Ep. 20 - Spiritual Warfare, Part 3: What's the Connection Between Mental Health and Demonic Possession?

Episode Outline
0:02 - Spiritual Warfare and Mental Health
11:34 - Mental Health vs. Demon Possession
22:57 - Exploring Spiritual Realm in Mental Health
34:23 - Power of Prayer in Spiritual Warfare
39:22 - Spiritual Realm and Mental Health
50:23 - Understanding Deliverance Ministry in Counseling
1:01:13 - Guarding Against Entertainment-Based Theology

What if the line between mental health disorders and demonic possession is blurrier than we've ever imagined? You won't want to miss our latest episode of Psych and Theo, where Sam and I confront this provocative question head-on. We embark on a captivating journey through history, highlighting how behaviors once deemed demonic were often misunderstood psychological disorders, and we emphasize the importance of a balanced biblical perspective to avoid obsession and paranoia.

Prepare to have your worldview challenged as we dissect the contrasting perspectives of secular mental health professionals and those who believe in demonic possession. Through an in-depth analysis of symptoms like paranoia, delusions, and hallucinations, we underscore the necessity of accurate assessment and treatment. From personal anecdotes to professional experiences, we delve into the complexities Christian mental health professionals face, particularly when dealing with clients having a history of occult involvement.

But that's not all. We also share the powerful story of a Christian psych ward worker who encountered what appeared to be a demon-possessed patient, illustrating the critical role of prayer and fasting in spiritual warfare. We wrap up by cautioning against entertainment-based theology, urging our listeners to ground their beliefs in scripture rather than popular media. Join us for a thought-provoking episode filled with real-life stories, professional insights, and spiritual wisdom.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Well, welcome back everyone to another episode of Psych and Theo. We are going to get rolling here on the third installment of Spiritual Warfare, demon Possession and Mental Health. In this episode I'm going to get to interview Sam. So Sam talked to me for two episodes about biblical worldview and the spiritual realm and things like that, and so now we're going to spin it around and we're going to talk about the topic of demon possession as it relates to the topic of mental health profession the mental health profession and Sam has just turned his hat backwards, so you know he is down to brawl here.

Speaker 2: 0:41

Like over the top. Did you see that movie?

Speaker 1: 0:44

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, the see a movie. Uh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're arm wrestling.

Speaker 1: 0:46

Oh yeah, podcast mode, yeah, yeah, so okay, here we go so, uh, so, yeah, so again, just to preface this, uh, our audience, you know we're talking about something that's heavy, um, we're we're talking about the dark side and, um, essentially, how to take out the trash. I like what I don't know if I mentioned this in the previous episodes or if I just was talking to someone about this, but something I read as I was doing my research on this topic, which I've read a lot of books on it something that there was a Catholic exorcist by the name of Malachi Martin. A Catholic exorcist by the name of Malachi Martin. He wrote a couple books on the subject, just about his experiences.

Speaker 1: 1:26

In a small little book where he was being interviewed by a journalist, the journalist asked him something about, like you know, should people study this? Or what is it like to study this topic? Should people study it? And he said no, like they shouldn't focus or study this topic too in depth because it's like it's like studying sewage or studying the trash. It's like you, you have to know some things about it just to be safe. But someone who becomes obsessed with sewage or becomes obsessed with trash, that person's not mentally healthy, you know.

Speaker 1: 2:04

So if you focus too much on the trash and sewage, it starts to warp. You and I've seen that with people where they. They start to, they get into this topic and then they, they. It's like one step leads to another down the paranormal train and they get into all kinds of crazy topics where it's not bad to learn a little bit about, like those things like ufos and and the alien phenomenon and all that other stuff. But but uh, it could very easily take people down these rabbit holes where it kind of warps their mind and, like I think what you said in one of the previous episodes was obsession yeah where they become obsessed and paranoid with a topic like this.

Speaker 1: 2:41

So we just want to caution our audience. We were addressing this issue biblically and from a standpoint of informing people of how to think properly about this, without buying into the Hollywood myths of being terrified of the subject, but also not just becoming so obsessed with it where, as Paul says, you get taken away you get drawn away from the simplicity of Christ and, instead of witnessing to people and worrying about the normal day-to-day of being a Christian, you become this demon hunter.

Speaker 2: 3:15

Like.

Speaker 1: 3:15

I'm going to go out and fight the battles and you just become a very weird person or worse, you open yourself up to danger. So anyway, sorry, okay. So this is not my episode, this is your episode, so let's, let's get into this, uh, but anyway. So, yeah, just our audience, you know. If you got little ones listening, just you know, caution, like we're gonna be talking about some heavy things here.

Speaker 1: 3:36

Okay, sam, let's get into this so uh, just to recap with our, our audience, the last two episodes we talked about biblical worldview and the spiritual realm and how to understand the hierarchy of the powers of darkness, and how to read in the New Testament, how to understand that in light of the gospel and the Great Commission and taking the gospel to the world. There is this granular, individual, like personal problem of demon possession, which is a real thing. We see examples of that in the New Testament. There's the church fathers talk about it in church history. You know there's examples of it all throughout church history.

Speaker 1: 4:19

So it's an issue that the church has been aware of for thousands of years, shows up in almost every culture, really every culture. Okay, but when we get to the modern age of mental health, mental health profession, psychology, psychiatry when did so? Here's my first question for you when did the mental health profession start to address this issue of demonic possession? Can you provide us with like a brief overview of the history here of psychologists and counselors starting to home in on this, really what was previously a religious topic?

