Ep. 19 - Spiritual Warfare, Part 2: The Power and Authority of Jesus and the Levels of Warfare

Episode Outline
0:02 - Understanding Biblical and Spiritual Warfare
10:04 - The Power and Authority of Jesus
26:22 - Levels of Spiritual Warfare in Christianity
34:32 - Spiritual Warfare in Daily Life

Do you ever wonder how ancient rebellions shape our modern spiritual battles? Join us as we unpack the three key rebellions in the Old Testament—Genesis 3, Genesis 6, and the Tower of Babel—and explore their lasting impact on our spiritual landscape. We discuss how these events introduced sin, corrupted humanity, and led nations astray, making sense of the concept of territorial spirits and their influence on human affairs today.

Witness the unparalleled power and authority of Jesus as we highlight his role in inaugurating the Kingdom of God. We contrast Jesus' seamless exorcisms with the complex rituals of the time, revealing how his actions were seen as clear signs of the Messiah's arrival. Dive into the intense spiritual confrontations Jesus faced, including his temptation by Satan in the wilderness and the unfolding of God's divine plan through his ministry.

Discover the true essence of spiritual warfare from a Christian perspective, where the primary mission is advancing the gospel rather than engaging in dramatic encounters with demonic entities. We break down spiritual warfare into different levels, emphasizing the importance of the church body putting on the full armor of God as described in Ephesians 6. Learn why preaching the gospel is the ultimate weapon in this cosmic battle and how our daily lives play a crucial role in this ongoing spiritual war.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Psych and Theo podcast. We left you guys a kind of a cliffhanger last time because there's just so much good content that we just couldn't capture it all in one episode. I was very sad about that.

Speaker 3: 0:16

I'm long-winded.

Speaker 1: 0:18

But he's here today to continue it and tie it into the aspect of what is biblical warfare or spiritual warfare.

Speaker 1: 0:29

So yeah, tim, last week we were talking about how the different rebellions have contributed to the overall plan that God has in redeeming humanity. It was very interesting seeing the three different rebellions that you mentioned and that was all Old Testament. I'm thinking and correct me if I'm wrong that today, as you move into explaining the second part of that, that it's also going to move into not just the gospel, which was very much emphasized in the beginning of our last episode, but also is what does this mean for us as a Christian today? Because that's essentially what we're thinking about. We're talking about spiritual warfare and in understanding all these different rebellions, because really, I think one of the themes that we saw was not only do we see that in these beings, but this is at the core of man's sin. Yeah, is to rebel against god. Yeah, not saying that we're demons, not saying that we're the devil or anything like that, but there was some interesting parallels that were yeah, so, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:27

So I'll recap for us. But to your point, the scriptures are always linking angelic rebellions with human rebellion. There's always an alliance there, even in Revelation. There's an alliance of human and demonic or satanic rebellion. So if you were listening to the last episode, you would have remembered that we talked about three different rebellions in the Old Testament and how this is different than the classic or traditional view. That just kind of says well, satan and the angels rebelled sometime before Adam and Eve got on the scene and then they quickly led everyone into rebellion. But the Old Testament depicts the story a lot different than that that.

Speaker 3: 2:05

The first rebellion is Genesis 3, and this is the introduction of sin into the world. So if you want to understand each rebellion and what it contributes to the story, here's how. Genesis 3 is the introduction of sin into the human race. So Satan leads them into rebellion. They sin and sin is passed. Sin nature is passed on to all humanity. Because of that.

Speaker 3: 2:30

Okay, genesis 6, in the Jewish mind, genesis 6 being an angelic rebellion, it further corrupted humanity. It didn't reintroduce sin because sin was already there. But if you, the traditions of the jews, um, or the hebrews, uh, believed that, um, that rebellion was connected to, to furthering human depravity, like making it worse, teaching human beings basically how to be more destructive in their sexual appetites and their appetite for violence, in their curiosity about divination and using pharmaceutical well, pharmakeia is the word, but essentially demon worship, like using hallucinogenics and things like that. Demon worship like using hallucinogenics and things like that, so that in the in the Jewish, the second temple literature this is how they understood this rebellion, that these guys. There's a couple of theories about their motives whether they wanted to corrupt the line of human beings or they wanted to set up their own image bearers, which is which would be, which would explain the Nephilim.

Speaker 3: 3:42

Essentially, they're trying to corrupt humanity fully, and so they rebel. They're trying to corrupt humanity fully, and so they rebel. They fall in line with Satan somehow, but they increase human depravity on the earth. Well, those guys from the New Testament, if we track the passages from the New Testament, they are thrown in the abyss, they're locked up in chains of darkness. So they are not on the scene, okay, right now.

