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When A Killer Realizes His Victim Tricked Him: The Case of Christopher Gribble & Steven Spader
When a killer realizes his victim TRICKED him...
The following podcast episode is not legal advice. Do not rely on the information in this presentation without speaking to a licensed attorney.
No one discussed in these videos has been formally diagnosed by EWU and our psychological analysis is based on the general behaviors and traits of the people discussed.
When a killer realizes his victim TRICKED him...
The following podcast episode is not legal advice. Do not rely on the information in this presentation without speaking to a licensed attorney.
No one discussed in these videos has been formally diagnosed by EWU and our psychological analysis is based on the general behaviors and traits of the people discussed.
I'll be perfectly honest. I wanted to kill someone for a long time. It's like an urge and it was kind of a time that I could get it out. You are that sick, fuck. He was pretty much excited. It definitely wasn't his first time. It was like, yeah, it's awesome. You'll get used to the crest and get addicted but we'll take care of it.
Speaker 2:When an inconceivably brutal crime rocks the small town of Montvernan, new Hampshire, police and residents alike are desperate to stop the monsters before they can strike again. But as the haunting case begins to unravel, they soon realize that no one could have prevented the truly evil acts that were about to be set in motion. As it would turn out, a group known as the Disciples of Destruction would stop at nothing to make their twisted dreams of violence, horror and gore a sick reality. And yet not everything went according to their plan. The killers soon learned that one of their victims was actually still alive.
Speaker 1:I'm one of those type of gentlemanly, chevrolet sort of guys that you don't even hit girls, let alone go out and treat them badly. If the girls in the hospital, obviously she probably got injured or something.
Speaker 3:Well, chris, it's funny. You should mention that because I want to let him know she is going to survive, fortunately.
Speaker 2:That's good, yeah, that is real good Home to around 2,000 people. Montvernan is most notable for its quaint and quiet reputation, with little to no crime. It was never expected that the tranquil town would be the setting of one of the most shocking murder cases that the nation has ever seen. Among the community lived the Kate's family, including 42 year old Kimberly, her husband David and their daughter, 11 year old Jamie. They resided among a beautiful neighborhood located on Trove Road, where the growing forestry made for a peaceful stretch of land. Kimberly was a pediatric nurse and David was an engineer, but the most fulfilling job that the two shared was being parents to the bright and outgoing Jamie. They were a happy family, but sadly they could not have foreseen the horrors that were in their near future.
Speaker 2:It wasn't uncommon for David to travel on occasional business trips, leaving Kimberly and Jamie at home, but he'd installed an alarm system inside of the house that would contact the local authorities in the unlikely event of an emergency and to further their peace of mind. Kimberly had also made an agreement with one of their neighbors, promising to keep an eye on each other's property. Although, due to the town's low crime rate, the idea that residents of Trove Road could be targeted victims of crime was never considered. Before David Leffer's trip on Saturday, october 3rd 2009, the house's alarm system had unexpectedly malfunctioned, rendering it inoperable. Despite this, the family remained unconcerned, but as David walked out that door for yet another work trip, he couldn't have ever imagined that the world he knew was about to be tragically ripped away from him. It was another typical weekend for the mother-daughter duo, where they made plans to shop at their local mall the next day and possibly stop by Jamie's Karate studio. At least that's what Kimberly had messaged to David before she and Jamie went to bed around 8.30. Jamie would often sleep in her parents' bedroom while David was gone, and this weekend was no different. From the hotel in Maryland, David messaged his family a good night.
Speaker 2:Around four in the morning on October 4th 2009, a chilling 911 call was made to a local dispatcher. The voice was that of a little girl, soft and quiet and very hard to hear, but what the dispatcher could make out was the whimpering cries of a terrified child begging for help. Unable to gain a clear understanding of what the little girl had been saying, a police officer was immediately sent to the address of 4 Tro Road. Upon arrival, the officer briefly searched the exterior of the home. While waiting for the other squadrons to show. Before he was able to make a full circle of the property, he noticed a slight movement out of the corner of his eye, coming from inside of the house. Inching closer to the home, he peered through a kitchen window where he located a vague image. Someone appeared to be hiding behind the counter, locking eyes with the petrified little girl.
Speaker 2:The officer was overcome with a wave of horror at what was before him. The girl was lying on the floor, her entire body coated in blood and a portion of her foot had been severed. Someone had maimed the vulnerable child. Breaking down the front door, the officer finally gained entry inside, where he found the little girl, shaking and paralyzed by fear. Horrifyingly, she was attempting to scream and yell, however, nothing was coming out. When she could finally speak, she quickly gave her name Jamie. The officer immediately carried Jamie outside, where he asked if any other people were in the house. She responded by saying that only her mother was in the bedroom. However, in a heartbreaking plea, she begged him not to leave her side. The officer comforted the young girl, stating that he needed to search the residence for anyone who may be heard, and promised that she was safe.
Speaker 2:Just outside, another officer made their way to the petrified Jamie, where they could see that not only had her foot been severed, but she had suffered multiple lacerations to her head, legs, arms and torso. When asked how she received the injuries, she responded by saying some guy had a knife and another one had a bat and he hit my mom. Horrified, the officer asked if Jamie had any idea of who the perpetrators were, and although she couldn't identify any of her attackers, she recalled that one had been bald. However, she also told the authorities. One of them said get the jewelry. She then told the police that she survived by pretending that she was dead.
Speaker 2:Soon additional help had arrived, and it was then that they discovered all of the appalling contents waiting within the home. Authorities were able to follow the bloodstained footprints across the hallway carpet that led all the way back to the master bedroom. What they found upon entry could only be described as a chamber of horror. Not a single member of law enforcement could fathom the massive amounts of blood that had encompassed almost every inch of the room. And then they found something even more disturbing. The officers could barely stomach the absolute atrocity that was before them Lying on the blood-soaked bed was Jamie's mother, kimberly, who had been savagely murdered. Severely wounded, jamie was immediately rushed to the hospital, but there was no telling whether she would survive.
Speaker 2:Following the sickening discovery, the authorities were left with a mountain of questions. Most importantly, they needed to uncover who had unleashed such an evil attack upon a mother and her child. In an attempt to establish the motive, they began to search the house, and they discovered that various items of jewelry had been taken. In addition, they found that the basement window had been broken into, with the screen laying neatly on the ground. Along with this, the air conditioning unit that had been placed in a window above the deck was missing. Yet another potential entry point to the home. South of the residence, tire tracks could be seen along the dirt pathway and foot imprints were located within the front yard.
Speaker 2:As word of the brutal attack spread, the tight-knit community was plagued with fear. But what became even more frightening was the haunting whispers making their way to Montvernin from the nearby town of Brookline, only 20 minutes away. Apparently, a resident had been visiting a friend's house on Sunday October 4th and was introduced to a pair of young men, also from Brookline. Initially, the gathering seemed to be a harmless occasion, but that would quickly take a dark and unexpected turn. Within a short amount of time, the new friends had divulged a sick and twisted secret. They claimed that they had just killed a mother and her child, while another set of friends watched. The other patrons sat in disbelief as they listened to what they thought had been a scare tactic from the two or a cruel joke. But, as you'll come to find out, the truth behind this harrowing case would only emerge after a series of horrific findings. It's possible that the high of committing the crime had worn off, so the assailants were attempting to relive the attack and experience that rush again by describing it to friends. They likely enjoyed the attention and shock from the others and were potentially confident that there was no evidence linking them to the crime, suggesting that they may have believed that they were smarter than police. However, they weren't smart enough, as authorities caught wind of the chilling rumors and were in a mad dash to track down the mysterious young men. They would turn out to be 19-year-old Christopher Gribble and 17-year-old Steven Spader. One day after the horrific crime, they were each brought in for questioning.
Speaker 2:It was rather odd that Christopher, of all people, had been asked to talk with the police. Considering his background, a long-time Eagle Scout, christopher was a proud member of the Mormon Church and was working towards his goal of becoming a missionary. He'd been homeschooled from an early age, where his parents worked tirelessly to instill the proper values. This had also coincided with Christopher's time in the Boy Scouts, where he'd given back to his community, supposedly building a shed for the Brookline Transfer Station, a drop-off site for waste and recyclables. Although things weren't always as picture-perfect as they seemed, it was no secret that Christopher had struggled with the social portion of his life, where making friends became an almost impossible task. The few that he did have recall his awkward demeanor and tendency to ramble during conversation. On top of this, social cues were somewhat of a foreign concept to the Eagle Scout, making for a rather difficult childhood.
