Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#11 Finding Grace in Brokenness: Elias Groft's Story of Redemption
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Elias tells his story of a misplaced identity as a soccer player to his new identity as a son. The gospel is strong in this one.
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Are we starting the podcast now ? We've been on the podcast , my brother Yo , welcome to the Death to Life podcast . My name is Richard Young and today's podcast hits very close to home for me because it is a conversation with Natalie's brother , my brother-in-law , elias Groft . There's a lot of heavy stuff in it . I want to give a warning that it's not for young ears . There's definitely some real stuff in it . I get probably a little emotional just thinking about my brother and everything , the journey that he's been on and where he is now . I just praise God for it . It's crazy , it's an intense journey , but I just see God's faithfulness just shining through brightly . There's so much power in this one . I think it's the longest one that we've done so far , but that's just because I think we could have probably talked four more hours . It's not four hours , but we could have talked that much more because there was so much to unpack . I hope you enjoy it . When I say enjoy , I hope you glean a huge blessing from his story and how God has grown him , matured him , the way he's doing that for all of us . With all that being said , all aboard , buckle up . I appreciate y'all , love y'all .
Speaker 5Yo Richard , are you about to do the podcast ?
Speaker 6Speaking first On my soldier's place . That's made for a soldier . Oh my god , this the life I was made for . We do it major , we do it major , yeah , yeah . Put off the chains . We bounce Up for the night . Look out , god give me life .
Speaker 2No clown this for the lost and found . Bro um , I met . I met you . Was it Natalie was telling me to ask you this . When did you meet me ? Was it fall of 2006 ?
Speaker 5Was it Thanksgiving , because I remember going down there and yeah , you rolled up in that good Camry that had a sunroof and we went somewhere . I think we went to like Gallatin or something and you were bumping . You were bumping and I was like whoa Natalie's rolling with the guy who was bumping and you had . You had the . What was like ? What does bumping mean ? I don't know , you had something , you had something playing , but you used to have like the CD rack on your visor . You know the visor in your car . You had like the CD , like all the records , and you were like what do you all listen to , being all like hip and stuff . It was kind of funny . But yeah , that was the first time I ever met you .
Speaker 2I'm trying to figure out how much older I am than you are . I am , I'm 37, . How old are you ?
Speaker 531, . So I'm a couple years younger .
Speaker 2Man . It felt a lot like I was a lot older back then Because you I just graduated from college and you ?
Speaker 5were a sophomore or junior in high school . I was a sophomore in high school , yeah . So yeah , it was quite a big , quite a big difference at that point .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I was trying to be the cool Natalie and I were pretty serious pretty early on . So I thought and I mean I was meeting you guys , I was meeting pretty much the whole family , so I was trying to . You know , it was a big deal to me and I remember you guys were really really cool and I was like man , these guys are really cool . And I met your sister , your oldest sister , and I had already known Lily for a few years . Yeah , what was going on ? What was going on with you at that point ? You came to your sophomore or junior in high school .
Speaker 5What's going on with you ? Yeah , so like that was the point where , like my , life really had transitioned Because I'd grown up in like an Adventist home or whatever , and that's when I started playing soccer , like for the public school . I switched over from a private academy and went to a public school , so like it was sort of in summer of 2000 , summer of 2006 is , yeah , I was pretty established in my new life Because I'd said see you to the whole Adventist academy thing and I was going to public school around and playing soccer .
Speaker 2What was that ?
Speaker 5like Nah , so I had left .
Speaker 2Yeah , walk me through that , yeah .
Speaker 5Yeah , so I had gone to a private little school From like second grade all the way through eighth grade , had some , I don't know some pretty telling experiences in my life , like so I was telling my actually my family this morning , like it was in seventh grade where really things started to like change for me . I brought pot to school because I thought it would be a good idea and I hid it . I hid this pot and I got caught , so I get suspended and I don't know . From that point on , like I got this , like I got branded . Basically I was a troublemaker . And so I went to the academy my freshman year , which would have been like 2004 , what would have been ? Yeah , freshman year 2004 . And I remember we like we used to do this handshake thing At the academy , like the first weekend , and the principal comes to me and he's like hey , you're not going to be any trouble , are you ? And I was like nah , nah , in my mind I'm like well , you just asked for it . So , like the first year , my freshman year at school I was I don't know it was it wasn't the place for me . I barely scraped by with my grades and my mom gave me the option At the end of that year . You know , do you want to just leave and go to the public school ? My brother had already gone to the public school and I was like , yeah , this isn't my place to be . So I left and it was all to go play soccer .
Speaker 2That was the biggest . What was going on ? What was going on Like why did you bring ? I don't know if you can even go back to this place in your mind . Were you smoking weed at that point .
Speaker 5I thought it was the coolest thing in the world . But no , I hadn't really smoked anything at that point . I just , I don't know . There was like something about . There's something about it that spoke like rebellious and like I don't know , I'd found it , like I think we had found it in the park the day before and like my buddy had like I don't know , I think he ate some that day , like he like ate some of the marijuana , and I was like is this how we do it ? But no , no , it was just like this , like I don't know . Just wanting to be a rebel , you know , like without a cause , absolutely no cause to be rebellious . But yeah , that was all part of it , and getting out of that place was like the first thing I was on my mind after that Because I don't know , I don't know , you get something like that and you get suspended or you get like pushed away from that main group and you're just like branded like troublemaker , this kid's polluting the environment with like kids and all this other stuff . So yeah , I was out , I was out quick after that .
Speaker 2So you got . Do you feel like being branded a troublemaker kind of made you a troublemaker , or like were you headed in that direction ?
Speaker 5No , I always . I was always a pretty exuberant kid . I was always really excited and never really had a big direction . I knew that my at that point , my the biggest value that I had on myself Was like that . I was an athlete . I could play soccer pretty well , ended up getting me places later on in my life . But yeah , I don't know , I don't know if troublemaker was like my identity at that point , but it definitely gave me something to do that would like Ruffle people's feathers and get attention , and so that's kind of what I took on at that point .
Speaker 2Yeah , you were . I think I'm gonna label all of you guys . This is not cool to do , but like you were when I met you guys , the fun brother Like you were fun . You're just like devil may care . You were kind of doing crazy stuff . Your older brother was I mean , it's in like his job , he's the engineer , he's the way he does things like super planned out . Yeah really very smart . All of you guys are super smart . But his was like oh , you can just tell , oh , this guy's a smart guy and you were the fun guy . And then the younger brother was just , he was the kid , the whole family , yeah , that was like the label that I had for you guys . So you're in public school and you're playing soccer and you're doing well . Walk me through that whole phase of your life .
Speaker 5How was ?
Speaker 2that .
Speaker 5Yeah , so I'd left , like I said , I'd left the Adventist Academy and I'd kind of left that lifestyle behind , kind of stopped going to church , and for the first time in my life I saw a group of people who valued me for something that I could do . And you know , retrospectively it put me into this channel of like I can do and therefore it generates value . And for me it was athletics . It was what I could do on the field , was what I could . I generated friends , I generated attention . You know , even though it was a small town . You know , my name was in the newspaper , like my head , just like grew , grew , grew , grew , grew , but like that was the beginning for me of something that really put me on like I can do so , therefore I'm valuable . And a crazy part of that and I think another part that's worth mentioning is my dad was the one who actually got us into soccer as an attempt to connect with us as kids after my parents had divorced . And he got us into soccer and he was our coach when he was young and a couple things happened and he was like I'm getting away from all things , competition , right , and he never came to a single one of my soccer games , as when I was in high school and I I always understated it but like it made a huge impact on me , like so he had been the one who , like I said , started us in it and was our coach when we were young and like never came to a single one of my games , um , kind of wrote it off as like you shouldn't be doing , that you shouldn't be like playing , because eventually I ended up . I ended up playing on Sabbath and a bunch of other things that he really didn't approve of . But it was weird . It was one of those things that you're like you think you're getting all this approval , but I definitely had like what stereotypical , like daddy issues when it came to His approval of something that he had started in my life and that was being a soccer player and ended up . So I ended up Going to this public school , made all state , got a bunch of rewards , was playing really well , went to a camp my junior year and ended up getting recognized by the university of Memphis . Shout out , you have wait hold on wait , go ahead .
Speaker 2Were you angry at your dad , uh , for not showing up to these games ?
Speaker 5Yeah , probably deep inside . I probably wouldn't admit it because I would probably been like I don't care , like he can come , he cannot come , I'm the one who's doing it . But uh , yeah , probably deep inside . I probably could have admitted . I admit retrospectively , yeah , I was . I was mad that he wouldn't like , um , he wouldn't affirm what everybody else was affirming me . So , like , as a young kid , I was raised in a family , and not in a family , but in , like a religious setting that like set me as I'm a sinner , like I'm bound to mess up gradually and continually in this life and it's going to be my responsibility as a Christian one day I never really made that commitment , but it's going to be my responsibility to overcome this like sinful nature , like you're going to struggle with it , you're going to continue to struggle with it . And then I got out into the world , I guess , got out to public school and got to play in soccer and , like the same person who the church was telling me I have to overcome and struggle with the rest of my life , the world was like we love you , you do awesome things for us , you know , patting me on the back for things that otherwise have been deemed like Not admirable by this other part of my life . So it makes this like this diam , these diametrically opposite things , and I go after the one that gives me the most reward , right , I go after being an athlete , getting the reward for something that this other side said you're going to struggle with it forever . It's going to be something that's going to be . It's going to be a weight on your back with the guilt and the shame of , you know , not being good enough , is going to be there forever . So you're just going to struggle with it . And then this other side was like well , we like you , you know , and all this stuff actually brought value to this other person . So I really just pursued that and I said forget this whole religion thing as far as the context of what I've been raised in , and just fully pursued soccer like it was going to be for me . My grades weren't the best , but I knew . I knew At the end of my sophomore season it was going to be the key for me to get to college . Um , it just there was . Um , and everybody who Spoke value into my life at that time I guess had affirmed that in me , that just to pursue it . So I did . I had a good , decent act score but got picked up by the university of Memphis when I was , uh , and in an invited walk on , so had a spot on the team , right , but I didn't have an athletic scholarship , um , but it was a div one school and , like I said , my head was like this big when it came to like my athletic abilities and to say that I went div one . That was like I was it . So , yeah , I pursued that whole hardly like . I wish I could like have a counter on how many hours of my life I committed to training , but lots , just tons of tons of my life went into a rubber ball that I chased around on a field .
Speaker 2So you were a junior or senior when you found out yeah , I'm headed to Memphis and Invited me to walk on .
Speaker 5Yeah , it was the summer between my junior and senior year , uh , that they invited me to walk on . But I mean , like the whole time Up to that and then Through my senior year it was all about where's the next party . Um , the friend group . Whatever I got to do to stay in the friend group . I was popular because I could play soccer and Cute girls like the guy that could do things on the field and gave them a little notoriety hanging out with me and being on my arm , so whatever . I guess at that point , uh , I was dating a cheerleader and I don't know . Just , I was kind of counting down the days that I could get out of there because I never wanted to stick in Portland , this little town that I lived in . Um , but , yeah , I like , and during this whole time I remember that christian things were like I would just go for the social aspect . There wasn't really anything impactful about them to me , they just kind of they were there , um , I'd go to church and people would be like hey , I saw you in the newspaper and I'd be like cool and I don't know I'd come and go and it was really it wasn't really moving me at all . Um , like I said , I was just , I was going in one direction and that was uh . To be a college athlete , that was huge to me .
Speaker 2Yeah , it was , uh , and I think this is the rather time I met you and all I knew about you was like I remember looking at the newspaper clippings and I I you know , I love sports and I love All that sort of stuff and I'm looking , I'm like man , these , these guys , these guys are different . Um , and , like I said , you were really fun . I didn't know Too much of like the background yet , as as years have gone by . You know I I learned more and more about how you guys grew up in your lives . Um , so I didn't know very much . But uh , what , what was that first year at Memphis ? Like , like , you got out of this town , you grew up in and you made it to the to division one soccer . What happened , bro ? How ?