Speaker 3: 4:06

But then the third rebellion happens at the Tower of Babel. God splits up the nations, he confuses their languages and he splits them up. But Deuteronomy 32 gives us more insight, where he divides these nations up among the sons of God, these angelic, divine council beings who are responsible to steward the nations and eventually lead them in true worship back to Yahweh. Well, they don't do that. They lead the nations into chaos and rebellion and false worship. And so Psalm 82 is the judgment Psalm that's read against them. When that Psalm is read, or when that judgment takes place, there's different theories about that, but essentially that's what happens. God judges them, and so they are now in rebellion as well, and so this is where we get, this is how we understand passages like the Prince of Persia and Daniel 10, is that's a rebellious angelic being that is resisting the plans of God in the world. That's why he holds up the angel that tries to deliver the message to Daniel. So he has some sort of because Daniel's under the kingdom of Persia, and so he has some sort of authority over that empire.

Speaker 3: 5:18

And then there's another one mentioned called the Prince of Greece. That comes later and Greece, as we know from history, greece conquers persia, and so there's there seems to be some sort of territorial wars that take place between these spirits, and the old testament actually has a term for them, called the shadim. They're called, or, uh, maybe I'm I mixed two things up it's the teraphim and the shadim. It might be teraphim, but basically they're called territorial spirits. Um, is what they are. This is how the jews would see them. Now, they're a little bit different than the demons. The demons uh, now I didn't get into this in part, part one but um, demons or daimony, uh, daimons, daemonians, like they were considered, um, uh, disembodied spirits, the low think of, like. There's some different theories on this.

Speaker 3: 6:10

I don't want to get off on a tangent yeah with like because there's there's the, there's the fallen angel theory, there's the nephilim theory about them. I take my personal view as the nephilim theory, but we don't have time to get into that, I don't want to distract people on that stuff. But but essentially, but in the Jewish mind, demons, these kind of lower level beings that would harass people physically with like ailments and like hauntings and things like that, they're low ranking. They're not these high ranking territorial rulers, like empire rulers kind of guys. Okay.

Speaker 1: 6:46

So in the Jewish mind there's already a hierarchy that's forming in jewish theology and I don't want to get too too much off of it, but would that be similar to because I think maybe some people may be thinking about ghosts are ghosts and spirits? Because I know ghosts has a foundation? Would that be related in any way?

Speaker 3: 7:02

yeah, I mean, my personal view is like if well, ghosts, I guess, are dead people. Yeah, like in the common in the common view today, ghosts are like oh dead people that are, they're hanging around um, you mentioned this embodied yeah, I don't think the bible doesn't seem to allow for that.

Speaker 3: 7:18

There there are. There are some instances where, like, the spirit of samuel is called up by the witch of endor and it's actually Samuel that shows up. Saul goes to this witch and says hey, can I talk to Samuel? And Samuel actually comes up from Sheol, which is the place of the dead. So, yeah, there's a category for human spirits that, at least in theory, can be here. And in the Old Testament the Israelites were told don't contact the dead, not because it can't happen, because it can happen. I get that from Michael Heiser. He's not restricting something that's not possible. Right right.

Speaker 3: 8:03

But the problem is is, as human beings we don't. We are so unequipped to discern whether or not we're being deceived by spirits that we're told not to do that? Okay, um, so what? But when it comes to like modern day ghost stuff, I my foregone conclusion that I is that it's it's demons. Like I don't think there's disembodied people floating around, but it like the scriptures, uh, don't seem to allow space for that. Like when you die you go to the place of the dead. Like, or, if you're a christian, you go to be with the lord, if not, you go to await final punishment, final judgment.

Speaker 1: 8:44

That seems to be the depiction I asked that question because I think that's the beginning.

Speaker 3: 8:50

But by the time we get to the first century, okay, jesus, when Jesus shows up in the Jewish mind, the nations are divided. They worship false gods. The idols themselves are silly, but behind those idols are false deities that rule the nations. Okay, uh, satan is the head honcho somehow, um, and so he, he has power over all the others. He gets to basically make the shots, call the shots, but they seem, they seem to be some jockeying, almost like a mafia, like jockeying for position and things like that. Um, again, this is like kind of some murky theory, but that seems to be the depiction. So the nations are divided, they're in rebellion, israel, who worship, who fell into idolatry of these other beings. They were sent into and now they're brought back to the land of promise and they are waiting for the Messiah, for God to show up and to establish his rule on the earth and to bring all the nations under his rule, basically defeating all these gods and setting up his people, israel. So that is the anticipation of the Messiah in the first century.

