thru the pinard Podcast
a conversational podcast with @Academic_Liz with midwives & other birth professionals about their studies/ research & how it's changing our practice globally - email thruthepinard@gmail.com
thru the pinard Podcast
Ep 80 Melanie Jackson on birthing outside the system, balancing research, midwifery, and entrepreneurship
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Ep 80 (ibit.ly/Re5V) Melanie Jackson on birthing outside the system, balancing research, midwifery, and entrepreneurship
@PhDMidwives #MidTwitter #research #midwifery @westernsydneyu @hannahdahlen @VirginiaSchmie1
https://www.melaniethemidwife.com/
Great Birth Rebellion podcast
Ever wondered how the worlds of naturopathy and midwifery intersect? Join us for an enlightening episode where we promise you'll uncover the inspirational journey of Melanie Jackson. From her roots as a naturopath to becoming a dedicated midwife and researcher, Melanie shares her unique perspective on pregnancy and birth, influenced by pivotal experiences and the wisdom of Ina May Gaskin’s “Spiritual Midwifery.” Discover how her holistic approach complements her midwifery practice and the challenges she faced reconciling these philosophies within hospital settings.
Melanie's story is a testament to resilience and passion. Learn about her academic evolution, from a nursing degree at Sydney University to her unexpected dive into postgraduate research under the mentorship of Hannah Dahlen. Melanie's commitment to physiological birth led her to become a private midwife and eventually pursue a PhD. Hear about the intricate balance she maintained while managing her PhD and midwifery work, the importance of mental health, and the support systems that kept her grounded through it all.
This episode also sheds light on the systemic issues within maternity care, driving women towards alternative birthing options. Melanie offers insightful reflections on conducting unbiased research in emotionally charged contexts and discusses her transition from private midwifery to mentoring aspiring midwives. Finally, get a glimpse into how she balances her dynamic life, including entrepreneurship, family, and community involvement, illustrating how support and a flexible work model have enabled her to thrive.
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The aim is for this to be a fortnightly podcast with extra episodes thrown in
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Journey Into Midwifery and Research
Speaker 1Thank you for joining me. As per usual. Can you introduce yourself, please?
Speaker 2Yes, so my name's Dr Melanie Jackson. I currently work as a clinical private midwife but also as a researcher sort of an independent researcher now I would consider myself, because my main role is as the podcast host on the Great Birth Rebellion podcast. And yeah, I've been a midwife for 16 years and that whole time I've worked in private practice and also in research roles and a little bit with the Australian College of Midwives. Oh, there's a lot. Yeah, I've got two kids. They were both born at home. We now also they're still at home because we homeschool them and yeah, so I'm predominantly working as a private midwife but also very much an entrepreneurial midwife.
Speaker 1Which I think is becoming more common when you're looking at life in general. But anyway, before we get to the fun stuff of today, let's roll it right back to 16 years ago. So what made you get into midwifery?
Speaker 2Yep, so I first qualified as a naturopath. So I did a bachelor of health science in naturopathy, which is all about natural medicine and nutrition and homeopathy and massage and home and herbs and all that kind of thing. So so that was at Western City University and so I thought that's what I'm going to do with my life. I'm going to focus on natural health and help people get healthy through all these different avenues. And then pretty quickly it became obvious that a lot of my clientele were women. They were in their childbearing years and that I had very little understanding of pregnancy and postpartum or even birth. And then they were in their childbearing years and that I had very little understanding of pregnancy and postpartum or even and birth. And then they were also bringing their children, wondering if I could help them. And so I thought you know, I really need to get a better qualification, a better understanding of women's bodies and what they go through. And where can I find that education? And so in my searching found midwifery and I didn't really know what a midwife was or anything like that. And so then I just started investigating and sleuthing about and calling universities and reading, and in the meantime a friend of mine said hey, I know that you're getting interested in midwifery. I'm about to have a home birth, would you like to come? And I know I was like yeah, I mean, I don't know anything about this, but 100% I can come and and offer what I can. And I just really took that assignment seriously and so I just started reading whatever I could find. So while she was pregnant, I actually ended up registering into a master's of nursing program which was going to take two years, and then I was going to do a graduate diploma of midwifery because the at that time there was a bachelor of midwifery. Yeah, but they weren't going to give me any recognition for prior learning because I already had a health science degree and a bachelor. And so I thought well, why would I read? Why would I do another bachelor all over again? Maybe I could do a post-grad nursing for two years, which I I did. It was mostly coursework. I am a registered nurse, but I've never really worked in that capacity. And so then went on, by three years I had the master's in nursing and a graduate diploma in midwifery.
Speaker 2And so while I was doing nursing, my whole intention was to be a midwife. So I would just empty the shelves of midwifery books in the library and really focused every assignment on maternity care, on women, on baby you know, and, yeah, very little interest in actual nursing because they are completely different. And so, yeah, it was during that time that my friend gave birth and in preparation for her birth I read Ina May Gaskin's Spiritual Midwifery and that's the gateway drug to, you know, physiological, like a philosophy of physiological birth. So that just set me on a path, the fact that she invited me.
Speaker 2And then I was interested in learning about midwifery and birth for her sake, but then also wanting to really add value to the work I was doing as a naturopath. So for quite a few years I actually worked as a naturopath and as a midwife, because naturopathy was my first intention. But very quickly midwifery took over and the clients were midwifery took over and it clients were midwifery took over and it became obvious that I couldn't maintain the professional development for naturopathy and the insurance and that as well as midwifery. So I chose midwifery and so grateful for that. I still always use the skills and knowledge that I learned as a naturopath to help women, but now it's very much that I'm a midwife, not a naturopath and they don't.
Speaker 1They are quite complementary, they are kind of. They work that beautifully hand in hand well, it's.
Speaker 2It's all about looking after well people. Philosophically, naturopathy and midwifery are along the same philosophical spectrum. They're not coming at things from a medical model. It's an understanding that the body is capable and powerful of healing and functioning, given the right environment and the right support. So that aligned much nicer than the nursing and midwifery degrees. And it also set me up for complete what am I going to call it?
Speaker 2It set me up to completely misunderstand what was expected of me in a hospital setting as a midwife. Oh yeah, yep. And so I assumed, because at university we get taught you know, these are well women, they're just having babies, they're not sick, they're just having babies and they're in a state of wellness. And that's the same philosophy that you come at. Treating people as a naturopath is these are people capable of being well, they've come to you with something, but their body is strong and can function if you give it what it needs. Similar philosophies.
