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Killer Breaks Down Talking to Voices In His Head: The Case of Jeffrey Hazelwood
Killer BREAKS DOWN talking to the VOICES in his head...
The following podcast episode is not legal advice. Do not rely on the information in this presentation without speaking to a licensed attorney.
No one discussed in these videos has been formally diagnosed by EWU and our psychological analysis is based on the general behaviors and traits of the people discussed.
Killer BREAKS DOWN talking to the VOICES in his head...
The following podcast episode is not legal advice. Do not rely on the information in this presentation without speaking to a licensed attorney.
No one discussed in these videos has been formally diagnosed by EWU and our psychological analysis is based on the general behaviors and traits of the people discussed.
When two teenagers were found brutally murdered behind a public's, the community of Roswell, georgia, was shaken to its core.
Speaker 2:Brother, my one-on-one situation was I just drove around the public's over here changed flowers and they looked like two bodies were laying behind the store.
Speaker 1:The two victims were loved by everyone who knew them, and the police were desperate to find the person responsible for their deaths. Little did they know that their murderer was more deranged and twisted than they could have imagined.
Speaker 2:What did you do? What did you do to an Abingouly gang? Abingouly gang, I don't know. Okay, where is he? Where is this? Everywhere? We don't see him. Pretty secret. They talked to me, ha ha.
Speaker 1:On August 1st 2016,. A delivery driver was making a standard early morning delivery to publics when he noticed something that would haunt him for the rest of his life Two teenagers were lying naked and dead behind the storm. Each one had a singular gunshot wound to the head and had been positioned near their parked cars. The police were quick to show up on the scene and were soon met by some anxious parents whose children hadn't returned last night. With the help of the parents, the police were able to identify the two victims as Natalie Henderson and Carter Davis, both just 17 years old and preparing to go into their final year of high school. From what the police could gather, both teenagers were incredibly outgoing, kind and well-loved. None of their friends or family could think of anyone who wanted to hurt the two, leaving police searching for any lead as to who their mysterious killer might be, but they weren't left without any clues for long.
Speaker 1:Using the security footage from neighboring businesses, the police were able to see that their suspect was a young, dark-haired man who appeared to be wearing some sort of wide mask. In the footage, the two teens could be seen spending time together while their assailants secretly stalked them from behind a nearby electrical box. After watching the couple for some time, the mysterious man confronted them and ultimately shot the two. While this evidence was definitely a step in the right direction, it still wasn't enough to positively ID the killer. The next big break for the police came in the form of Natalie Henderson's bank statements, as officers realized her credit card had been used at a nearby flash foods gas station several minutes after her death. After checking the security footage at the gas station, officers were able to get enough details on the killer's car to trace it to a 20-year-old man named Jeffrey Hazelwood. After tailing Jeffrey for some time, police officers found him acting erratically outside of a gas station and they made the decision to detain him. What did?
Speaker 2:you do? What did you do? What did you do? What did you do? What did you do? What happened? But I didn't do anything. What's going on?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no. The police began the long and arduous task of questioning him and those closest to him, and in the following never-before-seen footage Will watches they discover the horrifying truth behind the two teens' murders. After arriving at the station for questioning, Jeffrey is brought to an interrogation room and left on his own for 20 minutes.
Speaker 2:Give us just a minute, you okay? You okay, take it.
Speaker 1:No, that's fine, During this time he can be heard talking to himself and experiencing ticks in his hands.
Speaker 2:After spending a little break, I'm going to put the wind-punched side connection code.
Speaker 1:The ticks in Jeffrey's hands could be the result of several things, but is likely an external sign of the extreme anxiety he's experiencing. The fact that Jeffrey is in a fetal position in his chair is another sign that he's under emotional duress, as that position is believed to bring comfort and a sense of safety. Additionally, Jeffrey may be talking to himself as a way of soothing his anxiety and fear. At this point, Jeffrey is still claiming to have no clue why he was detained, and it's time for Detective Bennett to step into the room and figure out what exactly Jeffrey is hiding.
Speaker 2:You, okay. No, what's going on? What's the matter? Why are you at your chair? Everything was falling apart, nothing. I don't know what's happening. Okay, what's falling apart? Everything, everything I've got. My hand is taking me out on the first, but before that, my hand is going to hell. Okay, and I can do anything. If it's too much, I can take it away. It's away, it's away.
Speaker 1:Okay. As Bennett walks into the room, she immediately picks up on Jeffrey's discomfort and tries to calm him down. Jeffrey's confusion, shaking and anxiety are all signs of a psychotic episode, and Detective Bennett is more than aware of this. She speaks to him in a manner similar to how someone would speak to a child, in an attempt to keep him as calm and cooperative as possible in his fragile state. In order to continue building rapport with him, Detective Bennett gathers some background information on his wife.
Speaker 2:Tell me your wife's name, kelsey. Kelsey Bonham Bonham. Okay, so you guys don't have the same last name. We don't. We're not in our religion. Okay, we need to leave, but to us there is Okay. When did y'all get here? You're talking. When is the second, the 22nd of April. Okay, I don't know where we are. How are things going with Kelsey? You said at the very beginning of us talking that things weren't going very well. Do you want to talk to me about that?
Speaker 1:What's going on with her?
Speaker 2:What's the matter? She just keeps fighting and fighting. It's all my fault, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's evident that Jeffrey is incredibly upset at the idea of losing his wife or fighting with her. Detective Bennett soon learns that Kelsey is Jeffrey's only positive relationship. After explaining that he was taken from his mother and given to his grandparents when he was only 18 months old, he goes more in depth about the kind of relationship he alleges he has with them. It's important to note that there's no evidence of any of Jeffrey's claims being true and are instead his version of what happened. Mr Pete, you're out of me real bad.
