Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#194 Josh Few's Journey: Transforming Faith Through Understanding the Gospel
Raised in a tapestry of contrasting religious backgrounds, Josh Few's journey is a profound exploration of faith and personal growth. Join us as Josh recounts his unique upbringing within a strict environment and how these experiences shaped his early life. From the impact of his parents' divorce to the challenge of balancing religious obligations with personal beliefs, his story offers a compelling narrative about the transformative power of understanding the gospel.
Listen as he shares his experiences at Union College, where he found a community that allowed him to align educational pursuits with his values. This period was marked by personal growth, meeting his future spouse, and discovering the importance of questioning longstanding traditions in pursuit of a more personal understanding of faith.
As Josh's journey continues into adulthood, he begins to question and reassess his beliefs within a religious context, confronting the fear and liberation that comes with deconstructing long-held convictions. Explore the insights gained from engaging with new perspectives and the teachings, which led to a deeper commitment to understanding the gospel beyond traditional views. This episode encourages embracing spiritual growth and authenticity, highlighting the supportive role of community and continuous learning in fostering a true understanding of grace and gospel truth.
0:00 - Transformation Through Understanding the Gospel
15:08 - Navigating Freedom and Spirituality in College
22:31 - Navigating Faith and Community in Adulthood
33:33 - Questioning Beliefs and Tithing Practice
45:26 - Revelation of Gospel Assurance
58:10 - Understanding the Gospel and Christian Living
1:10:13 - Discovering the Riches of Grace
1:15:57 - Receiving and Growing in Gospel Truth
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
Speaker 2:My assurance of salvation does not include me, other than me accepting the gospel, obviously. But it's not like I accept the gospel and then I have to do things to stay in the good graces of God. It's not about what I do in the good graces of God. It's not about what I do, but it is what I do may be the fruit of having the gospel in the first place. My favorite saying is your works are not the root of the gospel, it's the fruit of the gospel.
Speaker 1:Yo, welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young and today's episode is with my brother, josh. Josh Few is a guy I've known for a little while and his story is just a story of growth, a story of a guy putting pieces together, going through and just seeing the truth of the gospel. And it's cool to hear how it happens in so many different people and to hear Josh's perspective and what opened his eyes is powerful. What opened his eyes is powerful, and also we get into a conversation of what the gospel actually is near the end. So this is Josh Buckle up, strap in Love y'all, appreciate y'all.
Speaker 2:So I actually have to probably start prior to my birth, my parents were an unequally yoked marriage per se, and I will kind of explain that a little bit. So my mom comes from a leadership Adventist family, from a leadership Adventist family. So my grandpa and his dad and probably my great-great-great-grandpa as well, we're all in Adventism and my great-grandpa was one of the traveling evangelists of the denomination. I'll get that out. And so basically to say that my mom's family was pretty, pretty deep in in their, their religion as adventists and, uh, as such.
Speaker 2:Um, there was a lot of dentists and doctors. My grandpa was a dean of students for a while for Loma Linda University and so my mom actually got a degree in dental hygienists and so they went. My uncle was a dentist in Wyoming and so she she went up to practice under him for a little bit, and that's where my dad lived at the time was Glen Rock, wyoming, and his family was not Adventists, didn't really have any religion at all. I think probably his mom brought him to church every you know, for the holidays or you know all the like Easter and Christmas maybe, but other than that they didn't really go to church. And so my dad sees this this girl walking down the street in Glen Rock, wyoming, is like yeah.
Speaker 2:I really want to to get to know her, but instead of like doing it like the normal way, like, hey, you want to go out, no? So my grandpa owned a tow truck company and so they had a bunch of cars, and so my dad, every day, would would like drive by where my mom was walking and eventually got figured out what her address was and said, hey, I sent her flowers and like, hey, can we go on a date? And for you know, probably wouldn't happen today. But my mom was like, sure, let's go out on a date. And of course, the rest is history.
Speaker 2:However, my grandparents, my mom's parents, were like you know, basically told my dad if you want to marry our daughter and you will become, you will become an adventist and get baptized.
Speaker 2:So that that was from the heart, then, from the deepest of his heart, yeah, no he was like well, I gotta, you know, I want to marry this, this woman, so I'm getting baptized as an adventist and so but but being the you know strict Adventist family, like they all, he was taught basically all the strict things. Like you, not only do you not work on Saturday, you do not talk about work on Saturday, yeah, so you know, and you only eat this, like my mom. I mean, he was not a vegetarian and suddenly became a vegetarian overnight. He has since left the faith We'll get into that a little bit later but he's no longer a vegetarian. But he just had all of like, all of the stuff just packed onto him like instantaneously.
Speaker 2:And so I was born into this relatively strict we didn't. It wasn't like. If I look back at my childhood, it's probably not the strictest religious family in Adventism, but we definitely were like you do not do certain things I actually had. Well, once I was born and got to the age of accountability, which I remember, probably six or seven years old, I had special Sabbath toys that I could only play with on Sabbath.
Speaker 1:Were they missionary action figures.
Speaker 2:No, I could actually pick. So, like if I wanted to play with my and they gave me a little bit of leeway, like eventually I could like switch them out every once in a while, you know. So I would pick my cards to play with on Sabbath but I couldn't play with them the rest of the week. You know, because that's you know, I think they were trying to instill, like the you know cause they were. I think they were trying to instill, like the you know, the Sabbath specialness and like we don't do the same things that we do the rest of the week. But uh, nobody else in my my school friend friends, you know they would be out playing after potluck at church on a playground. I wasn't allowed to change my clothes or go play on the playground with them because that was something I did the rest of the week.