Speaker 3: 10:04

So when Jesus shows up, what he's? Now we don't have time to get into all the Christology, but when he shows up he does a few things. He, most importantly, he inaugurates the kingdom of God and this is really important, like that's a really important category for the Jews. So he says you know, the kingdom of this is. Several times he says the kingdom of God is at hand, the kingdom of God is upon you. Like today, the promises of the Messiah, the promises of the kingdom, are being fulfilled in your presence.

Speaker 3: 10:40

And the Jews were like they were just losing it. They were going crazy because they were like how dare this guy? He's setting himself up to be God, he's calling himself the son of man, he's claiming authority with God, okay. So they're getting really, really mad at this, okay. But he does some other things. He shows up and he starts casting out demons, just by his word. Now again, like if you just get to the first century, if you just crack open the New Testament and you start reading about demon-possessed people. The Old Testament doesn't really talk about that a whole lot. It doesn't talk specifically about the problem of demon possession.

Speaker 3: 11:16

But, when you get to the first century. It's just there and the authors, the disciples who are writing these gospels just assume the readers are going to understand what these things are. Okay, so we have to do some work, we have to do some study to understand this. But essentially, jesus shows up and he starts casting out demons from bodies, from people, these spirits that would possess people, torment people. That is a sign. What Jesus is doing is a sign of the Messiah.

Speaker 3: 11:48

The Jews were anticipating that when the Messiah would have power over these spiritual beings. So they had exorcists in the first century, guys that would go around and do little incantations or chants or some of it. If they were Jews they would sometimes read passages of the Old Testament as like exorcist passages to try to deal with these spirits, but they weren't always successful, like they had to follow these really strict formulas to try to exercise spirits. This is actually really cool. I really appreciate the series the Chosen Because the very first episode of the Chosen they actually depict this when Nicodemus he's a lead Pharisee and he's called upon to go do an exorcism of Mary Magdalene, and so he just shows up and they're trying to exorcise these demons from her and they're doing their rituals and they're unsuccessful. They can't it. So this is, this is the, the worldview where jesus shows up and he just, he's just telling demons to get out. He doesn't get out. You know, out of here, yeah, you know okay, out okay, that so.

Speaker 3: 13:03

So the people are mesmerized that how does this man have this kind of authority, how does he have this kind of power to do this? Well, that is a mark of the Messiah. The Messiah would have power over the demons. Okay.

Speaker 3: 13:18

So that's really cool. He does, and there's several passages. So when you get to like passages of a legion, this is one of those passages where he shows up and they're like the demons know who he is, they know he's the son of the Most High, but they don't know why he's here. They say have you come to punish us before the time? That's the question that they ask him which is a really strange thing.

Speaker 3: 13:46

Again, we don't have time to unpack all of that but essentially they think he's early. They're like, hey, we're allowed to be here for a certain amount of time. This is Jewish literature, you learn this. They're allowed to kind of roam the earth for a certain amount of time and they're like what are you doing here, so? And they're like what are you doing here? So they don't. This is important to understand. They don't understand his plan. When Satan shows up and he tempts Jesus in Matthew 4, he doesn't quite understand Jesus' plan. He's fishing for information, he's tempting Jesus and there's some parallels with the temptations where Jesus is passing, the temptations that Israel failed in the Old Testament. But Satan is offering him things. He says, hey, here's some bread. And Jesus says, man, we'll not live by bread alone. And then he says, well, throw yourself off the top of the temple. And then he says Satan quotes Psalm 91 to Jesus, which, interestingly enough, is an exorcist psalm.

Speaker 1: 14:46

Is it what?

Speaker 3: 14:47

It's an exorcist psalm. The Jews actually would use that psalm in exorcist rituals. It's the psalm that talks about the sun will not strike you by day, nor the moon by night the arrow that flies by day. If you read that passage well, again we're kind of opening up cans of worms. But essentially that was a psalm that they would read to do confrontations. So Satan actually kind of quotes that to Jesus, sort of in a mocking way, and then Jesus quotes scripture back to him and says you will not tempt the Lord, don't put your Lord to the test.

Speaker 3: 15:36

But Satan is kind of wondering what's he up to? And then the final test is he offers him. This is really interesting. He offers him all the kingdoms of the world. If he would, what? Bow down and worship him. Yeah, so Satan somehow has the authority to grant these kingdoms, and so he suspects that Jesus is here to accomplish God's mission of bringing the nations back to him. So he's trying to thwart God's plan. This is what Satan is doing throughout all the Old Testament. Satan knows God's prophecy about the Messiah and about all of this, so he is trying to thwart God's plan.