Speaker 2:How old are you? And I haven't. I think I was seven or ten in the title ground. Okay, so pretty young.
Speaker 1:Jeffrey paints a very disturbing picture of his childhood. Emotional and physical abuse, especially when inflicted at such a young age, can often trigger mental health disorders, and this alleged abuse could explain the anxious ticks we see Jeffrey experiencing. While Jeffrey talks to Detective Bennett about his life, his wife, kelsey, is being brought in for questioning alongside her mom. It's odd that Kelsey's mother is allowed in the interview room with her, given that she isn't underage, but the police reports reveal that she was there because Kelsey is hard of hearing and is also prone to having seizures. It's important to note that if she is significantly hard of hearing, this also impacts her body language. Individuals with hearing problems will not be able to modulate the tone or volume of their voice as effectively as a standard hearing individual. Additionally, if she used sign language as a child, she may talk more with her hands in even typical conversations and you said that you worked at Marshall's.
Speaker 2:Michael, michael, michael. You still work there. I'm a boy too. Which one do you work at? The one you're on about? Is that where you met Jeff? Did you all call him Jeff or Jeffrey Jeff? You met him there. He worked at the one in the operating room At the point he came to my door one night Okay, how long ago was that? It was March 7th. So you've all been dating ever since, sir, yes, right.
Speaker 1:With a few simple questions. The detective learns that Kelsey and Jeffrey have been dating for around five months. That's a seemingly short amount of time to date before getting married legally or otherwise.
Speaker 2:Does he ever stay over at y'all's house overnight at all? Is that something that we he has with her? I really don't know much about the boy at all, but okay.
Speaker 1:Based on her tone and the fact that she only refers to Jeffrey as the boy, it's clear that Kelsey's mom doesn't approve of their relationship. Wanting to find out more about who Jeffrey is in his daily life, the officer asks Kelsey about his religious beliefs.
Speaker 2:I heard some mention of like with nature, realm, experience and that sort of stuff. Does he believe in that sort of stuff? Do you have one? He did, or what is it? He had two of them, oh yeah, the hawk and the wolf. What did he have with the hawks? I looked at him. Every time when he felt safe he did look up. Maybe a hawk? Hmm, I understand.
Speaker 1:I understand Hawks and wolves are both predatory animals which may give some insight to the officer, but they're not predatory animals. Kelsey also mentions that Jeffrey Veldhawks were protecting him, which could indicate that he may struggle with feeling unsafe or threatened in the world. Now that Kelsey has warmed up to the officer, he begins asking more pointed questions.
Speaker 2:I know, um, for the fact that sometimes you carry weapons with them. Um, I would at least. Yeah, I know about that. Have you ever seen him carrying a firearm, or have you ever been in the car at all?
Speaker 1:Yes, it doesn't appear that Kelsey is lying when she answers this question, meaning that she likely has no knowledge of Jeffrey's recent crimes.
Speaker 2:So you have this pretty high straw moldy. You said, yeah, I don't High straw like. Is he nervous, fidgety here?
Speaker 1:No, Kelsey interrupts the question before the officer can finish. Even if she doesn't know anything about the murders, it seems as though she might be lying about other aspects of his life. This claim from Kelsey directly contradicts how we see Jeffrey acting in his own interrogation, meaning Kelsey is either purposefully lying or doesn't know her husband as well as she might think. This isn't our only sign that Kelsey may know more than she's letting on.
Speaker 2:Does he normally go straight home to his grandparents' place on the air? How is it? Well, I guess, depending on the time of day, he might end up going back to work or something. Um, yeah, I'm both at home, Joe.
Speaker 1:Where does he go when he doesn't?
Speaker 2:You know? No, I'm not really.
Speaker 1:Right after answering the officer's question, kelsey can be seen glancing up at the camera, indicating that she may have not been truthful and is thinking about the fact that her lies are being recorded, even more important than glancing at the camera. Her foot starts bouncing, indicating a likely increase in anxiety, and her nose appears twitchy, which can often indicate anxiety, as fight or fly causes the nose to become engorged and itchy. Also, despite appearances, she is still quite closed off. Her arm is crossed in a barrier across her body, legs tightly crossed, with ankles close to each other and close to her body overall, still sustaining closed off body language. When officers are looking for signs of deception, there is no one cue that tells them that an individual is lying, as cues can happen for different reasons. However, as they add up and turn into cluster signs of anxiety, the officers will hone in on this and push a bit harder to see if the individual will crack and tell the truth or share what they're holding back. Your phone is still at the house, right?
Speaker 2:Your phone is still at the house, your cell phone. Where is it? Why? Because we need it. Why For our investigation, kelsey, you just tell them where it's at. It's in my room, in my bedroom.
Speaker 1:Unless there's a warrant specific to her phone, she is under no obligation to hand it over for investigation. The Fourth Amendment protects digital devices, including phones and laptops, from search and seizure, so she is well within her rights to question this and to ultimately refuse.
Speaker 2:It's still in the first room. Well, kind of, why do you have the only procedure Pictures? You know all kind of stuff, why do you stand to them that you don't even see First? No things Like what. No things, anything that can hurt you. No, okay, then I don't care what you, what she said you put on there. That's what I do, it's okay? No, not at it.
