, no great preachers and all that, but church history, you know.

00;18;33;16 - 00;18;35;02
CR Wiley
Probably it was probably.

00;18;35;05 - 00;18;37;26
CR Wiley
What I'm guessing you got if you were an evangelical.

00;18;37;26 - 00;18;39;01
CR Wiley
Is that.

00;18;39;04 - 00;18;44;14
CR Wiley
you know, the early church and then the Reformation? Yeah, exactly. Worthwhile anywhere in between.

00;18;44;16 - 00;18;51;08
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Exactly. That's right. Yeah. And the early church kind of ended with, John the Beloved dying, you know, and then.

00;18;51;10 - 00;18;51;17
CR Wiley
It.

00;18;51;18 - 00;19;17;03
Joshua Hoffert
Said, then we pick up at Luther. Yeah. Right. You know, there's there's a dark history there. That's why it's called the Dark Ages. that was pretty much it. Yeah. That's right, that's right. And it was on my own exploring and, and coming around other people that were as well. but the, the kind of the first reading you get is, is this idea when you look at the rigid disciplines, the asceticism of the day, and that kind of stuff is that, man, these guys really didn't like the body.

00;19;17;05 - 00;19;19;27
Joshua Hoffert
And, but that's really not it.

00;19;19;29 - 00;19;21;15
CR Wiley
Yeah, it misses the point.

00;19;21;20 - 00;19;40;21
Joshua Hoffert
It does there actually, there is once there's one story that's always stood out to me in the Desert Fathers and it's two anonymous brothers go, after a period of sinning, they go into seclusion and one of them emerges and they're so they fast and all this stuff for a year, and they both emerge from their period of solitude.

00;19;40;21 - 00;19;58;09
Joshua Hoffert
And one of them, they're the guy's body is sickly and, you know, malnourished. And the other guy looks bright and full of health. Yeah, yeah. And they ask, well, what did you guys do? And the one guy says, I repented for my sins the whole time and the other, and I'm characterizing it, right. I'm shortening the story.

00;19;58;09 - 00;20;03;20
Joshua Hoffert
But the other guy says, I was thankful to God for saving me the whole time.

00;20;03;20 - 00;20;04;28
CR Wiley
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

00;20;04;29 - 00;20;18;11
Joshua Hoffert
And and the guy who was bright and full of life and vigor was thankful to God. The guy who's. And so they don't they're not commenting on whether one is better than the other. They just go. Both of them emerged victorious over, you know, the powers of the age that were influencing them.

00;20;18;13 - 00;20;18;28
CR Wiley
Well, yeah.

00;20;18;28 - 00;20;31;10
CR Wiley
And when I, as I read, you know, Athanasius account, that's the side that that's the thing that he observes about Anthony. Yeah. I was, full of vim and vigor to 105 years of age, you know?

00;20;31;10 - 00;20;34;17
CR Wiley
Yeah, yeah. And he looked great. Yeah. You know, and.

00;20;34;17 - 00;20;36;00
CR Wiley
That kind of stuff. Right?

00;20;36;02 - 00;20;56;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely. That's exactly right. There were people were stunned by his presence. Yeah. And and the fact that he when he emerges from his, his time in the fort, in the Roman fort, in solitude for 20 years or so with, you know, some random human interaction when they peep through the little hole and see Anthony there, there.

00;20;56;10 - 00;21;12;01
Joshua Hoffert
They're stunned by that. He doesn't look a day older than he then when he went in. Right. It really is. It's it really isn't a denigration of the human body. There's a there's really a, just a reverence for the physicality.

00;21;12;04 - 00;21;14;13
CR Wiley
Well, I think that's right.

00;21;14;13 - 00;21;16;29
CR Wiley
But I also think that there's a battle for the body.

00;21;16;29 - 00;21;20;08
CR Wiley
Yes, I think I think that's at the heart of it.

00;21;20;10 - 00;22;01;16
CR Wiley
So it's, you know, if you think about, say again, Paul in Romans 112, you know, present your bodies as a living sacrifice. Right? You know, there's this, I think underdeveloped, truth and I mean underdeveloped in certain church, traditions, that you can see in Paul particularly, but it's all through the New Testament that, you know, we need to be a fit, dwelling place, right where God's spirit, and, our bodies, need to honor the Lord, glorify the Lord, and so, you know, when Paul talks about, you know, I you know, I beat my body into submission.

00;22;01;18 - 00;22;03;15
CR Wiley
Like an athlete, right? You know, that's the.

00;22;03;15 - 00;22;03;29
CR Wiley
Thing is.

00;22;04;00 - 00;22;04;29
CR Wiley
Is, well, when we think.

00;22;04;29 - 00;22;09;24
CR Wiley
About being an athlete, an athlete of God, you know, that's really what we're talking about. We're talking about.

00;22;09;27 - 00;22;10;19
CR Wiley
not.

00;22;10;22 - 00;22;12;01
CR Wiley
We're not talking about.

00;22;12;03 - 00;22;13;02
CR Wiley


00;22;13;05 - 00;22;24;09
CR Wiley
Trying to escape the body. We're we're actually talking about a kind of transformation that actually is, I think a competitor or competitor competes with the transhumanist vision.

00;22;24;11 - 00;22;24;22
CR Wiley
Right.

00;22;24;24 - 00;22;32;16
CR Wiley
Because it's about it actually is about, developing and taking kind of things to another level in your life.

00;22;32;18 - 00;22;50;13
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And I, you know, and when in terms of Romans seven, I've always I was some I don't remember who it was, but someone help me see it anyway. Enrollment seven when Paul talks about the the law that is at war in my members, you know, the law of sin and death at warn my members that that there's a learned pattern of behavior my body's responding to.

00;22;50;13 - 00;23;19;28
Joshua Hoffert
And the more, the more we understand about the neurological makeup of the brain. And, all all of that, it's like, yeah, this is 2000 years ago. They're talking about this kind of stuff. And the practices of the Desert Fathers can be really helpful. So, so see, Chris, with all that said, what was your what was your introduction to, to Athanasius and Anthony then?

00;23;19;28 - 00;23;35;12
Joshua Hoffert
So let's give a little overview of who Anthony is, who Athanasius is, because we've mentioned both those names and and what drew you there, like, is there, is there a long story that got you to the point of who are these ancient, weird guys?

00;23;35;15 - 00;23;36;26
CR Wiley
Well, I, you know, I, I.

00;23;36;26 - 00;23;43;07
CR Wiley
Had a really good, theological education. And so part of that was a pretty, I think.

00;23;43;11 - 00;23;45;04
CR Wiley


00;23;45;06 - 00;23;45;22
CR Wiley
Good.

00;23;45;26 - 00;23;46;26
CR Wiley


00;23;46;28 - 00;24;10;06
CR Wiley
Introduction to church history. So these were, you know, familiar right? Names to me. and I knew, how significant Athanasius is in the history of the church. And I think anybody who has, you know, some acquaintance with the Nicene Creed and the story behind that would know this this guy was. And then when you when you read about him and you know, he's he's a remarkable guy.

00;24;10;06 - 00;24;15;24
CR Wiley
And then when you read him, you know, when you read, you know, on the incarnation somebody, you're like, man, this guy can write. I mean.

00;24;15;26 - 00;24;17;21
CR Wiley
You know, one of the things, yeah, one.

00;24;17;21 - 00;24;19;21
CR Wiley
Of the things I've noticed is that.

00;24;19;24 - 00;24;20;27
CR Wiley
Good.

00;24;21;00 - 00;24;23;02
CR Wiley
writing translates.

00;24;23;04 - 00;24;23;12
CR Wiley
Right.

00;24;23;12 - 00;24;45;14
CR Wiley
So, you know, you know, I, I, you, you come across. And by the way, this was something that Lewis gets at in his introduction, to the life of Anthony. And he says, you know, when he when he read them, he was like, this guy is first class. but one of the things that Lewis notes is both the simplicity and the profundity of his, of his writing.

00;24;45;16 - 00;24;47;06
CR Wiley
Right. And that's.

00;24;47;06 - 00;24;48;03
CR Wiley
Not easy to pull.

00;24;48;03 - 00;24;55;17
Joshua Hoffert
Off. No, that's very true. Yeah. Anybody that's tried writing those, it's not easy. It's easy to be wordy.

00;24;55;19 - 00;24;55;27
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;24;55;27 - 00;24;58;00
Joshua Hoffert
It's hard to be profound and simple.

00;24;58;02 - 00;25;00;08
CR Wiley
Yeah. And tight. He wrote tight.

00;25;00;08 - 00;25;14;03
CR Wiley
You know when you think about like a life of Anthony is not longer and the information is not long or gets the Gentiles not long and these are tight but they're, they're really and they're actually kind of a model for me. I write I try to write title, I write short books.