Speaker 2:American beings have a fundamental need to connect with other people. When someone is unable to or has great difficulty forming even platonic relationships, this can be a red flag for a personality disorder. Nonetheless, he carried on with his aspirations of one day becoming a Marine and enrolled in the US Army Cadet Corps Group in Nashua, new Hampshire. There he won the Academic and Good Conduct Honors Award. Unfortunately, the excellent student would find himself failing out of the training course in 2008.
Speaker 2:It was around this time that Christopher's friends and family noticed an odd shift in his behavior, and you'll soon find out exactly why that is. The date is October 5, 2009,. Only one day after Kimberly's body has been found. The detective reads Christopher his Miranda rights before jumping right into the much-anticipated interrogation. The following never-before-heard interviews have been analyzed by a qualified team including a licensed attorney, a licensed clinical psychologist, a former licensed professional counselor and a licensed professional counselor. The pair of friends had supposedly visited a couple of local yard sales, but were unable to find anything worth purchasing. During the unsuccessful shopping spree, christopher drove Stephen back home, but this wouldn't be the last that they see of each other on this day.
Speaker 3:The.
Speaker 2:When the detective questions Christopher about whether that's actually what they did, Christopher avoids answering the question directly, which is a red flag for possible deception. He may be trying to buy some time to think about what he should say. In addition, he mentions two new people, 17-year-old Quinn Glover and 18-year-old William Marks, also known as Billy, who'd been part of a friend group with Christopher and Stephen, although Billy and Christopher had only just met a week prior.
Speaker 3:You and Steve went to Walnut and then Billy met up and he had some questions. I think we did.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure it was this Saturday when we did. Christopher uses a selective memory statement of I think, and then a qualifier of pretty sure, which are additional red flags for possible deception. The event he's describing was only two days ago, so it's something he should remember and be certain about. He may realize that if he wants to play it off as though he has a bad memory, then he needs his memory to be poor on days that don't involve crime and murder. However, the detective will likely be able to confirm or deny Christopher's recount of events based on possible surveillance footage or eyewitness statements which Christopher may be realizing now.
Speaker 3:This is sometime around midnight that you meet Billy. Yeah, how long were you guys there beforehand?
Speaker 1:Well, we didn't stay completely in Walmart. To be honest, I didn't really put it to memory much.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember we were hanging out, but I don't remember doing much or anything.
Speaker 2:Someone who's being deceptive is more likely to give evasive answers. They want to leave open the possibility to change their story if needed, such as if a detective presents evidence that they were actually somewhere different than they said. If a suspect gives a definite alibi with no room for alterations, then it'll be much more difficult to adjust the story later on. In addition, christopher may feel like he needs to be cautious about what he says in case one of his friends gives a different account. Next, he states that they made their way to another friend's house, 19-year-old Autumn Savoy. At Autumn's, christopher recalls that they watched the popular show Dexter and he begins to describe his fascination with the series.
Speaker 1:The basic principle, I think, is he's addicted to blood and stuff. He really likes blood because he kills people too because of that which probably sounds really bad in a homicide investigation, saying they're watching now but, being honest, we find it really entertaining because he works as a blood expert for the police department. He goes out when he finds people that they either can't give evidence on or somebody who's done something really incredibly evil generally murders and he goes out and kills them in a strict holistic fashion, but it doesn't really show them killing them or anything.
Speaker 2:What comes off as somewhat creepy is Christopher's interest in the character and the fact that he's going into such detail about the show.
Speaker 2:It seems that he doesn't think this will make him look at all suspicious, even continuing to state that they watched several hours of the show before he and Stephen slept in his car, which the detectives find to be rather odd. The pair had supposedly left Autumn's place around 7 or 8 in the morning, before Christopher drove Stephen back to his house. They met again later that afternoon at 1.30 and visited more local yard sales. It turns out that they were in desperate need of money and, just as their luck would have it, christopher stated that they were able to purchase a decent amount of jewelry for only $20 from one sale in particular. Now we will find out exactly what they did with the newfound merchandise while getting to meet our additional suspect, stephen. The detective asks similar questions to that of Christopher's interrogation, where Stephen gives the same story I just went downstairs and discovered that someone at the mall you and somebody else went down there and pawned some jewelry.
Speaker 5:is that right? I didn't, my friend did.
Speaker 3:Chris did, chris did, you were with Chris, so you guys went there. Somebody recognized that you was being there. Okay, I was there. Okay.
Speaker 6:We went down to the pawns and stuff like the jewelry store.
Speaker 3:I don't know why that's illegal? No, no, we're trying to create a timeline of where you were.
Speaker 6:We can talk to you.
Speaker 3:You know it was at 1.00, 2.00 in the morning. You said you were at Walmart on 11A and Amherst. We're going to go back, we're going to check that. Okay. He says he was here. He was there, Okay.
Speaker 2:When a suspect acts defensive, such as Stephen is doing here, this can be a red flag for deception. But his age may be a factor in his behavior. The logical part of the brain known as the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed until around the age of 25, and even a few years later for men, which can partially explain why teenagers and children tend to act based on their emotions rather than thinking things through. It's also possible that Stephen sees the interview as a big inconvenience for him. Well, what did Chris talk? He said he had some gold necklace.
Speaker 4:He's not going to really look at it. He told me it was worth money. I mean money for weed. But he's going to be honest with you Okay.
Speaker 3:So how many necklaces do you remember? 40, 50, 50, 52, 53, and $30 worth of gold.
Speaker 2:Christopher and Stephen had only recently become friends again, after previously meeting during their time in the Boy Scouts. Years later they would somehow reconnect, bonding over the same interests, and Stephen, just like his friend, had grown up with issues of his own. As Stephen's mother was allegedly struggling with addiction during her pregnancy, stephen tested positive for illegal substances upon his birth, but would go on to beat the odds and was adopted by a loving family at only five days old. During his childhood years, stephen was a picture of happiness, outgoing and personable. Given every opportunity in life, he participated in various sports and joined both the Boy Scouts and a theater group, all of which gave him the chance to make friends. But once he approached his teenage years, it was like a switch had got off In an instant. The once lovable boy turned cold and became uncontrollable. This would later be confirmed through one of his close friends, autumn, who had much to say about the troubled young man.
Speaker 7:I just knew Steve was getting worse from talking to him and then at some point he went away, I don't know exactly where. When he came back, he was not the same person. He wasn't that emo kid who had issues at home. He was this kid who wanted to be a gangster, a big drug dealer. It was odd because somehow he always managed to have money for drugs. She would sneak out at night, she'd quote unquote borrow his parents' cars. We'd hang out a lot. He was someone I could talk to, understabled, someone else who understood.
Speaker 2:His mood swings could happen in the blink of an eye, leaving his friends and family to walk on eggshells. But even worse, steven was developing violent tendencies. His mother, christine Spader, noted that at one point Steven had punched a wall out of sheer frustration. During a most memorable incident, steven and his father were having a heated argument and the teenager, engulfed in rage, allegedly pulled out a knife. He started to associate with kids from different high schools, where he apparently joined a gang known as the Crips, although his father, also named Steven, believed this to be nothing but teenage nonsense. In addition, he would take recreational and prescription drugs in order to help with his supposed anxiety.
Speaker 2:Steven's parents grew increasingly worried about their rebellious teen and finally took him to see a psychiatrist in 2006.
Speaker 2:Steven's behavior indicates that he was showing signs of having conduct disorder.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, when behavioral problems are sudden and severe, like in Steven's case, it occurs due to some sort of trauma or major stressor in the young person's life. And because Steven was heading down such a dangerous path, his parents reportedly spent thousands of dollars in an attempt to help their son. However, he was eventually diagnosed with bipolar disorder and a major depression. They would apparently go so far as to enroll him in an addiction treatment center, but were devastated to learn that he required a higher level of treatment than the facility could offer him. Stephen was then taken to a residential treatment center, but left within a month yet another failed resource. He even spent a few short days in psychiatric hospitals in 2008, and supposedly ran away with his girlfriend later that year, but was found in New York and returned home within days. It seemed that there was nothing left to try, but the devoted parents would never give up on their child, although not a single thing could have prevented the heinous acts of the monster that was about to be unleashed.
Speaker 3:Back to the early Sunday morning. There was no way that he could have been in Mount Vernon with his mother. There was not that risk. Really no. No, no, all right, I've got some more information on what was downstairs. Billy is basically giving it up.