Speaker 1:Most younger people are extremely hesitant to hand over their phones to anyone, law enforcement included, and younger people are more likely to be suspicious of law enforcement in general. Kelsey may see her phone as something that is private and personal, so it's a violation of her right to privacy to have law enforcement go through it. However, exercising your rights is very much black and white. You either exercise them or you don't. There's little gray area Once you surrender a right to privacy in something it's virtually impossible to claw back.
Speaker 2:Just say whatever it is, kelsey, because I have no idea what you're talking about. They're kind of helping, okay. Yes, because I know what you're nearly doing. That makes me very. If you want to wait outside with the other officer, you can stay close, then we'll bring you back in Back with Jeffrey, Detective Bennett begins establishing a timeline for the past few days.
Speaker 1:The timeline starts out very normal, with Jeffrey talking about spending most of his weekend either working or hanging out with Kelsey. After leaving Kelsey's house early Monday morning, Jeffrey stopped by his grandparents' house to grab a few things before going to a nearby park where he slept in his car. Jeffrey's timeline seems to check out with the detective until he mentions something incredibly strange he found while getting gas on the way to the park. I've got the creep trip that once happened before I got to the park.
Speaker 2:I found something really interesting in there. What it was weird. They don't like them. I don't even know what is it. It was a gun. Okay, that quick trip right there at Maybury Road. It was behind it, it was going to knock a cigarette back there and kicked it. That was your gun. We picked it up and it was like, okay, well, can somebody lift it Free? I could sell it because I don't have a lot of money. So I was like, okay, I can sell it. Right, I was playing with it.
Speaker 1:This story about finding a gun behind a gas station is hard to believe. It's likely that Jeffrey obtained the gun in another way, but doesn't want to admit it.
Speaker 2:Can you tell me what it looked like? It was black and it was one of the really short ones, okay, like one that you hold in your hand or one that you prop on your shoulder. Not that Like one of the ones that, but not that big. No, okay, you don't call it any, it's the ones we're selling, okay, so more like he said it was black, right, so did it have the spin wheel thing on the side or did it have the top of that slide back? It pinched me. Okay, how did you pinch yourself? It pinched me a thing. Yeah, how did that happen? It got infected. I was playing with it. It went forward really fast. Oh, okay, so you got your pinky stuck in the little sliding part on the top. The third Now I've got it. Did it bleed? It did, but it's more effective right now.
Speaker 1:Oh. While discussing the gun, Geoffrey uses a lighter, more childlike tone as a way of making this whole story sound more innocent, as well as what sounds like an unusual accent. Using that childlike tone is a way for him to avoid answering questions and to avoid the seriousness of what's going on. He didn't always speak that way, only sometimes, which indicates that he might be being evasive and deceptive and trying to avoid the question. He also focuses on how the gun injured him in order to present himself as the victim and to distract Detective Bennett from assuming he had any ill intent with the weapon. Although she likely doesn't believe his story, Detective Bennett is making sure to appear empathetic to Geoffrey's extremely minor injury. By coming across as warm and understanding, she's able to build up a rapport with him and get him to readily answer her questions. He likely would shut down if Detective Bennett raised her voice or argued with him. Although she's doing a good job of appearing empathetic and understanding, it's clear something is wrong with Geoffrey.
Speaker 2:I need to left her house and headed for Grandma's house. Okay, so at that point we had a crime happened here in Roswell. I heard about it the next day from her mom. It's horrible. Okay, in a way, I think I want to even more of an update on that. And that's important, yeah, but it's horrible. You still have to drive by the location where the incident happened.
Speaker 1:I did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have your car on video, oh sure, driving by the incident location, when I have you pulling into the parking lot where the incident occurred. I have you getting out of your car and walking around a little bit. I have you walking towards where the incident occurred and I have you on video where the incident occurred. Oh, I mean why you were there when that happened. I was scared to say something to him. It was awful. It was like hurt and blood. Okay, okay, it was awful. It was awful. Okay, tell me what you saw. That's my own. I'm a little scared.
Speaker 1:As Detective Bennett gets more and more information out of Jeffrey, we see him revert back into the fetal position he was in at the beginning of the interrogation. You'll notice that Jeffrey loosens up when they're talking about less stressful things. He also once again changes his voice to sound high pitched. It's clear that he's panicking.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Well, it's obvious that Jeffrey was caught lying about going to the gas station. It can be hard to determine if he is intentionally lying, since he appears to be in the midst of a psychotic episode. While Jeffrey may be able to effectively communicate with the detective during this episode, that doesn't mean he's in his right mind. Despite this, detective Bennett questions Jeffrey about the murder weapon, and the lies continue to add up.
Speaker 2:Okay, I don't believe that you ever found a gun behind the QT, because the employees hang out behind the QT and that's where they smoke their cigarettes and take their breaks.
Speaker 2:So, there was a gun laying with bullets in a bag in a cave. I'm pretty sure that one of the employees would have been able to see it. It's lit back there, yes, but how do you know if they actually thought of it A handgun in a bag with bullets in a case you don't think they would have seen it? No, where did the gun come from?
Speaker 1:The more Detective Bennett questions Jeffrey about his actions after finding the bodies, the more tangled he gets in his own conflicting stories. Detective Bennett has made it clear that she doesn't believe Jeffrey's story about finding the murder weapon. What Jeffrey doesn't know is that Detective Bennett already knows the real story behind how he got the weapon. On Monday afternoon, less than 12 hours after the murders had taken place, Jeffrey's grandfather reported that his six-hour pistol had been stolen, and the description of that gun matched the one Jeffrey claimed to find behind the gas station.