Speaker 5was that I kicked in the face , I was in over my head like I was , I was a scrub . Like I went from being like Top of the I was , I was , I was all state right . When on my senior , my junior year , I was all state and , uh , I go down to Memphis and man , these guys are good , ball moves faster , the game moves faster . I'm slow for the first time in my life and I really have to dig in like I thought I trained before , like I thought I was committed to soccer before um , but I had to dig in . I . I like I committed so much of my time and effort at that point because , for the first time in my life , something that had been easy , easy pickings for me as far as like affirmation and like Uh , excitement , was now tough as all get out , um , so yeah , that first year was was rough , but like I did pretty good For a freshman , played a few games , um , didn't start any , but like my grades were okay too , but like the whole time . So you know it was . It was like this ongoing thing of like how far can I really push myself on the field ? Uh , lack of sleep , or just like Party after party after party after party . It was this idea of , like I think I'm invincible , um , and what really is my limitation ? So , yeah , uh , my grades were decent , actually made like All conference , honor roll or something my first year . And that was awesome because I could go home and be like , hey mom , look , I have good grades . And then just like , sweat off my back . I only got to worry about nothing . Now I got good grades , I'm honor roll . So then that allowed me to really just um , yeah , kind of Just pushed my and I pushed , I pushed really hard . Um , anybody who knows me personally knows that I'm very goal oriented and I'm very passionate , um , and I think that's something god has given me since I was a young kid . Um , if you put something in front of me and I and I find like it and it clicks with me , like I can do it , like and I think my family is the same way too and yeah , I rich , you know this like , like , we are workers , like we work , like we , yeah , so put something out in front of us and you know it's like the value , it's almost like the creed of my family , like we don't have a lot of money . We didn't never have . We didn't have a lot of um , financial or value as far as that , but we're gonna outwork you right , and that was like that's what that was . The chip on my shoulder was , um , I can put in more work Because I'm not gonna stop where did that come from ?
Speaker 2Where ? Where ? Where is that value come from ?
Speaker 5I think it comes from my mom . Um , like , uh , so a couple things that happened when I was younger . So like rewind , like go , so you were mentioning , like you didn't know all the backstory , but like a few things that happened to us . Um , I'm , I'm the second , uh , youngest of six . You were married to the third youngest of six or the the fourth youngest of six . Um , there's three girls and then there's three boys , um , and you're married to my older sister . Yeah right . Yeah , so , but Like so my parents got divorced , uh , when I was like eight and so that left my mom , single mom and six kids . Um , a couple years later , our house burns down and uh , uh , you know , statistically we shouldn't have made , we shouldn't have made it as a family , right statistically , you know , you get a couple kids , get pregnant couple kids . You know a kid might end up in jail Just because of the lack of like structure . But we were in a great community , man . We were in a community that just wrapped its arm around us and , although my dad wasn't present all the time , for me the dynamics with my father and my family were really weird because For my little brother and I , growing up , like we didn't see that divorce and like actually he and I , through that period , like have zero memory of , like some of these terrible things that happen , you know , when a man and a woman and their lives get torn apart , and some of the things that happened like we don't have any memories . Like I developed Uh shingles and he developed an ulcer . So there's a lot of stress on us during that time , but like we don't remember it .
Speaker 2Um , but I remember you developed shingle because of the stress .
Speaker 5Yeah , of my parents , divorce kind of crazy , yeah , and obi obi got like stomach ulcers , yeah . So like we go through this traumatic experiences , kiddos , but like neither he and I really remember what's going on . But all my other siblings and this will kind of come up later in like my story All my other four siblings like they see the ugliness of divorce , like they see the ugliness of all the things that happen and makes a really In like a really impact , a big impact on them and just the way they Kind of navigate through life after that . But , like I said , our house burnt down . We just banded , bind it together as a family . Like we lived in the woods for a summer in like these campers , while we tried to like Pick up the pieces of our life from our house was burned down and it just kind of bonded us together and it and we we picked up this mantra of like we don't have what's going to give us that step ahead in life , but we know how to work and we know how to work really hard . We know we're willing to sacrifice Other things that people might not be willing to sacrifice to accomplish what we need to get done . Um , and I've never like I don't know In my family that was just what we did and it's A bled over into . Like your spiritual life bleeds over into a bled over into my marriage , um , into just relationships like uh yeah , when you feel like you're at a disadvantage , and that's where you start , there's a lot of things that go on in your mind to get you to a place where you feel like you're on even on even ground with other people , right , so like that , and you're just the work ethic . Yeah , work ethic , let me work . So , um , oh , yeah , yeah , so I'm back in college . Uh , did good my first year , but you know there's nothing more honorable too .
Speaker 2There's nothing more like this is what even our country , our society , like , we look at and we're like , yeah , work ethic Um , it's probably the most honorable thing that you can have as a value in our society . And so , even though there's like tiny Deceptions in there that you can't even pick up , uh , even as a spiritual person like , um , I was talking to somebody this week and they listened to the podcast , so they'll they'll hear this and they said that they love Working hard . They love working hard . If they were going to ride a motorcycle , they would probably end up killing themselves . Yeah but if you give them a bike and they get to ride that bike and work hard to get up that hill , that means something , and they said that their favorite sculpture used to be this the sculpture called the self-made man . And it's this man who's carving himself out of stone , like he's up top , like half of him is already out and he's got the chisel and he's carving himself out and he looked at his spiritual life Like he was gonna make it Because of this work ethic , you know , and there's the deception that that can only bring self-righteousness . That can only bring that . You did it . I don't know if that's what you were dealing with back then , but that's the deception that if we're not careful I'm not saying hard work isn't good , but you can see there's a deception in there If we look at it the wrong way . You know what .
Speaker 5I'm saying yeah , there's this idea that , like , even though I'm created by God and I guess I'm just spiritually speaking like , even though I'm created by God , he has given me the ability to prove my value through what he's created and given me . So , like you'll learn a little bit later on my story , my story , becomes extremely utilitarian of like I'm me , because I'm useful , and even in God's eyes he's given me these things because I'm of use to him and it , you know man , it leaves me in resentment later on because I feel like I get used , so like yeah no , there's hard work , but in the Christian life we don't work anymore Like I don't even I'm employed by somebody , but I don't work . I it's he , it's him who works in me and he wills . He gives me the will and the the , the gumption to do . I don't work because if I were to work , then somebody can undervalue what I do , somebody can fire me from what I do and I don't . I've learned that rest and in my savior is where I , that's me . He works through me day in and day out and um , yeah . And then somebody gives me this cool thing called a paycheck . It's kind of fun , but yeah , no , I don't , I don't , I don't work anymore and it's the , it's the most freeing thing in the world , because , yeah , I mean , think of all the things that come with the stress of a job and stress of expectations .
Speaker 2Well , so you're . Did the game slow down for you back then ? Did the game end up slowing down for you ? As you know , my freshman year I didn't play any kind of division one sport , but I played at a Bible college where we played basketball and the game was going 100 miles an hour . First time I checked in and then by the end of the year it's starting to slow down . Did it end up slowing down for you ? and you're at first you're like , oh , okay , I'm going to outwork these guys or I'm going to go back to the drawing board . Tell me about that .
Speaker 5Yeah , so like , um , it did , it did by the like in college soccer we do . We're at where a fall sport , so we play our false , our fall season . And I got on the field like maybe a handful of times and I remember some of the things my coach said to me is like it's like you're taking three seconds to make every decision or something like that . And I was like it is , it is like this thing's just flying in front of me . But the spring semester , um , I was falling into . We played like four or five games that semester and I was playing like 60 , 70% of those games . So it was , it was coming to me . But that spring semester I uh , I got like a D in chemistry , right , so I had to come back and do summer school so that I'd be eligible the next semester to play right , because I had to have that credit , uh , to be eligible and division ones . Yeah , I got to stay in class , apparently to play sports in college . Um , so I came back that summer and I had a weight coach who was working with me through the school and I was training with some of my friends or some of my teammates and then some of the players who were going to come onto the team the next year . And again , like , I was just working , working my butt off , but I'm only taking one class , and I end up , um , I end up living with , uh , a couple guys that like , um , yeah , they started introducing me to some pretty hard drugs that , before you know , before it was just drink a little bit , smoke a little bit and play soccer and get to school . Um , but that summer I only had one course and it was . It was a summer class . Right , they're pretty easy . If you're taking a summer class , you're going to pass it , you're going to do okay , um , but before I'd gone back to school , I came back home and I went to this thing called camp meeting , which is like , uh , old fashioned revival , and I kind of gave one last ditch effort to like , is this Christian thing for me ? Um , and I remember sitting in this like young adult camp meeting thing and this guy is talking about , like , how he wants to be in heaven so he can fly through the clouds and taste them like they're cotton candy , and I'm like , uh , now , like this isn't it ? Like I don't know where I'm going to find this thing , but this isn't it . And so I remember leaving that summer and just being like I . I like this is now , I'm good . I'm good I dated . I dated a girl that my freshman year and she was a good influence on me as well . Um , she had come alongside of me just through this , like a campus outreach ministry thing through the school , and like I was flirting around with Christianity still at that point and was like you know , it gives me some benefits , right , it's , it's morality , it's people being nice to people . I like that . That was good . Um , but when it started asking like personal commitment from me , I was like no , I'm good . Like I remember , uh , there was this guy , uh , we call it CEO , but it was campus outreach through like a Presbyterian church or something there on campus , and like he would take us out to eat a meal . Right , I don't know if you've ever done this , but you take some guys out to eat a meal and then you slide in a spiritual conversation at the end because that's your job . So he'd always slide in these spiritual conversations at the end and he'd like bust that a napkin with his pin , and he'd be like you know , it's like it's like humanity's on this side and then God's on this side and there's this chasm , there's this golf in between . But then and I was like , yeah , the cross , the cross bridges the gap . And he'd kind of look at me , like you know the story , you know like I'm , like I don't see why wouldn't you commit to a God who made that gap for it ? I was like , eh , like nah , I'm good , and I was like that was it . I was like I knew it , I knew the story , but I was already told , like Christianity is not going to change . You give you something else to work toward . Um , right , and at that point it was actually asking more of me than I wanted to give . So I was like , nah , I'm good , like well , let's just hang out . Like , man , it's cool , like you did your thing , let's hang out because you're a pretty cool guy . So , um , I'd gone back to school that summer and , like , man , we got anything we get our hands on . Um , uppers , downers , stuff that was mixed with stuff , stuff that we bought off guys off the street , uh , stuff that went on my nose . Yeah , this bad stuff . And , um , there was one week into the other and , man , I didn't miss a beat . I was putting on muscle mass , I was getting faster . Um , I was gaining in athletic department for myself and , man , I went into my sophomore year the beginning of my sophomore year , playing the best soccer I'd ever played , stronger than I'd ever been , faster than I'd ever been and playing more on the team that I'd ever played for . So I was like I was there athletically , but I couldn't have been more confused about who I was at that point . Um , like , if you would have , if you would have sat me down and be like , who are you like , what are you doing ? I'd be like , uh , get out of my face , like I don't even , I don't even like I don't even want to have any . Like self-interpection , like I'm literally living moment to moment . Um , going to class when I should , when I can or when I you know , when I want to , I guess , and just just busting my butt Like , and that that's kind of what that's meant to look like . But by the end of my sophomore fall , my grades had gotten to a place where I jeopardized my ability to continue to play , although my performance on the field was phenomenal . At this point , like best I'd ever been playing . Um , my roommate and I , for both separate reasons , got kicked off the soccer team . My grades weren't good enough and , uh yeah , that that was . This is fall , semester fall semester my sophomore year I I he brought me on into the office and he's like , yeah , um , because your grades are the way they are , uh , we're going to have to let you go off the team . And he was . He was like I'm sorry , like like you're an asset to the team , but you can't cut it , so you're off . And if I haven't conveyed it enough , like I had put everything I had into this , this was , this was my identity , right . In every way , shape or form . It was this idea that I can do and I belong here because I'm willing to work , to be here , and it gets stripped away from me in a day . And I remember , man I was , I was broken , like like I can't . It went back to my apartment and it just fell in tears . I fell against the door . As I walked in the door , like my my legs went and holding me up , kind of thing . Um , and I was distraught . So , like , this was the end of November , finish up the semester . Um , I got a few phone calls from people who were trying to encourage me because I really they realized the situation . My high school coach reached out to me . Um , my mom reached out to me and , uh , I couldn't get it back together in time . So I I had I had done enough deficit to my grades that I couldn't . Um , I couldn't pick up the pieces by the end of that fall semester , so I couldn't play . Um , I was off the team and it seemed like there was going to be some grace period for me that if I got it together I might be able to make it back . But , um , yeah , I was off and uh , I remember coming home that fall and my mom knew it , like she saw me , she saw her child . Um , just , I don't know , I mean I don't know what I looked like , but she , I remember her telling me she's like , yeah , I , I . And she told me she's like I'm not going to get it back . She's like I don't want you to go back to school . Um , she saw that it was , that whatever was going on there wasn't helping me at all . And , uh , she actually kind of laid it down . She's like , listen , I'm not going to financially support you to go back to school . Um , she hadn't been , she hadn't been able to give me a lot , but she was paying for my food and , uh , I was going off loans and everything else . And , um , I went against her advice and I went back , uh , for the spring semester of my soft sophomore year . And uh , man , I just remember how dark my life was at that point . Like it was , I had hardly went to class . Um , I was living off the Hope scholarship and , uh , some student loans that I'd taken out . And , um , I stopped paying my rent on my apartment so that I could continue to like , facilitate the lifestyle that I was living , uh , which was drinking as much as I could to kind of know what was going on , and smoking a bunch every day , paying way too much for the weed I was buying , um , but like just flying through money and uh , I got an eviction notice . Like fast forward , uh , I got an eviction notice from my apartment in sometime in April . But everything gets really convoluted here as far as like dates in my memory , because yeah . Uh , for a guy who's like exuberant and full of life as I am , I was probably clinically depressed at this point . Um , consider taking my life a few times . Just was in a really dark place . Um , I didn't know who I was and if I could find excitement in anything , whether it was , uh , relationship with the chick that who was , who was just as mentally unstable as I was . Um , and we were just in this , codependent , like , yeah , it was a terrible relationship , but , um , she would give me what I needed and I gave her what she needed , so that that that was . That was nasty there . But like I get this eviction notice and I had to come clean to my roommate like , hey , yeah , man , I haven't haven't paid rent for the last four months . Uh , yeah , we're probably going to get kicked out . Um , so that came down the tube . Um , you were , you were going to ask them .
