Ep 103: Final Fantasy 4 (Part 3) - All The Things We Didn't Talk About Yet

As we put a bow on our virtual round table regarding Final Fantasy 4, there's still so much to discuss. In this, the third and final installment on FF4, we take a shotgun approach to the stories by sharing - well - all the things we didn't on the previous episodes. We talk themes, story, logos, sound effects, and one particularly nasty wall in this omnibus episode. 

STARRING (all handles from Twitter)

Barry Carenza of Premium Edition Games (@HawkHellfire)
Greg Sewart of the Player One Podcast and Generation 16 (@sewart)
John Trenbeath (@crazyjohnt)
Julian Titus (@julian_titus) of The Stage Select Podcast (@StageSelectPod)
Mekel Kasanova (@MekelKasanova)
Mike of the Distorted Illuminations YouTube channel (@MadMonarch_DI)
Mike aka MageORage on Twitch and YouTube (@mageorage)
Moses aka @thewellredmage of the-pixels.com and Gamelogica on YouTube
Mustin, music producer (@Mustin)
Ryan Lindsay of KISS 105.3 in Ottawa (THERyanLindsay)
Trevor and Jeff of New Dad Gaming Podcast (@NewDadGaming)

SONG COVERS

Main Theme of FINAL FANTASY IV (Piano Cover) by Animalisa Keys - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlUFeCJ7T5c

Final Fantasy 4 / IV Guitar Cover - Theme of Love by Sam Griffin - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-79Ntl3pyHc

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Transcript

0:21

Hello and welcome to episode 103 of A Gamer Looks At 40. I'm Bill Tucker and this week's episode isn't going to have the cold open. It's no dramatic music at the beginning. Just a strange compilation of thoughts, ideas and recollections. Now, unlike part one and part two, where we had firm guidelines on the stories being shared, this one's a bit of a mixed bag and In this, our final part of the Final Fantasy IV puzzle, we are going to discuss mechanics, story, silly critiques, and various random comments designed to delight and maybe confound, or a little bit of both. You know, not for nothing, not every episode needs to be this tightly wound snare drum of narrative and journalistic drive. Sometimes it can be as random as a frying pan to the back of Yang's head. Time to board our airship, embark for the moon, and try to ignore that whole walking around without oxygen thing as we embark upon Final Fantasy IV, part three, all the things we haven't talked about yet. When I think Final Fantasy fan, a few names come instantly to mind. Moses, aka the well -read mage of the pixels .com and GameLogica on YouTube is one of them. To open the episode, Moses shares why he thinks new players should start with this 16 -bit classic. Four is actually the game that I would say to almost anybody. To start with if you wanted to start with the Final Fantasy series, where do you start? You could start with the first one. Let's face the first one was rough. It is Yeah, it is rough. I've never beaten the NES version because every time I tried I've hated it I think it's one of those where you have to grow up with it. I unfortunately did not I wish I had because I you know, it's a foundational game same thing with Dragon Warrior I didn't have it as a kid played it for the first time as an adult love love those games and what they represent, but they're not exactly my favorite games to play. But four, I think if you. You know, can look at yourself and and realize that you are not just your preferences. That you're capable of understanding, you know, a piece of entertainment, if you want to call it a work of art, whatever. As as as separate from. is almost, you know, like we were saying about Drakken as separate from your preferences and still able to find what's good or what's bad in something aside from your preferences, then I think you have the capacity to enjoy Final Fantasy four. It's a game that's meant a lot to a lot of people, but I think fundamentally it's really it seems like in a lot of ways it's the first Final Fantasy, despite being the fourth. You know, it doesn't have interchangeable jobs, but then neither did one. It had jobs that you picked from the start. And you do get different jobs in the form of characters entering and leaving your party. But the active time battle system is here. It wound up being a huge, huge influence upon a lot of Final Fantasy games. And it really is the one that that starts to feel like it's confident in. in the direction that the series is going in. It has a voice. It feels like it has a voice. And I think they took one, two, and three and took the best parts of all three and combined to one. Even with the jobs, like you said, when you have characters switching out, that's your job switching. So instead of focusing on these in Final Fantasy 3, where like we just said, you have these four characters that have literally almost no story, but lots of different jobs and things to do. I think they realized, hey, let's really lean into the characters and have the jobs just be part of those characters. So if you enjoy the jobs, you still get your Dragoon, you'll still get your mages, you'll still get all those things. But some of the, it's focusing more on the characters and those journeys. And I think it's really effective, really effective. Yeah, it really is. So I don't care if a person doesn't like retro games or if a person only plays modern games or whatever. you need to play final fantasy four. I think if you want a comprehensive perspective on what the series is and can appreciate. Or gain an appreciation, whether to the positive or negative for the subversion of some of those elements in current final fantasy, I think you have to have a chronological understanding of a historical understanding of final fantasy. And that's really a hundred percent for. So, you know, play this one. I wouldn't recommend people jump straight into five after four, play six. Five is a great game, but it's also a comedy, which I think people will really get thrown off about. Obviously there's comedic elements in other Final Fantasies, but that is the only one that I would say it's a comedy rather than a drama. It felt like a farce. Yeah, yeah. It's like a classic farce. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Five I did not finish. I bounced off of it. I was going through all the remasters in one go like, I hit five and I just hit the wall. I was like, okay, too much. Eventually you fatigue too. I fatigued. I fatigued. I just ran out of steam. I liked it fine, but I just fit on it. Cause I tried the same thing. You know, I was beat one, two, three. And then after I beat three, I was like, I don't want to do any more of these. I was held down on four because I didn't play four as a kid. I played four relatively recently, maybe a few years ago, and then I played it again on the remasters. So I don't have a lot of strong personal nostalgia for four at all. Like Final Fantasy six, Final Fantasy one was extremely formative and very important to me as a person. And then Final Fantasy six. That's when I jumped in and realized, wow, games can tell these amazing stories. I had no idea. Wow, that's cool. And we're going to talk at length at six. It might be a Final Fantasy six month. I can't. Yeah, you have to. Because there's so much. I might do a show just on Kefka. Yeah, you should. I think I might have to because again, we're going to talk about it. We're going to take our time and really take our time with four and six, of course. But man, there is so much there. But for four, it was very much so for me. OK, this is a game I didn't experience as a kid. What's it like now? And sure enough, I was really just taken aback by it. And again, as an older gamer who doesn't have the time that an 11 year old has, I loved how trim it moves. And you can get through that game in 20 hours. And these days, that's lovely. It is. I beat a game in 20 hours instead of 100 plus. Yeah. 100 plus. Right. Exactly. It's like, man, 16. Do I really want to go through 100 hours a game again? No, it's good. It's not grindy. It's relatively short. The pacing is really good. It's just it's totally worth playing in 2024, you know, no I thousand percent agree When a gamer looks at 40, we don't often focus on gameplay. As a memories and recollections show, I like to leave the nuts and bolts to, you know, reviewers. People who are good at that sort of thing. But that doesn't mean the topic