In our latest episode, we explore the transformative power of faith in the face of profound adversity. Through a tapestry of stories, we uncover how spiritual growth and redemption guide individuals through life's darkest moments. Teresa's journey takes us from the scars of abuse to the sanctuary of faith, a narrative that resonates with themes of resilience and hope. We then delve into the complex realities of single motherhood, trauma, and education, showcasing the courage it takes to juggle caregiving and personal advancement. Our guests also discuss the dichotomy within religious communities—where stigma and compassion coexist—and share how their paths ultimately led them to embrace the Gospel's message of love and acceptance. As this chapter closes, we leave you with stories of healing and new beginnings, highlighting that true transformation lies in finding strength through God's guidance. This episode is more than a collection of stories; it's an affirmation that faith can provide the anchor we need to weather life's storms.
12:53 - Transitioning Through Trauma and Turmoil
23:31 - Trauma and Abuse in Christian School
41:33 - Surviving Abuse and Finding Strength
50:31 - College Transition for Single Parent
55:08 - Challenges of Single Motherhood and Faith
1:11:48 - Journey of Healing and Transformation
1:20:21 - Discovering Faith Through Bible Studies
1:24:02 - Discovering Freedom Through Understanding the Gospel
1:39:02 - Discovering Freedom and Intimacy With God
💰 DONATE & SUPPORT our Ministry: lovereality.org/give
👍 LIKE us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alovereality
📷 FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/riyoung31/
📚 LEARN more at our site: lovereality.org
Looking for discipleship and fellowship? Join a Circle at lovereality.org/circles
In our latest episode, we explore the transformative power of faith in the face of profound adversity. Through a tapestry of stories, we uncover how spiritual growth and redemption guide individuals through life's darkest moments. Teresa's journey takes us from the scars of abuse to the sanctuary of faith, a narrative that resonates with themes of resilience and hope. We then delve into the complex realities of single motherhood, trauma, and education, showcasing the courage it takes to juggle caregiving and personal advancement. Our guests also discuss the dichotomy within religious communities—where stigma and compassion coexist—and share how their paths ultimately led them to embrace the Gospel's message of love and acceptance. As this chapter closes, we leave you with stories of healing and new beginnings, highlighting that true transformation lies in finding strength through God's guidance. This episode is more than a collection of stories; it's an affirmation that faith can provide the anchor we need to weather life's storms.
12:53 - Transitioning Through Trauma and Turmoil
23:31 - Trauma and Abuse in Christian School
41:33 - Surviving Abuse and Finding Strength
50:31 - College Transition for Single Parent
55:08 - Challenges of Single Motherhood and Faith
1:11:48 - Journey of Healing and Transformation
1:20:21 - Discovering Faith Through Bible Studies
1:24:02 - Discovering Freedom Through Understanding the Gospel
1:39:02 - Discovering Freedom and Intimacy With God
💰 DONATE & SUPPORT our Ministry: lovereality.org/give
👍 LIKE us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alovereality
📷 FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/riyoung31/
📚 LEARN more at our site: lovereality.org
Looking for discipleship and fellowship? Join a Circle at lovereality.org/circles
The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
Speaker 2:After I became pregnant, I was still being sexually abused. I was very depressed, feeling super hopeless, trapped, and at this point I prayed to God that we would move away from Indonesia, and my parents had no idea I was pregnant at this point.
Speaker 1:At this point. Yo, welcome to the death to life podcast. My name is Richard Young and this podcast I did not see it coming. This is with my sister, teresa. I didn't see it coming. Guys, I'm going to be honest with you. I've known Teresa for a little bit. Uh, I'm shook. I'm shook with this episode. If you've seen Teresa on the Bible studies, now you're about to hear the whole shebangabang and it is not for the babies. So use discretion and discernment. But this episode, lord, have mercy, buckle up, strap in, let's get into it. Love y'all, appreciate y'allall. Here is teresa. Teresa, did you write anything down? Do you have it in your head? Where does? Where are we going take us back?
Speaker 2:in time okay, so I thought we could start with um just right before I was born.
Speaker 2:Um my parents yeah, before before I was born, um, my parents yeah, before before I was born, my parents left the U? S to be missionaries, so I was born in Singapore. Um, yeah and um. I was the first child of their marriage, the eldest child of my dad. I have an older brother who's 10 years older. My mom was married before and had him, and so he was living with us. He moved with us to Singapore, but then shortly after he left to go live with his dad in California, and so I wasn't able to be around him that much, you know, cause he wasn't living with us. Um, but so my dad was the ninth in a line of men to have the same name. I won't say what his name is, but I was supposed to be a boy, and my parents were so sure of that that they didn't pick out a name, and it took three days for them to name me.
Speaker 1:You were just baby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was baby, uh-huh and um. So, yeah, and they tell, they told me that story and so I think, um, the reason I say that is because I had all this angst about not being like, feeling like I was supposed to be a boy, um, and I'll circle back around to that. But when I was two, two to three years old, my family left and we moved to Guam and, um, we lived in an Adventist community behind the Guam seventh Adventist clinic. The neighborhood were all Adventist doctors, except for my dad who was the administrator of the clinic, and I think in you know, living in a community like that is really there's really something special about it.
Speaker 2:I have some really fond memories where, like, we did an activity scene one year with all the kids and we would go swimming. All the neighborhood kids would go swimming together at the pool. We had like spontaneous vespers and meals at different people's houses and you know, we're just all like it was just really a tight knit community. The first few years. I mean, I don't remember a lot because I was like two when I got there, but I do remember at some point I was the only girl on the block for a while and there was one kid that was an older boy that was really like a brother to me and really protected me from teasing and other antics of the boys, um. But some of the community was pretty transient and that people would be there for a few years and then leave Um, and then someone stayed longer Um. So after we moved to Guam, my sister was born. She was super cute. She quickly became the favorite.
Speaker 1:I think how many generations of your family are in the church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my dad actually became an Adventist when he was 19. So he was a first generation Adventist.
Speaker 1:Where was he living?
Speaker 2:He was living in DC.
Speaker 1:And what about your mom?
Speaker 2:And my mom. My mom was adopted, um, and her family was Adventist when she was growing up, so she she grew up at going to aventus schools and um, yeah, so what part of the world is she from?
Speaker 1:pacific northwest okay yeah, like near portland, vancouver, washington okay that's where my friend chico cuts hair in vancouver, washington yeah, beautiful place beautiful so you're in guam. Baby sister comes. She's the favorite how long were?
Speaker 2:you guys in guam we were there 10 years. Oh wow, yeah. So my mom my dad worked as administrator of the clinic and my mom homeschooled my sister and I and some of the other kids actually on the block, and then she developed a school from that.
Speaker 1:Do you still like love Island life and like have like that as a part of like who you are? Like? My wife grew up in Hawaii so she loves things like. She loves the summer, she loves the sun, she loves all that stuff. Do you have similar stuff like that?
Speaker 2:I think I I have um this thing where I have, like I'm still on island time all the time, like where?
Speaker 2:I struggled with yeah, I struggled with with, uh, being on time or just. I always want to be like chill and relaxed. I think that's an island thing, um. But other than that I am not really. Obviously, sometimes I think about it and miss it, um. But so some of my earliest experiences with God were turning to him, when I was frightened. One time there was a typhoon they called hurricanes on the mainland, of course, but this was Typhoon Omar and we boarded up all the windows. And I remember looking out this really small high window in our dining room and the wind was blowing like crazy. There was debris flying everywhere, it was hitting our car and in fact, the wind pulled up the tree, this huge tree that was in our front yard just like pulled it up by the roots and just like flopped it over and I was so scared, I was just like, and I was really obsessing about how the car was going to get damaged, and so I ran to my room and I was kneeled by the bed.
Speaker 2:I was like dear. Lord, please save our car. You know, I was like really scared and so, yeah, and then when we attended this church called Dead at Oath, seventh-day Adventist Church, and one Sabbath, we were singing to him and I was really just pouring my heart and soul into singing to God and I felt this presence come over me, just like a warm, loving presence, what I understood to be the Holy Spirit, and I made a decision in that moment. There wasn't like an altar call, I don't think it or anything like that.
