Psych and Theo Podcast
Ep. 16 - How Should We Address the Topic of Homosexuality in the Church
Exploring identity within the Christian faith, we question the dominance of sexual orientation as the chief identifier of an individual. The discussion hinges on the transformative power of faith and the Biblical perspective that believers are not defined by past behaviors but are renewed through Christ. Our conversation navigates the complex terrain of identity language, considering the implications of attaching certain adjectives to "Christian" and how these reflect broader societal values. We reflect on the profound change one undergoes in embracing faith, moving beyond surface-level identifiers to the core of spiritual regeneration.
The battle of internal conflicts, especially during the critical years of adolescence, takes center stage as we talk about the perennial struggle between flesh and spirit. We invoke the Biblical story of Cain and Abel to illustrate the intricacies of the sin nature and the temptation that believers contend with. Emphasizing the fruits of the Spirit and the Holy Spirit's role in personal transformation, we conclude by discussing the delicate handling of future prophecies in Christianity. Our dialogue is an open invitation to engage further on these topics and to suggest new ones that bridge the gap between theology and psychological understanding.
Exploring identity within the Christian faith, we question the dominance of sexual orientation as the chief identifier of an individual. The discussion hinges on the transformative power of faith and the Biblical perspective that believers are not defined by past behaviors but are renewed through Christ. Our conversation navigates the complex terrain of identity language, considering the implications of attaching certain adjectives to "Christian" and how these reflect broader societal values. We reflect on the profound change one undergoes in embracing faith, moving beyond surface-level identifiers to the core of spiritual regeneration.
The battle of internal conflicts, especially during the critical years of adolescence, takes center stage as we talk about the perennial struggle between flesh and spirit. We invoke the Biblical story of Cain and Abel to illustrate the intricacies of the sin nature and the temptation that believers contend with. Emphasizing the fruits of the Spirit and the Holy Spirit's role in personal transformation, we conclude by discussing the delicate handling of future prophecies in Christianity. Our dialogue is an open invitation to engage further on these topics and to suggest new ones that bridge the gap between theology and psychological understanding.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and Theo podcast. Sam and Tim here, and this is part three of a series that we've been doing on how to address the topic of homosexuality. The first part was are people born gay? The second part was what does the Bible say about homosexuality? And today we're going to be answering the question how do we address the topic of homosexuality in the church? So we have a lot of great content for you today and again, just thank you for listening, thanks for supporting us and feel free to leave comments and messages, and I'm guessing, tim, that we might not get the friendliest comments on our posts this next couple of weeks.
Speaker 2:Oh, I, cannot wait to see what people say. Just a reminder these episodes are not for immature audiences, so if you have little ones probably should skip over these at least for time. Listen to them yourself first and make that judgment on your own. But especially the first two. This one might be a little bit lighter yeah, yeah, yeah okay, cool, let's get into it let's get into it.
Speaker 1:So how do we talk about homosexuality in the church?
Speaker 1:Well, tim, I think one place we can start is the whole topic of homosexuality is already a hot topic, and then you bring that to the church and the that to the church, and the way that the church has responded at least initially, like most people did was very antagonistic towards it, very aggressive towards it, even, and not caring at all about the person who is living this type of lifestyle or experiencing this. So I think we referenced this in part. One is that the biggest challenge that Christians are going to have moving forward is continuing to battle this narrative that the culture has created about how much Christians hate homosexuals. Like that is the narrative that because we don't agree with their lifestyle, that that equates to hating them and not wanting anything to do with them. Um, so that's kind of what what I see is we have a uphill battle with the narrative around how we've been dealing or treating homosexuals. Now, along with that is, how do we stand up for truth and also provide that caring, loving concern for their lives you know, to be saved?
Speaker 2:Yeah, All right, so let's deal. I think I wanted to start this episode dealing with that common argument. How do you diffuse that as a Christian, If you hear that, like Christians are mean, Christians are bigoted or homophobic? You know that's the term that's thrown out a lot.
Speaker 2:How do you deal with that? First, if you get labeled with the term homophobic or you hear someone say that person made homophobic slurs or this church is homophobic, it's this adjective homophobic. First, dissect it. Phobic Now're. You're a counselor, so you're gonna dive in. You could dive in this more. Phobic comes from phobia, which is an irrational fear of something yeah okay.