Birthing Outside the System
Speaker 2And so I went in the hospital thinking I'm going to support women to have babies. They're well. And then I was confronted with this completely medical model and a medical approach to birth and I genuinely couldn't understand why they were asking me to do certain things to women in in the situation of birth. So I've just fumbled my way through my time as a student midwife, thoroughly confused as to why we were doing a lot of things. Um, yeah, did, but I did very well in midwifery in my university degree, um, and that's how I came to the PhD.
Speaker 1Like what was that? What was the gap between finishing your your midwifery kind of undergrad and then your PhD? What was it happening in between that time?
Speaker 2There wasn't a very big gap. So, by the time when I finished my nursing degree, I got approached by the university that was Sydney University to ask what, what are you going to do next? Like, yeah, as I look back at it now, I think they were headhunting me. Um, I said, oh, I'm going to be a midwife. See you later. I was out of there. They're like wait, come back. Oh, she's gone. Um, so, uh, then I did midwifery and a similar thing happened where, uh, at the end, you know, somebody said to somebody who taught me said what are you doing next? And I said well, I'm going to be a private midwife. That's what I'm doing next. And they said oh, have you considered postgraduate study? I said, oh, look, I've already got a master's. I'm not, I don't need to do anything else. I'm off and go to be a private midwife. And she said was, um, my lecturer? And she said to me I want you to go and have a talk to Hannah Darling. So at the time, hannah Darling had, just as I was, leaving Western Sydney University, she just started there. Oh, wow, yeah. So that was what I finished in 2009 midwifery in 2009,. Midwifery in 2009. I was 24 years old at that time.
Speaker 2And so she said look, I just want you to go and speak to Hannah because I think you should consider postgraduate research. And I went to Hannah. I said hey, am I male? And she said what are you here for? I said, look, I don't really know what I'm here for. But my lecturer said I should come and talk to you about postgraduate study. She said great, show me your transcript. So I showed her my midwifery transcript and she said you should definitely be doing something in the postgraduate space. And I said okay, what would I be doing? She said I think a PhD.
Speaker 2And I went back to my lecturer and I said oh my gosh, hannah Darlan said I should do a PhD. I don't even understand what that is. Yep. Then she said oh, you know it's this thing. And I said oh, I don't think that's me. I don't think I'm smart enough for that kind of thing. That's, but that's for the very, very clever people. Yeah, and I, and I remember she said to me Mel, have you seen the idiots that are doing PhDs? That's one way of putting it. She said have you seen the idiots doing PhDs? I was like I don't know anybody who's doing a PhD. I know nothing about this. So she said off, you go back to Hannah.
Speaker 2So I went back to Hannah. I said, okay, yeah, I would like to do a PhD. How do we make this happen? So, filled in the forms, did all the things. Got very excited that everybody had this belief that I was capable. And the university said, no, can't get you into the PhD program. You haven't really got enough under your belt that would give you enough points to get into this PhD program. Whether or not you're capable is irrelevant, it's this point system.
Speaker 2And so Hannah said okay, what we're going to do is you're going to work for me as my research assistant for a whole year. I'm going to teach you everything you need to know. You're going to do research for me. Fill in all the forms, do all the things. She taught me how to interview people, how to do field research, how to write papers, how to analyze field research, how to write papers, how to analyze and gosh when I think back. She literally gave me a table like a workspace in her office to do these things, and I remember thinking halfway through you know I was privy to all kinds of phone conversations and meetings that I thought should I be here?
Speaker 2And she just opened up her academic life to me to witness it, and one day I was showing her some findings that I'd been working on for our research project and she said wow, mel. She said you have got a research brain Like you are, just like she was. Was I remember her being blown away? And it was one of the first time that I, that I, it occurred to me that, um, I was capable of thinking academically because historically I, my, both my parents are migrants. Um, you know, english was their second language and through school I'd been put in the lower classes and into the ESL, the English as a second language classes, and just always really told that you know, not the sharpest tool. And so I kind of believed that.
Speaker 2And this was the kind of the times through my life where people were going, actually, you know, you've got, you've got some capacity. So I thought, right, how do I get into this PhD? So, through we published about two, we published two papers that year and I did all these research projects and I'd also started my own private practice. So I was working clinically as a private practice midwife and at the end of year I had enough points to reapply for the PhD, so much so that they also gave me a scholarship. Very nice, yes. So I never intended on doing a PhD.
Speaker 2As you had mentioned, a lot of the people who do PhDs are thinking they're on that path. It was only that people recognize something in me and encourage me to do it, and that I became curious about what that was, and so by that time, I was very passionate about home birth and physiological birth. And Hannah said right, it's time for you to pick a PhD topic and you better choose something that you love, because by the end you're going to hate it, yep, yep. So I kind of went okay, I went home and I had to think, and I had to think, and it was in the middle of the night that I was just lying there awake one night and birthing outside the system just came to me and I went that is it.
Speaker 2And the next day raining, to Hannah's office like Hannah, I've got it, I've got the topic, this is what we're going to do, we're going to do birthing outside the system. And she like clapped her hands and waved them in the air. She's like yes, yes, yes, yes, this is it. Go do it. The forms, that's what it's going to be, and so that's where it was. Birthing outside the system was the plan. I wanted to know what makes women choose things that are not considered appropriate in a mainstream maternity care. Why would they make those choices? And I thought I knew because, you know, I was in that world already, working with women who were having home births, and I had friends who'd had free births, and so I was aware of that culture and that that kind of decision making.
Speaker 1So how did you then balance your private practice with your? I assume you did a full-time study. It was full-time, yeah. So how did you find that balance? Or was it easier to balance because of the flexibility of time?
Speaker 2Well, both scenarios were very flexible. I didn't have children, I was 24. My husband was also working, so we could afford for me to kind of dabble and experiment in a lot of things without a massive financial repercussion. You know, we kind of had a small home and a small mortgage and he had a full-time job and I was making money as a private midwife. But also with the scholarship there was enough money. I recall not struggling, I mean we weren't like drowning in cash. So that opened up an opportunity for me to take on as many clients as I could manage, but not too many, so that I could still put a lot of time into the PhD.
Speaker 2But while I was doing the PhD, you know, hannah asked me one day how are you going?