Speaker 2:But I just made the decision to be baptized and um, and to give my life to God. And so. I was nine at the time, yeah.
Speaker 1:And who was the God you were giving your life to?
Speaker 2:I. I think I did feel loved. I did feel like God loved me and cared about me. I just think I had a simple type of idea you know of who.
Speaker 2:God was. He loved me and that was it, so I was giving my heart to him. They made me go through a baptismal class, but I wasn't really that interested in what I don't think I like even. I still have the book and I didn't fill it out that much and I don't know. Anyway, I was baptized in the pacific ocean and I was wearing this purple t-shirt that I got in bbs on the mainland. I'm actually wearing it right now.
Speaker 1:Says jesus is king you're wearing the shirt you were baptized in at age nine yes, that's so cool.
Speaker 2:I know um, so uh. Some of the summers we would travel to the Pacific Northwest to see my grandpa and I was the apple of my grandpa's eye. As children, we all need that person that delights in us, and for me that person was my grandpa. I got my love of gardening from him. He spent so much time with me. He showed me how to do things. I wrote on his lap in the riding mower that he would mow the lawn and I remember one time I ran to the garage to close the garage door and I grabbed the and it ran over my finger and I was like screaming and crying and I ran in and my grandpa was so he just comforted me and pulled me up in a big bear hug and kept saying things like bless your heart, bless your heart and um.
Speaker 2:On Sabbath mornings he would play the song in the garden I think that's what it's called Like I come to the garden alone and I could see that he had this connection with Jesus and it felt. I felt that love that he poured out on me in in those in my time with him. It was only in the summers, but when I reached fourth, fifth, sixth grade. I had a hard time fitting in. I was bullied by other kids For what? And I would try to fit. What was that?
Speaker 1:For what? Why are they bullying you?
Speaker 2:I was just awkward, I didn't know how to fix my hair, you know, it's just stuff like clothes and hair and stuff like that and I was super mean to my sister and this other little boy on the on the block because I think I was, like, you know, just repeating what I was experiencing and it just just I don't know. Just I felt really rejected and ostracized and at one point, um, things escalated where the boys in the neighborhood, you know in their minds they probably were thinking we're just playing, but they like, they like kidnapped me and like dragged me to this meeting that they had and they even gagged me.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:I know At the time yeah, it was just, and there were not everyone, but there were a few boys that actually really seemed angry, so it was really terrifying, actually really seemed angry, so it was really terrifying.
Speaker 1:Um, but when, when I was 12, my parents decided that we were going to move to indonesia, so you do, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know. We moved to a university campus at the foothills of a mountain on the island of java and it was near, I know like I didn't know.
Speaker 1:I thought you were gonna be like. I'm from virginia what what language do they speak? Is it indonesian?
Speaker 2:it's called bahasa indonesia.
Speaker 1:Um indonesian I mean did you learn any of it?
Speaker 2:yes, but there are like 3 000 islands or something like that that make up Indonesia, so it's like so diverse and there's dialects, so like Bahasa Indonesia is like. It's like it's sort of just yeah. Anyway, my mom decided to homeschool me, but my parents were very busy teaching. My dad was teaching accounting and business classes there at Unai and my mom was teaching English. So I had never been a great self-starter or a person that took initiative to, and so I was kind of left a little bit on my own to figure out, you know, my classes and things, and so that didn't really go well and we were on a college campus and I didn't have any friends where we were living my age. But the college students were really interested in my sister and I because there were a lot of, like white people around and they would wave and some of the men would serenade my sister and I when we were, when we would walk outside of our house. It was really interesting.
Speaker 2:I was really lonely there because, because there weren't I wasn't friends with kids my age and I was trying to find a sense of belonging. So when some of the students would talk to me and try to befriend me, I was all about it. Some of the students would talk to me and try to befriend me, I was all about it. Um, and the result of that situation was I was very vulnerable and, um, I ended up being groomed and then sexually abused by a male student who was a senior, uh, there, and it was over a period of a year and a half. And when that student graduated, another student stepped in and just took his place in a sense.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I felt this enormous guilt and shame and I would read the Bible to excuse me, to get guidance, and of course I didn't know, you know, there's nothing that says like directly what to do in this situation, excuse me, in this situation like this. So I just came away kind of confused and and there's nothing that says like don't have, you know, don't have sex before marriage or anything like that, right In the commandments Um and I was taught, you know, to focus a lot on the commandments Um- did you know what was happening or was this like all confusing?
Speaker 1:and then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I didn't. I didn't know what was happening. I was very naive, very I had been. I mean, I lived in an Adventist community, right. I was like really sheltered. I had no idea about, um, just any of that, right I was, or sexual abuse. Certainly didn't know that. I didn't even know that I had been sexually abused until like years later when I started learning like going to trainings and stuff as a therapist, like going to trainings and stuff as a therapist, so um, but I became pregnant from the sexual abuse of the second man that was doing that.
Speaker 1:And had he known about the guy from before? Or was it just some guy like just?
Speaker 2:yeah, he did know, but they weren't connected. It's just um, you know, it's just like I was vulnerable and I think like he just like really was pushing and came in and started sexually abusing me. How old were you at this?
Speaker 2:time, 14. Yeah, I was 13 when I was when I first started being sexually abused. So, yeah, all the while that this was going on, there was also a lot of political unrest in Indonesia. There was a person that was the president at the time. His name was Suharto, he was a dictator and the there was a lot of poverty. There was just a lot of corruption and there started students started demonstrating and then there was a lot of um riots that started happening on the Island of Java. So Jakarta, the capital, is on the island of Java. We lived in Bandung, which is like a couple hours drive from Jakarta, and there were demonstrations happening in Bandung as well, but thankfully, no riots. But we would have to check, like the embassy website, every day at one point to see if it was safe to go outside and, you know, into the city and stuff like that. So, um, I, you said you ended up pregnant.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'll get back to that, but there were some close calls, um, when we were were out in public and like where we felt really unsafe and something. You know. It was just scary, a scary time, um. But yeah, so while I was, after I became pregnant, I was still being sexually abused.
Speaker 2:I was very depressed, feeling super hopeless, trapped, and at this point I prayed to God that we would move away from Indonesia and I think part of it was like I just wanted to be out of the situation that I was in, situation that I was in, and within the same week I prayed, my dad received three job offers from within the church to go work somewhere else and he accepted a position in the West Virginia Conference. So I knew God had heard me because the answer came so definitively and swiftly. Because the answer came so definitively and swiftly and my parents had no idea I was pregnant at this point. I had really bad morning sickness and I just hit it by turning on the water and flushing the toilet. When I would throw up in the bathroom, they started to notice, obviously when we were traveling because you're traveling all together and then I had to throw up on the plane and it's just not typical for me to be sick like that.
Speaker 2:And we arrived in West Virginia in the summer of 2000. And our first experience was there was camp meeting at Valley Vista and there was this youth leader or pastor, we'll call him, I'll just call him Kyle. He was working there at the summer camp and he had, he just, we'll just say he had difficulty with appropriate boundaries, so he discovered I was pregnant before everyone else knew. And yeah, I love those things Like.
Speaker 1:It's just sad, I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know it's hard to reflect on all this. It's yeah, it is sad. So they he, along with another staff member they really like forced me to tell my parents that I was pregnant, which was a relief, of course. I mean I was trying to hide something that could not be hit at some point. So they were obviously really upset. They didn't speak to me for a few days and, of course, being pregnant at 15, I really didn't fit in with my peers at church. But you know, when I was thinking about it, west Virginia probably wasn't the worst place to end up as far as being a pregnant teen goes, but people did make up some wild stories in their heads about me and how I got pregnant, which made things feel made me feel even more shame.
Speaker 2:Um, and my daughter, christiana, was born a couple months before my 16th birthday. I had named her after the the wife and of Christian and Pilgrim's Progress, because that was a favorite book of mine, and when she was born I was totally in love with her. After three months, or about three months after she was born, my parents sent me to Mount Vernon Academy in Ohio. It's now closed down, but it was a boarding school at the time and they had decided they were going to adopt her and raise her as their daughter. I totally believe what they were doing. They thought they were doing the right thing, but it was devastating to me. I felt abandoned, exiled, shunned, sorry, just really heartbroken Because I felt that I had lost.