Speaker 2:And then homo is, of course, referring to homosexuality. So the when someone gets labeled with homophobic or they're using the term homophobic to label someone else, what they really mean is you have an irrational fear of gay people. You are basically irrational. You're a backwater, outmoded caveman who doesn't understand modern science and everything. Challenge that. Say wait a minute. A phobia is something that it's like an irrational fear. Like I have sound, I have sound arguments and reasons that I could give for why I think this behavior is harmful or not, at least, at the very least, not healthy. Let's just start there. Yeah, you know I have reasons for thinking that it's not good for our institutions or society okay, and you can provide those reasons. That's not irrational, that's that. Or society Okay, and you can provide those reasons. That's not irrational, that's perfectly rational. So just challenge that notion. Just don't let that pass. Don't let someone get away with just using the term homophobic. I'm so annoyed.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I see it all the time. Journalists will just throw it out there as though we all agree that it means this and we all agree that any disagreement here is homophobic. It's just. It's so lazy in my opinion, so don't let anyone get away with using that term, because it's a stupid term. You're dumb. Just call me dumb Dummies, don't use it, okay. Okay.
Speaker 2:So the argument like okay, christians are hateful and bigoted, like you guys are anti-LGBbt, you're bigoted. Okay, how do we deal with that? Well, notice that it this is labeling christians as hateful. It's ascribing a like, a, an attitude, a particular attitude to christians over a moral disagreement. Okay. So it expands. It's expanding the term bigotry, which is like I'm. I have this. I have a a negative view of a group of people, be that women, be that another race, some. I have some sort of prejudicial view of that group that's not based on anything except my hatred of them, and so it's expanding bigotry and hate to include moral disagreement. And it's saying that you disagree with me, therefore you are hateful, therefore you are bigoted. Okay, so we need to push back on that and say wait, wait, wait, wait. I disagree morally. That doesn't make me a bigot, that doesn't make me hateful. I don't hate someone Like this comes up in the abortion debate all the time.
Speaker 2:You hate women. If you're pro-life, you must hate women. It's like no, no, I actually care about women. I care about all the aborted women, you know. So, like I have good reasons for opposing abortion, and none of them include hating women, so I have I'm. I could have good reasons for opposing gay marriage. I could have good reasons for thinking that homosexuality is not good for people, none of which include hating on them or being a bigoted person. Like having some sort of just irrational prejudice toward them Make sense, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think one of the things that I would add to that is the social pressure to conform because you're being labeled that right.
Speaker 1:And to Tim's point, if you don't challenge it, you're going to end up believing those actual things that they're saying about you. You're actually going to believe that you're being bigoted when you're not. You have a moral stance on an issue and if you don't push back or if you don't know in your mind really why you believe what you believe, then you're going to start thinking to yourself maybe I am a bigot, maybe I should be holding my, maybe I shouldn't say anything about this. So I don't, you know, ruffle anyone's feathers or make it difficult for myself or for other people, like this is again. Our battle is against this narrative that we're hateful. But to that there's been this overcorrection, tim, where in order to not appear bigoted and hateful, the opposite side to that is now to be accepting and justifying the behavior and say, maybe there's reasons for why they're able to, why they do that, why they live a homosexual lifestyle. So we go to the opposite extreme in trying to overcorrect this idea of being bigoted and hateful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's. Well, the pressure is that to find in the historic Christian teachings of the Bible that there's a place for homosexuality. Because people are, like you said, the social pressure, so they don't want to be accused of being hateful. So they don't want to be accused of being hateful. Okay, the argument of saying, hey, you're bigoted if you oppose gay marriage, you're bigoted if you oppose homosexuality. That confuses the hateful behavior of some Christians with the Christian teachings on homosexuality.
Speaker 1:Exactly Okay, great point, so the confusion of those two things.
Speaker 2:Like a Christian could be a Christian could be a jerk Okay, they could be a jerk, they could say hateful things, but that doesn't mean the Christian teachings are hateful.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:And this again. This raises the question of is it really hateful if it's the truth? Is it inherently hateful because it's the truth, like if I think something is true and I think it's harmful if someone does it, it actually could be quite hateful to not tell someone the truth. I could be a jerk and telling them the truth, sure, but just the mere fact of me telling them the truth isn't a hateful act, or just telling them what I believe to be true, right, isn't hateful yeah, and the how also makes a difference.