is completely off limits. And when you're talking about a game like Final Fantasy IV, inevitably, how it feels in your hands is going to come up. Starting us off on a brief conversation regarding the mechanics of Final Fantasy IV, is Greg Seward of the Player One podcast and Generation 16 series of videos, followed by Julian of the State Select podcast, and finally, John of the B. Crohn's Foundation. I mean, the ATB system, we did talk about that very briefly, how revolutionary that was and how it really became the standard for generations, I think. I mean, really. Yeah. And not just in Final Fantasy. I feel like anywhere. I feel like it influenced. Japanese role -playing games in general for a long time. Even just as a building block to create something else. I look at something like, one of my all-time favorite battle systems in an RPG is the original Grandia on the Saturn and PlayStation. Not that it's too similar to that, but I always felt that you could see the influence in that system because... Basically, they took the same idea, but they put all of the characters on the screen, both enemies and protagonists on one timeline, and you could see who was about to go next, and you sort of had to plan your strategy around that. I think that was, for me, like, the ATB, it made the fighting feel a little bit more active. I mean, even playing it the last few days, I realized, especially, I just came down out of Mount Ordeal on the remake, the Pixel remaster, and realizing that because I was casting so many spells, because it's really a magic sort of section of the game, that I wasn't even really watching what was happening on the screen as much as I was watching the next menu to set up the different spells and the different sort of... I'll say combo, it's not really a combo, but you know, I want this, I want Palom to heal and, and Telet is cast this black magic and that sort of thing. And in as much as it made the battle system, the battles feel more dynamic and more active, it also just lent this whole new strategy element to it because again, having only played the first Final Fantasy before that, or having played the two fantasy star games that I'd played at that point. You never know who was going next. Sure. Right. It was it was sort of a crapshoot. It's like, well, the game knows there's there's a clock in there. There's a number in there somewhere. Yeah. But they they'd never you know, they hadn't pulled back the cover and shown that to us. There were no discrete numbers anywhere on screen that told you what was about to happen. So I really feel like the ATB was kind of like the first time, at least in North America, that we were seeing stuff like that. And it always felt like. from that point on, you started to see it more often even in other games, not just Squaresoft games. And that, yeah, it was hugely influential. Are you more of a wait or an active player with the ATB? Do you like to have the game pause while you're figuring things out or do you want to keep rolling? yeah. yeah. Yeah. I'm a wait. I'm a wait kind of guy. Time out. Time out. I need to think. I need to think. Yeah. I want to know what I'm going to do next. I want to, you know, I want to be able to navigate all those menus and yeah. The world can pause. The world can wait for me, not the other way around. Yeah, I'm playing this game, not you game. I'm playing. I'm in control. Exactly. Don't make me just hit pause or something. Yeah, that's... I'm very exactly... I don't know anybody who does it active. That's a pretty brutal... You gotta know what you're doing, I guess. Well, that's the thing. Yeah, you have to just know what you're doing. For sure. Yeah. For sure, for sure. And this is actually something I've just recently shed. I was never a fan of job systems because I always felt like I had too much control and I was always too afraid of doing the wrong one. So I had to read something about it, which completely removes the point of a job system, which is experimentation and trying things out. And I never liked saying, OK, I'm going to put all my effort into making this person a fighter, right? Because that's what I need right now. Why would I start over with another with another class or another job type? Now five, I like the way five implements it. We'll talk about five. But that kind of central thing never worked for me. But I loved in four where you do have those job classes, but they're static. So you're focusing on these characters that represent jobs as opposed to random characters that you change jobs in. I personally really appreciate it. Yeah, but it's also interesting and you kind of got to have to think about Final Fantasy four from like the Japanese players perspective. who had gotten to see one, two and three beforehand. And as I had said, you know, in a previous interview, right? Like going back through from the beginning, I can see the steps from one to two to three to four and how four is that culmination of the Famicom era games, right? Because you do have the turn -based system. You do have like the named characters that have backstories a la Final Fantasy II, but then they are also... jobs that you would know from Final Fantasy III and also one to an extent, right? But I love the fact that it actually also factors in to the story, right? Kane being a dragoon is part of his character. Same thing with Yang being a monk. But then like the core of Cecil's story is that he is a Dark Knight and the Dark Knight can only go so far when it comes to combating evil. And then when he job changes into a Paladin, he starts at level one. which is what happens in a Final Fantasy game when you change jobs. And it's also my favorite part in the game because going back down Mount Ordeals and having Cecil just level up like 10 times in a fight is just so satisfying. And I will just power level him like on that mountain and also get like Palam and Porom to like a good enough level where they've got like level three spells. So then I'm just like completely overpowered for like the next elemental. boss but I just love the way that that factors in to the story and honestly Dark Knight is my favorite Final Fantasy class and it's because of Final Fantasy 4. I just love it. It's so edgy. Interesting. And you do get you've got a story that goes along with it you do have people that die for a little while and then come back but You know while you're playing it you think they're dead You've got a very diverse cast of characters I one of the things I do really really love about Final Fantasy 4 is the way your mages learn spells, is they just learn it naturally. You don't have to go find anything, you don't have to buy anything. You just naturally progress into getting those abilities. Now, with Rydia getting, you know, as a caller, as she was in that piece, she wasn't a summoner yet, that was way too advanced of a thing for us Americans to get grasp of. You know, she's got a column. Titan can you come smash these guys for me? I need they're making me mad. Sorry You know, so you know, that's the only time you have to go and do optional things to get Leviathan and Asherah and Bahamut right? How do you how do you do you say it Bahamut? I say Bahamut. I say Bahamut. That's okay. I That's how I've yeah, I know there's some people Bahamut Bahamut Language is fluid. We don't say the in thou anymore. It's fine. I know whatever you want to say. It's perfectly fine There's more important things to argue about Bahamas the cool dragon guy Dragon dude that makes big fire happen. Yes. Yeah But that's one of the things I really like about that game is There's not a lot, there's not a lot that you have to be afraid of missing. Like, man, you know, there's a, I forgot to go down this one little hallway and miss this really cool thing. It's like, no, you just kind of progresses along. And if you get curious about some stuff, you can find extra cool things. Cause you can beat the game and never have some of those items or get some of those, those monsters called. For the last couple of episodes we've been talking about story from the perspective of moments, memories, and characters. On today's episode we're talking themes. Starting this section is Barry Kerenza of Premium Edition Games, followed by Mike of the Distorted Illuminations YouTube channel, and finally Kiss 105 .3 in Ottawa radio host Ryan