Speaker 2:This may be an example of the prisoner's dilemma in which Stephen now faces the decision of whether to confess or to stick with his story. If Billy says nothing and Stephen says nothing, it's possible that there is not enough evidence to tie them to the crime and they'll face no punishment. However, if Billy has talked and implicated Stephen, it's possible that Stephen could face a harsher punishment if he doesn't give his side of the story. But if Stephen confesses his role and Billy has admitted his part as well, they will likely both be punished. The prisoner's dilemma is such an effective tactic because Stephen is separated from the others. He doesn't know what they're saying or if they've cracked under the pressure. If he knew for sure the others weren't talking, he would feel more confident in keeping his original story. But the seeds of doubt are likely gnawing at him now, leaving him panicking about what to do. I'd like to be let out or I'd like to hear from the Lord.
Speaker 3:And now you guys are going to start accusing me of doing something. Well, I mean, I kind of accused you all along. I'm trying to tell you what I know and what I found out, and if you wanted a attorney, all you have to say is I wanted an attorney. Is that what you're telling me?
Speaker 4:Well, this is all voluntarily. I don't know why I can't get that out right now. I want to leave. I would like to leave right now. I'm told that you're not leaving?
Speaker 3:Why? Because there's enough I believe there's enough information. Place you at the scene of the crime and that you're someone that's caused this to happen. Huh, Okay, Are you asking for an attorney? You're asking to leave, or are you?
Speaker 4:I'm asking to leave because I think this is bullshit. I came down here voluntarily yes, to voluntarily talk to you guys, and now you guys are telling me that I can't leave. I'm not even doing anything. I want to be let out, okay, and I want to smoke a cigarette, okay, frustrated.
Speaker 2:The detectives must end the interrogation. It's possible that Stephen refuses to believe his friend has betrayed him, but, as we will later hear from Billy, he was ready to come clean In the meantime.
Speaker 3:There are still a few things that Christopher's interrogators would like to cover, and right now I'm going to tell you that there are some other stories that are being told. You better think, while you're in hiding right now, about what happened this weekend. Okay, okay, let's go back to Saturday night, all right. What happened after you left your girlfriend's party that you went to? I was pretty sure I called them, but Okay.
Speaker 2:I mean, if I want to see. The confrontation phase of the interrogation is now underway, but Christopher maintains his original story, although the detectives aren't buying it. What do you know about what happened up?
Speaker 1:there in Montverdon. All I know is like this morning, like really early this morning, we were looking on the internet, on the telegraph, to see what was going on and there was something about there was a lady killed in Montverdon and there's a young girl that's in stable condition in the hospital. I don't know if it was me or one of Steve's friends or something. Somebody texted one of us or emailed us. Let's just remember that we heard that the girl was conceivably in the same class as one of our friends' sisters or something, and so I guess she's about 10 years old, which honestly I hope she's just going to be okay, because that's horrible to do something to a little girl.
Speaker 2:It's common in the read technique for investigators to ask what the suspect thinks the purpose of the interview is. Individuals who are being honest are more likely to use realistic words to describe the crime, while deceptive individuals may answer vaguely or use soft words like hurt or attack instead of murder. Investigator's use of the word killed here is in line with what a truthful subject might say. However, his reference to the girl in the hospital is vague. This may be an example of how most people who are being deceptive won't answer every question in a deceptive way. People will generally provide a mix of deceptive and truthful behaviors, but there will be more deceptive indicators when someone is lying and more truthful indicators when someone's being honest. This is why it's important for detectives to interpret body language and verbal responses in conjunction with the actual physical evidence. Although Christopher has not been formally diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, it's always interesting when people such as psychopaths use language like this, because it shows their awareness of what empathy or lack of is, but also their ability to be manipulative.
Speaker 1:I'm assuming that somebody specifically tried to kill them. That rubs against my conscience. Personally, I'm one of those type of gentlemanly, chevrolet-soated guys that you don't even hit girls, let alone go out, and treat them badly.
Speaker 2:Christopher's statement here may be what is known as a convincing statement. Individuals who are telling the truth don't usually feel the need to prop up their story with convincing statements about what a great person they are, because they know the facts are on their side. On the other hand, individuals who are being deceptive may use these sorts of statements to bolster their image and persuade detectives to believe them.
Speaker 1:The girl in the hospital. Obviously she probably got injured or something.
Speaker 3:Well, Chris, it's funny. You should mention that because I want to let you know she is going to survive, fortunately. That's good, it's real good, because she deserves to be alive. It's a lot of idiom, but you know what else is good? It's good because she can ID the two people that are in the house.
Speaker 1:That would be awesome. I hope you guys can do that.
Speaker 2:Christopher's voice is slightly shakier and he overall sounds less sure of himself here as the detectives attempt to break his confidence. Which, although Christopher states his relief that Jamie is expected to survive, he's likely panicking at the thought that she may be able to identify him.
Speaker 3:Let's say it was a robbery going on. One man's up dead and a little girl ends up seriously injured. People involved in it they're actually nasty people. What do you think should happen to those people?
Speaker 1:Well, they should probably get sent to jail for the rest of the time.
Speaker 2:I honestly don't know what's the difference between jail and prison? Although Christopher's response sounds okay at first glance, it's a red flag that he qualified his answer with the word. Probably Most truthful individuals would provide a firm response in a situation like this. If the officers had doubt about his involvement before then, they definitely don't any longer.
Speaker 1:Thing that seems to have led you to me is the car. Why do you think that is? I don't know. Maybe a car like that was just seen in the area and so you're checking out that lead. It's quite possible I wasn't in the area. I could have been driving down that road right when it happened, which kind of scares me, because what if they come out of the house and needed to get away a car and killed me for my car? That kind of makes me nervous. I probably won't drive around here too much anymore.
Speaker 2:This statement indicates that not only does he know the exact area the police are referring to, but he won't go there again. This may have been a slip-up on his part, as Christopher was likely trying to convince the detectives that not only was he not involved in the crime, but he could have even potentially been the killer's next victim. However, in doing so, he seemingly confirmed that he had been in that area. In addition, asking the suspect to elaborate on their knowledge of the evidence is a common way to get them talking and a possible opening for them to make mistakes.
Speaker 1:Let's say you were on that road that night, assuming I was. That scares me, as if I was, it should, because not only does it make me a suspect, obviously, since you're questioning me, but that really scares me, that somebody who was willing to attack, even if they were just trying to get out of the house, a woman and a little girl. Of course they're going to attack me for my car Like, I've never had my car jacked, but I've been scared of it sometimes.
Speaker 2:Apparently while driving around. On Saturday night, Christopher and Stephen traveled all the way to Montvernon. Christopher states that they eventually parked in a driveway down one of the back roads for a bathroom break, but he doesn't clearly remember where they were. Unsurprisingly, the detectives find this to be more than suspicious, but rather than confront Christopher just yet, they switch gears to a new topic the gang Stephen had recently formed, the Disciples of Destruction. Looking to achieve a sense of brotherhood along with financial prosperity, he recruited none other than Christopher, Billy and Quinn, where the essential values of the group consisted of loyalty and violence, with the only way in being the commission of crime, the recruit would invade a house and dispose of anyone who may be inside. Seeing as Christopher was having trouble at home, he wanted more than anything to be part of something where he could freely express himself.
Speaker 2:Christopher had been accusing his mother of emotional and physical abuse for quite some time, claiming that she would allegedly pin him to the floor and pop acne on his back, spank him and require him to carry a vacuum around the house. The accusations were never confirmed, but his mother did recall a time where she had spanked the child so hard with a wooden spoon that the utensil broke. She would later admit that she regretted losing her control, but has since denied any of the other allegations, and there is no evidence of them being true. Nonetheless, during his early teenage years, Christopher began to have dark and twisted fantasies about his mother and wished that one day he would carry them out. Confessing his evil thoughts to a counselor at Kedek camp, he supposedly stated his thoughts of wanting to cut his mother into pieces and listened to her scream like I screamed. The counselor, horrified at what they'd heard, immediately notified Christopher's parents. They were absolutely shocked at the confession and didn't wait long to bring Christopher in for a psychological evaluation. The psychiatrist concluded that he'd been displaying traits of antisocial personality disorder but was too young to be formally diagnosed.