Balancing PhD and Midwifery Work
Speaker 2I said, look, I'm thinking of actually starting a private midwifery group practice, because at that time time all the midwives were just very individual sole traders, kind of just using each other for support, and I had a thought to do an actual collaborative group practice. And I floated this with Hannah one day and she said I want in on that. And so before long Hannah and I were both working together in a midwifery capacity. So she started working as a private midwife with me and with two other midwives who we'd recruited to this, this cause, and so we were working on the PhD and research through the days and then going out to birth. You know when everything came up, so I don't recall there being lots of clashes, because a PhD journey is very self-directed and I could schedule most of my internatal and postnatal visits and I could schedule a lot of the work for the PhD. So it was just a balancing act and actually you're contractually obliged to only work one day a week when you've got a scholarship between the hours of nine to five, monday to Friday.
Speaker 2Yeah, correct yeah, so I saw my work as a midwife. I thought I could fit antennas and postnatals in one day if I'm careful about how many women I take on, and then births just kind of happen whenever they happen. Yeah, so it was quite manageable. Definitely my time was full, but I mean I didn't have any children, yeah and so, and my husband worked full time, so there was actually a lot of time to fill. You know, I was young and energetic, so I just used every single hour that I had, you know. So it would have been a stressful time, but I don't recall it that way.
Speaker 1So how did you maintain your mental health then? Was it because you had that flexibility and that way of changing and keeping your foot in with me free that that helped with your mental health? Or what were the things that you were doing to really keep yourself going?
Speaker 2health, or what were the things that you were doing to really keep yourself going? I'm very fortunate to not have any mental health history that was adverse, and so I came from a place of a, I guess, a lot like quite mental toughness I don't know how to really describe it.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah a lot of resilience.
Speaker 2I toughness I don't know how to really describe it. Yeah, yeah, a lot of resilience. I don't I don't struggle with any like with depression, anxiety or anything like that that, I would imagine takes up what people's a lot of people's time and energy in trying to manage, and so I feel really three steps ahead of the game just being in that position. So I'm so and that's not lost on me like I have people in my life who are really struggling with mental health and I see how much energy and time they have to put into it and I just think, wow, I think that's how I've managed this is that I don't have to think about that so much. At that time, though, I was exercising a lot, so really putting a lot of physical energy into that, and still now I put conscious effort, because I was a naturopath too, so I knew very well how to look after myself. So eating well, getting enough sleep, low sugar diet um, yeah, just focusing, and yeah, I don't know that I put. I mean I would have put conscious effort in.
Speaker 1I would have, because that was my whole job is consciously looking after yourself do you think that your relationship with Hannah as both a supervisor and as a colleague do you think that that actually helped because you were seeing and having more engagement with each other so you could have those ad hoc conversations if you were having stress or ideas that kind of came up, or did that hinder what you wanted? To keep the things separated?
Speaker 2Hannah was a brilliant and my other supervisor, virginia Schmeed, were brilliant supervisors. It occurred to me part way through that they were brilliant because I got to spend some time with other PhD candidates, some of which very rarely even got to meet their supervisor or found it hard to get any feedback, or you know, just their supervisors were absent. And Hannah and Virginia they set up weekly meetings for me. We would meet regularly Whenever there was something to check over. They would be waiting for me on things and I would send them over something. I remember sending them a huge document like thousands and thousands and thousands of words, and when I met with Hannah days after and Virginia it's as if they read every single word they'd given really specific feedback. They were so invested in my journey that and I only realized it when I'd spoken to the other PhD students that that was unusual.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I remember being at a meeting and one of another academic asking you know, is it appropriate that our supervisors have their name on our publications? How dare they? You know we're doing all this work, and I remember being absolutely mortified at a comment like that because I said to them of course they're working with us on this work, just because it was your idea and it's your PhD. This is still a collaborative journey. We're learning from them. They're putting so much input and everyone was a bit surprised at how I was talking and it occurred to me that that's because they had rubbish supervisors and then they felt bitter that their supervisors should get to put their name on things that they've, you know, toiled through. So it didn't feel hard at all.
Speaker 2It felt beautiful to work with Hannah, clinically and also academically. She always you know I always felt like an equal, but that she was generous with her time and really respectful in giving feedback. One of my traits is that I actually love feedback. I love to hear what could be improved, and I don't necessarily take that personally, which I think you need to do when you've got a PhD, because it's a massive learning journey. Oh, totally yeah, I think when you're doing a PhD PhD you get to the end and you go, oh okay, now I know how to do a PhD, let me do it again properly, can I? Yeah, and it's like you're almost now I know what I was supposed to do all those years, but that it's just a three-year learning journey.
Speaker 1um, yeah, well, there's quite often I've read that the PhD is the worst research that you'll ever do. Because it is that it is. It's the learning skills, the training wheels, and once you've got it, the training wheels come off and now you can go. It's not necessarily the whole of the interest area that you may want, or, if you're lucky enough, you can continue into it in the future, but yeah, it's the worst research you do but, yeah, it's the worst research you do.
Speaker 2Well, it teaches you how to research and how to read research papers, which is the skill now that I've taken into my work on the great birth rebellion, because what now I can do is read a paper, or I could read seven papers on a topic. I could tell you which of those papers was a good one yep, one was not a good one, which one was a good. Journal, and I can pick which ones I can use to write each podcast episode, but only because I did the PhD and it taught me about research method and how to decipher this kind of research speak. And so I think a PhD gives you the skills for your next step. It's just a ticket onto the train, really, as far as.
Speaker 1I'm concerned that recognition of on and skills. So, thinking back to your PhD now, what is something that still resonates with you or surprised you in doing your PhD?
Challenges in Research and Advocacy
Speaker 2the process of doing a PhD relies on you letting go of preconceived ideas. Yep, and that's not something that we routinely do in life is where you think to yourself okay, what are my preconceived ideas? How can I let go of them and look at a scenario with complete like, with no judgment, because I was doing this PhD as a private midwife who supports women's choice and just basically trusts and acknowledge that if a woman's making a choice, it's because she's thought about it and because you know, and, and then we should respect that choice. And so I had to let go of my preconceived ideas, because I was about to interview women who were choosing home birth after with with risk factors for either themselves or their babies, or that were free birthing, so they had no midwife or health care provider at their birth. And what I know about myself is that I personally wouldn't choose free birth and I don't fully understand the choice to free birth, in a sense that, as a midwife, I can see the things that midwives do and I find them valuable in certain situations, and it frightened me that not all women would have access to somebody who could help them in birth. So I had to let go of that Mm-hmm, in order to properly understand what the women were trying to tell me. And so now I am still good at when people tell me a story or tell me what they're thinking about a thing.