Lindsay. It's just an emotional game. on a whole new level versus Final Fantasy 1 -3. It really said, it's like some games, when they jump to the 16 -bit, we're gonna use the power, better graphics, bigger levels, more action. Final Fantasy is like deeper storytelling. That's what we're doing. Because Final Fantasy 4, if you look at it, Super Nintendo, it didn't really harness the power of the Super Nintendo. Mode 7, sure, but you look at the sprites versus Final Fantasy 6, and it's like, Wow, big difference. Final Fantasy IV almost could have been an NES game if they really wanted it to. And it's like, wow. Instead of using that to make better sprites, they did such a richer and deeper storytelling that was not possible with the limitations of the NES. And they knocked it out of the park. I mean, what a tremendous, tremendous game. I and it's interesting you mentioned to about about how the emotional weight of Final Fantasy four and because remember Final Fantasy four was a very early SNES games. It was not a 91 launch title. It was a launch game. Yeah, it was it was I believe it wasn't official launch title. It was a holiday. It was launched. Thank you. There you go. Exactly right. Now you're right. I did a article on the SNES launch was I don't know why that. that actually had to come out of my head. I'm sorry, you're right, it is launch window. It was a holiday game, but it was a holiday game. So it was, you're right. It did not harness the power, had mode seven, because everything had to have mode seven, the early Super Nintendo days. I suspect that was a requirement. F -Zero, pilot wings. Everything. Super tennis had like a thumb thing coming into your face. Yeah. So anyway, so, but it's interesting that they use that power for that. And then when you get to Final Fantasy six or three, That's 95. That's like at the end of the life cycle, they know exactly how to make that hardware sing and do incredible stuff with it. So I do, I agree. I think they did, made a smart choice and said, Hey, let's strip this down. Let's make this relatively linear. Let's the job system. Let's really just focus on this, on the characters. Let's take these jobs and apply them to characters. And while you may lose the customization, you're gonna get a lot more richness, because we're gonna have a deeper story that we can tell when we have characters that have these roles, these gameplay roles that fit into personality. And it's, yeah, it's done it. It's great. It's interesting if you look at that, because Final Fantasy I was job system. Final Fantasy II was characters with dedicated jobs already established. Final Fantasy III went back to the job system. Final Fantasy IV went to characters with jobs already established. five back to job system, six characters with jobs already established, but with the espers also customization seven same thing, but with materia it's like they're like, all right, after going back and forth, let's just kind of do both at the same time. Yeah, no, exactly right. You're exactly right. Are you the strong opinions or stories from your world of Final Fantasy IV? Because again, it sounds like you had a really close relationship with it too. It sounds like you played it a ton. Like, I love just how well it handles a lot of those themes. Again, as you get older, some things you appreciate a bit more. Sure. But even as a kid, so much just hits you instantly in that game. I think that's kind of one of the things that game did well is even without a lot of setup. It manages to get the emotions it wants to across. Now that I'm a bit older, I do look back and go, okay, some of this may have felt a little more rushed than it could have. Things could have probably been done a bit better, but it's still great. Like even as a kid, I remember the whole Zermis thing being, okay, you see the Zemus guy that's behind everything. You get this crystal. What is this crystal? Don't know, but it turns them into Xerathmas. Now you have the real last fight. And I'm like, what was on that? What just happened? So your thinking was it felt a little rushed maybe, like in the presentation or in the storytelling? At times, yeah. Yeah, that's fair. And it's a very early Super Nintendo game. I think people forget it was a launch title, at least for holiday. I'm pretty sure it was either a launch title or it was for that holiday release. Like it was a very early in the life cycle. It was 91, so. yeah. I will say though, years later looking back at some of the Ingrish release, I will never not laugh at the random dwarf child that just asks, do you have an ogrish one? Do you have an ogrish one? It's pretty good. And if you want a little insight into some of the insanity I would try to do as a kid, in my head, you know, even though this is my first RPG, I'm like, there's no way they're going to put me in a fight. I can lose. But you know you have the fight with Kane which you lose goes on like I'm a beat this fight I could know this no emulators. I didn't have internet to tell me I couldn't do this now I could not tell you how long I like just fought with only Cecil in my party I'm winning this fight Wow, and you had no idea was it on I always wonder that when it comes to in one bull fights Where's the kid who's buckled down and said, no, I am not accepting this loss, resets as soon as he dies and tries it again? That was you. Yep, that was me. my gosh, that's so good. I didn't know it the first time I played the game. But when I went back there, I'm like, I'm beating him this time. He's going down. He's going down. That's crazy. So what did you eventually just say, it's impossible, and then realize that the point was to... to lose, I guess the story beat is to lose. Yeah, I realize like that. Mind you, I couldn't tell you the level I was actually at by that point, but sure, I did hit the point. I'm like, all right, this either there is some weird thing to do that I am not understanding or this is just not happening, right? This is just not. This is not meant to be clearly. from that game that you really just need to connect with or just bolt you over again as a kid or as an adult either way. I mean as a kid they didn't hit as hard. The more I saw all these little moments like instead of appearing as a kid I'm like look guys cool and and that was the reaction of pretty much every moment that happened aside from Paladin form even as a kid I understood the gravity of that one a little bit. Sure. Cecil moving into being a Paladin was a huge moment like what just happened dude he's got pink hair this is huge what just happened? This is a big moment. As an adult going back and playing it again, all of the storyline arcs have a moment that punches you in the heart. It didn't hit me when I was a kid. But like Rydia dealing with everything that she's lost in the very first, what, hour you're playing the game? Huge. Massive. The love stories and angles that were intertwined that as a kid you're like, blech, ew, kisses, gross. Now I'm looking back on it like, wow, this is really well written and almost gave me something to strive for as I got older. Like as dumb as it sounds, video games may have actually fed a little bit of the like desire to be a bit of a romantic. Hey, it was the first time I had seen anything that that related to that way. Or like it had, it was definitely. formative for I think a lot of people in that way. I think that makes a lot of sense. Totally storylines were there. Again, that's another thing that made us all kind of fall in love with the game. You had these moments, you had these emotional connections, you have these characters and these teeny things that happen. You're like, wow, OK, I'm feeling some type of emotion now because that teeny little sprite is singing to another sprite. What just happened? This is really, really cool. Or or the the hatred that you felt for the villains and their consistent need to. to step in and mess with everything and stop you at every turn, it hits so hard as a kid from that side. As an adult, I'm like, wow, these are, it's cheesy, but it's still well done, you know? It is time once again to thank my wonderful patrons! Starting with Greg Seward of the aforementioned Player One Podcast and Generation 16 series of videos, the Let's Play Princess, Tim Knowles formerly of the Lidist, Seth Sergel of the All N Podcast, Terry Knair, Games