00;25;14;06 - 00;25;19;16
CR Wiley
Right. But, I think with, you know.

00;25;19;19 - 00;25;27;26
CR Wiley
Anthony, I think my first kind of, first sense that he had I really need to read this guy is when I read the confessions. You know Augustine.

00;25;27;29 - 00;25;28;10
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;25;28;10 - 00;25;42;18
CR Wiley
And, you know, you refers to how taken he was, when he read Athanasius, like, in depth. And he's, you know, he's he remarks in just think this guy is almost a contemporary, right.

00;25;42;18 - 00;25;46;20
CR Wiley
You know. Right. And, but you know.

00;25;46;20 - 00;26;11;02
CR Wiley
That in the association with Athanasius, to me are the great endorsement. You know, they're the, you know, if, if, if these great fathers of the church say you need to give some, you know, credence to Anthony and and note his significance, then, I mean, what more do you need? so that's what tipped me off.

00;26;11;02 - 00;26;13;00
CR Wiley
But then when I, when I got.

00;26;13;00 - 00;26;16;28
CR Wiley
Into my work in totalitarianism and.

00;26;16;28 - 00;26;18;04
CR Wiley


00;26;18;07 - 00;26;19;09
CR Wiley
Realized that, you.

00;26;19;09 - 00;26;21;12
CR Wiley
Know, we've, we've had a lot of.

00;26;21;12 - 00;26;25;20
CR Wiley
Good writing on totalitarianism, and I wasn't going to.

00;26;25;22 - 00;26;26;00
CR Wiley
Do.

00;26;26;00 - 00;26;38;15
CR Wiley
Much in the way of providing insight through my analysis of totalitarianism. You know, you have, you know, a rant and, you know, George Orwell and Eric Hoffer, I mean, all kinds of really great writers.

00;26;38;17 - 00;26;39;27
CR Wiley
And I thought, you know.

00;26;40;04 - 00;26;41;19
CR Wiley
What more can I say?

00;26;41;21 - 00;26;41;26
CR Wiley
and.

00;26;41;26 - 00;26;48;13
CR Wiley
Then we've had some recent, writing on resistance, you know, from people like Rod Dreher and, and one of the things they.

00;26;48;13 - 00;26;49;03
CR Wiley
All.

00;26;49;05 - 00;27;01;20
CR Wiley
Focus on is the importance of having a, you know, kind of a counterculture in a community. but the problem with that is, you know, you might find yourself like Solzhenitsyn in the gulag someday, and you're all by yourself now. What?

00;27;01;21 - 00;27;07;09
CR Wiley
Right, right, right. Yes. I thought about that. I said, let's just imagine.

00;27;07;09 - 00;27;09;16
CR Wiley
Worst case scenario.

00;27;09;19 - 00;27;10;03
CR Wiley
who do I.

00;27;10;03 - 00;27;13;00
CR Wiley
Turn to for some insight? And it just struck me.

00;27;13;00 - 00;27;15;21
CR Wiley
The Anthony. Right. You know,

00;27;15;23 - 00;27;29;19
CR Wiley
And so I, I read him for the first time. I read, you know, Athanasius, his life for the first time. And I was taken with a number of things. One is that, you know, my Protestant theological.

00;27;29;21 - 00;27;31;15
CR Wiley


00;27;31;18 - 00;27;35;09
CR Wiley
Kind of prejudices were all, undermined.

00;27;35;11 - 00;27;43;09
CR Wiley
Right? Yeah. But, you know, you know, I understand that. Yeah. As I'm reading this guy, I'm like, this doesn't look anything like.

00;27;43;09 - 00;27;44;08
CR Wiley
What Luther was talking.

00;27;44;08 - 00;27;51;18
CR Wiley
About or that kind of thing. And, and and didn't look anything like Gnosticism.

00;27;51;20 - 00;27;54;24
CR Wiley
and as you, as you read it, you realize. Okay.

00;27;54;26 - 00;27;56;21
CR Wiley
Okay.

00;27;56;23 - 00;28;13;07
CR Wiley
there are things that he's doing here and talking about here that are useful for everyone. You don't have to go into the desert to, to to, draw something from this that is really helpful and useful. So that's, that was how I got into it. And I've got a number of things I've observed that he's helpful with.

00;28;13;07 - 00;28;15;11
CR Wiley
I think particularly in.

00;28;15;15 - 00;28;16;02
CR Wiley


00;28;16;02 - 00;28;21;05
CR Wiley
You know, our time. So I'm happy to talk about those. but that's how I got into it.

00;28;21;08 - 00;28;37;22
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right. And actually, the, the there was a kind of a, common refrain that was repeated over a number of different desert fathers where they would say something like, A man can be a solitary in the city and a city dweller in the desert.

00;28;37;24 - 00;28;38;03
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;28;38;04 - 00;28;39;29
CR Wiley
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think that's right.

00;28;40;02 - 00;29;00;13
Joshua Hoffert
It's it's not somewhere. And, you know, there. I guess you guys have mentioned this on the podcast that the, the retreat to the desert wasn't this kind of romantic retreat to the desert. It really was a, a retreat to fight, which is where Anthony that's why he goes to the desert. You know, he's looking at Isaiah. there's jackals in the desert.

00;29;00;13 - 00;29;09;11
Joshua Hoffert
This is where the demons dwell. This is Jesus goes through the desert to fight with the devil. And this is this is all their inspiration, right? It's.

00;29;09;14 - 00;29;10;22
CR Wiley
Oh, yeah, that and it it's.

00;29;10;24 - 00;29;25;01
CR Wiley
As you noted, completely misread by modern people because we've been influenced by, you know, the romantic poets, you know, Wordsworth and, others and, and I think, you know, there's something to be said for the beauty of, of.

00;29;25;05 - 00;29;25;16
CR Wiley
Of.

00;29;25;21 - 00;29;38;08
CR Wiley
You know, you know, God's creation. I'm not denying that. And I don't think, you know, someone like Anthony would deny it. But I do think, that's a significant misreading. It's understood to be.

00;29;38;10 - 00;29;39;11
CR Wiley
A flight.

00;29;39;14 - 00;29;41;25
CR Wiley
From evil as opposed to.

00;29;41;25 - 00;29;43;07
CR Wiley
A Sally.

00;29;43;08 - 00;29;45;22
CR Wiley
ING out like a knight to fight.

00;29;45;22 - 00;29;46;20
CR Wiley
Evil.

00;29;46;22 - 00;29;51;24
CR Wiley
And that's what I see, you know? You know, you think of Anthony. I think he went up to pick fights.

00;29;51;26 - 00;29;52;13
CR Wiley
Yeah. You know.

00;29;52;13 - 00;29;55;29
CR Wiley
Why would you spend, you know, a night in a graveyard if you weren't looking for a.

00;29;55;29 - 00;30;02;08
CR Wiley
Fight? Yeah, yeah, you know, that kind of thing. So, you know, he he was a.

00;30;02;11 - 00;30;11;13
CR Wiley
He was a, a warrior of the spirit. And, you know, particularly when you read it, you know, his accounts of his encounters with the demonic, you can say, right.

00;30;11;14 - 00;30;13;14
CR Wiley
Wow. I mean, you know, now, now.

00;30;13;20 - 00;30;16;25
CR Wiley
As a modern person, you know, there's, I think.

00;30;16;26 - 00;30;18;19
CR Wiley


00;30;18;21 - 00;30;25;14
CR Wiley
A challenge when you read those accounts, to understand what what could this possibly mean? And.

00;30;25;14 - 00;30;26;28
CR Wiley
Right, and, you know.

00;30;27;01 - 00;30;28;20
CR Wiley
what was going on and that kind of stuff.

00;30;28;20 - 00;30;30;03
CR Wiley
But.

00;30;30;06 - 00;30;42;25
CR Wiley
I do think, you know, we can say without any equivocating that, the modern take, particularly modern evangelical isms, take on the Desert Fathers is, getting gets off on the wrong foot.

00;30;42;27 - 00;31;15;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Not it. Well, you know, I know, the the romantic plight of, it's really a reflection of our, the busyness of our lives and the activity that we find ourselves surrounded with. And so we we think of retreat as getting away as opposed to, actually, when I get away, I can start to see the kind of influences or as, as we'll talk about in a little bit the hook that's in me.

00;31;15;06 - 00;31;19;14
Joshua Hoffert
I can start to see it. What's influencing me? What's coming at me.

00;31;19;17 - 00;31;22;21
CR Wiley
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I do think,

00;31;22;23 - 00;31;26;05
CR Wiley
Stepping away from human society is certainly part of the picture.