Speaker 2It's almost like you gather a skill to let go of your biases and your preconceived ideas with the intention to listen to what they're trying to tell you so that you can understand their perspective. Yeah, and so, having practiced that over and over and over again through the PhD, when you're interviewing somebody because I interviewed 20 women about their stories and then I had to look at the interviews again with an unbiased lens, and then I had to present my findings to my PhD supervisors and then ask them do you feel like I've applied any of my own biases here? And you know there was this constant checking process of why did I interpret it that way? And is that because of what I think or is that because that's what the woman said? So there was a lot of that.
Speaker 2So that's a life skill, but it's also a skill in research, and the topic of home birth and free birth is so emotionally charged that when I speak to other people about it, there's a lot of anger from one side or the other. There's confusion, there's disbelief, there's judgment oh my gosh, how could women do that? And other women you know like. You've got to respect our choices, and there becomes an inability for people to see any other way of doing birth, and so I think being passionate about a topic and being an advocate for a topic is a completely different thing to researching a topic. Oh, yes, yeah, so as a researcher, you could research any topic, and the, the method that I chose basically can be applied to any research topic, whether you know about it or not, and it should come out with an answer, and so that was really exciting, especially as a 20. What, by the time? I finished my PhD when I was 28.
Speaker 2So, yeah, I started it when I was 25, 24 and um for to have that skill in my 20s brilliant you know yeah, so I that it wasn't really the findings that surprised me, because what we found is that, ultimately, women will choose what they believe is best and safest, and there's a whole lot of reasoning for why they believe it's best and safest, which is something we teased out in the PhD.
Speaker 1I'm like, oh yeah, duh, that's not surprising, but what you the skills that you develop to listen and analyze are just, yeah, pretty amazing and when you think about women who do birth outside the system, they're choosing for them what they consider the lesser kind of, the lesser risk, the lesser evil, and so that means if that's what they're choosing, then their experience, their beliefs of what the alternative is, means that we've got a shitload that we need to change. That's not just personally, but systematically. We need to change If they're going. This is the best way that I can see, because I don't want to experience whatever I experienced before and that's a lot to take in and not take it personally when you're part of that system.
Speaker 2Yes, and so you know there were women telling stories about their private midwives I was a private midwife, you know and about how they didn't want to choose that midwife from last time. And you know, at that time I was a lot more rageful against the system, like there was still that ragey energy that you have when you're just really passionate and you don't know what to do with that. Yet Now I'm a lot more simmered down down. I still feel the inclination to change things, but more strategically. Let's kind of um pull in a china shop type strategy. Yeah, so exactly this is what we found is that, um, women looked at all their options and when they weighed up the safety factors, there was more safety offered to them in these home-based birth models than what would be offered to them in the hospital, and so it was a no-brainer for them. They were like why would I go back to a place where I was literally assaulted last time and not listened to? I can't do that again. I won't survive as a mother.
Speaker 1And that's a decade ago now.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, this is yes, but you know, deep-seated birth trauma. The system has not changed. I don't believe it will change. People ask me all the time how do we change the system? I'm like. You have to offer an alternative to the system. Stop trying to change it. The single rogue midwife from the inside is not going to set off a hand grenade. That's going to change the system. You need to start creating an alternative option for women if you want to see change. That's a whole different story.
Speaker 1But I mean, that's it. We've known that the healthcare system has been under pressure for ages. And then now we know that, well recently, we've had COVID coming up and telling us that whatever we've been doing hasn't been working because it took every band-aid that was possibly on the system and ripped it off with a kind of abundance. And now we've got we've still got a situation where we have an aging workforce, we've got people who are within the next 15 years, are going to be retiring or already starting to pull out now, which means the pressure is going to be back on again, because we can't necessarily, coming from an educationalist point of view, we can educate as many midwives as we want, but we still need experience, we need that skill mix to be there to still be able to have a safe environment, but that's only if they're staffed. We can have as many people employed but they're not actually staffed and they're not around and given the time to create relationships, which we know are the best with a named midwife, then yeah, we can't change the system.
Navigating Midwifery Challenges and Changes
Speaker 2It's impossible, yeah and the you know the system problems go so deep in terms of retention. There's such poor retention because midwives are disrespected and they're disregarded and the work scenarios are unsustainable. They're experiencing moral distress because they're trained as midwives and they're expected to work medically and it's unsustainable to expect somebody to have good mental health and be willing to be a midwife for their lives when that's the condition that they're working under so with your phd on birthing um outside of the system, we also know that that was.
Speaker 1You finished that in 2023, but we've also recently, well recently. The last few years have all merged together, so to me it's still recently, but Hannah and Virginia put out the Birthing Outside the System book as well the Canary in the Coal Mine. So was that related to your work or was that a follow-up that they did?
Speaker 2Yeah, so, yeah. So I finished 2014, my PhD came and then, sometime after not sure how long after years and years after, just before COVID actually, because I remember the book launch happened just when yeah, just when everyone was kind of like, oh, you can come, but don't bring your kids.
Speaker 2You know it was kind of that level of lockdown. You know it was kind of that level of lockdown. And so Hannah in Virginia and Barshi Hazard actually was the other editor on Birthing Outside the System, the Canary in the Coal Mine and so that was a book. It was a compilation of essays from academics who'd done work around birthing outside the system. And so Hannah said, would you write a chapter in the book? And I thought, yeah, cool, of course, write a chapter in the book.
Speaker 2And it felt, I mean a little bit, now I'd love to put my PhD research into a book to make it accessible for everyone else to read, because, honestly, you write these ginormous PhDs and you know four people read it. Yes, honestly, you write these ginormous PhDs and you know four people read it, yes. And so you've got to put papers out and little bit easily consumable items that people can read and and see your work. And so I guess it's a bit tricky now to put a book out called birthing outside the system, because that was the title of my PhD, but now there's already another book, birthing outside the system. I just have to be creative in another way then. Yeah, I mean, I could put it. It could make it be a bit different, but I've got a chapter in that book, as do many, many other people.
Speaker 2And Hannah, very graciously, at the book launch, you know, basically said you know this this book's been brewing for 10 years, ever since Melody Jackson, you know know, the term birthing outside the system became a thing, and actually that was when I did my literature review. That term was never used before birthing outside the system. That was kind of that's my little phrase, which I'm not owning it. I'm just saying you know my little phrase, which I'm not owning it. I'm just saying you know, my claim to fame is that those words were first uttered in my research and I love that. People have adopted it, as you know, a way of talking about outside of the system birthing options.
