Ep. 12 - Do We Have Soulmates?

Ever wonder about the mysterious allure of soulmates and their place within the tapestry of human connection? Our latest episode, featuring guest insights, takes you on an enchanting journey, exploring the philosophical and historical roots of the soulmate concept, the role of physical attraction in relationships, and the intricate dance of intimacy, passion, and commitment that shapes our most cherished bonds.

We set out to challenge the cultural expectations that skew our perceptions of love, with a candid discussion about the practical realities of seeking 'the one' and how the stories of older generations can guide the romances of tomorrow. The Biblical perspective on marriage, while not explicitly mentioning soulmates, reveals a complex view of romantic relationships that transcends simplistic notions of predestined partners, holding a place for deep and enduring love instead.

Ending on a note of empowerment, we address the societal challenges in building strong, intimate bonds and offer a fresh perspective that soulmates are crafted through shared experiences and overcoming trials together. This episode is an invitation to singles and couples alike to reconsider the concept of soulmates as we navigate the intricate and beautiful landscape of love and relationships with hope and insight. Join us and be part of a conversation that promises to inspire and provoke thought in equal measure.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

All right, everyone. Welcome back to the Psych and Theo podcast. Sam and Tim here, ready for another great to discuss. We got a good one today. Oh, everyone's going to love this one. This one you want to share with your friends, share with your family, share with everyone that you know, because you're going to encounter, maybe, some differences on this.

Speaker 2: 0:19

I would wager that every single person has felt what we're going to talk about today.

Speaker 1: 0:24

Every single person is focused Maybe're going to talk about today. Every single person has felt this. Maybe you've had this conversation Most likely you've had this conversation, but maybe it hasn't sounded in the way that we're going to discuss today.

Speaker 2: 0:31

I would say I would say every. I would go even further and say every single person has asked a question about this in their life like an introspective question every single person and if they say, no, I haven't, you're lying and I'm going to bring you up on church discipline.

Speaker 1: 0:47

Oh man, so what? So what is this topic that we're going to be discussing? That everyone should know. I wonder if you guys could guess it.

Speaker 2: 0:54

Well, if they've clicked on the episode, they'll see the title. Yeah, so we already gave you the answer.

Speaker 1: 0:59

Sorry, it was just a random moment. Do we have a soulmate? That's probably what made you click on this episode.

Speaker 2: 1:08

Oh yeah, I wonder if this is our big breakout dude. It could be, it could be. This could be our shot. This is our 15 minutes of fame that hopefully lasts longer than 15 minutes, because this episode is at least an hour and you keep prepared, man.

Speaker 1: 1:20

I'm looking forward to it, I'm ready to go off on some things.

Speaker 2: 1:30

So, you guys want to listen to this episode, yeah, so, uh, I want to. I want to. Full disclosure, I want to preface some things. Um, I am not coming at this from someone who claims to have found the soulmate. You know, I, I'm a, I'm a, I am a bachelor. I'm not going to go on the show, but I am a bachelor, okay, okay. So please do no, no, no, no, no. So, um, I am not speaking, I won't speak. I want to be careful not to be presumptuous and speak about this from a, from a vantage point that I don't have. Okay, uh, and sam, you have your own experiences. I'm sure you could speak to as well on this. So, um, I just want to give our audience that take that I'm coming.

Speaker 2: 2:05

I'm very interested in where this concept comes from and what it does to us as human beings, whether you're married or single or not. I'm very interested in whether there's validity to this concept or not.

Speaker 1: 2:18

Yeah, the concept of soulmate.

Speaker 2: 2:20

This concept of soulmate, because one of my pet peeves and here we go, I'm already going off this concept of soulmate, because one of my pet peeves and here we go, I'm already going off One of my pet peeves is evangelicals. We're the worst at dismissing people in our culture who are kind of groping around for meaning in life, love and connection yeah, love and connection and grabbing onto these, these kind of concepts, and thinking this is what I need. Evangelicals, we're some of the worst at dismissing those people and it's almost like just giving these simplistic plastic bumper sticker one size fits all solutions, almost like just slap a bible verse on it and they're like I've answered your question. Uh, therefore, you shouldn't have any other like existential problems now in life. You know like we are the worst for that, and so I want to challenge our audience.

Speaker 2: 3:12

You might've seen the title of this episode and thought like, well, of course we don't have soulmates. You know that's, that's dumb, or like the Bible doesn't say anything about that, or whatever. And I'm going to challenge you that this concept is not as crazy as you think. We're probably going to come down on the same side that you have already concluded, but it's not as crazy as people think, and we should not take such a quick, dismissive view of the concept, because if so many people as we said I think every person has asked this question about themselves in their life, so that is pointing to something about the human soul, yeah, and what the mind is doing, and so we shouldn't be dismissive of it. If every single person on the planet asks a question like this, maybe it's important to step back and consider how we should think about it, rather than just being like the dismissive, like well, I don't, I don't think there's anything to say about that man.

Speaker 2: 4:08

So whatever man, like whatever, yeah, yeah yeah, there's only been like hundreds of philosophers throughout thousands of years who've thought about it. Okay, yeah so I'm interested.

Speaker 1: 4:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah okay.

Speaker 2: 4:19

So what do we mean by soulmate? All right, um now I'm gonna talk a lot here, but if you got questions, interject and stop me, okay okay, yeah, because I do.

Speaker 1: 4:28

You got stuff to say as well. Yeah, and honestly, I would say this before you start when we brought up the topic about you know, is there a soulmate like? I knew what I thought about it and what I believed about it, but I didn't. I didn't scoff at it or think that it was a ridiculous question, it's just more. Here's where I stand. But as we were talking, like, oh, like, so preparing yourself to have an open mind to the conversation, because there, that's what happened to me as right now is. I have my own thoughts about it and we'll elaborate as we continue speaking, but there's this openness to it. As you hear more and more, you're like oh, there's some interesting stuff here, so yeah, Might you say that I red-pilled you on this concept, maybe.