Speaker 2Now I just remember I don't know when this was .
Speaker 5Oh yeah , the pocket for the pocket dials . Remember , pocket dials .
Speaker 2I don't know if it was a pocket dial as much as that Natalie got a phone call from you . Yeah . And you explained everything . And this is a vivid memory . What did this is ? This memory is I'm in my , my old bedroom in Nebraska and Natalie and I have been married for maybe three or four years and we didn't really know what was going on with you . And she got this phone call and she broke down crying . I don't think she cried with you on the phone , probably , but she got off the phone and she's like what is going on and we need to pray for my brother . I'm like what is going on ? She's like he's not on the team anymore . Yeah , it's kind of , and I think this was like long , but long after all this stuff happened , and so we started praying for you . Um , did you pocket dial her at some party ?
Speaker 5No , I pocket died you and I remember before .
Speaker 3I was like oh man , I'm on the phone with Richard right now .
Speaker 5I'm like in the middle of a club or something . I'm like , uh , yeah , I was , I was canceled , that I don't know . You were like , you were like the last contact on my list and I just caught pocket , dialed you . I was like , ah , I did it like two or three times . I'm surprised you didn't like to leave me from your contacts or whatever , but I remember . Just looking at my phone , it's funny . It was like , it was just like oh , I'm out . Oh , I recall Richard again , whoops . Um , yeah , that's funny yeah that's so what you , what the phone ? call that I gave to Natalie . That happens in a couple , like about a month later , from where we were at Like . So one night my buddies and I try this thing called DMT , which is like this , I don't know , hallucinogenic upper downer drug , all in the same thing . So like , we try this drug all together and we think it's a good idea to like pull up a YouTube channel that's going to help us hypnotize ourselves . And um , we're all doing this thing and it freaks me out , like I used to be this Christian little kid who knew the difference between dark and light , and I just heard a voice in my head that's not mine and definitely isn't the Holy Spirit , and like it freaked me out . So I ended up passing out of that house that night . I don't know , but I wake up in the middle of the night . It's like early February , maybe , like somewhere in March February . It was freezing cold . I got a t-shirt on and sweatpants and a pair of Nikes that don't fit me and I'm like I'm getting out of this place , like I've got to leave now . So , like middle of the night I'm just walking down the street . I don't know exactly where I'm going , but I got a good sense of where home , like the direction home is . And I remember walking down the street and like I just start begging . I was like God , I don't even know if , like you can hear me , I'm like I don't know if I've crossed the line , but like , if you can make me hate this stuff , like that's my only hope , like you've got to make me hate this . Because I could see that I felt like I crossed the line , like I felt like I had stepped into darkness to a place where I was . I was beyond redemption , I was beyond any hope . And I remember just begging , like this frigid kid walking down the street and I was just like and I remember just begging , god , like , make me hate this , but , as chance would have it , I thought for a second that I might be able to like fix the whole didn't pay rent for four months thing . I decided I was going to go get a job . So I was like I'm going to go get a job . So I'm going to go get a job at Home Depot . And Home Depot my interview goes great , like I've BSed it through the whole thing and I'd done some construction when I was younger . So like I'm up in there and they're like oh yeah , you're going to have to take a drug test . And I'm like , oh cool , I'll pass , I ain't going to pass . So they're like yeah , we'll process your thing and you have a week to take the drug test . And I'm like all right , cool . Or like a week or two , I don't know how long I was going to have . So I like quit cold turkey . Like so I stopped smoking , I anything that didn't come out of a 12 ounce bottle . I just stopped because I was like I've got like I'm going to get a job . Stopped because I was like I've got like , if I'm going to sustain this life that I've you know this , I wasn't even a life worth saving but like if I'm going to sustain what's going on here , like I got to make some money and I got to make money quick . So I was like looking for stuff around my apartment to sell . I was like I'm going to do this Right . So in this time that I'm not smoking weed every day and snorting coke or anything like , my brain starts clearing up and I really start getting a sense of like , oh , like this is deeper than I thought . It was . Like I'm in real trouble . Like like I would have just these mood swings and just like just feel crazy , like I felt really kind of insane and one . So I like I realized this isn't going to happen , like this isn't , like I'm not going to be able to do it . I actually never even went for the drug test because I kind of got clicked in my mind . It's like you just have to get out of this city . Like just gotta , you got to run , like you got to run . So I could call my mom one day and I was like , hey , mom haven't talked to my poor , my poor mother man . She must have been praying for me . My brother was praying for me , you guys are praying for me . And I was like , yeah , mom , and I kind of came clean to the extent like I need help . So I'm willing to come clean as far as I can to solicit your help , because I need a place to crash , basically Like I need to come home . So my mom , in the wisdom that is my mother , she's like , yeah , so before you come home , I'm going to need you to go find this little book called Steps to Christ and and read a little bit of it . And I'm like , oh yeah , I can do that , like sure , like I can go read this little , this little book , like what's that book going to do to me ? Like I knew I was in trouble but I thought I guess still in my mind I was like I can , I can , I can do this , like I can utilize the resources around me to to , to rescue myself . So I ended up printing like a PDF off the internet and , man , I read those first three chapters and you can imagine like , like the first ones , like about God's love for humanity , and like they , they , they broke me Like , they hit me hard . Like those three chapters like and I , I , I saw love for the first time in my entire life . I saw love that was genuine and was toward me and it was different than anything I'd ever heard . So , like , I called my mom one of these nights after I'd read a few chapters and like I , now I know I start really coming clean . Like mom , I stole money from you . Like mom , I , I , I was just telling her all the bad things I had done . I was saying I was sorry and somewhere in the middle of this conversation , like I get to the point where I realized that I couldn't hear the Holy Spirit anymore . I had known God's voice , that leading that , whether it was through my conscious or whatever it was that I understood as a young kid . But I was 20 years old , in this apartment , in a shambles of a life and I confess to my mom on the phone , it's like I can't hear God's voice anymore . I was terrified for my existence and I'm bawling , crying , and I'd come to the end of myself and in the stillness of the moment , the chaos of the moment , I just hear I'm here , clear Thursday , and man , I had peace , like real peace , and I'm just sitting there and I tell my mom what had just happened and he said I'm here . He said I'm here and I knew I had a hope and I think it was over the next few days . When I made that phone call to my brothers and sisters and I was like , hey , things really haven't worked out for me , but I'm going to try to get out of town . I just pray for me . That was kind of what . I sent out a few calls to those people who are closest to people who I probably had had in shambles . Like you said , my sister man , like Elias , just called me . I don't know what was going on . We just got pray , sent out a few phone calls and my brother came down . Man , my brother Anthony . He came down with this little Toyota pickup . We take his stuff out of my apartment and , like throwing away my little grow house that I had in my closet , thrown in the dumpster and all this other stuff . Don't worry , the statute of limitations is well passed , we're good .
Speaker 2Did you ever feel condemned by any of your family members ? Or you just felt like man , they really got me , they've got my back .
Speaker 5Any love that I experienced I didn't deserve in my mind at that point . So anything that I received from anybody prayers were encouragement , like I didn't deserve it . So I knew that it was love . I don't know if you I may not have understood the depth of how much I'd hurt them or how much stress I'd put them through , but anything I was receiving at that point is like I don't deserve any of this . I was making deals with Satan and y'all still love me , like you're willing to take me in , you're praying for me , yeah , so my brother comes to rescue me . I get home , I end up having scabies because I slept in the wrong bed somewhere and my mom's checking my body for scabies . She's like we gotta burn all your clothes . You ain't even bringing scabies into my house . And like he finds out . Yeah , I had gotten attacked too , but my mom's so gracious , like I don't know , she just opened her house to me and maybe it's a mother's love , and maybe it's something that's unexplainable , but she's just like yeah , come on , you're coming home . And so , like for the next , for the rest of that spring I really don't know when it was that I came home I just worked at my mom's house because I felt guilty . Right , I was loaded down with guilt . I was breathing air that I knew I didn't . At that point I was convinced I didn't deserve so . Like I was doing anything for her , like we were doing house projects , I was doing lawn work , I was helping her upkeep her property and like although my motives were probably somewhat twisted and like still looking out for me . That time was super therapeutic for me because it separated me from all those influences that were trying to destroy me , literally destroy the life that I had , and I had clarity and I was working my butt off like sweating for a good reason right and my brain starts to get clear and clear , and clear . And yeah , that's that summer I was sitting in this little meeting and there's an altar call and I was like , yeah , I'm giving my life to Jesus . Like no holding back , like all to Jesus , I surrender was like the theme song of this camp meeting that GYC was putting on and man . I was like , yeah , like he rescued me , he's like he's restored like my sanity to me and I have peace because of him . And yeah , I was like , of course , like , oh , you guys , I get to come down again . Like they get like three or four altar calls in one weekend and I'm going down for like every one of them . I'm like , yeah , like Jesus is awesome , like you have no idea what I've been through , but he still loves me . And yeah , like I'm in , like I'm like I got to the point where , like the rest of this , what the world could offer me , didn't touch it , like it was an empty . It was an empty well and there was no water there . And it was clear to me like , so , from that point , like , yeah , it was me and Jesus , I don't know if I really understood what I was getting into . I was very desperate . How old were you ? How old were you ? That was the summer I turned 21, . So all the craziness I've done in my life was all underaged .
Speaker 2So the motive was just like oh , wretched man that I am , who can save me from this ? And it was . Jesus and you were like okay , he was there in that room . He said I'm here , I'm still loved by him , and so you just saw his kindness in that way .
Speaker 5Yeah , it was kindness that drew me in , drew me in enough to see contrast , right Like I was , you know , like the children of Israel when they got rescued from Pharaoh , like I had been a slave and someone was extending to me love , but I was still had the mindset of a slave to that . So like I still had the works based . What I do brings me value . All that was still present in my life , but like the contrast to serving myself and Satan was so dark compared to the light that I saw in the love of Christ . But to kind of give you an illustration of where I was understanding the Father's love at that point was something that actually my wife told me yesterday that really made sense to me . She was talking about the prodigal son and she said you know , the prodigal son asked that his dad would die so that he could have the inheritance and the father extends to the son the inheritance and forgiveness , for anything that the son did with the inheritance , like in the giving of the inheritance , was also forgiveness . And I didn't understand that . I had no clue of that kind of Father's love . I actually admired the mindset of the son when he came back because he was willing to be a servant because he didn't deserve it . I admired that Like . I admired like that mindset of like I don't deserve to be here , but Grace has put me here , but I got to have the mindset that I'm going to work because it's extended , like God's extended so much toward me and my value is in my ability to do right . So that's like the , that's the channel which I lived . Then I live here by grace , right ? You know , that was my understanding . Was that like I should have the mindset of the boy coming home who says , dad , I've sinned before you and I'm before heaven and I'm no longer worthy because your son make me like one of your hired servants . Like I thought that was admirable . Years later I realized it wasn't at all and it was this slavery mindset that was still sticking to him , that he had picked up while he was in this foreign country . And I think I've struggled with that for probably like the last , like 10 years , yeah , 10 years of my life . And so held on to the working mindset Go ahead .
