Have you ever felt your spiritual journey shaped by tradition? Our guest, Gary, has experienced this firsthand with roots in both Adventist and Mormon backgrounds. This episode explores his faith journey, marked by personal loss and a quest for a deeper Christianity free from rigid doctrines. His story includes the loss of a friend, insights from teachers like Graham Maxwell, and a shift from strict Adventism in Southern California to a broader understanding of God's grace. Gary's work with Hope House reflects his commitment to sharing a message of hope and finding peace in God's plan. Join us as we explore a story of spiritual growth where faith is lived with authenticity.
0:00 - Generational Faith Journey in Southern California
9:28 - Childhood Experiences in Conservative Adventist Culture
14:30 - School Experience and Manson Encounter
20:16 - Life Changes and Spiritual Growth
27:40 - From Hawaii to Faith
40:33 - Journey of Faith and Transformation
48:36 - Transformation Through the Gospel
1:02:02 - Growing in Faith and Community
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📷 FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/riyoung31/
📚 LEARN more at our site: lovereality.org
Looking for discipleship and fellowship? Join a Circle at lovereality.org/circles
Have you ever felt your spiritual journey shaped by tradition? Our guest, Gary, has experienced this firsthand with roots in both Adventist and Mormon backgrounds. This episode explores his faith journey, marked by personal loss and a quest for a deeper Christianity free from rigid doctrines. His story includes the loss of a friend, insights from teachers like Graham Maxwell, and a shift from strict Adventism in Southern California to a broader understanding of God's grace. Gary's work with Hope House reflects his commitment to sharing a message of hope and finding peace in God's plan. Join us as we explore a story of spiritual growth where faith is lived with authenticity.
0:00 - Generational Faith Journey in Southern California
9:28 - Childhood Experiences in Conservative Adventist Culture
14:30 - School Experience and Manson Encounter
20:16 - Life Changes and Spiritual Growth
27:40 - From Hawaii to Faith
40:33 - Journey of Faith and Transformation
48:36 - Transformation Through the Gospel
1:02:02 - Growing in Faith and Community
💰 DONATE & SUPPORT our Ministry: lovereality.org/give
👍 LIKE us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alovereality
📷 FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/riyoung31/
📚 LEARN more at our site: lovereality.org
Looking for discipleship and fellowship? Join a Circle at lovereality.org/circles
The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
Speaker 2:My daughter-in-law had talked about a church which she went to in Kailua and she said it's really good, and so I went to that church and I ran into Eddie Cornejo and he was very kind, but then I sat down and Jayla came over and she just sat herself down.
Speaker 3:You know how Jayla is.
Speaker 2:And she just started in with me. How are you doing? What's going on, you know, and praying with me. And I'm used to the happy Sabbath syndrome.
Speaker 3:And you know how it is. You go to a church, hey how are you Happy Sabbath?
Speaker 2:blah, blah, blah blah. But she was for real and I just came home from that experience going that's something different. That church is different. The people there are different than anybody I've ever experienced before. It's a different atmosphere.
Speaker 1:Yo, welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young and today's episode is with my brother, gary, and Gary is such a blessing in my life. I met him a couple months ago in Loma Linda. We had lunch together. We haven't had as many baby boomers and he is a baby boomer I'm not clowning on him on the podcast, hearing his story and the history. It was so just beautiful to see how God is patient, how God is merciful, how God is kind, and that he's growing us and teaching us, and so I think you're going to love this episode from Gary, who has a lifetime of knowledge, a lifetime of wisdom, and yet is still growing in truth and walking in it. So this is, gary, a buckle up trap in love. Y'all appreciate, y'all All right. So I met you. When was it? When was I out there in California? Was it in February, january? I?
Speaker 2:think it was more recent than that, wasn't it? When was I out there in California? Was it in February, january? I think it was more recent than that, wasn't it? You were in Orange County, yeah, I think it was the end of February or early March. It was probably February. That sounds about right.
Speaker 1:But I have seen you on the Bible studies and I wanted to know where it all started. We started talking about it a little bit, but when it comes to your spiritual life and when it comes to you, you know and who the picture of God was. Where does that start in your mind as you go back?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's different than a lot of people. For me it goes way back to the 1800s even. Okay, on my mom's side of the family she was from Michigan and my great-great-grandparents were friends of the Whites Ellen and James White. In fact they built a room on the side of their house for them to stay in, for them to stay in, and there's a story in the old book Footsteps of the Pioneers that talks about that. So I have a long Adventist history on that side of the family.
Speaker 2:And then on my dad's side of the family, he was born in Richmond, virginia, and the family is largely from Texas and Oklahoma. In fact, my grandma came into Oklahoma in a covered wagon and lived in a sod house. My grandma came into Oklahoma in a covered wagon and lived in a sod house. And then just recently I found out that I had Mormon background. I had done this whole study on the LDS and the Adventist denominations and their common rites and a lot of the common themes. In the process of doing that I found out that I had, on my dad's maternal side of the family, had a lady who came across in hand cards from the Mormon days from Iowa to Salt Lake City. In fact, our visitors were grave just a couple of weeks ago. So I kind of have a mixed background in terms of religion and spiritual things Adventist, long history and Mormon also.
Speaker 1:Wow. So when you came along, your parents were entrenched in the Adventist church.
Speaker 2:Yes, they were entrenched in the Adventist church. I was born in Glendale, California, and eventually moved to Simi Valley, California. Born in Glendale, California, eventually moved to Simi Valley, California, and my dad was a head elder in the church and he was the chief of staff at Adventist Hospital there in Simi Valley when it first opened up.
Speaker 2:So yes, I was born and bred and raised Adventist from the very beginning and I had three older half-brothers. My dad was a physician in World War II and his wife was killed in a car accident in Helena Montana and left him with three little kids, like two, three and four type thing and eventually he moved out to California and met my mom. She was a nurse. They got married and, lo and behold, I came along. I was next to the youngest, so there were six kids and I was number five. And, by the way, I've got to mention that I was a diehard Rams, dodgers and Lakers fan growing up.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I was also a Tigers fan because my mom was from Michigan and I went to Tigers games back there during the summer so I'd go back and help my grandpa and so I had a third favorite team. That was the Dodgers, the Tigers and anybody playing the Yankees.
Speaker 1:I feel similarly about the Yankees. I can't say I'm a Tigers fan.
Speaker 2:Well, you know.
Speaker 1:We can't all be perfect, right. So you're growing up in Simi Valley. Were all your five brothers and sisters in the house with you.
