Ep. 5 - Should Christians Attend Gay Weddings?

Could your presence at a wedding signify more than just a simple RSVP? That's the tough question we grapple with and challenge Pastor Alistair Begg's thoughts on the topic. In this episode, we traverse the rocky terrain of faith, love, and societal norms. It's a dilemma that's sprouted from church pews to dinner tables: Should Christians attend gay weddings? Embarking on this thought-provoking journey, we tackle the real-life conundrum of an elderly woman torn between her love for a family member and her commitment to her beliefs. 

The air is thick with debate as we unwrap the evolving definitions of marriage and their ripple effects on traditional family structures. With the landscape of what constitutes a family shifting beneath our feet, we probe how Christians can maintain their theological integrity amidst these changes. We carefully distinguish between celebrating events that clash with Christian doctrine and simply establishing moral boundaries that do not cause us to compromise our values. This isn't just theoretical musing; it's a pressing, real-world puzzle that many face today, and we're here to offer insights and understanding for those entangled in this intricate web of decisions.

As we draw the curtains on today's discussion, it's clear there's a delicate balance to strike between values and relationships, a balance that requires both sensitivity and conviction. By reflecting on Paul's teachings and the broader implications of our actions, we aim to illuminate how Christians might navigate such social invitations. Throughout this episode, the conversation isn't just about attending a gay wedding—it's a broader reflection on how we, as Christians, need to stand for truth in a culture that is aggressively attacking the family structure that God has set in place. 

Join us on this exploratory journey that promises to challenge your perspectives, affirm your convictions, and perhaps, most importantly, foster deeper understanding of how you can integrate your Christian faith into everyday life decisions. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Alright, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and Theo podcast Podcast where we discuss church culture and all things Bible related. I'm Sam, I'm Tim and we are tackling a difficult topic today, as always, that's per usual, right.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Nothing new here. Nothing new here. Nothing new here.

Speaker 1: 0:22

That is, we want to get canceled. That's the thing we want.

Speaker 2: 0:25

We should rename this show the Four of Controversies.

Speaker 1: 0:28

Let's get canceled. There were so many different things that came up I wouldn't even think of a music song for that. We would have to get a really cool music song for that I immediately am thinking of the office episode, where it says let's get ethical.

Speaker 1: 0:45

Oh man, so many good ones. Tim has been busting on these memes and creating all these cool videos, so it's been a really good time for us both. The controversy that we will be discussing today, which is something that people have encountered, this is a question that is not new. But the question that we're tackling is should Christians attend gay weddings? And immediately you start thinking to yourself well, I have a couple of weddings coming up this summer and I don't know how many of those are actual gay weddings or if I should even be attending, or maybe you have friends who are considering that and maybe have that question for you. So we're going to try to tackle that topic. It seems like it's been something that's been trending, especially with someone that both Tim and I respect, Pastor Alistair Begg, and we'll get into that in a little bit.

Speaker 1: 1:41

But yeah, Tim, this is again nothing short of controversy, a topic that I have encountered personally maybe two or three times. I don't know how common it is for this question to come up, but I was reading some data on this topic and it seems that a lot of Christians Catholics. You have people who are obviously non-believers. You have atheists that don't really feel strongly about attending or not attending gay marriages. In fact, more than half of the people that I was reading about were supportive of it. I'll give some numbers on that in a little bit. But yeah, as you think about this topic that we've been discussing whether or not Christians should attend gay weddings what are some thoughts that came to mind for you when you heard it was Alistair Begg, or when you just hear this topic in general?

Speaker 2: 2:34

Yeah, so this is not a new question or a new topic. I mean, when I first started teaching worldview many years ago, this was a question that I would actually pose to my students freshman students.

Speaker 1: 2:48

Oh, you have them.

Speaker 2: 2:48

refresh my oh, yeah, yeah yeah, we would talk about the biblical worldview and homosexual or homosexuality or LGBT issues. This was a scenario that I would pose to them. It was not the same of what Alistair Begg was dealing with, but it was a very similar scenario and I would just throw it out to the class and then let them wrestle and debate and argue and break pole sticks and fight over no.

Speaker 1: 3:16

I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2: 3:17

I didn't allow violence mostly, but yeah. So for those of you who maybe aren't familiar with what happened, Alistair Begg. He told of this scenario. I don't know if somebody asked him a question or if he just volunteered it in a sermon. I don't actually know the original video, but essentially there was an elderly woman who wrote to him and asked him for advice on whether she should attend a loved one's wedding who was a lesbian couple, I believe, and what was transgender.

Speaker 2: 3:55

Oh yeah one was transgender and she was asking if it was a sin or not to attend the wedding, even though she was personally against homosexual lifestyle and of course also against the transgender ideology that has been put forward. But she was wondering if it was a sin to attend the wedding just to show her support for her loved one, even though she didn't necessarily affirm gay marriage. Okay, that was her question. Alistair Begg answered that question by essentially saying that it was possible to attend a gay wedding without morally affirming gay marriage as biblical, essentially. So, if you put that in ethical terms or ethics terms, begg's position, at least at that point, was saying that at least in some cases it is morally permissible. We put this in the category moral permissibility. It's morally permissible to attend a gay wedding After certain circumstances. I don't think he would say in all cases, but at least in this particular circumstance that he was addressing he would say that.

Speaker 2: 5:11

Of course, what happened then was an onslaught of criticism from social media of a group that I affectionately refer to as the Reformed Bros. They run around on social media like a gang dog, pile on everyone, and Alistair Begg was the target of their rage at that point. Now I think the criticism was fair, as we'll get into. It's fair to criticize this position that he took. But what happened then was he reacted to them and attacked them and then it just made it even worse, because now the fight got even worse. That's where I stopped following the controversy, because some of the arguments that Begg was making he kind of dug himself deeper at that point. He made some pretty bad arguments at first and then when he doubled down on his position his arguments got worse. So it just made the problem worse. So some people overreacted, I think, and were like almost like breaking fellowship with Alistair Begg.