Speaker 2: 5:00

Yeah, yeah, no, it's a great question, tim, and I think one of the things I was preparing for this episode that I started to realize very early on is that this has been an issue for the church, and what I mean by that is Christians in particular are the ones who have placed the focus on this aspect of the demonic possession and being a counseling issue, because I'll make this difference as we move through the episodes but we have often conflated these psychological disorders with demonic possession, meaning that the more information that we've gathered throughout the years so if we started in 1850s till now, there's been information gathering on mental health issues, right, things that we didn't understand were just called demonic, right, if there are characteristics such as seeing things or hearing things, you know people because they didn't know what that actually entailed. In regards to a particular disorder, it was just called oh, that's demonic. That must be demonic, because I'm not experiencing that. That's abnormal behavior, right, we talked a little bit about abnormal behavior in one of our previous episodes. It was a deviation from the norm. So, in regards to, has it made even an impact in the field of counseling? I don't think it has. I think what's happened is that the church or Christian counselors have, because they have an orientation to it, the spiritual realm. They have been able to focus on that a little bit more so, and I hate to use this terminology, but it is kind of what it is. This aspect of it's a market Meaning. So the Christians who have gone through, who have done counseling, are seeing spiritual issues come up with their clients and they have to make the distinction of is this a spiritual issue or is this a psychological disorder issue? And we'll get into schizophrenia, did, even suicide, a little bit later.

Speaker 2: 6:59

But very interestingly enough, dean Deanne C Klepper, she's an associate professor of religion from Boston University and she put it this way while thinking about mental illness as an attack by demons might seem silly to the scientifically minded among us, we clearly still operate out of a sense of fear of those who exhibit confusing, agitated, unusual behaviors, and I think that's going to be one of the key markers here, that aspect of fear. And then she says I think that by taking a long look and using the evocative model of demonic obsession and response, we might be able to explore our own fears and prejudices towards people suffering from mental illness for whom we should have compassion. So to set the stage here for those who are listening. If you have had thoughts about the spiritual realm, the supernatural, demonic obsession or possession and oppression, then this is probably going to make more sense to you. This was a straw that I had in preparing for this is that I don't dabble in talks about the demonic possession and obsession and oppression. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, though, right. So as a Christian, I have, I understand I mean, the Bible talks about this that there's this aspect of we're at war with the principalities and powers, and, tim, you give a great talk on that in our previous episodes, but, yeah, so those who are Christian understand that. So we have almost a broader view of what's actually going on than secular counselors, because we take the spiritual aspect, I would say, much more seriously, right? So that's one of the things.

Speaker 2: 8:42

And here's another interesting response from the supervising psychiatrist at Community Mental Health Center in Boston Harbor, benson Harbor, I'm sorry when asked if he believed in ghosts and ghosts are different than spirits, but it's kind of like in the same realm. Professionally, no, personally, I'm not sure. There are some ghosts that medication doesn't seem to get rid of, right? So some interesting data just on what people believe in regards to these beliefs. So a post from Past Techie tells that 40 to 50 percent of the population still believe in demonic possession and there's some evidence that cases of reported possession have been on the rise in recent years. Survey results show that 44 percent of Americans over the age of 65 believe in demon possession and 57 of those between ages of 47 to 65. So it comes back to that aspect of religion and spirituality. Because that's been declining throughout the years.

Speaker 2: 9:42

You would assume, or we would assume, that there would be also a decrease in demonic possession, right? So only those who are spiritually minded, who are focused in this aspect of wanting to connect with their spiritual selves. There's so many things to choose from nowadays that I don't really know what's impacting the person in regards to their mental health, you know, regarding this aspect of demonic possession. So historically, counselors, secular counselors have not really picked up on this aspect of demonic possession because it's seen more of a Christianity type of thing. So the ones who I'm seeing kind of making an imprint in that field are Christians who want to address the topic and are willing to go there. I don't feel competent to go into that space and there's obviously going to be numerous trainings and areas where people can actually deal with this aspect of demonic possession deliverance. We will talk about that later.

Speaker 1: 10:53

But I'm not there and I'm still, in a lot of ways, wrestling with that. Okay, so it to. Here's my second question. Maybe this will kind of dig deeper on the first question about the history of how the mental health profession has tried to address this, or maybe not just kind of ignored it, I guess in some ways like kind of chalked it up to well, that's a, that's a religious thing, we're, we're gonna focus on non-religious or secular things.

Speaker 1: 11:12

Let's say, how have, how has the secular mental health profession explained the phenomenon of demon possession? So, um, like, whereas christians as you pointed out they are sometimes will conflate mental illness and demonic position as like all one thing they've done. That you know, I and we're both kind of aware of that. How is this? How is the mental health profession explained the phenomenon that, that is, the apparent uh, uh, demon possession that someone might have, or or the, let's say, the characteristics of what a christian might call a demon possession? How would a secular mental health professional explain that? Uh, characteristics like, uh, you know, seeing people speaking in different languages, uh, self-harm and and psychosis and all kinds of other things?

Speaker 2: 12:08

no, it's good, and I think it's important right here to look at these two different worldviews, meaning that there's one camp that is going to say it's psychological and there's another camp that's going to say spiritual. So let's look at the, just these descriptions and then, just based on the descriptions, tell me what you would conclude for better. Okay, and even though we, we kind of know some of this stuff, um so, suspiciousness, paranoid ideas or an easiness with others, trouble thinking clearly and logically, uh, difficult, difficulty telling reality from fantasy, decline in self-care or personal hygiene, confused speech or trouble communicating. So, just with those descriptions, would you say that's a spiritual, a demonic possession, or would you say it's more of a?

Speaker 1: 13:00

psychological disorder, I don't know. I mean, I think that my immediate response is I need more context I need more information okay like it sounds like someone's delirious or something like that.