Speaker 2:No, because they were older. The youngest of my older brothers two of us out of the three have passed away, one just recently and the oldest, my older half-brothers. He was 10 years older than I am, so even when I was 10, he was gone. So my first memories when I can really remember much about them they were already out of the house, but they had a big influence on me. None of them followed the denomination or the religion or whatever you want to call it, and I uh I mean, I love my older brothers, but they did have an influence on me just because they were older than I was and I looked up to them. Uh, not always positive, but I don't blame them.
Speaker 1:So you, uh, I'm guessing here, I'm thinking you're. You're probably maybe around my parents' age, or probably a little bit younger, maybe around my parents age, or probably a little bit younger.
Speaker 2:I'm 73. I'll be 74 next month.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're a tad bit older than my folks, so you grew up 60s, early 60s, mid 60s is when you're a teenager.
Speaker 2:That's right. And, like they say, if you can remember the 60s, you probably weren't really there. Okay.
Speaker 1:And I bet your experience of the 60s was different than so many like. If you look at American culture and what the 60s were, because you're growing up in probably a strict religious background, describe to me the church of the 60s in Southern California, the church of the 60s in Southern California.
Speaker 2:Well, southern California, I think, was always seen as kind of being more of a liberal bastion, if you want to use that word, than other places. My parents and I we went to a fairly conservative Adventist church. But you know, you're still subject to the culture at the time. I mean I remember when Kennedy was shot. Still subject to the culture at the time, I mean I remember when Kennedy was shot. In fact I was in seventh grade, attending Adventist school, and I was in the boy's bathroom doing what little boys do in the bathroom, at the stall, and the guy next to me he goes hey, gary, I go, what Did you hear? The printer got shot. And I went to the printer because I knew that there was a print shop down at the bottom of the school and a guy was a printer there and he said the printer got shot. Well, come to find out, the printer had heard that President Kennedy had been shot.
Speaker 2:So I experienced that. I experienced the Cuban Missile Crisis. In fact we had an air raid siren right down at the end of our street where I lived. It would go off once a month and we used to be told to hide underneath our desk in case of an atomic war and that if you saw a flash, you know you're supposed to stick your head down underneath the desk and if you saw a flash, don't look at the flash. And I remember even thinking then well, that's kind of ridiculous, because if there's an atomic bomb that close then I'm a goner. So I experienced a lot of those things anyway, even though I was raised within a more of a conservative Adventist culture.
Speaker 1:What was the main thrust of preaching? I mean, you're a kid at this time, maybe towards the end of the 60s, early 70s. You're hearing what was preached from the pulpit and like what you were growing up into.
Speaker 2:Well, the thing that I remember the most and stuck in my mind it kind of is that you better get right with God today because if not, your name may come up in the heavenly sanctuary in the judgment and you're a goner. If your name comes up today, what's going to happen to you. And I remember that pretty distinctly, and back in the 60s it really was about rules and regulations. I mean, I went to academy, I went to elementary school and if you lived up to these things, you behaved the way they wanted you to behave, then you are considered a good kid. If you didn't, then you know you could count on getting in trouble and going to the principal's office and doing that kind of thing. So I can't say that there was a whole lot of Christ love. I didn't really experience getting to know what it was like to have a God who loves you until I ended up going to college and Morris Denden was the principal or the pastor at the college that I went to my last couple of years.
Speaker 1:So, as you're experiencing this, what did this make you think about who God was and like, yeah, who is God to you?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I believe that God loved me because that's what I was told, that God loved me. But the problem I was having is I saw very little modeling of that, so I didn't know on a practical basis, what did it really mean that God loved you? God loved you as long as you were doing these things, you know, as long as you weren't watching TV on Sabbath, as long as you didn't go swimming when you were told not to go swimming, as long as your hair was cut short, as long as you didn't wear jeans to school. You only wore slacks. I mean, that was kind of the impression I had. Now, whether that was right or wrong, that's how I walked away from it, with having that feeling that God was happy with me if I was doing all these things. The problem is I couldn't do those things. I would try every once in a while and just go well, that's a waste of time. It's either me or God, so I must be the problem.
Speaker 2:So that was the overall impression that I had impression that I had.
Speaker 1:What is it about God and swimming according to us? What is so bad about swimming? Because that's the common when we talk about this stuff from Sabbath schools like now, people talk about how we used to think about swimming. Do you remember why swimming was such a big deal?
Speaker 2:I have no idea. I got to tell you kind of a funny story. We had a swimming pool out behind our house where I lived in Simi Valley, and my mom told me now don't go swimming, because I guess it's the Sabbath and you're not supposed to have fun, I don't know. And so one day I'm out there swimming and my parents were gone. Well, my mom comes home, she goes Gary Dale, that was my middle name she goes why were you swimming? And I said well, the devil made me do it. She goes well, why didn't you just tell him to get behind you? I said I didn't. He pushed me in. Well, she wasn't real happy, but you know, I have no idea.
Speaker 2:We'd go out to the Colorado River with a youth group and you could float on your inner tube down the river, but you weren't supposed to get in and swim. So of course we would conveniently find reasons to tip the inner tube over and, you know, go swimming trying to catch the inner tube to crawl back on. So you know, I don't know. I look back on it and I just go no wonder we've got so many distorted views. That happened in that period of time there must have been something written about swimming.
Speaker 1:That I'm sure if we said, I'd be like oh okay, I get it now. There's something about that. So where did you go to academy?
Speaker 2:My first year I went to San Fernando Valley.
Speaker 2:Academy Because Sydney Valley was just a remote area, there was a small school bus that would take you over to San Fernando. I went there my freshman year and we came back and most of us ended up going to Newberry Park Academy, but it was a boarding school and I was a day student. So you know, I made friends there because I was a day student and of course you had a car and if they wanted to sneak off campus then you were their first go-to. So you know, hey, let's go to the hamburger joiner, let's go do this. And so they liked us because we had cars. Um, I should mention, just from a history standpoint, that when I went to san fernando the little bus, we used to go over an old stagecoach road that had been paid and we drive by this place. That was a movie ranch. It was called spawn ranch.
Speaker 1:There were all these old yeah, do you know anything about there's like there looks like there's this interesting family there with long, long hair and a guy singing weird folk songs and they're handing out lsd that's right, his name was charlie manson, and so I saw charlie manson.
Speaker 2:I just didn't realize who he was, and then later, on.
Speaker 1:You think you actually had a visual on Charles Manson.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, there's no doubt in my mind. I did. And later on, when I was in college I think my sophomore year of college I had a girlfriend. We went to see a movie over at the All-Star Inferno. On the way back, she goes Spawn Ranch is right up there. And I go no, it's not, I know exactly where it's at. And she goes, my mom said, and I said, no, I'll show it to you. So, lo and behold, I drive into Spahn Ranch.