Speaker 1: 5:09

Maybe that's the end of the show yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, all right.

Speaker 2: 5:13

So the idea of a soulmate, it's this idea that there is someone out there. It is a person or an entity, let's say there's someone out there that is the perfect fit for me. And by fit we mean that my connecting with this person on a deep emotional level, romantic level usually we throw that in there falling in love with this person, that will give me this lasting, abiding sense of happiness, fulfillment, peace, wholeness to myself. Like I will finally find my purpose in life, like life can almost begin at that point. Before that, before that that connection, uh, I'm sort of struggling in life and I'm kind of groping around in the dark and I can't find my way because I'm missing my soulmate, I'm incomplete in some way, there's some piece of me that's missing.

Speaker 2: 6:11

So that's what, when the idea of a soulmate comes from that that there's in all human beings, we feel this sense of something's missing, yeah, from us, and we long for a connection with whatever that is, and philosophers throughout time have had theories about what this is okay.

Speaker 2: 6:28

So, um, we see this and we see this come up in culture too pop culture, you know even though it's an idea that we can easily dismiss or make fun of or whatever, because we live in a fallen world and we're aware of like of of broken marriages and broken relationships and things like that. But you see this ideal come up all the time in movies. Okay, ladies, the notebook. Okay, if you've seen the notebook, you know what I'm talking about. There's these two people that meet when they're young and they go through life and they're separated at certain times and certain circumstances. And they go through life and they're separated at certain times and certain circumstances, but they feel there's this deep connection that transcends all other relationships throughout their entire life, and so that's the idea of soulmate, and then they finally sort of come together at the end.

Speaker 2: 7:16

The Bachelor, the show, the Bachelor. Yeah, I want to find the one. Maybe I should go on the show. Don't know, you know, maybe I should audition, yeah audition I would make it, I wouldn't stand a chance. Well, you know, you never know man yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:31

There's some people on there I'm like, oh yeah yeah, so so the bachelor, bachelor and bachelorette, like one person going through, you know a litany of people like a, like a half dozen eggs or two dozen egg carton. You know just cracking one egg after trying to find the one that works. Dating apps as well. Dating apps are all about finding the one for you. Well, some of them are like that Tinder. Tinder is not so much that way. So some of them are. Some of them do have no pretense. They're just like hey, we're here for hookups, but some of them are promising that you'll find the one. You'll find that meeting. Let me give you some stats. Now you might be thinking surely there's not a whole lot, Surely there's not a lot of people who think this. Brace yourself.

Speaker 2: 8:20

Okay. So there's a YouGov poll that was conducted uh, three years ago this is 2021 15 000 us adults were in this survey. Okay, 15 000 us adults 60 percent of americans believe in the idea of a soulmate. Six out of ten okay, about a quarter, about a quarter of them say they don't believe in such a concept. So there's 6% that say they do believe it, 25% say they don't, and then 18 are unsure. So 18 are kind of like in the middle, okay.

Speaker 1: 8:54

That's very well.

Speaker 2: 8:55

Um more. 64% of women are more likely to believe it than than men. So 60, 64%. So two and almost two, and three women. Yeah, Two out of every three women. 64%. Almost 2 in 3 women. 55% of men say they believe in a perfect soulmate that's interesting.

Speaker 2: 9:09

I thought they would be a lot lower so you're looking at a population where more than half of the population believes in this idea what's the age range? Let's see didn't give me the age range just adults. Yeah, yeah, yeah um, and and here's another interesting a person's relationship status actually impacts their belief about this. Okay, correct, yeah, yeah, so, uh, americans who are in a what's called a civil partnership, not a marriage 60, 66 of them.

Speaker 2: 9:44

So that's, that's two and three two out of every three say that they they believe, uh, that there's a soulmate, whereas 60 percent of those in marriage so it's still pretty high like and even in marriages they say, oh yeah, there's a soulmate, hopefully they think they're the other 40 yeah yeah, uh, 50 percent of singles say that there's a soulmate, and this I. This is what I find the most interesting 52 of divorcees say there's still a soulmate 52 52.

Speaker 2: 10:14

So even even people who come from like broken marriages still hold to this idea that there's a soulmate at least half half of them do. I found that pretty, pretty shocking, honestly. So if you're looking at these stats as a Christian, if you're looking at these stats, we live in a society that is holding onto an idea that's deeply meaningful for them and they're searching for a connection that they believe they will find in a romantic relationship that will give them this sense of wholeness and meaning and purpose in life. That's what you need to see in this data, not that we live a bunch around, a bunch of dummies that holding on to some archaic concept or some overly idealistic romantic thing that surely they just need to grow up. Okay, that's not the conclusion you should draw from this data. The conclusion is that people are looking for something.

Speaker 1: 11:05

Yeah, every, all of them are looking for something okay, here's, here's a, I guess something that popped up as you were mentioning those things. So I don't know if it's just the um, uh, social side, but if that's the case, well, it's interesting. If those numbers are so high, or since they are so high, you would think that there's a part in there that would ask why hasn't they, haven't that person been found? Meaning is the idea that having that idea that there's a soulmate contributing to the lacks of success in marriages? Meaning people will date and they'll say, oh, you know, they were great, but there was this other thing that was just kind of off. So at least another relationship. And again, it's that expectation, okay yeah of.

Speaker 1: 11:53

Is that leading to these broken types of relationships is the question that came up for me. I don't know, I mean, as you keep on sharing again yeah, that's interesting, like the idea itself could be causing causing broken relationships because it's setting up some sort of idealism in their mind.

Speaker 1: 12:08

Yeah, there was this lady who did. She was a reporter, a journalist and she did like a report on that. And she asked man, if a girl met 80% of your qualification or things that you would want in a woman, if she met 80% of that, would you marry her, continue on in a second date?

Speaker 2: 12:26

this is after her state my first, my first bulk at that is what is the other 20 percent? The?