Speaker 1:I wasn't going to cry. You're good. It's okay to be sad about something that's sad I had felt.
Speaker 2:I felt that I had lost not only my daughter but my entire family. And when I arrived to live in the dorm, some of the girls wrote in shaming cream on the mirror welcome to hell. And I was already, like, really overwhelmed and scared. So I became so depressed and had constant intrusive suicidal thoughts, particularly at night, and I immediately looked for validation, for a sense of belonging, protection, and I started. A senior at the school Excuse me, he was an atheist, he was into alternative rock music, stuff that I had never heard before. I think he also had a hard time feeling like he belonged because he was Japanese. He was there at the school, away from his family.
Speaker 1:At this time? Do you feel like you were still innocent outside of this thing that had happened? You've grown up kind of sheltered in foreign countries and you don't know much about American culture, and yet you've had this thing happen and now you're feeling all kinds of guilt, shame, condemnation, depression.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. I. I was still really naive about a lot of things Like I. I remember I, when I came to the U S, I would I bought like cosmopolitan and it was like reading it to try to figure out like you're like taking these quizzes? Yeah, I'm like trying to figure out, like, how do? How do people like, how do you fit in? You know, how do you be American? Um, I don't know. It's like obviously that was probably the worst. That's probably pretty terrible place to get advice, but it's so sad yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:While I was out Mount Vernon Academy, I called my brother who I hadn't had. He had been estranged from our family and I hadn't spoken to him in like 10 years and or at least a significant amount of time. I don't remember if him in like 10 years and or at least a significant amount of time. I don't remember if it was exactly 10 years but he talked to me for hours about his life, his thoughts about God. He's agnostic and he's thrown up a lot of questions and feelings about God, and he seemed really angry at God.
Speaker 2:Growing up, anger wasn't an emotion that was seen as okay in my family to openly express, and so I expressed my anger in passive, aggressive ways, and I was doing some of that with God in that through my behavior I would do things that I knew weren't what maybe he wanted me to do, but I was like I'm mad at you. I gave him the silent treatment for a long time and I would yeah, I just would act out my anger doing things that I knew was like harmful, that he didn't want me to do, and I knew he probably felt sad about that um so my parents pulled me out of Mount Vernon Academy, even though the scary boyfriend was graduating.
Speaker 2:They then they put me in this rural school in West Virginia where I boarded with the principal, and at that point I kind I, I dyed my hair, I sort of went into this emo thing like super dark of went into this emo thing like super dark.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I started um, self-mutilating, cutting myself. Yeah, I was really depressed and I was really acting out my pain and my depression. Um, and while I was at the school, that same youth pastor, kyle, came and saw me and I confided in him that I wanted to be a pastor one day. I know even with all this stuff. But so he takes me right to 1 Timothy 2, verse 12, and tells me that it's not possible. And that really crushed me.
Speaker 2:And that really crushed me. I remember at one point I was when I was living with this principal I was listening to heavy metal music and I felt this demonic presence and I did make a choice. Right then I was like no, thank you. And I turned make a choice. Right then I was like no, thank you, and I turned it off. But I knew, but even then I knew that even if I didn't have a palpable presence of evil, I was still under a lot of oppression.
Speaker 4:I ended up attempting suicide by overdosing on ibuprofen, of all things, and is that possible? Like yeah, I was like I don't know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it took like 40 pills and I got really sick.
Speaker 1:After taking the 40 pills, were you like it's over, Like you really thought you were going to die.
Speaker 2:I think so, yeah, I, you know it's I. There was this sense of like, okay, like maybe this will be it, you know, um, but after that, when all that happened, I got really sick. I actually threw up because my stomach was like whoa. And when I didn't die, I completely shut down because I got even more depressed, because I was like, oh, it didn't work. You know I'm not dead, or you know, I was just so depressed and and I wouldn't go to class, I wouldn't participate, I was done. I would just like I would ride with the principal to the school, but I would just like sit in a room in the corner with, like, my head on my you know knees or whatever. So, um, the principal found out that, through somebody, that.
Speaker 2:I think it was my roommate or something, um, that I had overdosed and she took me in. This was three years, three, excuse me, three days later she took me to the ER and I had these memory verse cards with the Beatitudes written on them and I would just repeat each of these, the blessed statements, kind of like a mantra, and that would just be. I was just crying and crying, and crying. I remember the ER doctor to this day. He was so kind and and and gentle. Um, I was admitted to the psych ward where I stayed for about a week and it was just a lonely, depressing place. I mean, it was just really like a holding place. I was still just as depressed and I was discharged from the hospital and I was home for a short time and then I was taken to Miracle Meadows school.
Speaker 2:And Miracle Meadows school it was called a reform school, but it was really a place where kids were sent for a variety of reasons, like a lot of times they were acting up. It wasn't. I don't know if it's not necessarily called a bootcamp, but it's just like a school where you couldn't get kicked out unless you were headed to prison or juvie, and if you ran away. You were picked up by the police and returned. My sister and I were both sent there, the police and returned. My sister and I were both sent there and while we were there, we both experienced sexual, physical and emotional abuse by the staff members of the school, and the school has since been shut down.
Speaker 1:Is this a Christian school?
Speaker 2:So this school was loosely affiliated with the West Virginia Adventist conference. Oh yeah, and there have actually been two multimillion dollar lawsuits against the school. Um, like over a hundred million dollars paid out because of what. I mean, you can Google it and there's all kinds of crazy stuff.
Speaker 1:Um, and you were there, like in the middle of all this stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one of the things that happened while I was there, I ran away or tried to run away, and what they did when you ran away is they would take your clothes. So you would just be in this room. That was like a concrete room and it wasn't. The door wasn't locked, but it had an alarm on it. So you walk out of the room, there's an alarm and they they know you're, they'll just put you right back in the room, Um, and so they took away they would. You had your like bra and underwear, but they would take away your clothes. So you there was try to deter you from running away, I guess, and they would make you write out Bible verses like on paper.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was terrible religious trauma abuse it was. It was just bad. So at this time I think I was so confused about god because I had been told throughout my life that god is love, but then the actual theology of the people in my life were believing what they were believing and the behavior of the people in authority in my life was violent, abusive, abusive, neglectful, controlling and violence, abuse, neglect, dominance. This is all antithetical to love, and yet these people claim to follow God and even thought of themselves as loving. They would call it tough love and to this day I have such a visceral response in my body to hearing those words. I was just being gaslit by almost every single person in authority and I was so angry and confused and I thought I was going crazy because it wasn't matching Right.
Speaker 1:I did a carousel that said that there's no such thing as tough love, and people were so angry they wanted to believe in this thing called tough love.
Speaker 2:It's yeah, the path to tough love is death.
Speaker 4:That's what it is.
Speaker 2:I know that firsthand and while I was there, I at MMS, I became involved with someone who you know. I mean, I'm saying this and I'm like, wow, what a pattern. I become involved with someone who was a staff member. Oh no.
Speaker 2:And his mother was also a staff member and she really encouraged and enabled our interactions while I was still a student and enabled our interactions while I was still a student and then, shortly after I aged out of the program and I was still seeing this person like we were like dating, I guess you could say and this led to me becoming pregnant with my second daughter, kayla, and because of everything that had happened with my eldest daughter, I felt so much shame and fear and I was afraid of what would happen if I didn't take control of the situation immediately, and I also didn't want people to like also be able to count back and know that I had had like sex out of marriage. So I decided to elope with the father of my daughter and so we did. We got married and we then left on a road trip to california to stay with a family of another student from america, meadows, who had also aged out of the program and then this person was no longer than working at.
Speaker 1:Obviously he quit his job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was not working there anymore. On that trip to California Holy Spirit made his presence known to me and was consistently making provision for me. Known to me and was consistently making provision for me. And I won't go into all the stories because that would just take forever. But I was hired to work as a nanny for a family with nine children. That didn't work out and then we moved to another house of somebody in Orange County.
Speaker 2:My husband at that time had already struggled with addiction, but when we arrived in orange county it really escalated um he got involved with other people who were addicts and they really made our lives miserable like this is drugs and alcohol drugs like carter drugs yeah what was he doing?