Speaker 2:Now, by then Charlie had been arrested, and all this is day, and we're driving by and I'm pointing out the buildings and all of a sudden some guy jumps on our car and he starts trying to hit us with a stick, you know, with a big board, and I'm in a little VW bug and I'm trying to make that thing go. And I turn around and I look and I'm telling you, the guy looked just like Charlie Manson at least in my mind he did, and I was so petrified. Well, we managed to get out of there. But so I don't know, I don't he couldn't have been Charlie, because I think he was in jail at the time.
Speaker 1:But I had my Charlie Manson experience you're like get, get that hippie off of my, my hood.
Speaker 2:I was kind of dressed like a hippie, but he didn't want anything to do with me.
Speaker 1:I can tell you that Now, if we're talking about what's right up my alley, anything, charles Manson, uh what? My wife, my sister and my brother-in-law, uh, one time we went all the way up to Cielo Drive, all the way up to where we thought the driveway was, and if you don't know what we're talking about, don't worry about it, don't even look into it. But I'd read Helter Skelter, I'd read all of these things and so we wanted to see where it happened. We haven't been to the LaBianca home, but I would love to go see Spawn Ranch and see. I know it would creep me out a little bit, but that's something I bet a lot of people do up in that North Hollywood North. What is that? Is the Simi Valley? Yeah, it's between Simi.
Speaker 2:Valley and San Fernando Valley, so the mountains up there. But actually Spawn Ranch burned down and it brushed fire. But just before it burned, and I didn't know at the time, some friends and I were driving by and they had a big sign on the original sign that said spawn ranch, out in front of the ranch, and they said, hey, let's go grab it. You know, go steal it off the the signpost. Well, I knew what my experience was before, you know, with with charlie's followers or whatever that was. I I was hesitant to do it. Now, looking back on it, I have to admit I kind of wished I did, because it probably would have been worth a lot of money.
Speaker 1:You could have sold it on eBay, but anyway, we didn't do it. So you went to college, you went to PUC.
Speaker 2:Well, I bounced around, I went to a lot of colleges. I went to five colleges in five years.
Speaker 1:Where's the one Morris Vendon was at?
Speaker 2:At Pacific Union College. That's the last school I went to. That's actually the one I graduated from. I went there for two years. I started out at Andrews. I should say that I never got kicked out of a school. I knew enough to reapply, though I bounced around. I went to public school. I went to avian school. I was just trying to figure out who I was in life. I started out getting really bad grades and one day I kind of woke up and went. You know what I've got to turn my life around in terms of school, and so I went from probably about a 2.0 or 1.9 GPA to by the time I graduated. It took a lot of work. I was well up into the threes, but that's a long road to come back from.
Speaker 1:So you end up, you're trying to figure out who you are. As many you know, young men, teenagers, are in that point in their life. You end up at PUC and you hear Morris Vendon preaching. What is Morris Vendon preaching about at this time when you show up to PUC?
Speaker 2:Well, the biggest thing I remember well, first off, his preaching style. He was very kind of laid back but he had a dry sense of humor and so that's kind of who I was. I had a dry sense of humor, so I appreciate that. But the biggest thing with Morris Vendon was that he talked about a relationship with God, that it wasn't trying to become better, but that if you had a relationship with God and loved Him and fell in love with Him, that that would change who you are. So that's the thing that stuck in my mind and that was kind of a building block.
Speaker 2:My growth in the gospel was really kind of like building a house you start with a foundation, different layers come along. One thing I should mention that made a big difference to me is I was actually attending public school and this was before I went to PUC. My best friend for quite a few years going through high school and into early college years was the pastor's son and he and I got along. He was a good-looking young guy that you know. He was real strong. He was a good mountain climber. We used to do a lot of backpacking together, but the big thing we did was bike riding on bicycles. You know the long distance high-end bikes at the time.
Speaker 3:And so that's what he and I did.
Speaker 2:One day we did well over 100 miles and every week we'd ride to work and ride after school, and I had a couple of friends that I would do that with. And one day I came home and this was when I was in public school and I walked in the door, my brother was on the phone.
Speaker 2:Well, my friend had gotten killed in a head-on collision with a car going over in that old path road right near Charlie Manton's Ranch. He was coming around a corner. You know I wasn't there so I can't say what happened. Well, I was supposed to have been with him that day and so we just didn't meet up. I went to a house where he was supposed to be and he had left a little bit beforehand and I decided I wasn't going to try and catch up with him, so I would probably have been in the same shape as he was, and probably both, because we would draft behind each other, probably would both been hit.
Speaker 2:And that really that really shook me up. I mean, I, I had to sit down and look at my life and go, okay, what are you doing? And it was then that I applied to puc and barely got in because of my past record and they said, well're going to have to live in the village, you can't live in the dorm.
Speaker 3:That was good for me, because living in the dorm.
Speaker 2:I was always headed for trouble, so that's when I went to PUC was after that. That began a change in my life.
Speaker 1:So headed for trouble in what way? Like you're a kid who wants to love God, but just there's stuff in life going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I wanted to love God because I was told you were supposed to. It wasn't that I was a bad kid, though. I began to get into pot when I was in high school. I mean, I remember one day this guy comes to me my friend who got killed, and he said hey, I went flying yesterday.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm thinking he went flying in an airplane and my dad was a pilot. He had a small airplane, and so that's what I thought they were talking about. And I go oh really, Where'd you fly to? Well, he was talking about getting loaded is what he was talking about. So I ended up kind of falling in with that group.
Speaker 1:I mean, I never did the hard hard stuff, but for quite a few years it was something I just did on a regular basis.
Speaker 2:So how did you feel about that? You know, I don't know, it's just the group I was with. It's what I did. I didn't really. I wouldn't have smoked it if I didn't like it, but on the other hand, I really couldn't like it. I didn't like it in a lot of ways. I remember there were nights when I'd go home and I'd go I'm so sick and tired of this I would take a lid, you know, which had marijuana in it and throw it out of the orange grove.
Speaker 2:Go, I'm not having anything more to do with this. The next afternoon I'm out there trying to find out where I threw it to. So for me it was the group I fell in with. There were just a few kids my age at the Simi Valley Church that I went to. I mean, there were a bunch of kids there, but my age there weren't very many, and that's just who we were, and so I didn't. To me it was kind of like that's what kids did at that age, because and that's even the kids that we knew didn't go to avenue school. They were kind of the same way, so you know, I, it was just what we did.
Speaker 1:I don't know how so if you were going to be in the dorm you thought I'm going to probably run into more kind of this kind of trouble.