Speaker 1:So when we're talking about addressing this issue, how you say, what you say about homosexuality does make a difference. I mean, it's going to come off much or received differently if you use a harsher, hateful tone, because that does communicate something, as opposed to a softer, gentle tone. Now, I make that argument simply because that's where the person can make the connection of oh, it's not just that you're saying this message, but how you're saying it to me. It has a different feel to it. Like me saying all homosexuals they're going to go to hell and they deserve it because they're living a sinful lifestyle. That's much different than, hey, this lifestyle that you're living, it's taking you down this path.
Speaker 1:The Bible does not agree with that. It does not line up with scripture. Maybe there needs to be a part of repentance, Maybe you need to repent Again. Totally saying the same thing, totally different feel and receiving of that message. So again, if we're going to change the narrative, we need to do two things. One, change how we address it. But then, two, also show them through our behavior that we actually do care for them. And I think if you tie those two things together, things start to make sense. But what Tim said is exactly right is that the people who are not communicating in that way, we have to put that person to the side and look at scripture and see what the scriptures say, because most people who say that Christians are hateful and bigoted are always talking about a personal experience that they had with someone, not what they've read in scripture, because I think they'll find something completely there yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So let's get into some biblical, theological points that I think would be good for Christians to keep in mind. So there's a few points that we need to dive into in terms of helping people to think biblically, think theologically, think morally about it, think theologically, think morally about it. Let's get into, if you don't mind, let's get into. This idea of sexual orientation equals my identity. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, my reference point is always Jackie Hill, just because she makes great points about it, and there's personal experiences as well that I've had with friends and other people. But the idea of sexual orientation is that that is the only part of you that matters, that how you express yourself sexually is the only thing about you and that supersedes everything else. Your personality, your service to others, how you treat other people, your service to others, how you treat other people, your humor, whatever the case is, your sexuality becomes a dominant state of your being. That's this idea of the orientation is that that's the only part of you that matters.
Speaker 2:But there's so much more. So what's the problem if someone says look, I'm a gay Christian. I don't practice homosexuality, but I'm a gay Christian?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What's the problem there?
Speaker 1:Yeah well, rosario Butterfield would say that that would be a contradictory phrase or two words.
Speaker 2:An oxymoron. An oxymoron, that's a good word. Yeah, oxymoron. I mean, I know that word, but Not that they're a moron, it's an oxymoron, right, know that word, but not that they're a moron, it's an oxymoron, right?
Speaker 1:so you can't once you add the edges. So you say first of all and I think you made this point as well that we're christians, which means that we identify with christ and try to live a life that is, um, that replicates who he is right. We talk about the fruits of the spirit, and what Rosara Butterfield would say is that once you include any type of adjective around the word Christian, you change the whole meaning of it. So to say that you are a gay Christian does not draw any actual conclusions about who you are as a believer. You change the whole meaning behind it. So that's kind of what she would say. But you made a good point earlier about what if you reversed it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a helpful technique to see the problem here is one of two things. Again, this is a reductio ad absurdum style argument. You take something to its absurd extremes to see its problems, or you substitute some things to show this. So if someone says I'm a gay Christian, so gay is being used there as the adjective, substitute that adjective for something else. I'm an alcoholic Christian. I'm an adulterer Christian. I'm what could be another one. I'm a lying Christian. I'm a lying Christian. Oh, somebody, I'm a liar. They would admit that. I'm a thieving. I'm a lying christian. Oh, some of the. I'm a liar, you know, they would admit that. You know I'm a thieving. I'm a bank robbing christian, you know. You substitute something and it sounds strange. Yeah, okay, it sounds really strange. You're like huh, I, I, I would um posit that the reason those things sound strange is because our society doesn't celebrate them yeah, that's right our society doesn't celebrate adultery.
Speaker 2:It doesn't celebrate bank robbery and the thieving and lying and stealing and all those other things. It doesn't celebrate alcoholism. Okay, if you have that problem, get help. Get help. Okay, now I have a problem with aa. When they say you know, my name is so and so and I'm an alcoholic because you're, you're linking your identity with that. Here's another way this gets to your point. When we were talking earlier, you can also switch the order. So instead of saying I'm a gay Christian or I'm a homosexual Christian, switch it and say I'm a Christian homosexual. Again, it's like well, what, huh? If you're linking homosexuality or gay identity, like your gayness, to identity, okay, um, that's, that's essentially what you're doing. Gay becomes the noun, homosexual becomes the noun, christian becomes the adjective. It's the same thing. So again, substitute the word I'm a christian alcoholic, I'm a christian thief, I'm a christian murderer, like it's such a disconnect yeah, it was a huh.
