Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#177 Finding Worth and Healing Through Faith: Beez and Caryn's Journey
Beez and Caryn courageously share their journey from the depths of a sexless marriage to discovering their true worth and identity through the love of Jesus Christ. Their heartfelt stories and experiences provide a beacon of hope and encouragement, shedding light on how understanding God's love can dismantle feelings of inadequacy. Join us as we revisit their transformative journey and explore the profound impact of embracing your identity as a cherished child of God.
Bernard opens up about a traumatic childhood experience of sexual abuse over the phone and its lasting effects on his physical intimacy with Caryn. Through the rawness of his prayers and the healing journey through EMDR therapy, we delve into the powerful intersection of faith, therapy, and personal growth. Bernard's story highlights the breakthroughs achieved and the inner conflict between faith and trauma, offering listeners a deeper understanding of the healing process and the role of divine intervention.
From unexpected pregnancies to dealing with miscarriage and personal losses, this episode is a testament to resilience and the transformative power of faith. Bernard and Karen's journey through adversity, supported by their church community and friends, showcases the importance of trusting God's provision and timing. We also invite you to join our Wednesday morning Bible study group, where we dive deep into the book of Romans, fostering a sense of community and shared learning. Tune in for an inspiring episode filled with hope, healing, and the enduring impact of the gospel.
0:00 - From Death to Life
9:36 - Healing Journey Through EMDR Therapy
18:43 - Transformation Through Healing and Faith
27:53 - Journey Through Healing and Restoration
34:34 - Navigating Spiritual Growth Through Adversity
47:06 - Trusting God Through Life's Challenges
52:44 - Embracing the Parenthood Journey With Faith
1:01:12 - Journey Through Pregnancy Loss
1:06:19 - Hope and Healing Through Trials
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life, yo, welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young and today's episode is another one with Bees and Karen. We had them at the beginning of season three. It was beautiful, we loved it and we're going back to hear what has happened since that episode. And it's beautiful stuff. There's hard stuff.
Speaker 1:This episode is not for the babies, so careful where you listen to it. But there's so much life, so much encouragement and I just love these. And Karen, I think you're going to appreciate this episode. So let's buckle up, strap in Love y'all, appreciate y'all y'all. Here is bees and karen. Okay, last time we left you guys, what was the date that your podcast came out, bees? Well, you're gonna ask me that one. Um, you know what time of year it was? I think it was february february of 2023.
Speaker 2:It was the kickoff, I think, of season three of the podcast.
Speaker 1:It was February of 2023?. Yeah, wow. So you guys have been rocking in freedom for not that long A year and a half.
Speaker 3:We're still new yeah, a year and a half, going on two years yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this is a follow-up episode with uh bees, doj or bernard as they call them in the streets of sydney and karen. Uh, if I, I think it would be important to hear your first episodes. So what number is your episode bees?
Speaker 3:I'm episode 98 and karen's is episode 97 and I would highly suggest and you, you actually say this in the beginning of my episode that you suggest that you listen to karen's first and then mine, because it kind of overlaps in some parts and kind of fills and fleshes it out. So yeah, I'm 97, I'm 98, 98 yeah, I think we.
Speaker 1:How long did we have those uh waiting to come out after we recorded them?
Speaker 2:we recorded them in december.
Speaker 1:It took like three months yeah, so during that time and I ask you because, during that time and waiting for it to come out, and then subsequently after they come out, what was that experience? As people are hearing like I mean, there's been vulnerable stories on the death of life podcast and I don't know if this is more vulnerable, but it's at least as vulnerable as any story we've had on the death of life podcast. What was that like? And, uh, was there any lies that the enemy was coming at you before and then after it came out?
Speaker 2:no, for me. I it felt liberating, because our story had been a secret for such a long time, to actually put it out there, um and in. In between recording and when we and was actually released, I took that opportunity to tell people, people like I. My parents knew nothing about what was going on and I sat them down and I told them everything and we were all crying, but my parents were so happy for what I had found in Jesus and telling all of my friends I was hyped to be able to tell people.
Speaker 1:In a nutshell, Karen 30 seconds. What was the thing? So, if someone's just listening to this for the first time, what was the main thing for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so go back and listen to my episode for sure. This is just a quick highlight. Bernard and I lived in, I guess, a sexless marriage for about 10 years. It really played on my value, my worth and if I was lovable and I was believing a lot of lies about being none of those things and that I wasn't enough in so many ways in my marriage as a Christian I thought God was mad at me. I thought he was disappointed in me. I thought he was using the pain of my marriage to make me a better person. And then I found I found his love for me. I just really began to understood how much he loved me and it just it broke all of that down.
Speaker 1:Wow Bees, what would you say 30 seconds? Yours is the next episode 98. Yours was talk to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for me it was very similar themes Unworthiness, inadequacy, having that feeling of being unlovable. But this is from very. The journey for me began in my childhood and during that time it was rough and I guess I painted myself a certain way and saw myself a certain way and what I discovered, like you know, in celebrating the full freedom of the gospel, is who I am in Christ, how God sees me, how much he loves me, how cherished I am and the life that he wants to give me, or the life that he has given me. All of that was revealed and I was able to celebrate that. Like you know, my one is called Bees Receives His Crown. That's the title of my episode from a bees receives his crown, that's that's the title of my episode. And it's because, uh, I celebrate now that I'm unapologetically Royal because the King of Kings and Lord of Lords calls me his son, he calls me his child.
Speaker 3:And in that, I guess, from then till now, I was going through that buffering stage of how am I receiving my crown? Like, what do I need to do? Do I need to do more? Do I need to? And I was going through that adjustment, um, and that's, I guess, in that three month stage it was me kind of really testing the waters of what freedom meant. Freedom in Jesus Christ meant Um, and then growing in that and like being nurtured in the in that and being nurtured in that experience. So from worthless to unlovable now to being cherished, to celebrating who I am in Christ and living a life in agreement to that, that was the key thing, that kind of shifted.
Speaker 1:Not everybody is going to have an episode on the Death of Life podcast. There's only been what? 173 of them so far. Episode on the death of life podcast. Uh, there's only been what? 173 of them so far. But there is something about confessing that is healing and therapeutic. And when you guys I think after you recorded the episode, I think there was something different about how you guys were moving, even on bible studies we saw you like there's something about confession that it's healing, it's beautiful. And then the episode came out and there's a chance for people to hear it. Uh, what happened in the subsequent weeks and months after this episode has gone out? Your, uh, your stuff is out there. People know more about you than your parents had known before the episode had come out. Talk to me about that time and what you guys were growing in and what.
Speaker 2:What actually took place well, I, I, I recently went back to listen to my episode because I was wondering where we had left it off and in the story, because obviously you know we finished the the recording but the story continues right, um, and I can't remember where you, you ended, yours, babe, but um, where where we like kind of ended off, was that? Um, for me, I had found my complete, full love that I had been searching for, that I had been looking for, that I wanted from Bernard, like I needed that from Bernard, and I had finally found that in Jesus, that I didn't need Bernard anymore. Bernard's love was now just like a cherry on top of this already complete, beautiful cake. Just like a cherry on top of this already complete, beautiful cake. And that released Bernard from so many expectations that I had of him for the full 10 years of our marriage. And part of that was I also saw myself as a victim because I, in our marriage, I was the one who wanted to be intimate. Bernard was not interested. In our marriage, I was the one who wanted to be intimate, bernard was not interested, and I had all these expectations of him to fulfill these needs that I thought I had. And so, towards the end of 2022,.