Speaker 2:Yes, and well, and part of it was I did my own thing anyway when I lived in the village, but I applied myself. I mean I would party on Friday nights and Saturday we'd go to the beach or whatever at Northern California, but on Saturday nights I would study and on Sunday I worked for the school. And so I actually began to apply myself and it was a good experience. I'm glad that I was in the village, even though I didn't really turn my life around. I think if I'd been in the dorm I would have attracted more attention than I wanted to attract in terms of getting myself into trouble. So I got through PC and I was grateful I'd go ride my bike down to Pope Valley, and so it was a good experience.
Speaker 1:So the thing that you're believing? You believe God loves you as long as you are living and obedient to the commandments and to the statutes and however you're supposed to live according to the Sabbath. You get to PUC and you start hearing this brother preach about relationship. Do you remember if you were surprised at what you were hearing or if this was like this is different than I thought it was more?
Speaker 2:different than what I thought and I really began to give attention to it. I remember distinctly living in this apartment off campus in Angwin and I was studying as I would do on Saturday nights and I looked at the lamp in my room there in the apartment and I looked at it and I saw the light. The bulb was on and I went. Shouldn't that be how Christianity is, that Christ lives in us? The electricity lives in through the bulb and then it shines out through us, and that was almost like a revelation to me.
Speaker 2:I went oh, that's how it ought to be. Rather than me trying to live up to all these things, it ought to simply be Christ living through me, and did you know that Galatians 220 existed when you were thinking that?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't, you know, because I did very little scripture reading. It was just more of what was jammed down me and I wished I had. And I had a chance. Actually, that summer Somebody came to me and they said hey, you want to go to Ireland with a missionary team. We're going to go over there and talk to people about Jesus. And they didn't know what I was wrapped up in. I remember seriously thinking about it and I probably should have done it in hindsight because it would have made a difference to me. But I didn't do it and I went back down to the Sydney Valley for the summer and really reconnected and kind of fell back into the crowd that I'd hung out with.
Speaker 2:But God is patient. That's the one thing I've discovered. If I can say anything is that God is so patient and he just works with us, works with us, works with us, and he knows where we're at and he's gentle with us and he brings us along as we're able to come along. And when I look back over my life, that's what he did and I'm so grateful for that. I remember going outside when I was a kid in high school and I would be out back behind our place and I would look up at the stars. And here I am, halfway loaded and I would talk to God. I'd have a prayer with him, looking up at the stars, and my prayer was don't give up on me. I'd say please don't give up on me, even though I was doing life not the way it should have been done.
Speaker 3:And I believe.
Speaker 2:God answered that prayer.
Speaker 1:He's never given up on me. So what happened next? As you were moving forward?
Speaker 2:Well, I graduated from college with a communications degree. I was pretty delusional. I thought, oh, I'm going to send out resumes and I'm going to hear back from 15 different companies and I'll have to choose two or three, you know, to go interview with. Well, yeah, I heard back from two or three people and basically it was hey, thanks for writing this. So I ended up.
Speaker 2:I went to Hawaii. My dad said hey, if I ever have any kids who get through college without getting married, I'll send you to Hawaii as a gift, and I was the first one. So I did that. And after Hawaii I went, and then I came back and went back to Massachusetts. I have some good friends of mine in Massachusetts that I had gotten to know at PUC. I did that, and then I came back and I got a job in the business department at the Simi Valley Hospital. So I went from having worked there washing dishes before it ever opened, when I was still in or just out of elementary school, to now working in the business department, and that's where I ended up meeting my wife, kathy.
Speaker 1:So your degree is in communications. You're working in the business office, just kind of like an entry-level position. Crunching numbers for the finance team Yep that's what I did.
Speaker 2:And then they had this medical malpractice crisis back then in the mid-70s, 74, whatever where all of a sudden insurance rates went way up on the docs and they just said you know what we're not going to practice mid 70, 74, whatever where all of a sudden the insurance rates went way up on the docs and they just said you know what we're not going to practice, so we're going to cut way back on our practices. And it obviously impacted the hospital. And one day they come into me and they go we're having to let you go because of this medical malpractice crisis. So they let me go. And about a week later my wife, who was the secretary in the maintenance department they let her go. So I thought, well, what am I going to do? So I went back up to Angwin and looked around up there, went back down and talked to Kathy. She and I had only gone together for a short period of time. We got together in December, got married in August, so it wasn't very long.
Speaker 2:And I remember when I first met her was in the hospital cafeteria and I walked in and she was sitting down by herself at her table. She was good looking and so I have to admit, that's what attracted me off the bat and I said hey, can I sit with you for lunch? And she goes sure. So I start eating. And I remember when I was eating, to this very day, I was eating a baked potato with succotash on top of it, and I had finished eating, I had completely cleaned off my plate and then I was getting ready to get up and go. She looks up and she goes oh, by the way, I don't date people that don't clean off their plate. And I went what?
Speaker 3:It was like an eye-opening for me.
Speaker 2:Well, I come to find out she came from a food deprived family and came so she wasn't trolling you, she wasn't messing with you, she was being serious no, she was being dead serious and, uh, I'd never read anybody like that.
Speaker 2:And come to find out her because of her family background. It was quite a bit different than mine. She was non-Adventist. My family was very quiet Adventist in terms of yeah, my dad had positions, my mom did, but my parents never argued. I don't ever remember my parents arguing once before me and they had their other methods. I came to find out later and so I came from a family that was very clothed in a lot of ways. I remember my mom telling me hey, you know, don't ever lie, but you don't have to tell the truth and don't talk about the family outside the family. It wasn't because it was a bad family, but that was just their practice.
Speaker 2:She came from a dysfunctional family. In fact she'd make a great story sometime, if ever, on the podcast. And we were different ethnicities. I was part German, part Irish. She was a more Pacific Islander, part Hawaiian, filipino, caucasian. And her family background even though she wasn't out of practicing Catholic, her family had been practicing Catholics and she used to attend mass and stuff when she could go see her grandfather. So we were about as far apart as you could possibly be in terms of ethnicity, how your family was, those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:And yet here we are getting ready to celebrate our 50th anniversary a year from this August.
Speaker 1:Wow, praise the Lord. And so after you lose your job, you guys aren't married at this time, or you were about to be married. No, we didn't know. It was kind of a case.
Speaker 2:I remember calling her one time it's kind of the first time I asked her to ever do anything. I mean we dated, went off and on, did stuff. But I called her and I asked her. I said it was my last paycheck and I was up in Northern California and I got a hold of her and said, hey, would you go pick up my paycheck? And then I thought what am I doing, asking somebody else to go get my paycheck? But I did and we sat down and we talked and I said you know, I'm going to go to Northern California, I'm leaving Simi Valley. You don't have a job. It's kind of like, if we're going to stay together, I'm not going to do a long distance romance because they just don't. Work is always my opinion. And I said it's either get married or not get married and just go our separate ways. And she said well, do you want to live together? And I said no, I did want to live together because I didn't want to.