Speaker 2:Despite the blood-curdling fantasies, the teenager was not considered a threat to society, or at least that's what was decided at the time. If these dark and twisted fantasies were expressed as just Christopher's angry thoughts towards his allegedly abusive mother, it would be difficult to have him committed to a psychiatric facility. In addition, inpatient psychiatric hospitalizations are typically limited to days or weeks, and most it's rare for patients to be committed for months at a time, unless they have a very severe mental illness. So, although Christopher displayed all the signs of likely being a hazard to society, it's difficult for his parents, his counselor or his psychiatrist to do anything to stop him from someday acting on those thoughts. Sadly, in many cases it's only when the person acts that measures are taken to prevent them from harming others, again, Angry and frustrated. It seems to be of excellent timing when he and Stephen had reconnected in 2009. What would you do?
Speaker 3:if Steve put you in a position of pre-hairy predicament, would you stop him or would you follow him and deal with the consequences?
Speaker 1:later, I would definitely stop him, because I don't put up with stuff from anyone to a certain degree. If he's going to smoke cigarettes and he's almost 18, I don't care, we're not talking smoke and cigarettes.
Speaker 3:We're not talking drinking beer, if you're underage.
Speaker 1:I'm just using that.
Speaker 3:I'm talking serious stuff. I don't think you really get the big picture. You are here for a reason.
Speaker 3:You want to know what the other guys are talking about. They're not talking about cigarettes. So you've got to start thinking really hard and pull your head out of your behind and start telling us what happened on Saturday night, because it's not looking very good for you. People are talking about something different than what you are telling us. This was Saturday night. This wasn't three months ago Saturday night. This was Saturday night. It is Monday right now. There should be no question in your mind what you did. You just told us you don't use drugs, you don't drink. You have no reason to have this memory loss.
Speaker 1:I just don't put anything into long-term memory unless it's in.
Speaker 3:Let's take a deep breath and think long and hard about what happened Saturday night.
Speaker 2:This is the prisoner's dilemma at play again, this time with Christopher being on the receiving end of it. He likely believes that his selective memory is a safe bet right now, as it leaves the door open for him to suddenly remember something later and adjust his story. However, what he doesn't seem to realize is that having a memory of extremes like this is highly suspicious. With this in mind, the detectives are hoping to back Christopher into a corner, but the teenager refuses to budge, although this won't last for long.
Speaker 1:Well, I can't tell you anything but what I think I did.
Speaker 3:What you think you did. Don't tell me what you think you did. Tell me what you did. Okay, Be a man and tell me what you did.
Speaker 1:We got McCarney left. I mean we don't do anything on Saturday night, we just drive around the issue comes down to what was your role in what happened Saturday? Night. Do you really think we did that?
Speaker 3:I think you know who did something. I think you know what went on there. I think you have knowledge about what went on there that can help us with our investigation, christopher's question stands out as a possible indication of deception.
Speaker 2:Someone who's being truthful is more likely to adamantly deny any involvement in a firm tone of voice, but Christopher's is weak and his question is clearly lacking any actual denial. The detective is also using an alternative explanation that minimizes the suspect's role in the crime by asserting that Christopher has knowledge of it, but without accusing him of taking part in the act itself.
Speaker 1:You guys really think that we did it, don't you? You didn't tell anyone, you did it.
Speaker 3:No, you didn't tell anyone you did it. Why would you tell someone you didn't do it? If I told you someone is telling us right now that you told them that you cut that little girl's throat. That would be a lie.
Speaker 1:Yes, that would be a lie. I would never hurt a girl, let alone some little girl. That would be horrible.
Speaker 3:Stop telling us, chris, about why you guys went into that house, because right now it isn't a question. If it's a question, why we stopped talking to them.
Speaker 1:We were just driving around. Who Just me and Steve.
Speaker 3:You and Steve and what happened next.
Speaker 1:We drove around, we stopped maybe and took a break to pee, and then we got back in the car and drove around more, steve.
Speaker 3:Here's the thing, chris you feel like you're giving us just enough to explain away what you think we might know or things that we might have, and you're thinking that that's going to be enough, where later on you could say well, I told you that.
Speaker 6:Well, I said that.
Speaker 3:Well, I can explain that. You do not know all that we know. No, I'll change it when I know.
Speaker 2:Rest assured, you do not know all that we know, using the interrogation, one of the detectives has been stepping out of the room to retrieve information from the other interviews that are taking place with Billy Quinn, steven and Autumn. And little does Christopher know. His friends weren't as willing to conceal the truth.
Speaker 3:It's okay to tell the truth. It is okay to say what happened. To tell the truth, Because society is going to draw its own version of this whole thing they already have. You read the paper. You read the telegraph.
Speaker 1:It's just a paragraph on one.
Speaker 3:Okay, if that's all you read, fine, I'll put it in that one paragraph. You can sum up what the reporters attitude about the whole thing is. There's some animal out there Hacking people up, killing people in their own home in the middle of the night. That's an animal, that's a killer. Oh yeah, that's. That's someone that needs to be killed themselves. A guy like you. Come on, you're not cruising yard sales on a weekend. Come on, I do. No, you're not. That jewelry is going to be traced back to that house and we're going to check the records out. Anything else you pawned off, because you even said they take your name, your license number, all that information, how much of that other jewelry and that those other goods that you pawned off, we're going to come back to other burglars. It was just that simple burglaries.
Speaker 1:I've never really seen you. The most I've done is I was like nine years old. I tried to take a thing of Pokemon stickers from a KV toys.
Speaker 3:Stop minimizing. Stop, we're not talking. We're not talking smoking when you're under 18. We're not talking stealing Pokemon stickers.
Speaker 1:We're talking murder. I don't do that.
Speaker 3:You may not, you may not have, but someone in that house did.
Speaker 1:I was never, you were there.
Speaker 2:Investigators again pose the alternate theory that gives the appearance of minimizing the severity of the crime. This is meant, in part, to keep the suspect talking and eventually willing to admit to something and eventually the truth of their role in the crime. Nonetheless, christopher refuses to waver on his original story. Invoking that as an Eagle Scout murder is not a core value.
Speaker 3:Chris, let me ask you this You've been in the National River that mean anything to you?
Speaker 1:I don't know which river the National River is you?
Speaker 3:know Well, eventually River lately, oh, no, no, no, you haven't been by a river lately, unless you keep driving over one there. Stop minimizing, stop dancing around the issue. John has asked you a very specific question have you been to a river lately, yes or no?
Speaker 1:Fine. Yes, I've been to the river. See how we've been there.
Speaker 3:Next to the hatch. When was this Two nights ago. Maybe, yesterday we Well we went and got to the river. What would you go by the river for? I've heard we just throw in the river, chris? What?
Speaker 5:did you throw in the river.
Speaker 3:What was thrown in the river? Chris, I didn't throw anything in the river. What was thrown in the river? I didn't ask if you did what was thrown in the river nothing nothing.
Speaker 1:I didn't throw anything in the river. You're lying, chris. I don't know.
Speaker 3:You're lying, we have evidence.
Speaker 5:You're lying.
Speaker 3:You know what happens to people who slice little girls in prison. You know what happens to them Do you know?
Speaker 1:No, I've never been to prison.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, you know what? You're gonna find out.
Speaker 1:And arrest me.
Speaker 3:My god, what were you thinking? What were you thinking when you were hatching away at her, hacking away at her here in a screen? We've smiled. You were smiling, weren't you? You are that sick. You are that sick animal that went in there with a sole purpose, carrying that shed, because the other guys might have thought it was just a burglary they're just gonna skim a little jewelry, go make a little cash, be done with it. But you went in there with another plan. You went in there to kill, might do that rush, that adrenaline dump. You liked it Till the lights came on reality.
Speaker 2:You saw the damage you had done. The detectives have shifted from placing the blame on Steven to making Christopher the actual ringleader. They've tried playing him as the victim who simply followed along, but since that tactic didn't work, their next option is to evoke anger or guilt in hopes that he will tell the truth. It's possible that the investigators believe that he's the psychopathic mastermind and that calling him out on it would appeal to his nature. Trying to paint him as a follower if he is the leader would, after all, be an insult to him.
Speaker 3:If you've given that opportunity, would you offer an apology to that little girl? But what happened to her mother, would you?
Speaker 2:Done it is. Most people would tell a person that was severely injured they were sorry it happened, regardless of their involvement. It's part of an empathetic response. Christopher's answer lends significant credibility to the idea that he is on the psychopathic end of antisocial personality disorder. Since lack of empathy is a key component of psychopathy, this statement labels him something of a deviant, whether he was guilty of this particular crime or not. Following the heated confrontation, christopher decides that he doesn't want to speak with the detectives any longer, but over an hour later he seems to have changed his mind. Not only this, but now we're able to hear from the much talked about Billy, who has been confessing all along. The detectives begin by reading Billy is rights and quickly dives into his side of the story.