Speaker 1: 12:32

other tape? Yeah right, so I don't know. It's yeah exactly. What are those things that are?

Speaker 2: 12:37

yeah, what's being left out? You?

Speaker 1: 12:39

know the three characters that they gave was she has to be cute enough, good conversationalist. And what was the third one?

Speaker 2: 12:48

it's escaping me. For christians we would say like fundamental beliefs, like yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:52

So we would say I mean and to your point, we talked about this earlier like christians, I think, often say attraction is not that big of a deal, but it is. I think it is a factor. Everyone considers that as a fact.

Speaker 2: 13:04

Yeah, yeah I like what, I like what? Uh, years ago I was listening to a sermon series by matt chandler on this um and uh, he said physical attraction. It was a sermon series on song of solomon, actually and he said physical attraction is a prerequisite for merit for relationships like it. It has to exist, yeah, and anyone who claims that it like oh, I don't, don't, I didn't care about that one Like or like you shouldn't care about that, because it's like they're just lying to themselves Like some some like person who's been married 20 years and they're telling a young person like ah, that's not that important.

Speaker 2: 13:35

Like, oh, really, is that how you approach relationships when you were younger? Like is that how you chose? Yeah, please, please call her over here and tell her please. Um, so yeah, it's, and jordan peterson also talks about this too. It's like, yeah, you have to be like. Physical attraction is important, so sometimes evangelical sorry, I'm taking your- airtime evangelicals often contradict themselves, too on this.

Speaker 2: 13:57

On this subject, they'll talk about physical attractiveness not being that important, but then they'll talk about the importance of sex and marriage. You can't have one without the other. It's true, these two are not. You got okay. You got to be, consistent. You said there too yeah, you got to be consistent. So evangelical. Sometimes we just they tie that, we tie ourselves in knots, we contradict ourselves because we're afraid of not having the right answer. And it's okay to just not know.

Speaker 1: 14:22

But and the emphasis is highly on and this is why maybe they they downplay the physical attraction part is because they say with age you start losing attraction. But you know you you mentioned an example earlier when you're building something together, like you build also attraction along with that. So it's not just the physical attraction, but then you're also emotionally connected, spiritually connected, mentally connected. So all of those things contribute to attraction. Peace.

Speaker 2: 14:47

Okay, we're slow cooking it. Yeah, we're going to set it up, okay, okay.

Speaker 1: 14:50

Okay.

Speaker 2: 14:51

Okay, so you were going to say something, and then I can get into where this idea comes from in history.

Speaker 1: 14:55

Yeah, I think it was just that. So that question came up for me as to okay, if there is the belief that there's a Soma, if there is the belief that there's a SOMA, is that a contributing factor to the number of failed relations? Because you'll have some people who will find their top three things in a person, at least for men, whatever that may be, and they'll be okay with that. This reporter asked women the same thing Would you be okay with 80%? And they said no. And she said why? And I said because I'd be settling. So would you be?

Speaker 1: 15:27

settling if you only had that amount. So for guys, they take a different approach with that. But again, is that idea of having a so many contributing to that? We don't know, because it's also a high number for men, the 50%. So there's a lot to discuss there.

Speaker 2: 15:41

Sam, this sounds like a great dissertation research project.

Speaker 1: 15:46

I'll share with you my dissertation idea.

Speaker 2: 15:48

Okay, audience, you need to go out and comment and say, Sam, you need to write your dissertation on this very idea. I would love to see like an intake form where you're trying to decipher, trying to like, not trick, but trying to discern if someone believes in the idea without having them come out and explicitly say that they believe in it. Like, because someone could say oh no, I don't believe in the idea and then you ask some other questions and you're like you actually, do you actually?

Speaker 2: 16:13

do believe in this idea. Yeah, so the self-denial of the soulmate, oh, that's oh. The self-denial of the soulmate, oh, man, that's like.

Speaker 1: 16:22

That's your book.

Speaker 2: 16:23

No, that's your book, my friend.

Speaker 2: 16:26

Okay. So where does this idea come from? Okay, it's not new and it's not crazy. I want people to take that away from this episode. The idea of a soulmate, it's not new and it's not crazy. Okay, it doesn't mean it's right, but it's not new and it's not crazy, okay. So we need to empathize and sympathize with people who maybe have this longing in their heart and not sure what to do with it. All right, so the main roots of this idea stretch all the way back to greek philosophy. Now, the term soulmate first popped up. The term actual, like english soulmate came from a letter written by an english poet named samuel taylor coleridge uh, like the early, not samuel landa.

Speaker 2: 17:07

Not, yeah, not sam landa another great author, uh wrote a lot on the soulmate. Uh, you know, if I may, speak prophetically about it anyway.

Speaker 2: 17:15

So 1800s is when this idea in english starts cropping up in poetry and literature. So you can think like if it's coming in poetry it's going to be connected to romance and idealism and all these other things, um, but it goes all the way back to, like, greek philosophy. So, uh, one of the earliest, so plato, plato, kind of mentions the idea of soulmate and he's critical of it. Um, for much of the same reasons, like a person today might be critical of some of the practical difficulties with it. But there was a? Um, a playwriter who's mentioned. I think he's mentioned in, uh, some of aristotle's writings, um, but his name is aristophanes and he wrote his idea of the soulmate is probably better. The concept is translated as true friend. Okay.

Speaker 2: 18:01

So it's like the true friend. The Greek word is andragathos, so andragathos, like you know, it's two words there. Andres is where we get like brother. Okay, so this concept means basically one soul dwelling in two places, or two bodies.

Speaker 2: 18:26

So the Greek idea was that and this goes into Greek mythology a little bit too so you know, take that as you will, but essentially the Greek idea was that human beings were these whole creatures at one point, and then the gods decided to split them in two, and so the soul got split in two, and in order for human beings to feel that love and wholeness again, like I'm a complete entity, they had to go find the second half of their soul.