Speaker 2:I never argued with my parents. Not once in my life did I ever argue with my parents. My friend that got killed. He used to argue. His dad was a pastor and, oh my goodness, they would get into Donny Brooks together, but I just didn't. My parents asked me to do something, I didn't. I didn't cause those kinds of problems with my parents, I just went out and did what I was going to do and so long and the short of it was, we decided to get married, got married in Oakhurst, california, outside with the cows in the background, and we had a family ranch up there and I remember I was swimming in the river, the Fresno River in Oakhurst. About an hour before I got married somebody had to come down and reminded me I needed to get ready to go out and get married. So it was kind of different. But I really come to respect her over a period of time and her judgment and those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:That is a wild story. So where did you guys? You moved to Northern California.
Speaker 2:We moved to Angwin for a short period of time, then ended up moving to Fresno. I went back to school, started working on a master's degree. I did a lot of menial jobs because I found out a communications degree didn't mean all that much in terms of I had done nothing in college to make connections with people in that kind of a field, which is what I should have done. So I did a number of menial jobs, eventually got on with the welfare department in Fresno as an intake worker and then from there I became an underwriter and a marketing rep with an insurance company, became a VP of marketing and life began to change. We started going to church in Fresno what was called Fresno Asian Church, because that's just where we felt comfortable in her background and went from there. So, in fact, one time I was asked to be on a radio program, a call-in radio program for religious questions, and we set the questions up, sometimes with callers, to make sure we got some from people calling in, and so that was the start of it.
Speaker 2:I was asked to do Bible studies. I was still not didn't really understand the gospel. I was trying and I knew what to say and I knew what to preach about when I was asked to preach, but I really didn't get it. And I remember doing a Bible study. One time I remember we were at this couple's home and I went through the I think they had like little videos or something like that to follow along with, and at the end of the day I walked out at the end of the hour and I thought there wasn't a connection. And about a week later they called me and said you know, we don't think we're going to do Bible studies anymore. And I learned a lot. I learned that I really didn't know those people and that's what I needed to do was know those people, who they were, what they were going through in life, not just to throw religion at them. In fact, a few months later they got divorced, so that had an impact upon me.
Speaker 2:I thought something's wrong here.
Speaker 1:So if I were to go hear you preach a sermon, what were you preaching about?
Speaker 2:Well, I was preaching about relationship with Christ and about what was the way to live a life. I was on a radio program with a good friend of mine. In fact he actually turned me on to the first book that really began to explain the gospel to me. So I had elements of it, but I didn't realize how it worked on a day-to-day basis. I don't think I ever did. I always wondered okay, here's how they say it's supposed to work. But it doesn't seem to work very well, if I'm honest with myself, and I just didn't get it.
Speaker 2:So, I would say the right things, but there was no spirit, there's no power behind it. I don't think People would say, oh, thank you, and then move on. You know they shake your hand, walk out the door and that's the end of that.
Speaker 1:So what is this book that your buddy put you on?
Speaker 2:Well, he and I were separated for quite a few years and I walked into church one time and it was really an act of God. The Friday night before I went to church, my wife was working as a nurse and I remember thinking, man, this religion thing is just not working. I got down on my knees and I told God. I said you know, I don't know what to believe. I don't know what to believe in regards to religions or those kinds of things. I don't know what to believe in regards to religions or those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:The only two things that I believe in and I'm convicted of is that there is a God, he's a God of love, and that he came in the form of Jesus Christ, the person of Jesus Christ. And I told God that night. I said that's it, that's all I really believe in. The rest of it's all up for grabs. The next day I walked into church and, coincidentally, this guy was preaching there, even though he didn't live there, and afterwards he and I got to chatting together and he said are you tired? And I said do you mean spiritually? And he goes yes, I go, yeah, I'm tired. And he gave me a little book called the Saving Life of Christ by a British gentleman who was actually a major in the British Army called Ian Thomas, and I read that through and it's almost as if a light bulb went on. I went oh.
Speaker 2:And it really talked about the life of Christ in us and that it was Christ living his life through us. That was the first inkling I really had, beyond what I'd heard from Morris Bender about the gospel.
Speaker 1:So the saving life of Christ is pretty much the gospel. Like you've died, you were resurrected.
Speaker 2:Now he's living his life through you, right the illustration he would use is that you have a glove, the hand in the glove. The hand does the work putting a liquid in a glass. The glass doesn't have anything. You are a dwelling place for God, and that's why we existed, that's why we were created. It's his life through us, and for me, that was revolutionary. I don't think I'd ever heard it. I may have heard it, but it didn't take. So I don't know whether I'd heard it or never heard it, but I just know that it was the first time I really became aware of it.
Speaker 1:So, as you keep going, that's a beautiful truth to grab onto, what happened next?
Speaker 2:Well, I had building blocks from a religious standpoint. I mean, you know, we got married, we ended up moving around some. I mean, you know, we got married, we ended up moving around some. I got jobs. We had two sons that we're proud of and daughters-in-law and grandkids that we're proud of. One of them lives up in Spokane, the other's in the military over in Hawaii, which is where I ended up running into Love Reality and from there I was given. I heard about a guy named Graham Maxwell and I listened to some of his CDs and then I began to read some of his books and listened to pineknollsorg, and this is Arthur Maxwell's son.
Speaker 2:That's right, graham Maxwell was the professor of religion at the medical school All medical students, at least at that time I don't know about today, but they would take a class in religion and he taught that class and at first I wondered about him, but I began to realize that the whole controversy between good and evil really it's about God's character. That was the first lie that occurred in heaven was God's character, and he talked about how we can have assurance and how the real battle is over. What do we believe about God, what do we believe about his character and what do we believe about how he governs the universe? So that was the next book that came along that I read and it came to understand. And he has a book out now called Conversations About God and it kind of recaps. He's been gone since 2010. But that really began to change my life. I was teaching at the time, I got into Adventist education, went on to Boise State, got my master's, but I really began to understand more about God at that point.
Speaker 1:Through Graham Maxwell, so you're learning about God. You're a young man, you're now a professional. Isn't it kind of amazing how we look at when we were teenagers and in college and we were just knuckleheads, and then you fast forward maybe a dozen or so years and you're a professional and you're doing this thing and you might have a wife and a couple kids and you're like how did this happen? Like why?
Speaker 2:does anybody? Trust me good thing, the good thing they don't know the inside story Right.
Speaker 1:But if they knew.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:I did not really have much modeling. I mean, my parents were good parents, but I can't say I really had people that modeled Christianity for me my grandfather more than anybody. I mean a real fast story of my grandfather. His name was OV, like OV period Rumsey was his last name, and I remember when I was back there as a kid and he said do not leave that barn door open, because the cows will want to get in and eat the grain and poop everywhere, basically.