Speaker 2: 6:11

They wanted to completely write him off, and I just think that's unfair to a man that's given his life to the gospel.

Speaker 1: 6:17

Yeah, I agree, I mean one of the things that when I first heard about it, I'm like Alistair Begg said that and I was thrown off by it because I followed Alistair, but for a long time, and still do. But to your point, yeah, I mean, he's a true minister of the gospel, loves people committed to biblical truth and this is one of those cases where you get a question and you try to answer as biblically as possible and yet what he recommended kind of goes against Christian thoughts and belief. So, yeah, that's what we're going to wrestle with today. But I was surprised, not just by that, but also, as I was sharing a little bit earlier, just kind of these numbers that I was looking at when they were taking a poll on how many people support so this is the support of same-sex marriage. According to the PRRI, which is polling, these were Christians. Polling Christians, it says 87% of nuns, 81% of Jews, 77% of Buddhists and 77% of white mainland Protestants approve of same-sex marriage. 81% of nuns. That's what it's showing here 87% of nuns.

Speaker 2: 7:41

Like non-religious, nuns Non-religion.

Speaker 1: 7:44

Oh, I thought you were referring to Catholic nuns.

Speaker 2: 7:47

I was like what it does sound like that.

Speaker 1: 7:49

I don't know why we're pronouncing non, the non yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:52

Be careful here. Be careful here, yes. Because then it's followed by Catholic nuns, a lot of nuns going to gay weddings.

Speaker 1: 8:00

The non-religious, the non-religious 81% of nuns would shock me in the least. Yes, 81% of nuns would shock me, but all of the other ones though.

Speaker 2: 8:14

it's pretty wild and I wonder if it's because Well, okay, what were the other stats besides the nuns?

Speaker 1: 8:22

81% of Jews 81% of Jews.

Speaker 2: 8:25

Okay, I think people need to understand with Jews they break down into a couple different groups Now if anyone's listening, and they're a very strong religious Jew. Forgive me if I get the categories a little wrong, but essentially you have Orthodox Jews who are conservative theologically and usually politically and morally. You have Hasidic Jews, which is where I get a little fuzzy on the distinction between the Hasidic Jews and the Orthodox or conservative Jews. Again, I'm not very clear on that distinction, but there is a distinction there. The big group are the Reformed Jews, which now that's different than Protestant Reformed Jews. Reformed Jews in that circle tend to be more liberal, liberal theologically, liberal politically. When we mean liberal theologically, that means they might just be almost practicing non-religious in some ways. So that does not shock me. And then there's just non-practicing Jews who tend to be politically liberal. So a lot of the Jewish population does identify as politically liberal. So that shouldn't shock a lot of people. Conservative Jews are the minority.

Speaker 1: 9:39

And the Buddhists and mainline Protestants.

Speaker 2: 9:42

So in the 70s? Yeah, the Buddhists.

Speaker 1: 9:46

By the way it's the Public Religion Research Institute.

Speaker 2: 9:48

Yeah, so I'm actually kind of in the dark on where Buddhists fall politically. I have my hunches as to why that. What was the percentage again?

Speaker 1: 9:58

Or Buddhist 77.

Speaker 2: 9:59

77,. Okay, so almost three out of four Buddhists. Yeah, I don't know. I'm mystified by that one. I don't really know the source or what would be the reason for that. Someone might know Mainline Protestants. That doesn't shock me either, because people need to understand what a mainline Protestant is. That's true. Yeah, a mainline Protestant is different than an evangelical Protestant, not to get into too much church history here. But a mainline Protestant refers to some denomination such as the Presbyterian Church, like PCUSA would be considered a mainline Protestant organization. The Lutheran Church there's different synods of Lutheranism, like the Misericenna tends to be more conservative, but Lutherans by and large as a whole would be considered a mainline Protestant organization. Or, to some others, methodists would be considered mainline Protestant and then Episcopalians, which is like yeah, episcopalians, if you're an.

Speaker 2: 11:00

Anglican would be considered a mainline Protestant denomination as well. So those denominations there are evangelical factions within them but they may not necessarily be evangelical Like the Methodists kind of are split, especially on some subject of gay marriage. They've been in the news a lot lately. So if someone is a mainline Protestant, the probability of them being politically liberal is much higher than if they were to say I'm an evangelical Protestant or I'm a conservative evangelical Protestant, meaning I'm theologically conservative. Theological conservatives tend to be more politically conservative too. The theological conservative is someone who holds to the fundamentals of the faith, that inspiration of scripture, virgin birth, the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ these things would be considered fundamentals of the faith and evangelicals come out of that.

Speaker 1: 12:02

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:03

So I hope that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 12:05

Well, I think that's the same battle that everyone has about all these different factions of people that call themselves Christians have this belief about marriage and you would think that, well, if we're all identifying as Christian, that we should probably get one of the most basic things down, which is the marriage between man and woman, and oppose anything that attacks that. But that's not where we are today and we also have, obviously, people who are Christian by name only, which means I go to church on Sunday and that's it, and the rest of the week they live their life however they want.

Speaker 2: 12:39

We got to come up with all of those different. We got to come up with a good acronym for Christian and name only Like Republican and name only is Rhino. It's really catchy. Yeah, what do you call a Christian and name only? I don't know. I'm not going to attempt it on the radio.

Speaker 1: 12:51

I'm not going to attempt it. Yeah, we'll leave that to the audience. I figured out your, your options.

Speaker 2: 12:57

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:57

But you could imagine the confusion or the.

Speaker 2: 13:02

I could imagine this become a few If you made a clip of what do we call a Christian and name only. I could just imagine the most boomer response of that being like it's not a Christian. Thank you, yes, yes, thank you?