Speaker 2:Um so, but as a family like my, my parents were, were very ingrained in in the church, didn't really spend a lot of time together other than at at church. So they, they both had jobs. My mom worked nights, my dad was daytime, and then we would all go as a happy family to church on Saturday, but then my mom was doing Sabbath school, my dad was the head deacon running the soundboard, doing all this other stuff. I mean, we went to church at like 6.30 in the morning on some days to like shovel the sidewalks and, you know, get the church all turned on ready to go for the day. And so I eventually, once I got to be a teenager, I hated it, just that aspect of like. So I more or less rebelled and I was like I'm not going to church anymore. Like this was 13, 14 years old. My parents at that time were already struggling with their marital relationship, so they didn't really care what I did at that point. They're like fine, stay home. You know, my dad would go off into the mountains because we lived in Montana at that time. So my dad would go hiking into the mountains to be with, you know, be with God. And my mom went to church and I stayed home and and watched and did all the things that I wasn't supposed to on set.
Speaker 2:So, but like, eventually, uh, throughout, throughout, throughout my childhood, I had the opportunity to be mentored by other people other than my parents. So like when we had neighbors that were Adventist next to us and it was just a group of ladies and she was like the head elder and they were nurses and so I would go over to their house when my parents were gone and, you know, spend time with them, and they were a little less strict than my parents. So I liked them. They played like board games and, you know, had other things I could play with whatever toys they had that I wanted to play with. So I mean that to say that's kind of the family that I grew to play with. And, um, so I mean that to say that that's kind of the family that I grew up in is it wasn't like Bible bashing, like here's Ellen White stuff, but it was very much like let's follow the book as as closely as possible, without like making, uh, our grandparents mad for being apostate or something.
Speaker 2:But basically my dad got to the point where he left the church because of heresy Mainly and he has explained this to me later. We have talked about it and he's like, yeah, everybody would come up to me and ask me about my job and like how was my week and so? But I wasn't supposed to talk about work on Sabbath and so everybody else was talking about work. So they must, they must not be true Adventists. And then he eventually got to the point where I was like this is, this is, I don't feel free. So he found his own freedom.
Speaker 1:He believes the gospel now as well, but um when he was more conservative, he was more traditional than other people in his mind oh, yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:So he eventually let like my parents. When I was 15, 16 years old I was a junior in high school my parents got a divorce. They had stopped talking to each other. There was other issues too, but I think a lot of it stemmed from them just not being able to spend time with each other because they were always doing something themselves, but part of that was church life. I have come to the conclusion that I would rather spend time with my family than hold positions in the church. That's part of my journey as well, but, based on my childhood upbringing, that's what I saw as a determining factor in why we, like my family, didn't stay together.
Speaker 1:Were you upset with God or upset with the church? Or it seems like the church. It just kind of was a thorn in your side for a while, Not at that time.
Speaker 2:I don't think even today it is. I wouldn't be the person I am today if I didn't have the upbringing that I did and, like I mentioned a bit earlier, I had other people in my life that kind of guided, guided my spiritual journey. Like when my parents got divorced I was already in academy and so I had, like the dean and the chaplain, who at that time was ron halverson jr, um, so he, he taught me a lot about about the gospel, and so I had a lot of that uh aspect it was. It was once I got to academy. It was less about um, like the rules. The rules in academy were a lot less strict than they were at home.
Speaker 2:So I enjoyed going to academy, like, yeah, you have to have a certain like you have to wear a tie and like all that other, you know everything, go to bed at a certain time.
Speaker 2:But like, other than that, like I was actually more free at academy because I was a, a firefighter. There was a fire station just across the the field, so I would, um, I would get called at the middle of the night and I I got permission from, like the principal and everything. They said, yeah, as long as you're going on an emergency call or whatever, then you can leave in the middle of the night which, like a lot of the other students couldn't do because they didn't have a reason to do it. Um, so I had a lot, a lot of freedom and I I had, I had a car at school and, you know, things have gotten stricter as time has gone on, uh, in academies, due to the changing uh world, but uh, at that time, like my, my life was a lot, a lot easier. I had, you know, I could go hang out with my friends when I wanted, I could go to town.
Speaker 1:So academy was fun and college was even better because I was far away from my family. So let me ask you this who was God? How did he look at you? Was he frustrated? Was he happy? What was God like?
Speaker 2:At that point God was still the, the like, if you do certain things like you still have to, you still have to hold to the, the pillar.
Speaker 2:So I I always was concerned with like paying tithe, like that was an important thing to do, like going to church on sabbath, um.
Speaker 2:But he wasn't, like I got to the point where he wasn't like concerned with everything that I did, like it'd be one thing to, you know, find a job that that you're just making, trying to make excuse me, trying to make money on the Sabbath or something. But like, at that point, like if you're a doctor or a medical professional, even a firefighter, like I kind of went into the, the emergency medicine field, emt, firefighter, because you know I was helping people and I could do it on the Sabbath, like, and it wasn't about the money, is that I was only making like five to $7 an hour at that point doing emt stuff, um, but like that that was my outlet to kind of get, get around the, the, the rules a little bit, because I found like, ah, you're supposed, like jesus said, you're supposed to help people on on the sabbath, so so it was still kind of a workspace thought process but I found ways to get around it, if that makes sense Theologically speaking.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you got to Union College. You wanted to go to EMT. How did everything go? How did the plans work out? International rescue relief all the way let's go irr climb the clock tower. If nobody knows that is, don't worry about it. That's an inside uh adventism union college joke, but uh I.
Speaker 2:I live 10 minutes away from it now.
Speaker 1:That's right. You guys moved to Lincoln, so yeah, life was going according to your plan.