Speaker 1There's nothing really stopping you and then kind of doing another an update, because I'm sure, unfortunately, things probably haven't changed because I'm sure, unfortunately, things probably haven't changed.
Speaker 2Well, in fact, things you know, the root of the choice to free birth and birthing outside the system is where women's choices are not respected and where menu items are taken off the table. So it hasn't changed. In fact, covid's accentuated the problem that you know of the maternity care system and you know I'm shuffling out my papers here. But the big conclusion from my research was that it's the shortfalls in the system that contribute to women even considering birthing outside of it. It's an iatrogenic consequence. Women free birthing.
Speaker 2So I see it like this like people sort of go oh no, there's nothing wrong with the system. Not all people. There's lots of people who say there is something wrong with it. But it's like going to people in a hotel who have had a great stay at that hotel and say this is a great hotel. But if you want to really understand the issues within an institution, within a hotel, you ask the people who had a horrible stay and who don't intend on booking again. So that's what I did. I interviewed the people who said I will never return to a hospital unless I'm dying. Yeah, and we asked them well, why? Why aren't you going to go back, and so then they could pick apart the problems with those with that way of birthing, in the same way as people could say you know, my hospital stay was terrible, it was noisy, the water did was not hot, the this whatever, whatever, whatever. So yeah, that was the idea. But you know, a book is definitely completely possible.
Speaker 1I just have to get around to that, because now my life is incredibly big, which we'll come to very shortly, but thinking, have you had the chance to catch up with Claire Feely from the UK?
Speaker 2I've had brief chats with Claire.
Speaker 1I would love to chat with her more yes, if she did, her area was practising outside the guidelines. Why within the system? That'd be interesting to see. Because I think knowing and understanding what's important for women, that sometimes is what we don't consider as important when we're working inside of it because of the pressure of the tasks, of the pressure of the tasks, of the requirements of the job. But we know yet we know the relationship, we know and kind of other people, compassionate care of being there, being mindful, we know that's important. But how do you maintain that when you've short-staffed and you're kind of running backwards and forwards? But it is those things of understanding what is important for women, that are the little things for us that make it the big things for them not to want to return.
Speaker 2Well, I think midwives are forced to think what do I need to do at the moment? That's important for the hospital facility Prioritising yep, prioritising, yeah, you have to priorit.
Speaker 2Prioritizing, yeah, you have to prioritize policy as well. Yep, because if you do things that are outside of a policy and somebody picks up on that, you're in trouble. Yep, that's a stressful way of working and so, as a way of self-preservation, midwives have to decide which hill do I die on today? And, and you know, if they've had a busy week and one of their children is sick or they're struggling with something themselves, then they're less inclined to go into battle for a woman, because that is uphill, that's against their workplace wants them to do so. The whole system is geared to just have to, to almost forcibly, ensure that the midwives are working in the way that is in line with policy, but policies aren't always in line with what women need and then that brings up, as you said, that exacerbation of moral distress and injury and that's why they leave.
Speaker 2They think I can't keep doing this. The system's not changing and I'm you know. You've got young midwives who are in their late 20s, early 30s, looking down the barrel of 30 more years in a job that they have no power to change. Yep, and you go. Of course they leave what?
Speaker 1three to five years, and one of the biggest exodus is happening in three to five years. Yep, exactly, they'd rather go and work at a pub somewhere, have kind of equal money in some places, far less responsibility, and they can leave the job and don't have the same amount of stress.
Speaker 2It's just horrific. You know, I have, we have a big farm here, not a big farm, five acre farm, and we hire a person one day a week to come and do big odd jobs. You know a young guy who's fit and you know jobs that I just think I'm not doing that. And I said to my husband I said how much are you paying him? Actually, I didn't actually even think to ask. He's like, oh, he gets 30 bucks an hour. I was like that is like equivalent or more than a midwife an hour. I was like that's absurd. No, he's putting rocks in a wheelbarrow and wheeling them down the hill. I was just mortified and I just think midwifery is such an important job and they should get way more money, way more respect, way more autonomy. So not only are women leaving the system, which we learnt about birthing outside the system, but midwives are too, for almost the same reasons really.
Speaker 1We have got some changes that are happening that are that glimmer, that glimmer of change for the future. We've had the changes going through Parliament for consultation and we've got there are the big study going on that Carolyn Homer and co are doing looking at scope of practice. So I think that, well, I'm hopeful and I do get complained that I live in a very hopeful world that within the next five to ten years that midwives will be able to work to their scope of practice more and that will be better. But we still need a system to change, otherwise we're just going to get more frustrated with more things.
Speaker 2Well, I just spoke to Alison Weatherstone, the chief midwife, this morning. I interviewed her for the podcast because there are massive changes that are happening to help midwives become more autonomous. The collaborative agreement is gone. We're investigating, like we're up, to a solution for professional indemnity insurance. Finally, yeah, nearly, we get there 5,000 hours to become endorsed. You know, looking to be reviewed? Yep, there's new Medicare items which are looking to fund private and publicly funded home birth. There's the chief midwife now in Queensland.
Speaker 1Yes.
Life, Love, and Success
Speaker 2Yep, you know there's a policy on visiting rights for midwives private midwives in hospitals. There's so many changes that I think what this is going to facilitate is a mass exodus from the nine-to-five shift work type model where midwives are working in a hospital on a ward. You know, yeah, do that. If that floats your boat and you love that work, that's where you should be. The problem is is what we're seeing is a lot of midwives don't love that work and they can't see an alternative, and so they just leave, and so I think what these changes are creating is alternatives to working in that hospital setting and in an institution, and it opens up autonomous practice and opportunity for more entrepreneurial practice within midwifery which is where we're kind of coming through, and we'll come to that.
Speaker 1But I want to ask you first how did you celebrate?
Speaker 2your PhD. Guess what I did so the last six months of my. So I got pregnant.
Speaker 1That's one way to celebrate, not in celebration.
Speaker 2So before I finished my PhD, the last year my PhD I got pregnant, yeah. And so actually when I finished, when I graduated, um, I literally was breastfeeding my child in my graduation robes Excellent, yeah. So there wasn't a lot of like, there wasn't a grand celebration, but that was a bit of a trend throughout. I kind of just did big things and then got on with it. And so what I actually did is, when I turned 35, it occurred to me that not only did I not celebrate my 18th birthday because I actually got married. Instead, I didn't do my 21st birthday because I just finished a degree and I was setting up a business.