Speaker 2:So some friends and I were out there playing in the barn. Sure enough, we must've left it open just a notch. And then I realized my grandfather, we went back to the barn. I realized he's going to be home pretty soon. So, my grandfather, we went back to the barn. I realized he's going to be home pretty soon. So we got out there and we cleaned that barn up. I mean, we made it so. There was no evidence of any cows anywhere. And, sure enough, he pulls up the barn pretty soon. He comes into the farmhouse that we're sitting in with me and my friends my friends and I and he goes, who let the cows in?
Speaker 3:And I go what?
Speaker 2:And I said how did you know he goes? Oh, the barn's way too clean. And that's who he was, I mean. And he never said another word about it. You know, you knew what he meant and he was just a good man. I look forward to seeing him in heaven again.
Speaker 2:And so for me he was probably the real first person that really modeled what it was. You know, a farmer modeled what it was like to be a Christian, what it's like to have a relationship with God. So I just didn't have much modeling when I was growing up. The one teacher that I had in high school that I looked up to it was kind of a lily white high school, to be honest with you. There's one or two black kids. She happened to be a black teacher, mrs Armbruster. She taught business class in Typhie and I took a Typhie class from her, me and this other guy because I figured, hey, the girls were around. It was the one class really. I probably used that class and that skill more than anything else I learned in high school. So I learned to appreciate her and she whatever modeling she did was good for me. And in college I had some teachers that I thought were very good models. I've had some good superintendents in education since then. But growing up I just didn't see people. I looked at them and go. I don't want to be like those folks. I don't understand how it worked.
Speaker 2:I became very cynical in life and early on, I think, going to the Vietnam or seeing the Vietnam War my brother was in Vietnam. I came home one day in high school and my dad, we dropped him off at the airport. He was flying back to Denver. I walked by my sister's room and I looked at her in her room and she's laying on her bed just as wide as a sheet, and I walked in and I realized that she had tried to commit suicide and she had a whole bottle of pills next to her. And so she gets a call. An emergency ambulance shows up.
Speaker 2:She went through all kinds of stuff at UCLA. She ended up going up to Northern California to get more help and that meant my parents left, like every Thursday evening and we didn't come back till late Sunday. Well, you know what that means for a high school kid, and it was party central, let me tell you. And so I just didn't see. Yeah, I had some teachers in Sabbath school when we were teenagers that I respected and I appreciated them, but there was nothing that I saw. That's how I want to be until later in life.
Speaker 1:So, as you're, you're going along. You've got the Graham Maxwell book, you got the Ian Thomas book. You're a family man. You're trying to figure out how to do it, how to live it. What, what do you want to look like? What was the next thing that influenced you?
Speaker 2:Well, I ran into long story short and I know that his views are a little bit different than some other people's. But I started looking at Tim Jennings from Come and Reason Ministry and he talked about how God's law is design law, not judicial legal law like we stamp his design law, not judicial legal law like we stamp you. Forgive it, but his laws are laws. That it's how life works. So God doesn't punish you with cancer and emphysema, let me put it that way. You smoke. There's a natural result to that, and so that changed my view somewhat on God's laws. Then I ran into love reality.
Speaker 1:How did that happen? Tell that story.
Speaker 2:You know, we had a really a year ago, on the 16th of this month, which has just gone by April we're in April right now we had a phone call. Sometimes you get phone calls that can change your life. This one devastated my wife and I. That's all I can say. There's still stuff going on that we can't even I can't get into it, sure, but it just devastated our lives.
Speaker 2:And, coincidentally, I then went over to Hawaii to try and help out some with family and that kind of thing. And when I was there, first off, my daughter-in-law had talked about a church to which she went to in Kailua and she said it's really good, it's a different message, and we have a granddaughter that went to school there, and so I went to that church and I ran into Eddie Cornejo and he was very kind, but then I sat down and Jayla came over a-hole and he was very kind, but then I sat down and Jayla came over and she just sat herself down. You know how Jayla is. I mean there are snow holes in the back. I mean I don't know if she gets visions from God or impressions or something, and she just started in with me. How are you doing? What's going on, you know, and praying with me and I'm used to the happy Sabbath syndrome. You get into administration like you were in Richard and you know how it is.
Speaker 3:You go to a church, hey how are you Happy Sabbath?
Speaker 2:blah, blah, blah blah and you hope you don't have to work all day long and so. But she was for real and I just came home from that experience going that's something different. That church is different. The people there are different than anybody I've ever experienced before. It's a different atmosphere.
Speaker 1:And I came home and told my wife and she went— and it was pretty much just two conversations, just two like one family. I'm sure they didn't break down the whole gospel to you, but they were just kind and listened and they talked to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they began to talk gospel. And then I sent him a point with Jonathan Leonardo. He gave me a book. He was very good about it. He gave me his book Freedom from Sin. And I talked to Jonathan one afternoon or part of an afternoon, I guess it was for a little while, and he gave me his book. And so those conversations. I began to realize there's something different. I begin to realize there's something different.
Speaker 1:Okay, we are going to take a real quick break in this episode and I'm going to bring on my friend who I've known for a long time now, but we haven't really had one of these conversations. Lindy, how are you doing today?
Speaker 3:Good, how are you?
Speaker 1:Richard, I'm super good Question how many years now has it been that you've been rocking with that good, good gospel?
Speaker 3:Four years, four years April 4th April, 4th Okay.
Speaker 3:And what would you say quickly, has the gospel done in changing your life? What hasn't it done? That's a better question. It's just, yeah, it's changed every aspect of me. It's changed how I interact with people. It's changed how I live my life on a daily basis, just because you know, I know that Jesus lives in my heart and he's not going anywhere and, um, just like being alive and and living my life is connecting with him and it's like a constant living out a prayer. You know it's awesome, that is awesome.
Speaker 1:Uh, you've. You've spent time, money, energy to get this message out there. Uh, that we are free from and dead to sin in Christ. Why is that so important to you?
Speaker 3:Because it's everything I mean, it's the reason that we live, is this gospel? Because it gives you purpose, it gives you meaning, it gives you love, constant peace, constant joy. There is no downside to this whatsoever, and it's what makes life worth living for me.
Speaker 1:Every dollar you donate to Love Reality gets this message, either through this podcast, through Internet Church and you can go to wwwloverealityorg slash give and, like I said, every dollar goes to getting either these stories out there, internet Church, what we are doing to move the gospel ahead, and so we would love you, love for you to join with us, and because we just really believe, if we keep preaching the gospel, there's going to be more and more of these stories. So loverealityorg slash give. Hey, lenny, thank you so much. I'm excited because we're about to record your story. Are you excited?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, so excited All right, I came back, I read his book.