Speaker 1:miracle metals? What was his job there?
Speaker 3:you don't have to tell me what his job was but feels a little so okay, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was. He was a student and then he aged out and they made him a staff member. I know.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, fix it, jesus, I know All right.
Speaker 2:Mercy True words Yay.
Speaker 2:I know. So I did not know this at the time, but my husband was addicted to meth. But I remember one night I was about seven months pregnant with my second daughter, kayla I woke up and these men were throwing rocks at the window of our bedroom and I was terrified and I tried to wake him up and he wouldn't wake up and I later realized it was because his body was so desperate for sleep, because he had been up. He would stay up all night because of the meth and he he couldn't wake up. He would like needed that sleep. So I was like doing everything to wake him up. I couldn't wake up, but that was really scary. Um, he had a job but he was using more and more of his money for drugs and there was less and less money for food. And I'm pregnant. So this is really kind of embarrassing to admit, but like going to potluck was a way to eat going to potluck yes why is that embarrassing?
Speaker 2:I, I don't know, it just feels it still feels kind of like wow no, I mean you could get a.
Speaker 1:Depending on the church, you could get a great meal, like no for real, and I I realize I think that's you know.
Speaker 2:one thing I realized is that you know, depending on where we are in our like, some people really do depend on potluck to eat and that's why I think it is so important to have potluck at churches.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, the more potluck. How many kinds of mac and cheese and potatoes can we have? I?
Speaker 3:know and the patties with the gray gravy. Those carbs, fill you up right and give me some kind of baked spaghetti.
Speaker 1:Anyway, keep going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the people at that church that we went to, the Orange County Seven Damnedest Church, they were just so incredibly kind and they showed me the love of Jesus. Praise the Lord. Sorry, incredibly kind and they showed me the love of jesus.
Speaker 1:Praise the lord sorry, no, this story, uh, theresa, I have. We have barely talked and just hearing this, I'm just praising god yeah yeah, I have. I mean, I don't know why I would have known any of this, I know.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, I don't go around advertising it or anything.
Speaker 1:How old are you at this point when you're in California?
Speaker 2:19.
Speaker 1:So much From these four years, from 15 to 19, it seems like there was like three lifetimes of sadness in there you know, that's so interesting.
Speaker 2:You say that my husband, when I he my husband, my current husband, my husband right now um, when he met me and I shared with him what I had been through, he was like man. It's like you've lived a thousand lifetimes, yeah, yeah, so I get that. But Holy Spirit really ministered to me through these beautiful people at the Orange County SD Church. They had a Pathfinder program, which I don't it wasn't the Pathfinders that I was used to, because we had Pathfinders in Guam and it was like a pretty robust Pathfinder club, but they just embraced me and loved me, and these were like teams that were embracing me and loving me, which is, I feel like, isn't super normal, I don't know. So it was just an amazing experience, um, to be around them and be loved and not be.
Speaker 2:So I finally told my mom that I wasn't getting enough to eat, and so my parents did fly me back home to where they were now living, which was Oklahoma. They had moved from the time that I was away from West Virginia to Oklahoma, and my dad drove out to California to pick up my husband at the time and bring him back, because our vehicle wasn't working anymore, and so shortly after I arrived back in oklahoma, I gave birth to kayla, and when kayla's dad came back he slept for a month, because he is. He was like operating on no sleep because of the meth so like would he wake up to eat something?
Speaker 1:how do you do that you can't hibernate? Yeah, I mean. Okay, I, I know what you mean, but I'm like all the time I I don't.
Speaker 2:I mean yeah, I mean he would wake up, I think, to eat.
Speaker 1:I don't remember it exactly, I just remember you just know he was out of out of it for about a month mercy yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:And so he was like recovering from all this meth use while I was recovering from giving birth. So, um, I had never really returned to school after I aged out of mms. But I decided to go back to high school and finish after I had given birth to Kayla and there was an alternative high school for young parents and they had an early head start daycare at the school Emerson is what it's called, but it's in Oklahoma City. So I enrolled and I started working on finishing my diploma. And Kayla's dad didn't stay long in Oklahoma. He moved to Wisconsin and he convinced me to go live with him at this self-supporting ministry called Country Life Ministries in Portage, wisconsin. This ministry had a construction company and they had houses on this property for the staff, and so I decided to. You know I was trying to make things work, work out things in the marriage, you know, in our marriage, um. So I went to. I had done some schoolwork at the alternative school and I went to the high school there, um, in Portage, to enroll. They really didn't want me to enroll. I remember the advisor told me just get your GED. Um, but I was determined because I hadn't. I had this idea in my head that I was going to become a doctor so I could support myself and my daughter and I was thinking that I would probably need to have a high school diploma and I would need to have a good GPA and all this stuff. So I enrolled in the school and I found a home daycare for Kayla to go to and I was like on public assistance and stuff like that. So I just hammered out all these classes that I, what you know, didn't take at the other five, five other schools I had been to and I did end up graduating from that school, portage High.
Speaker 2:But while I was going to school, things really escalated again with my husband. At the time he was struggling with addiction to drugs, you know back into that and he had also become really aggressive and began throwing things when he was angry. And when I was at the school at Emerson, the alternative school in Oklahoma, I remember they had taught a class on intimate partner violence. It was kind of like, yeah, it was really. It was really they were ahead of their time, I feel like. But super helpful class, and so I knew that it would only get worse.
Speaker 2:So after like a few incidents, he had dropped me off at school one day and I just walked in the principal's office and I asked them to call the police and so I made a report. They went to the construction site where he was at. They arrested him. He happened to have a pill in his pocket Percocet or oxycodone or something that he didn't have a prescription for, of course, when they arrested him. So I think that gave my story credibility in their eyes, even though obviously they're two separate issues. Um, and so they did, um, take that seriously, like, take my report, my report, seriously. And I also applied for a restraining order, got that, and the people at the self-supporting ministry weren't happy with me but to their credit, they did drive me back and forth that last month of high school to school, because he had decided to take away the car so I couldn't go, you know. So I wouldn't be able to finish or whatever. I don't know if that was the reason, but he didn't want me to have the car.
Speaker 2:So when I graduated, my parents came and they helped me pack up and transport me back to Oklahoma and I had been accepted to OU, university of Oklahoma, and I was going to major in microbiology, and that year I really had a difficult time deciding what to do about my marriage. I just didn't see how we could survive and how I was going to be ever going to be able to live with him because of the violence, because of his he. He wasn't making any steps to deal with the addiction that he was struggling with and and my, my dad was really encouraging me to get a divorce and I was. I was like, oh man, but I'm not supposed to.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like reading the Bible and kind of trying to figure out what do I do? Like I don't know if I should divorce this person, you know, but I didn't have an idea of like how God could deliver him or anything like that. So I was, I decided, I went ahead and decided to get divorced. Um, and I mean, he didn't want to get divorced, but I just felt like, well, what am I going to do? I can't, you know, I can't keep going in and out, back and forth and anyway. So I ended up getting um full custody of my daughter by default, because he never showed up for the divorce court hearing. My dad really wanted me to go to an Adventist college.
Speaker 1:Where's your other daughter at this point?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my parents had been raising her, and so when I moved back to Oklahoma, she was there and I got to be around her. What was that like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was really hard. Um, I had a hard time with it for sure, because my parents, you know, I think I wanted to be her parent still, and my parents wanted to be her parent, and so that may have I mean, that may have factored in into them wanting me to go to union. But he I think my dad had this idea like, oh, you're going to meet, you know, a man there. You know, like as many people probably can relate to, their parents sent them to Adventist college wanting them to meet somebody, get married.
Speaker 1:What year was this when you were going to head to Union?
Speaker 2:So this was 2006. You had, I think maybe just graduated or something like that, but you were still there at the college like kids started working. I think they're yeah, uh.
Speaker 1:January of 2006 I met natalie, and spring of 2006 I started working as an intern for the enrollment department okay, yeah, so so this was the fall of 2006, 2006, yeah so we didn't go to school together.
Speaker 2:Well, you were there, I don't know. I didn't know if you were in school or not. I didn't really pay attention to that.