Speaker 2:Then, yeah, and you know, as I got accustomed to academy life, like towards the senior year, I got to the point where I was like, yeah, I don't really like following all the rules, I don't really like following all the rules. So Union was good because they were not only did they have the degree that I wanted, but it was more of a like an open school. Like you hear, like we would hear people going to Southern, like wow, wow, you don't have somebody coming into your room to make sure you go to church. Like no, we can go to whatever church we want to, like it's okay, go to church. Like no, we can go, we can go to whatever church we want to, like it's okay. So I mean, union was definitely more like free and open. Yeah, we had to have uh, another inside joke is getting your jesus points. Uh, heard that before but you had to go to all the like as many religious programs as uh, you know you were supposed to, but other than that you were, you were kind of free to to go to whatever church you wanted to. Um, and there was no like time limits and, yeah, we, we had like religion classes that we had to take, but it was more or less like get your degree done.
Speaker 2:And at point I, I enjoyed going to church, like, like I mentioned earlier, like I took some time and and didn't go to church for a while. Once I got to academy I was kind of forced back into going to church and then by the time I got to college, it was, oh yeah, church is kind of cool, you know, and and you know, of course, uh, ron Halverson Jr followed me from the academy and ended up at Union as well. So I was like, yeah, church is great, like preaching the gospel, and like, love, love your neighbor, love God, it's not about the rules Like, so it was like college was a good experience, yeah, and I went through the. Obviously I met my wife there and that didn't happen until we graduated, but, um, yeah, so you're living a a pretty good life.
Speaker 1:Um, some ups, some downs did your, your parents divorce and all that. With all that, you're kind of just like moving forward.
Speaker 2:Seems like you're all right yeah, so I I never really thought like you. You hear of the common theme of like. Well, a child always thinks it's their fault that their parents divorced. And by the time my parents divorced I was older and kind of out of the house and doing my own thing.
Speaker 2:Cause Academy, you know you're taking care of yourself for the most part for most of the day, like people will make sure you're in your room and stuff, but like you're doing your own laundry, you're you have your own food and stuff. But like when they divorced I I even had people are like, are you okay? Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, I've seen this coming for years. Like they stopped talking to each other like five years prior to that when they got divorced. They got separated for a few years before that and my dad would either not be in the house or like sleeping on the couch. So I was already used to like that, that scenario where it's just the, that environment. But at Academy, once they divorced, I was like, oh no, no, I don't have to be in my. My dad's not a scary person anymore. Like he's not, he's not grumpy and angry all the time, like he's not going to be in the house so I can go home and have a good time when I go home, um, but it wasn't.
Speaker 2:Like I never thought that it was my fault, um, because that they had their own. Like my parents individually. When I would visit them, they explained like no, you know, it was it's all us, it's all on us. Like, yeah, sometimes we lashed out to you maybe, but like it's never your fault. So I never really had a problem, uh, with my parents' divorce. I had more of a problem when they started, uh, when my dad got remarried, and so that was a new experience for me. Like I had to figure out, I had to like the whole step-mom like scenario, but that was, that was actually when I was in college, so I was more or less out of the house. I didn't have to deal with most of that stuff.
Speaker 1:But so then, life, you, you go, you, you meet your wife. Life's going well. At this point, god is. Is he different, is he? Or is it still kind of the god of your youth who was kind of about the rules but love your neighbor and like who? What was it at this point, after graduating, getting married, going into that for a couple years?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I mean, I knew for sure that I didn't want to braise my like have a family similar to mine upbringing where it was like all about the rules. So there was definitely some like compromise not really compromise, but like thinking differently about different things. Like well, what if we don't want to cook on like, have have to be able to cook on Sabbath, like is it OK to go out to eat? And we we eventually got to the the point of like, well, yeah, that's okay. I mean even even if because we were in loma, linda when we got married, like that was the thing that everybody did after church. They just went out to like you know, spaghetti factory or whatever, right, um, and it was all it was. That was the thing to do. And so we're like well, so there was that.
Speaker 2:But I actually experienced that kind of in at union previously, because you had you actually got charged for eating in the cafeteria on Sabbath and I was like, well, what's the difference between getting charged at the cafeteria and going out to eat? So I was already on the path of that. So it was it was more or less searching for if these things that I held true my entire life are they? Are they really important? Am I going to lose my faith in God? Am I going to like stop loving God If I, you know, go to the hot springs on Sabbath and go past my ankles like or?
Speaker 1:so what were you finding out?
Speaker 2:that, that it wasn't like I was finding out, but I was still like, well, tithe is important, we still should go, we need to go to church every sabbath and uh, you know, do all, do all the the main things, but like it was the little things that didn't really matter as much, you know yeah, it's kind of like how do we decide?
Speaker 1:and usually it's based on what your parents had decided and whether you're for it or against it. If your parents were like, so for this thing, and it was, you're like this is terrible, then you're gonna go the other way. Or if you had, if they were good about it, maybe you're like, yeah, this is what we're going to be, like, um, but that question of like you know, there's people working in the calf, there's people like, you have to eat like yeah, what are you going to do with that?
Speaker 1:because you're in college and if you look at the bible, it's not really going to help because it's like a completely different context, completely different problems. So you actually have to think about these things and decide, yeah, what am I going to do with all this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and as an adult, that's exactly what we did. We're like, well, our parents brought us up this way and, of course, uh, my wife's parents are a little more lax than my parents were, so we still had that like. We had to have a few discussions about, like, what's important? Um, I guess it really like it is going to church every sabbath and not missing a day. Like, is that really a salvation unless you or like, can we like relax and just spend time with ourselves? And maybe, I mean, we got to.
Speaker 2:It was before, slightly before the time of live streams, so they were there, like loma linda had a live stream, but, like none of the other smaller churches had that at that time, so you had to go to church if you wanted to get the sermon.