Speaker 3:It was a little bit hard for me to understand, to be honest, with you.
Speaker 2:There were parts of it that were real clear. Other parts were well, what's this guy saying? And my wife Kathy said, you know that sounds nice, but she was somewhat dubious of the whole thing. As a principal's wife, you know you get hardened and she's seen the good, the bad and the ugly. That's clearly what Eastwood used to do, and so she had seen it all and she became somewhat hardened to it.
Speaker 2:But she went over there by herself and met Jayla and she came back and she and I, if it had not been for learning the message of love reality it's not really their message, it's just the Word's message, it's the Gospel message. Love reality is nothing more than a tool for God. And if we hadn't learned and grown together this past year in that message about God, I don't know where we'd be, because you know it would have been a difficult road to go. So really, romans 8.28 is true All things work together for good for those who love the Lord. So we have come to the point where this has made a huge difference to us Love reality and God's using of these individuals. And now it's other people I'm beginning to run into other people who see the truth, whether they have any connection to love reality or not.
Speaker 1:Let me take you back just a little bit. What was the first thing that you were like? This is different, like when you talk to Jayla. I don't know if you remember.
Speaker 2:You know this is a year ago or so, what was she saying, or Eddie saying, that made you say, oh, that sounds different than what I've heard before, like some theological concept or an idea of how God deals with his children. Well, I would say with Jayla it was almost more how she was as a person that I recall than any specific thing. She said it just wasn't the happy Sabbath syndrome is what I call it and she was very real. Didn't matter who was around, she prayed with me. She said you know, things that happened weren't our fault. So it was the reality of dealing with somebody like that.
Speaker 2:Then, as I began to study it over and to begin to read it over, I realized things about love, reality. So, for example, you know we are free from sin. Sin doesn't hold power over us anymore. We are righteous. We're righteous and we're sanctified in Christ because of who he is, because we're in Him. It's His righteousness, His sanctification of a horse's nose and he's leading the horse around, always trying to become better. This is who we are as sons and daughters of God, and that made a big difference to me that we're free from sin.
Speaker 1:Did that take a while to land the freedom from sin thing? Or when you saw Romans 6, 7, 6, 11, were you like, oh, this makes sense. Did you have the background with that chapter of the Bible, or did it take a little bit of time?
Speaker 2:Well, I reread Romans 6, and I thought that doesn't really mean what it says. I am in Christ. That part was a little bit hard for me because I was raised always with the idea that quote-unquote sanctification is the work of a lifetime, which I understand really what that means now, but my impression was you've got to work at it. Work at it. You know, yeah, the Holy Spirit's there to help you. Eventually you're going to become good enough, you know. Just hopefully it happens before the Lord returns. I've learned about the secret place His forgiveness of our sins. He's absorbed our sins, the Holy Spirit living in me. The big thing for us after experiencing what we did was that we are not our feelings. Our feelings can be very negative at times. We know that they can come from our past or they can come from the accuser, but our feelings and our circumstances don't dictate who we are. What dictates who we are is the Word, and those ideas, those concepts, have made a huge difference. They've really helped us work through some of the darker moments.
Speaker 1:So, as you're seeing, like you said, your background was the Holy Spirit's going to help you. But sanctification is this process that, through time, some of these sins will fall away, some of these sins will hold on, and, as you're reading Romans 6, 7, for the one who's died has been set free from sin and that you should consider yourself dead to sin and alive to God. That new lens of seeing that as no, this is true, whether or not my experience shows it or my feeling I feel it was that true, whether or not my experience shows it or my feeling I feel it Was that an eye-opening thing for you, because I think it's a lens that we see scripture through. The lens is oh, the Bible says it. So therefore it must be true, because if it comes out from God's mouth, it's true. If my experience doesn't align with what this is saying, then I should question my experience rather than question if the Word of God is true.
Speaker 1:Did you put that lens on pretty quickly, or was that through this last year? Talk to me about putting that lens on Well.
Speaker 2:I put that lens on pretty quickly. But having said that, how you're raised makes a difference and your experience as you go through life makes a difference. It's there, it's part of who you are, and so it seemed kind of contrary to the way I was raised. And then, of course. Then you hear some of the objections that people make about what is the gospel. I don't know whether it's love, reality or not. It's the gospel. I hear objections, I hear people say this and that or the other thing, but it makes such perfect sense.
Speaker 2:And it also gives a sense of peace. And I've seen people's lives changed because of what they've learned about Romans 6, for example. I didn't see those changes in people's lives before. I've seen real hearts. I've seen people who say you know what, if somebody doesn't like the message, that's okay, we don't go where we're not invited. I remember that distinctly, jayla saying that and I'm going. There's something to this.
Speaker 2:Now I couldn't go back to my old way of thinking. If I went back to my old way of thinking, richard, I don't know what would happen. I'd be gone there, just wouldn't be any hope. Because this is what has provided hope.
Speaker 2:And even in times where because everybody's life can have its rough patches but because I am what the word says I am. I'm not what my feelings say I am. I'm not what my circumstances say I am. I'm not what my upbringing may have said I was. So that's made the biggest change in my life. I got it pretty quick, I think, but that's not to say it's not a struggle at times, you know, just trying to understand how that works. But the more that I understand and the more I experience the Holy Spirit living in me and seeing the answers, I can tell you answers to prayer that are just remarkable. And so I can see it. I know it to be true, I know it to be true in my own life and that's pretty much it, and I can't go back. That's all I can say. If I go back, then I don't know what would happen.
Speaker 1:So I feel like your ears are getting tuned to what truth is? Tell me about when you hear somebody preaching one thing and the dog whistle the sound or whatever you hear that you're like no, this can't be, because the gospel is actually this Well, sometimes I hear people.
Speaker 2:In fact, just this last week I went to it. I live in Idaho, in a small town of 2,000 people alongside the Snake River. It's a remote area, quasi-remote anyway, but I went to church more towards Boise and I appreciate the music and it's a different kind of environment. It's more real people, let me put it that way. But I heard a sermon in which something was said or implicated about we're all sinners type approach and I almost felt like saying something. I know where the person's coming from. But I'm much more in tune with if people start talking about how we're just worthless people in the eyes of God or we all need really a lot of help and we we're in deathly trouble and we're sinners. I'm going no, no, we're sons and daughters of God is who we are. We're sons and daughters of God. And it's like the prodigal son. The prodigal son was never not his father's son and the prodigal story is more about the father than it is the son. So when I hear things I realize, oh, in some cases I'll hear things where it's obvious the person knows the truth, the gospel, in other cases not. So you become more attuned to that.