00;31;26;09 - 00;31;26;26
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;31;26;28 - 00;31;31;23
CR Wiley
Because of the distractions and that kind of thing. But yeah. Yeah, I think that's right.

00;31;31;26 - 00;31;55;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. so and then for the record, Anthony, the great, 256 to 351, we're talking about third and fourth century for those that are interested in in that. And then Athanasius is, over playing over kind of the life of Anthony into the life of Augustine and was it was very influential to Augustine, Augustine as well.

00;31;55;22 - 00;32;11;27
Joshua Hoffert
and in fact, Anthony actually has there's one recounting of some, Arianism, Arianism that's coming to his desert or to his mountain, and he just tells his disciple to pull out Athanasius on the incarnation and start playing it.

00;32;12;00 - 00;32;13;09
CR Wiley
And especially, it.

00;32;13;09 - 00;32;19;22
Joshua Hoffert
Says, seeing them soundly, you know, defeated. They basically tucked their tails between their legs and ran off.

00;32;19;23 - 00;32;22;03
CR Wiley
Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's another thing. You know.

00;32;22;06 - 00;32;44;02
CR Wiley
His, interaction with those who came out to see him, that's, I think, something else that that intrigued me. You know, we have, a contemporary kind of evangelical subculture that is just so insecure and is always looking for ways to to pretty itself up, you know, so that people who don't have an interest in spiritual things might come to church, you know?

00;32;44;02 - 00;32;56;11
CR Wiley
So I liken it to like, the wallflower, you know, that, you know, she's at the dance and she's hoping that somebody asks her. Right. So. Right. And then, yeah, you know, there's so flattered when some secular person pays attention to them, right?

00;32;56;14 - 00;33;00;28
CR Wiley
Right, right, right. You have the exact opposite with that. Yeah. You know, the thing is, like, I'm I'm.

00;33;00;28 - 00;33;11;27
CR Wiley
Out of here. I'm going out to fight the demons. I want to get my body where it should be. And. And then next thing you know, he can't go far enough out into the desert, right?

00;33;11;29 - 00;33;12;24
CR Wiley
People just keep.

00;33;12;24 - 00;33;24;26
CR Wiley
Coming to him, you know? Yes. Greek philosophers who pay visits. you know, we've got these heretics. We've got people who are coming out for for him to pray for them. And and he's he's shouting, go away.

00;33;24;26 - 00;33;28;29
CR Wiley
I don't have any power to heal you. Yeah. That's right. And then he.

00;33;28;29 - 00;33;29;18
CR Wiley
Prays for them.

00;33;29;18 - 00;33;36;19
CR Wiley
And they get healed. And he's having to remind them, it's not me. You of. And, and then.

00;33;36;19 - 00;33;41;02
CR Wiley
You know, he gets a letter from the emperor and he's like, you know, do we want to respond? He's.

00;33;41;06 - 00;33;47;12
CR Wiley
Yeah. Yeah, I know the guy, you know? So, so, you know, but that was.

00;33;47;12 - 00;33;55;29
CR Wiley
Also, really striking to me that, he captured the imagination of the people of his his own time even.

00;33;56;01 - 00;33;58;00
CR Wiley
Right.

00;33;58;03 - 00;34;04;00
CR Wiley
And they just wanted to understand what he was up to. what was it about this guy.

00;34;04;03 - 00;34;04;29
CR Wiley
I'd like to look into.

00;34;04;29 - 00;34;23;04
CR Wiley
A little more about, you know, how it went during the the persecutions under Diocletian. He comes out of the desert. And why no one seems to touch him. I think it is just his reputation as a as a man of God just made him almost, radioactive. You know, it was so true. I don't want to get on the wrong side of that guy or something.

00;34;23;04 - 00;34;24;10
CR Wiley
Right. And and so I guess what?

00;34;24;10 - 00;34;26;23
CR Wiley
I'm guessing I don't know enough about it.

00;34;26;25 - 00;34;40;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, I, I would guess I would guess the same. His reputation. It says. I think it's in the life of Anthony that this is when he comes out of his, his 20 years in the fort, that he's, he was known as spirit born.

00;34;40;11 - 00;34;40;23
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;34;40;29 - 00;34;49;01
Joshua Hoffert
Everywhere he goes, the Holy Spirit has taking him there. It's all you almost get this idea. He's kind of like this ethereal figure that floats around.

00;34;49;01 - 00;34;50;25
CR Wiley
And, but, I mean.

00;34;50;25 - 00;34;55;24
Joshua Hoffert
The things that happen when people come to talk to him and he knows what their question questions going to be.

00;34;55;26 - 00;34;56;05
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;34;56;09 - 00;35;04;14
Joshua Hoffert
Or he knows the he knows their name before they walk up to him. And it's like this, this kind of supernatural moments that just stunned people. Oh, God. Yeah.

00;35;04;15 - 00;35;06;01
CR Wiley
Yes. And then, you know.

00;35;06;01 - 00;35;07;01
CR Wiley
He's also very.

00;35;07;01 - 00;35;07;17
CR Wiley


00;35;07;17 - 00;35;15;00
CR Wiley
Actually, so he wasn't a misanthrope. he was concerned with people's physical welfare.

00;35;15;00 - 00;35;15;18
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;35;15;21 - 00;35;20;28
CR Wiley
You know, he plants a garden, not for himself, but for the people who come to visit him.

00;35;21;01 - 00;35;22;03
CR Wiley
Right. So he has something.

00;35;22;03 - 00;35;23;11
CR Wiley
To give them, you know, things like.

00;35;23;11 - 00;35;24;09
CR Wiley
That.

00;35;24;12 - 00;35;46;04
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and in an incredibly, you know, kind of the, the idea that we would read someone like Anthony, we get these, these, hard, exacting, caustic figures for a long time. Actually, I read Paul that way as well. And, and in the last couple of years, I've started to note the tenderness that Paul talks about his friends with and the churches that he's been around.

00;35;46;04 - 00;35;59;17
Joshua Hoffert
And he's, you know, one of my favorite, figures in the Bible has become I think it's, now I can't think of his name at epic. It's not Epictetus, because that's a Greek philosopher. Epiphany.

00;35;59;17 - 00;36;02;07
CR Wiley
Epictetus. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;36;02;09 - 00;36;06;19
Joshua Hoffert
and he just says, my beloved Greek, my beloved epiphanies.

00;36;06;21 - 00;36;07;16
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;36;07;19 - 00;36;35;07
Joshua Hoffert
and that's like, that's really affectionate language that I, I think, you know, Paul, this hard, kind of austere man. And when you see Anthony, when I first started studying the life of Anthony and looking at there's, there's a story where, a guy who is found in sin gets kicked out of a monastery, and, he comes to Anthony for restoration because they won't they won't accept him back.

00;36;35;09 - 00;36;48;25
Joshua Hoffert
And, Anthony writes a letter on his behalf talking about how a ship has been shipwrecked on my shore and no one cares about the cargo. Right. And he's writing about this guy, and they. There's so much deep.

00;36;48;27 - 00;36;49;06
CR Wiley
yeah.

00;36;49;09 - 00;36;56;12
Joshua Hoffert
Tenderness and affection that he has that they while at at the word of Anthony, they welcome them back into the community and restore the fallen brother.

00;36;56;15 - 00;36;57;14
CR Wiley
Yeah. That's great.

00;36;57;16 - 00;36;58;12
CR Wiley
I didn't know that story.

00;36;58;16 - 00;37;25;08
Joshua Hoffert
It's it's and there's a, there's, a number of stories like that in the Desert Fathers because he really sets the stage for what the practice looks like. You've got, Moses. So, Moses, the Ethiopian, going to his. He's called to a a, you know, adjudicate over the sins of a brother in a community dispute. And he, he puts a bag of sand on his back with holes in it.

00;37;25;11 - 00;37;57;13
Joshua Hoffert
And as he walks, all the sand trails out behind him. And when he gets there, there's basically nothing left in the bag. And they go, well, that was a waste. Why did you do that? And it says, my sins like sand are laid out behind me, and I'm here to judge the sins of my brother. And they all just kind of look down sheepishly at their feet and go, okay, but this kind of stuff is like, oh, well, these austere, hard people actually were very tender and affectionate and had a real sense of the the grace and forgiveness and mercy of the Lord.

00;37;57;15 - 00;37;57;24
CR Wiley
Oh yeah.

00;37;57;24 - 00;38;12;06
CR Wiley
That was I think that's another thing that maybe a Protestant should be, brought up to speed on. So, like when we think about as particularly reformed people, but just generally speaking, in kind of broad evangelical church.

00;38;12;13 - 00;38;12;21
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;38;12;21 - 00;38;13;13
CR Wiley
You know.

00;38;13;16 - 00;38;14;15
CR Wiley
We we read.