Speaker 3: 16:13

Well he can't do it there. And so I think it's. Luke says that when he departs, he departs Jesus. He says he departs and waits for another opportune time, and that next time is at the crucifixion. Okay so, but Jesus shows up. He's casting out demons. He's saying the kingdom of God is here, it's upon you. He eventually gives his disciples the same power to cast out demons, and they're like I can't believe it. We can do this too. We can. The demons are subject to us. We can do this too. The demons are subject to us. We can cast them out. And he says don't rejoice in that. Rejoice that your name is written in the book of life, which I think is something that we should remember too. But then you know, so he's casting out the demons. Well then, at his crucifixion, that's when Satan comes back into the picture and he enters into Judas. There's a conspiracy. So again, human and satanic rebellion together there's this conspiracy to kill Jesus. So they crucify Jesus, and then Jesus is raised from the dead.

Speaker 3: 17:28

Now we learned like through the New Testament we learned what happens spiritually, what happens in the spiritual realm when this is going on. You know, colossians 2 says that when Christ was crucified he nails our sin to the cross. And when he does that, paul says he strips the powers of darkness of their authority and puts them to open shame. Now, like, why would he do that? Well, there's an interesting allusion in Psalm 22, which is the crucifixion Psalm. If most people are familiar with that, psalm 22 has a lot of images that's quoted in the gospels as a depiction of the crucifixion. Well, there's this passage. There's a verse in Psalm 22 that talks about the bulls of Bashan surrounding me. Like the psalmist laments, the bulls of Bashan have surrounded me.

Speaker 3: 18:14

I'm going to short circuit that explanation to say that is likely an allusion to spiritual beings that are surrounding the cross. Spiritual beings that are surrounding the cross, that Satan and his minions are surrounding the cross and leading. They're colluding basically behind humans and leading to crucify Jesus. Again, they don't understand God's plan. So they think they're stopping God's plan here. If they can crucify the guy that clearly demonstrates that he's the son of God, so if they can crucify him here they'll stop God's plan. But Paul says, he actually puts them to open. Shame on the cross. And this is the cool thing about what Jesus is doing is that I tell my students God doesn't play dominoes, he plays chess.

Speaker 3: 19:03

And he's the greatest chess player that ever was. Because in 2 Corinthians 1, oh 1 Corinthians 2. Paul is explaining that the wisdom of God is hidden from human beings and it's hidden from the ages. And he says had the rulers of the age known, they would not have crucified. Had they known the wisdom of God, they would not have crucified the Son of God. And a lot of people gloss over that and they think Paul's talking about not just Pilate and the Jews. But that doesn't seem to be what he's talking about, because whenever Paul talks about the rulers of the age kind of that language, that is a very strong, the evidence is very strong let's say that that's pointing to spiritual beings. So God, essentially very strong.

Speaker 3: 19:57

Let's say that that's pointing to spiritual beings Makes sense yeah. So God essentially tricks Satan and the demons and these what do you call them? The powers of darkness, the guys that are ruling the nations, the bad guys tricks them all and they kill the Messiah, the sinless one, and they don't understand that he had to die to redeem humanity. So this is God's sort of backward way of redeeming humanity, and they don't realize that they're being used. God is using them.

Speaker 1: 20:31

That's interesting, though, tim, because I think the perspective that most people have is that Satan did know, and the reason why he was tempting God away from those things was so that he didn't accomplish the mission of going to the cross, dying for our sins, raising again. So you're saying, if I'm hearing you right, it's that he didn't know, that that was part of the plan. He was just trying to gather information to, I guess, thwart a different plan or something?

Speaker 3: 20:58

Yeah, if Satan actually knew God's plan, why did he lead Judas to crucify Jesus? It's true, yeah, so that's again another part of that traditional theory that doesn't cohere, it's not coherent with the story. So yeah, god essentially tricks them.

Speaker 1: 21:14

Can I ask one more question? Yeah, go ahead. This one is more so. You said we hear about this demon possession in the New Testament. We don't see it in the Old Testament. Are you saying, then, that that wasn't happening in the Old Testament? Did that only happen when Jesus came into the picture?

Speaker 3: 21:34

You know that's a good question it was. It's not talked about in the old testament. There there are um references to it, I think in in second temple, jewish literature, things that are outside of the old testament, but they do talk about, uh, this problem of evil spirits that torment people yeah so that category is there in the Jewish mind, but it's just not.