Speaker 1: 13:14

Yes, thank you. Oh man, okay, we've had some. Okay, I agree that my job is to take us on tangents. We've had our share of comments, as we see. We have, we have, yeah, so I'm going to think that this is going to bring up the same Listen all the hate comments.

Speaker 2: 13:30

Just, it's just fuel.

Speaker 1: 13:31

We're coming.

Speaker 2: 13:32

Yeah, keep it coming we Okay, so let's get into this Shall we. So he gave you some stats. I think this center. So this is the central question of our episode. The title is should Christians attend a gay wedding? So I think we need to be faithful to our audience and into that, less we, less we be accused of clickbaiting them True, which we don't want to do.

Speaker 1: 13:54

We don't want to do, we don't, so we're getting to unless we get to this clicks All right, okay, so the question of Tim.

Speaker 2: 14:01

Yeah, the question would be should, should Christians attend a gay wedding? Now, me as a, an ethicist, I'm going to try to break this down into more, more like a generic, generic question or something that could be individualized. So when we say, should Christians attend a gay wedding, that could be construed as like do you have a moral obligation to or not? Let's put it this way Is it morally permissible for Christians to attend a gay wedding? So that would that would mean is it ever? Is it ever allowed, let's say, for a Christian to attend a gay wedding, or is it morally up Prohibitive, and that is it. Is it a sin to attend a gay wedding? I think that's the two categories that we got to work with. Is it always a sin or is it sometimes morally permissible? Okay, I don't think anyone would. Well, any like conservative evangelical would say it's always morally permissible, because you know we could think of examples when that wouldn't be.

Speaker 1: 15:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:01

But I think the central question and this was gets to begs controversy is is it ever morally permissible?

Speaker 1: 15:09

And that's that's a more like the exception type of thing, or no?

Speaker 2: 15:14

Yeah. So you know, the controversy boiled over because begs basically said it's he tried to argue that it was it was possible to attend a wedding without affirming what was going on there. I think that is a mistake. Yeah, my my personal opinion on that now.

Speaker 2: 15:34

Now, those who are listening, we're going to, we're going to make arguments to, we're going to make ethical, biblical, theological arguments here to show you our position. But, as I say to my students, we have to do this, we have to hold our positions with an open hand, with humility. So, because you know, we could be wrong, but my personal position is that this is Christians. It's not, it should not be morally permissible. I don't think I don't think it is morally permissible for Christians to attend a gay wedding, like voluntarily, like if you're, if you're somehow your employment, which you in that place. I don't think that. I think that's a little bit different.

Speaker 2: 16:14

To attend as a guest or as a member of the party or something like that, I think is something that Christians ought to avoid is my position. So let's get into that. Well, how do we get to? How do I get to that position? Yeah, okay, now I've heard two strategies on, like, how to convince people. Some people say give them your permission, your position, right up front and then give them your argument so they know where you're coming from. And others like no, no, no, no, you got to like, you got to woo them into it Right.

Speaker 2: 16:41

And then drop it on. So I went with the first one today. Okay, good, okay. So did you want to say anything before I get into this?

Speaker 1: 16:49

No, I think I have the. There's the arguments that people make why they would or should attend gay weddings and why they shouldn't, so kind of putting people in that space of here's where the people who say that first.

Speaker 2: 17:03

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:04

Okay, yeah, so obviously one of the arguments that beg was making was this idea of showing love and acceptance to people who are who are experiencing or who are doing this wedding. Right, so it was a granddaughter, so she says one way in which you can do this is, you know, you can show love and acceptance towards the individual by attending this wedding. So, from a position of should you attend, here's an argument that you might hear. Well, you got to show love to the person that you care for.

Speaker 2: 17:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:35

If you show, if you show up to their wedding. They asked you to come to the wedding. That's one way in which you can show love. You can also show a an acceptance of a different position, that your relationship is not going to be hindered by this relationship with this other person that they love. And the third argument is that they are celebrating the genuine love and commitment from one person to another. So those are arguments that some Christians could make to why it's okay to attend a wedding like this, and they'll use, obviously, verses that talk about love and acceptance and so on. So those are why they would say it's okay for grandma to attend this wedding or for you, as a friend, to attend a friend's gay wedding, right? So, kind of taking the position that you're taking, I don't agree with that because it doesn't show the actual love and there's different ways in which you can do that other than going to a wedding, like you could do that outside of a wedding ceremony or situation, right. So I think when we are you getting?

Speaker 2: 18:41

are you getting into the the con arguments now? Yes, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:45

And and, and this is the reason why you should not attend a gay wedding. A gay wedding. Number one it goes against what we fundamentally believe to be what God instituted as a marriage, which is a man and a woman, and one of the things that are points that I wanted to communicate today was your actions in attending a gay wedding is going to speak much louder than you saying that you don't believe in something. Right, people read the things that we do, right. They say behavior is a language, and what you're communicating is by attending is that you do approve, even though you say I don't approve of this wedding, I'm going to go. What people are going to read, not just the person that you're, the that is from the wedding, but people who are also attending. They're going to read that you are an approval of that marriage because people read behavior. So, even though you might say something that is different, they're not going to pay attention to that. They're going to pay attention to what you actually did Right.

Speaker 1: 19:48

And there's this aspect also of avoiding the appearance of supporting or condoning same sex marriage. So is that becomes a problem too, because what is that community to people who are either non believers or to other people who are also Christians that you are attending this wedding. And then, thirdly, it's kind of, in a large sense, kind of protecting your own spiritual well being, because sometimes when we make small exceptions for different situations like this, we tend to make bigger ones or we start to see it not as a big deal and we slowly start to kind of be more accepting of different types of situations like that. So if we're able to do once, we're more likely to do it again and they're more likely to do it again. So then everything starts getting blurry and that's what happens is that with time and we've talked about this before that these changes and beliefs and values and what we believe that the Bible teaches about marriage and about the family itself, it starts to shift, because we start making these, these decisions that are actually big decisions, and it starts to shift our attitude towards our belief about marriage itself. So those are the reasons why I would recommend not to attend, because it communicates something bigger than we actually think. It's a public space, so it's kind of like your value being on full display there and again, people are reading the behavior, not what you say. So you could come back and say, well, I hated it, or you know it wasn't good or it was this, but everyone will read you still went to the wedding and you accepted that and you supported that. So so that's that's my position.