00;38;14;15 - 00;38;19;29
CR Wiley
Anthony through the lens of Luther's experience, right, with, you know, late medieval monasticism.

00;38;20;06 - 00;38;20;13
CR Wiley
Which.

00;38;20;13 - 00;38;21;19
Joshua Hoffert
Was totally different.

00;38;21;21 - 00;38;22;26
CR Wiley
Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

00;38;22;28 - 00;38;23;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;38;23;19 - 00;38;34;19
CR Wiley
So, you know, there's nothing, that even smacks or smells of self-righteousness or, or, you know, trying to earn your salvation in, in, in Anthony.

00;38;34;21 - 00;38;35;15
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;38;35;18 - 00;38;45;01
CR Wiley
and you know what, as you know, when you read, you know, the life of Anthony, the scripture everywhere, you know, and it's not even like.

00;38;45;03 - 00;38;46;06
CR Wiley
going from.

00;38;46;08 - 00;38;51;24
CR Wiley
You know, apocryphal sources that that maybe a typical Protestant would sneeze at, you know.

00;38;51;27 - 00;38;54;09
CR Wiley
Right, right. It's it's just.

00;38;54;09 - 00;38;57;03
CR Wiley
The in fact, these are all familiar scriptures.

00;38;57;08 - 00;38;59;07
CR Wiley
Yeah. That that any well.

00;38;59;10 - 00;39;03;23
CR Wiley
Read, you know, Protestants should be familiar with that are being drawn on and.

00;39;03;23 - 00;39;05;05
CR Wiley
Reflected on and there's.

00;39;05;08 - 00;39;07;08
CR Wiley
And there's nothing, nothing to it.

00;39;07;08 - 00;39;07;25
CR Wiley
That, you.

00;39;07;25 - 00;39;12;14
CR Wiley
Know, and there's this strong stress on the victory of Christ through the resurrection.

00;39;12;14 - 00;39;15;25
CR Wiley
Yeah. That's right. Know, that's,

00;39;15;27 - 00;39;37;03
CR Wiley
The kind of the touchstone for Anthony, in all of his thinking and particularly as he's thinking about the, the demonic. And that's another thing that drew me to this, to the story, was that I knew, of course, that he was fighting demons. And I thought, well, that would be really helpful to, to to look into as I'm thinking about.

00;39;37;05 - 00;39;37;16
CR Wiley


00;39;37;16 - 00;39;38;12
CR Wiley
The spirits of our.

00;39;38;12 - 00;39;40;03
CR Wiley
Age.

00;39;40;05 - 00;39;57;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. So let's let's start let's talk about that a little bit that you, you made a comment in, on the theology podcast about, and I've reference that the hook that's in us and that Anthony was concerned about the hook. So, what do you mean by that?

00;39;57;04 - 00;39;57;11
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;39;57;11 - 00;40;02;06
CR Wiley
Well, it's basically, you know, the, the ongoing struggle that we have with sin.

00;40;02;08 - 00;40;03;02
CR Wiley


00;40;03;05 - 00;40;10;18
CR Wiley
So that, you know, even the apostle Paul, would say I have not arrived, you know, I have not attained.

00;40;10;18 - 00;40;13;14
CR Wiley
To he wrote, you know, so,

00;40;13;17 - 00;40;31;05
CR Wiley
What I'm aspiring to and so there is this, this hook, the world of flesh and the devil. The flesh is the hook. So the flesh, you know, is not a, synonym for the body. It's it's addressing something that is something that we have to deal with that has.

00;40;31;08 - 00;40;31;19
CR Wiley


00;40;31;19 - 00;40;59;06
CR Wiley
A lot to do with our bodies, but it's. But it's, sin in me, you know? So, you know, this, body of death, right? Paul talks about, you know, anyway, so that's so disciplining myself to to, be, you know, freed from the hook. I think, is, at least in part, what the asceticism is addressing. so that when the temptation comes, you know, he's he's you've got something.

00;40;59;09 - 00;41;00;12
CR Wiley
that you've got.

00;41;00;12 - 00;41;09;24
CR Wiley
Some basis, or some hope of being able to resist the temptation because you've been working so hard to, to to prepare for the.

00;41;09;24 - 00;41;11;15
CR Wiley
Temptation. Right. Again. Right.

00;41;11;15 - 00;41;11;26
CR Wiley
My drift.

00;41;12;01 - 00;41;14;12
CR Wiley
Right. So,

00;41;14;14 - 00;41;27;08
CR Wiley
That that's, a significant thing. But the other thing is just the reality of the spirits that, you know, when you read Anthony is is not like,

00;41;27;11 - 00;41;28;06
CR Wiley
he's not he's not.

00;41;28;06 - 00;41;29;29
CR Wiley
Merely talking about.

00;41;30;01 - 00;41;30;06
CR Wiley
a.

00;41;30;06 - 00;41;56;06
CR Wiley
Psychological state, you know, he's talking about really, you know, real spirits and have, you know, an objective character that he's, he's wrestling with these resisting and, and so for, for my, you know, as I was thinking about the situation in which we face today, I do think that the body is in play, particularly with the transhumanist, program, the Internet of Things and that kind of stuff.

00;41;56;07 - 00;41;56;12
CR Wiley
Right?

00;41;56;14 - 00;41;57;02
CR Wiley
I think, right.

00;41;57;03 - 00;42;01;17
CR Wiley
I think they want to colonize us in the same way that they want to colonize our toasters and refrigerators.

00;42;01;17 - 00;42;04;00
CR Wiley
Sure. sure. And they actually.

00;42;04;03 - 00;42;07;10
CR Wiley
Are looking to find ways to implant hardware in us.

00;42;07;10 - 00;42;08;26
CR Wiley
So if you read in, if.

00;42;08;26 - 00;42;12;23
CR Wiley
You read the transhumanists, you can see all this stuff and then you're like.

00;42;12;26 - 00;42;15;15
CR Wiley
Okay,

00;42;15;18 - 00;42;26;29
CR Wiley
Isn't this, eerily similar to a kind of possession, that we're talking about here? And how do you resist that? so that's what prompted my interest, particularly in this matter.

00;42;27;03 - 00;42;27;20
CR Wiley
And then.

00;42;27;21 - 00;42;29;01
CR Wiley
You know, Anthony's.

00;42;29;03 - 00;42;30;04
CR Wiley


00;42;30;06 - 00;42;40;14
CR Wiley
Strong conviction that that the demonic forces have been, the dethroned, they're powerless, but they can still lie. And so that's the thing.

00;42;40;16 - 00;42;41;09
CR Wiley
You got to have.

00;42;41;09 - 00;43;05;06
CR Wiley
An ability to discern the lie. And he demonstrates that, you know, in his his stories, he says, you know, this was the lie in this case, this was a lie in that case. And then when he identifies a lie, he mocks the spirits, right? He's got this kind of, dismissive attitude toward them. And then they flee, because, you know, the deception doesn't work.

00;43;05;08 - 00;43;07;00
CR Wiley
And in my mind, that's.

00;43;07;00 - 00;43;21;14
CR Wiley
That's the kind of thing that that a that spirit of discernment is what we need. Because I think, like, you know, when we think about, say, ideologies and, you know, social movements like the LGBTQ kind of stuff.

00;43;21;17 - 00;43;22;18
CR Wiley
To me.

00;43;22;20 - 00;43;32;10
CR Wiley
you've got a kind of spiritual character, that you need to be able to discern if you're going to successfully resist.

00;43;32;12 - 00;43;32;22
CR Wiley


00;43;32;22 - 00;43;36;16
CR Wiley
The incursions of the thinking and even the spirit of these things.

00;43;36;22 - 00;43;37;02
CR Wiley
Right.

00;43;37;08 - 00;43;48;27
CR Wiley
So and I'm happy to reflect on some of this, I'm still sort of early in my, my own thinking in terms of my developing, you know, thoughts on, on this stuff.

00;43;48;29 - 00;43;50;09
CR Wiley
But,

00;43;50;12 - 00;43;56;22
CR Wiley
But that's what inspired me to, to it was big part of it. Why why I looked at me for insight.

00;43;56;24 - 00;44;22;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Well, I guess, just because you can't see them, you know, the, the, the influences and the quote unquote spiritual demonic influences. And in the life of Anthony, they are they are directly pictured. But the the way they're directly pictured two is, you know, there's, there's stories of gold being laid on the ground to provoke Anthony to greed, right?

00;44;22;11 - 00;44;22;28
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;44;23;01 - 00;44;51;17
Joshua Hoffert
there's stories of, women coming to him by the cover of night that are actually demonic figures to steer him to lust. And, so the all the same. Yeah. Kind of, flesh inclinations that that Paul talks about, we're fighting with. Right. The body. Yeah. That that we're fighting with and, Yeah. And he and they're pictured in the life of Anthony as physical realities in the sense of demonic apparitions.