Speaker 3: 21:58

It's not talked about in the Old Testament as much, because I don't think well. So for the New Testament writers, this is very important to understand who Jesus is. His ability to exercise and deliver people from the demonic powers is very important to understand who he is.

Speaker 1: 22:15

Because that was prophesied about him.

Speaker 3: 22:17

Yeah. In the Old Testament, the Messiah, the Son of man, is depicted as conquering all of these nations and the forces that are in rebellion against him. Okay. There's just a different purpose in writing.

Speaker 3: 22:36

But when Jesus is crucified, he strips the powers of their, of their authority, strips them. Paul, says he. He strips them of those powers and he puts them to open. Shame, like, basically, like you guys lose really cool passages. That Peter, that that first Peter passage we talked about with the guys that are locked up. It says when Jesus was buried and this is in the Apostles' Creed too he descends into Hades. And this is 1 Peter 3. He preaches to the spirits who were in prison.

Speaker 3: 23:10

Now, a lot of times people will read that as, oh, he preached to the Old Testament saints, everyone who's died and is waiting in Sheol. Now that might be the case, but that doesn't seem to be what Peter is talking about. So Jesus seems to go down there and say bet you didn't expect me here. Jesus is human, so as a human, all humans die and all humans have to go to the place of the dead. So I like what another scholar his name is Joel Menomayeh. I love what he said. There's no shortcuts for jesus.

Speaker 3: 23:40

Jesus is fully man, so he has to follow the path that human beings would follow. So when he dies, even though he's sinless, he goes to the place where human beings go awaiting judgment. But when he goes there, uh, it says the new Testament is death, couldn't hold him. So he goes there and and he basically says like because, like I'm here and I win, yeah, and. And then we see from revelation one he then claims the, the keys of death and Hades for himself. He gets to claim those things Because in being sinless, they had no authority to keep him there. And then, being raised from the dead as God, he now has conquered all of it. So he defeats them, it so he defeats them, and this is what. So when Paul says this is 1.

Speaker 3: 24:44

Peter 3, like he declares victory, basically, in his resurrection. He declares victory over it all, and so when people come into Jesus' kingdom, they then are rescued from that domain of darkness, because Jesus has the authority to rescue them from that domain. So when we give our life to Christ, our life, paul says we're buried with Christ in his death and we are raised in his resurrection. So when believers die, they don't have to go to the place where unbelievers go. They go to be with Christ because they belong to him. Isn't that cool. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.

Speaker 3: 25:25

But when Jesus, he rises from the dead and then, when he ascends, he tells his disciples go into all the world and preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations, yeah, baptizing them and teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. Because in that same passage he says all authority is given unto me on heaven and earth. Isn't that cool. It's like his crucifixion and his resurrection he defeats, he reverses, like 1 John says he came to undo the works of the devil, he came to reverse all of these cosmic rebellions that happened and he is doing that. So when his first coming, he inaugurates that process. And then now, as his believers, when he departs, he says I'm going to go away, and then the Holy Spirit is going to come and indwell you guys. And then now, the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 3: 26:22

When people, christians, as they, are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they go out into the world, they are representations of God's presence, his new kingdom in the world, and that kingdom is spreading throughout all the nations. And so the task of the church is to go and to take the gospel to the nations and spread the kingdom of god all over the earth, and in so doing we reclaim the nations. God uses us to reclaim the nations for himself. Yeah, that that is the story of the Bible. So when you get to Revelation, it says there's this great sea of people from every tongue, nation and people, and Satan and his angels. They are thrown into the lake of fire and God creates a new heaven and a new earth. This is the story that's taking place and we're in the middle of it yeah right now.

Speaker 3: 27:19

That's. That's the narrative of the scriptures I love that yeah so let's get into some like how do we understand spiritual warfare? Now, that's the topic of this episode.

Speaker 3: 27:29

That's exactly yeah so I think let me blow up some myths real quick. There's's some myths that say well, the pinnacle of spiritual warfare is these sort of power encounters with demonic entities, like going around and ghost hunting, and I would say that's not the pinnacle of spiritual warfare. Spiritual warfare, primarily, is advancing the gospel in the world. Now, I don't mean to, I don't say that so that we can ignore the demonic stuff, okay right, um, but, and I was going thinking in the other direction- where it was uh uh, spiritual warfare for the most part, I think.

Speaker 1: 28:10

When we, when we look at it from the christian perspective, I think most people think that it's fighting against some sort of sin that the devil is bringing upon us. Is that part of it?

Speaker 3: 28:23

Yeah, that's a good question. I would say there's levels to this.