Speaker 1: 21:32

It's not an easy position to take, because I know that a lot of people may have and you know, as we talked about last time, there's so many more people now identifying with LGBTQ and because they are identifying that they want this small moments of acceptance which only further enhances or promotes kind of what they believe, or seen as OK. Well, if you, as a Christian, are a strong believer and you're able to attend and come to this wedding, then maybe it's not that bad. And then so that's where also your testimony and also your beliefs start to get impacted as well. So it's a hard position, but I also say there's other ways in which you can show love and demonstrate love to be outside of going to the wedding. I think you could have that conversation even in private.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Hey, you know what I believe as a, as a Christian, as someone who believes in marriage between men and women. I appreciate you inviting me to your wedding. I wouldn't be able to attend because it's a value conflict for me, but know that I'll be here if you need anything else outside of that. And again, remember you have a history. There's a reason why they're inviting you to their wedding because you have a history, friendship or something that they appreciated about you which plays a role in that decision. Ok, OK, sorry, I built up a lot.

Speaker 2: 22:52

But yeah, you built up a lot there. We're going to have to come back to some of that.

Speaker 1: 22:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, ok, you have questions.

Speaker 2: 22:56

Well, so I wanted to. I think we need to back up and unpack a few things to explain to the audience how we arrive at this position, ok, lest we just kind of give our positions and then right off into the sunset you know which would be a. You know, you know, look baby, maybe yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:12

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:12

OK, so let's, let's ask a few things. How do we arrive at a position like this, logically, biblically, how do we get here? Let's, let's work on some definitions first. Matt Walsh was famous for the documentary what is a Woman. I'm gonna make a documentary called what is a Wedding.

Speaker 1: 23:34

Okay, yeah, that's good.

Speaker 2: 23:36

Maybe I won't, but that's the first question we need to ask. So, if you're asking, the central question is is it morally permissible to attend a gay wedding? So let's unpack each one of those words. What is a wedding? All right, as I was thinking about this, I mean, we could look up definitions all day long, but in a common vernacular, a wedding is a public celebration of a romantic sexual union between at least two people. Okay, Now, like romantic, it's a public celebration, romantic sexual union with at least two people. Now, I said at least two people because we're in a polyamorous society now.

Speaker 1: 24:23

So you get some weird things. We're not conunding that, we're just saying this is.

Speaker 2: 24:27

Yeah, yeah. Now someone might say well, I know a guy who married a cartoon character. Okay okay, or married themselves.

Speaker 1: 24:33

Yeah, married themselves.

Speaker 2: 24:35

Okay, okay. So let's let me unpack this. When I say it's a public celebration, what I mean by that? It is more than a mere public recognition of a union. A courthouse wedding like well, it's not really a wedding, it's a legal contract that's being, it's a legal document that's being signed where the state recognizes the union of the two. So a marriage license is a legal representation or a recognition that there's a union between two persons going on here. Okay, that would be a mere public recognition. The state doesn't endorse the union. The state doesn't embrace or celebrate the union. The state doesn't call it morally good or bad. The state just recognizes there's a legitimate legal union here. Okay, in terms of what a marriage license is? Okay, sure. So a wedding is something different than that. A wedding is something more than that, because, if you think about, you sign a marriage license.

Speaker 2: 25:38

typically, a marriage license is signed at a wedding, so a marriage license signing is part of this bigger thing called a wedding. So a wedding has to be more than a mere public recognition. Do you follow me so?

Speaker 1: 25:49

far.

Speaker 2: 25:50

Okay. So that's why we say it's a public celebration, because people are attending voluntarily who are not the state. They are members of the community, members of our religious community sometimes, who are attending a festival that is intended to celebrate an event, and that event being the joining of two people. And that's when we get to this other part. A romantic sexual union, like a wedding, isn't the signing of a sports athlete to a team. Okay, we don't get invitations and show up to like LeBron James. Well, maybe some people get an invitation to LeBron James signing of Miami or LA, or whatever.

Speaker 2: 26:35

Okay, but we don't show up to that like, eh, we're all celebrating and here to support LeBron signing with a new team or something. We don't do that all right, so it's not. The type of union that's going on here is not a business transaction either. We're not showing up like at a corporate merger to eat cake and drink wine and celebrate how we're gonna make a bunch of money in this corporate merger. You get my point.

Speaker 1: 27:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:04

The celebration here is of a romantic nature and it's of a sexual nature, because why are two adults romantic if they aren't sexual? You know what I'm saying? Like if they're getting in that kind of union. So it is at least romantic and sexual between two adults, and that is the union that's being celebrated.

Speaker 1: 27:20

Mm-hmm, yeah, okay, does that make sense so far yeah?

Speaker 2: 27:23

Okay, I'm trying to make a steel cage here. Okay, all right, all right. And then I say between at least two people, yeah, okay, except for the guy that marries himself.

Speaker 1: 27:32

Except for that guy.

Speaker 2: 27:33

All right. So if a wedding, if a wedding is that, so it's a union that's being celebrated, it's a uniquely romantic, you know, and sexual nature. If that is a wedding, then what is a gay wedding? A gay wedding is a public celebration of a romantic sexual union between at least two homosexual persons, or let's throw in their transgender, if you want. Okay, for Alistair Begg's example. A gay wedding entails at least that much. Okay, you follow me.