Speaker 2First birthday because I just finished a degree and I was setting up a business. Then I didn't celebrate the PhD because I was looking after my baby and we did all these things that we just never acknowledged. And so when I was 35, for my birthday I hired a caterer and I got a florist to make all these elaborate floral displays and we had this big 35th birthday party and I invited all the special people in my life who had been part of these big events, and basically the whole idea was for me to tell them how much I loved them, I know. And then my husband had arranged for them all to tell me how much they loved me, I know.
Speaker 2So it was just this love fest and I was like telling people amazing things about them and they were like, no, but you know, do this. That's the way it should be. That's the way it should be.
Speaker 2Yeah, so I used my 35th birthday as an opportunity to just back catalogue, celebrate all of the things that I so, um, I don't remember. I remember my mum took me out for lunch after the graduation ceremony yep, um, but short of that we didn't have one. A big celebration, that's. Yeah, I just kind of went cool, did that, put it in my back pocket and carried on as you do.
Speaker 1So you ended up working for Western Sydney as well as an academic as for part-time, as well as still keeping the private practicing correct.
Speaker 2So I had my baby and actually while he was little they said to me hey, do you want to do some lecturing at university? I was like you know, I've got like a four-month-old baby, right, I don't plan on leaving him. And they said, oh yeah, we figured he would just come. And I was like, well, if he can come, then yes, I can lecture. And actually I was still doing a little bit of PhD stuff by then because I'd kind of part-timed the last year of the PhD because I was pregnant and I had the baby and I took a few months off and then. So I was kind of wrapping up the last little bits of the thesis and um, and also lecturing and so. And then I had me at my baby and didn't as I'm saying it now this was insane but didn't really stop working as a private midwife, um.
Speaker 2So I remember my mum would come to my house that one day a week and sort of help me with the baby while I prepared for my work at uni, and then I would pop him in the car and I'd drive past her house and pick her up and she would drive in with us to uni and either I would feed my babe and sort of bounce him to sleep in the carrier or I'd feed him and she would walk through the campus or whatever she did with him, because I lectured for two hours and so she would just bring him back if he needed anything and then I'd drop her back home and then I'd go and do it again next week. So it wasn't a massive gig, but it was a big undertaking with a new baby and while I was finishing big undertaking with a new baby and while I was finishing my PhD and we built a house while I was pregnant. So we kind of yeah, we moved into that and all the big stresses, yeah, luckily, my husband just absolutely thinks the sun shines out of my ass. And you know, I said him we're doing this and he goes okay, what do you need?
Speaker 2It? Well, right. So I think that's a big part and my mum's the same. She's like okay, we're doing a PhD, sure thing. Okay, now we're lecturing, what do you need? I'm surrounded by enablers.
Speaker 1So you said that your parents were migrants, so were you the first person then to go to university. In your family, my mum was the first person to go to university, oh sweet. So she's been there, done that, she knew what it took she went and when.
Speaker 2So this is the fun story, is that? So my grandparents, yeah, were from Cyprus. They came over and still just lived as if they were in Cyprus. They never really learned how to speak English and they never taught their kids how to speak English. So my mum went to school as a Greek-speaking child and made best friends with an Italian-speaking child, and just had to learn how to speak English at school. And she got sent with her sister, though she was four, she wasn't old enough to go to school, but her mum just sent them both off, get them out of the house. And so she kind of muddled her way through her education and ended up, yeah, getting into university.
Speaker 2And she met my dad, um, when she was 16, and her parents hated him. He was seven years older and they said they basically said, you better make sure she finishes university, because she's the only one who got in. You better make sure she finishes. And my dad took it so seriously because he wanted to be with her and he knew they didn't like him, and so he thought, right, I can, she has got to finish.
Speaker 2So while she was studying, he worked three jobs and he bought them a house and he like made sure that she finished her degree, so she went to university, but other than that, um, there wasn't anybody really that I knew until I met my husband and his dad had a PhD. And I just, you know, I saw, yeah, because he's a smart guy, that's why he has a PhD, but I'm not a smart guy, so I can't have a PhD. Yeah and yeah, and my parents did amazing my dad became a business. You know, both of them were business owners as I was growing up, and there's just that real wog mentality about everything where you just you can do it put effort in and you'll succeed.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely, and so that's just what I've carried through, everything Like well, what's the challenge? Yeah, we could do that. That's fine, we could do that. Yeah, and my grandparents did the same.
Speaker 1They came to Australia, they didn't speak English, but they set up a business and they raised five children and they had a house in Bondi, like it was just you know, so much admiration for people who do that, who travel kind of whether it's the next country or the other side of the world, not knowing what they're getting to something that's culturally, linguistically, very different, um, and especially when your grandparents kind of would have come over as well. That that would have been in the the 50s yeah, my mom was born in 54.
Speaker 2Yeah, so they came. She was little. Yeah, so australia was a very yeah, so they came.
Speaker 1She was little yeah, so Australia was a very British kind of boring, food-wise kind of like we hadn't had the Snowy River come through. That was when that started to come through post-war. So yeah, to just come that way is just amazing. The thought of that is just amazing.
Expanding Impact Through Mentorship
Speaker 2Yeah, so yeah, and that's my ilk and those all now my mum's, brothers and sisters all have gone on to be incredibly successful in their work and in their lives and their business owners, and so it's just not really a surprise of where I've landed when those were my role models and then I had so many people that just kept egging me on which brings us very nicely to what you're currently doing now as an entrepreneur and with your podcast.
Speaker 1So why don't just start that?
Speaker 2so, um, I have always run businesses, so, private midwife I was a naturopath and that's a private kind of sole trading kind of organized organizational thing. Um, while I was at uni I worked as a massage therapist to to get me through that. So again it was all like, how can I set this up to work for myself? How can I have as much autonomy over my work as possible? So I was working as a private midwife and it was about five years ago now. I said to my husband well, like you know, now I've been working as a private midwife for 10 years and people have started to recognize oh yeah, mel's still working as a private midwife, like, and they'd email me for advice. And, um, and one day I said, well, I feel like I've spent all day just emailing people back about how to set up their private practices. And he said to me why don't you do like a formal mentorship or something? And I thought, oh gosh, I wouldn't even know how to set something like that up. That was in 2000. I would have no clue how to do this. And at that time I think I had like 3,000 followers on Instagram or something right. And I thought, well, I mean, it's a good idea, even if he's like then people can actually pay you, there'd be something that you could offer them. Because I said to him I just feel like I can't give them enough information in these email exchanges. I want to give them more and I just feel bad that it's not going to work for them because there's so much more. I need to tell them so that it works.