Speaker 2: 13:11

You know okay, so when someone is experienced, sorry, I'm not. No, no, I'm not giving you a good response no, no, that's, that's perfect, because this is, this is sorry, I'll change my.

Speaker 1: 13:20

It's a daemon it's, uh, it's.

Speaker 2: 13:25

Whatever you believe about demon possession is going to influence your view of those things. So, for example, those descriptions have to do with psychosis and delusion, but if someone is wanting to believe or has this perspective of anything outside of the norm is demonic possession, then they're going to go with that. Oh, this is, this is demon possession.

Speaker 2: 13:47

You're, you're being influenced by the demon of delusion or paranoia right because I think we talked about this in our previous episodes is that a lot of times, with demons or with uh yeah, with demon possession, they're given a name, right, and it can be even be the, the demon of pride or something like that, right? So with a person who has that perspective, they're going to look at that and say, oh, it's the demon of paranoia. He's trying to get you to think, to be paranoid about all the world around you. Everyone's out to get you. So we need to deal with that, we need to call that spirit out and we need to, you know, directly, engage it and cast it out as a lie or something like that, right.

Speaker 2: 14:30

But someone who's and typically this would be a secular counselor they would look at it and say, no, this falls under psychosis and delusion. So maybe we need to get you on some medication so we could kind of minimize or limit the delusions, limit the psychosis, and then see what kind of treatment we can plan we can have after that, right, and then see what kind of treatment we can plan we can have after that right. So, whatever perspective, whatever camp you're on, that's the, that's the filter that they're going to be using in making these assessments okay, okay, so let me so.

Speaker 1: 14:54

I I'm glad you read those symptoms, because my next question was can you offer some examples of mental health disorders where symptoms might mimic what's commonly associated with, like supernatural things or demonic possession, like what are some mental health disorders whose symptoms mimic or look similar to demonic possession? What would be some examples of that?

Speaker 2: 15:21

That's good. Let's look at a couple more here and then we'll determine what they are. Hallucinations, right, the idea of having these sensory experiences where you're hearing, seeing or feeling things when there's nothing around you? Right, so that could be this aspect of oh, maybe there's spirits around me and they're, they're oppressing me at this moment. That's a hallucination, but that's only one characteristic of this disorder that I'm going to discuss in a little bit disorganized thinking and speech. That's often associated with demonic possession. Why? Because it's a different language or it's just not making sense and it's almost seen as this battle between the demon and the person's identity, right, and that's why there's this disorganized speech.

Speaker 2: 16:07

Abnormal motor behavior, right? So when you see kind of people making these weird movements with their body, what does that tell you? Is that a demon taking over? Or is that the person just kind of developing these type of movements because of their disease? Right, delusions, just false beliefs, despite evidence that they are not true.

Speaker 2: 16:28

So this would fall into the camp of schizophrenia, right? So schizophrenia when you talk about the description if a person doesn't do an accurate assessment or a good assessment of that person and they have the worldview of demonic possession and obsession and oppression, then they're going to land in that camp, right? So they're going to say try to look at it from a spiritual perspective, even though it might need a more psychological counseling approach to look at it from a spiritual perspective, even though it might need a more psychological counseling approach to to dealing with it. But a lot of these I mean schizophrenia is one I mentioned. I mentioned psychosis, dissociative identity disorder. Look at these ones a blurred sense of your own identity. So this aspect of okay, someone who has the worldview of demonic possession is probably gonna say are there multiple identities being at war here with each other, right? What's going on? What's going on with that?

Speaker 1: 17:16

that's disassociative identity disorder, dissociative identity disorder.

Speaker 2: 17:19

Yeah, it used to be called multiple personality disorder. Yeah, that became dissociative identity disorder, and the idea behind that was these different parts of yourself needed to come up to protect you, to keep you safe from whatever was that you experienced as a child. I'll probably show you this. I don't know if I showed this to you, tim, or not, but there was this interview. It was a news report of this lady who had dissociative identity disorder. I showed it to my class and she had seven different identities and they interviewed her and they said, okay, know, hey, you know. So name your, your identities and just kind of give us a description of who they are. And obviously they're.

Speaker 2: 18:02

They're doing video of her and she's describing each one. She says, hi, I'm jan, I'm the, I'm the. You know the care. And then she'll go into his deep voice. I'm John, I'm the one who protects, and she's doing all it. And her facial expressions change, her voice changes, their role within her life changes, like all of those things were so distinct in that one interview and each one of them had a specific role to keep her safe. So one of them I think there was one that was a little girl and basically her role was to let her have fun, to just enjoy the small things in life. So she would kind of revert to this little girl stage where she would talk like a little girl, she would ask for, like little baby carrots or something like that. So each personality had a role in her life. So that could be seen as something demonic. Right? If you don't have the information about it, that seems demonic.

Speaker 1: 18:58

But if it's true, did, it's the brain. It's the brain, it's fractured. Yeah, the brain is fragmenting. Think of it as almost like a pie chart, where there's different slices of the pie that are personalities and they're all taking turns in the spotlight.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:18

There's actually a really good movie called Split. Have you seen Split?

Speaker 2: 19:23

Yes, I did yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:24

It's dark, folks, it's dark.

Speaker 2: 19:26

There's another one, I think. I don't think you've seen it, but that was a really good movie. You won't get it until you watch it to the end I think I know where you're going.

Speaker 1: 19:34

Is that the one with john cusick?

Speaker 2: 19:35

yes, oh yeah, oh, man, that is such a good one, I know, man. Oh, I had to watch it three times before getting it.