Speaker 2:So we had those discussions and over time, we got to the point of this is how we want to raise our children and it's it's not all about all of the rules like god loves you, and so we, we started finding the the gospel a little bit more, um, and then, of course, we moved to rapid city. I mean, we moved from loma linda, which is a very like a more, let's say, progressive or liberal side of adventism, um to rapid city, south dakota, which was not so. We again had to like, come to terms with, like, what is important and it's not whether or not you you drink coffee and stuff. And so we had, we had a few years. We moved there in 2015 so we had, you know, we had, we started there, went to church. My wife was working in the hospital. She's a physician, so she was doing a residency. That's how we ended up in Rapid City. We didn't choose to be there.
Speaker 1:Now you love it. Shout out to all our Rapid City friends we love you guys.
Speaker 2:It's been a very good community. Initially there wasn't a lot of people. There were people that were from Union but had graduated well before we did. So we didn't really have a community starting out. So we're kind of on our own and it was kind of tough. But after three years we started. I mean, we had Krista's best friend is up there. She moved away for a little bit, but now they have they've moved back in 2020. But so we had, we had Krista's friend, and so we made some other friends and started to realize like, yeah, this is where we want to stay. And so after residency we ended up staying.
Speaker 2:And then COVID hit in 2020 and of course we had our two kids and, um, you know, my wife being the physician, she's like, well, we probably shouldn't. Uh, there was a big like the church had a huge controversy over like a big like the church had a huge controversy over, like you know, wearing masks versus not wearing masks and like, did you get the vaccine versus not? I mean that's that's something that was across the board. The whole country was doing this. But it's a little hard when you're when your religion is doing it too and you, you don't really feel like you can take a side, because you know you want, you want people to be healthy, but you want them to have their choice.
Speaker 2:And so we decided that we would not go to church and eventually, like initially it was like we won't go to church because the country's basically shut down.
Speaker 2:And then they opened up again and we we, I think we went one week and it was just very like contrary, like there was a split in the church, like the people that wore masks were on like one side of the church and the people who didn't wear on the other side, and they were clarinating each other. And we're sitting in the middle and we're like, you know, let's uh not go to church for a few like two more months, you know. So, um, over that time uh chris's best friend moved back to uh rapid city and actually got married to one of my best friends. So that way we had a, uh had a part in getting them together. Actually it's kind of a fun story, but we ended up uh coming back to rapid city and so that's when we started coming back to church, because we at least had, you know, a couple of friends that we could and we had a bit of a community and so we started going back to church.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, a couple of years after I don't remember exactly, it's 2024. So I think it's two years ago the pastor that was there ended up leaving for various reasons. The church still has some difficulty with being loving, so eventually the pastor just decided to leave because he didn't feel loved and there was some other stuff going on too. But so we actually searched for a pastor for a year and then we got to the current pastor came in about a year and a half, maybe two years ago. Pastor came in about a year and a half, maybe two years ago. Um, he came in and he's a I would say he's a more like moderate adventist. So he's not like he's not really conservative. He understands like there's differences in opinions, but like some of the things would come out that were just like wow, I never thought about this before, like I don't even remember this as a kid Like one time there was a baptism I think it was one of his first baptisms and it just happens to be a couple, like a Native American couple, and which made it even more awkward because he like stood them up front and they had to, like, raise their right hand, like they're, uh, like, protecting the constitution, joining the military, and basically, like we spent 20 minutes and those of us who have never experienced this before, like, is this even a thing?
Speaker 2:There's 13 of those. Yeah, you're taking your vows. There's 13 of them. It wasn't the abridged version. Do you love Jesus and will you support the church? It was like do you love Jesus and will you keep the 28 fundamental beliefs? Do you support everything Ellen White said? Is that like I'm? I'm being kind of coy, but that's no, I've heard them yeah, it's kind of uh.
Speaker 2:So we're like, wait a minute. So we actually went as a community, like there's just a couple of us would go, would go back to our house and we're like, well, where is it? Is it? Did you agree to this? Like what, what is going on? And so, um, we, we went over that stuff and we found all of these. If you think the 13 are bad, you should look at the 21 that were back in the early 1900s there. That's where these come from. Um, but like, we, we, we did.
Speaker 2:That's when I started like researching, like what do I believe? Like wondering, like, do I actually believe this stuff? And did I agree to this when I was baptized? Because I was baptized when I was 12 by my grandpa, who didn't do that. He's like do you love jesus? And you know, are you? Do you want to be a member of the church and dunk? Um, so I didn't get that, but it's something that you actually it's on the back of your baptismal certificate that you like sign. Um, that has all of the vows as well. But, um, that's when we, that's when we all like we, we, really.
Speaker 2:That was really the first wake-up call to is there something more. Why do I feel like this is? Why do I feel confined? I don't feel free, even though the gospel says I'm free. Why is this like? Why? Why is this Um? And then like a couple, uh, like, down the road there was a communion incident where, um, that had never been brought up to us before, but apparently it's something that's uh, you know, it depends on what church you go to is whether or not your children can participate. And as a child, I remember my parents being like no, you will not participate in communion until you're baptized. And so that was like that was the goal, was like get baptized, I can eat bread and juice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get the cracker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I couldn't do that before, and so we made the decision as a family when we had kids. We're like you know well, there's nothing explicitly against. Like you know, jesus didn't say you know, do this in remembrance of me unless you're under 12 years old. Like there's no, there's nothing explicitly wrong with giving your children communion. So we're like it's fine, and so we did. And then there was, you know, some controversy about like oh well you know, the manual says don't let your.
Speaker 2:The church manual says don't let you know, don't let children participate, but they have to be baptized and anybody that's baptized can participate. And like all right, let's so. Eventually we like had a conversation as a community with the church leadership and and we eventually got to the point of well, it's a, it's a family decision. If you want to let your children do that, it's a teaching thing like it's not. Like here's a snack in church, like why are you doing? We we're pretty uh adamant about like teaching why we're doing this and what does you know each, each part, mean and stuff.