Speaker 2:We're sitting in one of our therapy sessions and Bernard just felt prompted by the Holy Spirit to share something that had happened to him when he was 10 years old An incident where a random person called his house and, for the next 30 minutes or so, engaged in sexually abusive behavior with Bernard over the phone. Um and you know, we sat there in that session Um, I obviously was crying, and Bernard, because he struggled with so much unworthiness he felt like, because what had happened to him wasn't physical someone didn't actually physically touch him that what had happened to him wasn't worth being called child abuse, and me and the therapist had to sit there and kind of convince him no, what had happened to you is actually abuse. And the therapist said you know, bernard, this is actually a really big piece of the puzzle of what is going on for you and why you have this reaction to physical intimacy with Karen, and that felt like a light bulb moment. I was grateful, though, that I, because of what Jesus had done for me, I felt like, even if we never resolved the intimacy issue in our marriage, I knew I could be committed and be loving and stay in this marriage for the rest of my life because I had the love of Jesus. I didn't need God to fix my problem for me to be everything he had already called me to be, and so finding that out was like a relief, I suppose, because you have some answers for what's going on. But it was like the healing had already happened for me.
Speaker 2:That was what Bernard revealed, wasn't the reason for the healing? The reason for the healing for me was Jesus, and so this happens. And then our therapist said look, bernard, I think what would be helpful is if we have some one on one sessions doing this particular type of therapy, which is called EMDR. It's a type of therapy that helps people disassociate from traumatic events that have happened in their life. Um and um. So in the following year, like january, february, bernard started doing this, this type of therapy, with our therapist.
Speaker 3:Um and bernard, you should pick up here what happened in that, because that was a miracle too yeah, um, it's actually quite interesting because during that, during that time, I didn't know what EMDR was, and when she was explaining it to me, I was open for anything. I think the biggest challenge during that time was and I'll kind of emphasize on the idea that there was this feeling of not being good enough, this feeling of inadequacy and this feeling of unworthiness right, feeling of inadequacy and this feeling of unworthiness, right, um, and karen, sharing her challenges and her frustrations and, and you know me, not being able to meet up, meet her expectations, was once again validating um, me not being enough. And so I would approach, you know, um, therapy of this thing of I know I'm broken, I know I I'm damaged goods. Even after confessing and discovering that what had happened to me as a child wasn't my fault but impacted me in such a really detrimental way, I still felt like damaged goods. But during that time, when we're celebrating the gospel, we're going to Bible studies, you know, we're going to internet church that was that became a real conflict. There was a real dissonance where it's like, well, if Jesus is telling me one thing about who I am and I'm feeling another thing, help me make, help me make it make sense Right.
Speaker 3:And so when we went to, when I started doing these in EMDR sessions, um, you know, the therapist said to me this is going to take about eight to 10 sessions, one hour sessions. And I said, okay, no worries. And I was always game, I was always ready because in that state, during that stage, me knowing that there was hope, me knowing that there was a solution, me knowing that there was an opportunity for me to be healed and to be restored, Like I took any opportunity and so, but it was funny that we started the first session and the very first session. You know, we, she does the hand, the movement, the hand movements and stuff like that, and I'm not knowing what's going on the movement, the hand movements and stuff like that, and I'm not knowing what's going on. But in the back of my head, all I wanted to know, all I believed, was that I was going to be healed. All I believed was this it was going to work.
Speaker 3:And, um, after, like, this is this is what happened afterwards, and this is why I really appreciate a therapist, because, though she's she wasn't she's she's not a um a person of faith. She respected me for having mine. And so afterwards, after the first session, she goes how do you feel? And I said, look, I feel a bit weird because I know I've been like all I did was watch you and hear your voice and you're talking to me, but I feel that there's a lump in my throat and I feel like really anxious and she goes. That's part of it. Your mind has been gone, has gone through a lot. Help it process, Um. And she goes if you need to pray, pray. And then I felt my chest being really tight and I started she goes to help you soothe, just spread it out, Like just put your hands on your chest and then just spread it out. And I was like, okay, no worries, and she goes and after this session, just take some time. If you need to pray, pray.
Speaker 3:And it was funny that after that session I got really real with God and I think that was the first conversation that I had in where I questioned him and I said if I am truly cherished by you, what happened? Why did I go through that? And when I started praying, I started doing this, I started putting my hands on my chest and I started praying and in my mind I just saw visually just this thick black tar like oozing on my chest and I was praying. And the more that I was praying, I was saying to him why did this happen to me? Like if you really loved me, if I was really cherished, why do I feel like this? Why do I feel like damaged goods? Why do I feel that I can't be enough for my wife, I can't be enough for people, Right? And if it's saying that I'm cherished and I'm valid, why do I feel like this?
Speaker 3:And I started, like I started peeling, like I felt like I was ripping my skin off because like it wasn't supposed to be intense, but I guess in the intensity of my prayer, like I was bawling my eyes out at this time, Right, and I was really just digging into my chest and I just I was like what happened? And then I hear God and he says to me I'm so sorry this happened to you. I never wanted this to happen to you. This never should have happened to you. But you got to understand that I never left you, that you were never alone, that I carried you through it and I'm still carrying you through it. But you got to know this that you are fully healed, that that didn't tarnish you, that didn't wreck you, that didn't. You are fully healed. And the moment that I heard that, it's like I peeled away and it's like this glow of warmth just split through, Like, visually speaking, I felt like the clouds part or the darkness part in my chest and this warmth just flooded me of light and it seemed like the tar, the darkness just evaporated from me completely. And I just heard him say you need to understand that. You are fully restored. You don't need to do this right. I'm telling you you are fully healed, you are with me. I'm never going to like I've never left you, I'm never going to abandon you, You're fully with me. I'm never going to like I've never left you, I'm never going to abandon you, You're fully with me.
Speaker 3:Um, and it's funny that, after a number of Bible studies and after, like you know, go into the word um, what I, what I remember, is that I had a um, I had a conversation. It was during the same same time I'm doing Bible studies and stuff and I had a conversation. It was during the same time I'm doing Bible studies and stuff, and I had a conversation with you, Rich, and it was before I recorded the Bible study. This was the time that you caught up, Karen. She recorded the Bible study. You wanted to record mine, but you knew that there was something missing. So you were like oh, tell Beez that I want to talk to him. You mean the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I'm so sorry, I don't know what I said.