Speaker 1: 19:41

Sorry, we're spoiling it for sure. Yeah, that is a good movie, but that's a good movie a lot of good, good roles in in that way.

Speaker 2: 19:48

But yeah, I mean, that was a good example of that particular case, but yeah, all of those things can seem demonic Again.

Speaker 2: 19:55

So for me, as a Christian counselor right, I'm looking at this and I have to make the distinction. Okay, what's at play here? What's the prominent issue here? Is it spiritual or is it trauma? Right, because the idea is specifically with trauma related. But one of the points I was making as I was doing the research for this is that when you experience trauma, the ones who have the perspective of demonic possession, they see trauma as an opening for demon possession. Right? So what they would argue is they would say well, if someone's experienced a lot of trauma, it's most likely demon possession, because trauma provides an opening for them to take over, because you're in a vulnerable state so there's an overlay.

Speaker 1: 20:40

Let's say they would. This is their argument that there's there's real like, let's say, trauma and did going on, but there's an overlay with like the demon would hide in that. Let's say that's their language. Demons hide in those things, as I heard. I've heard a Catholic priest say this and I've heard, you know, protestant people say this who are in the exorcism world, where mental health hospitals are like a hotbed of demonic activity because that's where they that's where the demons hide is through.

Speaker 1: 21:14

They hide under the guise of mental illnesses. So there's, there's like a real thing. There's a real um physiological or physical thing going on in the brain, but behind that is also a spiritual reality as well yeah, yeah so they're to give them credit, like they're not saying it's all a demon, but they're not materialists either.

Speaker 2: 21:35

Yeah, Maybe okay.

Speaker 1: 21:37

So this kind of gets into my next question, with you just dealing with the secular world, the materialist explanation of this that it's all in the brain. There's no supernatural explanation here. Are there dangers in denying the possibility of demonic influence or possession? When it comes to mental health, where do you think secular, naturalistic explanations of demonic possession fall short? Or just where do you think that maybe not explanations of demonic possession but explanations of mental health fall short? Like, essentially, is there a danger in denying the possibility of demonic influence?

Speaker 2: 22:22

It clashes a little bit with my approach or with my worldview in regards to it, but I think the idea or the important thing for everyone to take away is that you have to be open to, to that element, to the aspect there is a possibility for demonic possession. So, from a counselor perspective, we need to do our due diligence and really try to figure out. You know what the, what the root issue is. So, is there a danger in it? Yeah, I mean there there's definitely a danger, because you, if you don't assess correctly, you can't treat the problem Right. So one of the things that I would like to look at you know, we do a, an intake form and we look at their history and, um, one of the things I don't think I've seen that personally on an intake uh position, but I know people who have, and one of them is if they've been involved in the occult or if their parents have been involved in satanic type of activities. So if that's a part of their history, in my mind, that's part of my assessment, I'm saying okay.

Speaker 1: 23:25

So what are they your radar's up my radar's on right and I'm looking at that.

Speaker 2: 23:28

I'm like, okay, what are they presenting? And then, if they are presenting these different facets and again, even my experience with schizophrenia, the id is limited just because of my, the, the population that I work with. But in seeing interviews or seeing, uh, testimonies of people who have worked with them, um, yeah, I mean it's, it's gonna look, it's gonna look different. And I haven't heard and remember I'm in a christian setting with christian professor, christian counselors as many of them say, uh, that the trauma that they work with has been demon related. It's very small that we know a couple of professors who do deliverance work and they do work with, you know, demonic possessions and oppressions and so on. Um, but that hasn't been the norm.

Speaker 2: 24:12

And again, we're talking about Christian circles that are more open to the spiritual realm and the damage that can do to Christians, right, and we talked a little bit about this and I'd like to get your perspective on that too, is that you know, well, it's different with Christians too. They can be oppressed by demons, but they can't be possessed by them, right? So that worldview will also play a role in how they treat their clients. Are all our clients Christian, are some clients Christian, but they've been involved in satanic practices, you know. So there's, I think, the danger is not considering it as a potential factor yeah, that's a good point.

Speaker 1: 24:55

Okay, so let me ask you this, uh, and maybe we can both kind of dive into this one are there? Are there anecdotes or stories not antidotes, but anecdotes, as people get that wrong. Uh, that would confirm the reality of the spiritual realm to you. I leave that broadly as the spiritual realm, not just demonic possession, but we could talk about that. Are there stories or anecdotes in your experience as a mental health profession or even just as a Christian that confirm that demon possession is a real thing and it can happen at times? Or maybe, and we can explain this, maybe not demon possession, but demonization like the demonic influence or oppression we might call it.

Speaker 2: 25:40

Yeah, I think a couple of examples that I'm thinking of right now that I have interacted with a lot, and I think christians with the or counselors, with the mindset of there is they're open to the, the reality of demonic possession, oppression and so on. Um, suicidal behavior, for for a good while that was often associated with demonic possession. Right, because it's this, this aspect of destroying the body. And what? What way does one seek to destroy the body? Suicidal thoughts, suicidal ideation, suicidal behavior, cutting and so on. So a lot of dark, dark practices there.

Speaker 2: 26:22

So when we talked about suicidal behavior in Christian circles, imagine if, imagine someone comes in right and they're cutting themselves themselves. You know a lot of that has to do with room, kind of I'd rather feel physical pain than emotional pain. So there's a lot of cutting involved. But then they get, they step it up a notch and now they've had an attempt, suicidal attempt, right, they loaded a gun, knife. Whatever the case is, imagine that person who's struggling and suffering and don't want anything to do with their life.