Speaker 2:We scratch our heads and, uh, I? I can already hear the objection that some people say well, that's what I used to do. I'm like, exactly that's what you used to do. I used to be a thief, I used to be an alcoholic. I'm not that anymore, like I don't do those things anymore. So your identity is not rooted there. Let me give you a couple of verses that actually prove our point.
Speaker 2:We talked about 1 Corinthians 6 in that second episode on what does the Bible say about homosexuality. That's one of those passages where Paul references homosexuality as one of the things not consistent with the Christian life. People of the kingdom, let me read to you verse 11. It's right in the middle of all of that passage. So Paul's listing out all these these bad, all these things that are not consistent with being christians. And then he says this. He says and that is what some of you were notice like that predicate. Those of you in the grammar notice the predicate uh verb there like you're taking me way back, yeah, like you were this it's an intrans like you were.
Speaker 2:This it's an intransitive verb. You were this, like such or some passages say and such were some of you Talking about these lifestyles of drunkenness and homosexuality and reveling and all the other things he says. But you were washed past tense completed. You were sanctified past tense. You were justified past tense completed. You were sanctified past tense. You were justified past tense. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God, all of those things washed, sanctified and justified past tense, completed. Now, I'm not looking at the Greek here, but I'm going to. I'm pretty sure those are aorist tense, which means like the past completed. It's not an ongoing thing. Now, sanctification, we would say in one sense, is ongoing I digress there but in the sense of when you are saved, you are set apart, you're sanctified there, you're justified, you're washed from those things. So such were some of you, but now you are different. Okay, so that's 1 Corinthians 6. Another one Ephesians 5 8. I love this.
Speaker 2:Paul is addressing this idea like you're, not like the people of God, the church. They are the people of light in a dark world. And he says this notice again that intransitive verb for you Christians, you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light. So you were darkness, that was your identity. Now you are light. Live as children of light, live out your new identity. So when someone says like well'm a gay christian, like wait, those two things are not compatible. As rosario butterfield would say, they're not compatible. So that's don't link. We don't link our identity with a past sin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whatever sin that is okay, and you know I mentioned jackie hopperbrien earlier and one that she would use would be in uh galatians 5 and reading here, verse uh 16 onward for it. But I say, walk by the spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. So that desire that everyone talks about, like the, the same-sex attraction, if you're wrestling with that, what does that actually look like? It means, you know, I I'm drawn to something from this person. Doesn't have to mean sexually, but if it does right, it's a desire of the flesh. Walk by spirit, fight against it verse 17 for the desires of the flesh are against the spirit and the desires of the spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things you want to do. So kind of again harping on that. This is where jack kind of spends most of her time, but she makes a really great point she says can I pause you?
Speaker 2:right? This is on, I think, the next topic we're getting to, and so it's a good segue of how do you deal with same-sex attraction when someone says like well, I have this. I can't resist it or I can't stop it. So, how do we deal with that temptation? Let's say so you've read some of those passages. Keep going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the other part of it that she references is because there's so much emphasis placed on your identity. Again, remember, in the last episode I think it was the first episode I mentioned how it's during the adolescent years where people start to take on this identity. Right, these young teens really want to identify with something and the big push during that time is okay. You're either boy or girl right this transgender piece or you're gay, right? What are you actually wrestling with? What do you want? Gay, right? What's actually? What are you actually wrestling with? What's what do you want to identify with? And then, once you become a Christian, the idea is you need to let go of those things and you do. You do with time.
Speaker 1:But a point that she makes is that when she first converted, all of her friends or her, the people in her church were telling her about leaving the homosexual lifestyle, but she said she had one mentor, one person who came up to her and focused on developing the fruits of the Spirit. So the focus was away from her identity and the homosexual lifestyle. The focus wasn't on that anymore. The focus was how do I become like Christ? By developing the fruits of the Spirit, by allowing the Spirit to take over, and those things are verse 22,.