Speaker 3: 28:27

Okay, there's just like in any war, there's going to be skirmishes, campaigns and other things like that. So you know, I was in the military. In the military, you know you, you have your divisions, your platoons, companies, squads, all that stuff, and you have your missions. So you have your campaigns, you have your wars, but at the individual level, as a soldier, you have your personal responsibilities. You have your, you have your pcis, as they call them PCCs, like your personal equipment, the things that you are responsible to take care of as a soldier, because you got to be ready to fight alongside your buddies.

Speaker 3: 29:07

So I would say, like, when it comes to spiritual disciplines and things like that, I would liken it to that Like that is one level of spiritual warfare where you have to be healthy yourself. You're responsible as a Christian to fight against sin, fight against the flesh, that depravity that we wrestle with, using the new nature and the Holy Spirit to do that. That is a way of resisting the devil. Another level is the church body itself going out into the world and preaching the gospel. Another side aspect would be, I think, that the ministry of and I call it a ministry the ministry of exorcism or deliverance as we might call it, and we'll get into that in episode three, I think a little bit.

Speaker 3: 29:54

But yeah, so there's different levels to spiritual warfare bit. But yeah, so there's different levels to spiritual warfare. Typically when people think about this they go straight to Ephesians 6, which is that armor of God passage, put on the whole armor of God, and they go through the different listings and there's all kinds of Bible studies on what each piece of the armor means. I don't mean to make light of those things, you know, because it's something to them, but we won't get into, like, the details of that. But I would direct people to a couple things in that passage. One Paul says. He says we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but we wrestle against principalities. Again, what is Satan? He's a prince. He's called the prince in power of the air in the New Testament. He's a prince.

Speaker 3: 30:34

He's called the prince in power of the air in the New Testament. What were these other guys in the Old Testament? The prince of Persia, the prince of Greece? So Paul says we wrestle with principalities and powers and rulers in heavenly places. So Jesus, like, when Jesus disarms them on the cross, he nullifies their authority and he gives us the authority to go in and advance his kingdom. But these guys, these powers of darkness, let's say, are resisting the advance of the gospel. Okay, and our task as a church is to we put on the armor as a unit and we march forward and we advance the gospel. And Paul says you take up the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, that's. That's not just like memorizing the Bible the word of God there likely refers to the preaching of the gospel Like that is the sword by which we advance against these powers. So we don't go around trying to like pray against the demon over Washington DC, or like there's a thing called strategic level spiritual warfare.

Speaker 3: 31:54

There's people who are involved in this and try to do it. I don't think there's any warrant for that. In Scripture, what we're told to do is go and advance the gospel. We're not supposed to try to go like our egos make us think oh, let's go out and call out the demons and let's go pick a fight with them. That's not what we're told to do. We address it like and if we follow the example of the apostles, we address it when it comes up, or it's a ministry to deliver people from affliction, but it's not like, it's not something where, like they didn't go and start like hey, who's the guy over rome? Like let's go, let's go cast him out. No, they're preaching the gospel, yeah, and taking the gospel to the nations and it's not.

Speaker 1: 32:38

It's not a fruit of the spirit and is it one of the gifts? I don't think I see it in corinthians um to be able to cast out, even though it was happening, I guess, in acts and other places, but I don't think I've heard people talk about it as the gift of being able to exercise or yeah, I don't think there's.

Speaker 3: 32:57

I don't think there's biblical evidence for it being a gift. That's not to say that certain people can't be gifted with it. I don't think the gifts of the New Testament are exhaustive. That's my view. Okay, but we have to be really careful there to say well, I have this gift. I have the gift of accounting or something from the Holy Spirit. I have this gift, I have the gift of accounting or something from the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1: 33:27

So, with exorcism or anything dealing with miraculous, supernatural things. We have to be really, really careful, because that's how a lot of these people present themselves.

Speaker 3: 33:32

Yeah, there's a lot of false teachers. I mean, jesus warns about wolves in sheep's clothing that come into the congregation. So I do think there are believers who probably have a special sense or discernment about them to sense these things, if not, see them, see, you know, in the spiritual realm. But I don't. I think we need to be really, really careful and test that stuff. So yeah, just to wrap up your question, with spiritual warfare in the New Testament as it's presented personal level, spiritual disciplines, holy living, corporate level, with the church is preaching the gospel, being in unity with one another. We have to remain on guard. Together In your families. You have to be sanctified, like Paul says, with husbands and wives. Don't let the sun go down upon your wrath, lest you give place to the devil. So the spiritual warfare looks like.