Speaker 2: 26:49

At that moment a person comes in and they have the perspective of demonic possession and say you know, it's a demon, it very well could be, so they might do a deliverance and they might cast out that demon and maybe that's the end of it. There's no more suicidal ideation. But if it's not that, so if I misdiagnose that, then I don't get to treat the person for what they're actually suffering with. Right, there's a reason why they wanted to take their life. There's a reason why they're at that stage in their life Usually loneliness, right, no social support, ongoing problems or situations, you know, trauma in their background. A lot of different reasons for that. But I have to diagnose correctly, right? So there was a time where suicidal behavior was attached to demonic possession. I don't know if you've, if you've heard that yourself or have seen.

Speaker 1: 27:40

Well, I think that kind of plays into the earlier problem that you mentioned of just different, uh mental health issues being being reduced down to demonic influence or possession.

Speaker 1: 27:51

Yeah, I think I think what I'm getting out of this question is more so uh, not to not to uh that you have to share a ghost story or anything like that you know, because I, when it comes to this topic, even with my students, when I, when I'm talking about angelology and demonology, I tell them I'm not here to tell ghost stories, um, and I'm not here to like, tell you like little spooky things to get your, give you goosebumps Like I don't want to do that because, one, it it can create that obsession mindset and, two, it could give glory to the powers of darkness that I don't want to give. But I guess what I'm asking is in your, in your experience, do you believe you've, do you believe that you personally, or maybe there's someone in a coworker that has come across a situation where you're like, yeah, we're dealing with not just a person here, but a spiritual entity behind that?

Speaker 2: 28:46

Yeah, I'm thinking of one client. His was major delusion. He thought he was the president's son, nice Hunter Biden or someone else, and you know he affirmed to me that you know, I am his son and there's no denying it, right, but that wasn't. That wasn't demonic I'm trying to think of. Here's what I will share.

Speaker 2: 29:20

I have had client, had a client who felt like you feel a darkness as you're talking with him. It was just this, yeah, this blank stare and as you're engaging, as I was engaging with him, it just felt. I felt so consumed by like a sense of darkness. It was the weirdest thing and he himself had experienced a lot of trauma, but he wasn't, he was just quiet throughout our session and just kind of slowly responding, slowly engaging, but there was just a sense of darkness that I felt and I don't know how else to explain that. Um, and I have had some, uh, some co-workers share a little bit about that too just a feeling of darkness and overwhelmness in the overwhelming nature in the in the session. Um, but that's as far as my experience goes in regards to to that aspect of demonic activity or feelings.

Speaker 1: 30:14

Okay, okay, yeah, I can't say that I've experienced something where that it defies it, 100% defies a scientific explanation, let's say Now, that doesn't mean that I haven't experienced something. I want people to understand that I think as an apologist. A lot of times, when it comes to proving the supernatural stuff, I oftentimes my method is always asking can this be explained by other means?

Speaker 1: 30:46

first Not that those other means are the explanation, but could they be an explanation Because I'm interested in showing or proving elements of this, the evidence for Christianity, essentially. So when I think about this topic of demon possession and the supernatural and I would just, I would also throw in there just religious experiences, supernatural religious experiences I think about it in terms of what examples defy scientific explanation. Let's say I don't have any of those myself. I do have experiences in my past where I believe I did encounter something, but not to an extent where it's like ha-ha proof. You know 100%. I will say I do know. I have friends, some who are professional counselors, and then I've listened to other people who are professional counselors or they work in a psych ward and things like that, who have experienced things that basically defy a naturalistic explanation.

Speaker 1: 31:57

You know one in particular she was working with a client. There was multiple people in this room and she was working with this client and I don't know if she was a primary counselor or if she was just there for support. I don't really know the details of this one, but she said this girl was acting out and kind of being disturbing in some ways and she the counselor, she was kind of sitting or maybe the assistant. She was sitting off to the side, she wasn't saying anything, she was just there, she didn't even close her eyes, but she started praying silently in her mind. She didn't bow her head or kneel or anything like a Tim Tebow in the room or something like that. She just was praying silently in her mind and she said the girl stopped whatever she was doing, looked at her and said don't pray.

Speaker 1: 32:53

Don't pray like that or stop praying yeah so the girl knew she was praying, she kind of had that awareness of what was going on and so that that would be an example of like oh yeah well, that's unless the girl had a heightened sense of intuition.

Speaker 1: 33:11

That would be an example, and I've heard a very similar story to that of a guy this was actually on a YouTube interview I was listening to of a Christian man. He started off working in a psych ward and then, I think he got involved in some sort of deliverance ministry which I want to ask you about in just a minute. Got involved in some sort of deliverance ministry which I want to ask you about in just a minute. But he said his first encounter with this was he was in a psych ward and he was just in charge of watching this guy that was on suicide watch Again, the overlap of suicide so he just had to watch this guy all night long. And as he was sitting there watching this guy and the guy's sleeping, he felt great compassion for him and he just started praying for him silently in his mind Now the guy's sleeping, okay, and no one else is around and he said, as he started to pray, the guy started to like toss and turn on his bed, like violently, kind of like uncomfortable, like something's you know, pushing him. And then he said the guy sat up and then looked at him and said stop praying for him, he's ours.

Speaker 1: 34:23

And uh, the the christian psych ward workers said like he just froze, like he's like. I had no idea what to do in that moment. And it wasn't like he said, it wasn't like the this demon was trying to terrorize him. It was like don't do he's ours. Like don't, what are you doing? Stop that, you know.