Speaker 2:Your grandfather's stolen gun is going to be in the back of your car, isn't it? We already talked about the gun. I think that you're being dishonest about where it came from. So when I go and get the video from behind Quicktrip on the night you said you found the gun you're going to be picking up a bag, taking the gun out, fracking the slide, popping a bullet out, picking the bullet up, putting it back in the magazine, putting it back in the gun and then stick it into your trunk or in a bag in the back of your car. It's not the way that it happened. We think so.
Speaker 1:Here Detective Bennett is using something known as a bait question. If Jeffrey is being honest about how he obtained the gun, then he should be confident that the security footage will confirm he found the gun behind the gas station. However, he gave a weak and non-committal response to the question, confirming that he's being deceptive about where he got the gun.
Speaker 2:You don't know his name. Who? Who's name? The man in the box? Who's name? The guy? I gave it to the guy. You gave it to the guy. You gave what to the guy the man. He said he wanted to practice. Okay, he said he wanted to practice. Did he give the guy the chopper? No, no, no. Did you give the guy a chopper? You don't know his name. Tell me what it looks like. All I know is Matt. His name is Matt. When did he give him the gun? A week ago? He didn't find it. A week ago. He told me he found it on Sunday night. It's only two Wednesdays. What's the do you receive with credit for this?
Speaker 1:It's clear that Jeffrey has some confusion surrounding dates and times likely caused by his psychotic episode. However, the police now have a new lead to investigate in the form of this mysterious Matt. Determined to get the whole truth from Jeffrey, detective Bennett tries one last technique before ending the interrogation she pulls out photos of the victims taken at the crime scene and forces Jeffrey to face his actions.
Speaker 2:What if somebody did this to Kelsey, didn't want, didn't want? What would you want to happen to the person that did this to Kelsey If this was Kelsey's picture? And they shot her and they laid her out naked on the ground and they spread her legs open and they touched her? What happens to that person? It does that. It wouldn't like everything. You wouldn't like it. What would you do to that person? What should I do to that person as a police officer? I don't know what should happen to that person?
Speaker 2:Bad. What is bad? Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, just bad, just bad, bad, bad. How much do you look at her? Hmm, just looking at her in the daylight. You didn't get to see her in the daylight.
Speaker 1:This is a technique known as a punishment question. Someone who's being honest is more likely to respond with a strong punishment that fits the crime, whereas a guilty individual may try to dodge the question or suggest a lesser punishment. In Jeffrey's case, he appears to be highly distressed and unable to suggest anything other than bad. Realizing that Jeffrey is too upset to give any more useful information, Detective Bennett ends the interrogation. With Jeffrey's interrogation completed, all eyes are on Kelsey. A new detective comes into her room to continue her interview.
Speaker 2:I really don't think that you've done anything wrong, okay, but I think you know a lot more information than you tell us and I'm just being honest with you and here's what I'm going to say to you. You're a young lady. You got your life ahead of you, okay, I want you to be able to be open with me. You're not under arrest, you understand. You've been helping us. I have no reason to believe that you're nothing more than helping us, but I can't wait or find out something happened or that you knew of something and you didn't tell me. Do you understand that? Yeah, then you're culpable and you're accountable. Oh, thank you, you're welcome. It comes into me kind of personal. I go out and I can betray. I don't like betraying people in a way I understand.
Speaker 1:Kelsey knows that revealing intimate details about Jeffrey, such as his mental and emotional problems, could incriminate him. It seems that she may need more confirmation about the severity of Jeffrey's actions before she's comfortable giving details. Additionally, kelsey clearly doesn't understand what the detective is implying when he tells her that she is culpable and accountable. She appears to take it as a compliment, when actually he's saying that if he finds out she's hiding something, she'll be held accountable by the law and possibly face legal consequences. The detective should take a moment here to explain a statement. He should also use caution going forward and make sure that he explicitly says what he means in simple terms, so that he can be sure Kelsey understands.
Speaker 2:Has he given you or told you about anything that he's done, or he's a link that would be, in your eyes, shocking. No, no, I do. All right, so here's what the deal is. You know, I told you they sent me an oldest family of schools. You just lied to me. No again, okay, okay again. That was the way the story goes. Yeah, that's not just a look away and I can't describe everything I've been doing for a long time. Okay, all I can tell you is I'm trying to remove you from any kind of association. If you give me deception and I know you're lying to me then I have no alternative than to put you over here, as opposed to over here.
Speaker 1:We know that it's a common misconception that eye contact is indicative of honesty. However, people will typically look to the side periodically as they're considering what is being said or how to best respond to something. This is all a normal part of honest communication. In fact, sustained eye contact can often mean the opposite, as individuals are being deceptive will maintain eye contact in order to thoroughly search the person's face for signs of belief or disbelief, so they can quickly adjust their story to fit the reactions of the individual they're trying to manipulate. Kelsey could also have looked to the side because she's hard of hearing and is trying to figure out what the detective said, or even is thinking.
Speaker 2:If I kept you over here just because you have an hour. Just something to tell you. Listen, you're trying to convince me now. No, not me, you're trying to convince me. Okay, I had your appointment three times. Okay, when was that? About three weeks ago, okay, well, that's not the. How did you try to convince me? With what method? He had a, a gun, a gun. Think of it. He had what. Think of it, the more he thought it, the more he'd need. He thought he'd be in pain too. Okay, and he took three of them and he would mess up for a while, couldn't remember anything for about a week. Okay, did that? No, not good thing, I know. Okay, okay, so did you call a rescue? She was taking my costume. Now, you know why did it? Well, she was reviving three times with CPR and you didn't call an ambulance. I was in her teenager.