Speaker 3: 34:32

I like what there's a Catholic exorcist that I was listening to a few months ago. I like what he said about this. He described the spiritual realm as very juridical, very legal, and that it's a legal battleground where Satan and his he's called the accuser in the Bible. They're seeking footholds to accuse people. They're seeking footholds to harass people, to afflict people. So when people sin, they give ground to that and they give themselves over to that. So we shouldn't be naive to think that Satan can't afflict even Christians or the demons can't afflict even Christians with things. I don't think we'll get into the idea of possession in part three. How are we doing on time, by the way?

Speaker 1: 35:23

Pretty good. Yeah, we have maybe 10 minutes.

Speaker 3: 35:25

Yeah, but yeah, so, so anyway. So that's the depiction of spiritual warfare, is there's different levels to it? But primarily we preach the gospel, we live holy lives and when necessary, we do the ministry of exorcism in a very, very sober way. And I don't think that's for everyone. I don't even mean to pass myself off as some sort of expert on that, because I've never had that kind of encounter. I don't desire to have that sort of expert on that because I've never had that kind of encounter. I don't desire to have that. There are people who do that as a ministry and I respect them for that. So it's not something as I tell my students, we should not go around flippantly seeking out supernatural encounters. It is extremely dangerous. Do not do that.

Speaker 1: 36:12

And that's the move of the culture too. That you mentioned, I think, in the first episode and alluded to it a little bit in this one is that people are seeking the spiritual, but they're moving into this new age space where they're open to everything and intentionally seeking it out. So I think it's good for us to just kind of give the audience that warning of this is information for you to have, but don't go and seek this stuff out.

Speaker 3: 36:36

Yeah, yeah, here's a, here's a better way, like we don't, not that you should do this, you don't do this arrogantly, but evangelism I like what Michael Heiser says evangelism and baptism are spiritual warfare. When we do those things like, we are rescuing people from the domain of darkness, the domain, a kingdom, a realm. Okay, people belong to that realm, they're in bondage to it. When we preach the gospel and they hear the light of the gospel and they believe they are rescued, just like we are, from that domain of darkness. I tell my students you can't really appreciate the gospel until you appreciate what you've been rescued from. Yeah, and.

Speaker 3: 37:17

Satan again. Satan wants to murder us. He wants to destroy people. He loves to destroy people, and so there's billions of people walking around in darkness. We have the light, and so we go about rescuing people into the kingdom of light from the domain of darkness, and that's through evangelism and baptism.

Speaker 3: 37:40

And here's what's cool, paul. I always say that's cool because I just get, so I just get I nerd out on this subject. You know, paul says in Ephesians three, this is before Ephesians six. Three comes before six. Okay, he says in Ephesians three, this is Ephesians 3, 7 through 13. He's talking about the wisdom of God from the ages. Okay, this is Paul setting this whole thing up in Ephesians, the book of Ephesians.

Speaker 3: 38:07

In Ephesians 3, he says God is making known his wisdom from before fourth foundation of the earth. He is making known that wisdom through the church, through the body of believers as they go about doing God's work in this kingdom, in the world and growing up to be the body of Christ. He says that kind of wisdom, god is using that to make known his wisdom to the rulers in heavenly places. These are the same rulers that Paul mentions later on in Ephesians 6. So God is using these dummies like us, these dumb sheep who can't see. We can't see what's going on in the spiritual realm. We understand what God gives us in the scriptures. We are limited. We're a bunch of meat sacks. We get tired, we have to sleep, we have to eat. We're the sheep. We're helpless. And God is using us, is using his church to make known his wisdom to these so-called rulers in heavenly places that Christ has disenfranchised, now disembodied or not disarmed. Yeah, disarmed is what I'm looking for. So God is using us to do that.

Speaker 1: 39:38

It's cool to be part of.

Speaker 3: 39:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah so, yeah, um, really quick, what to do? Christians should remember that the spiritual realm is real. Um, satan and his, his uh ranks. They the powers of darkness. They influence thoughts. They influence the thought patterns of the world at a very high level and then at a very personal level, they can at least insert thoughts into people's minds, and so they can tempt people that way. That seems to be an ability that they have, so we need to be on guard for that.

Speaker 3: 40:18

Christians shouldn't live in fear of that. You know, we have the ability to resist it and the power of Christ. So we should not buy into the Hollywood depiction of these things that creates this image of being so fantastic and so horrific and so terrifying that we wouldn't even, we wouldn't even want to dare approach it. And that's, I think, where a lot of Christians are. It's like you start talking about this stuff and they're like, oh, they get really superstitious or a little stitious, okay, and they shouldn't be. Christ has given us the kingdom and the power. Now, again, we don't want to be arrogant, so you don't want to go around just seeking out these encounters, thinking that you're going to punch a demon in the face. Because I guarantee you?