Speaker 2The word forgive , it's two words it's , it's , it's broken down and it's backwards means give for . So what does our father give for our mistake ? Well , he gives righteousness for our mistake . So when we're forgiven , instead of living with the mistake , in exchange for that mistake he gives us righteousness . So the prodigal son comes back and he gets the robe of righteousness and he puts it on .
Speaker 5I didn't put it on .
Speaker 2Go on . Yeah , I got . No , you were you . You're still the slave . But the gospel isn't just you messed up and now you get to work to deserve it , even though you didn't deserve it . Now you get to work to deserve it . That is not the gospel . The gospel is you messed up and you have been given righteousness , so put on the robe and be righteous , yep , but we didn't get that .
Speaker 5We didn't . I don't know how we missed it .
Speaker 2We didn't get this went over the head . So you're on fire . You're on fire . You've gone up for every single altar . Call you that you've gone from from death to life at that point .
Speaker 5Yeah , I feel like I know that I have what was going on after that . So , like , how did you know after that , like the weekend , that I commit my life to Christ ? Like the very next week , like I'm involved in jail ministries , like the very next week , like I'm learning how to give people Bible studies right ? So there are this group of guys in the church at that time who , like I admired because they could argue with people and prove to them that the , that the Bible was right . So , like I start running with these guys and they're , you know , they're teaching me how to do , you know , point by point , bible studies , to ask rhetorical questions that put the here in a place where they can only accept what the Bible is saying , to the question that they've asked , and learning how to argue people into making decisions based off of things that I can convince them in the Bible . And that's that's a cold way of saying it , I think , but that's what I admired . Like those are the points that I admired , like these people were smart enough and tactful enough and they knew their Bible enough that . And so I get caught up with this group . I'm doing , like , jail ministries with them . Like I said , we're doing Bible studies with people , and I remember my first Bible study with somebody were terrible , like absolutely atrocious , because I was trying to argue with them , like I was arguing , trying to argue with him about I only remember like it was some like moot point in Revelation , I don't know , but like I admired that and like a lot of my life was built around . You know , do I have an argument big enough to conquer what's going on with me personally ? Hmm , yeah , and can I build , based that argument around what the Bible says ? So a lot of it was like logical proof points . But then , at the same time , like I'm living out life , so like I have an exuberance that I hadn't experienced in a long time . I was , you know , in practicality , on the outside , like man I'm . I'm now able to love people and care for people and I'm giving up to get part of , get , be part of all these things of people helping people . And I get a what happened ? First ? My brother , anthony the engineer , right , he , he goes with Adventist frontier missions for like this two week work overseas mission thing and he builds a bridge , like , and he comes back he's got these miracle stories about how the supplies were there and I'm like , oh , that's awesome . And he had left this like recruitment video from AFM when he had left and I was like , yeah , that's a way that I can work . Missionaries are heroes , right , like they're heroes of this Christian . You know this Christian world . Of course I'm , I'm capable Like I . Why wouldn't God want me in the mission field ? Right , like I'm young , I'm exuberant , I got a lot to give . So , like I signed up with AFM and I'd worked for a few years I paid off all those debts Like we'd actually like we got evicted from our apartments , whatever . So all those debts I'd been able to pay off and I was in a good place , at least like I didn't have any financial liabilities . So , yeah , so all that God's grace covered , like we were able to get past all that stuff . But the rest of that spring things I don't know , not really worthwhile to mention did a lot of fundraising and I was just blown away that people were giving me thousands of dollars to go be a student missionary for a year . Went to training for AFM really good experiences . A couple of really like genuine Christians kind of intersected my path . That while I was there , and helped me see God's love toward me in a way that didn't make sense until a few years later . But so I went off as a student missionary , ended up staying two years in the Philippines . I served among an indigenous people who , you know some of them still wore grass skirts . I lived in this little bamboo hut in the middle of the jungle . Sometimes I felt like I was vacationing and the rest of the time it was really hard work . I was a math teacher Two years . And yeah , I was there for two years . How much time did you come back ?
Speaker 2How many times did you come back in those two years ?
Speaker 5One time .
Speaker 2What man ? This is hard , I don't even remember .
Speaker 5I came back .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 5So I was a student missionary for two years and I came back one time for a couple of weeks on a furlough and while I was there a couple real like I learned that Christ could be my consolation in life if I had no other friends . Up until that point I really had valued myself on my acceptance , that other people accepted me , and that was what gave me value , like through friendships or like through doing things for other people . But I learned while I was there that , like I could have no other friends in the whole wide world but having Jesus I was perfectly fine and that was the first time that I really like I wasn't valuing other people's opinions of me as highly as I had previously . But a lot of that time while I was in the mission field was a lot of like I was working for God because God needed me to work for him and I was a really good worker Right Like I learned the language . I really think the Holy Spirit like fulfilled that you will speak in tongues . Like I learned the language quick and I was speaking the language , this native language within about six months and I was able to converse with people . I was helping , I was leading people to Christ and it was really impactful , like I was . I was being a missionary Right and I was feeling what I thought was like the culmination of usefulness in Christ until the end of my experience in the mission field . So within the two last months that I was there , a couple of real crazy things happened to me . We had this situation with one of our students in our school and there was a group of kids who were possessed by all . You know all evidences , you know things , you read in the Bible . You understand this is a battle against the rulers of darkness , and these kids had surrendered to darkness and were being tormented . And there were nights count like not actually counting nights but there was nights after nights of protecting these kids from like running into walls , jumping into fires , jumping off of the side of these . You know these dot tags , what they recall , but like the , the place where people slept and it was open around the outside . But they try to jump off and you're trying to like protect these kids because they're fleeing from darkness , and so that was the first time that I really experienced that and it wore me out . So I was pretty worn out doing this . You're praying constantly , you're singing songs over them , you're claiming promises , you're working really hard and you know it . It changed the situation for some of these kids , like your claiming promises and prayers , and , by God's grace , they come out of it right . They come out of these dark situations . I don't know , I don't know . I don't want to tell too many stories tons of stories from the mission field that were really impactful for me , but for me personally , there was one more . There was two more situations that happened right before I left . There was a kid who came to my house who didn't like a decision we had made and he threatened me with a machete , like he was going to , he was going to chop me , that he was going to get me right . And if it wasn't for one of my neighbors who came by , who came by and like , held his arm back , like do was going to come after me with his machete , and I was completely defenseless , like I was wrapped up in this little thing called a thajun , basically like a blanket , and I was just wrapped up in my front porch and we're just chatting and then , like split second , this guy goes into straight , like I'm going to dice you up with this machete and like I'm shaking , like can't , couldn't hike on the trail that night at dark because I was afraid he was going to jump out from behind the tree and get me like deeply shaken . I had to be , I had to be like escorted out of the mountains because there was basically a death threat toward me . And you know , later on we we got news that this kid had told a bunch of his friends that he was going to like I don't know , he was going to splay out my organs in the sun and let them dry in the sun and a bunch of other stuff . And I remember the craziness of the situation was that we're all sitting around and somebody tells me this news and Holy Spirit , like , says , speaks through me . I didn't even believe this , but Holy Spirit speaks , speaks , sees me , he's like and I just said it I was like that kid is not our enemy and it was so impactful to me that I even heard my own words of like I was scared of my scared senseless , of this kid who was going to . Yeah , I felt like he was going to kill me , but he wasn't my enemy Like he was being motivated by darkness and that kid's not my enemy . So we didn't need to like . I don't know . We were trying . They were suggesting that we pursue a bunch of legal things against them , but I don't even know if we could have done that . So we ended up going back into the mountains . After that the career missionaries left for furlough and left me in charge . I'm pretty shooken . Later on I deal with some symptoms that are similar to PTSD , but I don't experience that until later . But I'm not 100% stable . But I get left in charge as the leading student missionary there for the next two months . Right , the last two months that I'm going to be in the Philippines is the end of my last two years . So I hiked across the island to go visit a little outreach post that we had done on the other side of the island . Like climb up over these 6,000 foot mountains from sea level to sea level , like this 12 hour hike . It was extremely fun , but on the way back I had contracted malaria and halfway back like it's just hitting me really hard . I ended up having malaria a number of times in the mission field , but this was the worst . So I'm coming back . Joints are hurting . I'm exhausted . I barely make it back to where the missionaries are . They started to try to treat me . And in the time that I'm gone , some Muslim sympathizers are trying to recruit in the area and are being hostile toward us as missionaries . So we take our whole group and just evacuate out of the mountains . I was in a bad place and they're just like we just need to get you to the hospital . And at the same time another one of the missionaries had gotten oh what did he have Another tropical illness . But he and I were in the hospital together and I'm on an IV drip 24-7 receiving malarial medicines . And he was in two beds over for me in this big ward of people . And one day I look over and he's not there . And then the next minute there's a guy banging on the bathroom door in this ward and blood's coming out from underneath the door . My buddy , this other missionary , had tried to commit suicide because I don't know . Somewhere in this illness Satan had brought back to him this memories of his past and had just reigned on him these ideas that he wasn't forgiven and like dude's trying to kill himself with a pair of scissors in the bathroom . And all of these things together are just like beating down on me because I'm the leader right , like I'm the leading student missionary , I'm the one who's left in charge and like things are in shambles , right , our team , we're all in the lowlands . We're not even close to the mission field that we're supposed to be serving in . We're completely detached from that and I don't even really remember how I was making it through every day , but we slowly are . And I remember one night we were sitting down for worship and this girl does a Bible study about Satan and his devices and I just remember that was the last thing I needed to hear . At that point I was pretty aware of his devices and I remember just like I remember just this black cloud , just like surrounding me . I was just in this hammock and like I couldn't breathe and like I'm just surrounded by death and blackness and like emptiness and they're praying over me and I remember them singing songs over me and I ended up coming out of it Like that's the end of my experience as a student missionary . And , like I said , I'd gone to the mission field because I was useful to God . Right , I was useful , I was young , exuberant , I had energies , I had a smart mind that I had been gifted through I don't know man . I went back after I came out of college and I started to read my Bible Like my brain was just gifted intelligence that I'd never had before . I leave the mission field 100% burnt out . I resented , I started to resent God and become really cynical because I felt like I had been used , used . I couldn't cut it , I couldn't do what I had gone to the mission field to do and I was just being pushed aside because I couldn't do . I couldn't utilize grace and the gifts that he had given me enough to be able to do the things in the mission field that he had called me to do . And I was like , well , here's another experience of being used and not being good enough . So I come back from the mission field and I was dating one of the other missionaries who had left the year before and she was like , yeah , let's get serious , let's make commitments to each other , let's pursue this thing . And I'm like what ? I have no frame of reference to being able to get into a serious relationship because I'm just . I remember I got a little job after I came back from the mission field and I remember so many times I was like in this woodworking shop and the walls closing in on me . I get really smothered , can hardly breathe , have to run outside , take some breaths . I prayed and then I would be able to go on with work and this would just happen from time to time . But for the next two years , maybe a year and a half , maybe about a year and a half , I really just resented God . I kept on doing the things I knew I should do . I'd go to church , but on the outside right . So the outside I put on a pretty good front . I'd go and I'd tell mission stories . I'd tell you some of them , some of the stories I was telling you . I would put a smile on . But man , it was like even up until last year , when I would tell those stories , I'd be like , hey , babe , I tell my wife , hey , I'm gonna tell a little bit about my testimony from the mission field , and she would know that that morning wasn't gonna go good . I would just get covered in the shame and the regret . But I knew people were encouraged by mission field stories , right . But to me they were trauma , the shame and regret .
Speaker 2What was the shame and regret ? For , specifically , you were the leader in the last couple months . What was the main shame ? And regret Just that .