Speaker 6:This is your chance to talk, billy, so I'd like you to just Tell us what you know about the incident. I don't know much. I don't know whatever. It's my teacher's day in school. Okay, billy, the information we have is that you were there.
Speaker 2:The detective informs Billy that he's not the only suspect being interviewed at this very moment.
Speaker 6:So why don't you go ahead and tell us what you know about the incident out in Moe Vernon, what I know, like about which part To? About your involvement in the incident? On this, yes, my woman was, I was just there. Okay, who you dare with, she said, and Chris, and you know Chris's last name, okay, okay, and who else we dare with, I'm not a friend.
Speaker 2:Okay, billy is minimizing his involvement by using the word just. This is likely an attempt to lessen his punishment and possibly any feelings of guilt. Given how quickly he admitted to being there, it's possible that he either felt compelled to clear his guilty conscience or he's a person who succumbs easily to pressure. In addition, when more than one person is involved in a crime, a Psychological phenomenon known as a diffusion of responsibility occurs. This means that each person feels less responsible for the crime because the responsibility is shared. If Billy is being honest and saying that he was there but didn't actively participate in the attack, he may have justified the crime to himself because others were doing something much worse.
Speaker 6:I get a call or a text from Steve saying that he's in my trailer apartment and he wanted to meet up with me. He wouldn't tell me why, but what there anything? So I'm like you know whatever you find on the side of the metal down the street. So you're going to meet Steve, yeah, and who's with Steve at this point? I think it was just him, and when you, on point with the interview, go is on foot. Okay, so what happened at that meeting? He's only going in that. You're going to watch me, chris.
Speaker 2:Apparently, steven had texted Billy around midnight, after meeting Christopher at Walmart, to their next stop would be Quinn's house before heading off for the night. However, as we'll hear from Quinn himself, he wasn't all too thrilled to be joining the trio that night. Apparently, steven had informed him earlier that day of his plans to commit a robbery, where his Quinn was a little apprehensive at the idea. Regardless, steven would ensure his friends compliance and made his way to Quinn's house a little after 12 am there were text messages.
Speaker 5:There were calls. I told Stevie that my dad had caught me going out, which I didn't even attempt yet. My dad was downstairs. So I said very softly into the phone, but he said your dad caught you. And I said yes. He said I don't care if your dad catches you, I don't care if you walk out the front door, you have to get out tonight.
Speaker 2:Eventually, quinn agreed to go along and even brought an extra pair of gloves per Steven's request. We need to get them on for me.
Speaker 6:Well, yeah, I'll put out no idea. No idea. I have no idea where I am. I don't know if I'm on the right side of the road. Okay, I don't know, I just don't run there.
Speaker 6:Alright, I don't remember much of that night. How come I just try to fuck it out? I bet, I bet, were you using drugs that night. No, drinking, okay, I want to need the other guy. No, how did you come to target that house? I don't know, it was their idea. I had no idea. Okay, at what point did they bring you into the idea and tell you what was going to happen? When they picked me up or when I met them on the phone, okay, what did they discuss with you? They just discussed that they were gonna. They were gonna like, try to just, I don't know. They kind of.
Speaker 6:I don't usually understand him. He doesn't make sense most of the time. Yeah, I've known him for a while and when he said stuff that he wants to do is he usually doesn't mean it. Yeah, he's just. You know, that's just how I interpret it. But he's like oh, yeah, we're gonna go try to do this. Go try and do what. If you don't understand, just use his words, but we're gonna go try and just make some money. That that's his expression. We're gonna go try and make some money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was Steven saying that, yeah if Billy isn't a violent criminal, it makes sense that he's tried to block that night from his memory. It can be traumatic to witness such a scene and oftentimes those who come along for the ride, like Billy claims to have done, could be somewhat afraid of speaking out or trying to stop the others from committing the crime. In addition, billy may think that if he keeps the details to a minimum, it will make him seem less culpable and save him from having to answer uncomfortable questions. But what Billy may have known was that Steven, the supposed ringleader of the group, had apparently been discussing his urge to commit a brutal crime.
Speaker 5:He started off saying would you take a hit for me, would you take the blame for me? He would wait for me to agree and then he would move on, say would you break into a house with me, would you steal something with me? And then you'd wait for me to agree. And then, closer to the event, he started talking about you know when you kill for me if somebody was on my back.
Speaker 2:Next, billy explains that Christopher had driven the group of four to the address of Fort Rowe Road. They originally planned to burglarize the house next to the Cates but abandoned the idea out of fear that it would be too big and confusing. Christopher dropped his accomplices off at the residence but quickly drove off to find an appropriate parking spot, deciding on a house's long driveway down the road. Around 30 minutes later he met the three back at the Cates home to plan their entry.
Speaker 6:They just take a figure out how to get in the house. That's basically what we're doing. They were trying to figure out how to get in. Okay, they said they got in. They said they got in. Now I was over a stand somewhere Looking out watching the people, okay, and who came and said they got in? I don't know this target and I can't really see nobody, so I don't know who. Did you go into the house with them?
Speaker 2:Yes, there is a noticeable delay before Billy answers this question. When someone hesitates before responding, this usually indicates they're thinking about what to say. Since this was a simple question and he should have readily known if he went inside or not, the pause was likely due to him considering what would happen if he said no, he may have pondered if he would get in less trouble. However, billy rejected this ideas. He may have realized that the detectives already knew he was inside, so lying might make things worse for him.
Speaker 6:You're a little guy you know how tall are you, billy? Five to five to how much do you weigh? 96 pounds, little guy. That would be handy to have that several window right the opening it wasn't a big opening, right? No, the cellar window.
Speaker 2:If they lower you into the cellar window, yeah, okay next we pick up with Christopher, whose confession is one of the most chilling that you'll ever hear.
Speaker 1:Steve and I are very similar. Steven Spader, both of us grew up with problems in our families. Technically we're both sociopaths, legally by Neuropsychologists. Declaration there should be a paper in the scripture case in the top, black top drawer, black dresser that says as much.
Speaker 2:Okay. Sociopathy is not an actual clinical diagnosis, but rather a term that describes a set of personality factors. The terms sociopath and psychopath are sometimes used interchangeably and have many similarities, but there are a few key differences. Sociopaths may form some attachments to a select few people, while psychopaths are unable to have a genuine connection with anyone. Psychopaths are more likely to be calculating and appear charismatic, whereas sociopaths are more reckless and disorganized.
Speaker 2:Individuals with anti-social personality disorder may fit the description for sociopathy or Psychopathy, but the official diagnosis would be anti-social personality disorder. Christopher's traits seem to heavily align with this disorder, which may not come as a surprise to everyone. Only days before October 4th 2009, christopher had sent a frightening message to his ex-girlfriend, ashley Martin. I've tried letting my nice side run things. It didn't work. Now the dark side of me will. Many people with anti-social personality disorder will describe having these two sides to their personality. They can be very charismatic and personable. In many cases, however, it doesn't take much for the other side to emerge, which is often triggered by anger, stress or if the person simply has a need to fulfill.
Speaker 1:A few days ago we decided that we were still willing to cash. We couldn't manage to get jobs and we were gonna try and get another robbery. We weren't sure when or how we were gonna do it. Saturday morning, when I was with Steve, he told me that him and Billy had been cruising around and they found a house at Mont Vernon that looked reasonable enough that it was out in the middle of nowhere. I don't think we were gonna go in there, but it was just me and him together in the car.
Speaker 3:You and him meeting me and Steve in the car.
Speaker 1:He said, yeah, we're just gonna go in there Grab some stuff. Anybody's there, we're gonna kill him, have some fun. I agreed we could do that. That sounded good.
Speaker 2:This strongly suggests that, although Christopher did not know the victims, there was a conditional intent to kill if people were present in the house.
Speaker 2:However, premeditation doesn't require a certain period of time to form as an element of murder, only enough time to form the intent, consider the crime and then act. This can be as little as a few seconds, but this may not have been the only crime committed by Christopher and Stephen. Apparently, on Sunday, september 27, only one week prior to Kimberly's death, a robbery had taken place in Brookline, right next to Stephen's house. The McNeil family had left for church at the same time they did every Sunday and returned to later that afternoon. It wouldn't be until around 7.30pm that they noticed their back door to the porch had been kicked in. Along with this, they discovered that various items of jewelry were missing, in addition to an iPod, a piggy bank and several other valuables. Supposedly, christopher had known the family quite well, as they attended the same church and Stephen was also well acquainted with them on account of the family's close living quarters. Although it hasn't been confirmed, it is most likely the previous robbery that Christopher is referring to here.