Speaker 1:So how did you guys pick Union? I don't know. This is just for my interest, for people who don't know what that is, don't worry about it.
Speaker 2:We actually did go to Southwestern and toured that. And then we got, we got a tour and they talked about it and they talked about housing for me, because obviously I was going to be a off campus student with being a single mom and there was just like nothing available at Southwestern Plus. I just wasn't into it at Southwestern Like. I was just like, eh, and then we went to union. I'm like, oh yeah, this is where I want to be, like. I was just like, and then we went to union. I'm like, oh yeah, this is where I want to be. I don't know. It was just like they had housing too, so that was like a big factor so you, you came to union.
Speaker 2:You were living in the apartments yes what was that experience like yeah, I think it was a little bit. It first, Excuse me, At first I made quite a few friends and there was actually a lot of those people were seniors, I think I can't remember, but I was just. I think it was just really overwhelming because, being a single mom and attending college full time and I had all these like things that I hadn't dealt with. You know from my, I had all these like things that I hadn't dealt with. You know from my, what would what?
Speaker 1:would you tell people about yourself? Would you give them like a lot of your backstory? I didn't really know, you're just like Teresa here at school, biology major. And there's this. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, Let people know about yourself.
Speaker 2:I mean not a whole lot. I think I just told them like enough that helped it make sense, you know, like editing out different things that weren't pertinent or necessary for them to know. So but pretty quickly on um, linda Becker.
Speaker 1:Shout out to Linda Becker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she told me to go see Dr Brown, who was like the psychologist on campus, and I did and he, yeah, I saw him every week for four years, so that was really a blessing to me. Um, yeah, um, but it was really overwhelming. Um, I was working part-time and then going to classes full-time and trying to take care of my daughter, and sometimes I had to bring my daughter to with me to class. Like it wasn't a lot, but, like you know, something happens, like with the daycare or whatever. I still had to go to class. I try to occupy her as best as best I can, trying to take notes, and then sometimes I had to take her to labs on the weekends, try to finish my biology labs. It was just a lot.
Speaker 1:I couldn't finish a biology lab if I had someone there to help me. And you have a kid there. Lord, have mercy.
Speaker 2:It was hard. Yeah, it was a rough time. There was actually another single mom going to school there and so we became good friends and we hung out a lot. But I decided to change my major to social work and I found the content really interesting and so I became involved with like some advocacy things like end the death penalty through the NESW chapter, and anyway.
Speaker 2:I remember one time I went to a meeting at the Capitol and there was a woman there that was talking about how she was a psychotherapist in private practice and how she could work, make enough money, like work 20 hours, you know, make enough money to be available to her family. And so I decided at that point that that's what I was going to do, cause I was like concerned about being available to my daughter. You know, I I knew that med school would take up all my time, like trying to get into med school, doing med school, then being a doctor. I just like this is not, you know, I'm not going to be available for her, um so um, I think during this time I didn't, I I thought about God, but I was so busy, I was kind of overwhelmed with the cares of this world, and then I would have negative thoughts sometimes about just the church and it was very distrustful of people.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, just because of my experience and yeah, I'm like why would you put any trust in any of these people?
Speaker 2:like no, I know, that's why when, when.
Speaker 1:The third commandment, I think, is to uh to not take the Lord's name in vain. What it means is to not carry the name of the Lord and do evil things. Right. So, like Miracle Meadows, I don't know anything about it, but it sounds like it destroyed the image of God in people's minds. That's why it's a sin. He says this I will not forgive To do evil. In God's name, Mercy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, getting me angry. Yeah, yeah, the. I remember the joiners. I don't know if you knew the joiners.
Speaker 1:Jeff and Judy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, shout out to them. They were. They really took me and Kayla under their wings and loved on us and just made us feel part of their family. We spent a lot of time over there at their house on the weekends how old is kayla?
Speaker 1:at this point, she's just one, two years old.
Speaker 2:She was like two. Well, let's see, yeah she, she was at three at this point. Three, yeah, really young.
Speaker 1:It's hard to have a toddler. Oh my gosh. I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and I remember what I? I was trying to figure some stuff out with God because I, when I was in Lincoln, I met with the pastor of this church that was. It was an off pastor of this church, that was. It was an off campus church and I was expressing a lot of anger and frustration about God and I remember the pastor said to me Teresa, god has to earn your trust. And it seemed almost like blasphemy that he said that, but it did sort of quiet my anger and I think I thought, okay, he's going to show me who he is.
Speaker 1:And so there were, and I think- Do you remember the name of that pastor?
Speaker 2:Oh man, so he was the pastor of the African American church. African American church Um, I don't remember his name, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:It wasn't Michael Kelly or Furman Ford.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's who was Michael Kelly. That's who it was. Yeah, and there were so many miracles of God's provision while I was in Lincoln. He really showed me that he was my provider there. I mean, yeah, it blew me away. When I graduated, I moved to Walla Walla where I was attending graduate school.
Speaker 1:And just for our purposes of the podcast, you and I had never had a conversation. We never had a conversation. We never had a conversation, right?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't remember, but I I remember that that we we may have had a conversation just in passing, but it wasn't like a full conversation.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think so and and uh, from the results of these conversations, you're like I don't like that dude what you acted in such a way?
Speaker 2:how did?
Speaker 1:I act. Tell me, I want to okay.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I should say I don't want to hurt your feelings no, my, my feelings, feelings aren't lord okay, okay, but you're, you just seemed.
Speaker 2:You came off really like full of yourself and arrogant really so I was like, oh, don't want nothing to do with that, dude, you know so I was really judge judgmental, though, and really afraid of everyone well, you probably judged wisely because I probably was those things okay so, yeah, while I, while I was at walla walla university, I remember feeling a lot of anger still, um bradshaw was the pastor of the walla university church and there was this time or there was this one sabbath, someone else was preaching like he was gone, and they preached the sermon about how homes where there's one parent are broken homes and, oh man, that was like I just felt like a knife in my heart. I like ran out of the church and I was crying and was shaking with anger.
Speaker 2:I was so hurt and devastated by what that pastor was saying, or preacher was saying and it was and it wasn't the only time I would hear that, but he was really positioning me, my single parent family, as shameful and he described us as broken and I remember being so upset and thinking what am I supposed to do with that? You know, um with that. You know, I graduated from Walla Walla and moved back to Oklahoma City. My and my eldest daughter, christiana, was still living with my parents being raised by them.
Speaker 2:I moved in with my parents and I started working at a community mental health center which was just down the street from where my parents lived, and that job was grueling. I ended up working there seven years and I sometimes wonder how on earth I did it. Only by the grace of God. But um, but not too long after I moved back, my parents moved to Indiana and they took Christiana with them. So I was living in their house for a little while before they sold it and after they had left, and then I had started attending Edmond SDA Church and I would go to church inconsistently, do you?
Speaker 1:know the Mundende family. Then did you yeah, yeah lombe was still there.
Speaker 2:Um, sometimes I think she was coming on like on holidays and stuff, because I think she was in school at that time because she's younger than me, so I think she was going to union when I was attending there and I wouldn't go out of my way to go to like Sabbath school, like the Bible study class before church. But one morning I felt this urgency and I felt Holy Spirit say you need to go to, you know you need to get there to South school, and I was like okay, okay, and I was like rushing. I arrived late but there was this man whom I've never seen before and I thought I knew everybody in Oklahoma City.
Speaker 3:It's not like a huge community. And there was this instant attraction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like who is this? Yeah, there was this instant. Yeah, I was like who is this? Yeah, there was this instant attraction. He had this shoulder length curly hair, green eyes and yeah, I was, I was attracted to him.
Speaker 1:So was he really kind to animals?
Speaker 2:you're jumping ahead, oh sorry sorry, that's like the only thing I know of your story yeah sorry, spoiler alert yeah, I hadn't really officially dated anyone since my divorce in 2006 and now it was 2012, um, but while I was attending union, I had had, like I had some, some men that were interested but I hadn't really got. I mean, I had gotten myself in some situations, shifts, but you know, they were either weren't serious or wasn't really ready or, you know, ready for a relationship or really attracted to them. Um, and my ex-husband and I had also hooked up a few times since our divorce. Um thought of me and what I could give them in that I could offer, like in what I could offer, and I was very codependent and I think some of that came from the sense of my value adding up to something that I was doing right or something coming from me.