Speaker 2: 18:54

So, there was a male and female component to the whole humanness and so of course this is like Greek mythology. So the Greeks kind of debated this, but that was essentially the idea is that the soul is somehow split and I need to go find the piece of the soul where it is in the world. Now, judaism also has this concept. It's a mixed bag in Judaism. When I say Judaism I mean like rabbinic literature, both from the second temple period this is like the centuries before Christ and then especially later centuries in the AD period after Christ. The rabbinic literature. They're kind of all over the map on this idea. But essentially the idea is that there's an ultimate connection with the creator, so like the soul. If you think about the word soul in Hebrew, that comes from the word nefesh in the early Genesis creation account. So when God, when it says God breathes into man the breath of life, he became a living soul. The key word there is Nefesh.

Speaker 2: 20:11

For soul, yeah, it means spirit, and so for the Hebrews, the ultimate source of where the soul longs to be reconnected is the creator. So that's very first and primary is the like. My soul longs to be reconnected and reabsorbed in with the creator, not like, not like monism, or like yeah, but but like that's big, that's that my soul comes. My soul originates from the creator. That's what it longs for. However, god looks down and says it's not good that man be alone. So he makes eve from adam. This is the creation account. So if you think about where, where did the greeks get this idea of the soul being split? Well, think about the genesis creation account. Eve is made from adam, and adam looks at her and says bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, okay. So he sees like she is, she's of me and she's part of me, and the two become one flesh so this isn't a like the greeks weren't crazy.

Speaker 2: 21:14

Okay, they were misguided. You, you know they were living under false gods, okay, but it's not a crazy idea that the two become one. That's in the Bible. So the Jews how they would make sense of this in terms of romantic relationships, is that, if they were, some Jews were predeterminists, like predestinationists.

Speaker 2: 21:35

Some were not, but essentially a lot of the rabbinic literature would view this as, like your, your first marriage, like the first marriage is sort of what the person is intended to be the soulmate, um, like, if, like the predestinationist kind of rabbis would would say, when a man is born, a decree goes out from heaven that the daughter of this other woman or a man is supposed to be his, his wife and so, and then the two of them are supposed to uh, marry and have children, all that stuff. But of course they know, like, people get divorced, people don't meet, people die, all kinds of things happen, and so there's remedies that need to be made. So they didn't have this like fatalistic or nihilistic notion that if I don't meet my soulmate then I won't have meaning in life. They didn't have that. But it ultimately like, soul comes from creator, so my soul longs to be connected, but the creator made a helper for me and I need to be connected to my helper in this life too.

Speaker 1: 22:35

I love that.

Speaker 2: 22:35

Tim. Yeah Cool.

Speaker 2: 22:37

Now the mystics, the Christian mystics kind of picked this up later. Origin of Alexandria he's a church father from the third century. He's one of the earliest ones to talk about soulmate concept. So again, again, evangelicals, if you're listening to this, this is not new and it's not crazy. Okay, now Origin, we don't have to get into those. But, um, he, you know he talked about the soulmate concept in relation to union with christ. Um, and so he, he, he was an allegorist. He would read the scriptures through an allegoric, uh, interpretation. I don't agree with that interpretation, interpretive method. But so he's one of the first to take like song of solomon, which is a romance book, and equate it to my, to one's union with Christ. So the soul, just as a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife and the two become one flesh, so the soul will eventually want to leave this world and cleave to Christ and never be separated from Christ again. So yeah, same sort of concept. So yeah, like the Christians, the Jews wrestled with this concept all through the ages. They wrestled with this while dealing with the practical side of living in a fallen world, with broken homes, broken marriages, death and disease and all kinds of other things that might happen. Yeah, when we get to the secular age, this is where it gets interesting and this is where we can maybe talk about where we find ourselves now and I want to hear some opinions that you have on this.

Speaker 2: 24:05

I was listening to a sermon by Tim Keller many years ago. This is a phenomenal sermon, so if you want to go listen to it, it's called the Struggle for Love. You can actually just look it up on YouTube and you'll find it really easily. And it's a sermon on Jacob and Rachel and Leah. Okay, it's a sermon about that romance story in the Bible. It's a really good sermon and an interesting note you know just side quest Everyone, you know people tend to focus on Jacob and Rachel like that, how Jacob falls in love with Rachel right away, and Tim Keller has a lot of he kind of points out like that's actually there's a lot of problems going on there. You got to go listen to the sermon too. I'm going to put it up.

Speaker 2: 24:48

Yeah, but but a lot of people don't realize like and my Old Testament professor at Heinsohn pointed this out when I was a freshman. He said you know, jacob was so devoted to Rachel early on but over time Leah is the one who bears him the most children and in the end he chooses to be buried next to Leah. Really yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:10

So it's really interesting because Rachel dies much earlier in life and Jacob continues on with Leah and then he decides to be buried next to Leah. So anyway, that's an interesting tidbit in and of itself. But in the sermon Keller he cites this secular atheist I think he's a philosopher, sociologist, named Ernest Becker, and Becker wrote this book called the Denial of Death, of death, and it's all about secular, uh, secularists trying to grapple with meaning in life and finding solutions to this emptiness that they feel. See the problem with secular society, like secularism being like the, a society that's devoid of religious commitments, like a christian society, is a society. This is a society that's inculcated and committed to the Christian religion.

Speaker 2: 25:56

Let's say secular society says we have no, we have no prior commitments. Okay, so a secular society where there's no religious commitments, it's secularism itself, becomes a religion, and when that happens, you society divorces. The source of ultimate meaning. Like religion, the creator, the belief in God, would provide people that source of ultimate meaning. Like religion, the creator, the belief in god, would provide people that sense of ultimate meaning and purpose and trajectory in their life. Well, when that goes away, people have to look for it somewhere else. They need to replace that with something else.