with Coffee, BT Gobbles, Julian of the State Select Podcast, and finally the wonderful and always well -groomed Pete Harney. I don't know that as a fact, I'm just assuming. If you want to join these amazing human beings in supporting the show financially, move on over to A Gamer Looks At 40 on Patreon. Patreon .com forward slash A Gamer Looks At 40. Review the tiers and if something strikes your fancy, sign up today. And one of the many comments I heard over and over again during my interviews was, Final Fantasy IV is a tight experience and you should play it first. Building on those ideas is content creator Mikhail Kasanova, followed by musician and video game remaster Mustin, then John returns before Mike of Major Rage TV swings by to give his opinions and perspectives. I really got into the story because you know... the whole thing about redemption for Cecil and, you know, the betrayals, constant betrayals from Kane and then the love story between Cecil and Rosa. And it was just, you know, you look at it now and it's not really that elaborate of a story. But then, you know, in context of early nineties, it's really like the only other thing I can think of right back then. As far as in the West that we had that could even be equal to probably be fantasy start to we don't talk about fancy star three, but I'm sorry about that one. I'll mention that one. That's yeah, we don't talk about that. But yeah, but because I played for fancy to first, like it really stuck with me and on everything that just going through that learning because. For those of you who are too young to understand back then, RPGs were not really the norm because you usually had platformers, shoot them ups or schmups and, what is it? Size, belt scrollers. We used to call them back in the day or beat them ups and, and fighting games. Those are the rage. So when you had a, an RPG, that was super, super niche. So yeah, that, that got me into it. I got really addicted to it and. You know, I went back and I think the summer, I think it was a year came out. Yeah. That year came out. I think that summer or that fall, I played through it twice on my own, just because I was so enraptured with it. And I really wanted to play another one. And I think we, we picked up Fallen Fantasy 1 for the NES, but it was just too archaic for me. And the fact that the story just really wasn't like, there's a pretty good story there is very basic but it didn't grab me the way to did so especially about the story. It's amazing the paladin moment, which I replayed Final Fantasy 4 last year, I think, in preparation for this whole series. And it had been a solid 15 years since I had played it. And I was baffled how well it holds up. Final Fantasy 4, it has no fat on it. It's a trim game. And I like how you mentioned also it's linear. It doesn't feel linear, but it definitely, there is a path to follow if you're paying attention. Yeah. I think it's good. There are some of those little extra caves you don't have to go into. and some of the summons and stuff, but as far as the story goes, it's, it's all, it's all good. It doesn't matter what you do or, you know, whether or not you talk to a character first or eat some old man's lunch, it's just going to be this game. the dark night in his little character sprite in the menu screen. Did you ever watch In Living Color back in the day? Yeah, I watched some of it. Yeah, a little bit. I wasn't a regular watcher, but a bit. Do you remember the character they had on there called the head detective? It was just a little head with a pair of shoes under his feet. I think so. The sprite of Cecil in the... Menu screen is the head detective. Okay from In living color. No, it's detective in living color. Okay, here we go. Let's see I'm looking at it now. that's really now now go find Cecil go find it. Yeah And it's the way like his armor looks see if I can find this here But the ways armor looks I thought a little headshot a little headshot Yeah, yeah in the menu because like the ways armor looks right underneath his head. It looks like two little feet At least that's what I owe. That's what I always see. All right, we're gonna validate this I'm gonna putting everything on pause just so I can Yes, yes, I see it. I see it. You see it. Yes, I do I do see it. I'm very ridiculous. It's the two little bumps on the bottom underneath his chin. Yeah, they look like two little feet. He looks like the head detective. So I'm glad I'm glad that it's not just me like it was like me and my cousin make that joke all the time. He's the one that had Ultima Exodus. It's so and like both he and I love Ford to death. Like it's our. I think for both of us, it's our favorite game. And so, but we've always made that joke about like, yeah, he looks like the head detective. So I'm glad that you can see it, even though you weren't really familiar with the head detective character, just seeing those two pictures side by side, it's like, yeah, it's there. For those listening, do this, go on this journey. Take two minutes of your day, go on this little journey. You will never look at that little headshot on the Final Fantasy IV. Super Nintendo version again the same way. That's really really funny. What are some big I mean Final Fantasy 4 as you basically said is a very curated experience and I love it for that. I love how every file of any Final Fantasy game maybe other than X but I would still put Final Fantasy 4 ahead of it. It's got no fat on it. It's like a lean no curated tight experience like. Every swing it takes connects. And now you can't say that about Six because Six is bigger, more expansive. And I have a personal love for Six that I can't even be objective about Six. That's how much I connect with it personally because I didn't play four as a kid. I played it as much in my life. But when I played it again on the remasters, especially, I was just struck by how narratively tight it is. And it just, the game just moves and it's a really... I would almost say if you want to play a 16 -bit Final Fantasy game and you were unfamiliar with Final Fantasy, I would probably say start with four before six because you get the rhythms in, you know? You get a really good feel for what an RPG can be, or a JRPG, because that's exactly it. You don't have to do a lot of grinding. At the end, you do. You should do some grinding at the end. You don't have to... really do a lot of exploring, like I don't know where to go next. There's not a lot of that. And there's plenty of places that you can save the game. I wouldn't necessarily call it hand holding, but you kind of get a picture of what it is you need to do and where you need to go. And it's like, yeah, at the end, because there's those little hidden paths that you can go on to get all the best weapons and stuff like that. That's really the only time it's like I'm not really sure where to go in this maze to get these things I see this weapon over here, but I don't know how to get it That's you know, but by that point you kind of want to go do a little exploring you want to go beef your party up Yeah want to go edge for the love of God, please stop dying just You're so you're a ninja You're a ninja. I know I can put you in the back row, but for god's sakes take a hit man That was the only thing I will say Like Edge is so underpowered Yeah at the end game like like everyone else is just you know moving along and you know Calling down the thunder of the gods. You're calling a dragon for god's sakes Edge is like, I'm gonna hit you with my sword. don't hit me back. no. Like, yeah, like I know you can put him in the back. Yeah, I know you can put him in the back row and do that, but you shouldn't have to do that. You shouldn't have to have Kane and Cecil in the front. Exactly. You know, he's a ninja. Yes. But, you know, I'll put him in front all the same and watch him die and just go, OK, fine. Here's another life to spell for you, guy. You have a great point about just the sacrifice of, you know, being such a motif throughout the game and a recurring occurrence and theme. I mean, we've got Tella, Yang, Sid. Very melodramatic. I have this kind of I kind of have this theory that like most Final Fantasy titles, especially like the big core ones, are a type of play. or movie. And so four, four I feel like is the melodrama of the series. If six is your opera and seven was your