Speaker 1: 28:12

Yeah, I follow.

Speaker 2: 28:13

Okay, so I'm with you, yeah, so just so we know what we're dealing with. That is what a gay wedding is. A lot of people will try to make this argument that a wedding is something other than that, that it's a mere public, that it's a mere public recognition.

Speaker 1: 28:27

Like as some sort of Better to try to minimize what a wedding is.

Speaker 2: 28:29

They try to minimize what a wedding is in order to blunt the moral force of arguments that would say you should not attend a gay wedding. Because if a wedding is simply just some public thing, like going to the park or going to a fair or something where just attending doesn't mean you endorse everything that's there, if they can define a wedding that way, then it blunts the moral, the force of the moral argument against going to a gay wedding.

Speaker 1: 28:57

You mean from a Christian perspective?

Speaker 2: 28:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah okay, yeah, so in order to expose the moral problem with a gay wedding, we have to actually be honest about what a wedding is. And this is my challenge to a lot of all the Christians that are listening is that you have to be honest about the definitions we're using and consistent, okay, and you have to be honest about what a wedding is. We're really deceiving ourselves or deceiving other people for the sake of avoiding the obvious if we define a wedding in any other way than that public celebration of a romantic sexual union. If you say a wedding is anything other than that, you're avoiding the obvious. Okay, so if you accept that definition, then you have to admit that a gay wedding is a celebration of that. Okay, and anyone can accept this. You don't have to be a Christian to accept the definition. This is what I'm getting at.

Speaker 1: 29:53

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:54

Okay, accept the definition to be consistent. Okay, that's what we wanna do first is be consistent in our definitions. Okay, so I'm a philosopher, so that's what I do okay. Do you have anything to add to that before I move on?

Speaker 1: 30:05

No, I mean, I see you building up to this argument of here's what the marriage actually means you can't see I'm John Cena.

Speaker 2: 30:16

You can't see me. You don't know what I'm gonna do.

Speaker 1: 30:18

All right, so you surprised me then.

Speaker 2: 30:20

That's exactly what I'm gonna do.

Speaker 1: 30:22

It's good though.

Speaker 2: 30:23

All right. So then we need to ask ourselves this If you are a Christian, okay, we want to think biblically, we wanna think consistently in our moral theology, so we have to ask the question. Okay, if we're gonna ask, is it morally permissible or not, then on what basis? And most evangelical Christians are gonna say what are gonna ask what does the Bible say about this issue? So, going with our definition of what a gay wedding is, we should ask is a gay wedding condoned biblically? Does the Bible condone gay weddings?

Speaker 2: 31:00

Now you might immediately think, if you know your Bible, I don't know of a single gay wedding in the Bible. So how could the Bible condone or condemn it? Right? So that's an argument from silence. Some people make that argument. It's not a good argument, but they'll make it okay. So if there's no examples of gay weddings in the Bible, how do we come to the conclusion that a gay wedding would not be biblically condoned? Because that would be my position, that the Bible, that if you're just looking at the biblical data, I don't think there's any way you get around the conclusion that a gay wedding is biblically condoned, that the Bible is pretty clear that that's not moral, that's immoral behavior according to the scriptures if you're an evangelical Christian, okay, like I said, we're gonna get canceled, so we might as well just go hard into the pain here.

Speaker 2: 31:50

So let's get into, like, what does the Bible say about? If a wedding is a romantic sexual union, it's a celebration of that, and a gay wedding is a union between two same sex individuals, let's say, or if you're transgender, we always gotta fill that in now, it's an asterisk.

Speaker 1: 32:08

It's an asterisk, yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:09

What does the Bible say about sex and marriage? Let's just start with that. Every example that we see of marriage in the Bible is heterosexual every example. There's not a single example or illusion in the Bible to any sort of same sex marriage union.

Speaker 1: 32:30

Okay, so let's just, which covers a long track of time as well, and because things have changed so quickly, I think it's important also to point that out, that we're not just saying, oh, it's in the Bible, but you're also it's in the Bible across centuries.

Speaker 2: 32:43

Yeah, yeah, you know. And then we can ask the question that's just on marriage, like what is the picture of marriage in the Bible? Now, I've heard some people will jump to this, and so let me just blunt this criticism right away. Some people will jump and say oh yeah, but what about polygamy, which is having multiple spouses? I would say that's a separate issue. We're not even actually addressing that at this point. We're just talking about same sex couples at this point.

Speaker 2: 33:12

So you have to be in the world of philosophy and ethics. You have to be disciplined to stay narrow in your arguments and not get taken off on tangents.

Speaker 2: 33:19

So if someone brings up that objection about monogamous versus polygamous marriages in the Bible, just say well, that's a different issue. We could talk about what the Bible says about monogamous marriages, but right now we're just talking about heterosexual versus homosexual marriages. Okay, the Bible is also well, let's say this. Well, it doesn't Matthew 19,. So a lot of times people will go straight to Jesus and they'll say well, jesus never said anything about homosexuality.

Speaker 2: 34:01

Okay, this is a fallacy, because one it tries to split Jesus off from the rest of the New Testament, which is a classic liberal move, a classic theological liberal move is that Jesus, the theology around Jesus, is different than the theology that Paul taught. So they split Jesus and Paul out together and then they'll just focus on what did Jesus say, because that's true Christianity. Everything else is just a perversion or something built, added to it later. So Jesus never really addresses homosexuality explicitly. So this is the argument that they'll make. If Jesus didn't say anything about it, then it must be okay. But as one of my professors said many years ago, jesus didn't say anything about punching babies in the face. But we kind of know that one's wrong.

Speaker 1: 34:42

Okay.

Speaker 2: 34:44

There's lots of things we can deduce from what Jesus says about other things. Okay, if you can deduce that punching babies in the face is wrong from other things, jesus says like I don't know, love your neighbors yourself, just for starters.