Speaker 1:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness. And then she'll pause and she'll say and self-control. And if I learn how to control those desires that go against the Spirit, then I'm following in Christ's footsteps. And I think that's the message that when we talk and we're going to address this even more later and I think that's the message that when we talk and we're going to address this even more later. But I think it's important to know from her perspective was that when we are seeing this in the church, that we talk about developing the fruits of the Spirit, that we are part of their sanctification process and are helping them through that. I just wanted to make that note.
Speaker 2:No, that's good. Now did you, did you mention the war passage of like these two things warring, or like we war against the flesh? Did you mention that? Yes, verse 17.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they are again. The desires of the spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things that you want to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let me go way, way, way back to Genesis, chapter 4, to help people understand this. I think a lot of people misunderstand what sin is and the sin nature. Okay, we oftentimes we equate sin with guilt and not to get too theological here but sin is something that, like there's sin, as in the act of sin, and then there's the sin nature that we deal with, and the sin nature is something that is like our flesh is corrupted, like a we inherit. That's what we inherit from adam. Is that this, this it's? It's both mortality. We die because of it, but we also struggle with vices and it creates moral struggles within us to do wrong things. Our flesh desires things that are opposed to God. So that's what Paul is kind of getting at. I think.
Speaker 2:What will help the picture that will help people maybe, is in Genesis 4 when Cain and Abel. It's the story of Cain and Abel. When Abel offers his sacrifice, god accepts it. Cain offers his, god rejects it. And then Cain's all upset, he's jealous and God's like why are you upset? If you offer the right sacrifice, I'll approve it. And then Cain's like you know, salty, okay. And then God says, hey, look, cain sin crouches at the door and its desire is for you, it desires to have its way with you, but you, you can resist it. You can overcome I forget what that language is there, but you can resist it. You can overcome I forget. That language is there, but you can overcome it. So god is telling cain sin is like this, this ravenous animal that's at the door of your house and it just can't wait to devour you. Like think, like really scary wolf that's like in your doorway and like, oh crap, like I'm in trouble, this thing's going to eat me, all right. And God's saying look, it desires to devour you, but you can rule over it. And of course Cain doesn't. He gives into it. That's a picture of what sin.
Speaker 2:Is that the war? When we're saved, when we come to Christ, we're given a new nature, a spirit, the Holy Spirit within us, and so we have the new man and we have to cultivate that new man. But the flesh is still with us, that thing that desires to do wrong, and those things war with each other inside of us. And so we have to be aware of that. Like, why do I always struggle? Like, why can't God free me from this? Why do I always keep sinning? It's like, well, it's our flesh, it's our like. As long as you're in the physical world, you're going to experience that as a human being. So it's uh, don't be, um, we should. We, we can get discouraged when we fall into sin, but the struggle against sin is a normal thing of life and we should expect that.
Speaker 1:It's a battlefield.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a battlefield. So that's why Paul tries to encourage the Corinthians and 1 Corinthians. The same way he says hey, you know the temptations that overtake you. You know nothing has overtaken you except what's common to mankind. Remember, we're all human beings. We all struggle with this thing called sin, but God is faithful and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. Again, think back to the story of Cain. You can rule over this Cain, but when you are tempted, he will also provide a way of escape or a way to endure it. He didn't say it's easy, he just said like there's a way for us to do it.
Speaker 1:What does that look like for the person who is struggling with those same-sex attractions?
Speaker 1:That's a good question Because, again, the other thing and we talk about this in part one is that same-sex attraction is part of the sinful nature, that it happens due to the brokenness of man, right, but that does not mean that we have to act on those things. And that's kind of how you know, society and the world kind of looks at sin. In general, they say, well, because this comes natural to me, I should do it. You know, because having sex with multiple women comes natural to man, we should do it. No, there's restraints on that because it has consequences on the world. And it's the same thing for homosexuality. And you made a really great point in the last episode, Tim, where you kind of define that before we can understand homosexuality, we first have to understand this aspect of sex. What are the prohibitions on sex? And then you see the connection to homosexuality or any other form of sexual behavior. So what does it look like for those who maybe are Christian or who are wrestling with that same-sex attraction? What does that look like for them in the church?