Speaker 1:Maya. Attempts to take one's own life are a major red flag of a number of mental health disorders, including an active psychotic episode. It's a clear sign that Jeffries mental state was rapidly decompensating. This information also gives insight into the nature of Kelsey and Jeffries' relationship. It appears that Kelsey takes on a caregiver role, as evidenced by the fact that she revived him three times and helped keep the attempt a secret so that she could treat the issues herself. Romantic partners will often take on this caregiver role when they want to hang on to a relationship while their partner is struggling with something that could threaten the relationship, such as Jeffrey's erratic behavior. Kelsey may also enjoy the feeling of usefulness and being needed that she gets from having Jeffrey be dependent on her.
Speaker 2:You're safe here. This is a safer, this is a safe space. I told you, if you tell me the truth, because later, if I find out something different, it's different and I don't call you anymore, I don't talk to you anymore. I'm trying to, I'm trying to put you over here. I'm sorry you had to see that. I know it bothered you, right? Didn't bother you to see me like that? I don't know, didn't bother me too. But at the end of the day, I've asked you three very, very quick questions and you were deceptive from two out of the three and you can.
Speaker 2:I understand what you're saying and you can say you weren't. I understand it bothered you, I get it. What bothered me? In fact, you think that I know it's something that was shocking. The only thing that I know is that if one of you went through an episode and I had to pin him down, I thought you were going to, so he had to told you that he's hurt anybody recently. No, he hasn't. He didn't with anyone. He never said he hurt anybody. No, he never said that he did something that you never do anything. It's. We're taking no medicine. Don't be so easy. I thought you were fine after a while.
Speaker 1:Kelsey is using open palm gestures here. This is a nonverbal indicator of a lack of confidence, and it's interesting that she makes this gesture while saying that she thought he thought he was fine after a while. It implies that she may not be sure about this statement.
Speaker 2:He's going to be in an episode and trying to get him out of that. Alright, tell him he's down here. I need you way down here. Okay, he's alive now. Right, you revive him. He's safe. Alright, we'll go to the. Let's back up a little bit.
Speaker 1:The way the detective is speaking with Kelsey could be detrimental to get information out of her. When conducting a police interview, it's important for detectives to ask one question at a time and pause to let the other person answer. The detective asks a question here but then doesn't give her a chance to respond.
Speaker 2:He's alive. Now, right, you revive him, he's safe.
Speaker 1:The best questions during an interrogation are short, simple and straightforward. In the read technique, a popular method of interrogation, investigators are trained to do 20% of the talking, while the interview subject should be doing 80% of the talking. The detective also downplays Kelsey's feelings by saying she was bothered by Jeffrey's attempt to take his own life. Kelsey and the detective soon come to a head again.
Speaker 2:So you're positive, you're 100% positive, that you're telling the truth that he had no, no vengeance, no anger, no, no, nothing towards anybody. But Basically, yeah, basically doesn't mean, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:We might normally say that her saying basically is a qualifier statement, but at the same time she's young and has at least one disability that affects communication as well. This detective isn't exactly doing a great job of establishing or maintaining a report. To keep her talking comfortably, she may be feeling pressured to provide answers. The likely truth is that she may not know the answer to the question but is afraid of saying that since it hasn't gone over well in her interview up to this point.
Speaker 2:You need to tell me, baby. I don't know why, hey Jordan, I was back up. Hold on a second. I'm sorry I do not like to interrupt me. Okay, that's fine. I don't like it when you're deceptive. So here we go, I'm going to back up and then I've got to go because I've got, I'm going to be called.
Speaker 1:His response to her, saying she thought he was disrespectful, is the perfect example of a damaging power struggle. Interrupting may be more disrespectful to her than most, because if she relies on lip reading to help her understand what the detective is saying, then him talking while she's talking doesn't allow her the ability to focus and understand what he's saying. This in turn leads to more communication issues.
Speaker 2:We can't move into it right. I'm trying to get it down because I don't know what to do. Deep breath, okay, I'm almost done with this interview and I'm going to leave. Your mom's a sweet woman, in my opinion. You just had a bad relationship. I think you were trying to find something good in him. You said he's violent, he's got these things going on. You were trying to help him. I get it. Don't lie to me. He's talked to you and he's talked to you, and I know he's talked to you. I can't tell you how I know that. Okay, but I know he's talked to you and I've been waiting for you to talk to me about it.
Speaker 1:But if you're not going to talk to me about it. I don't know what.
Speaker 2:Wow, you're talking about what?
Speaker 1:He's talking about it.
Speaker 2:I don't need your hands, I don't need all that. We're just talking. We're two adults. We're two adults. I don't know what he's talking about. I don't need your hands. I mean, if you, we need to get rid of him. I understand but he's talked to you about people that he doesn't like or people that you would like to hurt.
Speaker 1:Kelsey emphasizes her words with her hands and it all matches up, indicating that she doesn't have a brain-body conflict and is highly likely being honest. She uses a lot of illustrators to emphasize her words in other ways. It may seem excessive, but her emotions are very high, so it matches her mental state quite clearly. The detective is far too confident and has now caused Kelsey so much distress that she has likely lost all trust in him. She might feel that the detective is just playing games with her, or she might feel frustrated that no matter how forthcoming she is, he will still doubt her honesty, Especially since Kelsey has given all indications of a person responding honestly.