Speaker 2: 35:00

Let's see what Jesus says and let's see what we can deduce about gay marriage or just homosexuality in general, from what Jesus says, and the clearest example of that is Matthew 19. Jesus teaching on divorce he's asked about divorce. The Pharisees try to get him in a trap of whether he's going to take one side of one rabbi or another about this question of divorce. Jesus answers the question about divorce saying hey, look, you know, moses permitted you guys to divorce your wives because of the hardness of your hearts. But then he says but from the beginning it was not so, for he, you know, for he created them, male and female, and that for this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife and the two will become one flesh. And while God has joined together, let no man put a sunder.

Speaker 2: 35:48

Okay, now, jesus is teaching on divorce here. So he's not explicitly talking about the nature of heterosexual marriage, but he is assuming that. In his teaching he says from the beginning this was the way it was, this is the way God created it to be. You're going to have to deal with that. If you're going to have to deal with that, honestly, if you're going to try to make an argument that Jesus would have condoned gay marriage, then you're going to have to make. You're going to have to say that Jesus would have said oh yeah, from the beginning it wasn't so, but it's okay now. Right, I think that's a pretty straight, pretty big stretch. Paul is teaching about marriage and first Corinthians 70 says let every man have it, you know, have his wife, and let every wife have her husband. He's now again. He's teaching on marriage and divorce, but there's an assumption there.

Speaker 1: 36:41

Yeah, ephesians five.

Speaker 2: 36:43

Yeah, ephesians five a bride and groom. Yeah, so the images there are all heterosexual couples. If we get into what the Bible says about homosexuality itself not even just the question of marriage, but homosexuality well, you ready to open up some can of worms? We can go down that path, but I don't know, we probably we need to make a whole episode just on, just on that question.

Speaker 1: 37:05

It would be one.

Speaker 2: 37:07

So in this episode, just for a second time, we're our working. Yeah, our presupposition is that the Bible does not condone homosexual behavior, and by that we mean the same sex, sexual relations. Our presupposition in this episode is that the Bible does not condone that. We can make another episode later on on showing that to be the case and I can walk them through. I can walk our audience through all the different texts that are used and the arguments that are employed by pro LGBTQ theologians, let's say, that will try to argue that homosexuality is morally permitted in the scriptures.

Speaker 2: 37:43

So we'll just make that another episode.

Speaker 1: 37:45

Yeah, yeah. Okay, we have a lot to work on, all right.

Speaker 2: 37:47

So I've talked. I've talked a lot. You say something.

Speaker 1: 37:50

No, that's good. That's good Again, the buildup to what marriage actually is, what the wedding ceremony actually is. It is exactly that, and I did hear reference a lot the aspect of it's a celebration. Right, it's a celebration saying that I'm happy that this is happening for my friend or friends that are participating in this right. So that is the whole purpose of going to a wedding ceremony to celebrate the joining of these two people. So I talked a little bit about some of the reasons why people say it would be permissible to go, also why they should not go.

Speaker 1: 38:32

And then another aspect of this just how does this affect culture in general? Right, we've been going through this seasons, really, and decades, of the redefinition of what marriage is, which ultimately changes what a family looks like, and that is what we're seeing as this continues to happen in whether it be attending gay weddings or promoting gay weddings. It redefines what the family is and, to the point that you mentioned earlier, just Jesus always refers back to initial creation. From the beginning it was not so man, woman marriage, and then from that you have family, but if you have a gay marriage, it breaks down the family unit. I mean, that's, that's it. There's no more family if you have a gay couple because they can't reproduce. So it breaks down the definition of marriage, breaks down the definition of family and then again this has also impact on the culture because you start to lose civilization in a sense.

Speaker 1: 39:39

Now it's interesting because now you're seeing this, I don't.

Speaker 1: 39:43

I guess it's a trend where the more politically left or the non-believers are having less kids, to know kids, and then you have another generation that say no, we want to have big families, we want to have a family and they're reproducing. So it's going to be interesting to see the next 15, 20, 25 years how this new generation of Christians who are having families and how that's going to influence culture, because typically you're seeing them being, you know, at least people who identify as Christian. They're going to have an influence in the culture. So this it's going to be again interesting to see how this all plays out in the next couple of decades or whatever, how this aspect of traditional marriage versus gay marriage, versus transgender and all this other stuff, how that's going to impact our culture. So there are consequences from same sex households on the culture and we're seeing a lot of that right now. There's the sexual promiscuity, not that it wasn't there before, but again it just starts to change the whole conversation around what marriage actually is and what's acceptable or not.

Speaker 2: 40:51

Well, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute and say a Christian who thinks it's okay to attend a gay wedding might say look, I know that there's going to be effects on the culture. I know that gay marriage is not the biblical ideal, I know that there's going to be all kinds of these deleterious effects. But the question that I'm trying to answer for my loved one is that whether I can, whether I can attend the wedding or not, whether it's simply me to do so. So they might say, oh yeah, sam, you're right. Like there's all these effects, I agree with you, but why would it be wrong for me to attend this wedding here? Okay? So I think? I think maybe we could ask it this way Is it possible for someone to attend a wedding, a gay wedding, without showing approval, whether verbally or tacitly, to that union? Tacitly, being like silently?

Speaker 1: 41:44

Okay.

Speaker 2: 41:45

Can you attend a wedding without even giving tacit approval to that union? Or showing tacit approval, Aleister Begg would say yes, it's possible. I think we're saying no, it's not. If you don't mind me, let's back up to some of those arguments that you gave. What were? Some of the pro arguments to say that we or pro attending.

Speaker 1: 42:06

Yeah, showing love and acceptance towards LGBTQ, individuals.

Speaker 2: 42:12

Yeah, okay, so it's like you can. You can show love and acceptance. Is that what I think? Yeah, the language.