Speaker 2:So I want to be careful not to give platitudes and simple answers to people who struggle with something that I don't and that I won't presume to put myself in their shoes and just give some pat on the head answer. However, let me say this that because sin is something that's inherent to us as human beings, now being tempted towards sinful things is not itself sin. Again, that story of Cain, sin is crouching at the door, wants to devour you. That temptation is present. We are always tempted. Christ himself was tempted, yet without sin. So there's a distinction between temptation and sin.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 2:Some people can you know Christians can beat themselves up like oh why am I? I feel this temptation and they feel guilt over them. Temptation and it becomes sin when you surrender to temptation, when you give in to temptation. But the presence of the temptation itself is not sin. Recognize that. Maybe that will help. Some people with misplaced guilt is that? Just know that it's that war we're talking about. So when I feel that drawl, that the drawl itself is not sin, but my decision to go along with it is, so that's the critical, that's a critical difference.
Speaker 2:So just for people to be encouraged, you know, and I and again, I don't want to, I don't want to do this, and church people really should be careful not to just dismiss the struggle that some people have. I mean, if, if you don't, if you can't think of a struggle in your life, that's really hard. Maybe your struggle is self-righteousness and pride, you know, uh, because if you, if you really are attuned to your, your own sinful nature, you can probably think of something in your life that's like yeah, I really struggle with this, like I really struggle with this one. Yeah, empathize with people differently when you understand that about yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I've worked with a number of people who have struggled with same-sex attraction, some who are just full-blown homosexual, just want to live that lifestyle, and you know, obviously they speak of it very differently. And in the church one of the things that we'll often hear is this aspect of repentance, which is necessary to for repentance and, again, not to minimize the struggle itself, but there will still be that call that it needs to be repented of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good point. Anything else you want to add?
Speaker 1:No, I think we have a little bit here about some fallacies that people may fall into. You want to touch on those a little bit?
Speaker 2:that people may fall into. You want to touch on those a little bit. Um, oh yeah, like, okay. So just some real quick things in terms of um you mentioned this before like this problem of following our instincts or what's natural desires.
Speaker 2:Oftentimes, when people come to this issue of um, of homosexuality, and they try to link it or root it in, like my, my, I'm born this way or this, we observe this in nature. You know, dogs, dogs there's homosexual behavior, and dogs and other mammalian species, so why not us? Right? Well, the problem with that simplistic kind of argument is that it's called we call this in ethics the naturalistic fallacy. It's called the is ought fallacy. In other words, you go from describing something or how it is to prescribing it, how it ought to be. So you're jumping from prescription to or from description to prescription. So, just, but that's a fallacy. Just because something is a certain way, it doesn't mean it ought to be that way.
Speaker 2:And for the wokesters out there, this could be very, this could be very easy to understand Okay, they're all about resisting the patriarchy and and resisting oppression. Oppression, like you could flip it on them and say, okay, oppression, like you could flip it on them and say okay. Well, patriarchy is the nature of things. This is actually what the red pill community says. If you get, if you guys want to go listen to the red pill episode again, they say patriarchy is the nature of things. It is the way things are in nature.
Speaker 2:Or there's a thing called the iron rule of oligarchy. When you're talking about the history of civilizations and how to set up societies, doesn't matter if you're democracy or monarchy or whatever. There's something called the iron rule of oligarchy, where every society always has an elite group of people that rise up and rule, whether from the shadows or in public. So some people observe that and say, oh well, this is the way the world is, therefore it ought to be that way. That's a fallacy. That's because it is that way doesn't mean it ought to be that way.
Speaker 1:See the point, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, wokesters, how to use you? There it is how to use you for something. So the naturalistic flat fallacy, another one is a slippery slope, super dangerous yeah yeah, now there's the slippery, there's a slippery slope fallacy.
Speaker 2:But then there's a valid way of using a slippery slope argument. Slippery slope fallacy would be like this terrible thing is going to happen. Uh, if you do this thing, something terrible is going to happen from that. And the way that becomes a fallacy is when the the terrible thing that happens later on really has no connection to the thing in the present. That would be like um, I'm trying to think of a good example on the fly here, like uh, if you eat too many Doritos, they're Nicholas Cage is going to make a terrible movie about. This is a really bad example.
Speaker 1:Is it like making a connection between two things that have no actual relevance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or it's like you know, something's necessarily going to follow from this other thing. That's that would be a fallacy. Okay, where you're it'sacy here's a better way to say it You're showing that you're trying to make this argument that one thing necessarily again, a philosophical necessarily follows from another thing. When you make this, where it becomes a fallacy is when you're trying to predict the future. You say, okay, we're doing this thing right here.