Speaker 1: 34:45

And so he, he said he just like stood up and he, he got someone else to kind of like else to fill in for him. He went and made a phone call to his mom or something in the room. He said hey, I can't tell you what's going on, but just pray, just pray indescribably for this. There's a guy in this ward that needs a lot of prayers. So if you can get your people together and just start praying, they prayed for several hours, his mom and their friends.

Speaker 1: 35:11

He went back to this guy and kept praying for him and he's like I think I don't remember the conversation, but I think he said something like I think he said to the demon like you can't tell me not to pray, like I'm allowed to pray, Right, you know. And he said that by the end of the night, that guy, I think that the spirit essentially left the guy. I don't know, I don't remember how he described how that was, but essentially the guy was delivered in that way. So that's on YouTube. Doug Van Dorn has a podcast. It was on his podcast, but it was a really interesting story that the guy told.

Speaker 2: 35:50

You know, but that brings up a good point, though, tim too, is exposure to experiences like that. Like when someone shares those stories with me, like it's not like I question them, I'm like no, I don't think it was that, it's like I believe it.

Speaker 2: 36:02

It's just from my personal experience. But when I'm experiencing it it's like, okay, I have to make that distinction. But I know people in psych wards. I mean they have so many stories like that, yeah, and part of their job would be okay. This is. That was very distinct, right. This idea of these r's right. Yeah, this aspect of the demonic possession. So that seems pretty clear cut.

Speaker 2: 36:23

But in other instances where you see the id wouldn't show up that way yeah, the id would show up in a you know shift in the person's personality, in their you know facial expressions and showing almost an unawareness of the other personalities.

Speaker 1: 36:38

Usually am I wrong about yeah?

Speaker 2: 36:39

yeah, yeah. So it's whatever is needed at that time. So if the protector, that's what's going to come up. If it's more of a safety, the caring mother or whatever the case is, that's going to come up.

Speaker 1: 36:49

Um, but yeah, so I'm curious how those people work in the cycle, how they make those distinctions, because when you're exposed to it so much, yeah like your natural instinct is to well, this is my experience, so it's going to be in this realm um I think that I think, if you're a christian, I think this is where prayer does come in because, as I've heard, many people in the exorcist space doing exorcisms will say prayer. Prayer wounds demons. It wounds them. I don't know how that works, um, I won't pretend to know how that works, um, but jesus does say you know, like this, disciples come back to him a couple times. They can't cast out someone. In one instance he says this type does not come out except through prayer and fasting.

Speaker 1: 37:40

In the spiritual world, in the spiritual laws that God has put up, there's something I think if I can just spitball here and surmise something about prayer communicates our dependence on God, our allegiance to God. I think I said this in the previous episode the spiritual realm. This comes from Carlos Martins, who's a Catholic priest. I just like how he says this that the spiritual realm is very juridical in that it's legal. It's a place of combat, of legal claims, primarily, not that it can't manifest itself in physical things, and that makes sense if you read the scriptures.

Speaker 1: 38:29

There's the divine counsel of God in the courtroom, but then there's these spiritual laws and there's principalities and powers that can affect things in the world, but there are disputes that go on in the spiritual world Jude alludes to this with Satan disputing with Michael over the body of Moses. That's a really weird instance. We can't get into that but right now. But I think, like prayer is one of these things, things that shows our reliance on the Lord, and it wounds a demon, at least if we were to think about it in those kind of human terms Not that they have bodies or anything, but that seems to be so. I think prayer is one of those things that can elicit the supernatural, as opposed to just concluding oh DID is demonic possession.

Speaker 2: 39:21

Yeah, and.

Speaker 2: 39:22

I did want to add this aspect because I know one of the one of the questions that you had mentioned are things that make this, uh, the reality of the spiritual realm, kind of. What are some examples of that? And actually one of the things that I was looking at, this one was interesting about a young woman in montana who was suffering from the effects of demonization. In all three incidents she divulged the name of a young man involved, so that she had committed fornication three times and each time an evil spirit had entered her, she named the name or named the young man, renounced the evil spirit of fornication from said name and then she was delivered. So it was this interesting aspect of again, if a person is within that worldview, then they're going to see those experiences as demonic. Now, this was in montana and I think you correct me if I'm wrong I think montana kind of has like a liberal lean towards it. I don't know what the lifestyle is like there in regards to you mean like um like in terms of religious in terms of religion.

Speaker 2: 40:28

Oh yeah, like there's very, yeah, it's syncretistic.

Speaker 1: 40:32

Uh, there's this, of course, evangelicals out there with a lot of mormons. There's native american religion, new age religion.

Speaker 2: 40:38

So, yeah, the western united states is a hotbed of, yeah, occultism and new age religion so so all of those things that they kind of add to this um another more recent one is kind of the idea of stones and their energy oh crystals crystal.

Speaker 2: 40:52

Yeah, yeah, um. So you have the crystals parts like okay, well, there's this energy, like here's the energy of you know, um, gosh, what's one that I was thinking about? This one's likeism, like this one, will make you really smart, and then there's this one over here. So, all of those things that people are dabbling with that's going to inform all these different, does that provide an opening for demand?

Speaker 2: 41:12

I would say it does Right and that's so that would be part of the assessment is that if someone comes in and I know they're using crystals and they have a strong belief in those crystals, then in my mind I'm seeing okay, that's an opening for demonic possession.

Speaker 1: 41:28

Are they displaying any?

Speaker 2: 41:28

symptoms of that. I don't know if any of these things are directly connected to like DID or schizophrenia or anything like that, but again, because crystal is kind of like this doorway into a spiritual realm, because crystal is kind of this doorway into a spiritual realm, I would be very much aware of that for demonic possession, if that was a case, yeah, you know, and some to something I mentioned earlier.