Speaker 1: 42:19

So go to. If you go to the wedding, to the gay wedding, then you're showing love and acceptance towards that individual. Yeah, that was wonderful.

Speaker 2: 42:25

And I think a response to that and I think you said this was there's, that's I think we get. Let's ask it, let's put this our response on a question Is that the only way that you can show love to a gay couple by attending the wedding and by love. I think we're assuming a Christian sort of love, like we want to love them into the kingdom and to repent of their sin and to come back to or if they were, you know, if they were Christian, but to come to Christ.

Speaker 1: 42:52

Yeah, okay, by the way that's probably not the first time that you've brought this up. You know what I mean. Yeah, it's if you've had that conversation with a friend and they're inviting you again, they're looking for you to accept. It's kind of that, that small push, like I'll get you to believe this at some point, that it's not as bad as you think it is. And once you get there, then that's a W for them and not that we should see necessarily as a win or a loss. But the idea is like is this really the first time that you're, you're, you're going to show them love by attending something so big and so important to to what the Bible teaches about marriage and about family? So there's other opportunities and you know, I think that's what you were kind of gain, that is, that there's so many more opportunities to show love to this person, as opposed to just going to that wedding.

Speaker 1: 43:44

And again, like I said, you could have those conversations with them beforehand, because they know what you believe. I mean, if you've been vocal about your stance on marriage and family, like they know what you're doing, they know. So it's almost in a sense, disrespectful to ask someone to put them in that kind of moral dilemma of should I attend my friend's wedding or not, even though I know what they believe I mean it may be, but I would say that if someone is asking me to do something that they know morally opposed to, I would feel like, well, it's kind of disrespectful, like I wouldn't ask you to do something that I know that you are morally opposed to, like it doesn't make any sense. So there's something else. There's an ulterior motive to that.

Speaker 2: 44:32

Yeah, well, you know what might be going on. There might be this moral calculus going on and inside the mind of a Christian, and that's Well, if I, if I don't attend the wedding, I think, I think it's a fear of consequences that follow.

Speaker 2: 44:42

Yeah if I don't attend the wedding, there could be some negative consequences that would follow for my relationship with that person. But if I don't attend the wedding, they they might break off fellowship with me. They might, they might think I, I no longer love them, or something like that. And I would just say, I would just say to those Christians that yeah, that's a possibility, but we don't, we don't determine right and wrong by the consequences that would follow. It's good from something that that is consequentialist thinking. It's not that we don't consider consequences as Christians, but there, that is not the primary Means by which we determine right and wrong. It's good.

Speaker 2: 45:21

We determine right and wrong by by the the will of God, by the commands of God and by the character traits that we develop along the way, which we'll kind of get to in the episode of biblical resiliency. Okay, but yeah, so we don't. We don't, we don't determine, like, what should I do, what ought I to do, based on what possible negative consequences would follow. We do the right thing and let the consequences Let the chips fall where they may. In that sense, so I think you know if we're we're talking about oh, I could lose my relationship with this person, but being clear about about your position and Know, recognizing the possibility, what I would say is, when you the, the implication of going to a wedding is that you are giving this task, that approval, to the union.

Speaker 1: 46:13

Even if you say you're not, you're a.

Speaker 2: 46:14

So like you said, your attendance there is interpreted as that, that you are in fact participating in this celebration. That could, that could have it's I could that could have equally or worse negative Consequences. So you don't want to get into this calculus game trying to determine which consequences are worse.

Speaker 2: 46:33

Just do the right thing, that you know to be the right thing to do, or that you are at least you can have confidence Is the right thing, and that comes. That comes down to another matter of Christian liberty. Some people try to put this into the Catholic in the category of Christian liberty right.

Speaker 2: 46:46

But I would say it, can you. Can you have confidence that attending a gay wedding is not sin? Hmm, and I I highly doubt that most people could. Yeah, if you press them on it, I would say they're not confident that it's not sin and if you're not confident, then you should avoid it. This is close this is basic Christian ethics 101.

Speaker 2: 47:07

So again, I wouldn't put gay weddings in the in the context of Christian liberty because of the definition that we're talking about, mm-hmm. But even if it were, I would say it is highly imprudent. Yeah, to to attend one, but yeah, no, I agree, brother, and you know behavior is a language.

Speaker 1: 47:27

I mean there's I think it was a dr John Devaney who kind of mentioned that behavior is a language and I think it's like 90 percent or 85 percent of the way that we communicate is through non verbals. Your attendance communicate something more than what you say about something. So I think that's something that we need to to pay attention to, and I like the point that you made about do the right thing.

Speaker 1: 47:48

Yeah consequences are gonna happen. You can't and you can't calculate what those outcomes are actually going to be. You know I'll make I'll make one final point here before passing off to you. But there is this aspect of that I've been thinking a lot about because I've had maybe two or three friends throughout my lifetime who have Kind of. You know they chose the gay lifestyle. They had talked to me about it where I walked through it with them as they were kind of wrestling with it.

Speaker 1: 48:15

But what I started to find is that as that became more apparent in the friendship, we moved further and further away from each other because it was such a core part of who we are, as you know, as a believer it was. It was interfering in a sense with my closeness to Christ because the people that you surround yourself Influence you and think they were him. For him he didn't feel he could be. His wording is authentic self around me because it conflicted so Strongly with what I believe. So eventually you're just moving in a different direction because of what you each believe about your identity.

Speaker 1: 48:52

So it brings to question that whole idea of you. Know, non-christian friends I think should be Scares. I don't think you would have an overabundance of non-Christian friends. Not necessarily by by choice, like intentionally seeking not to be friends with people, but it's just your values, the people that you have strong values. With that, corally, with how you live, you're gonna be closer to them than you are with someone who lives in an opposite Lifestyle. That's just how it is. So there's all those factors that come into play. But to Tim's point, do the right thing and let the chis fall where they make. I will honor the right.