first big budget film, four is your melodrama and Golbez is your your villain. He's he's taken the damsel and putting her in distress. He might as well tie her to a railroad track when he has her in the Tower of Zot. You're exactly that's a very good. I have not heard that before. That's a very interesting way of framing Final Fantasy four as in terms of its cinematics and its storytelling structure. I think that's actually really good and interesting. And it's a good melodrama. Like, again, melodrama is sometimes used as a as a pejorative, but I don't know. There's something really good and charming about about it. And charming is a perfect word for melodrama. I feel the same way about melodramas. Yeah, yeah, I think it's there's something I like very charming about it. And what I also really appreciate for four is I think four is such a tight game of all the Final Fantasy games. I would say Final Fantasy four. I can't say it's my the best, but I think it's definitely the tightest, the tightest one. It's got no fat on it. There's no it's a lean, wonderfully crafted story, a blend of mechanics and jobs and satin music, of course, and everything else. It's really extraordinarily crafted. My heart is for 6. I love 6. That's a formative game for me. But 4 is such a surprisingly great adventure. It's so good. completely agree with everything you just said. The side quests that you have in it, they're few, but they're meaningful, and they're fairly unobtuse. Getting the pink tail being kind of the exception to that, but the rest of it, it kind of follows. You get the hint for the smith, you find him in the dwarven world, he tells you what he wants. Yo, get the adamantite or the smith as he needs adamantite. Then you find the person who wants to trade. But finding finding the pink tail, that's just it's a whole thing in and of itself. I consider it a badge of honor. I apparently had really good RNG as as a middle schooler. And nice. I never thought that it was like a rare or hard thing to get. I thought it was just like you needed to know where to go and just be patient for a little bit. Didn't realize the drop rate was as incredibly low as it is until I got yeah to be an adult And I had trouble with it. I'm like why the hell isn't it dropping? This is nuts How long am I supposed to do this for that's right? This feels like getting the sword of Kings. Yeah, right That's really funny. I I yeah, I don't remember the drop rate, but I do remember that being just just a tricky thing But yeah, no I cuz it's also You know, Final Fantasy 4, I think, is also very linear in that way, but to its benefit, because again, that's why I think it's so trim and just a great the pacing is excellent, too, in that game. Like you always feel like you're making progress. You always feel like you're moving forward. Yeah, there's lots of really amazing things in there. Now, even the most ardent fan will have a hard time finding major faults in Final Fantasy four, but you can have loads of minor quibbles. In a section included purely for funsos, Moses joins the chat to discuss the realistic rendering of some of the characters in other versions of the game. Barry bemoans one too many logos and Ryan has an issue with sound effects. Palimperum for some reason I really We're fun. I'm like, I like the I was really drawn to them for some reason, maybe because they were kids and they're just maybe. Yeah, they had that that bickering between a brother, sister kind of bickering was very endearing to me. I don't know why I just really enjoyed spending time. Now, have you seen their their more realistic renders? I think it's from the I'm not. OK, I don't know. How do I share an image with you here? There is a channel. All right. I hope you're sitting down. So I bring this up to kind of, you know, just illustrate a point about the period of time that this game appeared in. It didn't facilitate graphics that looked, you know, quite like this. And I don't think that it needed to, because once you look at these characters... Isn't there something just Wrong about that like it just looks there there There's an uncanny valley. Yeah occurring here exactly that that's unsettling. Yeah, I know. no, I don't like that at all They feel like they feel like like they feel like like porcelain dolls that come to life Yeah, there's something no no something weird Little cursed. You gotta stop. Okay, you're not studying me too many of these things. No, the third one is wash your brains out. The third one is the Yoshitaka Amano version. Yeah. And the third one is the Amano version, which is playful and fun. They have a little mischievousness to them. Where they look like children. Yes, they look like kids and they're playing little monsters. Not sure what the other ones are supposed to be. They look like some weird kind of... Proportions are... Polar Express. There it is. Polar Express. Polar Express. They belong sitting next to Tom Hanks on a train headed to the North Pole. That's where they need to be. And so, yeah, again, I bring that up to say there may be people listening who, you know, won't be too familiar with Final Fantasy 4 and may not want to play Final Fantasy 4 because of the way it looks. And that's just an unfortunate reality of Not just games, but art in general. I don't want to see that because I don't like the way it looks. And everybody's entitled to their own preference in maintaining those. And that's fine. But making them more realistic does not make them better. You know, I'll meet folk who are like, I hope they give the Final Fantasy 7 remake treatment to every Final Fantasy. And I was like, it won't work. It just will not work. We've seen Square pursue. rendering the Final Fantasy seven characters into realistic worlds. So that all makes sense. They've done kind of that process. But with some of these worlds, they just look better as little chibi sprites. They just do. Because the original art design was designed or intended to. show you character because of those limitations. So they had to be very intentional, I feel, in how they designed these characters, designed these animations, how to make them emote, you know, with using very limited animations. So when you up res it and make it more modern with all the technology we have, you have to then replace that with something. Like some of that charm, that light is gone. And I don't know what it is. If I knew what it is, I'd be a millionaire because I would harness that knowledge and use it for the forces of good as opposed to evil. But I there's something lost when you make it too pretty. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I think it may and personally, it may be kind of like reading a book as opposed to seeing a movie where you have to fill in the blanks yourself. So if I see a little character or a 16 bit character on a screen, I don't have all the details. My brain will fill that in, though. Yeah. Like when I'm reading a book. most authors aren't going to tell you exactly what a character looks like. They give you the high points so you can place them, but you fill in the rest of the stuff yourself. I think it's very similar when it comes to retro games. We'll do that work. Our imaginations will do that for us. And when everything is out there displayed, I now have no choice but to accept what the game is giving me. And if it doesn't quite jive perfectly, then that's where I think cause some friction. So when you go from the simple to the complex, My personal the things I've put inside of it to fill in those blanks if they're not represented in the new and fancy and shiny That causes a weird dissonance and that's not necessarily fair. I think that's just the way adaptations work and that's because we can get to a whole other conversation. Right? No, I get what you're saying. Adaptations and but you know what I mean? So long way of saying I agree. Yeah. Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think that like on a scale of style versus substance. Four skews heavily towards substance versus style. Whereas I'm going to go out on a limb and say a lot of new Final Fantasy skews more towards style versus substance. There is a lot of very impressive visuals coming out of some of Square's AAA work. Not all of it. Four spoken, I'm thinking about you right now. Four spoken. It never had a chance. It didn't deserve one. Anyways, but with four though, yeah, I think you're looking at something that couldn't really, say, have the style of some of the more impressive, visually impressive, Super Nintendo RPGs. And so it kind of has to rely on other tactics in order to generate that engagement and that interest. And I think it does that rather well. problem with it I'd say the only thing is it's the only game in them that has two logos and it's like what the heck yeah you know which one which one is now the official because for remakes doesn't say remake it just you it's right well I mean Final Fantasy one two and three technically do too but I don't really count the original logos I like the stylized logo but four has two of the stylized logo you know one with the dragon the new one and one with Kane and to me it's always gonna be Kane. But it's just funny. Why? Why'd you have to make a new logo? That's so good. I love that. That's very funny. It's a me. It's a it's a marvel that it and it's early Super Nintendo to like it's we're talking in 1991, late 91 release date on in North America. And it is remarkable. It takes the first three Final Fantasies and just creates this awesome distillation. It just contains this great distillation of story and gameplay. I love the way it plays, too. I mean, it was the first one that had the active time system, if I'm not mistaken. Pretty confident. That's right. Change your man. Yeah. Totally. That was, I played the first Final Fantasy as a kid on the NES and you know, waiting for characters to do their thing, ineffective, stabbing air. my God. All that going away and having this really elegant system where it felt more dynamic but still turn -based, that blew my mind. That was one of those just eye -openers for me. Plus when there were spells cast, and I may get some serious boos and hisses from people for this, If there's one thing I despised about the original on the NES when I was a kid, it's the sound of like a lit spell. next level. I cannot handle it. And I'm a big audio nerd now, this whole doing radio for as long as I have now. Going back, it's still great. It grates me a little bit. Is it the spell itself or is it the actual connecting sound? Is that the actual? No, not the kshh. That kshh. Yeah. Kshh noise isn't that bad. As weird as it sounds because hearing it now, making that noise, I'm like, God, that's terrible. No, the spell noises. did I hate them. Hated them with a passion. One, we get. Well, I'm going to. Two, four, whatever. Beautiful. Completely different. I'm going to just drop that right here. So editor Bill later, just drop a sound effect. Just drop it there. Here it is. My fist and scream at the sky. Okay, we're good. We're good. Pretend I have like, you know, like an instant replay or something in front of me where I can actually do that on the fly. I do not. As you can see, the black mage here is casting this. You're drawing a little circle. Making a little movement like you're. Did you know they tried to make a sequel to Final Fantasy 4 known as the After Years? Did you know it was initially released on everyone's favorite platform of choice, mobile and WiiWare? Did you know you had to buy it in pieces? Well neither did I until researching for this series and asking my guests if they had played it. Most of them said no, only Greg Seward and Barry Karensa said yes. I was just about to ask you if you played the after years. I never have played the after years. No, I tried to play the after years when they were released on the Wii. Yep. I think the first release, I think it was Wii and then mobile. I want to say that we just confirmed that for a second. Yeah, it was on mobile Wii and then a release for everything. Was originally released in 2008 in Japan for mobile phones and then released worldwide as a port for WiiWare. Yeah, so it was worldwide on the Wii. So I did get them on the Wii and I tried to play it, but it was the difficulty was so high. Was it? That I just I finally had to give up on it. I wasn't enjoying it at that point. Yeah, it was just the difficulty was cranked through the roof, which it was too bad because I really wanted to experience. the story, you know, in the after years you're playing as the children of a lot of the characters, I think. Right. And so, you know, I was interested in that and it was great to sort of revisit that universe so long after the original game came out. But yeah, boy, I just couldn't I couldn't do it. It's so funny. It's so interesting. I know a lot of people just weren't a fan of the way it was released. And again, it was one of those where I knew about it, but I don't think I was in. Final Fantasy 4 mode. And again, I hadn't played the game at the time, so it was really no point for me at all. But yeah, I was just curious if you had played that because people have very mixed reactions. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all. Well, it's Final Fantasy. Of course, there's mixed reactions. There's very few consistent reactions. I get some thoughts about Final Fantasy series. sacrifice and everybody well for the greater goal they had to do the disney ending i think afterwards because of the after years i don't know if you played the after years or not i didn't play the after years so so did not play after years since i'm assuming you're not gonna have a chapter on it and it'll just be part of four the after years it was a mobile game and it was it was episodic and i played the we wear version because that was the first version released here The PSP version has a middle chapter in between the two games that I never played that was exclusive to that version. But the after years had some really interesting moments. You know, obviously, Searador, I think his name is, you know, Cecil's son with Rosa as the main character. But what's interesting is they kind of bring some things full circle. Like you find Kane, and at this point Kane... is he's kind of disconnected from the world because of all his past trauma and everything that he did. And he feels like the guilt from everything he did in Final Fantasy four. And he's like a hermit on a mountain, if I remember correctly. And he looks over a sea door and eventually you wind up back in the same place that Cecil was and Kane has his own moment and becomes a holy Dragoon to repents for all that he did in Final Fantasy four proper. And now he's a dragoon with like healing spells and stuff. And I'm like, that's so cool. That's really cool. People are critical of the, of the after years. People don't love them. Is it because it's mobile? Is that the well it's so because it's episodic sounds really cool. No, it is. Yeah, that sounds really, it sounds awesome. It's episodic. So you're, you know, we are playing with certain character for chapter one and then chapter two, your different characters. And by the end everyone comes together. But the problem is whenever you have a game like that is. It's not balanced well. So by the time you're in the final chapter with everybody, the enemies just wipe the floor with you because you have everybody, but not everybody is up to the right level. And it's just like the difficulty spike. And like I never beat after years because of that. I got to the final thing. Yeah. And the enemies just keep wiping the floor with me. And I'm like, this isn't fun anymore. Like, come on. Like this is too high of a difficulty spike. At least give me and you can't go back. It's not like, well, let me go back to an earlier chapter. you're, you're locked. You save your data and you move on and that's it. So the only area to grind is the area kicking my ass. So I'm like, but the story it was telling was very, very good. And I'm glad they did that with the PSP release, but it's also sad that like with pixel remaster, they haven't done that with after years. Like, come on, like it's there. It exists. You're supposed to celebrate, celebrate it. Yeah. That's fair. I think that's a very interesting point. It's not ever come up again outside of that mobile space and mobile. We wear and like I said, PSP. That's it. PSP is the only physical version of that that exists and we wear is now dead so you can't even download the original we wear version of it. So PSP copy is the only way to legally play that right now. In closing out the episode, let's throw everything into a giant goulash and hope for the