Speaker 2: 26:31

And so becker talks about this in his book the denial of death. And um, he goes on to say that we have come to put an outsized emphasis on romance as the key driver in our marital relationships, whereas ancient cultures didn't do that. Romance still played a part. Um, it was an important thing, but it didn't. It wasn't. The main driver of, like, my meaning and purpose in life is to find the one true love. But in modern society, because we live in a secular world where we have, people are not compelled to have religious commitments. Now they look for that meaning and purpose in the romantic partner or the quest for the romantic partner. So let me read you this quote and then I'm feeling an emotion, yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:16

so I'm going to read you this quote and then I'm going to kick it to you, okay, for just as we get into some practical things. But Becker says this. He says we still need that's we secularists. We still need to feel that our life in the scheme of things excuse me, let me back up we still need to feel that our life matters in the scheme of things. We still want to merge ourselves with some higher self-absorbing meaning and trust and gratitude. But if we no longer have God, how are we to do this?

Speaker 2: 27:49

One of the first ways that occurred to the modern person was the romantic solution, the self-glorification that we need in our inmost being. We now look for in the lover partner. What is it that we want when we elevate the lover partner to this position? We want to be, we want to be rid of our faults, we want to be rid of our feeling of nothingness, we want to be justified, we want to know that our existence hasn't been in vain. We want redemption, nothing less.

Speaker 2: 28:22

So Becker concludes that the modern quest of the secular person to find the soulmate is actually an inner quest for redemption. And that's where we find ourselves. And the problem, I think, is now, because people are searching and groping for that soulmate. There's all kinds of people and groups that are willing to offer them a solution to that problem, and that means cults like New Age cults or modern, like kind of secular cults, like Twin Flames that's one that's come up in recent years. Netflix just did a documentary on them where the soulmate is called the twin. Twin flame is the new title of soulmate that people are using.

Speaker 2: 29:11

But, yeah, so there's lots of groups that they are, they are exploiting, they know like charlatans and cult leaders know that people are yearning for this and they will offer a solution to them. So again, evangelicals, don't be dismissive of people who are looking for this, because if you dismiss them, they just might run to the arms of someone who gives them a false hope and a false answer. So that's why we shouldn't be dismissive of people who are looking for this meaning in their life in that way. Okay, so I talked a lot dismissive of people who are looking for this meaning in their life in that way.

Speaker 2: 29:42

Okay, so all right. So I talked a lot. That's the problem. Where we find ourselves is a lot of people believe in the soulmate. It's not a new idea, it's not crazy. It has a long history. It's connected to our sense of purpose and meaning in life. We live in a secular society that has divorced religion from life, and so people are looking to fill that hole with something else, and that looks to be the romantic partner. So what does that do for relationships? What impact does it have on relationships? Maybe people in a relationship, but then younger people who are looking for their partner.

Speaker 1: 30:19

Yeah, I remember many years ago I had a professor who said that he enjoyed listening to secular love songs. And you think of secular love songs today and you say well, why, what's the big deal with listening to those types of songs? And he says it speaks to both the yearning of one's heart and also the pain of one's heart, like what one desires is also the source of pain. Everyone wants to be in a relationship, everyone wants to have a soulmate, but the pain is that you're not finding what you're looking for. And I think this goes back kind of to that argument I was making earlier about is it setting you up for a false expectation? And I guess it comes down to how you define Soma. You've given a lot of great historical background to what it means and how it has this really significant connection to our relationship with God and our relationship with each other, because God created us for him and also for each other in marriage and that connection and also in community, right. But when you sit down and think about, I think maybe the misunderstanding has been how people define the one or the soulmate, and the way that I've seen it play out in culture is it's this person who perfectly matches you. So what does that mean from a practical standpoint? Oh, we have to be complimentary in regards to our personalities. If I'm an extrovert, they need to be an introvert, so we can compliment that way. Or if I'm an INTJ, they need to be an ENTF or ENTP or something like that. So we're trying to find all these ways that, to us, demonstrate a oneness, a soulmate, the one right. So I think it's going to come down to how do you define finding the one, or what a soulmate is and I think maybe you'll get to the illustration a little bit later but this idea of, I think what I was looking at in scripture is this aspect of commitment. You'll appreciate this as I share.

Speaker 1: 32:21

There's one philosopher, psychologist, that created what's called the Sternberg's theory of love, three components of love, and he talks about these are the main components Intimacy, which is often the feelings of closeness, connectedness and bondedness. The second one is passion, which involves feelings and desires that lead to physical attraction, romance, sexual consummation. And then decision and commitment, which involves feelings that lead a person to remain with someone and move toward shared goals. And I think so. What he says is, if you have these three, you have love, you have what's called the full love. And then he breaks it down a little bit more and he starts talking about well, what if you only have two of the three? Right, is that enough? So if you have intimacy and commitment, you have what he would say is companionate love. You have a companion for life, someone who's committed to you, who you have this deep emotional connection to, and you guys are also committed to each other, like you know that you're never going to leave each other. Then you have the other one.

Speaker 1: 33:27

I think this is where most people land. It's the romantic love. This is the intimacy and the passion, but no commitment. So this is where you see people kind of dating and they get along well, they feel connected to each other, they have the passion, they feel attracted to each other. They have the passion, they feel attracted to each other, but the commitment is lacking. So this could be similar to, maybe, people who are living together before marriage, so something like that right, and they may say commitment, but again, how do you solidify that? Usually through marriage, right.

Speaker 1: 33:57

And then you have what's called fatuous love and he would say this is the passion and the commitment, but no intimacy, say this is the passion and the commitment but no intimacy. So this is kind of those people who benefit each other by having being attracted to each other, being committed to each other, but not really having any depth to their relationship. So what he would say is the full love he would call consummate love, which is all three of those factors played together called consummate love, which is all three of those factors played together. So how do you build something like that? So the soulmate, at least in my mind, is the one of you becoming that person and building together with someone, because these things don't happen on day one, right? So I think the idea of soulmate at least from my perspective, the way that people see it is maybe that it happens on day one, like maybe a love at first sight type of feel yeah, or I will know intuitively that this person can do all the things you just described.