00;44;51;20 - 00;45;24;11
Joshua Hoffert
So just because we don't see them, doesn't mean that they're not. They're the same kind of, forces that would assail us the same way they assail Anthony, the same way they assail us. I think you could say that. yeah. And they come in the form of, individual temptations. They come in the form of ideological temptations, and then they're filtered into that particular, whether it's the framework of transhumanism, the woke agenda, LGBTQ agenda, whatever it happens to be.

00;45;24;18 - 00;45;32;03
Joshua Hoffert
There's a there's a there is always temptation associated with it power, influence, sex, money.

00;45;32;05 - 00;45;32;14
CR Wiley
And.

00;45;32;18 - 00;45;34;02
Joshua Hoffert
These kind of things.

00;45;34;05 - 00;45;37;00
CR Wiley
Right. yeah. Yeah.

00;45;37;03 - 00;45;55;17
CR Wiley
So, you know, one of the thoughts I had is, and I actually wrote an opening to a short story, so I writes for fiction and it wrote an opening to a short story, in which I. And I'm, I'm playing with the idea that neural implants, which, according to transhumanists, would actually be hardwired into our neocortex.

00;45;55;17 - 00;45;55;24
CR Wiley
And.

00;45;55;24 - 00;46;05;04
Joshua Hoffert
They're, they're getting there. Right. They've had the first, that Elon Musk had, the first one thrown into someone's brain and they could play Tetris with it, I think was the.

00;46;05;06 - 00;46;05;26
CR Wiley
Yeah,

00;46;05;29 - 00;46;07;09
Joshua Hoffert
Outworking of it. So.

00;46;07;11 - 00;46;50;17
CR Wiley
Yeah. So let's, let's imagine a future in which that's the case and we are part of now this internet of things. and you hear so what I, what I played with in terms of my, my story is the idea that you could have competing AIS all looking for a kind of, network, sort of, sort of, a network, kind of, developing a sort of, expanse, you know, in other words, in which you in which a particular I would grow in power in relationship to other AI with more devotees and that you end up with an actual recovery of, idolatry in the old fashioned sense.

00;46;50;17 - 00;46;59;18
CR Wiley
You know, today when we talk about idolatry, essentially we think of it in the same way that, you know, we think of, you know, covetousness being idolatry as possible.

00;46;59;18 - 00;47;01;23
CR Wiley
Right? Right.

00;47;01;25 - 00;47;04;00
CR Wiley
Not really physical objects.

00;47;04;02 - 00;47;06;05
CR Wiley
But if this.

00;47;06;07 - 00;47;09;10
CR Wiley
Sort of idea, I have the sort of this story I'm working with.

00;47;09;12 - 00;47;09;20
CR Wiley
You.

00;47;09;20 - 00;47;12;10
CR Wiley
You'd actually have physical objects again.

00;47;12;12 - 00;47;13;24
CR Wiley
Right? That you're praying.

00;47;13;24 - 00;47;14;12
CR Wiley
To.

00;47;14;14 - 00;47;16;27
CR Wiley
Right, that are actually speaking to you.

00;47;16;29 - 00;47;38;15
CR Wiley
and promising things to you in exchange for your devotion and your, you know, subjecting yourself to their will now, whether or not there's some, conscious entity behind it, it doesn't really matter. The Turing test is essentially if it smells like a duck and walks like a duck and acts like a duck, it's a.

00;47;38;15 - 00;47;40;17
CR Wiley
Duck, right? Right. So consciousness is.

00;47;40;17 - 00;47;44;06
CR Wiley
There. you, according to the Turing test, whether it's actually there or not.

00;47;44;12 - 00;47;45;23
CR Wiley
Yeah, but you but we're being.

00;47;45;23 - 00;47;53;20
CR Wiley
Trained right now through Alexa and Siri and all this kind of stuff to actually relate. in a very human way to machines.

00;47;53;22 - 00;47;53;28
CR Wiley
Right.

00;47;53;28 - 00;48;05;11
CR Wiley
And so, what happens when people believe that they're actually dealing with conscious, entities, right? You and and who are very powerful.

00;48;05;13 - 00;48;05;27
CR Wiley
You end up.

00;48;05;27 - 00;48;07;20
CR Wiley
With a situation where you have a kind of.

00;48;07;20 - 00;48;09;11
CR Wiley
Neo,

00;48;09;14 - 00;48;10;29
CR Wiley
Idolatry.

00;48;11;01 - 00;48;21;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And it's actually. And I, you know, just, And you sure you don't have, like, four more hours to talk?

00;48;21;23 - 00;48;22;18
CR Wiley
the.

00;48;22;20 - 00;48;53;26
Joshua Hoffert
I'm thinking about some of the, extrapolating from some of the teachings of the Desert Fathers. there's one there's a number of different ones. This refrain is summed up, I guess, and, the story from Zosimus, who's kind of a maybe fourth in to the early fifth century. and he's talking about how basically you it's easy to impute meaning into a nail and then be frustrated when you're deprived the possession of that nail.

00;48;53;26 - 00;49;20;07
Joshua Hoffert
He's like, it's like anything. It's like you're arguing over the possession of a nail, and the nail becomes the idol, and you impute meaning to it, and you give it value and worth and and so when it comes to the, the, the that spiritual discernment, the discretion, it's not so much figuring out what's true or false, but it's, it is what's figuring out what's true or false.

00;49;20;07 - 00;49;39;10
Joshua Hoffert
It's it is. And I want you to I want to know what you think about this with in terms of Anthony, but it's being able to properly ascertain the nature of reality as you see it and, and looking at, you know, like the example of the eye and being able to look at it and go, this is what this actually is.

00;49;39;12 - 00;49;48;07
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah. It's it because it, you know, is it fake, is it false. Well, yes. But it's very real to the person who's looking at it. Right. Yeah.

00;49;48;08 - 00;49;49;26
CR Wiley
And, and it can even be powerful.

00;49;49;26 - 00;50;16;20
CR Wiley
So like in the case of, say, I saw in the story, the seduction that occurs with the character, he's actually a devotee of one, you know, eye and there's another eye that's, more powerful that seduces him and draws him away. But other devotees in this eyes, Dominion or network, can be influenced. And so.

00;50;16;22 - 00;50;16;29
CR Wiley
This.

00;50;16;29 - 00;50;30;03
CR Wiley
Particular character has a romantic interest in a woman who is a devotee of this other eye. And this and this other eye is essentially, you know, says, I've got the love potion. I can make her love you. Right.

00;50;30;06 - 00;50;30;18
CR Wiley
if you.

00;50;30;18 - 00;50;31;04
CR Wiley
Will serve.

00;50;31;04 - 00;50;33;24
CR Wiley
Me right. And she does.

00;50;33;26 - 00;50;37;11
CR Wiley
that's the kind of thing that I think we're on the cusp of.

00;50;37;11 - 00;50;38;22
CR Wiley
If.

00;50;38;25 - 00;50;40;16
CR Wiley
they can pull off the technology.

00;50;40;22 - 00;50;41;09
CR Wiley
Right.

00;50;41;11 - 00;50;43;06
CR Wiley
But if that's the case.

00;50;43;09 - 00;50;43;21
CR Wiley


00;50;43;21 - 00;51;03;13
CR Wiley
What we're dealing with is, real social power and, at a level that really brings back the kind of devotion that I think that people. So I think that, I think our big challenge will be if if the technology plays out the way they say it will.

00;51;03;16 - 00;51;04;16
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;51;04;18 - 00;51;07;29
CR Wiley
And that's a big if. I'm not sure I have. No, no I'm not.

00;51;07;29 - 00;51;14;08
Joshua Hoffert
Well, there's people that want to push it that direction. So regardless of whether it does that, that ideology is there.

00;51;14;10 - 00;51;14;19
CR Wiley
Yeah.

00;51;14;19 - 00;51;28;05
CR Wiley
And that's the point. What you have is an ideology, which is I think, a genuine threat, at a spiritual level, because it's, it's something that a lot of people want to see happen.

00;51;28;12 - 00;51;29;23
CR Wiley
So, you know, one of the.

00;51;29;23 - 00;51;41;29
CR Wiley
Things that kind of is annoying when when I talk to people about AI and transhumanism is, you know, they'll roll their eyes and they'll say, it'll never work. And my, my point to them is it doesn't matter if it doesn't work right.

00;51;41;29 - 00;51;42;27
Joshua Hoffert
People want it already.

00;51;43;02 - 00;51;45;16
CR Wiley
They want it. Yeah. That's what we're up against.