Speaker 1:Billy was in on it too. He was all for it. We all have pocket knives. I had found a machete that my father owned and Stephen mentioned he liked machetes, so I brought it along and there's a Boy Scout knife, a straight knife, about four or five inches long, thin blade. I liked it. It had a very nice handle and it had a leather case that could go on your belt. So I chose that. We met up. Quinn was going to be on it too, autumn was going to be our cover store and he said we'd get there. Whenever we told him he'd say we were there from that time on. So we had an alibi.
Speaker 2:This information clearly shows preparation for the commission of the crime of murder and goes to support premeditation. Christopher also has an interesting deviation from the story here, as the knife he had seems to hold just as much interest to him as the upcoming story.
Speaker 1:We looked around for a good entry point where we would make a lot of noise. We didn't see any alarm systems, so we figured we would probably set up. All the doors were locked. We finally found one basement window. We thought we could get Billy into if I could get it open.
Speaker 1:I used the black mechanical assist knife that I own to cut the screens. There were two screens between us and the window. I tried to cut the frame out of the window but ended up breaking the glass, which point I basically bashed in the window, not the glass. But I managed to break it off of the handle that was on top holding it down. We couldn't get anyone else in any other way so far, and so we started sliding Billy in. Billy got in and was because he went over to the basement door and thought it was locked because he pushed on it instead of pulling. He was stuck in the basement and they were trying to get him out. We had the idea that we could take the air conditioner out, so I cut the panels off from around the side and we moved the air conditioner over.
Speaker 2:Take note of Christopher's wording. Here he asserts his superiority over Billy, who most likely had an emotional response and panicked where, as Christopher believes himself to be someone that would never get locked in a room. Continuing with the course of events, once Stephen was inside of the home, he quietly made his way to the back door, where Christopher and Quinn were waiting outside. They eventually found Billy in the basement and proceeded with their depraved plan. Upon their entry, they noticed that the residents had motion detectors. In hopes to avert the system, Christopher swiftly located the breakers next to the front door, cutting the power within a second. As they began to search for jewelry, an iPod was discovered in one of the several rooms, which was likely Jamie's. Using the iPod's screen light to guide their way, Stephen led the sadistic pack towards the master bedroom, where Kimberly and her daughter were peacefully sleeping.
Speaker 1:When Stephen opened the master bedroom door quietly, he looked in and he said that there were people. But we thought he said there's no people. So he started to get a little bit relaxed and started talking, started to climb quite as down. Then he shined the light on the bed and that's when they woke up. The mother said something like Jamie, is that you? Stevie threw the light. He went around to one side of the bed where the girl apparently was sleeping. I started to circle around to the other side in case something happened. The mom sat up in the bed, started asking who was there, what was going on, tried to turn them away, but it didn't turn on. When she did that, steve started hacking into the bed with the machete. They started screaming because they heard something. Apparently he missed them mostly, but I heard him hit them all and so I dove in and stabbed her a few times in the chest. Steve was just hacking away. He totally lost it. I was controlled, but I didn't really feel much or anything.
Speaker 3:I thought I would, but I didn't. Well, we were Quinn and Billy Dillon.
Speaker 1:They stayed by the door. They didn't do anything. Honestly, we did everything. The girl jumped up I almost sensed her in the dark get up and jumped over her mother. Steve was hacking away and she jumped right into my arms. I stabbed her once towards the face. Then I went for the front because I was swinging around and she got free at my hand and went flying into the glass door, knocked her head. I stopped crying completely. I figured she was probably toast.
Speaker 1:The mom was still gurgling and kind of breathing deeply. Steve just went at her. I was actually kind of scared of him. He just kept hacking into the bed, came over to our side and hacked at it some more, then went over and kicked the girl a couple of times with his steel toe boots and then hit her in the head with the machete. So he said he'd aim for that. I was backing off because I knew Steve was losing it. I could tell. And he turned around and looked like Jason from Halloween with the machete in his hand. I told him Steve, relax, it's just me, it's Chris. He was breathing hard and relaxed. Quinn had the good sense to go, turn the breakers back on and light some of them.
Speaker 2:In fact, Quinn couldn't believe the horror before his eyes.
Speaker 5:The mother woke up and she made a comment. She said Jamie, I know something. Then you covered your ears and ran. I didn't run, I walked out of the room. That's because you knew what the purpose was to be there. I guess I didn't believe it was really happening. I was shocked that people were home. I was shocked that this was actually happening. I walked down the hallway because I didn't want to face the reality.
Speaker 1:The mom was obviously not going to make it. The girl I was pretty sure wasn't going to she was completely out there.
Speaker 2:She was blood all over the place. According to Christopher's description of Stephen's behavior, it seems that Stephen was experiencing a rage blackout, which is similar to those that people with anger management issues struggle with. The person often acts very primitively, as was the case with Stephen and how he brutally murdered Kimberly. Christopher's actions are calmer and more methodical. Evidence of this can go to show many things, among them a sense of self-control and understanding which negates any sort of non-culpability defense. A court-appointed psychiatrist would be able to interview Christopher and easily determine that he understood the nature of his acts and knew at the time of the crime that they were wrong. However, he may have wanted to portray himself as remaining in control because he believed it made him look stronger compared to Stephen. For someone with antisocial personality disorder, they might see it as very negative to lose control, as they often view themselves as superior to others. Whether he lost it or not, the outcome of their twisted idea of fun was something beyond your worst nightmare. Horrifically so, kimberly had been struck with a machete in the head and torso 36 times, while her daughter had suffered 18 severe wounds, including a punctured lung, a fractured elbow, a cracked skull and a partially amputated foot.
Speaker 2:Following the murder, quinn had unexpectedly turned the lights back on, forcing them to look at the disturbing scene. However, this may have given them even more of the gratification that they so greatly desired, and although the perpetrators were convinced that their work had been done, they underestimated just how strong that 11-year-old girl really was. Petrified, jamie lay there on the bloodstained floor while her attackers stole a few pieces of jewelry before fleeing the scene, pretending that she had succumbed to her injuries. Jamie was able to escape the cruel fate that they had so mercilessly tried to bring upon her. She was able to gather all of her strength and dial 911. When someone encounters a threat, they may stop all movement and sound in an attempt to hide from whatever the threat is also known as the freeze response. The idea is that by drawing as little attention to themselves as possible, they may minimize the danger. In doing so, there's no doubt that Jamie showed an incredible amount of courage, and although it seems we've heard every blood-curdling detail from Christopher, billy is suddenly rather hesitant to give the full story.
Speaker 6:You never go in that master bedroom. You never confront these people. Your knife was never used? Oh, not at all. All right, Did you ever? I know this is a tough thing for you. Did you ever see the people? I only talk about them. You don't want to talk about whether you saw them or not.
Speaker 2:It's just that whole part. Billy's answers have been brief and, while not completely avoidant, they have been limited. This could be taken in one of two ways Either he's guilty in trying to hide his crimes, even feeling remorse or disgusted about what they took part in, or he's a traumatized onlooker who had no idea what was going to happen and whose brain blocked out much of the memory as a protective measure. We know that our brain is capable of protecting itself from traumatizing events in this way, but this is also an awfully convenient excuse that someone can use when trying to avoid openly and honestly retelling the events that occurred. In spite of this, the detective informs Billy that forensic evidence will always prove fact from fiction, so it's in his best interest to be completely transparent. He finally admits to stepping foot in the master bedroom for a short amount of time.
Speaker 6:It was pitch black, okay and then someone turned the little power back on. I don't remember who, I don't remember why, you know. So I just came on and I saw her there and you saw what, billy, I know what's happening. I know what's happening, you know, I don't know. Did you see the woman? Yeah, where was she? She was alive. I don't know, I didn't think so. Okay. Did you see the little girl? Yeah, where was she? She was on the floor. Was she alive? I don't know, I didn't think so. You ever touch anyone? No, you ever touch anyone. No, did you lend you nights anyone that night? No, just a little bit of thought.
Speaker 2:The fact that Billy even took a knife to the burglary indicates that he may have had the intention of using it.
Speaker 2:On the other hand, the knife possibly helped Billy to feel tough so he could build up the nerve to enter the home and commit the robbery.