Speaker 5I've never esteemed myself as anything less than a really good team player . If we're choosing teams , you bet it's a smart idea to choose me right . I felt like that's what God saw in me too , so that when I was chosen to go as a student missionary and I failed , I was like why did you even send me in the first place ? I shouldn't have even been there if you knew I couldn't cut it , if you knew I couldn't work , if I couldn't do the things there that you needed me to do , then why would you ever send me ? Because now I've come back from the mission field darker than I'd ever really felt and felt like I knew more than I'd ever known . Knowledge wasn't getting me there , but I regretted having gone along with it to an extent . I went to my sister's wedding and I remember we were up in this church and somebody said something and I was just said this snarky comment about God and I was like whoa , like that just came from my mouth . But it really showed where I was at , like I resented God because I thought he had used me Like yeah , I'm really not . Did that make sense ? I know , like in , I'm not . I'm . Wouldn't be surprised if , like Other student missionaries who go like , feel the same way . Like Some , a lot of the student mission I've talked to have had negative responses in the mission field and I don't know what the solution is . The solution is Understanding our true identity in Christ and getting free . Like that's a solution . Right , it's not going into these situations as if you're trying to earn something or prove something , but because you have nothing to prove , right , that he's proven you and you are worthy and acceptable on his site . Like that's a solution . But a bunch of kids come back from the missionary mission field and they're like , like you know , they stood toe-to-toe with Satan and didn't know who they were . Like , think about that . Like they still , they stood toe-to-toe in the ground where they thought Satan owned it and they didn't know who they were .
Speaker 2So what were the lies then ? That you were believing that that put you in that place ? Oh , Yo .
Speaker 5So remember , I told you the story about the guy who tries to commit suicide , right , he comes out of the bathroom , they get him stable , they have him on this bed and I go over to him and like , hey , man , how are you doing ? Like , how are you doing ? And he said to me he's like , don't lose . Like , um , keep fighting for your faith , or something like that . Like , keep like , don't lose hold of faith . And I didn't realize it . But like this guy's , like he's not mentally stable , right , and I don't know who's speaking through him . But like that lie like penetrates me , like I feel like it's my responsibility to maintain faith . And I took that on because I look at this guy who had lost faith in a struggle and his advice to me was don't lose your faith . So like in this whole thing , like I feel like it's my job to like sustain faith Crazy , it's impossible . Like you can't do it . It's a gift . Faith is a gift authored and perfected by Jesus . Right , that's a lie . It's a lie that I have to work to have faith . Um , let's see what was another lie , oh , yeah , yeah . So another thing that came from the mission field . I was introduced to this quote that said , the life of Christ's followers will be like his a series of uninterrupted victories , not seen as such here , but recognized as such in the great hereafter Right . So I was introduced to this quote that said like , although it's not apparent , everything that's happens in the Christian life is victory in Christ . Right , and this is like straight along the lines of like the gospel , but it came to a mind that was focused on doing it on his own . So , like , it comes to my mind and I'm like bent on working to earn grace and to prove grace I shouldn't say earn grace , I'm working to prove grace , right . So like , even I can work really , really hard to prove that grace is a good thing . And when I mess up , don't worry , victory will come in the end . It might not be apparent , apparent and I might not feel it , but it'll come in the end . But I don't , I don't think I'm deserving of it . I don't know it's . It's really twisted because it all , it had all the right words in it , right , that doesn't have the right words , like the right idea to it , but it's like it's twisted with this self-sufficiency .
Speaker 2I hear what you're saying and it reminds me of two , two things . I don't know where we were it must have been one somebody's wedding or something and you and I went to the wedding and you and I went to the Walmart or something together , and Before this I didn't know Any of the trauma that you had gone through personally . I didn't know how it affected you , but we're sitting in the car and we're talking about something and it became so apparent that you were going to protect yourself at all costs that you couldn't let oh yeah . That you couldn't let walls down because you were going to protect yourself . And then the other thing that comes to mind Is that one of the reasons , and probably the main reason and you tell me if I'm wrong , and I'm fine being wrong about this that you went to the mission field to do all of this stuff is because somewhere , maybe not even deep Is that you still felt that you weren't forgiven for all of this stuff and to get out of the stuff . This is the way to get out of the stuff and earn my forgiveness . And when the stuff is happening and you're out here earning your forgiveness , it's hitting you Like it is not hitting you correctly because you're motive to be there While is , in your mind , a good thing because you've been saved and so this is how you're gonna Earn your salvation . It's it's hitting you wrong Because your motive is wrong and All of this is coming from marks Like damage that has been done to you In your life , and now it's manifesting in bad motives and it's manifesting in I've got to protect myself . What do you think ?
Speaker 5yeah , so way to illustrate that Somewhere in the time that I'm there in the mission field , my dad Decides he's gonna be a missionary too . I don't know if you remember this , I do remember . But like yeah , so like , I'm over there , proven my manhood to god Right . Like god , I am what you have Created me to be . Like I'm over there , proven it right . I'm over there working real hard to show it off . And I get this phone call . Yo , your dad has pretty much dropped everything in america , called us from hawaii and is coming to the mission field , is gonna come to , like , serving the lowlands where you're at . You know that that was crazy . So why ? Why is it crazy ? Why was it crazy ? Like everybody , I like somebody . Like , if you were a mission in the mission field and you heard your dad was coming , you'd be like oh man , my dad's coming , like he's gonna . You know , he's gonna give me that connection to home . It's gonna be so exciting . But I don't know how to say this like I don't know what to say . Spirit speak .
Speaker 2Were you mad that he was there . Were you happy he was there . Were you like why is this dude doing this now ? Like what was your feet , what , what , what did it hit you when you heard he was coming ?
Speaker 5It threw me back to the time where I was succeeding in soccer and he wasn't there , right , I was succeeding in something back then that he didn't approve of , right , and his presence at that time to me wasn't . I was kind of like , yeah , cool , it's not something you want to be part of , but at least be proud of me , right , at least be like You're doing good , son . But I had become a missionary and that was something my dad valued . Um , and this was my personal like . This was this is stuff that I was like projecting on my , my father . I don't even know if it's true , but like I felt like he valued me being a Christian more than he valued me . Um , and I was over there , like proving that I was a man and he was going to interrupt it and that his presence somehow was gonna take away my opportunity to prove myself . And he was coming over there and I remember , like Spirit spoke to me this evening , that that night because I'm sitting there and I just got in the phone call that day that everybody else was like , what's going on ? I'm like I'm gonna do my best to figure out when he gets here what's going on . Um , oh , my brother and sister didn't mention me , but like we're we're singing Um day by day I don't know if you've ever heard this him , but it's like day by day and with each passing moment , and it talks about the father to child relationship and like I was convicted in that moment that I had done a lot of this to prove something to my dad . Oh wow , you know , somewhere in the middle of my confusion , I I had done a lot of this , going to be a missionary , going to you know , be religious and be a good arguer and be a good christian , so that I could earn something from my dad . But the moment that I received I was going to receive any affirmation , I was resistant because it was nullifying my ability to do it on my own . You kind of you know what I'm getting at . I don't know if I really said that clear .
Speaker 2No , what ? What I'm hearing is I'm out here trying to do this thing , to show that I'm this thing , and there's a mixed bag of resentfulness because oh , now you're showing up when , when I'm doing this , and you didn't show up then . And how am I going to prove it if you're here ?
Speaker 5Yeah , and he came . I walked to him with open arms . Uh , his support was appreciated . We , we got to have some real cool father son . But , like on that night , god convicted me . He's like you're not proving anything to your dad . He showed his fatherly love toward me . I don't really know the depth of what it was , but I realized that I didn't need to prove anything to my dad . I was . I , I was set free from Some of the insecurities that I was hearing from my family about His presence , coming him coming to see me , like him just dropping everything in America and potentially putting himself at risk and not valing it , valing his family's opinion and all that . Like , I got set free from that that night . I was no longer proving anything to my dad and that allowed me to welcome him with open arms , um , understanding that he was probably the same boat . I was just a christian looking to do christian things right , like that's . That's how I received it . But , like I saw , I could see my dad's humanity at that point , attached , detached from Having to prove anything , um , and I think in that moment it was , it was definitely spirit that allowed me to , to know that that's , that I was free from his expectations , free from proving anything to him , um , and then I could just treat him like a brother in christ . Um , and that was one of the most impactful things for me there , but that's the was kind of the baggage that I was carrying there , like this chip on my shoulder . I got to prove myself resentment , um , and when it , when it had an object to direct it toward , toward my dad , it came to the surface and , um , yeah , praise the lord , like at that moment , like I was like , yeah , my daddy is , is my heavenly father , not , not , not , uh , not , steven groft it was . It was freeing , um , but now I don't know where we're at . I don't know where we're at in the story , uh , home . Yeah .
Speaker 2You're , you're doing the ptsd thing when you're working . You still have a low key resentfulness towards god for taking you out there . Um I what you , uh , you end up Getting married . I don't know how how long ? Between you getting back and then you get .
Speaker 5Yeah , yeah , I was transitioned to that . So , like , um , on top of coming back , like I told you , I had been dating that girl and like I was unfit to be in a committed relationship , I was just an emotional mess , really confused about who I was and I wasn't About to pull somebody else into that . So the relationship that I have with , uh , this young lady that we had met in the mission field and I'd come back and we pursued this relationship , um , it fizzled , um kind of ended hard and uh , over the next like six state months , I was like Like relationships in me , like let's , let's just not like , like let's just not pursue anything . Um , and I , I made it was a pretty , it was a pretty intentional decision because I didn't know , I didn't want to , I couldn't commit to somebody at that point because I was still sorting through what had happened to me . So , um , uh , fast forward . It's kind of cool , it's kind of crazy . Like the like camp meeting is oftentimes for me like a , like a , like a transition , so can't meeting again the next year . There's this girl and I'm like , hey , what's up ? Like whoa , like you and me , like we , we vibe pretty cool and we hung out a couple times when I realized I was like , oh , like , I've healed a lot . And at camp meeting that year there's this guy that I really realized how much I healed when . So he was going through Daniel and he came to this point in Daniel , um , and again I get clicked , I get tipped off by logical things like Bible knowledge like this , always usually like a tipping point , and then God's always like I love you though I mean , that's why I'm telling you this Um , but like he comes to this point in revelation , or not in revelation , but in Daniel , and he's like and and Judgment was made in favor of the saints and like . This is the first time I'd ever heard that like Judgment was made in favor of me , like , not against me , like I , wasn't that some ? Somewhere before the second coming Judgment was made in favor of me and then I was . I don't know if I'd taken on the mentality of like I'm a saint , but like , um , yeah , like , and I . I realized in receiving that knowledge that I was like man , I I'm not as broken as I was a year ago at this point . Uh , I'm not as like , like , terribly confused about who I am anymore . Like , wow , and and it was just kind of a moment for me that that relation , my relationship with Christ . Um , he was kind of wooing me back , although I had had some really twisted views Of what had happened in the mission field . He was , he was healing me , he was bringing me back to himself in a way that I didn't understand , um , but like so I'd had . So that that camp meeting , there was this girl and we were kind of talking and I was like wait , wait , pause , like time out , time out . Like If , uh , if I'm getting back into the dating game and it's not going to be a game this time like uh , there's one girl who Needs to know that , before anybody else um has a chance to Uh interact with me , and that was Gabby . Um , over the year Previous to that , we just been in a common friend group . We'd hung out a lot , um , I'd become really good friends with her older brother . Uh , gabby is now my wife , but like I'd , I'd been chatting with this other girl and I realized I was like , hold the horses , if I'm available , she needs to know . Like I didn't know why , but like she needed to know . So , over the next couple years , like yeah , I mean , our story's an awesome one , um , and it just gets get better . It gets better by the day , man , like my marriage is awesome , like Amazing , it hasn't always been that way .
Speaker 2So , but it seems like the ride up to the wedding . It seems like the ride up to the wedding , um , from the outside looking in , you'd come back , you had this , these issues you're healed , you and her are . You know you're together and it just it seems like things are Going super well and you're kind of comfortable in your own skin again and you're comfortable with who you are Uh , am I off about that ? And you guys got married .