Speaker 1:No, you're good, I'm just trying to figure out if this is before or after. Keep going.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So I was like oh man, here I am going to get in trouble off Rich for something. I don't know what's going on. And so you said to me, you know, you said to me I don't know what to do about it. And we've went back to the scriptures and the story of the man who had a child who was demon possessed goes to Jesus, I believe. But help me in my unbelief and for me that's what I believe happened. After that EMDR session, god revealed to me and said to me the reason why you were like this is not because of me, it's because you thought like you had full control, you thought you were fully responsible. You thought you were fully responsible. You thought you were fully accountable for this. So your healing process, your restoration, was all your responsibility. But B's, it's not, it's mine. And when you gave it to me, and when you believe that you, you gave it to me and it was fully mine.
Speaker 3:Healing took place and and so there was two things right. There were two stories that I can compare it to. One was the woman who was subject to bleeding for 12 years. Right, and in my heart I believe that I used EMDR as her way of saying, if I touch his robe I will be healed. She didn't need to touch his robe, right? There was no power in the robe, it was the power in Jesus. But she was like I feel like I've got to do something. I've got to do something, I've got to do my part and I believe, well, if I do EMDR, I will be healed. But Jesus was like no, no, no, the healing's found in me. Emdr was the catalyst to show you that it was actually in me.
Speaker 3:And I'm not discrediting EMDR, I'm not discrediting counseling or therapy at all, but I'm saying EMDR was my catalyst to understand that the restoration and the healing was found in Jesus Christ. So now God has revealed to me and said you know what? You're no longer that woman either, you're the centurion right. So when you say Lord, only say the word and I will be healed, that's me. I know that I'm healed because my heavenly father says that I've been healed. I'm living in agreement to what he says about me. I'm fully healed, I'm fully restored. And that was, I think, the complete shift of me being unapologetically royal, because I was no longer the mistakes. I was no longer the mistakes that happened to me, let alone the ones that I made, and when I knew that, when it says you know, all things are created, new 2 Corinthians 5.17. Oh man, I don't even have it in my head.
Speaker 1:I'm drawing a blank 2 Corinthians 5.17 says if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation. New creation.
Speaker 3:Behold, the new is come. And I was able to claim that the old literally passed away when I was pulling my chest. You know that black tar, that ooze. I think that was the final nail on the coffin of my old self. And when I was like the new has come, the new was here and I'm living in agreement with that, I'm celebrating that. So, yeah, that's where it kind of picked up for me.
Speaker 3:And then I guess my ministry, or the way that I shared that, was completely different, because I'm not preaching to anyone about grind anymore. I'm not like preaching to anyone about this is what you got to do, you know, or this is the part that you got to play now, Cause there was so many people and and it became so much more appealing then, so it became so much more attractive because people were coming to me and saying, well, what do I got to do? And it's like what you got to do is believe that Jesus did what he did and you just celebrate what Jesus has done in for and through you, and I just saw lives being changed just by that simple message. It happened small, but boy did it spread like wildfire in the first couple of months that me and Karen were celebrating this thing. Do you want to add on to that? Sorry, I'm not hijacking this interview.
Speaker 1:What did you think, Karen, as you saw this transformation taking place? And then you saw B's preaching with boldness the truth that we are free from sin?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was really exciting. But, just like to your previous question when you were talking about confession, I think things can't get healed in the darkness, when we try and hide and keep things under wraps. That's healing can't happen there. And so I think part of confession, um, is that we bring things to the surface. What had happened to Bernard? He had kept a secret for close to 40 years and it couldn't be dealt with. God couldn't do anything with that if he was like holding onto it and hiding it away. I definitely believe things need to be brought out into the open, to be brought to the light, so that we can, I guess, acknowledge it, confess it, bring it to God. He can do something with that. And so, seeing Bernard's situation, I mean even the therapist said to him, you know, because she said, oh, we need eight to ten sessions. One session is all it took for I guess.
Speaker 2:God's belief to catch up with what God had already done in him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sorry, I just want to add on to that. In that session afterwards, like me and Karen used to make jokes with the therapist because I would always want to make sure that I was doing the right thing. So I would always ask for feedback and say, hey, how did I go? And she was like B. This is not a grading thing, this is about an experience. So how do you think you went? And I'm like I don't need that, just tell me I'm doing good and I'll be all right. And so she was like no, no, no, you tell me how you think you went.
Speaker 3:When it came to the EMDR, I knew there was like eight sessions and I guess like in a really brief way, basically she wanted to take me from X to like A to B, right, and that was where the eight to 10 sessions were and the at the end it wasn't from a place of sexual aversion and hesitation to sexual arousal, you know, and oh yep, I want to have sex with my wife, and you know this is. It was more of a place where the effect or the residue or the impact of that previous experience which causes the aversion is no longer there. And it's like starting me from a blank slate. But in that one session I went from aversion to curiosity. One session I went from aversion to curiosity and so, to give an example, she was like I want you to imagine a circumstance that makes you feel uncomfortable. And I'm like, okay, I'm driving in the car and Karen puts her hand on my thigh. That was the thing. And I was like she goes, how do you feel in that? And she's like it's like I panic, I stress, I clam up, I get worried. In my head. I'm like, oh, she's going to want sex and I can't deliver that to you, I'm not good enough. And all of this thing starts flooding. And she goes on a scale of one to 10. How do you feel about that? And I'm like, oh, how amplified is that? I'm like nine, 10. It's like, okay, cool, and that's where it starts session. I moved past that and I was into a place of curiosity. I was like, if Karen's putting a hand on my leg, it's not that I'm avoiding it or reluctant, it's like I wonder what's going to happen now. And I asked her after that session how did I go? And once again she gave me the answer you tell me how you went. Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 3:The very next session, um, where we were supposed to do EMDR, I was like hey, um, uh, I don't want to disrespect you or anything, but I think I'm good, I think I'm healed, I think that I'm, I'm okay, um, and then she, she looked at me and she goes look bees.
Speaker 3:I didn't want to tell you you, but I've never seen someone go through the change that you went through in one session Never. And so she said I just wanted to check up on you because I don't think we need to do this anymore. I think we need to have another session with Karen just to say things are good. But she had never seen such transformation in one session. And I'm like, because I know why. And I said to her, I said I think I've been healed by God and I thanked her for allowing that experience to help cater for that. And so, yeah, I just wanted to sorry to kind of cut you off, babe, but that was something miraculous in that it wasn't just me being compliant or accommodating to this experience, it was like, no, no, god is going to use it to show me how good he is, how faithful he is and how miraculous His power is so go over that one more time, in that you're doing this thing.
Speaker 1:When was this moment where you're like, before you went back for the second session, that you're like, yeah, I'm healed, and how did you know?
Speaker 3:Because I think I became more curious about like it's like, well, if I'm curious, then that means I want to have sex with Karen. There's nothing stopping me from having sex with my wife. I do find her like, I do want to engage with her in that way. You know, I want to be intimate with her and all the things that I think were blocking me, or the walls, or the lies that I was believing before they went. And I'm talking about a whole holistic approach of restoration. Right, because when God says to me, I'm enough, I'm enough in all areas of my life, I'm enough in my employment, I all areas of my life. I'm enough in my employment, I'm enough in my finances, I'm enough in my relationships, because he's the one providing for me, he's the one that's telling me who I am, he's the one that's saying I've got you and when I've fully trusted in that, that impacts all areas, the holistic approach of life.