Speaker 3: 41:03

well, I can't guarantee you, but I would wager that that's not going to happen. That's not going to go the way you expect.

Speaker 1: 41:08

Right, right, I'm thinking right now, Tim. I think this was part of this episode we're talking about, but you mentioned we don't want to become prideful or arrogant. Right, and a lot of talk in Christian circles is oh, you're displaying the spirit of pride or you're displaying the spirit of some other sin.

Speaker 1: 41:29

Yeah their sin. Is there anything to that? Because what I'm hearing when people say that is you know you're allowing a sin to take over. But the big conversation around this topic is can Christians be possessed or obsessed with a type of spirit? Are they referring to the same thing? Is this conversation when they say you have the spirit of pride? Is this a demon that has pride, that is answering the Christian or taking over the life of the Christian. That's a good question.

Speaker 3: 42:06

That'll be a good segue to part three, because I think when people ask the question about demon possession, they might mean complete control or ownership. I think that's typically what people mean when they ask can Christians be possessed? Now the popular conversations have created this other category called oppressed. Christians can be oppressed but not possessed and that, I think, basically means harassed, afflicted and things like that, and so we'll get into that in part three. But I think that when people talk about the sin of pride and other things, the New Testament does link these things to the devil and to the demonic realm. Now James warns us when you're tempted, don't say, oh, I'm tempted of God. Right right.

Speaker 3: 43:02

Or you know, I guess in that matter, always say the devil made me do it. He says when people are tempted, they're drawn away in their own lusts and desires. Now, satan can use those things. He does use those things, but we need to be really careful, yeah, because sometimes people can be influenced by the powers of darkness, through pride, through lust, through other things. Peter says to Ananias and Sapphira why has Satan filled your heart? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:35

When Jesus says to Peteranias and Sophia why has Satan filled your heart? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When Jesus says to Peter, get behind me, satan. He's not saying, oh, satan has now entered Peter, but Peter is opposing Christ's plan as if Satan would. So Peter is unaware that he's acting. He's acting out in the way that Satan would.

Speaker 1: 43:54

That's good yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:55

So that would be a division.

Speaker 1: 43:56

I would say and I want to clarify because we've said possessed yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, We've said oppressed, but there's also the obsessed, which means the person becomes so focused on that realm that that kind of consumes them being overtaken by all of the like you see it everywhere.

Speaker 1: 44:19

You see it everywhere, right you read it into everything and that does influence how you live your christian life and it does influence you know, we'll talk about uh later in your mental health. Yeah, um. So that's why I wanted to see those three things that there's oppression, and then there's also the obsession of the supernatural.

Speaker 3: 44:36

Yeah, obsession can create paranoia.

Speaker 1: 44:39

Exactly.

Speaker 3: 44:40

And other things like that, where you think, oh, the demon's out to get me or something. There's probably a fourth category I would say, and I don't know the term for it other than dismissive.

Speaker 2: 44:53

Yeah, that's good or trivialization this really frosts me term for it other than dismissive, yeah, yeah, which is which is where.

Speaker 3: 44:55

Or trivialization. This really, this really frosts me when I, when I hear, I hear, I hear evangelicals they make such trivial jokes about the spiritual realm, like, oh, satan's just trying to get you to drink that second cup of coffee or he's just trying to get you to look at your smartphone during the sermon. Like, oh, okay, like, maybe, but I doubt it. Okay, I doubt that. All right, it just trivializes. It's a sinful nature. Yeah, it's just true, yeah, it's sinful nature. And it just trivializes the whole thing. It trivializes the war that we're in. It's like, imagine, like you know, a mom you know in in 1942, like a son's not eating his vegetables. She's like, oh, like hitler would be so proud of you, right now it's like what?

Speaker 3: 45:41

because he didn't eat his peas anyway. That's an extreme example. I don't know. I just thought of that, but you know, it just trivializes the whole thing. So I really, I really get annoyed when people, when people do that. It's a serious thing. It's the war that we're in. We live in an embattled cosmos. We're thrown into this world. We don't have a choice. Well, you do have a choice. Calvinists are going to get mad at me for that.

Speaker 3: 46:07

But you have a choice. You can follow Christ or not. That's your choice, but you don't have a choice of what warrior in here in the war, by the way. So, as I tell my students, theology is a love for the truth and the war for the truth.

Speaker 1: 46:25

Yeah, okay, all right. Well, we will move on to the last part of this series and hopefully you can join us next week. Have a good one.