Speaker 2:Yes, he has. He never told me what I heard. Never, that's it. He told me what he thought I said I didn't mean it. I don't know what he was talking about. Oh my God, I don't know Anybody sugar.
Speaker 1:Kelsey's heated reaction to being told she's lying is actually indicative of her being honest. Many truthful people will react with a strong tone of voice or even become hostile or angry when they're wrongfully accused of something. It's understandable that Kelsey's patience with the detective might be running thin at this point, because she's divulging sensitive and painful information while being repeatedly told she's deceptive. It would be in the detective's best interest to maintain a good relationship with Kelsey if he wants her to trust him with any other secrets she may have about Jeffrey. The detective may also be making this interview unintentionally harder for himself when he tells Kelsey not to move her hands around.
Speaker 2:Yes, you go. I don't need your hands, I don't need them, we're just talking.
Speaker 1:I'm telling the interviewee to limit body language. The detective is limiting expressive cues that may actually be of use in the interrogation. With the detective questioning her on Jeffrey's recent behavior and aggression, Kelsey is able to deduce that they suspect he's involved in the public's murders.
Speaker 2:If he's over here and there's some culpability and some big things going on right here, I don't want to move you into that chair. It's really that simple. I don't want to put you in that safe area. I'm telling you no. Why would you say that it's the only big thing going around? And we're not about to go? It's not the only thing. Why would you say that you need to be honest with me? You need to be honest with me right now, Instead of it happening on Sunday. You need to be honest with me. That's what you need to be. You're making it sound like you did it. You're making it sound like it. That's why I asked. That's why I asked you if that was it, because I don't know. If it's. How do you know about the killer, sir? My mom told me. My mom told me what they wanted. What killers would she refer to? The ones behind?
Speaker 2:the public, the ones behind the public. So why would you think your boyfriend would be anything as soon as you knew of that? To be honest, I don't know.
Speaker 1:As Kelsey says. To be honest, I don't know. She makes very intense eye contact with the detective, as if she's trying to see if he believes her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you do. No, I don't. Okay, all right, yes, please, please. And you need to start talking to me because I've got three houses waiting on me. I'm done. I have more information than you think I have. I don't know. Okay, where did he went? Please don't speak for me. Please don't speak for me. They talked to me.
Speaker 1:Interestingly, Kelsey goes into the confession pose leaning forward with her hands in her lap, right before the detective pushes her again. If he had sat with the silence for a minute, she may have opened up at that point instead of freaking out. This is why, when conducting interviews, it's so important to pay attention to nonverbal cues and to be able to sit with silence and let the person think. All the detective did was potentially delay the truth from coming out. Interviews should be conducted in a non-accusatory and non-confrontational manner. Interviews should only be confrontational when detectives have evidence someone was involved in a crime, and then the interview will switch to an interrogation style. However, this detective is choosing to be impatient and not empathetic. He's trying to use her own words against her and make it sound like her question is proof of Jeffrey's plans. This is just one example of why young or vulnerable individuals should have a parent and or lawyer or lawyer present with them during questioning.
Speaker 2:Okay, no, listen to me though. Okay, you've got to be truthful with these policemen, okay? No, I know. Okay, then you guys have to tell me everything they want to know. Okay, can you tell me this, jeffrey? It's an one person, but I don't know who they are. This is very important, okay, because I'm just scared now. You're scared of me, you know? Listen, I'm not scared for you.
Speaker 2:You're fine, I'm fine, don't say anything. I don't know who they are. I'm not scared. I'm not scared. Calm down, cut it out, don't be angry. Okay, and you've told the truth about everything that happened? Because they feel like you're not telling a truth about it? I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1:When the detective comes back into the room, Kelsey tells him what she can about Jeffrey's recent violent behavior.
Speaker 2:She uh seen no one coming on. He uh one said nothing to him coming on and I stayed with him which was always a kind of trouble with him and he sat up like and he didn't even say a dime because he thought he was gonna hurt someone.
Speaker 1:This is, of course, an obvious red flag that Jeffrey was dangerous. Sadly, Kelsey thought she was taking care of Jeffrey by just taking the knife away, but in truth he would have needed hospitalized care to stop his violence and aggression from escalating even further. Back with Detective Bennett, Jeffrey has requested to speak with her again, and this time he's promising to tell her the whole truth.
Speaker 2:What decisions that went up to them. Steve, are the bad ones they have. What does the team respect her Pretty much. Who, kelsey? Protect her? Okay, tell me about how you were protecting Kelsey. There was a guy. Another guy, okay, he made me drive around and the high school made me drive past and around Past where? Well, on the Frostwell High School. Okay, he told me that the group was parked in that area and he made me drive past her car. Then I got to the exit. He got an act. I said where are you going? I said you know you're business. So he told me to drive there. Then walked her back. Okay, so I parked and then a little while later, her car cashed through with his car. Okay, then I go back there. Okay, so where did you go first? Okay, he made me show him my driver's license and he threatened me, threatened my family, which was Kelsey.
Speaker 1:Okay, whensoft was ed a little. He told me that Beth wasn't with them, that he didn't know how to cope. All right, okay, so then Jerry was sent into fighting.
Speaker 2:A couple of years ago, jerry began ayan sortir and I asked for updates on the state of Tol новые and why Matt is sc SUBSCRI or something of the sort. Okay, I sort the little marijuana with him a couple of times, okay, and did you get me to have a party or a work or how did you end up meeting? It was a while back. He was meeting with Chelsea first met, okay, and you said that was sometime in March, right, yes, in the March or something March 7th, when we first met, the beginning of March, okay, and it was him and the other person in a car that was parked next to hers, so they were gathering and everything.