Speaker 3:So if my intimacy, if I was believing the lies there but I no longer, and, like you know, I'm believing, yeah, bees, you are enough. You're a good looking chap, you're sexually appealing to your wife, is there? There is reason why she would want to sleep with you? Then I'll be like, well, yeah, and I started leaning more into that and sure it was a growing experience, but, um, because there was so much, I would say there's a. There was a growing experience, but, um, because there was so much, I would say there's a. There was a lot of, a lot of hesitation in am I really like that, like I was gaslighting myself rich. I was like, nah, surely, surely the it could have been that miraculous, surely there's got to be something. There's a catch. There was no catch. Right, we were going for a walk. We'll, um, we'll walk in our dog one night and, um, I was like, hey, I was so nervous, man, I was so like, uh, nervous, because I actually wanted to sleep with my wife. I actually wanted to have sex with my yeah.
Speaker 3:it was like I was dating all over again man, like we were married 11 years. And here I am hesitating and we ended up having a chat and talking about it. Karen, you can share the experience if you want, but for me that was miraculous, completely miraculous. That God was able to take me from where I thought I was to where I am now, where I was like, yeah, I want to celebrate this. Yeah, hopefully that answered the question, man.
Speaker 1:No, that was good. That was good. I kind of want to keep going, unless you want to talk more about this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I was just going to say so this is all happening like around February, march, april of last year. At the same time Bernard was in prison chaplaincy and we accepted a position for him to be a pastor a youth pastor at a group of churches just outside of Sydney. So we moved down there and, of course, all of this is happening. So Bernard at the time was doing a lot of ministry on social media, sharing reels and you know all kinds of stuff, and we're hyped, we're excited. This is the best thing that's ever happened to us, finding out the gospel in this way. And Bernard is, you know, doing his thing, sharing his message. And Bernard is, you know, doing his thing, sharing his message. And so we moved, like the 11th of February, we moved to our new home and to this new town and about a month after that, bernard had shared something online.
Speaker 2:I think it concerned some people what he was saying and Bernard was brought into a meeting. They wanted to have a chat with him about what he was sharing. There were some concerns about what he was saying and people wanted to talk about it. They had some chats about it and people wanted to talk about it. They had some chats about it and I guess ultimately the decision was made that you know, to satisfy some of people's concerns and questions, that Bernard was to, I guess, write a response and explain where he now is, because people had seen a shift in his ministry, people had seen a shift in what he was sharing. Bernard also had taken to shout out to Justin Koo his digital missionary course.
Speaker 2:It's a good course, it's a very good course and that teaches you certain techniques of how to engage people online. And you know, sometimes you say something a little bit controversial to grab people's attention, to get them to listen more. Oh the hook, yeah a hook, a hook in the. Is that what they say in the?
Speaker 3:in the business? In the business or on the streets. Either way, I can never figure it out with Richard.
Speaker 1:I do flip flop between those when I'm making jokes.
Speaker 2:And so Bernard did that. And you know, I think, for some people they had questions and they had concerns. So Bernard was asked to take some time to write his responses to some of the concerns people had shared and then, when he had done that, he was asked to take some time off from his paid work. While this was being sorted out. He wrote his responses all the people, the powers that be, read what he had to say.
Speaker 1:Karen, how are you feeling during all of this? You feeling when, during all of this, like during the, the writing of the paper, that, like this, took place over several months or a couple months or something like that um, how are you feeling during all this time? And, uh, was stuff coming for you or how did you handle it?
Speaker 2:it. It really was an up and down experience in some ways. I'll just say this at the top of this whole thing God's timing is perfect and I believe that the moment that Bernard and I received and believed the gospel and our freedom in Jesus came at the time that it did to prepare us for what was going to happen. Well, partly to prepare us for what was going to happen well, partly to prepare us for what was going to happen over 2023. And I think if I wasn't in freedom, rich, I would have been out there, I would have been angry, I would have been, I would have been. It would have been a mess.
Speaker 2:And I had experiences with the Holy Spirit, like audibly hearing the Holy Spirit counseling me and giving me the peace and patience, despite the difficulty I thought we were facing.
Speaker 2:I was mad.
Speaker 2:At times, I felt I put myself and us in the victim role.
Speaker 2:At times, um, you know, it felt unjust and whatever, but all through it, despite feeling that, at certain times, I knew that, no matter what happened, god was with us and he had our future in his hands and so I didn't actually need to worry and any of that anger or whatever I felt because of what was happening, god, just like he, calmed a storm and I got to a place of just peace and being like, okay, lord, whatever happens, we're here and to the point where, because Benon had to, I guess, deep dive and really drill down and study I got to be a recipient of that because we would have discussions and he would share with me what he was discovering.
Speaker 2:It really solidified for in concrete, our experience that we had had in the gospel, our experience that we had had in the gospel. I now could explain it and I could reference it and I could, you know, really make sense of it, so that if I needed to not that we need to defend God, but that I could defend what we had learned. And so it became a blessing in a way.
Speaker 2:Um, because now we were so um, like anchored in this, because our experience plus what we were learning and studying, um, yeah, that that became a blessing. It wasn't always easy. I mean, this took a long time to resolve and at the same time we felt a little bit isolated and cut off from community, physical community. But God was so good, God was so good to us through that whole year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just want to kind of add on to that. I would say, definitely this idea, like Satan, like what the enemy made for evil, god is working for my good. When I started, you know, when I had that opportunity to kind of really research and really grapple and understand, so I can, you know, provide that, I guess, an explanation that was such a blessing because I was learning more, because I, you know, once you live like, if you're in freedom and you celebrate that and you embrace that, there's still, I would say, a maturing, a, you know, growing in that. And when I was growing, I was so grateful for that opportunity because I was like, oh yeah, this actually does make sense. And I just want to say a massive shout out to you, rich, you and your family, jonathan, justin Wes, because during that time and Harold Eddie, and Jayla.
Speaker 3:Eddie and Jayla Ruth. There were so many people who came around us and said, hey, you know what, we've experienced similar challenges, but this is what we're going to pray for you. We know God's got you. Because I would say one of the biggest challenges that I faced was I got up, all up in my fields the victim mentality, the feeling of potential betrayal or being misunderstood and I was really. I was really feeling a lot of things. After a first, an initial meeting, I went back home and in my head I knew I was good, I was like I'm okay, but I feel so bad for my wife because she, like I've had to move her to like away from her community, away from her family. But what I knew like I've had to move her to like away from her community, away from her family, but what I knew, like what gave me peace and assurance that she was also in freedom is that when I told her what happened and what the potential ramifications or the consequences of what could happen, she just looked at me and said B we're good, we're actually really good. God's got us. You've got nothing to worry about. We're good And're actually really good. God's got us. You got nothing to worry about. We're good and just to hear that constantly throughout the experience that saved my ministry man that saved us, constantly being loved upon, constantly being affirmed but also rebuked.