Speaker 2: 49:34

Yeah, let me give. Let me give a really good biblical analogy that I think will help here. Okay, because in dealing with the issues of Christian liberty and whether something is publicly permissible or not, there's a really good example that we can use from Paul's First letter to the Corinthians. First Corinthians eight versus first Corinthians ten. These two chapters talk.

Speaker 2: 50:02

Paul is addressing the issue of eating meat offered to idols. Okay, if you were to read both of these chapters out of their context, it would look like Paul is contradicting himself. Because in in chapter eight, he says yeah, it's okay, it's like eat me offered idols, just don't eat it in front of your Christian brother who might be offended by that. Don't, even if it meets offer to you. Don't say is this offer to idols for conscience sake, just just if you're okay, but they just eat it, you know. But then in chapter 10 he says don't eat me, it offered idols, because don't you know that was sacrificed to a demon. Okay, that's pretty serious, right? So what is he doing here? Well, in in chapter 10? Paul is instructing them hey, when Eating meat offered to idols, in that, in that context of the chapter 10, is when you would go in, participate in the sacrifices themselves at the pagan festivals and temples.

Speaker 2: 50:56

When you go and you participate in the feasts of the meat that's being offered to idols, you are participating in the you're communing with demons, is what he's saying, but that so they would, the pagans would, would make these sacrifices and they would put the meat on the altar that would burn and you know they would basically be offered as like the meal for the, the god that they were worshipping. And Paul is saying Behind that idol is a demon and if you are participating in that feast, then you are communing with demons and Christians ought not to do that. So that's his teaching in 1st Corinthians 10, two chapters earlier. When he's addressing the issue of meat offered to these idols, he's talking about it in the time in the context of a marketplace, where. So, after the meat was used in the festival, if it wasn't consumed there, it was later taken to the marketplace to just be sold to anyone who wanted it. And Paul is saying in that context it like some some.

Speaker 2: 51:56

Christians are going to worry oh, you shouldn't eat meat offered to idols. And Paul is saying, hey, look Like it's meat on the marketplace. If you're okay with it, just buy it and you don't have to act, don't, don't worry about, just, don't even ask. Like just it's me, just buy it. You're not participating by buying a meat in the marketplace. You are not participating in the evil acts that someone did in a pagan festival that preceded that.

Speaker 2: 52:20

Okay, that's sort of a another application we might think to boycotts. Sometimes it's like if I, if I buy pepsi, am I supporting the thing that pepsi does over here? Yeah, yeah, that's a whole nother issue, but you know, we can get into that. Sorry, pepsi, I mean.

Speaker 2: 52:36

Just as an analogy okay, um, when it comes to gay weddings, we could think of it this way um, if a wedding is a celebration and you attend that celebration and I even includes food Okay, you attend that celebration. Are you participating in the celebration? And the answer is yes, you are, yes, attending a wedding. You are participating in the wedding, which is itself a celebration. Now, that would be different than Going to dinner with a, with a gay couple that you know because You're friends with them and you're trying to witness to them. That would sort of be this other example of meat in the marketplace You're, you're meeting people in public and In the, in the general, just going abouts of everything, but you're not going to the pagan festival.

Speaker 2: 53:24

And participating in and meet sacrifice to idols.

Speaker 1: 53:27

Okay so that's the analogy that would give that could help us here. Absolutely no, that's good. That's good and you know, hopefully. Yes, haven't Turned off the episode already. I have some book record and stayed, and stayed till the end because you know that our friend tim is going to give you some good book to wrestle with these ideas, because we are so limited in our time because we could talk about this forever. But, tim, hand off those Book recommendations so our audience can know. Okay.

Speaker 2: 53:57

Okay, if you want, if you want some very clear, punchy arguments like just straight down the line, like this is my, my, a phd advisor. His name is Daniel Heimbach. He wrote a book called true sexual ethics and I mean it's just like a sledgehammer like you open it up and it's like what part?

Speaker 1: 54:18

of your skull. Do you want me to crack?

Speaker 2: 54:20

today. Okay, so true, sexual ethics by Daniel Heimbach. The other one is a just a masterpiece of a book Called the bible and homosexual practice and that's by Robert Gaknen, g a, g and on. He is a conservative evangelical scholar but it absolutely demolishes All of these biblical people would put forward arguments about. The bible doesn't condemn homosexuality In all that stuff, this book. If you're going to get any book about what the Biblical backgrounds and culture, this is the book to get.

Speaker 2: 55:01

And he actually responded to alice to beg on twitter you really, oh, yeah, I follow him on twitter and he he responded to begs arguments you can't game with skating, or, oh yeah, skating and sporting it mildly. Yeah, yeah. So those are two, two books you could get.

Speaker 1: 55:15

Okay, good, good Um.

Speaker 2: 55:19

Heimbach is spelled h, e, I, m, b, a, c, h yeah.

Speaker 1: 55:25

And yeah, guys. So Again, if you're in this position, you know, hopefully timonite did a good job of explaining the implications of attending Um a gay wedding and what that would mean, not just for your own Christian walk but for others as well, and hopefully we clarify kind of the the bible's position. More than anything, right, because that's really what we're trying to Um Propose here is is what does the bible teach about this particular topic? And obviously we look at it from a Social, cultural standpoint as well as how does this affect culture, how does it affect your fate, how does it affect the people around you? So not an easy topic and I'm sure you know you felt a certain way about a struggle this conversation, but that's okay. I mean, this is, this is part of wrestling with these difficult topics. So we have more difficult questions in topics to cover in a couple of weeks, but hopefully this one gets the Mind going and the hearts wrestling and if you have questions or want to just kind of reach out To the next one, all right. All right, guys.

Speaker 2: 56:35

Bye Thanks week.