Speaker 2:And we ended up meeting and going into my car and we were smoking marijuana and that she got pissed at me. We were dating together. Then we just met, okay, so you're not even dating yet. Okay, and she got pissed at me because I left her for two strange minutes. So where were you, where were you all? In the park In Michael's parking lot, okay, the one you're in an on-tall, or where you were.
Speaker 1:In the brothel.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Notice how quickly his emotions and voice change. He quickly shifts from panic mode and freaking out to laughing about something else. This is another indication that he's in the midst of a mental breakdown. By giving Detective Bennett a detailed description of first meeting Matt in a Michael's parking lot a story that Kelsey herself could back up he's making his explanation more and more plausible. Additionally, the police have records of Jeffery's phone contacts and have seen that he does have a contact saved as Matt, meaning they may now have a solid lead on another suspect. After telling the detective more about meeting and hanging out with Matt, jeffery tells her about running into him on the night of the murders.
Speaker 2:Where did you end up seeing him that night? It was over by Laughham, or what we call Laughham Waffle House. Okay, so yesterday you told me that you and Kelsey hung out around the house. You didn't tell me about Waffle House, because that's where I went right after I left. Okay, so you went over to Waffle House after you left Kelsey's house. I don't want to. I'm trying to protect her. I don't care about her. I can understand that. I don't want to be there for her. I don't want to be there for her. I don't want to be there for her. So tell me about the Waffle House. Were you going over there to eat or were you going over there to meet him? No, it wasn't going to be there. I just told her that she was a guy. I basically talked to the guy. So then, how did you encounter Matt?
Speaker 1:I was driving away.
Speaker 2:I was driving away, I was driving away, I was driving away. So it was a guy.
Speaker 1:I was driving away. I was driving away. Did you know that I was a guy I don't know? And pull up security tapes from surrounding businesses and double check Jeffrey's story.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm gonna go this way over here. He was right on the corner right here, okay, and said, hey, how's it going? Cause? I stopped all the way down and I was like, hey, nothing much, can I get a ride? And I was like I bet you, okay. And then he I thought he was in my sky, you know, uh-huh, never really met, I guess. So where did you guys go? After you picked him up? She told me that that she and this girl were that he really liked really loud down this ground, ha. But I understand.
Speaker 2:I looked up sitting on the rear, driving to down this way Towards Roswell, back this way, and she said, oh, I'm really loving this girl, she's lovely. I gotta go meet her tonight. And yes, I see my daughter's like look why, why? And like just wanna see her. I mean like not because you're horrible, I'm sure. So I started and he says I'm good, you know I had her name, okay, okay, what do you mean? You have my name Right, I'm like you're gonna do what I say and that's it, okay. And he starts into my family and I realized that me, that's my name, my stuff. Then now he has could you, I'll see this has hers. Now he has her family, her parents, her brothers, their all bad.
Speaker 2:I'm like, okay, don't do anything to them. Just what do you want me to do? I'm like, just drive to Roswell High school and drive around. There's this girl there I'm supposed to be meeting. So he drives, we drive and the car's there, the girls are, the girls go. Okay, they go, and he says, well, she's in there, so just let me out on the corner and then park over the public.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I did, and I don't know where he went. Okay, he told me that I was going to do whatever he told me to do, but hurt my hair. Okay, and what else did he tell you to do? He told me what did he say? I mean to know the words that he said. He said, I mean to know the words that he said he just wanted to take it to my room, I know. So all of them came through. I know he was threatening everyone. He just stood there. Do you remember the words that he said? Can you tell me the words that he said to you? He said he's a bitch and I got to die. He's talking about the girl from the car. Okay, he said if you don't do it now, shoot her. She left her and I'll shoot everybody down. Okay, he said come on, shoot my wife. You shouldn't see his eyes, Okay.
Speaker 1:With this, the police have at least a tentative motive for Jeffrey, While Jeffrey may not have known either of the victims. Matt was supposedly having some sort of lover's quarrel with Natalie Henderson. As some of the answers begin to fall into place for the detectives, there are still plenty of questions about the murders. They still need answered.
Speaker 2:Where did the gun come from? Your grandpa's done.
Speaker 1:At long last, jeffrey admits that the gas station story was a lie and he did in fact steal the gun from his grandfather. Jeffrey admitting to this shows Detective Bennett that he genuinely wants to tell her the truth this time around. Finally, jeffrey gives Detective Bennett details on how he killed his victims.
Speaker 2:And so he said go, go now, basically you go and get him. And you went over and he said you open the door, which?
Speaker 1:door.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which door did you open?
Speaker 2:The left side, the left side door. So we'll look right behind the driver's seat. Okay, who got out of the car first? He did. He said what did you say to them when you opened the door? I said he had act right now. Okay, and he had act.
Speaker 2:They hesitated and he was giving a patient like it's so yeah, and so, but he's still yelling. Yes, he yelled over the hand Okay, and I'm mentioning my wife, family, my wife. So Come on, hurry up, your family's gonna get it soon. Okay, you, okay, okay. So you told him to get out and the guy gets out. And then what Did you have to run out of your pocket at that point? Okay, so, while he's yelling and you have the boy out, what is the girl doing? She's coming out, she's coming out too. So she come out the same door. So they both come out the same way.