Speaker 2:It seems, however, that the violence, blood and death was too much for him to handle. Manipulative killers will often seek their partners using a certain pattern, as we see here. They'll joke about things like crime and murder to see who's completely repulsed and not a potential accomplice and who will let it slide. Eventually they'll take it further down the path of dark crime, jokes or actions, until the other person is complicit in something serious with no way to escape. This may have been the case with Steven, although Billy asserts that there was never an orchestrated plan and he thought the mutual understanding between the group was that it would be a robbery and nothing more. But later it was revealed that he and Steven had previously scouted Trove Road for a house to burglarize, even telling a friend on Saturday October 3rd that Stevie was planning a breaking and entering. Not only this, but Billy had been flaunting his assisted opening knife, allegedly stating that he was planning on using it on a police officer or someone else, I would never tell anybody, obviously.
Speaker 6:So I was planning on it. I was just in there for the. I just wanted to make some quick one. But what were they? And I thought the same. I honestly can't even tell you what their intentions were, but they had a plan if they confronted somebody, didn't they, I guess? So Did they tell you what that plan was if they confronted someone? I heard, oh then yes, I did. But they told me that if there were people in the house that they would hide them up in this corner for a court, whatever that's. You know, that's what I thought would be happening. When did they tell you that? Probably the day or two before, maybe. So you had discussed the burglary ahead of time.
Speaker 2:Not that specific. Supposedly Stephen had even requested that a friend research how to make the dangerous concoction.
Speaker 7:He wanted me to look up how to make chloroform, I was like, alright, whatever. I didn't see it as a big deal because I had known Steve to own copies of the Anarchist and Terrorist Cookbook. Knowing Steve and his history, I took everything I heard with a grain of salt Because, as much as you know, steve was like a brother to me. I couldn't really trust the words, anything that Steve said in all actuality, because he'd give these grandiose stories and there'd be no one to corroborate anything he said.
Speaker 2:Apparently, the Friday before the attack, stephen had told Autumn that he had a plan in mind for that weekend, but didn't want to divulge any details to his friend, his reason being that he wanted Autumn to stay out of trouble. However, stephen will involve him soon enough. Despite Stephen and Christopher's alleged plan, billy asserts that they did not bring the chloroform after all. While the little girl struggled to call the police, the assailants quickly fled on foot back to Christopher's car, where they each had a new pair of clothes to change into. They drove Billy back to his vehicle at Walmart and later dropped Quinn off at his house. Before Stephen and Christopher made their way to Autumn's place around 5.30 in the morning, before leaving the Cade's house, stephen had allegedly wished to carve the words you're lucky. Into the neighbor's outside wall. Seeing as they were almost chosen as the innocent victims, this likely indicates that Stephen may have been on a sort of high after murdering Kimberly, feeling like a villain, and that he had the power to spare the people next door.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we basically planned that if someone was there, we were going to kill him.
Speaker 3:Did you think that if somebody was there, if they resisted, you were going to kill him? Or was it just… we were just going to kill him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll be perfectly honest. I wanted to kill someone for a long time. It's like an urge. It was kind of a time that I could get it out.
Speaker 2:It's very rare for a murderer to make this sort of admission. Although it's horrific to hear and very confusing for the average person to understand such a desire, it's this type of information that helps us to understand the mind of someone with severe antisocial personality disorder. They don't value human life the way a typical person does and only think of their own needs and desires, their own urges, as Christopher insightfully described. They often know right from wrong, as Christopher verbalized earlier, of how horrific it would be for someone to harm a woman, let alone a little girl, but they don't guide themselves by moral principles. People with antisocial personality can often learn to mimic normal human emotion, but they don't actually feel that emotion.
Speaker 1:I thought at least I would feel that about it. I'm almost sorry to say I don't. I'm not sure why. I thought I would at least like puke afterwards or something, after looking at her with her form open, with the bone showing. When you say her, you mean the woman, yeah, starting the girl. She was saying please don't do this.
Speaker 3:The mom was saying please don't do this.
Speaker 1:The girl the little girl. The mom was like it'll be okay. I think her mom probably hoped that we weren't going to hurt the little girl, because she was a little girl it was kind of cool because it was different. But I'm not really sure if I have the conscience anymore.
Speaker 2:Christopher may very well be enjoying the process of telling the story because he gets to relive the incident. This may be why he's being so forthcoming, providing so much detail, even laying out his feelings and thought process. He's giving the detectives much more than what they're asking for, but it's unlikely that he's doing it to help the detectives because, like he said, he doesn't care or feel bad and he isn't sure if he has a conscience, Even with the possibility of being locked in prison for the rest of his life, he may be able to feel some satisfaction thinking back to the memory of the crime.
Speaker 1:Steve had mentioned that we weren't going to have time to torture and that we'd do it some other time.
Speaker 2:It's likely that Steven was the more sadistic of the two, although Christopher seems to definitely have sadistic tendencies. It seems that Steven was more of the savage, violent criminal who plotted the crimes, while Christopher was more of the brains of the operation.
Speaker 1:I think Steve enjoys just the butchery part of it, just the power. I'm more of a precision sort of guy. If I went in there to kill, I'm just going to kill him. Steve was pretty much excited, but it definitely wasn't his first time. It was like yeah, it's awesome, you'll get used to the crest.
Speaker 2:He gets addicted but we'll take care of him. Even Autumn can recall Steven's volatile nature.
Speaker 7:Steve had always talked about doing shootings and killing people and said he'd killed a lot of people and he had got a lot of respect on the streets and whatever, and it always said he wanted to kill someone to know what it felt like. I never took it as anything more than the ramblings of a troubled kid.
Speaker 2:According to Autumn, steven had apparently proclaimed at one point you have no idea what I'm capable of.
Speaker 7:Steve had mentioned in the past that he wanted to kill his mom because there was a lot of animosity between them, because she degraded him. In his opinion, he was thinking very seriously and discussing with Chris Gribble about murdering his mother, steven's mother.
Speaker 2:This sort of obsession with murder and enjoyment of the act itself is common among people with severe antisocial personality disorder. Oftentimes they'll commit murder as a means to an end, such as to obtain money or to avoid being caught. If a victim lives and is able to identify them, it's less common when the person actually takes pleasure in the act of murder. This is often evidenced by the weapon that is chosen and the manner that the murder was executed. For instance, using a machete may indicate enjoyment of the process, since it involves closer contact with the victim and their death is prolonged. Using a firearm could indicate that the person simply wanted to kill the victim as quickly as possible, as it provides physical distance and often kills quickly.
Speaker 1:Steve had mentioned before that he's killed multiple people. He said this wasn't his first. Mom and daughter, he's not either but we're in the driveway.
Speaker 2:It's possible that Steven was lying about his alleged previous murders to impress the group. However, it may have also been a form of manipulation. He wanted them to feel confident that he'd already gotten away with murder before, so they could trust that he would make sure they got away with it this time too. Although Steven's claims have never been confirmed, the fact that he would make such alarming claims is enough to shock you to your core. After the horrific ordeal, Christopher and Steven made their way to Autumn's house around five in the morning, where the young man seemed to be unaware of what had just occurred.
Speaker 7:I was looking at him and I was like what do you want? And he's like nothing, I'm just amped. I mean I've got an massive adrenaline rush right now. I was like why? He's like, oh, we just killed two people. Like he said it really nonchalantly. And I was like, and being Steve and his stories previously, I was like, yeah, okay, you know, I didn't believe a word of what he said.
Speaker 2:Autumn, was of the impression that they had committed a robbery and not a murder. However, as the attackers showcased their newfound possessions, he was more than willing to help dispose of the evidence.
Speaker 7:Chris grabbed the clothes in the bag of clothes and was carrying it, and Steve and I knew the path pretty well because that's where we used to go when smoke weeds. And so we went down there. Steven and Chris were trying to decide who was going to throw the stuff out of the river. And she's like why don't you just throw it in? I was like all right, I was extremely disturbed as to the story which they were telling me. I became very, very nervous because from the detail it just seems to be incredibly real.
Speaker 2:Hoping to put some distance between them and the murder, they plan to burn the remaining evidence, but Autumn supposedly had the idea of throwing it into the Nashua River instead, although, ironically enough, he would ultimately be the one to lead police directly to it. Although Autumn asserts that he had no previous knowledge of the intended crime, his story seems to contain a few holes.
Speaker 7:I was scared because, as far as I knew, I was sitting in a room with two murderers. Is that why you made jokes that you're not smarter than a big friend? I make jokes because it helps me stay calm and I was very scared. Those jokes didn't start occurring until after Billy at Texas, steve saying that the little girl had survived. On Saturday, steve looked me in the face and said there are only five people who know about this, four of us who did it and you, if it comes down to police showing up we know you read it and I love you like a brother, but I'll kill you and anyone you care about.