Speaker 1: 34:48

Yes, yes, I'll just know it they'll know and they do talk about it with a lot of conviction and to your point.

Speaker 1: 34:54

I don't want to downplay that.

Speaker 1: 34:55

I'm simply um pointing out that these things take time, like the love that you see your parents have or your grandparents have or a couple that you admire, like behind that story or behind that marriage, you see the story of struggle and forgiveness and pain and all of these things that we don't see because not a lot of people share.

Speaker 1: 35:18

You know, and I think it will benefit those of you who are listening, and if you are older and in the church, and you know, and I think it'll benefit those of you who are listening, and if you are older and in the church and you know people look up to you, I think it would behoove you to share with others the struggles and the victories of why you are where you are today in your marriage, because I think people will look at your marriage, they'll admire it, but they don't see the struggle behind it and in order for them to know what it actually looks like to build that, they need to see part of the struggle, because people would think that if there's a problem that goes wrong, then maybe this is not my soulmate anymore. Right, they could go into the relationship believing this is my soulmate, but if something goes wrong, where they go through a really tough patch, this person is no longer my soulmate. Maybe I messed up. Then there's a shame component that kind of comes up.

Speaker 2: 36:04

Yeah Cause, if you're, if we're running with the idea of soulmate, when, when problems arise, then I lose that sense of wholeness, of fulfillment, of meaning and purpose, of like almost like ultimate destiny kind of thing, like culmination. Yep, yeah. If I thought I found redemption in this person and then now I'm encountering problems, what does that mean for my redemption? If you want to get really deep with it.

Speaker 1: 36:32

Yeah, and we do this in our relationship with God too, right? It's like you know, I'm saved, I've been growing in my relationship with God, and then you go through a really hard time in your life and growing in my relationship with God, and then you go through a really hard time in your life and then people start to question does God really love me, right? So it kind of still ties back into the idea of wanting to feel connected to God and often struggle pushes you towards God and he becomes your source of comfort. But there's other people who now they question everything about God, like, oh, the Lord doesn't love me anymore. If he loved me, he wouldn't have allowed this to happen. Or you know why is God putting me through this? So they start questioning all those things. So that's my fear is that if you do again I'm not downplaying it but if you do believe in this aspect of having a soulmate, it's going to be with the understanding that there's struggle within that aspect and that that's okay, that that's part of growing deeper in relationship.

Speaker 1: 37:23

I've felt closer to God during my times of pain than during my times on a mountaintop, for example. So I think if you have that understanding, the idea of a soulmate. You also have the understanding of there's a process to get to that point that it solidifies with time, because you have these components of intimacy, passion and commitment, and the Bible would often talk about this as this covenantal love. Right, you're bound by this covenant to commit and love this other person. You know we have it in Ephesians 5 and obviously talking about the covenant in the Old Testament that God keeps with his people. Yeah, you know, speaking of the in Ephesians 5 and obviously talking about the covenant in the Old Testament that God keeps with his people.

Speaker 2: 38:03

Yeah, you know, speaking of the Bible, so I'm glad you mentioned that. So the Bible, you know immediately when we evangelicals might hear this and they about the idea of the soulmate and they think well, the Bible says nothing about it. You know, and I'm going to dismiss it we just talked about the creation account and where even even greek philosophers got the idea of the split soul. Um, but even just the idea of marriage in the bible. Now, the bible is not and I doesn't paint an idealistic, like always rosy picture of marriage, but I would say this is my words it paints a realistic or a realist, as in a realist is someone.

Speaker 2: 38:44

Now let me back up here, sorry, let me go forward and then I'll back up. But the Bible gives us a realist but positive view of romance and marriage. Now, what do I mean by realist? Sometimes, in common vernacular, people will be like I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist, and what they mean by that is I want an excuse to complain about something. What I mean by realist is that you're dealing honestly with the problems of the world. So a realist is not an idealist, but it's also not a cynical pessimist.

Speaker 2: 39:21

So, a realist is someone who just sees there's both good and bad in the world. So the Bible takes a realist view of marriage, but but on top of that it has a positive view of marriage and romance. Not just marriage, but romance.

Speaker 3: 39:37

Okay, so song of Solomon is probably the best of his best example of that.

Speaker 2: 39:42

But but the you know, there's those positive stories. Isaac and Rebecca is a positive story of romance and marriage. Now were there problems? Oh yeah, of course Ruth and Boaz is another positive story of romance in the Bible. But there's also cautionary tales like Samson and Delilah. Now, some of you are like Samson never got married to Delilah.

Speaker 1: 40:03

Yeah, yeah, I love his expression.

Speaker 2: 40:07

Yeah, here's one. Here's one, king Ahab. Okay, king Ahab, who did he marry Jezebel? King Ahab is described as the most wicked king in all of Israel's history, and the most evil thing that he did was marry Jezebel. Okay, wicked king in all of Israel's history.

Speaker 3: 40:23

And the most evil thing that he did was marry Jezebel.

Speaker 2: 40:24

Okay, so that's bad, all right, so there's right and wrong ways to do that. You remember Jacob, okay. So Jacob, people will focus on his romance with Rachel, how he sees Rachel at the well and he just absolutely overcomes her and he kisses her and he weeps and we're like oh, how sweet that's so romantic.

Speaker 2: 40:46

And then he goes and he offers Laban I'll work seven years. Tim Keller really does a good job of going into why this is a problem, because what it shows is that, jacob, he's doing this thing where he's trying to make up for his sense of alienation and abandonment by finding love in Rachel, because he's already had his experience with the angel of the Lord where he wrestles. He's already had that experience. He's already cheated Well, maybe I'm getting my time he's at least cheated Esau. He's cheated Esau out of his birthright. I may be getting the other experience mixed up, but he's cheated Esau out of his birthright. I may be getting the other experience mixed up, but he's cheated Esau out of his birthright.