Speaker 1: 41:50

There there seems to be many times an overlay where, if you have a mental health disorder is going, going showing, presenting, there's a there could be an overlay with a demonic entity that is hiding within those, if not causing them, hiding in them. Why would I say hiding? Why would they do that? Well, if you track with the last two episodes that we talked about, there's good incentive for, let's say, these spiritual entities to hide, to conceal themselves within people. We often think about the. If you watch Hollywood, it's like you get all kinds of presentations of the supernatural realm, the evil side. Let's say you have some superhuman guy that gets to be president of the United States and he's he's demon possessed. Or there's a movie called fallen with denzel washington. It's a decent movie, but it's about this angel, fallen angel named azazel, which is actually, uh, the name of a demon in the bible um but uh, yeah, this guy can just jump from body to body at will, you know, possessing whoever he wants, and he's.

Speaker 1: 43:05

I forget the plot of the movie, but he's trying to accomplish something. And Denzel Washington is this cop that's on the beat investigating this thing, it's so comical to think about it. Like you know, this cop is going to investigate. You know this ancient super intelligence, non-embodied thing, you know, um, anyway. So but then you get examples of, like the exorcist and all the gross or paranormal activity and things like that, these horror movies that are out just way out there.

Speaker 2: 43:35

You know, not out there in the sense of not true, but like intended to scare people right, and I think I think that that speaks to again this part of mass hysteria can also explain this. There was an article I was reading about. That I was talking about Do you mind if I jump in?

Speaker 1: 43:52

Yeah, go ahead, Let me just finish this point really quick that, at least in my studies and again, I don't want to present myself as an expert, that's like an exorcist or something but in listening to accounts of reputable Christians, either Roman Catholic or Protestant or Eastern Orthodox I've listened to all of them and I read a lot on this subject there seems to be this common trait of the powers of darkness, evil spiritual entities demons do want to hide. They don't want to be discovered, they want to destroy. Some of them want actually to kill people, they want to destroy people, but some of them want to hide inside them because it gives them a place to live and an abode to influence and possess people. Now we can get into theories about why. That is what the nature of demons are. That gets into like, are they fallen angels or are they disembodied Nephilim?

Speaker 1: 44:47

We can get into that subject. We can do episodes, yeah, but there's debates about that. But essentially there seems to be this agreement among Christians in this space that the demons who are influencing people don't want to be, this agreement among people in this space, christians in this space, that the demons who are influencing people don't want to be found out and so it makes sense for them to hide. On this overlay of mental health issues. That's all I'll say on it is that it?

Speaker 1: 45:13

makes sense that they would hide.

Speaker 2: 45:15

Oh yeah, I mean, I guess even in Scripture, when they were being, I guess, discovered, or when they were being addressed by Jesus, I mean they were like, did you say?

Speaker 1: 45:27

they were like shocked everyone and he's cutting himself and he lives among the tombs and things like that. But the story goes that when jesus, he steps out onto the shore and and the, this gentile controlled territory, um, this guy you know, sees him, and there's some debate about whether the guy himself or the demons bring, bring the guy to jesus. I think the guy maybe had some awareness like this jesus. Anyway, the guy finds himself face to face with j and then the demons are shrieking and saying, like what do you have to do with us, son of man? Like, are you here to throw us in the pit before? Are you here to judge us before the time? And so they're asking like what are you doing here? Don't torment us.

Speaker 1: 46:19

So, they're really worried that he's going to cast them out. And then they, they beg him well, if you're going to cast us out of this guy, cast us into the pigs, put us into the pigs. Why that's such a strange request to us? That is such a strange request, um, but so there's. There's seems to be this desire to embody things and hide in them in some way. But the fortune teller that Paul and Silas encounter I think it's in Lystra I can't remember the city right now. I think it's Lystra where they encounter this she's a fortune teller, she makes a lot of money for the men of the city and she follows Paul and silas around and then, uh, at some point paul gets really annoyed and he just turns around and casts the spirit out of her, because the spirit gave her supernatural power to know the future and other things. And he just casts out the spirit from her and then there goes their money making scheme right right you know, and so the men in the city are really mad.

Speaker 1: 47:21

So, yeah, that would be an example where, like you know, those are examples of, like, supernatural power and presentation. But Satan hid inside Ananias, yeah, or at least he filled his thoughts. Let's say so. Peter's like Ananias. Why has Satan filled your thoughts? Ananias unfiltered thoughts and I was not aware of that, at least with that, but that we know of. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, okay, so that was a long answer. No, no, um, let me let me. Uh.

Speaker 2: 47:48

Oh, so you were going to say something and yeah, I was just going to talk about the, the idea of mass hysteria, um, and how that influenced um, some demonic possession. It's uh, I think this was in malaysia in the 1970s. There was the cases of demonic possession which coincidentally happened or spiked in. The us found the release of the movie the exorcist in 1973 I would believe it, so that would make a lot of sense.

Speaker 2: 48:14

So if you're having that exposure to something that's, so you know, real for some people in a different part of the of the world, um, yeah, I mean that would, that would make a lot of sense. So the belief that there is this world, it's that whole idea of if you've never been exposed to it, the more you see it, the more you start to believe. Right, and that movie really brought that up and I think for me as a counselor is, I bet you if I would to see it more, if I were to work in a psych ward, I mean this would feel much more real to me you know, yeah, so I'm not denying that it's not.

Speaker 2: 48:44

I'm not saying that it's not real.

Speaker 1: 48:45

I'm saying I would feel it much more real yeah, you'd be much more aware, much more aware, yeah and maybe obviously more, more insight even into it.

Speaker 2: 48:53

What's?