Speaker 3:I remember having a conversation with you, rich, and you and Jonathan, and I kind of broke down because I was frustrated, and I was frustrated in potential missed opportunities, missed opportunities of ministry, missed opportunities of, you know, having this message sent and stuff, and you lovingly told me to get over myself. You were like yo, this is. You know you're trying to control this. You can't control the gospel and how it moves, so why are you trying to? And God's can't control the gospel and how it moves, so why are you trying to? And God's got a plan, he'll work it out.
Speaker 3:And it was that kind of assurance as well that I needed that there were so many ways that I was believing lies at the time where Satan was having a field day with me trying to break me using my feels but you know we say it all the time and you know feelings aren't Lord Jesus is, and I was reminded of that during that time. So even, like even in that I'm saying potential, because I would say old bees would take a lot of things to heart, he would get upset and it would. And I don't have a poker face when it comes to being upset. I wear that heart on my sleeve, on my face, wherever you want to look, you'll see my feelings. But despite all of that, no one would know that, like I was all goods man, I was loving on everyone because I had peace. I had the peace that surpassed all understanding, you know, and that for me also was a drawing card for people like, like for the close people that kind of knew what the situation was. They were like how do you like, how are you good like this? And I'm like, because god is good, god is faithful, and he was sorted all out for, for, for karen and I, and he did um and so yeah.
Speaker 3:So, going back to those papers, those papers were a blessing to me because it solidified me in what I truly believe, because in my experience and this works for different people right, it's like I have the experience and then I have to make sense of the experience, right, me, making sense of the full freedom. And I call it full freedom, justin, you'll call it the good good because it's good good. Right, for me it was full because I lived so much of my life in an incomplete gospel right or an incomplete understanding For me, the full freedom gospel I was able to embrace and then deep dive into that. So it gave me so much more of a conviction and reason to celebrate it, because I'm like this stuff really checks out biblically and it lines up oh it's in there, that's it, because all this gospel stuff was it like?
Speaker 1:it was like what is freedom theory stuff, and then after the podcast, like you really dove deep into the actual theology.
Speaker 3:Yeah because I was looking through yeah, because I was for me personally, it could be different for Karen, but I was looking to the idea of freedom through the lens of unworthiness. So I'm like, oh, it must be nice to have that, it must be nice to have the opportunity to embrace that. But then I actually understood it, embraced it, celebrated it. And it's funny because funny because Karen hit the nail on the head when she was like God prepared me for that season, because that was probably one of the biggest gaslighting seasons of my life. Or it's like is this really true B's, is this really your experience? And I had to sit back and say, like when Satan said, yeah, it wasn't, this is all a lie, this is this, this that I was like, nah, and God just reminded me you're good man.
Speaker 1:So the gospel as taught by Paul, you know we would say at Love, reality, that's what we're teaching. You know the gospel that Paul received from Jesus and what is talked about in Acts. It came under scrutiny from you, right, Like it came under heavy scrutiny from you and you were worried like what's going to come out on the other side. And that heavy scrutiny that you applied to the gospel, it came out. The gospel came out a champion is what you're trying to say, 100%.
Speaker 3:Yeah, on top.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:More than a conqueror is what you're trying to say.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. Yeah, on top, yeah, more than a conqueror. And I think when your whole life you are taught certain things and you believe certain things to be true, even when you see the actual truth of God, the gospel, who you are in him, it's not like all those old things you once knew just disappear and you don't. You know they go away, you don't think about them. There were definitely moments of doubt that would come up and be like maybe we're wrong, like maybe we're believing stuff that's not real, maybe we are being deceived and we're being taken down a path that's not going to lead us to where we need to be. So I think, on the balance of it, I look back now I'm like, no, this was a really good experience for us to be solidified in this truth. So now I cannot be shaken by it. There are still temptations, still temptations. Things still come up of.
Speaker 2:You know, people will say things, people that I look to as authority or that I look to as people who are smart and really know their things. They can say things. But if it doesn't line up with the gospel, I now feel confident to be like I can take what they're saying, I can see the bits that I believe to be true, and I can, you know, I can put the rest aside, whereas before it would. It would literally strike fear in my heart. If someone disagreed with something that I was believing I would. I would start to panic and worry. Oh my goodness, maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is really bad, maybe I'm going to be lost, maybe, you know, I'm just spiraling that so um, yeah.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 4:I think, I. I think I definitely had that feeling before.
Speaker 1:I've definitely had that feeling early on, where I was like is this not true? Is Romans 6, 7, does it mean something else? Or does Romans 6, 11, what's he saying? And because the gospel can stand up and will never faint, and because we're taking it from the scripture, I am not afraid of anybody saying anything. And if we want to talk gospel, I mean let's talk gospel, let's go to the verses, let's check it out. I feel like confidence. You, you put it through scrutiny and you put it through the fire. If it comes out on the other end, um you can, you can feel good about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that that was a beautiful thing as well, that god led us through that season, that, in spite of the circumstances being changed, like um and like my, my position's been um, like I'm, I'm in a new position. I've been moved. What I praise the Lord about is, even though, like you know, there were differences in understanding and ideas, I've got nothing but love for every single person in that space and it's reciprocated. You know, there was no animosity, there was no, you know, slander and stuff for the individuals that I was able to have that journey with, and I really feel that that is led by the Holy Spirit, that I didn't me personally, I'm going to say me personally I didn't walk out with a heart of bitterness or jadedness or, you know, victimization or any of that, because God was able to be victorious in that circumstance and I praise the Lord for it.
Speaker 3:You know, and I think that that once again was evidence for me in my personal experience, that showed that he was good, that he was faithful, that he, like he, was in control, because if I took the reins, if I took the wheel, I'm burning bridges, man, not just buildings. But that's not me, that's old me, that's old me. I would have been like that, I would have been so offended. But I've heard, going back to those conversations, that we had Rich during that season. It's like why are you being offended? Why are you hurt? Why do you feel that you're lacking?
Speaker 1:Like you don't need to be like this. I don't think I would have said why are you hurt, why are you offended? Is something I would say, oh, yeah, yeah. Why are you hurt? Because it hurts man Like. I lost my job that mug hurt. Like we're not pretending it didn't hurt Some of this stuff is sad man. Some of the stuff is hard, but to live with offense and to live here, those are things like no, those are no-goes, right we?
Speaker 2:can't go that far. And and if, if this had happened pre-freedom, like a lot of ways, I like to compare bernard to peter the disciple, because I think p Peter was a bit of a clicker. He was a real passionate guy. You know he would have, do you?
Speaker 3:know what a clicker is.
Speaker 1:Rich, yeah, it's a zippy zappy. What were you guys saying the other night? Dibby dabbing, it's a dibby dabber who likes to go. What's going on?
Speaker 3:and uh see my bad tim tam slam it's, uh, it's a rue I like how you just compiled all of your australian in one statement, made absolute, no sense. No, but yeah, so it's dibbadob, which is like a snitch, but karen was using the word. What was it? What were you saying? I said clicker, like someone who it might. Yeah, so it's dibidob, which is like a snitch, but Karen was using the word. What was it? What were you saying?