Speaker 5Yeah , like , yeah , pretty much riding up until the marriage . Uh , like we , we went when we like , like all dating couples , I guess we we had some times where we're like , oh , did we just cross the line ? Like Sexually we'd never crossed the line before marriage . That I wasn't comfortable with . I felt like those things from my past Um , I didn't really mention it because I don't know if it really is worth mentioning , but , like you know , I'd I had given myself away sexually so many times that it wasn't even funny and not just like one night stand kind of things , but like submitted my heart to another person and leverage sexual gain from somebody else . Um , going all the way back to like when I was in high school , so like I had made a habit of it up until when christ rescued me , and actually even after christ had rescued me in college , I still met up with a girl from down in memphis , just because I was still confused . Um , so like there was there , there were some deep like relational . On top of getting affirmation for what I could do , there was Some relational things that I still hadn't really sorted through . But I knew that christ didn't see me in those ways and so that in my marriage I was giving myself as Purity from him to my wife . I had no problem with that right . Um , I knew that there was , that purity had been gifted me from christ and that's what I was going to my marriage . So I didn't feel like I was . I was carrying the baggage from my past in that aspect . Um , so , like we do this premarital counseling , we get introduced to this thing called the five love languages and I'm not harping on the guy right , the book dude that guy has I don't know if you've ever listened any of his stuff , but he has helped a lot of marriages . And we , we bought into it , like wholeheartedly , five love languages , like found out that my love language was affirmation and physical touch and that hers was like quality time and acts of service . And then we , we enter into what I learned to be later , like this contractual exchange of you love me so that I'll feel loved and that I can love you Through the things you're doing for me . Um , it's , it's not how it comes out , but that's how it worked out in our relationship . Maybe we're unique , but I don't know if we are right . Um , maybe the baggage that we her and I brought into our marriage Was the perfect storm for it to work out that way , but it became . It became an exchange , an appeasement , if you would , that I can do for you so that you'll love me Um , and that's what it really worked out with . But we didn't see that at first . We saw it as a really good , practical way to be able to initiate conversations , to be able to bring these two life experiences together , and marriage and she had her life experience with their family and her expectations of what a family looked like , and I had mine , and together we were going to be able to put this thing together and because we knew each other's love language , we could keep each other's love tank full so that we could have a happy home Right . Yeah , I think so a lot of our marriage .
Speaker 2I think that's how we see it , but we don't say it Um , but that's how it nah now , we would have never met . In theory it it's . It doesn't look like that , and I'm sure the guy who wrote the book and he's made a lot of money off that book I'm sure he would never say , oh well , that's how it goes . But in practice that's how it goes , and with the double-mindedness , with double-mindedness , that's how it goes . So I don't want to .
Speaker 1The same as you don't , we don't want to throw them under the bus .
Speaker 2But the theory and the practice are . It seems like it's two different things when it comes to that book or the love and respect book or whatever , um , the stuff that people read , and it just positions them Not to really love , not not to do you like you're keeping a little bit of record there or Someone has to be your loved this way and it and it kind of makes you a little self-centered , like I'm loved this way and , like I said , that's the theory . That's not the theory , but it turns out being the practice . So it puts the expectation on your spouse .
Speaker 5Like , so , how , how did that work out for me and gabby ? Right , um , as far as and I'm I'm just going to tell you how it worked out for us so , like , my , my love language was words of affirmation , right , so , like , what's the worst thing gab could do to me Was make fun of me in public , right , like , really throw a hard zinger in there and just Make my face turn red in front of people I respected . That's the worst , like , and she knew that . Right , she knew that because we had we'd explained this to each other , we had taken the survey , right , she knew the one way to hurt me is to do this . But , like you said you're coming . I came into this double-minded , with a convoluted way of receiving that . So , like , hey , it happens , right , gabby , we're just joking around . She's a she's a hilarious person , although she's an introvert and man , she can find the funniness in a situation and , like , she'll whisper it to somebody , right , and she drops bombs . But so , like it happens , right , gabby makes fun of me in front in public , um , and I'm , like You've betrayed the agreement . Right , silent , I shut down , no talking for me , like If we're in a group of friends , like I might be cordial , hold to her the rest of the night , but there I know in my mind I'm going to bring her back to that moment and make sure she knows that I was hurt , right ? So Gabby realized gabby's very insightful right . She sees that , oh , the thing that I wasn't supposed to do , I did and I've , I've , I've , insulted him in public in unintentionally . We were joking around and I didn't trust my wife's heart that she had my best interest in mine at that point . I didn't . And it shows because , like , we get into the conversation later and I'm like hey , um and she but she probably would have been the one to initiate it because she had her own and she could probably tell you more about it too , but she had her own , like Felt , responsible for my happiness . Hmm took personal , deep responsibility for my happiness . So , like she kind of me and she would try to say affirming things to Nullify the incident , the accident , words that came out before right , and I would receive them as and I would call her out and be like that's cheap praise . Hmm . That's what you're supposed , that's what you're supposed to say . Right , that's not genuine . When from her heart it 100 it was she realized that she in her heart , she was probably genuinely loving me , seeing , seeing that I was hurt or offended or whatever , and she was trying to love me . But I was like that's cheap praise , so I shut , I would shut her down and then anything that would kill my way . I've gotten really self-centered or whatever , and that's how that like that worked out time and time and time again . And then , on the physical end , man , if we weren't being intimate , then Like I remember , I don't know , like you , you know that that phrase , you know , don't go to bed angry . They don't tell you that arguments are at like 11 o'clock . Like You're like , oh , like , oh , we just laid down , oh , wait , I'm not satisfied . And then like , and yeah , man , I like . I remember there were times where I , like , I was like I'm just gonna go for a run . Like , like you don't understand it , you don't get it . We've had this conversation a thousand times . I got sexual needs and you're not satisfying them . I'm just gonna go for a run Like we , we , we agreed with this . Like earlier that night , I would even say , like I watched the dishes , like I did all these acts of service , like I would almost I don't know if I really admit it , but I would be like , yeah , I did the things I was supposed to do To get . Now it's time for intimacy . Yeah , like we , this is it , and , whether I would admit it out out loud or not , like that's how we existed a lot . Often for a while , and you can only do that so long right .
Speaker 2Oh , it's just baggage , it's old .
Speaker 5Yeah , yeah it is . And every time , like you know , I'm learning now that , like , the more we submit to a lie , the easier it is that we get tripped up on that lie . And I'm not saying to us because we're we see them now . We were blessed , we have the Holy Spirit who shows us lies and speaks truth . But until I know that the Holy Spirit is speaking the the times I submitted to that lie and held on to Um my rights or I am , I have the right to be , I have the right , the right . The more I held on to those rights , the deeper the lie took root and the easier it was for that lie to sound like truth and cue me up . To hold on to rights of what I've learned is a dead guy mercy and Yo it and it , just it would cycle up . So like that's kind of how we , that's how we existed for a while and we were on the outside like they wouldn't tell anybody that , like you wouldn't tell anybody , yeah , like we're both unsatisfied . I'd go to amount of the time , but the times we , you know , the times where it clicks , it's good and I'd written that off . Like you know , gabby , during school year , I'd like their school year , my wife during the school year . She's a teacher and I'd be like she gets stressed out . Those nine months I'm like I don't come , I just I do my thing , like I get what I , I'll take what I get , and then the summer like I get my wife back , and so we lived that for a while .
Speaker 2I had . I had no idea . Yeah , I had no idea . It just seems like From the outside , because we don't live in the same state you guys were just like your wedding was awesome . There was just so much it . It all seemed like if you guys were putting up the smoke and mirrors . Uh , it was effective . I had no idea that anything like that was going on , that you guys were in because you were on fire for the lord she's you know , god-fearing woman .
Speaker 5Neither did we . We didn't understand that that was going on either . We thought that that was how it was supposed to be , mercy , right like . So you're right , like . But we just thought , like this is what marriage is gonna be , we're in it . Like the good times are good , like they were good , like there were times where you , her and I , we have so much in common , like we , we love our , our hobbies , like Tip for tat , we're huge outdoor people , we would go backpacking , we'd go rock climbing , do all these things together , and like those times were good . I'm just telling you about the realistic behind the scenes that nobody saw that really Knocked out the good times , because they put a twist on the good times . Right , they put they . There was still that twist and I'm not saying that it was all bad saying didn't rule in our marriage . He had footholds but he didn't rule because , I mean , we , we were , we were in christ , mm-hmm . Did we understand it ? No , but like Jesus still ruled our home , like we still were walking in grace , like there was , like there was love in our home , but there were strongholds and there were some lies . Uh , yeah , like up until this spring , um , we had a baby , oh , a little gunison , our love produced another human life . Uh , little gunison like comes into our world this january and man , he rocks our world like he is awesome , but at the same time , he Taking care of him Brings to surface a lot of this mercy like we now . We now are Taking care of . Like they sent us home with a baby , what ? And now we need to be a functional unit to take care of another life and a lot of this stuff starts coming to the surface . Um , not Not in a way that we can deal with it , but in a way that we're just struggling with it , right , um , because we are struggling to keep this baby alive . Right , we're sleepless nights from time to time . We're we're doing our thing , but we just think like this is what we got to do , like Having children is a blessing from the lord right , like we're doing the thing we got to do . Um , yo , and then covet hits and I'll lose my job . Yeah , yeah , how'd you do I get this phone call ? So I get this phone call and I was good , but I wasn't . I was still working , right , and by me I mean working , I mean like I was still proving myself , I was still taking on myself the need to generate a facade , at best , of an existence that was doing good , doing good , right . So I went back to school , got a job as a PTA and was doing good . I was providing for my family , was doing good , right . I was keeping my wife happy , we had food on the table . I was teaching Sabbath school . I was a good Christian . I was , you know . I was a respectable person in my community . I was doing good . And then I lose my job and this is the second time I'd lost a job . So I got experience with it , right , and my wife's 100% supportive . But I feel like a little pipsqueak , like I'm like , uh-oh , you did good , but you don't have a job anymore . Oh , and you just bought a house , like last September . Like , but no , you didn't buy a house , the banks allowing you to live in their house and you're giving them money , but you can't give them money anymore because you don't have a job . You have a baby now that you have to support and the walls start getting tied around me . And then I get this phone call from this person who's like what's your relationship to sin ? Or you know , elias , did you know that your employer isn't your provider and start speaking truth into my life that I was right to receive , right , god had . God for the last 10 years has been proving to me relentlessly that he loves me , he cares for me , he has sustained my every breath . And then somebody tells me that he loves me and , in the face of losing my job , richard gets on the phone and my Richard and Natalie get on the phone with me . I don't really know what you guys said , but it was along the lines of , like your employer is not your provider , and it was what I had to hear in that moment for me to know that the God who had been with me up until this point hadn't left me , hadn't lost me . But he also said some other crazy stuff , like identity in Christ that's like confirmed , and that like why am I ? Like I don't know , I forget , like some of this stuff , you dropped some bombs and we're like on the way drive into the park to meet family because we're going to go canoeing and I don't have a job , like I'm going to go out and have a good festive afternoon , just , you know , because everything was good , right Cause I want to keep the facade of everything's good . But I'm on the phone with Richard and he's like , yeah , man , like yeah , your job's not your provider , like God's actually your provider . He's like , yeah , you don't have to like resent your employer for firing you because , like he's never been in the position to provide for you . And I'm like , yeah , like duh , he's just obviously , you know .
Speaker 2Like yeah , but he's the , he's the . Your job is just the channel that God is using to provide for you , but he's the provider .
Speaker 5Yeah , he's the provider , and we had that conversation .
Speaker 2You remember that conversation , I think , natalie and that I think Natalie was like we need to talk to you guys and I was like what's going on ? And she's like you lost his job . I was like , oh , and I think we were in the backseat together . We were we , we FaceTime you guys . This is not important .
Speaker 5Maybe , it's just like a memory . You were , you were like right with your parents . I think yeah , and yeah , you guys were in the backseat . You're going to the airport or something , I forget like what the details were Maybe maybe we FaceTime , like you guys were just like firing and like , to be honest , like my sister had sent me texts like over the last like six months , like she sent like we have this group family texts , and Natalie was like talking crazy faith , like I was like like who , what ? Like Natalie , you're like quoting scripture and like declaring yourself free and I was just like oh yeah , cool , yeah Like . Yeah , Like you found like genuine faith , like this is pretty cool . And I remember , just I remember up until that point I was like I really hadn't like really reached out to Nat or had any like real one on one conversations with her . We just kind of I'd seen of these things a few times where she just encouraged our family , my brothers and sisters , like right , we just we share these things with each other , and she was sending these things and I was like whoa , like things that like in the past I'd be like , oh , you know , like yeah , like that's a good scripture to claim today , but like stuff that Nat was saying I'd be like what book are you reading ? Yeah , Like you know , like that's deep , Like that would just like that'd make me think . And then you guys talk to me , and then you invited me to this Bible study .
Speaker 2Wait , what do you remember ? What was some of the stuff that we said , that that you're like , that threw you off at all .