best. Julian starts us out talking about his first time beating the game, followed by Major Rage, Mike's favorite bit of translated dialogue. And then Greg returns to talk about how perception is everything. Any other final memories about forward that you want to share or any other thoughts before we move on to maybe five? And who knows? I mean, I have time. We can maybe even hit six if we want to just completely just go over time. But. Any other thoughts? This might just be a fun anecdote. I did not finish Final Fantasy four for years because I never owned it as like once I got my Super Nintendo, which was. Ninety four, probably relatively late in the cycle. Final Fantasy four had kind of come and gone, right? Like I didn't at the time, I didn't know. of like used video game stores and it wasn't something that you could buy new anymore. And also we, we weren't really like the type of family that could afford new games very often. So I rented it. Absolutely. But I still couldn't finish it. And it wasn't until many years later when I was working at game fellas and a used copy came in and I snatched it up and I finally finished it. I would have probably been like 19 at that point. And I finally saw the ending of Final Fantasy four. And it's still like it still got me like like it still made me cry. It still makes me cry to this day. But like the fact that like it took that long to actually finally finish that game for me is it's kind of silly when I think about it now, because again, not a very long game. But I think part of it was just I always liked to start from the beginning. And then, you know, I guess. I was also just not, it always felt way bigger of a game back then than it really is. And yeah, it was a long time coming to see that conclusion. And I think there's something very poignant and sweet about that because it does sound like you were able to complete something that you never had the opportunity to do because again, you didn't have, you were renting it, right? You were renting it regularly with your family and your friends and... Yeah, so there is something very poignant about that saying I finally finished a thing that I love and it sounds like that your love for it was well founded in that it lived up to expectations because you had an you had because again, this is a revered game for you. Now you have to finish it. There is a chance it lets you down and it sounds like he most certainly did not. And that's cool that you were able to have a really cool cathartic moment of completion. Like, yes, I've gotten it. This is now. done and I can move on. That's pretty cool, man. But yeah, I just, I was really taken aback about how much I really liked that game. I just, I thought it was, there's just, there's something, there's something really special about being told a good story. Cause obviously when we're playing video games, you want to experience the story, we want to be the story and that's great. But there is the storytelling in for through the play is absolutely masterful. And I, it's unlike, most games in the series that had come that sense, you know, even six, I can't say blends it as seamlessly as four does. I definitely, it's funny because on every element, I like six better and I can freely admit that six is the better video game. I personally think that it is the ultimate like vision of final fantasy, but I just can't. step away from like just my intrinsic love of Final Fantasy four. And again, it's so much of that is just rooted in such early memories and it also having one of my favorite soundtracks and those like, you know, obviously the music in the first in the in the games before that do a good job of propelling the story. But there it's it. It becomes such a much bigger part of the process in four, right? Like the needle drops. There's certain points where it's all, you could tell that they were like, this has to happen after a moment, right? Like there has to be a pause before this piece of music plays to really hammer home what's happening right now. And they do that so often to such a masterful degree. And it just gets better from there. But four was the first time that I saw it. And that's what makes it so special to me. some of the most iconic and quotable moments in Final Fantasy. I mean, I think everybody who's at least halfway familiar with the franchise has at least once heard or read, you spoonie bard. Yeah, it's such a classic, such a classic line, absolutely. And people were a little upset when they removed that from the remasters. Did they remove that from the remasters? There's other ones they have. I don't remember. Actually, now I don't remember. It was, I think. It was previous versions, but I'm pretty sure they reinserted Spoonie Bard into the PR. And there was a reference in 16. That is it. Yes, I heard about the... I've not played 16 yet. I'm still... I got a ways to go before I get there, so I have some time. But yes, it is in the remasters, but it's not in other versions because they fixed that translation, which everyone loves that. That's... You Spoonie Bard. Come on. It's awesome. It's all I can... It's one of the best Woolsey -isms, and he just brought such charm and magic to the translation. Just working miracles, working extreme deadlines to translate so much text. And these are complicated scripts for the time. For the constraints of the memory and therefore the number of characters. For them to convey the kind of like, at this, like, by this point, very effective emotional storytelling that they, you know, perfected in the previous two entries. This one just really brought it to a head. back on Final Fantasy 4 now as an adult and you think back on that time you played it as a kid, obviously it brings back some great memories for you. What do you think, how do you think your perception of the game has changed over the years? Because obviously when you played as a young person, it's a totally different experience than when you played as an adult. Do things jump out at you more now that you're playing it again for the first, again, you know, on the pixel remasters? Or is it more of just like this nostalgic thing where it's like, wow, yeah, I remember what it was like when I was playing in my friend's house. Right. I think. Out of context. It's more of a nostalgia thing. Playing it now, and that's one of the things that I love about the Pixel remasters is that you can sort of get a very sort of compact version of the experience if you want to turn on the different options that they give you, which is fantastic. I love that. Yeah. That's one of the best part of those those those releases, but like I mentioned earlier Experiencing Final Fantasy 2 and Final Fantasy 3 years later And then going back and playing Final Fantasy 4 again you can see the echoes of 1 2 & 3 in 4 way more clearly than you could if you were in North America and playing these games as they were released here, you know, I Final Fantasy IV, sure, it felt like a sequel to Final Fantasy I insofar as any Final Fantasy feels like a sequel to the previous game. Because they're so famously, one has nothing to do with the other, for the most part. But going back and looking at it years later, especially from a critical standpoint, having done sort of the game journalism thing and having been a game. developer and a game designer for a while as well, and really being able to break down the elements of those previous games and really see where they informed what was done in Final Fantasy IV. Yeah, just playing Final Fantasy IV by itself nowadays doesn't really stir anything different. I don't perceive it any differently than I would have, except for the fact that I have the experience of playing those other two games that were previously missing in the camera. you And finally, Mike from Distorted Illuminations talks about a particularly tricky encounter. Trevor and Jeff from New Dad Gaming joins the fun to kind of sort of talk about the game. Mikkel closes us out with some final thoughts. So what other memories of Final Fantasy do you have? So you obviously played four. We talked about six a lot for your show and we were comparing to Chrono Trigger. I'd love to have some of that conversation as well for this. Here's some of your experience with Six. But anything else on Four before we move on to Six? My biggest nightmare in Four was the Evil Wall. That