Speaker 2:So, but then, like every, every time, something would come up. We, I would just spend time researching it out, like why, where does this belief come from and why do I, why do I believe it? And uh, you know, and we eventually got to the point where I was like, well, this, this doesn't matter, this doesn't matter. And then it got to tithe, which was, which was throughout my life, was a very important thing, like you do not miss, like giving your 10 to the church because that's god's storehouse, right, um, so I, I, there's a, a concert series that happens every year in rapid city called hills alive, and they have like christian artists that come and it's a free concert.
Speaker 2:So there's, there's nothing, you don't have to buy anything. It's a whole weekend, um thing. And so they, they have like three days of music and at the end they say, you know, please donate some money so we can do this next year. Right, and over this course of time, when I'm like discovering, like discovering what I actually believe, I got to the point where I'm like, um, can I support this other ministry where I see people like getting baptized into the gospel, like, can I support this ministry with my tithe and so I had. I went into, like you know, research mode and did all the research and eventually it came to the conclusion that it doesn't say you have to give your tithe to a specific church, it just says give.
Speaker 2:And so I was like oh okay, well, I guess, uh, I guess we can do that. So now we yeah, we give to the church as well, but we also may set aside some of our tithe because it's a percentage of our income to actual giving to other places.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ministries ministries, yeah, ministries. So you were just kind of going through like the fancy uh word that everybody hates, not everybody hates, some people hate. Like you were deconstructing some of what you believed and, yeah, going back like, oh, this is this is why um did it feel scary?
Speaker 2:at first, yeah, like I didn't know, like I was having feelings that I didn't uh, understand right, like, wow, like what? What if I get to the point where you know my, you know my beliefs, don't follow the bible? Like what, what do I do then? Do I, you know? Does it still make sense?
Speaker 2:Like there are people, like we talk about people that like, leave the church and it's specifically, you know, in an Adventist context. Like, oh, all the young people are leaving and like, oh, it's all because they're, you know, mad about something or they got church hurt. They don't really talk about the people that leave for theological reasons. We won't go down that rabbit hole, but I mean, it's not everybody that's you know, it's not because the church can't keep.
Speaker 2:People are predicated on a certain you know, worldview and it's it's. It's tough to leave that worldview. It's tough to look at things in the bible outside of that worldview. Even the gospel you can look at. I would say this for any religion, like you have, if you've been brought up in a religion, you have that certain worldview and everything you believe filters through that.
Speaker 2:So when I was just like discovering these things, I was looking at just what the Bible says Like, does the Bible say that, that I have to tithe to a certain denomination in under the new covenant? Because I started studying covenant theology and there there are definitely patterns in the Bible that are completed with the new covenant, which which I know you guys have kind of talked about. I think I've seen a couple episodes of something that kind of goes over like the, the different similarities between the old and new Testament and stuff. But yeah, when I started doing that I was like the bible really, you know, makes sense if you're not just picking and choosing verses and entering yourself into it. Um, and it's not just adventism that it does this, like other denominations do it too, and they kind of I I call it hopscotching around the Bible to prove a belief.
Speaker 1:Proof texting. Some people call it right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's what it's called.
Speaker 1:Okay, we want to take a quick break right now and I want to introduce you to my friend, chloe. And Chloe, you've been on the Death to Life podcast before as a guest. I want to ask you this If they haven't heard your episode, how long have you been rocking with Good Gospel?
Speaker 3:I've been rocking with Good Gospel for four years now.
Speaker 1:How did you? Real quick, because you have a whole podcast, but how did you come across this message? How did you come across this message?
Speaker 3:Man. I came across this message one summer in the sweet state of Hawaii at summer camp, surrounded by just a beautiful family of believers who just poured in their love and spoke life over me.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. How has this understanding and revelation how has it changed your life?
Speaker 3:It's changed every aspect of my life I. The biggest thing it's changed is I know. I now know that I'm loved and I have belonged in somewhere.
Speaker 1:Mercy. So what made you decide to donate of your finances to keep the podcast going?
Speaker 3:What made me donate is that this message needs, these stories need to be told, because I know how much it's impacted me too. It's one thing to read the Bible, and I encourage that and it's beautiful, but what really changed my life and really helped a lot of this click for me was hearing the stories and experiences and every single person's story on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Even if they have lived completely different lives. For me, I relate to every single person in some way. Well, thank you so much, chloe, you're a blessing to us and donate to the Death to Life podcast, because we're just convinced that as long as we keep preaching gospel, these stories are going to be out there and we want to be able to get them out there. So, loverealityorg and go to donate, and that would just bless us moving forward. So, thank you so much, chloe, and we're gonna get back into the podcast um, so yeah, there was, there was that.
Speaker 2:And then, while while we were all doing this um, krista's best friend was like hey have you heard of this?
Speaker 2:uh, this thing called love reality, and, of course, the first thing I do I'm like get on the internet, look up love reality. And this was like 2021 kind of, when we were going through all of this stuff in 2022 and uh, so I the first, unfortunately for you guys, the first thing that came up was an article from, from our, our alma mater. Uh, the paper that was like totally trashing your guy. Like this is this is wrong and they're teaching all this stuff and it's like they're doing all this other stuff, and I'm like there's only one article, there's nothing else. That was the top search.
Speaker 1:That article. A YouTube video was out yesterday and someone was quoting from that Clocktower article from a college sophomore from how many years ago it was.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's a shame People go to that thing and they're like look at this they still unfortunate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, but like me at this point, you know, I've been told my whole life like, oh, don't, like, don't read that book because they talk about your religion in a negative manner or don't you know, don't talk to that person because they're not, they're not in our fold anymore, like that was. Pretty much my whole childhood was like these things were keeping. It would keep coming up about like people saying that it doesn't match up with the Bible, and they're like, no, no, don't, don't read that book. You know that it doesn't match up with the bible. And they're like, oh, no, don't, don't read that book, you know we won't say which books but I mean you, you know, yeah, the what happens.