Speaker 2:During his interrogation, autumn jumped at the first opportunity to confess, showing where he, stephen and Christopher had thrown a black trash bag with a small jewelry box, an air conditioner, screen rubber gloves, a plastic bag with an insurance card belonging to David Cates, a red sweatshirt with Stephen's name, socks with Christopher's name and several other items placed inside. Christopher and Stephen had also buried some of the remaining jewelry the machete, a knife and two iPods, one from the Cates home and one from their previous robbery in a wooded area near Christopher's house, but not before they had a chance to show off the terrifying weapons to their friends. Hours after the murder had taken place, christopher, stephen, billy and another friend, eldon Spikes, had all been hanging out at their regular spot, walmart, where Stephen had supposedly revealed the tale of horror. He was excited to tell the story, supposedly stating that he wished he could do it again, although the friends were unsure if Eldon had taken the words into account, considering that he had allegedly been high on numerous drugs. Christopher and Stephen then traveled to the Pheasant Lane Mall in Nashua selling the jewelry for $130 at a cash for gold store, where they were actually stopped by police for appearing suspicious. They were informed that multiple robberies had recently taken place in Brookline and Montvernon, but of course the two didn't confess their guilt. As a result, the officer didn't question them any further. But little did he know he was staring into the faces of stone cold killers.
Speaker 2:Later that day, christopher and Stephen traveled to their friend Kyle Fenton's home located in Brookline, and brought the machete and knife along with them. There they proudly revealed their haunting secret, spilling every shocking detail about the murder and parading the weapons as if it were show and tell. But what the teenagers managed to forget was that not everyone would share in their excitement at the gruesome crime, and some might even report it to the police. Fortunately, when Kyle informed his mother of the situation, she did exactly that. Christopher and Stephen's grandiosity had unsurprisingly backfired In their excitement. They got too boastful and essentially participated in turning themselves in.
Speaker 6:If I would tell you that Eldon said he was threatened, would that surprise you? No, no, do you know Eldon was threatened? I don't know he was certain. Did you hear that he had been threatened? No, you don't know anything about that threat. No, okay, again, I'm going to ask you if you heard any more details after the fact any of the guys talking about it. They seemed quite amused by it. They seemed amused by it. Who's they? Stephen and Chris. Stephen and Chris Was quite amused by it. I didn't really see him that much. I didn't really talk to him. He didn't talk to me, he didn't really talk much. What did they say that made you thought they were amused? They just laughed about it. They seemed to not be cared. So they said it was just a small chatter, but all this was bigger. After, in the house, they didn't really talk much, but afterwards they said that you know they said pretty much it was like it was fun. It was fun. Who said it was fun?
Speaker 2:Stephen. However, the disturbing jokes were not shared by everyone, as Quinn was in disbelief at the gruesome attack.
Speaker 5:Chris was just saying that he was happy he got the kid and we had a little bit of an argument over that, just over the ethics of it. Who had the argument? You and Chris, me and Chris. It wasn't a heated argument, but he said he was happy that he got the kid and I said, no, not women and children.
Speaker 2:Quinn goes on to chillingly state that Steven wanted to get Chris into killing by committing such an act. Unfortunately, the disturbing plan seemed to have worked Steven and Chris were just going back and forth about just having a rush.
Speaker 5:Did they say anything more specifically about what they had done? It was halfway down the dirt road. That's when Chris said he was happy he got the girl. Stevie was making the machete joke. Oh, I'm sorry, it wasn't a machete joke he was making a joke about. Oh, she woke up to get hacked to death by a machete. Chris and Stevie were just very jovial in a rush. I was agreeing, going along with it, because I was just in the house and one of my friends and a new acquaintance just killed people and I wasn't about to disagree with anything. And Billy said something about being put in the newspaper and Stevie said something. He said, yeah, we're going to be in the paper, but not us.
Speaker 2:According to Quinn, Billy had wanted to be in the newspaper ever since he was a child and, given his crime, it seemed that it didn't matter how. Sunday night the four criminals, along with Eldon, had been visiting at Quinn's house when the hangout suddenly turned volatile. Steven, worried about Eldon's knowledge of the homicide, wished to dispose of the loose end. Unsurprisingly, Christopher was on board to commit yet another murder, but thankfully Quinn stepped between the three and pleaded for Eldon's life. He assured his accomplices that not a word would be spoken of the incident, ultimately ending the confrontation.
Speaker 1:Billy apparently either his friend or his friend. You see, when Steve's friends, or it was Billy's sister or something like that. One of his friend's sisters goes to school the same place that the little girl did, and so it's all around the school. And so we got on the online telegraph and went on his computer and looked at it and found out the girl had survived. There wasn't a lot out there. They gave me a really hard time. They were like wow, chris, you couldn't even kill a 10-year-old. Give me a really hard time. Who's they? Steven, otto, steve's like. At least I killed my bitch.
Speaker 2:Christopher says this almost as if he wants the investigators to feel bad for him rather than focusing on the fact that they just murdered a mother and brutally assaulted her child. Presenting Steven in this way may be helpful to Christopher's case. Although Steven may or may not have said this, it's in Christopher's best interest to display Steven as the more unempathetic and violent criminal. That way, christopher believes he looks like a bit of a victim compared to his monster of a friend. On top of this, the other three apparently referred to Christopher as a murder virgin, as he was unable to complete the thrill kill. I'm kind of surprised she's alive.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure. I kind of wish she died for her sake, just because she's going to have to live with all that. Now You're going to be lucky, William. If I'm going to kill someone, I'm going to actually do it so that they don't have to sit and live with a bunch of trauma. I've been through so much trauma, I know when someone would go through that.
Speaker 2:So if I can just end it for them, I would. This bizarre claim may all be a front. Christopher may feel a sense of failure because Jamie lived. He doesn't want to be viewed as weak, so he suggests that he's only disappointed for her sake, when in actuality it likely has everything to do with him and nothing to do with her. At the same time, christopher is once again presenting himself as a victim. However, this couldn't be further from the truth.
Speaker 2:Following the chilling confessions, billy had supposedly discussed with his dad the idea of selling his story to various media outlets Another indication of how heartless he was. In the end, billy and Quinn were given plea deals for testifying against Christopher and Stephen. Billy pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit murder, burglary in first degree assault, and sentenced to 30 to 60 years behind bars. In comparison, quinn pleaded guilty to burglary, robbery and conspiracy to commit burglary, receiving a sentence of 20 to 40 years. Autumn was eventually sentenced to a minimum of five years for hindering apprehension and conspiracy to hinder apprehension. In an unsuccessful attempt to avoid a first degree murder charge, christopher pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. The idea he'd been insane was quickly denied by the court, psychiatrist stating that he was well aware of his behavior and actively chose to commit such a horrendous crime. During his trial, stephen appeared to not take the proceeding seriously when he made a shocking and unusual request to his attorney. He was real, he was a real, real, real, real.
Speaker 5:What do you say? Yo, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know. There are a few different reasons behind this kind of behavior. One possibility is that Stephen could be trying to manipulate the situation and gain sympathy from the jury by reminding them that it's his birthday. He might hope that the jury will feel more inclined to be lenient in their sentencing or view him as more human and relatable. Another possibility is that he is simply trying to exert control over the situation by asking about his birthday and the possibility of the jury singing. He's taking an active role in the proceedings and potentially even trying to dictate the mood or tone of the courtroom. It's also possible that he's simply trying to assert some kind of dominance and show that he is unfazed by the gravity of the situation. Regardless of the specific motivation, it's clear that this kind of behavior is concerning and indicative of a serious lack of empathy or remorse, and shows that he's completely out of touch with the situation and why he's sitting there in the first place. In contrast, christopher allegedly stated that if given the chance, nothing could prevent him from killing again.
Speaker 2:Both Stephen and Christopher were eventually convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole, although in 2012, the United States Supreme Court ruled against sentencing minors to life without receiving any chance of parole. But, shockingly, stephen filed a motion not to appeal his conviction and the New Hampshire Supreme Court granted it, stephen's rationale behind the decision being that he is the most sick and twisted person you'll ever meet and should never be given a second chance. We reached out to speak with Stephen, but he declined to comment on the case. William Marks and Quinn Glover, who stood by and did absolutely nothing while Kimberly and Jamie were attacked, are likely to be paroled in the coming years. Quinn was granted parole on his robbery charge and will likely be released in 2029. William will be eligible for parole in 2024. Autumn Savoy was already released on parole in 2015.