Speaker 2: 41:25

So he's gotten, like, this, guarantee I'm going to get the birthright of my father but, he's fleeing from his family and he flees to his uncle's house Okay, and that's where he meets Rachel, and then he's so desperate and enamored with love love overcome with this love that he offers seven years of labor, which, like is crazy, no one would have done that. That's why the story. I thought that was cultural. Uh, yeah, no, it's an exorbitant amount of uh, yeah, okay uh. So it's like laban's like sure I'll take it yeah yeah, you know.

Speaker 2: 41:55

Uh, so he does that. And then at the end of the seven years, keller explains this that when jacob says, like it's the end of my seven years, give me my wife so that I can lay with her, that was very uncouth culturally to do that he's basically saying, okay, I've earned my wife, now let me have sex with her so he's so desperate to fulfill the physical desire that he has for her, so he just sees this as like I've just got to have this woman, okay, and laban, of course, takes advantage of him.

Speaker 2: 42:22

You know that way, anyway. So there's all that to say. There are positive views of marriage and romance, but there's also warnings in the Bible too, like Solomon, the Song of Solomon is about Solomon and his young bride, but we all know Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Yeah, so, yeah, and those wives led him away from the Lord. Yeah, so it's a mixed bag.

Speaker 2: 42:46

It's a mixed bag. So, okay, what advice can we give? Oh, let me say one more thing about the Bible, because I didn't say anything about the New Testament. You know, like the New Testament picture I think you mentioned this earlier the New Testament picture of marriage is that one. It's a healthy thing for people to do. It's not an obligation. You can be single or married and live a fulfilled Christian life. But if you do get married, that is a picture of the union with Christ. This is Ephesians 5. Your marriage with your husband or wife is supposed to be a picture of the Christ union with the church. Okay, so that's the biblical picture of marriage in a nutshell. Yeah, all right. So what do we give? In our audience, there's going to be Christians who are wrestling with this idea of soulmate. There's going to be, maybe, people who are not Christians wrestling with it. What advice can we give them? Or even, just even, people who are married and maybe thinking did I choose wrong?

Speaker 1: 43:48

Yeah, well, I really like the point you made earlier. This was prior to starting the episode, but this aspect of building a life together and I think the Sternberg's theory of love, I think it actually provides a good foundation for approaching relationships. As you know we talked about, christians will often negate the aspect of physical attraction, but it's a natural part of how we actually build relationships. It's one of the main components of what actually brings us in for men. So there's that aspect, but then the other two right, this aspect of intimacy, learning how to build that intimacy, that genuine connection, heart to heart, mind to mind, with another person.

Speaker 1: 44:32

Today people don't know how to do that and again, a lot of that stems from not having good models growing up. I mean, we have most a lot of single family homes, we have a lot of divorced homes, we have a lot of absent parents. The new generation just doesn't know how to build a relationship face-to-face, an actual relationship. All they know is what they've seen in their homes and social media, what they're seeing, these celebrities and again, they only see the highlights on social media. If you're scrolling, you're not seeing all the lows of people's relations, you're seeing only the highs. So in your mind. That's creating this ideal of oh, that's what I want my relationship to look like, or that's what I want this to look like.

Speaker 1: 45:15

But again, spend time with couples within your church, within your communities, that you admire, and ask questions I think most couples like to share. Hey, here's what we've been through, here's how we overcame this struggle over here. So, if you're single and looking to get married at some point, talk to those people. Talk to people that you admire, what you want your marriage to look like, talk to those people and they'll share those things with you.

Speaker 1: 45:40

But this aspect today we lose these two pieces in culture the ability to build intimacy, which is genuine connection with another person, and the commitment piece Is that if I'm not happy, then I can go and just leave this marriage. So, everyone, that's pretty good with the passion part I'm attracted to you, you're attracted to me great. But then after that, what? Build up the intimacy, build up the commitment, and needing to get back to those roots and I think there's a lot of support in scripture that provides that right. We talk about the covenantal commitment of marriage, and then also we have guidance in reflecting the relationship of Christ and the church through marriage too.

Speaker 2: 46:18

Yeah, if I could maybe sum up that what you said there. So we don't necessarily find a soulmate, but we become soulmates through the commitment and hard work. Um, yeah, yeah, you know, like there's a, if you don't believe me, there's a stat here that I think is interesting, you know, for people who are maybe struggling with the idea of like soulmate. Um, 43 of people who get married end up marrying someone that they went to high school or college with 43, yeah, 43 this is americans.

Speaker 2: 46:52

Yeah, okay, okay if the idea of soulmate, of like, I have to find. There's one human being out there of the opposite sex that I need to find now. That's a controversial statement that I just uttered there. You know one human being out there of the opposite sex that I need to find Now.

Speaker 2: 47:03

That's a controversial statement that I just uttered there, you know in our culture, but that there's one person that I need to connect with in this romantic relationship and that's my soulmate. You wouldn't see a stat like that, you wouldn't see like 40, the distribution of soulmates is so closely like, so close in physical proximity to each other, that that wouldn't make sense. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:26

So the idea that we can become soulmates with another person, through those stages and moving through the thresholds and trials of relationships, I think makes a lot more sense. I would say this as a single person, I'll give some self-disclosure here again, like I I want to. I'm I entered this episode not wanting to be presumptuous and give advice of from a vantage point that I didn't have, like being married or have kids or anything like that, um, but as a single person, there are, there are times, especially as I've gotten older, there's been these, there's been these, um, pockets of discouragement that I've gone through, where I started to ask questions like did I, did I cause I want to be married. You know it's like did I, did I miss her? Like did I miss that? Did I overlook her? Did I miss my opportunity? I haven't found her yet. You know that I, that's, that's that idea coming out subconsciously and then verbally.

Speaker 2: 48:22

You know, sometimes, and I think for singles who struggle with that, the idea that we can actually build soulmates, like you can actually find that connection, not just not with anyone, and this is again evangelicals who are looking at this from the advantage point, the advantage point of being married, don't just say, well, just get married.