Speaker 2:Um, so, anyway, to make a long story short, fast forward. Jeffrey and I start talking. We um that's my husband now but we start talking and, um, pretty, pretty quickly, I I became pretty focused on him. I would say like, especially when we're dating, I made him my god. I even remember writing a card where I called him my king, which I was just in love and totally infatuated and and this is a good guy it's like the first good guy.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, he's a good guy. He is for sure precious, precious sweet good guy and so, like your track record of of it, I I don't want to call them not good guys, but from the story so far, right, I know they're not a plus.
Speaker 2:And now, you need this and so yeah, and I'm physically attracted to him and and yeah, and he's so sweet and kind and so yeah, um, but after we were married it was because we did get married just gonna skip ahead. But um, after we got married it was so rough. When you get married you have like two family cultures and backgrounds and we had enough differences and like ways of living and doing things that you know they collided and we didn't really have the communication skills and habits to navigate those differences and there was a lot of misunderstandings.
Speaker 1:I can't relate to any of this. I'm sure no one listening knows what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Right, and plus, you know he had been married before, so he had baggage from you know his previous marriage and then what, how it ended, and I did too.
Speaker 2:So there were a lot of misunderstandings and like disruptions in the relationship, um, but I think, um, I would say that I, I became so activated at times because I was completely ruled by shame, fear, hurt, anger, basically by my feelings, right, I would isolate myself when I was upset because I think I got the idea that if I, you know, did something wrong or if I showed too much emotion or if I was too much, that Jeffrey would leave me and I was just being overwhelmed by like the feeling of shame and I would go into hiding Um, and so I would feel I would cry in my closet and I've just cried to God and because I did have this sense that Holy Spirit wasn't, wouldn't reject me, um, and I did get the sense that he saw me.
Speaker 2:And I think the silver lining of growing up in a really religious environment is I had memorized a lot of Bible verses, I knew a lot of hymns, and Holy Spirit would bring some of these to my mind as I was struggling. I also knew a lot of stories, obviously from the Bible, the Old Testament, and he would remind me of those and comfort me. I think in that way. But this consistent emotional pain just kept me searching and meanwhile, I think my identity was wrapped up in my work as a therapist and also my relationship with Jeffrey. I was obsessed with this idea of perfect sheet, perfecting our relationship, and of course I knew all the things that we needed to do because I was a therapist and I. If he would just listen to me, we could just have the best relationship ever if people would just listen to us I know I just don't.
Speaker 1:They only have three problems they don't listen, they don't listen, they don't listen right, right.
Speaker 2:So this line of thinking really just caused resentment because I felt like I was doing all the hard work to make the relationship work and run smoothly. And, oh man, I was so angry with Jeffrey. So much of the time he just, oh, oh, poor guy, he got the grunt of just so much anger. Um, because I had difficulty, huge difficulty, trusting men, um, and I don't know why I thought I, oh, I, I would believe that there was this.
Speaker 2:Like that he had this ulterior nefarious motive for everything he did. And he would be like why do you think I'm trying to make your life harder? Like, why would I do that?
Speaker 2:And you know, and yeah, it was pretty awful. Um, I think you know I did get some of the. Well, let me back up for a second. So about a year after Jeffrey and I got married, my mom was diagnosed with cancer and I was in denial for most of her treatment. She was in stage three. So I thought, well, she can get treatment and then she'll recover. There was one point where she was in the hospital for six months and I think I don't remember exactly because, again, I was trying not to think about it, but a good portion of it she was in ICU. I never went to visit and when she was in the hospital I was like really just wrapped up in work. When she was in the hospital I was like really just wrapped up in work.
Speaker 2:Again, my identity came from being a therapist and I I wasn't realizing how work addicted I was and how my poor bound, how poor my boundaries were with the clinic where I worked. When she um got out of the hospital and seemed to recover, I was just like, oh yeah, she'll get better, just like I thought. And then she, she got really sick and one week my dad called and my sister called and they were telling me. I think it's time you should probably come here to Indiana, um, and it's so hard to think about, but I was like, well, I can't just leave, because my clients need me, the clinic needs me. Oh, richard, I caught the call that my mom had died while I was at work and I'd never gone to see her. And it's not like I was estranged from my mom. I love my mom, you know, um, but here I was at work and she mom. I love my mom, you know, but here I was at work and she had died in a hospital like several states away. That was so devastating and such a huge wake up call for me. Losing my mom was so hard, and even more so because I felt I hadn't been there for her, and so I think I felt a lot of guilt and shame about that too.
Speaker 2:I got into Ignatian spirituality for a while. Like I met with a spiritual director for a year. This was after she had passed away, but I did feel like I was led not to continue in that because there was an opportunity for me to actually become a spiritual director. And as I looked into St Ignatius and Ignatian spirituality, I saw some problems with it and I did do a spiritual retreat one year where I was just by myself for the whole weekend in a cabin in the woods at this Catholic retreat center. It was about an hour away from my house and I really did feel the presence of the Holy Spirit during that first retreat and I had a feeling of peace and joy, even though ever since I was a teenager, I had a really difficult time reading the Bible.
Speaker 2:I would start reading and I would become angry and upset and I would have a physical reaction in my body. And obviously part of that had to do with my time at MMS, but I think part of it had to do with the youth pastor and what he'd shown me in the Bible. Not just about, because he showed me about, like, showed me these verses about women being silent in church and obviously took that out of context, but he also showed me Judges 19, where the woman is like basically gang raped and then cut into pieces. I was horrible, yeah, and I felt like what the message I was receiving? And I don't know if this was his intention, but the message I was receiving was that God hates women because, like, why would? Why is the Bible even talking about this, you know.
Speaker 2:But this problem of not being able to read the word of God really kept me limited and I will say, holy Spirit did still continue to minister to me through my experiences, like through what I was learning as a counselor, through nature, through other books, but I was afraid to read the word of God, um, uh, yeah.
Speaker 2:So when the pandemic hit, we just stopped going to church, I stopped paying tithe. That wasn't reading my Bible, wasn't really spending time in a secret place, but I would journal to God, like I would write prayers to God and stuff. So, um, some things happened, um, at uh in you know to people that I knew. That really shook me to my core. I had this friend that I looked up to and admired, who was heavily involved in church and who I'd known for years. At this point that did something that I could have never have imagined her doing. I identified with her so much that I had a thought that kept haunting me that what if I you know that could be me, like I could do these things, these unthinkable things. And my husband and I actually went to therapy over this because we were both like devastated.
Speaker 1:Just involving like some kind of cheating?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there was this restlessness in me over this because I kept hearing this lie in my head that, oh, that's, I could easily do that, you know, like that could be me, like why, you know, I just I could easily do that, you know, like that could be me, like why, you know, I just I was so upset and at this time I started talking more with Sarah TJ's wife and she had just finished reading through the Bible that previous year and I felt the Holy Spirit tell me to read the Bible.
Speaker 2:So I began reading the Bible in January 2023, and I was reading through and following, along with this, the Bible recap podcast, which Sarah had told me about, and God really started healing me of my fear and anger toward him and also the word of God. Like I was, I spent six months reading that was last year and I got through some of the most difficult books in the Bible and I thought, oh, okay, maybe that wasn't. That wasn't quite as bad as what I had blown up in my mind. You know, um, and I had gotten involved with a project for the conference, and so the conference president, elder Shires, had gotten to know me a little bit through that work, and one day he randomly sent me this death to life podcast episode and it was shanna's episode. I started listening to it and you'd never heard of anything, about no nothing nothing.
Speaker 2:I was like what is this? You know Nothing. I was like what is this, you know? Like this is random, like what is he sending me? And I was, so I did start listening to it, not right away, but like Holy Spirit kept bringing it back to my mind Like hey, you should listen to this. So I did start listening to it.
Speaker 1:And I was like what am I?
Speaker 2:listening to. What was your impression first?