Speaker 2:Um, so I was like you know what? I'm tired of people telling me not to go do this. Like not to listen to somebody. I'm gonna go and listen to their uh, death to life. I don't know what series it was at the time, but like it was all jonathan uh talking through adam one and adam two and basically the whole, the whole premise of what you guys teach. And I was like this is, you know, from what I have already studied, like this is this is following the bible. Like there's nothing here that I I wouldn't agree with now. Like it, you know, two years ago I probably would have been like, yeah, you guys are a little weird. Like let's not, you know, yeah, I was already. I think it was a god thing that we were to the point of already exploring, like, what the gospel actually was like is it about works or is it about jesus?
Speaker 2:like yeah it's about what you do. Uh, no, so love reality already made sense in some fashion, like when, when you came up to rapid city to do the series that you did, you already know the controversy that the church was having with you. And they're like no, you can't come and teach in the church because the conference I think it was the Mid-America Union that said, conference said, don't, don't have them in your church. So we're like, well, fine, we're going to do, we're going to have them, we're going to rent a space in town and have them come anyway. And so that's what we did. There was there was quite a bit of controversy over that as well, but it was, it was good.
Speaker 2:And then I don't know if you you remember, but you specifically said to me like, uh, what does I mean? Do you? Is this what you believe? Or something like that. I was like I. I I said I think I already believe this. I was still on my like the beginning part of my journey. Um, I still was in kind of the world view of the religion. I think now I'm even more on board with the gospel than I was then. Like that was, that was like the beginning part. And then every time, like we do internet church or something, or I listen to a podcast.
Speaker 2:I'm like oh yeah it makes sense like, and then I'll, of course I'll go read, read the bible and and find it for myself as well, because, as I don't know this is, people probably aren't old enough. Uh, some people aren't old enough to remember reading rainbow tv show. But uh, lavar burton would always say don't take my word for it, you know, go go read for yourself. And so I've. Basically that was the one thing I took for my child shout out to public television yeah, I was like don't, don't take their word for.
Speaker 2:So I've never like I don't you probably since you're on my facebook page like I'm the facts for the day guy. Like every day I have a fact for the day and I research that out and make sure that it's. Sometimes I miss or like it's old information, but for the most part, like I have to make sure that it's actually true before I I post it. So I do that. I do that with theology too what was it about?
Speaker 1:so you hear jonathan and you're like, okay, this sounds, you know, like we I've been unpacking a bunch of this stuff. What he's saying, that sounds like it lines up with scripture. I came out to rapid city and I think we were sitting at the table or something and I'm like, yeah, man, like what do you think? And I was. I always get a tad nervous when it's people that I know, uh, but they haven't seen me in, like uh, like I'm not. I've never been a preacher and I still am not really a preacher. I'm just a guy who gets up there and I'm just like, hey, check this out. But I know what I'm saying has got life in it. I know what I'm saying is powerful because I'm preaching the gospel and I'm like I could tell that Krista was feeling it a little bit. But I was like is Josh feeling this? What were you grabbing onto? What was the idea from the gospel that you're like I like this or this is different, what was new?
Speaker 2:I would say it's that it doesn't like my assurance of salvation does not include me other than like me accepting the gospel, obviously. But it's not like I accept the gospel and then I have to do things to stay in in the good graces of God. Like it's not about what I do but it is like what I do may be the fruit of having the gospel in the first place. Like that makes it's not the like. My favorite saying is the God you know your works are not the root of the gospel, it's the fruit of the gospel.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean we just in my Bible study this morning. We were in Ephesians 2. And Ephesians 2, what is it? 9 and 10 or something.
Speaker 1:It spells it out so beautifully that you have been saved by grace, not of your own doing. It is a gift from God, so that no one may boast. And then it says we are his workmanship, created for good works that we should walk in them. So you are not saved by works. You are saved for good works that God has set aside before the foundation of the world that you should walk in them. But there is no boasting in your salvation. Like. You cannot say, you cannot pat yourself on the back. There is no glory that goes to you. Not one percent of your salvation has anything to do with you. You've been saved by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. You've been saved by grace, not by faith. Faith is the lens that you see the grace and praise God that those verses are in scripture. People still can't understand it or they don't read it. They want to make sure your works are in there. I get it. But yeah, you were saved by grace, not of your own doing, Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would say, you know, lately I have come to the conclusion that the gospel is simple, like if you get to the point where you're adding things that either you need to do or God needs to do to the gospel, it's not the gospel anymore, it's the gospel plus or what God is currently doing, for example. But it's already done. You've already been set free from the burden and slavery of sin. It doesn't mean that you're going to stop sinning, but you're free from the repercussions or the wages of sin no longer apply to you.
Speaker 1:So understanding and you say, like it's a, you know it's a huge deal to to have assurance, right, and so much of us were missing that assurance. So when you got that assurance, what did that open up the door to?
Speaker 2:Just I, I've been just studying, studying more of the gospel or, you know, studying what other people not not only what love reality teaches about the gospel, but exploring like what other you know denominations teach about the gospel and and from what I have found for the most part is that other other places are teaching the gospel. So it's not like it's not like you guys have discovered the gospel again. It's always been there. You're just bringing it back into like two people that maybe have a different view of the gospel, let's say, and giving that like this is this is what the Bible says, like it's not. Uh, for example, a lot of the retorts to what you guys talk about in the gospel.
Speaker 2:And what you guys talk about in the gospel and and, quite honestly, the rest of of protestant christianity, the concern is, while you're teaching, you know, once saved, always saved. There are very few denominations that actually teach like once saved, always saved you. It's always that you are saved by the gospel and your works will show it after that. Like it's not. It's not that you are saved and you don't have to do anything like that. There's no change in you and you can just do whatever you want and you'll still be saved. It's that your works will show that you have accepted the gospel. Now it's up for debate what those works are, which is the factor, but in general, the gospel is out there.