00;51;45;16 - 00;52;16;05
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah that's right, that's right. There's a there's a, a particular term that's used, throughout the Desert Fathers. it was really the early church literature. And, you know, some of the later Orthodox guys pick up on it, and they don't they won't necessarily translate it from, Greek into English the way that, you know, say, in Benedict Award's translation of The Sayings of the Desert Fathers will translated as thoughts.

00;52;16;07 - 00;52;19;29
Joshua Hoffert
But the Greek word is a little gizmo boy. I think that's how you say it anyway.

00;52;20;00 - 00;52;22;01
CR Wiley
Yeah, right. I'm familiar with,

00;52;22;04 - 00;52;47;15
Joshua Hoffert
the idea that you find it often carries in the Desert Fathers is, this kind of spiritual weight to the thought, not just the thought itself, but there's actually an influence in a way, attached to the thought. And. And so then, you know, they'll talk about that. There's demonic activity. They call it a they'll call a spirit of acid, right.

00;52;47;15 - 00;53;25;10
Joshua Hoffert
Which is despondency or disorder. Yeah. Kind of a lethargy. in the idea. Yeah. It's it's yeah. That that is it has a spiritual, you know, spiritual movement in it. And so Anthony actually talks a lot about telling telling the difference. He actually in one of his letters to his disciples, he goes through and lays out, about 10 to 15 qualitative tests for what you can tell would be a true vision from God and what would be a true vision or a false vision from a demonic entity.

00;53;25;15 - 00;53;26;20
Joshua Hoffert
How can you tell the difference?

00;53;26;26 - 00;53;27;16
CR Wiley
So that's.

00;53;27;18 - 00;53;28;14
CR Wiley
It's that's in the Desert.

00;53;28;14 - 00;53;48;16
Joshua Hoffert
Fathers. That's in the Desert Fathers. That's Anthony's letters to his disciples. And then you can find examples in, say, Macarius, who's wandering along and sees the devil. And, you know, some of this stuff may be apocryphal. Sure. but in the in terms of the tradition, you can see them practicing the things he said. Well, okay, this is I know that a true vision supposed to be like this and this, this one's not like that.

00;53;48;16 - 00;53;58;23
Joshua Hoffert
And and he's obviously pulling back to what Anthony. So Anthony's in interested in teaching them to figure out what's real and what's not right.

00;53;58;29 - 00;53;59;28
CR Wiley
And one of the.

00;53;59;28 - 00;54;03;29
CR Wiley
Problems with modernity is that, because it's taken the and it's.

00;54;03;29 - 00;54;07;13
Joshua Hoffert
Weird. It's weird. So it's we need to throw it all out.

00;54;07;15 - 00;54;09;03
CR Wiley
Well that that but the, the.

00;54;09;03 - 00;54;18;12
CR Wiley
Empirical as kind of the baseline for what is real is, is kind of nonsensical in antiquity. But we don't even know how consciousness works.

00;54;18;13 - 00;54;19;24
CR Wiley
Right. So if you if you.

00;54;19;28 - 00;54;34;02
CR Wiley
Look into some of the philosophy, that, is developing around the theme of consciousness, you discover that actually a bunch of old ideas are coming back because,

00;54;34;04 - 00;54;35;14
CR Wiley
We even if you.

00;54;35;14 - 00;54;37;22
CR Wiley
Even if you say that.

00;54;37;24 - 00;54;38;25
CR Wiley


00;54;38;27 - 00;54;51;07
CR Wiley
Consciousness is, is an emergent thing that if you get the, the structures of information and, matter, correct, that it just spontaneously emerges.

00;54;51;10 - 00;54;53;09
CR Wiley
That leaves a huge.

00;54;53;12 - 00;54;54;19
CR Wiley
matter to explain.

00;54;54;24 - 00;54;55;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It does.

00;54;55;24 - 00;54;59;27
CR Wiley
Yes. Well, so you're not actually any further, which are almost.

00;55;00;06 - 00;55;01;27
Joshua Hoffert
You're almost worse off with that. Yeah.

00;55;02;01 - 00;55;03;15
CR Wiley
Yeah. Well, which, which, which you.

00;55;03;15 - 00;55;06;28
CR Wiley
Are is kind of discovering, the mystery.

00;55;07;00 - 00;55;10;23
CR Wiley
You know, why would it work that way? Right. So let's.

00;55;10;28 - 00;55;12;09
CR Wiley
But even so.

00;55;12;11 - 00;55;13;02
CR Wiley
when we think about.

00;55;13;02 - 00;55;14;16
CR Wiley
The fact that, you know, my.

00;55;14;16 - 00;55;15;28
CR Wiley
Body,

00;55;16;01 - 00;55;23;27
CR Wiley
Bares my soul, you know, I, I prefer the older language, you know, soul spirits to consciousness. I think consciousness is a pseudoscientific.

00;55;23;27 - 00;55;24;21
CR Wiley
Sure.

00;55;24;23 - 00;55;28;05
CR Wiley
term that's meant to be kind of a.

00;55;28;08 - 00;55;28;27
CR Wiley
Well, just a.

00;55;28;27 - 00;55;32;05
CR Wiley
Way for people to talk about souls of spirits without sounding religious.

00;55;32;07 - 00;55;35;29
CR Wiley
I. Yeah. That's right. So. So,

00;55;36;01 - 00;55;37;05
Joshua Hoffert
The new religion.

00;55;37;07 - 00;55;40;15
CR Wiley
Yeah. Yeah. but but which you have.

00;55;40;16 - 00;55;42;24
CR Wiley
Which you end up having is,

00;55;42;26 - 00;55;43;25
CR Wiley
kind of.

00;55;43;28 - 00;55;51;13
CR Wiley
coming in the back door, this reality. So if I don't even understand how I possess my body right.

00;55;51;15 - 00;55;53;18
CR Wiley
What reason do I.

00;55;53;18 - 00;55;59;05
CR Wiley
Have that has any weight that would dismiss the possibility of God possessing my body?

00;55;59;11 - 00;56;01;08
CR Wiley
Yeah, or a spirit.

00;56;01;10 - 00;56;03;20
CR Wiley
demonic spirit possessing my body.

00;56;03;22 - 00;56;04;15
CR Wiley
I don't know how these.

00;56;04;15 - 00;56;04;23
CR Wiley
Things.

00;56;04;23 - 00;56;08;14
CR Wiley
Work. Right. So, and explain them scientifically.

00;56;08;14 - 00;56;08;27
Joshua Hoffert
So.

00;56;08;28 - 00;56;09;28
CR Wiley
Yeah, they can't even explain.

00;56;09;28 - 00;56;10;06
CR Wiley
Me.

00;56;10;06 - 00;56;14;04
CR Wiley
Scientifically. Yeah, well, a guy like Daniel Dennett who says that, you know.

00;56;14;09 - 00;56;22;08
CR Wiley
You're not real was like, okay, well, thanks a lot, Daniel. that helps me out a lot. The most precious thing I want to retain, my self-awareness.

00;56;22;12 - 00;56;28;09
CR Wiley
Is not real, right? right. So let's all just, knock.

00;56;28;09 - 00;56;36;03
CR Wiley
Off the nonsense and and and admit that, we can't reduce the most precious things in our lives to materialism.

00;56;36;11 - 00;56;37;16
CR Wiley
Yeah, but there's something.

00;56;37;16 - 00;56;39;16
CR Wiley
There's something mysterious going on.

00;56;39;19 - 00;56;44;14
CR Wiley
So, that opens you up to. Okay.

00;56;44;16 - 00;56;54;00
CR Wiley
when Anthony sees these things, what does it imply? Does it imply that there's some physical entity in the other side of the of the cave or the room or whatever?

00;56;54;02 - 00;56;54;24
CR Wiley
Right.

00;56;54;26 - 00;57;01;09
CR Wiley
or the tomb? No. Maybe if other people were there, they wouldn't have seen him. But does that matter right now?

00;57;01;09 - 00;57;05;28
CR Wiley
I'm not. You know, I don't think it does. so.

00;57;06;00 - 00;57;22;16
CR Wiley
I think one of the things that we, we work with when we think about someone like Anthony and his visions is, you know, that old litmus test is you're introduced to in The Chronicles of Narnia, where, you know, the, you know, Susan and Peter are asked about their siblings, Edmund and Lucy, who's more likely to tell the.

00;57;22;16 - 00;57;23;02
CR Wiley
Truth.

00;57;23;02 - 00;57;25;00
Joshua Hoffert
But I've just been reading this to kids.

00;57;25;00 - 00;57;26;21
CR Wiley
Lately, so yeah, I'm.

00;57;26;21 - 00;57;28;13
Joshua Hoffert
Very familiar with it all over again.

00;57;28;13 - 00;57;29;08
CR Wiley
Yeah, yeah.