Speaker 2:I was just going to like hit them a couple times. I said that would help, yeah, but I mean he told me I thought he was satisfying him. Yes, maybe if I hit the guy once, then maybe that would help. And then did you get in? Yes, okay, what did you get him with? I said I think it's with the gun. With the gun, hopefully that'd be enough. Yeah, is that enough? No, no, it's almost an hour. Okay, where did you get him with the gun In the head, in the head, in the head, and what? Because maybe that would satisfy him. So where did that money go? Like he could forget all about it. Yeah, where did what happened to him when you hit him with the gun? He spent a lot of time. He fell out of the car. Okay, did you ever hit the girl? Was that the only time that you hit the boy and he told you that wasn't good enough that it wasn't gonna work.
Speaker 2:So did the boy get up from the ground? Yes, and then what did the boy do? He was basically yelling. He was starting to come at me and I looked back and he wasn't gonna do anything. He kept on yelling to me and I went F*** crazy in his head, f***. And next thing, I know, looking around, next thing I know. Well, look what happened. He's on the ground.
Speaker 2:Where was the girl when the boy was coming at you? She was over by her car. She was by the car and what was she doing? Was she saying anything? She was yelling at me too. What was she yelling? She was yelling. What the F***? Why did you do that? I don't know. He was telling me too. She looked over there and saw him and he kill her, kill her, kill her. Remember the F***ing woman? So, okay, she said why are you doing this? She kind of gasped when she saw him. Yeah, then then he was just telling me so much about my family and I was like okay, forever, okay, could you hear the phone For her? Where were you when you heard the phone for her? I was standing over by, in between the cars, in between the cars. Then she was by her car. Okay, do you remember how she fell down? Did she fall down backwards or did she fall down forwards? Just didn't get it. Okay, those hands down like that, okay.
Speaker 1:Following his detailed confession, Jeffrey admits to stealing Natalie Henderson's credit card and using it at a nearby gas station. By making a full confession, Jeffrey can get things over with more quickly. But making any confession is rarely of any value to a suspect. The only time it might help is if the alleged crime is more serious than the actual crime, at which point details may mitigate how the crime is actually charged. However, a decision to take that route would only be something undertaken after an in-depth consultation with a lawyer. After gathering a few more details from Jeffrey, Detective Bennett ends this interview with far more answers than she was able to get last time. However, there's still one more surprise in store for detectives. While Kelsey may not have known anything about Jeffrey's murders, she did provide the police with the most key piece of evidence.
Speaker 2:It has schizophrenia.
Speaker 1:Schizophrenia is a serious condition in which someone interprets their reality in an abnormal way. This can include seeing hallucinations, hearing voices that aren't there and extremely disordered thinking.
Speaker 2:Keep repeating the hate crime that's done, that you can't really believe that. You can't tell me that you would never do that, but being more human-making, the voices While most individuals who are diagnosed with schizophrenia do not commit acts of violence.
Speaker 1:They are at a higher risk for committing violence compared to the general population. One study even shows that those with schizophrenia who do act violently are more likely to have higher levels of trauma from their child, such as the trauma Jeffrey alleged he experienced.
Speaker 2:No, no medications Taking on our medication right now.
Speaker 1:No, please rest with me, yes, when a person with a serious and persistent illness, such as schizophrenia, stops taking their medication, the consequences can be serious or even fatal. According to his doctor, jeffrey would experience extreme hallucinations and paranoia while not on his medication. This included seeing messages from God on TV and believing that there were invisible cameras spying on him at all times. With all of this information in mind, the police reviewed their CCTV footage from the night of the murders and made a shocking discovery Matt, the supposed mastermind behind this whole crime, wasn't real.
Speaker 2:I heard this shot. There was nobody else in that parking lot. I heard it. So some invisible person shot them while you were walking towards them. I was like, hey, why do you need to wear a mask? You were wearing a mask. The mask is in the back of your car right now. I saw it this morning, the view from that mask. I was scared the girls would wake her. I was like what did you? See, did you think the mask was not going to have?
Speaker 1:him kill you. If there's some crazy person back there with a gun you thought you could put a little plastic Halloween mask on your face and you'd be okay.
Speaker 2:That's the most really illicit thing I have ever heard. Jeffrey, what's going on? What did you do? What did you do? What did you do without doing anything? But, no, you didn't do anything. Yes, you did. No, I didn't. What's going on? Don't leave my life alone, please, please.
Speaker 1:Typically, if a suspect comes up with a wild story such as being forced to kill by a man no one else can see, we can assume that they are feigning mental illness because they believe that in doing so they could avoid getting charged for the crime. However, jeffrey's case is different, because we know the details of his illness. We know he came off of his medication and was displaying red flags indicative of severe mental and emotional decompensation, including increased anger, homicidal thoughts and attempting to take his own life. Knowing this, there is a good chance. Jeffrey genuinely believes this story about Matt To him.
Speaker 1:Matt is real and that night at Publix was a result of Jeffrey acting out of fear from Matt's threats. While this certainly doesn't excuse Jeffrey's horrific actions, it does help us understand why two innocent teenagers lost their lives that night. Following his confession, jeffrey was treated and evaluated by medical professionals until he was fit enough to stand trial. He then entered into a guilty but mentally ill plea and on May 17, 2017, he was given a life sentence without the possibility of parole. There hasn't been much information on Jeffrey's senses and incarceration. However, on August 11, 2017, he was somehow able to post a selfie to his Instagram account from prison. The photo was taken down soon after authorities were notified about its posting, and no information was ever released about how or why Jeffrey posted the image.