Speaker 2So, anyway, the next morning I just woke up and I kind of got on Instagram and went hey, you know, if you guys want to learn how to be private midwives, thinking about offering a mentorship, if you're interested, like, put your name on this list. So I thought, right, let's see what happens. Maybe, if people are interested, I might be able to offer something like this. And on the first day I checked my emails and a hundred people had put themselves on Right, and I freaked out. I was like, oh my gosh, and I shut the list down. I was like, no way, no, no, no. Anyway, somewhere along the line I opened it back up and 190 people put their name on the list to learn more.
Speaker 2So then I made these little videos about what I was thinking of doing in the mentorship and if you want to join? Join here, right. So I also had a friend who was selling online courses and I said to her you know what platform are you using? And she said I'm using Kajabi. So I thought, okay, I'll just go use Kajabi too. And I kind of worked out how to, how to use that and how to set up a mentor, how to set up a course online and how to sell that. And, um, I thought, if five people join, then that's I mean, that's been amazing, right, five new private midwives that I could mentor into private practice insane. And then I opened up the cart and I thought, right, if you want to join, this is the week to join. And, um, I opened up my account an hour later and 10 people had signed up beautiful and I thought, oh, this is so whole week.
Expanding Impact Through Business Growth
Speaker 2So by the end of the week, 27 midwives joined that mentorship and that kicked off where I am now, where again with a bit of a shove from my husband, to realise the possibilities of what is possible. Well, what I could do. That made me realise there was a lot more that I could be offering as a midwife than just face-to-face care that I could duplicate myself over and over and over, over and over. And instead of helping 40 women a year as a private midwife, I could do 20, I could train 27 midwives who could help 40 women a year. And then, if I did that again next year and the next year and the next year, that my legacy would not be the impact that I personally made on 40 families every year. And so when I tallied that up, I was like, if I do private midwifery for another 25 years, it's still only 40 women, 40 families a year. And so when I thought about how can I maximize my impact, I thought if I can help midwives get into private practice, that's how I can help way more people. So then my focus moved from. So then I just started thinking about how can I be most impactful. And then the next year in the mentorship, 47 midwives joined, and then the next year, 50 midwives joined, and then the next year, 50 midwives, and then the next year Q financial crisis 35 joined, which is fine, because it's not. You know, dan, it's about. It's about training midwives who can move on into private practice. So the mentorship is basically midwives who've been working in the hospital system who want to be private midwives but don't know about business and are frightened by certain things and there's barriers to them entering. So it's a full year of mentorship with me. There's an online course. I now have a second midwife who helped me coach the other midwives in there. We have a maintenance program now so people who go on to become midwives can still stay in the mentorship and we keep learning and learning together.
Speaker 2So that kind of kicked off, this realization that hang on a second. No one is tapping into the other capacity that we have as private midwives, as midwives, and then. So then I was, I did that and I was like, okay, well, what else could I do? Because I mean, now this is possible. I'm in the online space now.
Speaker 2I was, at that same time, making YouTube videos as well. I made one during COVID about the COVID vaccine, and that attracted a lot of attention and again a lot more Instagram attention and I thought, okay, people are really keen for information that they can't access anywhere else. And I have a PhD and the ability to access information. And I was still. I nurture student midwives who were doing their bachelor's and midwifery and they come out and do placement with me as well, so that opens me up. I've still got access to the university databases because that's as part of that role they, you know, it's a bit of a sweetener absolutely yeah, so, um, so I've got access to research and also the capacity to communicate it and and so you know, as my husband again, he's great, he has a entrepreneurial mindset as well, and we've just kind of knocking around well, what next?
Speaker 2What now with the mentorship? What else could we? How could we keep broadening the impact? And so the podcast we thought, well, maybe we do a podcast. Podcast. So started that.
Speaker 2And the first episode um, 800 people listened to the first episode and I was like, okay, all right. So now we're nearly two years in and and now I get disappointed. I'm like, oh, oh, I only 2,500 listened today. So then the goalposts just keep changing right. I'm like I want way more than that, because I really am focusing on influence and impact. I'm like I want everyone to hear what I've got because it's good. Everyone to hear what I've got because it's good. And then when you attract people to your work, if it's valuable and they see value, they will pay for it. And so in my mind I was like how can I keep going, how can I keep maximizing impact, getting information out there, offering quality thing of quality information, and that means you've got to make an income from your work. And so, yeah, that's what we're doing. We're now we're running Convergence of Rebellious Midwives Conference as well.
Speaker 2It's all the advertising for that Right, it's all over there. That's my husband's fancy work on, you know, social media advertising and then yeah. So the podcast just grew out of a desire to use this skill that I have in being able to read and communicate research to people, and yeah.
Speaker 1So I feel like this next question is a little bit superfluous now. But what next?
Speaker 2Yeah, what next? So it's actually a really exciting time because my husband was working in his own business and for a while I've been saying I want you to do in my business what you're doing in your business. Yep, and unfortunately he's highly skilled in marketing and all these business strategies. That's his favorite thing to do is just read business books and try and understand business. But there wasn't a lot. I mean, there was, there was interest in his work, but his scope is minimal.
Speaker 2He he trained as a school teacher and he was a school principal and so he moved into training teachers and offering professional development, but it was restricted to New South Wales and it was restricted to PDHPE teachers. So he kind of identified like I can't really go anywhere else with my business. I've sort of saturated the market on what I can do and he was less enjoying that area. And I said to him look, you are now an experienced entrepreneur, you've run a successful business, but I want you to apply your know-how to my business because mine could go.
Speaker 2You know, anybody all over the world could listen to the podcast and apply it, and so I've got the opportunity to reach midwives and women and families all over the world. And so we looked at that, and because we homeschool our kids and we've set up a lifestyle that only requires really one of us to be working, the other can be caring for the kids and we can interchange those roles quickly and easily that it made sense for him to be working on my stuff and he that excited him, and so actually, it was only literally this week that he's finally agreed that that's going to happen. Oh, congratulations, thank you. So I appointed him the official CEO of Melanie the Midwife.
Speaker 1It's always good. Yep, absolutely, you're the other talent. You need someone else.