Speaker 2:I said clicker like someone who just flies off the handle.
Speaker 1:He goes from zero to 100 without oh, we actually use that here in America.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, we don't. I'm messing with you. Okay, yeah, I was hoping you were going to, really okay. So a clicker, uh, someone who flies off the handle, okay yeah, so benard used to be like that.
Speaker 2:I used to be really afraid sometimes when benard would talk to people who were, like you know, his bosses.
Speaker 2:Because I'm like you need to pull your head in, calm down, like you can't talk to people like that, I used used to be very scared.
Speaker 2:And so when this whole thing happened, because I knew what God had done in Bernard, I didn't sit at home fretting about him having conversations with people even though some of these are really difficult conversations that Bernard had to have with some of these people and I could put faith and trust in Bernard because I knew God was in, jesus, was with him and in him in those circumstances.
Speaker 2:This whole thing lasted from about March to about like September, october, before it was finally resolved. And so you know, at first we weren't sure is Bernard going to keep his job, okay? And then, if he keeps his job, are we staying here or are we moving, like we only just moved here? So there was a lot up in the air and there's a lot of uncertainty about our future. And, old Karen, I think I wouldn't have gotten out of bed, I would have been beside myself with stress and worry and I just felt at peace that you couldn't understand that came from nowhere but from jesus, because my circumstances were not bringing me any kind of peace yeah um and you know what the funny thing is.
Speaker 3:Sorry to cut you off, but um yeah, that's the second time, but anyway good thing, love keeps no record of wrongs, just no, I just um, like and, to be honest with you, rich, I would say for both of us, that wasn't, that wasn't the hardest challenge in 2023. Like, yeah, there was. There was a like, I would say for us, going back to um the like, there were a lot for me, I experienced, we experienced loss in 2023. You know, I had a scare and I'm going to preface this by saying you know, we're not victims. We went through some tough times, but we're sharing this so the listener can hear how good God is and how he carried us through it and how he was victorious in it.
Speaker 3:Like, just off the bat, for me, like in the beginning of that year, during that season, like my father was diagnosed with cancer, and it was like I was scared because, you know, I thought, is this going to be a season where I'm going to lose my dad? Like it was those kind of and my father is one of those people. He's old school, he doesn't want to talk about the situation. He doesn't want to, you know, share anything. I praise the Lord that you know he had a procedure and he's cancer free, but that, and then added on to the fact that my uncle passed away that same year, like my father's brother, and then the day of that funeral, where we said goodbye to my uncle, we drove back to where we were living and, um, our dog got sick and it was, and we had to put our dog down on the very same night and it was for me.
Speaker 3:For me, that was like just nail on top of like, just over and over again. But once again, god was like I've got you, I'm with you, you're going to be okay. Let's journey through this together and just feeling the overwhelming comfort in him, the love and the care that he brought us through, how he carried us through. And I guess one of the big things that we celebrated in 2023 was, you know, not just the curiosity of sex, but when we had. Was it the first time, babe? What the first? Was it the first time that we, that we? That was no, no, I'm not saying the first time, I was saying like no it wasn't the first time.
Speaker 1:You're saying was the first time. No, he's saying was the first time that you guys got pregnant. Yeah, that's what he's asking. Yeah, sorry, okay, like karen's, like no, we we had sex before that. We've been married 11 years.
Speaker 3:My bad. My bad, but that year in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in June we were on holiday and it was a total surprise, a total fluke, that we got pregnant.
Speaker 1:You guys know that. That's how it works.
Speaker 2:Like I, I didn't want to give you a science lesson, but when two people love each other, no, richard, you know, for two people who didn't have sex for 10 years, this was a complete shock to us.
Speaker 1:You're like we have a reset button.
Speaker 3:We have a miracle of life we have to learn everything all over again, man yeah, so we got pregnant.
Speaker 2:Wow, surprise, didn't?
Speaker 1:wasn't planning. You got pregnant on the way to come visit us in tennessee right yeah, I was, that's right when I was in Tennessee. Did you know you were?
Speaker 2:No, no, not at that point.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But yeah, um and yeah, I was Bernard when he was a kid. His dream was, by the time he was 22, he wanted to be married and have two children. This was his dream and um, I knew that. So when, eventually, I figured out, okay, I'm probably pregnant, I knew he was going to be so excited and so happy. This is another thing of how God works in mysterious ways. I guess I wanted children in theory, like you know, it's just like that's what you do. And when we were, you know, preparing for marriage, we're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll have a family, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then when we actually got married and it became an actual possibility, I at that point I was like, oh, I don't know if I want this. I don't actually think I want to have children. I would look at my friends with children. I was like you know what your life looks? Kind of sucky and I don't know if I want that.
Speaker 1:It does get a little sucky. I mean, for those of you who don't have kids, nah, it's awesome, it's great the whole time, no suckiness, but just between you and me it's hard, it's very hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know like we were young, well, kind of young. And you know like we were young, well kind of young, and we had made a commitment to go on one international holiday every year and we were just like living our lives and having fun and I saw children as something that would greatly reduce my happiness and impinge on my freedom and I didn't really want that. And that was actually a source of contention in our marriage. We had some very difficult conversations and arguments that were not very good, but in a way, I feel like that was also maybe part of God's protection, because I think, given what was happening in our marriage, if I so desperately wanted children on top of that, that just would have been another level of difficulty, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I was like, you know, if we never have children, I'm all good, we'll just be those cool people that just like travel around the world and have a lot of fun and, you know, be really great. And then I think it was something that Justin Koo posted once. This was even before freedom, but it started me thinking you know, the Bible calls or God calls children a gift. And Justin said, like, if we believe that our father is good, why would we think he would give us bad gifts? And that started me thinking about this. So then, when we got pregnant, I wasn't like, I guess, the typical like oh yes, this is all my dreams come true. I was a little bit like, ok, yep, yep, ok, this is going to happen. Okay, yep, yep, okay, this is going to happen.
Speaker 2:But because of what had been happening in my heart, because of what God had been doing in me, I could start to shift my thinking from my life is only about myself. The point of my life is to be comfortable and to be happy. This is all I ever want out of life. I don't want anything other than that, um.
Speaker 2:But because I believed God to be a good father, I could believe him when he said that children are a gift. I could believe I could actually start to live my life not only thinking about myself and my comfort and my happiness, and I could start to see the bigger picture of what having a family would actually show me about God and how he relates to me, and not to say I don't think everyone is meant to have children. I believe Paul when he talks about you know, marriage is not for everyone. I don't think having children is for everyone. But through that experience I started to really believe God when he said I give good gifts, and it helped me to, I guess, let go of some of the selfishness that I had been having, because really I wanted the point of my life to be comfort and fun and so anything that would go against that I wasn't interested. And so God really showed me that he didn't create me just to have nice holidays and to live a cushy life.