Speaker 2: 48:48

That's not how relationships work. Okay, it's not that you can just connect with anyone, but there's there is a, there is a maybe a range of people who could become that soul that quote quote unquote soulmate. You know, if you build a relationship together. And I think there's some freedom and encouragement for singles, who are kind of wandering in the dark, so to speak, on this issue, is like I can't find the person. Maybe I missed her, maybe I missed him, maybe I actually maybe I broke up with them and I'm regretting it now or whatever, and I and I I've made huge mistakes in my life that can't be redeemed. I think the idea that I can build a relationship with another person and that meets some basic qualifications that we've talked about, but I can become that and I can find that connection that way, I think there's some freedom in that and encouragement for people. So I would just encourage singles in that, that, um, yeah, you know there could be a multiple people who could qualify for that kind of partner in your life, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 49:59

Absolutely. Yeah, I appreciate sharing that. Brother Appreciate sharing that. Um, it's a good topic, yeah, good discussion.

Speaker 2: 50:08

I have some closing thoughts, you have some closing thoughts. I have one closing thought. Okay, okay, but I'll let you go first. You go first.

Speaker 1: 50:17

Yeah, I think, uh, if I have any closing thoughts on the topic, it's just reemphasizing the idea of becoming the person, becoming the soulmate, I guess, and then finding someone who is also doing that in their own journey. I don't know what that looks like, though, because I'm still processing just the idea of what a soulmate actually is, because I guess I'm coming at it from the perspective of, maybe even from a place of, hurt, but I don't know, I don't know, I'm still processing the whole idea of it. But for me, it's more so if I'm looking forward and looking at what this actually means. I think it's just finding someone who's willing to build together and working through things and just pushing forward. That's just kind of what's coming to mind for me.

Speaker 2: 51:16

I would close with this that there's deep wisdom, in Western tradition at least, on this thought of a soulmate. Now again, we've unpacked it and critiqued it, but there's still wisdom in the idea. So again, it's not new, it's not crazy, because the idea itself speaks to this permanent and abiding sense of joy, wholeness and redemption that we all long for and that we all seek. I didn't mention anything about Eastern philosophy as I was going through this topic, because Eastern philosophy, that's Confucianism, buddhism, some Japanese philosophy, eastern philosophy, largely denies the existence of this kind of connection or love. They do because, because, well, especially with like buddhism, yeah, um you, you, the purpose of life is to, is to like, detach yourself from these affections and these desires, because that's where suffering comes from is attachment.

Speaker 2: 52:20

Yeah, okay and so, the more you attach yourself to things like these loves, the more, the more suffering you actually have in life, and so, uh, you ultimately have to come to a place where, uh, you recognize that your own, your own non-existence is is what is reality yeah and so that's when you can be subsumed back into the nothingness.

Speaker 1: 52:43

That's interesting.

Speaker 2: 52:45

Yeah, so it actually like these desires that you have would say, well, they're just. You actually have to see them as nothing, they're not real, and the Christian worldview would say that's not true. Okay, but there is, these deep desires within us. Including the desire for a soulmate, even if it could be misplaced or misidentified or ill-defined, does point to something, and CS Lewis had a lot to say on this. He had this famous argument called the argument from desire. It was actually an apologetic argument for the existence of God, for the existence of God, and it goes something like this I'll abbreviate it.

Speaker 2: 53:25

But basically, cs Lewis, when he's writing, he says I have an appetite that can be satisfied, all my appetites can be satisfied by something. I have an appetite for food. There's food in this world. I have thirst. I can have my thirst quenched by something in this world water or whatever. I have an appetite for sex that could be satisfied in this world. All these appetites that I have, there's something in this world that can satisfy that appetite or desire. Let's say he says but there's something much deeper in the human soul. There's some desire that we all know can't be fulfilled in this life. There's nothing in this life that can fulfill that desire. But why would I have that desire if nothing in this life can fulfill it? Where would that desire come from? You can see where he's going with this.

Speaker 2: 54:15

So he said, if all of my desires or appetites have some sort of way to be fulfilled, then it stands to reason that this other desire in me, this deeper one that longs for transcendent connection, is something that points beyond this world. And I have to look outside of this world and outside of physical existence to find what could fulfill that desire. And I think that's where we get this idea of redemption, yeah, and where soulmate actually comes from yeah, yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1: 54:50

I love that, tim. Hey, I'll close with this because now it came to to mind because you mentioned eastern tradition and so on. I think culturally, I think that's probably what's been impacted in my head because the focus from a cultural perspective, latino background, is duty, responsibility, commitment, no matter what, and to the detriment of some relationships within the Latino community. But I think that's kind of the idea of do these three things, that's your responsibility and the feelings are kind of taken out of it. So maybe it's been that aspect of what does it make me feel to think about this romantic piece, part of it. Well, it doesn't line up with these other factors that were modeled or taught to me growing up because these were the most important. So when I talk about the covenantal part of marriage, I'm thinking that ties into this commitment piece. So, yeah, I think that's where I was trying to come from. Is that what is it? It's not wanting to feel romantic, it's just these are of higher value based on the background.

Speaker 1: 55:56

The Eastern one is tricky because it's kind of that yourself completely from those emotions. So I guess that's what clicked in my head. Oh, that makes sense. That's how I grew up. Okay, do I need to? I need to modify.

Speaker 2: 56:07

Yeah and we could. We could probably do some episodes on like cultural differences, like happiness, the place of feelings and happiness in different cultures. But it sounds like with the Latin American culture it's not that feelings aren't important, but they're lower on the scale of that, yeah, exactly, that's exactly right, yeah, so, yeah, okay, great stuff.

Speaker 1: 56:30

All right, yeah, great. Share this with your friends, I'm sure you guys will love it, and send us your questions if you have anything. All right, all right, see you next time guys.