Speaker 2Correct. So that's that's where I sit. I'm the creative director and, like we, we couldn't come up with a name name, so I just said just call me the boss and you're the CEO. And then he had a PA that was helping him in his business and I said I don't want to keep your PA, I want, I want my own person. And so we are. Currently I'm literally, when I get off this call with you, I'm writing a job description for an executive assistant, a full-time one. Oh, how brilliant.
Speaker 1I know.
Speaker 2So from here it's actually we have to catch up with the expansion that's happened in my business. At the moment, the business is growing faster than I can manage it, yes, and now I have to learn how to manage a big business instead of a small one. So, yeah, by the end of hopefully the end of this month, we'll have like tripled our number of employees, and I don't know where the ceiling is or, but currently it's. The podcast is happening. We do intend on doing the conference every year, because we've just sold 325 tickets.
Speaker 1Oh, wow. Still yeah, there's demand.
Speaker 2It's there, there's demand, and so we'll plan on doing that. I have a book in the works, the Great Birth Rebellion book, but now also, of course, as you mentioned it, the Birthing Outside the System book's got to happen. I'm currently also building a course with Kirsten Small. Dr Kirsten Small, we're offering 10 CPD hours for pharmacology and diagnostics for midwives over the year, so we're building that. What else is happening? Yeah, there's also the assembly of rebellious midwives which has it, which is an online membership program for midwives. Um, and we there's a whole community online, so that's happening as well, and we kind of are in the process of relaunching that to open it for more memberships. Um, I just want to keep having an impact, yeah, on the free world, and I do think that it's not going to happen from trying to change the system. I'd really love to create a new way that midwives can work and see what the scope is like, see that they can actually run businesses and they can offer their services in that way.
Speaker 2And so often I think, as midwives, because we've been perpetually undervalued, we undervalue ourselves oh yes yeah, and so I'm all about telling midwives like you actually have valuable information and you should back yourself and you should charge appropriately for it and you should make comfortable living off midwifery and that's okay. And some people see that as maybe exploitative, because having good, proper healthcare is a human right. The problem is is that if we continue to exploit midwives, we're never, ever going to improve anything for women. So I think the minute we start valuing midwives, paying them what they're worth, then of a sudden the the result will be an improvement in maternity care services and then it'll start rolling on. So I don't subscribe to the idea that midwives should not um make a comfortable income and it shouldn't just be people who are in academic positions who can um, who can live comfortably. So, yeah, what's next?
Speaker 1the future is is kind of your own making yeah, and I think what?
Speaker 2what really challenges midwives is they get into midwifery because they want to be midwives, but then, in order to work autonomously, they have to be business people. Yes, yes, so this is the big thing that trips midwives up. When they want to move into private practice, they're like well, I don't know, how do I do the financial stuff? How do I set up a business? I don't, that's not me, I just wanted to do midwifery. And so when midwives talk to me about oh my gosh, how are you doing this? I'm like I am a business person. I just so happen, my skill and my service just so happens to be midwifery. And so when you start applying, when you, when you flip the mindset and say I am a midwife, how do I offer midwifery services? When you flip that and say I am a business person and I am setting up a business and the surface is midwifery or the service is education or this, whatever the service is that you're going to offer, then your immediate task is to set up a business structure and learn about business and get yourself a bookkeeper and an accountant and do all that stuff so that you can be a midwife. And then your world starts to open up. So so you know.
Speaker 2Lots of people say how do I get out of the system? You've got to be a business person because you're pioneering something new, you know, and so that can absolutely be learnt. I'm sure somewhere down deep in my genes there's a business gene that got passed down through the ages, but I haven't had any formal training. I've just learned from people who have run businesses, and I've read books and you listen to podcasts and you adopt ideas. You know I am doing a lot of business courses. I've actually invested over $100,000 in coaching and education about how to be a business person from people who were doing it, and so you know it's not a small investment at all, but it just um, it catapults you into that different mindset of rather than how can I make my midwifery a business, it's how can I make my big business?
Speaker 1and people will do it without thought about sport. They'll go do sports courses, they'll get a coach in, they'll get psychologists in, they'll get the people in to actually help them make their performance better. But it's yeah, it's getting that mindset and maybe that's something that we need to look at when we're doing the review of I don't know how we fit it into the midwifery kind of undergraduate course because it's already packed as it is.
Speaker 1But maybe that's something we do need to bring into the undergraduate course and we need to actually bring in some business sense and how to set up a business, because in New Zealand you're qualified, you can work independently yes, well and yeah, but here, when you're qualified, then you've got to start from scratch building a business, and nobody teaches you really how to do that, which was why the mentorship came about.
Speaker 2So, unless they somehow formalize that at a university. Um, you know the midwives who come to me. I say to them look, you're all midwives. I'm not going to teach you midwifery skill.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm going to teach you how to set up a private practice usually post-grad yeah yeah, so um, the other thing is is that business, the whole business structure and way and business model and ways of doing business is very masculine. So I have periods in my month where I literally do, but also there are time periods you care to me what I just said where I think that everything's going to fail, that I upset everyone that week, that maybe I am no good and should I just do something completely different. And then I eat a bar of chocolate and bleed and I go, oh, that's what that was about. And the next week I have all these ideas and I restructure the business and I hire a new person, I get all energetic and I said to my husband you know, I've got to remember that I'm a woman and that I'm cyclical and so my business has to adapt to that. And so I have women who work for me, who have children, it like with them all the time, and I know that they only answer emails between six and eight 30 at night and that's their work time and they know if I'm having, if I have on my period.
Midwifery Entrepreneurship and Work-Life Balance
Speaker 2And I just think, you know I do not want to do that today because I don't feel like it and I'm having a cranky morning and I just don't work. And so you know, I think it really honors, you know, working in business as a woman. It honors actually how we function, and I'm not apologizing for that either. And you know now, with this executive assistant that I'm about to hire, the only requirement is that they have a four hour block in their day, somewhere where they can be on call to me, but the other hours of their day can be any time, because you know there's an acknowledgement that women have so many responsibilities and that we want to honour that and be able to also work.
Speaker 2So I think, you know, I've worked as a private midwife and an entrepreneur through my entire career while I was having children. We've we've built two houses, like there's so much that we've been able to do. We homeschool our children, we have a hobby farm, like there's so much. Um, you know we're heavily involved in our church life and and I just think there's no way I could do this, uh, firstly, without the support of my husband and all people around me, but, um, working in a shift-based model where my time was dictated by somebody else, it just I could not have thrived like this. No, it is very much different.
Speaker 1Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2I really can talk sorry about no, no it's like it's.
Speaker 1It's all good, amazing.