Speaker 2:What necessarily this that where it becomes a fallacy is when you're trying to predict the future. You say, okay, we're doing this thing right here. What necessarily is going to happen in the future is this thing, this horrible thing here was like well, that's kind of a really precarious argument because history is really complex and all kinds of things can happen in between point a and point b. So that would be a fallacious kind of slippery slope argument. A valid form is showing the logical implications from point A to point B, and here's let me give you tie this in with homosexuality.
Speaker 2:In the 80s and 90s, christians were saying hey, if you legalize gay marriage, if you legalize homosexual behavior, we start celebrating this as a culture. Our culture is eventually going to adopt pederasty and pedophilia. We're eventually going to celebrate bestiality. We're going to celebrate all these other kinds of sexual perversion, okay. So there's two kinds of slippery slope arguments right there. One is valid, one is fallacious. The valid form is showing that the logical implications of accepting gay marriage, the logical implications of celebrating gay marriage and celebrating transgenderitting, pedophilia, permitting bestiality, if we're going to say there's a biological determinism to homosexuality, like I was born this way, or my identity as a transgender person is rooted in my mind. Well then, the logical implication is that we could have for transgenderism, we could have transracialism or transspeciesm.
Speaker 2:Right, it's a logical yeah argument to that direction with with a born gay argument. It's a logical argument to you could have pedophiles who are have minor. They're born this way, they have minor attraction, they're born with it. I'm or or what do you call it mammalial attraction, like a bestiality, like I'm born with this kind of thing, it's my sexual orientation. That is a perfectly logical argument to make. The invalid form and this is where Christians kind of got in trouble or they got kind of discredited in the 80s and 90s was that they were saying this kind of society is necessarily going to happen down the road. Now I think they are proving to be right that we are kind of there and so they were right in their prediction. But where it was fallacious is saying that it was necessarily going to be that way because we could have all kinds of things could happen in between, like we didn't have to go down this road. We could have changed and reverted courses if we wanted to. That's true.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I guess I hope that makes sense. Like the slippery slope argument is fallacious when you're trying to predict the future. It's not fallacious when you're following the logical implications from one thing to another.
Speaker 1:So I wonder if this would follow, if this would kind of fall in line with that, because there was two camps of Christianity that, as this started to grow, the homosexual movement started to grow. One camp was saying well, you know, it's not too big of a deal, like it's fine. You know, we got to learn to love them, to accept them. You have another camp that was saying no, we need to speak up against this now because if not it's going to move into pedophilia and all these other things. And so would that be one example of, you know, the one that's saying it's going to turn into pedophilia and other things if we don't say anything about this now. So that vocal group has gone smaller and smaller and smaller throughout the years. Now they basically have no voice. And now the other group that stayed quiet is saying, oh, maybe when we messed up, maybe we should have been saying something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, way back in the day yeah, the idea of being quiet when something like this is growing so fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know the slippery slope fallacy shouldn't discourage Christians from warning about the future. I mean because, again, we can make the logic you could show. Okay, the logical implication here is that our society could legalize these other forms of sexual deviancy. One follows from another. If you grant constitutional protections for gay marriage, eventually, logically, it's going to lead to like someone could make the legal case for minor attracted persons or polyamory or any other thing like that. It follows logically. So they could. That's the way that they needed to hindsight's 20-20, of course, but that's the way that they needed to. It's hindsight 2020, of course, but that's the way they should have argued. But it shouldn't discourage Christians from warning about the future. We just need to be careful to say like this is definitely going to happen in the future, because that's where we can discredit ourselves. We need to stop trying to be prophets in that way and be prophets in the sense of stop trying to foretell the future and foretell God's word.
Speaker 1:Right, and you could also be kind of fulfilling a self-fulfilling prophecy too Start to behave in ways that kind of create the culture environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem or something, oh no you're going to get in trouble for that one.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, those are big things. I think we touched on the other ones pretty much, I think.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think we got them all is there a question we left off the table, something that you'd want us to address? With this issue, maybe we'll do another series where we address some very specific things about homosexuality in the Bible.
Speaker 1:And obviously we have a bunch of other topics in mind as well that we'll start doing series on. If you have any ideas, feel free to share them with us. You can do it on our Instagram page or you can email us at psychandfeel at gmailcom. We'll wait your responses. Alright, guys, have a good one, thank you.