Speaker 1:He did create you for goodness and mercy to follow you all the rest of your life. But maybe that's not my ties on the beach, maybe it looks different than that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and that actually, through some of the experiences we had last year, I started to learn and to embrace that through difficulty, through things that are uncomfortable, there is lessons, but there is beauty in that and what we get out of those experiences is more valuable than jet-setting and drinking drinks by the pool, and so I can embrace these things.
Speaker 2:And also I didn't want to be a mother because I was like I don't want to be tired, it's going to be really hard and I don't have patience and I'm going to want to punch Bernard in the face every day. It's going to be all these terrible things. Face, every day, it's going to be all these terrible things. But now I know that I have an abundance of patience, that I have an abundance of love, that my joy is not dependent on my situation, that I have everything in Jesus. So, yes, I can go through hard things, yes, I can do difficult things because Jesus is with me and he gives me everything I need to be able to do those things. So it was really the gospel that changed me. From now, I never want children to. Oh, let's see what God does here.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're going to take a real quick break in the episode and I'm going to bring out my brother, grant G-H, not Grant Hill. Grant Herbal Grant, how long have you been rocking with the gospel? How?
Speaker 4:long has it been now? It's been about almost five years, ooh, five years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, december 2019. Quickly or slowly, very quickly, man, it seems, yeah, they've gone by quickly, december 2019.
Speaker 4:Quickly or slowly, very quickly, man it seems like it was yesterday, unbelievably quickly.
Speaker 1:Yep Mercy. What has the gospel done in changing your life, would you say, or has it even changed your life?
Speaker 4:Yeah, you could say that it's changed everything, man, it's been. There's just so, man, it's it's been um it just so many ways. Where to start? It's been, um, just a full acceptance and realization of, of God's love and just the ability to grow in that, instead of having to understand it first. Yeah that's all I got.
Speaker 1:That's powerful, dude. You've dedicated time, money, energy for this thing to move forward. You're a key, integral part in the gospel of moving forward. Why is that important to you, man?
Speaker 4:It's important because I want as many people as possible to. I want as many people as possible to be exposed to how much Jesus loves them and just to be able to share it in as many avenues as possible, for wherever people are.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. If you're listening to this and you want to partner with us and I say this every single week, but every single dollar goes towards this message of reconciliation going out to the world, whether through the podcast, whether through internet church, whether through Bible studies you can partner with us. Loverealityorg slash give, and we can get this thing moving forward. So, loverealityorg slash give, uh grant man, I appreciate you.
Speaker 4:Thanks for coming on thank you for having me yeah, and then, just like that, y'all were pregnant.
Speaker 1:Um, we were all excited. I don't know did the community end up finding out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you and Natalie were the second people to find out, don't?
Speaker 1:tell me that we told our therapist first. She was the first person to find out. Well, praise the Lord for a good therapist. We were so pumped, we were so pumped, and then this thing happened. How far along were you when, um when, you lost the baby?
Speaker 2:so, um, at the first eight week scan so you know they checked to see and we went in there and the sonographer said, oh, we can't actually see anything. They could see the egg sack, but there was nothing inside. And, rich, I can remember that moment so vividly I got so worried because I knew how much Bernard wanted to have children. Like I knew I would be okay if it didn't work out, but I was so worried about Bernard because I knew this had been something he wanted for so long. And so when she said, oh, we can't see anything, I was, I was devastated for Bernard and I looked over at him and he was just like fine, like calm, and when we left I was like you, are you okay? He's like it's like you know, surprisingly, actually, I am okay. Um, I mean, it's not a definitive answer they were like you know, maybe it's just too early and we'll do another scan and whatever. And then a couple of weeks went by and they did another scan and still there was nothing. And so at that point then we knew that there wasn't going to be a baby.
Speaker 2:It took a long time for the actual miscarriage to come on. That was an that that in and of itself is not a very pleasant experience, as you can imagine. Whenever someone says I have a miscarriage, I always think about the emotional toll that that takes, but I never thought about what physically happens to someone when they have to have a miscarriage. I ended up in the emergency and it all happened.
Speaker 2:And what happened after that, the weeks after that, was a really strange experience for me, because I thought, well, I wasn't that pumped to have kids to begin with, so like I'll be fine, like I'll weather through this, okay. But I didn't. I struggled. There were, of course, a lot of tears, and I think I was confused by my emotional experience until I read something that was saying like these losses, these experiences, we were never designed to experience these things. That's why it feels hard, that's why it feels foreign, that's why it's confusing, and so, even though this wasn't something I ever thought I wanted, I had lost something and I was never meant to lose my baby in that way. And so, yeah, the weeks afterwards were not easy. I mean, a few days after the like we had been an emergency.
Speaker 2:Um, my sister was supposed to get married like a week later, and she called us because her, her father-in-law, died suddenly of a heart attack oh mercy and um, that kind of snapped me out of what was happening to me, because now, like his dad lives in london, lived in london, so now we had to like cancel all the stuff for the wedding and help them quickly pack and book flights so that they could go over to go be with his family, um, and so there was like a lot happening all at the same time.
Speaker 2:You know, like Bernard's uncle died, like a few weeks later, like the miscarriage happening, then my sister's father-in-law died and we had put our dog down, and like there was a lot going on all at the same time time. And the gospel doesn't make us immune to the challenges and the pains of this world. You know, jesus said in this world you will have difficulty, you will have pain, but he said take heart, I have overcome the world. And so through that time, like we just held on to Jesus and he just held on to us, and, um, I don't think we would have made it if it wasn't for him.
Speaker 3:And I think one of the just to add onto that um, when, when, when that happened, add on to that um, when, when, when that happened, I remember the community that came around us, like especially the bible study community. Um, I remember words of wisdom and encouragement and comfort, uh, from elias, you know, and from yourself, you know, it's when you. There's a Bible passage that you shared and it's like don't mourn like the pagans mourn. And that resonated in my head because before I would have taken offense to that, because I'm like yo, you're pretty insensitive. Why are you going to drop that, telling me don't mourn, because I would have received it, as you know, get over it. You know, in one of the roughest years we've experienced, and you're telling me not to mourn, but then you emphasize the idea don't mourn like the pagans mourn because they have no hope. And that's what resonated with me, the fact that there is hope, there was always hope.
Speaker 3:I remember, oh man, I remember going on a walk with Karen towards the end of last year and I didn't know how to process the loss of the loss of my potential first baby. You know what I'm saying. And during that season, like I was thinking to myself, I was good, like I was honestly good. I was more careful, I was more mindful and weary for karen's safety and well-being and her health, um, and it was funny, I reciprocated. She came and the first thing she said to me after the miscarriage was I'm so sorry, like she was like, she felt that like she was partly responsible for it working out that way, and that was just lies from the enemy, um, but I praise the lord that he got us through it and we were able to say no, this wasn't meant to happen.
Speaker 3:Me and Karen were going for a walk one time, and you know, this whole idea was don't mourn, like the pagans mourn. I had a lump in my throat, I had that feeling on my chest again, and I was talking to Karen and I said you know, though, we're not going to see our baby in this lifetime. I know, when Jesus comes again, like I'm going to see my kid. And that gave me so much hope. Right, it's not that I wanted to like, like just leave everything, and just I wanted, like in anticipation, just to see my kid, because I just wanted to be a dad or I wanted to have a child so much, but it gave me so much more anticipation for the second coming.