Speaker 5Um , I couldn't answer what my relationship to sin was , and that got my head spinning , right , because if I couldn't tell you what my relationship to sin was confidently , then I was like , wait a minute . Like I knew I was forgiven for every sin that I had confessed for , right At that point . That's right . So you give what I'm saying . You got the context , like what I knew I was free . I had no doubt I was . But , like , when you said freedom from sin , I was like , hmm , hmm , you had my attention Because up until this point I was , I was a slave to something other than righteousness , right , like , and hearing freedom spoke about in a personal and like I'm living it out , you can too . I was like tell me more Because I was the soil had been cultivated man , like , I don't really , I didn't really understand how cultivated it was , but I was fed up with the chains of looking out for myself constantly , like you said . You pointed out 100% , like I , I'd been burned enough that I knew where to stop people from coming in . I'd burn too many times . I felt like I'd been personally burned by God , right , so I knew the line , right and I . That's tough , that's a hard life . It's a hard life to constantly evaluate other people's motives in interacting with you to make sure they don't get too close so that they could potentially hurt you . That's exhausting , right . But I'd become pretty effective , pretty efficient of like , oh you're getting close , push you away , right . And so I think I was at that point , but , like I was willing to hear something different Because I was getting worn out . I was getting tired , yeah , so so we go .
Speaker 2We go to what ? Yeah a Bible study , had we just started the LRTs on on zoom ? Is that when that had happened ?
Speaker 5Yeah , so yeah , so like how'd that hit you ? I'm all , I'm all about Bible knowledge , right , Like I value my religious experience on being able to pick up this book that's got 66 authors over 2000 years of time that all somehow agree together . Like I , I know my Bible and I don't know my Bible gets exposed . Right , it wasn't like it was like . So this guy is talking about this and I'm taking like notes ferociously because I'm about , because I'm like I can argue , so , like my value in interacting and religious ideas is argument . Right , if my argument beats yours , you have to submit to mine . And my argument was that Jesus loves you . Right , and you have to submit to my argument that Jesus loves you . Like , up until that point . But like , I was hearing people talk about scripture as not like this secondary tool to use an argument , but as a personal declaration of who they were . And I'm over here like no , no , no , like that's what we will become one day . You guys just confused that one day we're going to be those things . That that's , that's what we have , that's the great hope , right , like that's what we're hoping for . Just a little , a little . And then like , but like , no , no , no , they're like they're declaring these things over their life . And I'm like I where does it say it ? And then , like , quote a verse that I'm kind of familiar with . And I go and I look and I'm like , oh , the like , the adverbs and the verbs around this declaration are like , have been , or we are , or like would you are , like he has perfected for all time . That has an ED at the end of it and it means that it's done . And I'm like I'm getting tripped up on adverbs and their fours and like these people are reading the Bible and they're talking about something that Christ is in them , that I didn't believe he was in me Freedom from sin , having received forgiveness , like , not just like one time forgiveness , but forgiveness for sin . They were talking about like , oh man , some crazy things Like , oh , like second Corinthians five , 16 , where , like they no longer had to position anybody in the flesh , which I felt like I had gotten extremely efficient in doing like I can position you in like your most cynical way , so that I can evaluate what kind of relationship we can get . I like I thought I was good at it , man Mercy . Like I thought that was a value because like that's how I was protecting myself . You like I just said it like , but it's like , oh yeah , no longer had to position anybody else on the flesh , like as I once positioned Christ , and like that one really hits me because I'm like dude , I had cynicism toward God because I thought he was selfishly looking out for himself and using me in my past . Right . I no longer have Christ through the flesh . I don't have to look at anybody else to the flesh , and these people are saying that this is their existence currently , and I'm like listen , did you read the next one ?
Speaker 2Yeah , but therefore , if anyone , he is a new Christ , he's a new , he's a new creator . Behold , the new has come .
Speaker 5Yeah yeah , that hadn't come for me yet . I hadn't realized it was there , like it's been there the whole time . Now I understand that like . But like I'm hearing all these things and we're going through this Bible study , we go through it one time and I'm like , looking at gab and I'm like this stuff's checking out , like the only thing that I got tripped up on was Roman seven being past tense Paul , not present tense Paul . That was the one thing that really tripped me up . I was like , but I knew , I knew that if I could find the solution to Roman seven , that the rest of this stuff lined up Right . But that was for me Like . That was like . So how did you find it ?
Speaker 2I got a figure Did you end up finding it ?
Speaker 5I started looking at it . Yeah , man , I look at it . It's yeah , I did , it was awesome . I can tell you about it . But yeah , why not tell me about it ?
Speaker 2Beautiful because Roman seven will be a chapter that one day , when I fully tell my story on the pod , roman seven plays a huge part of it . But I've interested to hear how you came to your conclusion about Paul being in the flesh in Roman seven for 25 , or him being in the spirit in Roman seven , 14 to 25 .
Speaker 5Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . What's going on with Paul and roast , chapter seven ? I hope I can do this justice . It's like 11 o'clock at night right now , or like almost midnight , but I hope I can do this justice . So , the interaction between sin and the law and me , those three things like what was going on with those three things . So , like I learned that the law couldn't bring life to me , right , I learned I learned through a lot of other scriptures that Christ had accomplished for me what the law could never do he could . The law could never bring life to me . So I learned that my relationship to the law was one that I was looking at , a law that was fulfilled , and not one that was to me an expectation anymore . It wasn't thou shout , not , it was . It wasn't expectations toward me , it was stuff that in Christ , I could expect the Holy Spirit to accomplish in me . Those things because he's , because I saw that the spirit of the law had been written onto my new heart , right , the spirit that wrote the law and had given these contexts lived in me . So I realized that my relationship to the law wasn't one of you're not good enough and you're not a mistake when it happened , but in Christ it's accomplished . He came to fulfill it , right . So that was number one . My relationship to the law was figured out . So when Paul was talking about like I was once alive apart from the law , but the law came and I died , I was like , oh y'all , yo , I get that , like you and me , like we're on the same page , because I one time I was like I was living wild , now Like I was doing me , and then law comes along and says , oh yeah , you can't sustain that lifestyle because it's built on sin , right . And the law comes and I there wasn't any life in it anymore , right . But then I also saw that now I thought , I thought in the past , like I just got to keep this law , but I can utilize grace to keep this law . That was what the lie , I was believing . But I realized that I , that Jesus kept it perfect , not a blemish . And what's true about him is true about me and Adam one , adam two . He gifts me obedience , like I'm an Adam two , and I have obedience , like not just okay , obedience , but I have obedience in Christ . And I was like , all right , that makes sense . What about ? What about sin , though ? Right . So there's a story that I tell that kind of under makes it understand this . And it's something that was told to me of a situation that somebody said they like I was interacting with this person and they were just being mean and nasty toward me . Right , they were just being mean and like , just intentionally , and I'm sitting over here like thinking like man , I could tell you off right now . I could really , and this is somebody that like , whose opinion I value , who's close to me , and like I could just tell you off right now . But , but I'm going to hold my tongue and I'm going to love you through it . But , man , what's really what ? I'm going to hide who I really am towards you so that you don't have to see who I really am . And I'm just going to love you through this and praise God because I can love you and hide my true feelings towards you under love . Hmm . Okay all the time considering myself to be all those nasty things that I wanted to say , right , so I saw that I identified more with the thing that I didn't want to be than the thing that 99% of the time was more than that was shown in my life . Right , 99% of the time I was identifying with the 1% , I was thinking that I was quenching something that was me in order to show something that I wasn't but I hoped to be .
Speaker 2Mercy .
Speaker 5And then in Roman 7 , Paul's like it wasn't me , it was sin in me . And sin took opportunity , because the law was there to work all kind of evil in me . And I'm like , yeah , Yo , unfair expectations were thrown on me that I couldn't add up to and I identified with this thing . But he's over here saying , no , it's actually something . There's a power that wants you to betray who you are . And I'm like , obviously , Roman 7 can't be the renewed life Paul , because he's dead to sin . And if he's dead to sin , then he's talking about a time when sin was able to leverage in his life something that wasn't him , that would demonstrate things that came out of him . But he's dead to it , Right ? And then in chapter 6 , and even chapter 6 , and then beginning of chapter 7 , he's been released from it . All right , Am I ? Am I ? Are you following ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I did not .
Speaker 5What are you thinking ? What are you thinking ?
Speaker 2I did not understand Roman 7 . When I first started walking in this I I had read Roman 6 . Like I think we all start with what's your relationship to sin ? So I read Roman 6 . And then this weekend in Nebraska one time I asked Jonathan . I was like , can you explain to me this Romans chapter 7 ? And he's like read verse 5 of 7 . And in verse 5 , paul's talking about well , in the flesh . He says da , da , da , da . And he's like okay , now go read Romans 8 , 9 . I was like okay , and I turned the page over in the Bible and it says you are not in the flesh , you are in the spirit . And he says like so he's talking about a guy in the flesh back then , but that's not you , you're in the spirit . And I was like , oh well , that makes sense . And it just clicked that this wasn't our lives in the spirit and we are in the spirit . So it wasn't Paul's life in the spirit because he was in the spirit . So you're looking at Gabby and you're just like this is adding up , the math is adding up on this . After the first week , did you know ? Like yo , this is making a lot of sense . What did it take after , because I feel like you went to every single one of them . Did it take after the second week to like ?
Speaker 3you're saying that's all right , you didn't miss the second week .
Speaker 5Your life starts to change . My life starts to change because I'm seeing an identity that I never thought possible before , but I had been exposed to an identity that would be mine one day . But then I'm starting to see his mind . And they do this thing in this thing called LRT , about this guy in Matthew 18 , whose life isn't changed by forgiveness . He experiences forgiveness , but when he experiences forgiveness , what he says contradicts . He thinks he can still repay his debt . That's what I'm trying to get . He thinks he can still . He's like give me enough time and I will repay this debt . And the guy's like you're forgiven and I'm did this little breakout thing and like something Jonathan had said was like you are free from living at the what would he say ? You're free from living at the expense of others . And I was like whoa . Free from what ? Like , yeah , yeah , living at the expense of others . And it hit me that I never had accepted forgiveness and had thought that I had to leverage everything in my life to make me feel good Every relationship . I came under conviction and it wasn't conviction with shame , and it was the first time I'd ever come under conviction and I wasn't covered with , like poor man , that I am right , because it was a conviction that I was like whoa , like I'm being called into freedom , not being called into work harder , so you'll do better , right ? I don't know , I don't know if you've ever you've ever heard that , but like it was the first time that like , hey , elias , this isn't the way I want you to live , this isn't the way I designed you to live . You're not on your own to accomplish this . I've accomplished this for you . Now just live in it . And like I'm talking , I forget which breakout room I was like maybe I was , I forget which one I was in , I don't know , I forget who I was with . But like he broke it down a little bit more and I was like , yeah , no , like , and I just got on there . I turned on my mic and I was like listen , I am free from living at the expense of others and , like , as I said it , I believed it Like , like . Like faith meets grace . That had always been there for me , but grace my faith hadn't grabbed onto it . Christ , in that moment , authored for me a faith that laid hold of the grace of his perfect life for me . That doesn't look at others as leveraging tools and I was free , like from like , I know I now no longer have to weigh every relationship as what can I gain If you have to , if you like , if you're listeners or whatever whoever's on this podcast , if you feel like any relationship in your life has a hint of what can I gain from this relationship that makes you feel like you have to meter how much you give to the relationship , right , like , if you feel like you have to only give a little bit to this person because really they can't really help you too much , but you can give a lot to this person because they've promised to help you . That's not the way . That's not life .
Speaker 2Mercy .
Speaker 5Right Life for me at that moment was shown to me that I can give all to anyone and ask for nothing in return , because Jesus gave everything for me when I said I'm not giving you anything , mercy . And then he kept on giving it Right . He didn't just do it once Like oh man , like oh , this was just the truth that came to me the other night . But like we received the will of God right , and I'm going to call it a little caveat here . But like we received the will of God and I always thought the will was like this majestic , like God's destiny for your life , no , it's like it's the will in Testament , the inheritance of God , right In Hebrews nine . That's where I found it . But like he says he gives us the will here , he wrote the will right . He wrote the will to give you a life of freedom , and the only way for this will to be released is that the one who wrote the will has to die , right . So Jesus writes the will that he wants to give you a life of freedom and then he dies to be able to release the will , our inheritance to us , and then he comes back to life and now he ministers our inheritance to us as being the author , the rectifier of this will . So it's no longer for me like the will , isn't like God's will . Isn't this mystified , mystical thing ? It's all the crazy things New Testament says about me . That is my inheritance and Jesus is ministering to me . My inheritance .
Speaker 2Mercy .