fight ruined me so many times. no. The Evil Wall. Why am I getting flashbacks from that? See, even Final Fantasy Four, that's one of those games. Early RPGs, it's just kind of this rule of thumb. Status effects don't work on bosses, but 4 is not entirely true with that because slow worked on the evil wall, but I didn't know I'd already gotten in that mindset from just that game Don't waste your time with status effects. They're not gonna do anything It's like you could have just cast slow on him this whole time Yep, yeah, because the biggest problem with it's the wall advances So for those who maybe not have experienced or forgot about it the the wall remind me, you know, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I The wall slowly creeps towards you. And once it gets to a certain level, it does like a kills all or attack or instant death or something. Every attack it does once it gets right up to you is a one shot. see, that's the thing. There's no defense against it. Mind you, you got a couple rounds at that point to not get hit. But yeah. Yes. The moment I realized slow didn't work or when I realized slow worked, I'm like, I hate you. Really? Really? Yeah, because you're right. We've been. taught as Final Fantasy players forever, don't bother with status stuff for bosses, and here's the one boss where you can. Seems a little cheap, but yeah. Well, that's the thing you find out though, every boss in that game, there's some weird trick to fight it. Yes, which is really cool, and really interesting and varied. You're right, there are its little gotchas that you can use to get an advantage. terrifying. It's and it's a scary looking thing too. It's a skeleton sticking out of a wall. Creepy looking wall. It's not a great. It's not a great wall. Don't have that wall. Just don't make that wall. That wall is not necessary. Anyway, but yeah, that's that is interesting to play him though as an adult and that's why I like hearing how people play them as as kids because The experience has to be different because me as an adult playing it I'm connecting to that story of change and like the themes and I can see as a kid me like like my kick -ass dark knight is now a wimpy paladin and he stinks and he's Cecil stinks now. Why does he have a cape? And you can't equip any of those weapons. All your weapons are gone. So you have to like... And if you don't think to just buy extra weapons before he turns into a paladin, he's literally useless. Luckily you're with two people who are pretty decent. You're with three, Palimhorm and Tela. Or Tera, forget Tela. Tela. And so luckily they're good enough to get you through, but it ain't fun, man. Jeff, do you have any other memories of Final Fantasy IV before we move on to Final Fantasy VI? Because I love this whole thing of just tip -taling our way through the story of Final Fantasy IV. Yeah, again, it's one of those things where you start out with this world map and you're just blown away going around it, right? And then you're like, no, now you're underground, you're underground this thing and there's this other kind of world down there. And then now, now we're going to the moon. You can go on the moon and you're like, well, where are we going next? I have no idea but like I'm ready for it. Let's go fight the moon god or whatever we're doing But I remember Figuring out there was like something. I don't know if it was that one or six again now I'm getting crossed but it was With the ganji gloves I think you could duplicate like an Excalibur weapon or something and I remember when I figured that out The game was just cake. It was just like I was just slicing through everything. I didn't even matter. So at the end of it, if we feel that the games are supposed to like slowly build your character that paladin by the end of it, I was just like, yeah, nothing could touch me. Let's finish this game. Let's go. Awesome. But it was one of those things where it would just suck me in. And that was I was in that game for a long, long time. And I couldn't pin the amount of hours on it because like, again, childhood brain, I don't know if it was 80 hours or eight hours and I just sprinted through. But I'm pretty sure it was like 80 like and above. My parents are asking me, like, where are you for dinner? And I can't pause and I have to leave it there, right? Or I can't save, but I can pause. But the whole thing's running all the time. And that was one of those games that would heat up the SNES. So that would be on all the time. And Final Fantasy IV, Final Again II in North America, that was a launch title for the SNES. It was Launch Window. It actually might have been proper launch, like, first four games for the SNES, but it was definitely Launch Window. It was definitely for Christmas. Wow. Early, early SNES. That's why when you play Final Fantasy six, which of course is three in North America, that's why it's such a gigantic leap, because that was four years later. And again, mind warp. Yeah, no way. Yeah. Okay, so Final thoughts on it if And I know there are two different types of Final Fantasy 4 -3 technically if you can count Final Fantasy 14 only fans because They exist There's the two types of fans if we ignore Final Fantasy 14 only fans. There are those who jumped in who like the modern style, which is more action oriented And those who prefer the classic style. And sometimes it's crossover where people can appreciate all of them. Like you and I, we can appreciate each one because you know, there is no real set formula for what a Final Fantasy is because each title evolves upon something. But if you are in the camp of you've started with a newer one and as much as Square Enix keeps saying, start Final Fantasy with seven rebirth. No. Start it with a remake. No. play some of the classics because, and I'm not trying to be, you know, an elitist or a gatekeeper, but it's always great. And I see this not only about fallon fantasy, but gaming as a whole, the same thing I say for music and for movies and just art literature and everything. It helps to understand where things came from or started to where they are now, because you can appreciate it. a lot more. So that. Yeah, man. Absolutely. I totally agree with that. I think I think four is a great entry point for someone who wants to experience the old 16 bit style. I would take honestly for over over six, even though I do like six more. Six is a very important game to me. Like that's a formative moment thing for me. But four is so streamlined and it's not terribly hard. Yeah. It's it kind of it just goes it's it's relatively linear. It feels big, but it's relatively linear and that's it's curated. It's really cool curated vibe and it just moves. It's 20 hours max now unless you're real take your lot of time. I always say when people ask the question, hey, what's the first Final Fantasy you should play? If you want like the very first one, I always say 10 because I think 10 is the most accessible approachable of all of them and it gives you the best flavor. I don't think it's the best, but I think it's most approachable. Yeah. Before it'd be right after that if you want to appreciate the older style. But you know what's also ridiculously good? Even more good -er than I would say sick, before is Final Fantasy VI. How's that for a segue? just yet. We have a few weeks before we get to Final Fantasy 6 and what's looking like over a month of content about that one game but there's so much there and there are so many comments and opinions we're just gonna have to go there and we're just gonna have to do it. But until then thank you so much for listening to this edition of A Gamer Looks at 40. If you enjoyed the show tell a friend! That's the best way to spread the word about the podcast, especially if they're a Final Fantasy nut. This is where they ought to be listening for the next four months, probably at least. So be sure to do that. And a like and a rating on your pop player of choice is also appreciated as well. And go to a gamer looks at 40 .com for all of my everything, including links to my social media. full playlist of the series including Legend of Zelda Earthbound and Tales from the Bargain Bin among others. Many thanks to Pete and Kev from Discord for editing the interviews, many thanks to you for listening and until next time just be kind to yourselves and each other.