Speaker 1:listen First listen, hold on, I'm telling you, I'm excited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like what am I listening to? When I heard the music come on, like the intro song, I'm just like what is this? And then I heard your voice and you say your name and I was like, wait, what? I was thinking this cannot be the same guy, but it sure sounded like Richard Young from Union College. And when I listened to Shanna's episode, I heard her say the things she was, and I heard her say the things she was saying and the emotion that she was expressing and I thought there's something I'm missing here. And I searched for your episode shortly afterwards, cause I was like I got to know if this is the same guy, what, what is going on? You know, it's just like what is happening. And I listened to that, to yours, and I realized, wow, it is the same guy and he has changed and that, to me, was amazing.
Speaker 2:That was a testimony right there no offense I love you, richard I I then I then listened to tyler's episode and I heard on both of your episodes and you know your episode and tyler's episode. I heard you talking about this guy, dan muller. So I'm like goodness I got to listen to this guy and so I went and looked him up, started listening to some of his sermons on YouTube, and Dan was saying some wild things Like guilt says I'm forgiven. Condemnation says my life is worthy to be judged, shame says it's still who I am. So I was really taking that in and thinking so I don't have to feel like I'm never enough.
Speaker 2:I don't have to grovel and feel bad about myself all the time. And that same week that I started listening to Dan Muller, I read through all of Paul's letters in three days and I was like the whole Bible makes sense now. The cross suddenly made sense. I was like, oh, this is why people go on and on about what Jesus did for them. This is why we celebrate, you know, his sacrifice. Like I had no concept of like why that was important, and I mean except for like, yeah, okay, I knew that he made it possible for us to have eternal life, yeah, and I had a relationship with God.
Speaker 2:I felt in the Holy spirit, but I never understood Jesus, which is, I think, not usually people's Spirit. But I never understood Jesus, which is, I think, not usually people's experience. But so then, after I heard, started listening to some of that. I went to some of the Bible studies and I started listening to people in there and I was just like what was your impression of the Bible studies?
Speaker 1:Was it a wild world that you'd entered, or was it like, oh, this is just kind of cool.
Speaker 2:No, it was pretty wild. I was like what, what is this? You know, I never kind of experienced something quite like what you guys do.
Speaker 1:And it's just the stuff we're saying, or is it just like how open it is? I don't know, I mean, I'm so I've taken the red pill, so I can't unsee it, and so it feels very normal, I know it's the whole thing.
Speaker 2:I mean, everything was new. It was like everything is like I'm like, oh wow, I, I don't know it's just, I was just absorbing it. It was so long it was. Yeah, it was pretty amazing. Actually I was really excited. But there was a time, you know, I was still learning some of this stuff, like I was still absorbing it.
Speaker 1:Because I was like not sure still. How many Bible studies did you go to before you started asking questions?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good question.
Speaker 1:Because you always ask really like good questions out and you don't take like the easy answer, even if I I don't know if I try to give the easy answer, but you're going for it and um, yeah, how long until you got comfortable to start asking those questions I think pretty, pretty quickly, pretty early on, because, because I was, I it's like, even though I'm not, I'm more of an.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes I'm more of an introvert, like I don't necessarily like to put myself out there, but I just have this like burning inside Like I need to know, I have to know, you know what, the answer to these questions that I've had inside for so long. That that's why there's this intensity sometimes behind me when I ask a question. It's I've thought about this question for years, so it's like I need to know. No, don't just give me like a pat answer Like I need to know why.
Speaker 1:What were the questions that were coming up? As you're, you started listening to Dan, started listening to the podcast. Now you're on, the Bible says what? What were questions that were popping up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so a lot of it was about the law, of course, um, but also Holy spirit, um, just like what happens, how we die, just all of that you know. Um, well, and one other thing I didn't really talk about this, but like before, in before I started reading the Bible, or like while I was reading the Bible, my, my daughter had my daughter was a senior in high school, like she's now 20 years old, my youngest daughter and, um, she had gone through this horrible experience and was struggling, and we always had a rule in our house that, you, she couldn't work on sabbath, and we came to head over that. You know, we butted heads over that. And when she turned 18, she decided that she was just going to start working on Sabbath.
Speaker 2:And I was just really struggling to figure out what to do and I felt so much condemnation, like I felt like all this pressure and I felt like that I had to make her obey, or I was going to be like Eli and I was going to have my. My daughter was going to be like Hoffman, phineas, you know, and it was just horrible. And so I would be in the secret place really crying and saying, god, what do I do? What do I do? I was so focused on what I do, you know, and I just had a wrong picture because I didn't understand the gospel. I had this really misguided picture of who God was because you, I mean, I knew God was love and I I knew. But it's not the same when you don't understand the gospel. You don't really understand how loving God is until you understand the gospel and how you're free from the law in the sense that you obey the spirit.
Speaker 1:now, In the sense that you obey the spirit. Now you know, and the spirit guides you, not the letter of the law. So tell me about how, seeing that you were separated from the law, how did how did that hit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so OK. So there was a period of time when you were doing Instagram lives, and it's been a while now, but you posted them for a short period of time on your page and I remember I went to one of them and I watched it over and over again. I wrote down every single word you said verbatim, and so I was like really watching it because I was trying to get it.
Speaker 1:You know no.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry yeah no, but you were. Everything you said was like it was gospel fire, so. But one of the things that you said in the Instagram live was we don't live by written code, and when you said this you were sort of jumped back in your chair and had with this look of surprise, like and I was like being funny yeah, and I was so mad.
Speaker 2:I said to myself now you're just making things up, like you're just clowning around or whatever. And but then later, like that week, I was reading romans 7 and I read that verse because I didn't understand that you were like repeating a Bible verse and I was so shocked I was like what, what? Like I? I just I can't take this, you know. And yeah, so, and there was another time when I asked a question and I think it was about the law and I was like pressing you and I was just like really intense about the question.
Speaker 2:And then you went into this thing where you said are you a Seventh-day Adventist? And you're like, because we get weird about the fourth commandment, and you went into this thing about the fourth commandment and when I got off that Bible study I was bawling because that's exactly what it was about. I felt like I had to sacrifice my daughter to keep the Sabbath, like that it was. Oh, it was horrible I was. It was oppressive. So I knew that the law was oppressive in that way, um, and I didn't understand. I lost sight of like how the law is really about love, right, but you know love, I don't know it's just how do I say this? I don't know. It's just how do I say this?
Speaker 1:I lost sight of the relationship because I was so focused on the rules. Yeah, I always say that if you're keeping the Sabbath because of the commandments, you don't understand the Sabbath.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah. So that was the crazy thing. Like once I started to understand the gospel, I realized that the Sabbath is a celebration of the gospel and that the way in which I was relating to it was like completely opposite of what it was there for. And yeah, I I think when I learned all this I had some frustration because I was thinking how can I not know this before now? I was baptized 30 years ago and I did ask Holy Spirit and he started pointing things out to me, bringing to mind memories.
Speaker 2:One thing I never understood was that as a kid, we would have worship in our home on Friday nights and my mom would play the piano and we would all sing from the hymnal and I had a favorite hymn and my parents seemed so confused about why this was my favorite hymn and I didn't even understand why I always picked this song. But the hymn was 523. My faith has found a resting place. And when Holy Spirit brought that to my mind, I was just so moved because I realized that he had been trying to show me from the very beginning about the gospel. And I know that the theology isn't perfect in that hymn, but the theme was there, like faith, rest gospel. And I heard you say that a lot of people complain about the amount of death on the podcast, but I was thinking about this before when.
Speaker 2:I was getting ready to share my story on here, my testimony. And if we died, since we've died and baptism is our burial, then sharing our testimonies like we do on the death to life podcast, is like a memorial service to the old self, because when someone dies, their memorial service is for the living, not the dead. The metaphor does break down, but because we obviously aren't sad about the death of the old person that was dead in sin and trespasses, but we have a godly grief about what we were in and that's what we're processing here and I think now I have real purpose. I always struggle to know what my purpose was before. My purpose is to be in communion with God and to receive from him and pour into others from the overflow of what he's given me in Jesus, and I get to live from this place of freedom, forgiveness, love and walk in newness of life. And I have this amazing experience of a deep and awesome relationship with Holy Spirit, comforts me and teaches me and just loves on me, and that is the best news.