Speaker 1:You know this once saved, always saved. In our background maybe I don't want to speak for you, but you tell me if you agree. Our background seems to be that we throw once saved, always saved, that anything that sounds a little too good to be true or a little scary, we'll say, well, that's one saved, always say. But once saved, always saved, is an actual doctrine that you said. Not very many people, not very many groups, but there are some groups that believe in this, um, eternal assurance, this doctrine that, um, once you're saved, um, you will be safe forever. I know my buddy, matt mcmillan. Um, he believes that and god bless him. He, that, that's what he believes. I don't believe that it is impossible for me to stop believing in Jesus. I'm a free agent and so, uh, I hear what Matt's saying. I think, from God's perspective, I mean it's true. But, uh, but once saved, always saved, isn't just that scary, it sounds too good or cheap grace.
Speaker 1:And people will say, oh, you guys just believe that you can sin and get away with it. And I'm like, were you at the first night? Have you heard? You know, what shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin? That grace may abound? By no means I get it. I get why people say that, because they want to make sure that you're doing good works. But even that idea of making sure somebody doing his good works, that doesn't work. No, that's not like you're not living by the Spirit. If you have big brother watching over you, you are living by the spirit if christ is living his life through you. Uh, and so that gets tough because you can't. You actually have to spend some time and and learn and be ministered to to understand these things. These things are spiritual ideas and everyone wants just like a list of rules and I'm like well, that's not really how it works.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying, as I said the other day, I posted it. Uh, the gospel is not a system of theology and so, yeah, if you're adding like you need, you need to do this, or this is what your works are going to look like, then you're already past what the gospel says.
Speaker 1:The gospel not being a system of theology. Theology is not a bad thing and it's used to understand the gospel, but the gospel is not that thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can't use your system, you can't say that your specific beliefs or fundamentals, if we want to say, are what saves you, because only the gospel is what saves you, like, I'll use an example you can ask a Lutheran, a Presbyterian and a Baptist what the gospel is and get generally the same idea of what the gospel is. I have found that if you ask, depending on where you are in the country, if you ask several different Adventists what the gospel is, you could get totally different sides of the spectrum. One is like, oh, it's all you know, it's grace plus works. The other side already, like, listen to you guys and said it's not about what you do, it's not you know so, uh, but there, there are definitely religions out there that that state uh, you know you need to follow this path in order to be saved, whereas a lot of Protestants, at least at the organizational level, will say, yeah, we have different beliefs on the small stuff, like state of the dead or baptism, but we have the same gospel and I have listened to enough.
Speaker 2:I I run 15 miles a week, uh, split between three days. So I I stick like a podcast in my ear and I'm running down the road and listening to other points of view on the gospel just to see, like you know, what other people say. Do they? What they say the bible says? Is that what it means? Like, and so, like I, I have found that the gospel the same gospel that you guys are are teaching love, reality, which I also listen to all your podcasts and stuff is is is very similar to what is outside of our, like my, current religion.
Speaker 1:So it's it's kind of like a mind blowing moment to realize that other people you know since the first century have had the gospel like yeah, so you, you made a Facebook post that um jonathan saw and I think it kind of jump-started him, uh, because it's just like we have wave one and he's like, uh-uh, now we're doing wave zero, and the facebook post was that the gospel is not the life of Jesus. Walk me through that. How did you, how did you come to that understanding?
Speaker 2:So after, after listening to you guys and like kind of reading the you know where Paul talks about the gospel, I I found someone that posted a like a, a paragraph out of a book and like it was basically like the gospel is jesus's life, death and resurrection, and I was like something clicked in my mind and I was like, hey, that's. I read that somewhere and it doesn't match. Like it doesn't, like it's, it's not. That's not what the bible text says and I think it's. You know. First cor, uh. Third, is it 13 or 15?
Speaker 1:15 is the one that kind of he breaks it down 15, 15.
Speaker 2:Yep. And so I went back and read it and it was like this is the gospel and this is just Jesus's uh, death, burial and resurrection and I was like his life isn't included in that explanation of the gospel. Yes, we should strive. Our works will be more.
Speaker 1:We should walk like him, right? John says in 1 John that if he walked this way, we should walk in the same way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so there's that, but that's not what saves you. Like, what saves you, it's jesus's death, only way to to to God. Like well, he is God. But yeah, so I was like wait, I mean it doesn't make. Like where do I, where do we get the idea of life, death and resurrection? And so I had to. I had to dig into the, the specific belief in Adventism that talks about the gospel and it's there in Jesus' life, death and resurrection is what it says. And then it extrapolates further by saying Jesus is our perfect example. Jesus is our perfect example. Basically, part of the gospel is that we are living like Jesus, but it sounds more like the root if you read the actual belief. It sounds like the root of the gospel is Jesus died for you, but he's going to help you live like he did because he's the example.
Speaker 1:So let me ask it this way, that's why I made that post, right, it was. Seriously, I didn't know that. The belief is different than what's in the Bible. Yeah, so the idea okay, help me with this, help me reconcile these two ideas that the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection, and yet we ought to walk like he walks. Does that even need reconciliation? Or that's just like this is the gospel and this is how you should live, but that's not the gospel.
Speaker 2:How are we reconciled to god?
Speaker 1:we have been through jesus's death, burial and resurrection, yeah, so even if we were able to live like jesus?