Speaker 5Crazy , right Crazy , absolutely , absolutely insane , but in that , like , everything that is said of Jesus is true about me and I can say that without feeling like a lightning bolt's going to hit me right . Well , john said so are we ? Hey , that's good point . Yo , john said like and like . I don't know like , and I get it . And you know I'm . I think as I grow in this , I'm able to understand a little bit better why that sounds so self righteous . Right , because right , if you're , if you're looking at me through the flesh and I say everything that Jesus , that's true about Jesus is true about me , and you don't feel like you're worthy of anything that Jesus is , then of course , anybody who comes along and says that they're worthy of what Jesus should receive sounds completely self righteous because you don't believe that you're worthy of it either . Right , but if you would , for two seconds , look at the cross and look at the heart of God on the cross , you would see your value and you would realize that you're not only worthy of it , but you're the perfect masterpiece to receive every heavenly blessing and to manifest his life to the world . Nobody else can do it like you , can Nobody , right , have to believe that he , that like that we're worthy of it , that we're like , we're valuable . I don't know , I don't really know how to say it .
Speaker 2We might have to understand what you think . But before the foundation of the world he had set us apart to be holy , and blame was before him , and in love he predestined us for adoption to himself through Jesus , according to the purpose of his will . We might have to see that our value was put in before Adam ate the fruit , and that is our destiny to be restored . And God's will is that that has happened , that that happens and it has happened . So we are living in God's perfect will for our lives , because we believe that Jesus is the Son of God , and because we believe that Jesus is the Son of God , everything that's true about him is true about us , and so we've been . On 2 Corinthians , chapter five , if we go all the way to verse 21 , just four verses down from being a new creation , he says that he who knew no sin became sin so that we might be the righteousness of God in Christ . And so , but we never . We never saw ourselves that way , because it hasn't really been preached that way . We have been set up to believe something else . Am I wrong ?
Speaker 5So now , like , so how do I accept that ? How did I personally ? So how did Elias groght ? How did he say ? How did he go from like it just being something that was said about me and that it was becoming something that was me ? There's this thing called secret place , and I told Rich that I was going to get a little like PG 13 a little bit today , because I can't , I can't tell my story without sharing how the intimacy between my wife and I has been completely set free , and I think it ties in really good with where we're at in this . There's this place , this thing called secret place , where Jesus in the New Testament promises , the God promises that he's going to be there to meet with you and it's where intimacy happens . Right , it's like the most holy place , right , it's like the sanctuary of God . It's like it's like when , when David was talking , like the secret place . He hides my soul in the secret place . You go there and he meets you , and it's not like some , like mystifiable , like he doesn't come to you in an apparition . Maybe he might . Don't , don't let me , don't let me write off God at all , right . But so secret place , right , my wife and I had a lot of baggage in our marriage that was all built up because of these expectations we had of each other and we were never able to celebrate our intimacy together , celebrate our intimacy together . It was never a celebration . It was always me trying to fulfill something that I was holding on to from , like , past sexual experiences , because I knew that there's somewhere and like all those drug induced moments of like that there was something like magical there , right , and I had this picture in my mind like there's intimacy and my wife and I we had never really experienced intimacy we had of a child . So I'm not saying like Right , like we . There was always baggage that came into the marital bed Always Am I good enough ? Am I ? Is he really , is she satisfied with me ? Have I done enough ? I fulfilled my side of the bargain . So , like it was always , it was a burden to each one of us . Mercy , we did the thing because it felt good and she knew that it like took an edge off of me and I was a better , I was like , I was more relaxed and I was a better husband . We did the thing because we knew it was what marriage should be , but in our own , both , in our own ways . We've been set free from expectation . Like I don't wake up meeting my wife's love anymore . Like I don't wake up oh it's awesome . Like I don't wake up and I'm like I need you to love me . No , like I wake up perfectly loved by my heavenly father , perfectly loved . My heart isn't broken or incomplete , needing somebody else to fulfill it . Right , and we both , separately , know this for ourselves and not just know it but intimately have knowledge of being loved by the father . So our marriage isn't one where , like I got to receive love , to become love . No , not anymore . I could love her if she kicked me in the face right now . Right , cause it doesn't come from me . Like I told you earlier , I don't work anymore , I don't love anymore , right ? Christ loves through me . Christ is literally in loving every person . Because I've gone to , I've gone to the secret place with no baggage . I know that , like when we're talking like sanctuary language , I can sit in the most holy place , in a chair that is mine and I'm worthy to sit in it , and I can have intimate relationship with God with no baggage . I can be completely stripped naked , spiritually , physically speaking , in front of God , and he's not ashamed of me . He's not disappointed , he's not saying you're not good enough , he's just speaking over me , my true identity , in the secret place . So my wife and I have both experienced that Right , we know who we are and we know that we don't have to be like each other's love tank filler . Right , that's not us anymore . So , when it comes to us celebrating our marriage , it's never been better because , because but it's not about like the like , the feeling anymore . Like we come together because our hearts are full of love for one another , like we've been brought together in marriage because Christ ordained the two of us to be each other's like target of love . Like I love her first , like Christ loves me and I love God , but , man , I love her first and she is like she gets the best of me and I get the best of her and I trust her heart of love toward me . So when we come together , man , that baggage that used to be there of expectations of like am I good enough ? It's not even a whisper anymore , it's not even a , it's not a crutch to what it used to be , and we celebrate our marriage together . And it's beautiful , man , it is just I don't know . You have to talk to her . You know , she'd even she'd say the same thing that I've said Different bro .
Speaker 2That's different . That sounds like what he created it for man . It sounds like exactly what he created it for , and it's been perverted by the enemy to be selfishness , when it was created for selflessness . Yeah man , yeah man , you were alive , you went from death to life and then then you got freedom , and now you're free , free . Your life's different , bro .
Speaker 5I'm as free as Jesus is free .
Speaker 2You're as free as Jesus is free . Yeah , let's go , man . I don't know how to say it . Do people look at you weird , bro ? Do people like what is ?
Speaker 5All the time Like people like you know I used to be like in my interactions with other people and talking about spiritual things , I was always like , oh , I gotta have a good argument because they could bring up something that like no , but not anymore . Like somebody comes to me , came to me the other day at work and I was like , hey , like I got this really troubling patient . You wanna spread some , you wanna like get into some oozy gossip . And I was like no , and so like they just kept on talking , even though I said no , and they're like you mean you don't have anything that you would like . Like if you could , you wouldn't . You don't have something you'd say to her . And I was like nope , like this lady is , this lady's got some baggage , but like I got nothing negative to say to her and that's true . Like I don't have to fake it anymore , I don't have to say what I should say . Like so for the longest time I thought that I was putting on a face right , I was putting on a facade , and I've realized that that's actually me , like the things that , like my best foot going forward wasn't a faker . Like that was actually me . In Christ , that was me and I was , but I was believing that the 1% was me Instead of the 99% that is me .
Speaker 2Man , why ? Ah man , so as we wrap this up , isn't it crazy ? No man , my heart is filled . You've ministered to me , man , as we wrap this up . If anyone's listening to this and they're just like I want what he's having , like I want , I want to be free , what do I gotta do ? What would you say to that person ?
Speaker 5When you try to earn a gift , it becomes a debt . Hmm . So I read this verse in Romans four , and it says that in probably more eloquent language than I'm saying it . But if we try to earn a gift , it becomes a debt , so stop earning . If this gift that God is , what Stop earning ?
Speaker 2Is that what you're saying ?
Speaker 5Well , stop working to receive a gift , like if you're working to receive a gift you're gonna feel indebted . It's amazing , but a gift can become a debt to you because you feel like you have to earn it . So somebody who's hearing this know that you don't have to work to earn the gift that God has given to you . And the reason you have all these contradictions in yeah buts is because you feel like you're indebted to God and you're not , because it's a gift . Nothing you earned , nothing you had to be good enough to receive . It's a gift . It's Christmas time . Open the present , put the robe of white righteousness on and wear it because it's tailored for you . Right , and the one who wrapped it up ? Who knew your perfect size and your perfect shape ? He tailored it just for you . It fits perfectly . Put it on . Don't leave it in the closet anymore . Don't say one day I'll wear that to the big ball . No , like , wear it every day because it's yours and it's been given to you . Just put it on . Put it on Christ's righteousness .
Speaker 2What's ? This is my last question . What is your ? What's the level of righteousness that you're at then ?
Speaker 5Is there ? Are there levels of righteousness ? I think Christ is righteous , I am in Christ and I am the righteousness of Christ . Yeah . I think the ladder we're climbing like we're there . Let's go . Yo . Can I share one more thing ? Do it , yo . So like . There's this song by Hillsong that's , that's a , and this is like . This is a shout out to anybody who's like a mountaineer or like try , likes to climb mountains , has ever experienced summit fever . So I give one little last illustration for what's changed in my life . But there's a song out by Hillsong that's called Highlands . Right , the song of a sin right . And it talks about and I could , like I hold , like I'm not saying braggingly , but just kind of give a context I hold some records for running right . I currently hold some , and if God was on a mountain that I had to climb to get to him , I would right there's no mountain I wouldn't climb . So there's this thing that happens for people who have that mindset that I'm going to get to the summit at any cost , and it's called summit fever , right . And when some fever hits you , it's , it's this like I will do whatever it takes to get to this , to the summit , and most of the time it's when there's decreased oxygen flowing to your brain . So this is really practical , like you're going up the mountain and like you're going through things you shouldn't be going through , but you're just like dead set . I'm getting to the summit , I'm getting there , and people make dumb decisions with it , like risk the life of their friends , the people where they're climbing this mountain with . They ignore turnaround times , they put themselves in exposed situations and they lose their life because they're so determined to get to the summit that they risk . Logic , right . I used to live a spiritual life of summit fever , right . I was so determined to get there , that I was willing to risk anything . I was willing to leverage anything in my life , any relationship , any item , that grace that extended toward me , any fruit of the spirit . I was willing to leverage it to get to the mountain top of the mountain . But I'm already on the summit . Baby , in Jesus Christ , I am on the summit , I am there . My feet have hit the highest point that the journey can take me in Christ , he is my summit , he , I'm there in Him . I have no need to live in summit fever any more than I do in Christ . I have no need to live in summit fever any more . I don't have to ignore the needs of others in order to accomplish my goal , because I'm already on the summit , I'm already at the top . I don't have to live at the advantage , the take advantage of anybody else any longer , because , man , go listen to that song , right , go listen to that song Like he is the summit , where our heart is , and like I'm free from summit fever . Man , like I've been there , I am there in Christ . It's awesome . Yeah .
Speaker 2That'll preach , bro , that will preach . No man Like my heart is smiling just to hear this testimony . And yeah , I'm sure we could talk for another three hours , but we gotta let the we gotta love this podcast . Thanks so much for coming on , bro . I love you , man , I love you .
Speaker 5Can I say a word of prayer ?
Speaker 2Pray it bro , Pray it out .
Speaker 5Yeah , man , heavenly Father , lord , we just thank you so much for Rich's podcast that you've blessed him with , lord . You've blessed it Like it's yours and I just thank you so much . You've allowed us to share our stories , your story , lord , the people who are listening I was prayer , special blessing on them . Lord , let them know who they are . You already listened , they're already hearing these things . Lord , silence the lies and put them to death . In Jesus' name , we just thank you . Amen . Love you man , love you bro .
Speaker 6It's too late , can't stop it , it's a boom . I know I cannot wait till you approve . I got people with me on the other side , Spirit on me too bright . I see they tryna ride . Coming out for the night yeah , it's that , come alive . Coming out for the fight ? Yeah , we stay alive , we stay alive . Hey , hey , put your hands down and we ain't coming questions , yeah , we been down . Creed , I am a don it's washed our hands now . Went from thinking road to living rich . Now , hey , bustin' , with the twos you watch me slide now she look kinda bougie and she bad now . Hey , mama think I made it easy brawl now , hey , hey .
Speaker 3Hey , hey , hey , hey , holla , when you ready , come and see me Working all day , working all night .
Speaker 6Do it for the kids , it for my city . I cannot fall out of the light . Spirit on me , won't you come down ? All the demons let them know Outside us we been around For any bogeys . They ain't go Lookin' at me . What do you see ? Shoot the shot . Kod only talk holy things . I'm a prince . That's where I came from , 23, . Check the rings F-O-G on my feet , on my soul . Jesus Christ set me free . Only motivation on me now is heaven . Lot of people tryna drain me utter stannity . I talk to God , told me people's not my enemies . I'm cutting ties with the spirits . Tryna play with me . Hey , finna , go shoot . Can't stop . Say we make it to the moon . It's too late , can't stop it . It's a boom . I know I cannot wait till you approve . I got people with me on the other side . Spirit on me , too bright . I see they tryna ride . Coming out for the night . Yeah , this that come alive . Coming out for the fight ? Yeah , we stay alive . We stay alive , hey . We stay alive . We stay alive .