Speaker 1:Was there ever a moment where you're like because if you listen to the death of life podcast, sometimes a lot of the times there's this moment where there's this realization where, like, I'm free did it ever happen like that for you, or has it just been like you've been growing in this and you're like, well, I guess I'm free, like free, like I believe the gospel, I am free from and dead to sin he has? How did that work for you? Cause I don't think we've ever had like a come to Jesus thing on either the Bible study or internet church or anything like that with you. I'm just like, oh, who is this person? Oh, she's funny. Oh, she's making fun of me. Oh, she's got deep questions, deep questions. Oh, and then I met you a few weeks ago and, um, no, it's just been a blessing, but have you had this where you're like convicted like this is who I am?
Speaker 2:yeah, so it was sort of at least.
Speaker 2:There's at least two different points that I really I experienced freedom. One was when I was listening to Dan Muller and uh, for the first time, and then when you said what you said about the written code and then I read it in the Bible, then I was like whoa, you know, but this is like a lot to realize. So I think it was like there were probably several points, but those are the two that I remember, just like, wow, I'm three, and I actually had this feeling too of like it was just like a burden, like in Pilgrim's Progress, you know where the Christian is at, christian is at the cross and the burden that he's been carrying just like rolls off of him. I never understood what that meant, like in reality, like I it was. It was like it was all theoretical, but now I really know what that feels like and what it is. And, yeah, god is so amazing because he set us free and so many people like it's sad that so many people don't have this and I didn't have it for so long.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm going to take a real quick break from the episode and I'm going to bring on my brother, Gary. Gary, how long have you been rocking with the gospel?
Speaker 4:It's been actually a year ago this month, April, April. It was kind of last April a year ago. It's been kind of a slow process, but here we are ago.
Speaker 1:It's been kind of a slow process, but here we are. What is this message, this truth of freedom from sin, done in?
Speaker 4:changing the way you live. Well, in a lot of ways it's saved my wife and I our life, because we ran into some issues about a year ago that were devastating to us as a family, and if we didn't know what our identity is in Christ and who he is, I don't know where we'd be today.
Speaker 1:Mercy. You have dedicated time, energy, finances. I see you all over the Bible studies To move this message forward. You want people to understand freedom from sin. Why is this so important to you? To move this message forward. You want people to understand freedom from sin.
Speaker 4:Why is this so important to you Because I think you grow from that. If you realize who you are in Christ and you're free from sin, that you are righteous, you are his child, then your life changes, Just like the prophet's son. He came home and his life changed because of who his father was.
Speaker 1:So that's why it's critical to me. Man, I'm excited we're about to record a podcast episode. I'm excited to hear it, and if you're listening and you want this message to get out there, and if this is one of your first episodes, this is what we're about. We want the message that you are free from and dead to sin in Christ Jesus to reach the whole world. If you want to partner with us, you can go to loverealityorg slash give, and every dollar that you give goes towards this message getting out there. We feel so strongly that this message will change people's lives, and so that's what we're about. So, once again, loverealityorg slash give and, like I said, every dollar goes towards getting this out there. As you're considering. I mean, you had said some heavy stuff your story is quite sad and I was just listening to Dan yesterday.
Speaker 1:There's just this 35-minute clip of him on a podcast that just came out. Actually, floyd sent it to me and I was listening to it and it's so powerful Because he's talking about how we don't need to be afraid of our thoughts or memories anymore. It's like because memories used to trigger this thing, but now our memories are seen through truth and so the memories like we're not afraid of a memory popping up, or we're not afraid of a thought popping up because now we're seeing it through the lens of Jesus Christ. And as you're telling your story and you're thinking about all of this and you're talking about you know that it was hard for your husband because you were putting a lot of stuff on him.
Speaker 1:And as you look back and as you're thinking about what has actually changed. You know, so much of the time we don't even. We're like we just get excited about the life part and we don't even talk about what's changed. How is you walking this out Like what is changed in how you're viewing your story, viewing the world, viewing your husband, viewing your, your youngest daughter and your oldest daughter. How has that changed?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when you had asked me to tell my story, I did sort of spiral, because there was, I realized, and this was like a couple weekends ago actually, where I was so upset I was like how can I possibly tell my story? Because I was, I knew, I think what I figured out was that I was having some unforgiveness towards some of the people in my story. And my husband actually pointed out to me because I was talking to him and crying and I was like I don't know if I can do this. And I reached out to a friend of mine and she said you don't have to provide your own forgiveness, just like you don't have to provide your own love and your own salvation, and, um, that in Jesus we have forgiveness. And so I was meditating on what Jesus said on the cross and I had this.
Speaker 2:I this was probably the third point at which I was meditating on what Jesus said on the cross and I had this. This was probably the third point in which I was like experienced even more freedom, because I started praying and thanking God, saying thank you, lord, for the forgiveness you've already provided. Like I don't have to come up with this myself, like I don't have to come up with this myself and, as I was, I just continued to thank God for that. And then the next day I woke up and I just felt completely at peace and no anger, no unforgiveness. And so I think, what you know, it's not that Holy Spirit is continuing to show me things that I need to confess and repent, and so it's not like I've, like completely arrived or anything like that, but just that, as as he shows me things and I surrender those, I experienced, like this, more and more freedom.
Speaker 1:It's not like God has ignored our sin, but he sees our sin through what Jesus has done, condemned it in his own body. So it's not like you have forgotten your story, that you weren't in Indonesia, that you weren't at Miracle Meadows, that you weren't at all of these places, and all of these things happened. You're just seeing them through the cross, that they have been condemned in the body of Jesus Christ, that you have been released from them and that they have no say in how you get to live your life. They're not scary anymore because you're seeing them through the lens of Jesus's death, burial and resurrection right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's this opportunity that I never realized for this deep intimacy with God. For this deep intimacy with God Because before I didn't realize how much access I had to God, I thought there was always a distance right, like if you're sinful and God can't be in the presence of sin, like how are you ever going to be close to God. But then when I realized, oh, I have the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit lives in me, like I have this connection, that is so amazing and the whole different realm of freedom opens up to you, because you are now, I am now connected in a way that I never realized.
Speaker 1:That I, yeah, that I had access to wow, where is, uh, where is the darkest night of the soul? Where are we going back to? If you, let me ask you this, if you, I'm usually I pick it but if you could pick the place, because you know your story and you know where it was the darkest, whether it was with the ibuprofen, whether it's with this confused girl thrown up on the plane. If you could jump back in the DeLorean and go to encourage yourself somewhere, where would you pick?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I would pick when I was in boarding school, after my daughter, my eldest daughter, was born, and I think I would tell myself that God does keep his promises and he will restore to me the years that the locusts have eaten, years that the locusts have eaten, and what I realized, like when I came into freedom, is that, or when I understood that I was free, that in that instant God has restored the locusts, like the gospel, is the restoration of the years that the locusts have eaten, of the years that the locusts have eaten, because, and honestly, like the reality of my life now, like what he has done, I'm super close with both my daughters and he I know he has had a hand in that, like he has, you know, given me so much more than I could ever ask for or imagine.
Speaker 1:And that just keeps getting better. Praise the Lord. He loves us so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you for telling your story, thank you for having me, man, after hearing that, I just think about this, this woman who believes that she's broken because she's in a broken home and she walks out of that church service. And if that's where you're at, if you're hearing this and you're thinking this is my story, your lineage does not go back to Adam, it goes to Jesus Christ, and this prayer is for you, father. Thank you that you put me into Jesus and I am in him and he is in me, and that I am full and filled in him. A house with full rooms, a town with full houses that is who I am in your son, jesus. I thank you that you did this and that I have it now and that I just get to believe. And so, no matter my past, no matter my story, you've made me a royal priesthood and I accept it. Thank you for doing it In Jesus' name.
Speaker 1:I want to remind you about Wednesday mornings at 9.30 Central. That's when we do the Made New Bible Study and it's awesome, it's my fave If you have a job, that you're sitting at a desk and you have headphones in. I mean, why wouldn't you get some gospel? So come join us Wednesday mornings, 9.30. Central. Love y'all, appreciate, y'all, appreciate y'all. Bye.