Speaker 2:is that what reconciles us to god? No then that's that would be my answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this isn't like a get out of jail free card, I think sometimes, when people, if they have a certain mindset and I think the mindset is this what do I need to do to be saved? Tell me what I need to do to be saved. Tell me what I need to do it's this idea that the kingdom of heaven hasn't actually come yet. The kingdom of heaven is heaven. It's like one day when we die, it isn't God pouring himself into humanity now so that we can love and we can like? We bring peace now, we bring joy now, uh, and so, with that mindset, we're looking at the bible as basic instructions before leaving earth, rather than this is what has actually happened and this is what your inheritance is well, and you also have to realize that, um, the Bible is written to a specific group of people at a specific time.
Speaker 2:So when you start, if you start hoarding yourself into the Bible, you can get all sorts of like, wrong ways. You have to like. I have found that that, yes, there is an application to us now, but I have to first understand what the original meaning was to the audience that it was written to so, getting a revelation of the gospel.
Speaker 1:What has it done for your day-to-day? I mean, it sounds like you have a great grasp on what has actually been accomplished by Jesus, but if it's just a good grasp on something that has been accomplished by Jesus, then that's what it is. It isn't a transforming power like the gospel or how or how paul describes it in in romans, chapter one. What is it done in in your life?
Speaker 2:I think I think about things differently, like, um, it's not, it's not about what I am doing. It's it's more about like, am I loving, loving God and am I loving my neighbor? Is, is what I am doing, uh, mirroring what the gospel has done for me? Or like, am I trying to do things on my own? And there's still, like there are definitely times that I'm like, well, why? Why am I doing this? Like, am I doing it for because I, you know I'm? Am I doing it because I'm trying to get God to do something, or am I not thinking about it?
Speaker 2:There are times that I do something without thinking about it and I think that's the freedom of the gospel and knowing that it's all about Jesus. There's nothing that I could do. Jesus loves me the way I am. Yeah, there is a change when the gospel is recognized in you. There is definitely a change that happens and potentially, I'm still a little bit on that journey. Like I'm still finding pieces of the gospel where I'm like, wow, that's like I didn't think about that before, but like it's definitely changed my, my attitude and you know how I treat my family. Um, it's not like, oh, we need to. I'm a little bit more like open to the changes in my life.
Speaker 1:So man that's. I want to read this. This is Ephesians, chapter 2, what we were just talking about, and he says I'll edit this part out when I'm looking for it.
Speaker 2:I'm going to find it, that's fine okay.
Speaker 1:Verse 7 says so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace and kindness towards us in christ jesus. So he's talking that God is rich in mercy. He loved us with a great love, even when we were dead in our trespasses. He made us alive. By grace we have been saved and that in the time to come, our eyes are going to be opened to what all of this actually means. So when you say, yeah, I'm still in, you know stuff's getting unpacked for me. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It probably will never cease.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what's going to be happening. Our eyes are open to see it and Paul says that in 1 Corinthians 2, that we couldn't even glimpse it if we don't have the Spirit. Because spiritually, spiritual things are discerned spiritually. And so in the coming ages, our eyes are going to be open more and more to what is ours, not what we have to do, but what our inheritance is with the rest of the saints. And I'm down with that. I'm down to grow and see and let that just change me and how I operate and I'm just gonna grab onto it. I'm already a winner through him who lives in me. Yeah, um, is that, is that cool? Is that fair enough? Like we don't have the whole eyes wide open yet, because it's like wow, like it's totally like a flip turnaround like total change in in character and the person.
Speaker 2:And there I mean it's, it's, there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with that, like that happens a lot. Um, but I would say, like for myself, like I got pieces of the gospel through my life. So it was more of a like gradual, like coming to the realization of what the true gospel is, but I mean I already had pieces of it. So it wasn't like where you, you experience like this, this great, like change in your life. It's just like I'm, I've, I've been getting little pieces and like love, reality is part of that and and kind of opened, sent me and maybe on a different path of of finding the gospel than I probably would have otherwise so what would you say to young Josh?
Speaker 1:uh, let's pick young Josh who's staying at home to to play video games instead of going to church.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Who is kind of frustrated at religion. I think I would put my arm around him. I'd be like I get it, bro. What would you, what would you say to him?
Speaker 2:Uh, this isn't. This isn't the end. You'll find the gospel. I mean, I would probably tell him earlier what the gospel is. It's not about all these rules. Don't be mad at your parents I mean I wouldn't say I'm mad at anybody that helped bring me up. Like they're only subject to what they understand themselves, like. So I would give myself like a jumpstart to the gospel earlier, and I think I was a reasonable kid.
Speaker 2:I would like oh maybe I need to like read the Bible more. I would like, oh, maybe I need to read the Bible more, because I totally was like, well, if this is what the Bible is, I don't want to read it. When I was a kid.
Speaker 1:Fair enough, man. Love your family and I see, is that Captain? Did he go somewhere else? Where is he? You guys have been a blessing to us, you're a blessing to our community and we love to see how you guys are stewarding this thing and, man, we're just excited to see more life and how we grow, in truth, man. So thank you for just being on this journey with us and thank you for sharing your testimony today you're welcome yeah, josh's story.
Speaker 1:I you know it resonates with me a lot because, um, sometimes we know that something is missing. We don't know that, we know that like there's the back of our mind like this can't be it. And then the truth comes in and it's so powerful to see oh, this, this is what it's been all along. I just didn't know it. And so if that's the position that you're in, if you're going along and you're like this can't be it. This, this gospel is, is okay news, it's not good news, then this prayer is for you, father open the eyes of my heart so that I can see and receive what you have given me in your son Jesus the salvation you've given me in him, the wisdom you've given me in him, the justification, the righteousness, the wisdom. Open my eyes to my inheritance so I can receive it today. In your name, I pray Amen.
Speaker 1:All right, I'm about to jump on the Death to Life Bible study because it's Monday night. If you're open on a Monday night, you should join us. Go to loverealityorg slash circles to get all the information on where we meet during the week. It is an amazing time. Hopefully we'll see you at one of these. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Bye.