Speaker 2:The one thing that I've struggled with and I wish I had an answer to, is I have found that since I learned the good, good gospel, really begun to understand it and begin to have it lived out in the spirit living through me, that anything other than that quickly becomes—I was not only cynical, but I think I was ADD as a child. I mean, I know I was. And so if I don't hear the gospel, if I'm just hearing the same old repetitive sermon or talk or whatever, again I quickly lose interest. And I don't live in an area where there's a lot of choices of churches. Yes, there are multiple churches, but there's not the variety. There's not a Kailua church, or there's not some of the churches in Colorado or Portland or Riverside area. You just don't have those. And so I go. That's one of the struggles I've got now is what do I do as far as that kind of thing? You know, because I just don't have an interest in the old way of doing things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you and I were talking about this on Facebook the other day this kind of this struggle that we have sometimes when it seems like this message has so much pushback. And where do we go? And you know what? We're called to be salt and light. Right, we're called to flavor wherever we're at. We're called to shine. We're called to be a city on a hill that people would see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven. And if we're in an area that people are open to listening about Jesus, then, man, we'll have a field day because it's so good.
Speaker 1:If they're not open, we don't really go where we're uninvited. We don't feel sorry for ourselves, um, but we, we, we kind of, we kind of chill out in that area because, uh, we're not here to to to debate anybody, uh, or argue anybody into truth, because if a person is convinced against their will, they're of their own opinion still. And so we, uh, we move with discernment, and if anybody's grown in that, it's me obviously like we talk about this all the time. We joke about how, uh, you know, I, uh, I used to go really hard and I still think I go hard in in in the paint some ways, but in other ways I've learned that it's not all on me and I can trust God to do his thing right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with you entirely. The way what I've learned over just the last few months three or four months is okay. God has put you here and wherever God has put you. Whenever people cross your path, that's the people that you help, you love, you honor and you let know about the gospel. And if they're not interested in whatever you're saying, that's okay. You know it may not be the right time for them. We don't go where we're not invited, and so that has helped. So I've changed my philosophy some way.
Speaker 2:I'm still not quite sure what my relationship is with the organized church. I'm still thinking about that. I believe in the basics, but there are other things that I struggle with. So, yes, I agree with what you're saying and I've seen it make a difference and I help out at a place called Hope House in Marzi, which a lot of interdenominational people come to, and there's Mormons who help out there, volunteer there. It's a place for orphans, kids whose their placement in the foster homes failed, and they're orphans, and it's a school that's set up for them. It's Christian-based, so I go down there and help out. It's only a mile and a half away and there's really a good group of volunteers that we work with. There's everything there, from hard-tore evangelicals to myself, to Mormons, to whomever, and I've learned that you know we're all God's children and just to let it be. And if there's a chance to say something, say something, but don't push it, because there's no point in pushing it. You'll just turn people away.
Speaker 1:So, before I let you go, what do you feel like you're growing in the most? Now, as you know, we're a year in and you're you're believing on. No, I am the righteousness of god in christ. I am sanctified, I have been set free. What, what aspect of the good news are you grabbing a hold of and growing in the most?
Speaker 2:of you here right now well, there's things I mentioned, but I would say right now is just remembering who I am in Christ, that in Christ I died, I was buried, I'm resurrected and that I don't have to worry about these other things, that Jesus lives in me and through me I'm a vessel for his indwelling, and I don't have to try and do everything.
Speaker 2:As an administrator, you know, I used to do everything. You know you mop the floor. If you need to mop the floor, you clean the toilet. If you need to clean the toilet, you do whatever needs to be done. And now I realize I don't have to try to do everything that Christ can do it. I don't have to try to do everything that Christ can do it. He'll bring the moments to me when I have a chance to say something about Him and I'm not trying to force anything anymore.
Speaker 2:And I am so happy for my family, the people who love God and have made a difference in my life. You know my grandkids are obviously important to me, and so I'm just happy for people like you, richard, for Eddie, for TJ, for my wife loves the free-to-be podcast and she loves your DTL and so it brings us together. You know it gives us a commonality between my spouse and I as far as what we believe. We wait for the next one to pop up and really it's just been a blessing. So I just feel blessed and I feel like I'm a vessel for Christ and I'm going to leave it at that and just let him do his work through us.
Speaker 1:Praise the Lord, man, where are we going back to? Are we going back to high school, gary? Are we going back to four years different college, gary? If you get to see this kid and the confusion and what he was living in, we're going back to Spahn Ranch, gary. And you get to put your arm around Gary and say, hey, man, let me tell you something about how safe you are in Jesus Christ?
Speaker 2:What would you say to this kid? You know, I would say I used to withdraw from my relationship, whatever relationship I had with God, if I felt like I was messing up in life, whether it was with girls, women or just doing things that I shouldn't have been doing, whether it was with girls, women or, you know, just doing things that I shouldn't have been doing, I would tend to withdraw, and so I might go from trying to have a prayer life to not having a prayer life, to just kind of quasi-hiding from God, and I think I would tell that younger me to you don't need to do that. Just keep talking to God, just keep talking to our Heavenly Father and he will reveal things to you and be brutally honest with Him. If you don't feel good, if you don't feel like talking to God, let Him know. I just don't feel like talking to you today. I don't understand what's going on.
Speaker 2:I don't know why people are the way they are, that you don't have to pretend, that you can be real with God and that he will do things in your life and leave it in His hands, because that's what works.
Speaker 3:And so that's what I would tell my younger me is okay.
Speaker 2:so you mess up. Even if you continue to mess up, you should realize that God continues to love you. That's the basis of who he is, and keep talking to Him and keep asking Him not to give up on you, and he never will.
Speaker 1:Amen, gary, you've been a blessing to me. You've been a minister of the gospel in my life. Whether it's on the Bible studies or when I got a chance to meet you, I can just see that you've been well loved by God and that is flowing out of you to your family, to anyone who's around you. So thank you so much for your faithfulness to his faithfulness, and thank you for sharing your story. Thank you, man. That was powerful, and if you are in that same place that, gary, was where you, where you, just like God, don't leave me, don't forsake me, don't forget about me. Then this prayer is for you, father. Thank you that you will never cast me out, that I'm safe in your arms, that you have reconciled me, that I have nothing to fear, that I have nothing to fear, that you have done this thing through Jesus and that you will never forget about me. Sometimes I have a tough time believing it, but I believe it because you say it, and so this is what I'm praying in Jesus' name Amen.
Speaker 1:I want to recommend the Worthy of Everything podcast with my sister. This is Jadra and Michaela. They are spreading the gospel on the Internet. Lots of great stuff. The Dusty Boys podcast is coming up. Don't trip. Start listening to these episodes in the Love Reality Podcast Network. I think you're going to be super blessed. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Bye.