00;57;29;10 - 00;57;34;02
CR Wiley
So they'd say, well, Lucy's more likely to tell the truth. And then then, you know, Professor Kirk says, why are.

00;57;34;02 - 00;57;41;26
CR Wiley
You why do you not believe her? And instead believe the one who you don't you don't trust, right? That's right. Yes. So anyway.

00;57;41;29 - 00;58;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, she seems incredulous, but she's the one who's most likely telling the truth. Well, with that, with that said, maybe in the last few minutes we could talk about, what do you see in the practices of Anthony that are, that are reproducible to us today, you know, to kind of your average whether it's a pastor or a leader or a layperson.

00;58;06;20 - 00;58;29;27
Joshua Hoffert
And then what do you find in, in your own personal life practices that you see? Anthony, or Athanasius pointing out in Anthony, that are that have been helpful for you and would be helpful for us in fostering an ability to actually see beyond the it beyond, you know, as you're saying, that the eye, beyond the eye and what's actually there.

00;58;29;29 - 00;58;35;08
CR Wiley
Well, I'm just a neophyte, you know, I don't have any pretense to.

00;58;35;10 - 00;58;41;28
Joshua Hoffert
Anthony would say, by the way, if you answer that way, then you truly know what you're talking about.

00;58;42;01 - 00;58;44;27
CR Wiley
Yes. But I do think that,

00;58;44;29 - 00;58;52;18
CR Wiley
Self-Mastery, you know, when I look at Anthony, I think self-mastery is what he's striving for.

00;58;52;20 - 00;58;53;00
CR Wiley
not.

00;58;53;00 - 00;58;59;03
CR Wiley
So that he can be the ubermensch, but so that he can submit to the Lord.

00;58;59;05 - 00;59;00;18
CR Wiley
so.

00;59;00;20 - 00;59;08;11
CR Wiley
you know, he wants, the Lord to be his master. And in order for that to be the case, he needs to have, self-mastery.

00;59;08;12 - 00;59;09;10
CR Wiley
You know?

00;59;09;12 - 00;59;22;11
CR Wiley
And he's got to be able to resist temptation. He's got to be able to discern the spirits. those those are things that I that I, I know when it comes to practice to help you along that line, I think one of the things is.

00;59;22;15 - 00;59;22;27
CR Wiley


00;59;23;00 - 00;59;28;16
CR Wiley
Obviously fasting, self-denial, different kind of different forms of. Okay, you know, so.

00;59;28;18 - 00;59;29;02
CR Wiley
This is one.

00;59;29;02 - 00;59;36;13
CR Wiley
Of those things, again, you know, in the reformed world, you just don't see a lot of a lot of talk, you know, on the subject of fasting.

00;59;36;17 - 00;59;37;29
CR Wiley
Right now, though, you know.

00;59;38;02 - 00;59;48;05
CR Wiley
If you ask your typical, say, reformed pastor, do you think fasting is good and important and should do it? And I'll, I'll say, yeah, because Jesus, that when you fast.

00;59;48;08 - 00;59;56;14
CR Wiley
Right. But then you say, well, when was the last time you did it? well, I spent it's not something I, I spend.

00;59;56;14 - 00;59;57;20
CR Wiley
Much time thinking about.

00;59;57;22 - 00;59;58;22
CR Wiley


00;59;58;25 - 01;00;06;22
CR Wiley
Or putting into practice, but I think, you know, if you have the proper understanding that you're not trying to earn your salvation through.

01;00;06;22 - 01;00;07;22
CR Wiley
This, right? Right.

01;00;07;22 - 01;00;32;22
CR Wiley
But that you're actually trying to pursue sanctification, that you're trying to be responsive to God's Word and you try to make yourself more responsive. Then I think that, you know, forms of self-denial are really important. And one of the forms of self-denial is, abstaining from speaking and interacting with people for a period of time, you know, so you're more aware of your, you know, what's going on inside of you.

01;00;32;27 - 01;00;34;21
CR Wiley
Yeah. You know, you got you got to have you got it.

01;00;34;23 - 01;00;41;07
CR Wiley
This is where the, you know, the the or, you know, the, Delphi, the you know, the maxim.

01;00;41;09 - 01;00;41;15
CR Wiley
Yeah.

01;00;41;18 - 01;00;46;00
CR Wiley
It's, you know, know yourself, you know. Yeah. How are you going to know yourself if you never spend time alone?

01;00;46;01 - 01;00;47;01
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right.

01;00;47;04 - 01;00;48;02
CR Wiley
You know, that kind of stuff.

01;00;48;09 - 01;00;49;12
CR Wiley
Yeah. So,

01;00;49;14 - 01;01;09;01
CR Wiley
I think those things are important. Then I also think, a healthy suspicion of, things that are being, promoted around you, that people are trying to get you to believe. I think, you know, what you have with Anthony is, is a healthy incredulity.

01;01;09;03 - 01;01;10;28
CR Wiley
Right? right.

01;01;11;01 - 01;01;14;00
Joshua Hoffert
willingness to ask a question about an idea.

01;01;14;02 - 01;01;14;27
CR Wiley
Yeah, yeah.

01;01;14;28 - 01;01;40;05
CR Wiley
And and not just take everything at face value or or trust your emotions. So this is one of the things I think is a particularly, difficult or, or problem, particularly problems, matter in our contemporary evangelical world is we're, we're encouraged to trust our impulses. You know, you think about your typical big box evangelical church with the worship band and all that kind of stuff.

01;01;40;08 - 01;01;40;23
CR Wiley
It's all about.

01;01;40;23 - 01;01;42;14
CR Wiley
Manipulating your emotions.

01;01;42;17 - 01;01;43;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Yeah.

01;01;43;10 - 01;01;46;07
CR Wiley
You all hyped up? Yeah. And,

01;01;46;09 - 01;01;47;09
CR Wiley
And kind of like.

01;01;47;15 - 01;01;49;15
CR Wiley


01;01;49;18 - 01;01;54;19
CR Wiley
Giving more, credence to whatever kind of bubbles up inside of you.

01;01;54;22 - 01;01;56;05
CR Wiley
Than right.

01;01;56;07 - 01;02;00;09
CR Wiley
You know, meditating on the word or something.

01;02;00;12 - 01;02;01;19
CR Wiley
so we're, we're.

01;02;01;22 - 01;02;05;00
CR Wiley
We're just encouraging people to become kind of like.

01;02;05;03 - 01;02;06;07
CR Wiley


01;02;06;10 - 01;02;08;29
CR Wiley
Brainstorms that just.

01;02;09;02 - 01;02;09;16
CR Wiley
right, and.

01;02;09;18 - 01;02;15;06
CR Wiley
Respond to stimuli rather than people who actually engage in some serious reflection.

01;02;15;09 - 01;02;15;26
CR Wiley
Right.

01;02;15;28 - 01;02;26;00
CR Wiley
And and we're surprised when our churches are kind of being seduced all around us by every kind of weird thing you can imagine.

01;02;26;02 - 01;02;28;01
CR Wiley
now, I think that.

01;02;28;03 - 01;02;31;10
CR Wiley
That's not the only thing that's going on in the church. I think there are a lot of other things.

01;02;31;10 - 01;02;32;06
CR Wiley
That are sure but.

01;02;32;08 - 01;02;42;00
CR Wiley
Healthy and positive and, and and, you know, we're talking about one of them today and that's going back into the history of the church and recovering some of the testimonies of our fathers in the faith.

01;02;42;02 - 01;02;42;12
CR Wiley
Right.

01;02;42;12 - 01;02;44;06
CR Wiley
And and learning from them.

01;02;44;08 - 01;02;45;19
CR Wiley
But I think.

01;02;45;21 - 01;02;55;17
CR Wiley
I think, you know, when it comes to putting into practice some of the things that you can see in Anthony, those are the two things, you know. So self-mastery and a healthy incredulity.

01;02;55;20 - 01;03;15;21
Joshua Hoffert
Right, right. I think yeah, that's really, really good. I think it's it I'm paraphrasing this a little bit, but there's a refrain in the, in the Sayings of the Desert Fathers and maybe the anonymous sayings that essentially says, if you say, follow your heart, which is, you know, something we would obviously here today.

01;03;15;23 - 01;03;16;25
CR Wiley
Out here at all times.

01;03;16;27 - 01;03;18;26
Joshua Hoffert
Quickest way to self-deception.

01;03;18;28 - 01;03;21;06
CR Wiley
Oh, yeah. That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I.

01;03;21;06 - 01;03;22;08
CR Wiley
Think, I think that's one of the.

01;03;22;08 - 01;03;26;08
CR Wiley
Things that I, talk to my.

01;03;26;08 - 01;03;27;01
CR Wiley
Church about all the.