Speaker 3:You know where that reunion takes place and I was at peace to know that I'm. You know that that I will see my child one day, and that gave me a lot of peace because I was able to mourn through that process. I was able to have that sense of closure, but have the closure in hope, and that became a testimony for me. I was able to share that to people to show that there was hope in Jesus Christ, there was hope in all areas of life and that became a real yeah, a real testimony in that season. So I just wanted to add that in there.
Speaker 2:I was also going to say, like, in these moments as well, like God comforts us in all different kinds of ways. At this point when this was happening, we lived an hour and a half away from, like, our family and our friends and our community and we had people drive down and just come and sit with us in our home and be with us, and when things like that happens, you know, when people who love you turn up and show up for you at difficult times physically, virtually or whatever it's just a reminder again of God's care and love for you, and I was so grateful for all those people who sent messages, who brought gifts, who checked in. Yeah, it really helps to, I think, I guess, ease some of the pain as you're going through it.
Speaker 1:So in many ways, 2023 was the wildest year of your guys' lives.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like me and Karen would kind of say that we took 2023, we took L in 2023 because of the circumstances.
Speaker 1:But then also, in some ways, you took the biggest W of all time.
Speaker 3:Yes, it was Rich. Yes, it was. We came out stronger than ever in our faith.
Speaker 1:But even at the beginning of the year, like the gospel. Maybe it was 2022 where you got that W and then 2023 you got that L, but because of the W, the biggest W of all time, that Jesus has actually done this thing, we can take 2023s. We don't want to um, it's not fun, but uh, man, in jesus's name, you guys like. Romans 5 is correct. James 1 is correct. You guys have grown um. Spoiler alert you guys are having a baby. What are you? 21, 22 weeks along 21 weeks.
Speaker 1:We're having a a little girl so wait, when is that due date?
Speaker 2:um end of november.
Speaker 1:They keep changing it, so that's the same as elias and gabby, who had a, had a miscarriage in 2023, and it's gonna be a bunch of babies around that time. It's going to be awesome. What were you going to say, bs? I'm drawing a blank. It's all right, continue. Well, I was just going to say this in wrapping this up we don't have to jump in the DeLorean and go back too far.
Speaker 3:Snap. Sorry, I just remembered it Sorry.
Speaker 1:I knew it.
Speaker 3:What I wanted to say was I also appreciate how good God is in the fact that he didn't allow what happened, like the miscarriage, to tarnish the experience of our second pregnancy. There was a lot of challenges in our second pregnancy, but our heart was always hopeful. Our heart was always, you know, we knew that God was going to take care of us, that we knew that God loved the baby more than we could ever love this baby, and so that we're 22 weeks, we're so hopeful, we're joyously anticipating the arrival of our baby. You know, and I think, and I'm so glad, that that experience or the previous experience didn't set us up to look at this experience in fear or, you know, knowing that it's going to be a loss, because I know that that's what would have happened before and I just wanted to really praise God for that, that he was able to, through the lens of hope or through the lens of his love and who he is. Allow me to look at this new experience with a real positive, through a positive lens.
Speaker 1:That's so beautiful and I'm sure you guys are open if people want to reach out to you if they are struggling with this. We know that so many people go through miscarriages. Hallie and I went we had one in between Noel and John John and you guys are open. I'm sure Elias and Gabby would be open to for people to reach out.
Speaker 1:Like I said, we don't have to jump back too far and I remember both eddie and I said to you guys have you counted the cost, like, have you counted the cost of, like, doing these interviews? And and you guys are like, yeah, it's all goods, it's all goods, yeah, it's all good, uh, and it's kind of unfair in some ways because you can't see what's coming. You can't see what's going to happen, uh. But now that you've gone through 2023 and we're halfway done a little more than halfway some ways, because you can't see what's coming, you can't see what's going to happen. But now that you've gone through 2023 and we're halfway done, a little more than halfway done, with 2024, looking back, what would you tell bees and Karen going, let's, let's say, back to January one, 2023, and you're about to experience all this stuff, what would you encourage yourself with?
Speaker 3:I'll go first. I'll keep mine succinct. You're right, I'm just going to keep it. Yeah, exactly, I just want to say, like, probably in the hard times where I'm all up in my fields, um, in those circumstances, irrespective of what, which one it was, um, I would remind myself that, um, jesus, jesus's work is complete, it was finished, it's done, and it's done in your life. You are fully satisfied in him. You lack absolutely nothing. You are living in the abundance of Christ, here and now, and you're not celebrating the benefits of Christ. It's not because you have Jesus. You have a good house, you know, or you have a good wife. It's not because of Jesus that you have this. You have Jesus because you have Jesus, and Christ is enough for you in all circumstances and you can live in the abundance of Him and His completed works in you. So you need not fear anything, um, and get over yourself. It's never about you, it's all about him. That's what I've ended with what would you?
Speaker 2:say karen um, that, karen, you like to think of yourself as a bit of a weakling and you can't do hard stuff, but you're about to experience some of probably the hardest, most trying things. But because of what you know is true about you now, and because you know what is true about Jesus, come hell or high water, he's carrying you, and so this is going to be tough, but he's carrying you. And so now, like you'll come to the end of this and I, richard, I feel like anything could happen to me now, anything, and I know with Jesus I can go anywhere.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. Well, you guys are a testimony in our lives. Uh, we love you guys so much. Uh, I think what's really going to be hard coming up is it's going to be weird when your daughter's name is Richard and it was like why, richard, that's a guy's name and we're like she. We just had to name her after her Tio big rich. We just had to name her after her Tio Big Rich. That's going to be awkward. I feel bad for her, but you know what it'll work hey man, RJ sounds nice for a girl.
Speaker 1:RJ, rj.
Speaker 3:Yeah, richard Jr yeah, we'll workshop it.
Speaker 1:We'll workshop it hey, thank you guys so much. This testimony is a blessing to me. You guys are a blessing to me and thanks for coming on.
Speaker 3:Be blessed brother, Much love.
Speaker 1:Man, just to see how they move through adversity. Romans 5, James 1 just comes up that hard times make us and they don't break us. And if you are experiencing a hard time, then this prayer is for you Father, thank you that this is not lost on me, that I can rejoice in this struggle that you're making me and that this thing will not break me because you promised and you love me. Thank you for doing your work in me in this tough time. In your name, we pray. In Jesus' name, we pray Amen.
Speaker 1:Why are you making noise over here, bro? Yeah, I want to make sure you have all the opportunity to join us on our circles. I have a circle on Wednesday and we've just been going through the book of Romans. We're in Romans 8. We got like two verses in last time. We are taking our time with it. It is the made new Bible study. I would love to hang out with you guys on Wednesday mornings at 930 Central. Come check us out. I would love to hang out with you guys on Wednesday mornings at 930 Central. Come check us out. Go to loverealityorg to see all the other options for Bible studies. Bye.