01;03;27;01 - 01;03;27;26
CR Wiley
Time. Right.

01;03;28;01 - 01;03;32;28
CR Wiley
and it's actually kind of, it's actually liberating. and it's something that maybe people miss.

01;03;32;28 - 01;03;35;09
CR Wiley
It is that. Don't trust yourself. Yeah.

01;03;35;09 - 01;03;37;04
CR Wiley
You could be a slave to your emotional state.

01;03;37;09 - 01;04;01;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Yeah, there's there's a story actually just undergirding that in the in the lives of the Desert Fathers about a monk named Valens, who was a very, very well respected monk. We're talking for a century, and he, he had an experience in his cell. It's a well known, well respected. He has an experience in his cell where he loses a a an an item that he cares about.

01;04;01;06 - 01;04;25;28
Joshua Hoffert
I can't remember what it is. Maybe a coin or something like that. And an apparition appears in the form of a light that illuminates the item, and he gets it. And that's where the devil goes. I got him because now he starts to think something of himself, right? And eventually he has a series of visions. The final vision has him looking at Jesus far off an array of angels, and he's convinced he's more spiritual than anybody else.

01;04;26;01 - 01;04;36;23
Joshua Hoffert
And so he refuses then to come to the church and fellowship and partake of communion, and says, I no longer need you because I've been perfected, because of this vision I've had.

01;04;36;25 - 01;04;37;07
CR Wiley
Yeah.

01;04;37;13 - 01;04;49;22
Joshua Hoffert
And so, you know what they do is they lock him up for a year. And literally, they put him in chains in a back room for a year until he's recovered himself and he's back to.

01;04;49;24 - 01;04;55;08
CR Wiley
He's insane again. well, there's a method.

01;04;55;08 - 01;04;56;03
CR Wiley
Of church discipline.

01;04;56;03 - 01;04;57;05
CR Wiley
I have not yet.

01;04;57;08 - 01;05;05;09
Joshua Hoffert
But that's, you know, that's a in a way, that's what you're you know, it's a it's a, there's a there's a ring of truth to how they deal with some of those.

01;05;05;12 - 01;05;07;11
CR Wiley
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right. But that's the.

01;05;07;14 - 01;05;08;16
Joshua Hoffert
Incredulity.

01;05;08;16 - 01;05;09;11
CR Wiley
Of. Yeah.

01;05;09;14 - 01;05;36;09
Joshua Hoffert
Is this thing I'm being presented with actually reflective of what God is like, what I know in the scriptures and, and what I've been taught is it is it that thing? And if I have no self-mastery, you know, Cassian talks about the, John Cassian, right? One of the the coda fires of the Desert Fathers talks about how, silence and solitude introduce you to yourself, but fasting introduces you to your desires.

01;05;36;11 - 01;05;42;11
Joshua Hoffert
and you go, oh, I'm starting to see that I crave things when I deny myself and I.

01;05;42;13 - 01;05;42;16
CR Wiley
If.

01;05;42;18 - 01;05;50;08
Joshua Hoffert
I, I'm, I'm, you know, very practically go. If I deny myself that thing, I gain mastery over what what I crave and what I desire.

01;05;50;15 - 01;05;50;21
CR Wiley
Yeah.

01;05;50;26 - 01;06;21;27
Joshua Hoffert
And and so there's, there really is a one of the things I love about these guys is there's an Anthony in particular is there's a very practical, you know, and you could say and flesh reality to, oh, yeah, what we would call spiritual will disciplines. Right. That it kind of gets carry this air of, you know, maybe an esoteric air about them and but they're very much, very practical.

01;06;21;29 - 01;06;25;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. I'm, I'm in silence and I start to hear my thoughts.

01;06;25;25 - 01;06;27;10
CR Wiley
Right? Yeah. It's. Yeah, I think.

01;06;27;10 - 01;06;31;05
CR Wiley
Some people I think some people avoid silence. Precisely for that reason.

01;06;31;12 - 01;06;31;26
CR Wiley
Right.

01;06;31;28 - 01;06;56;12
Joshua Hoffert
And I think some people think, well, I'm going to do these disciplines because I'll somehow make contact with the numinous or the holy or the soup. That's what I mean by esoteric, that the other worldly or the spiritual. Right. And so, well, actually, you introduce you're introduced to yourself and Anthony's great prayer, which you alluded to, with the, the Oracle comment is in the, in the confessions where he says, Lord, teach me to know myself.

01;06;56;12 - 01;07;03;08
Joshua Hoffert
Teach me to know you, teach me to know myself. And forever linking the knowledge of God and the knowledge of self. Right.

01;07;03;08 - 01;07;03;23
CR Wiley
And yeah.

01;07;04;01 - 01;07;12;23
CR Wiley
Here's an interesting thought. truth. this is what Calvin and the beginning of the institutes stresses. You can't know your self unless you strive to know God.

01;07;12;25 - 01;07;14;02
CR Wiley
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

01;07;14;04 - 01;07;15;25
CR Wiley
Because you're coming up against God's law.

01;07;15;28 - 01;07;35;28
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right. Exactly. So. Well, Chris has been an awesome conversation. I'm so thankful to, we're able to jump on. And what? So what's the kind of the timeline for, the the book that you're working on? Is there anything that you look forward to in the present future, or any resources you'd point people to presently?

01;07;36;00 - 01;08;02;25
CR Wiley
Well, in the near future, I'm going to be actually a, the theme of my talk at the Touchstone conference in Chicago in September is this. Okay, so, so I wrote a book entitled The Household and War for the cosmos, and that was based on a talk I gave a few years back at the touchstone conference. And, so this is, another touchstone conference talk that will be the sort of the seed of the book or the, the, the kind of the kernel.

01;08;02;28 - 01;08;15;21
CR Wiley
And then, over the course of this next year, I'm giving some lectures at new Senators College in Idaho. And each of the sections of the book will be developed for those lectures and then all compiled, and published after that.

01;08;15;22 - 01;08;16;13
CR Wiley
Okay.

01;08;16;16 - 01;08;20;28
CR Wiley
So those are the things that are in the near future that give you a sense of what it will be.

01;08;21;01 - 01;08;26;19
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And what was the name of the book you that you presently wrote? The kind of starts the conversation you said.

01;08;26;21 - 01;08;27;25
CR Wiley
Well, well.

01;08;27;25 - 01;08;37;18
CR Wiley
I wrote a book that was, based on a talk. I gave it the touchstone conference back. maybe 4 or 5 years ago, entitled The Household and the word for the cosmos.

01;08;37;18 - 01;08;39;10
Joshua Hoffert
The household and the word for the cosmos.

01;08;39;10 - 01;08;50;17
CR Wiley
Yeah. And that's actually based on, the, the Aeneid. So it's it's a development of, of kind of, the Anita as a foil.

01;08;50;20 - 01;08;52;08
CR Wiley
To,

01;08;52;10 - 01;09;03;17
CR Wiley
The, program that we see, carried out, with the household of Abraham. So the household of in the, in the household of Abraham, where they would have playing off each other right.

01;09;03;19 - 01;09;05;26
Joshua Hoffert
And you can find that you can find out on Amazon.

01;09;06;01 - 01;09;06;22
CR Wiley
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's.

01;09;06;22 - 01;09;07;22
CR Wiley
Probably my best known book.

01;09;07;29 - 01;09;23;06
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. Yeah. So look for that one on Amazon. I'll probably I'll put a link in the podcast description to that. And for anybody that's interested check out the theology podcast Plug Kast because you guys have a plug as you get it.

01;09;23;08 - 01;09;24;08
CR Wiley
That's your.

01;09;24;11 - 01;09;32;04
Joshua Hoffert
mascot. Yes. And, we're working on the, Wiley Coyote as our mascot.

01;09;32;04 - 01;09;35;21
CR Wiley
So are you serious? That's fine. obviously, my.

01;09;35;21 - 01;09;39;07
CR Wiley
My nickname as a kid was, coyote, for obvious reasons.

01;09;39;09 - 01;09;42;18
Joshua Hoffert
For all that works. Yes. That's right, that's right.

01;09;42;18 - 01;09;43;11
CR Wiley
Yeah.

01;09;43;13 - 01;09;54;03
Joshua Hoffert
And, Okay. Well, Chris, thanks so much for coming on and, and helping us understand this. And, we will have to have you back to continue the conversation.

01;09;54;03 - 01;09;55;17
CR Wiley
So thanks. I'll be honored.

01;09;55;17 - 01;09;57;10
CR Wiley
To do that. Thank you for having me.

01;09;57;12 - 01;10;10;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. Okay. Well, everybody, have a good one. And thanks so much for tuning in to.

01;10;10;28 - 01;10;11;19
Joshua Hoffert
Church.