Speaker 1: 48:53

kind of like if you're, if you're, you know. The classic example of someone who's like walking. They don't realize they're walking close to the edge of a cliff until they know like they look around and then they're terrified, yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:04

Yeah, something like that. So let me ask you this You've mentioned deliverance ministries, you know, and as we're as we've been talking, so just as we're getting close to the end here can you explain what deliverance ministries are and what are some pros and cons of those ministries, and maybe some methodological problems, but maybe some positives as well? Can you kind of just give a—we'll do a series on deliverance ministry down the road, but just give us a brief kind of synopsis of what they are pros and cons, things like that.

Speaker 2: 49:38

Yeah, I think I'm going to reference this book from Charles Craft. It's called Getting Information, or the topic he was dedicating to was getting information from demons, and he talks about this emphasis on commanding evil spirits in the name of Jesus to do these three things. In the name of Jesus, to do these three things Reveal who they are when they enter the person and why they have a right to be in the person. So this whole aspect of deliverance is seeking out that evil spirit or seeking out that demon, having it declare its name and then casting it out. But that's essentially how they report it. And, gosh, I wish I would have gone to one of them. I know a couple of students went to a deliverance session a couple of times and they talked about here's what they did. So they basically sat down with the client and I think they started to pray over the client. Then they said, ok, demon, name yourself. And then they would say pride, or they would say lust, or they would say anger. They would say lust or they would say anger, something like that, and then they would start questioning the anger. Why is it there, you know, why are you inhabiting this person?

Speaker 2: 50:49

This whole aspect of just kind of questioning um and craft charles craft here in in in this article he starts to point out a couple of things of how to get information from these evil spirits in the process of setting people free, and he says six reasons why it's helpful to get information from these evil spirits. So here's what he's saying. Much information can be obtained, like they use against the demons. So part of asking that anger, and again very similar to counseling, right, this idea of, okay, you know what's going on in your life, okay, how can we counter those negative thoughts, those negative beliefs and so on. In this case he says it can be used against the demon. So I don't know what information they're exactly looking for, but there's a reason why the anger is there, there's a reason why the lust is there, there's a reason why maybe the pride is there, and so on. So that would make sense, right?

Speaker 2: 51:40

The information we see can speed up inner healing and lead to quicker deliverance. For example, if a demon reveals when and why they are in a person, that helps the deliverance minister get to the root cause quicker. Again, very similar to counseling. Inner healing of the person requires more information than just knowing that a demon is present. Forcing evil spirits to give information weakens them, making it easier to force them to leave their victim. So that one's really interesting too right, because the more information you have, the more you, the more um tools you have or weapons you have to fight against it.

Speaker 2: 52:15

When the victim, when the victim hears the demons confess their lies and how they have trapped the person, it gives it, gives the person confidence that freedom is possible. So this is going to speak to I think I told you a little over text. We're talking about like um different books. One was called the bondage breaker and the bondage breaker focuses a lot on the lies that the devil uses to get you to believe. You know about your depression, about your anxiety and so on. So it's kind of like there's the CBT approach here to questioning the demon that's in the person. And lastly again this is on six reasons why it's helpful to get this information when the victim learns to recognize the demon's voice during the deliverance session, it makes it easier for the person to recognize that same voice if the demon comes back later. So very interesting. And these sessions so I've heard Tim, some of these sessions can go up to like three hours.

Speaker 2: 53:04

So, it's one session, three hours, dealing with one particular demon. Sometimes it comes out differently. I think Dr Fisher one time that he got violent and started swinging and doing all these different things and you're just like, whoa, how do I deal with this? So, again, just trying to get the person to regulate again. But those are six reasons why they would ask for that information. But Kraft also mentioned six cautions and he says don't trust what demons say without cross-checking.

Speaker 2: 53:36

So, similar to counseling when we're asking questions to a client, we're checking to see if their story makes sense. Okay, well, you said. You said that you've been trying to work in this area, but over here you kind of still keep, uh, repeating same pattern. You still let your you know friend cross these boundaries. Tell me, how are you making sense of that? So it seems that the same approach is taken with these demons, right? Uh, since evil spirits are lying spirits and that's a big part of this right Spirits are going to be lying, it is important to command them, in the name of Jesus, to tell the truth. Demons are deceitful. Often they tell half-truths in order to mislead. We talked a little bit about that in a previous episode. Never let demons take control of a deliverance session. What would that look like? I'm not sure, honestly.

Speaker 2: 54:23

I think one of it is just when they start going crazy in regards to violence, explosive cussing I know that's a big part of it too, because they don't want to be removed.

Speaker 2: 54:38

One of the most common tactics demons use is to bluff and intimidate in order to keep control of the victims, and there's no magic formula that guarantees that you can get the information you want. So craft suggests that each practitioner experience to find his or her best way, and here was some of I don't know if it's frustration, because that just my minimal exposure to it, but, like counseling, everyone has a different approach and everyone has kind of like their own orientation and how they're going to approach it differently. So even when it comes to deliverance, people are going to do it differently. Some people might address it right away, some people might actually lay hands on the person, some people might use a lot of prayer. So there's a lot of different ways in which people do deliverance. So I'm just sharing just one aspect, and craft shows this other aspect of what to be careful for, why it's good to question the demons. So it could look different for a lot of different counselors who do engage in addressing these demons.

Speaker 1: 55:33

That's a good answer.

Speaker 2: 55:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 55:36

So that's a good snapshot of what deliverance ministry is. Deliverance ministry is. Now. I think when we do our series we'll dive into some some, I think, healthy forms of that and then some maybe some very unhealthy forms of that that I've I've heard you know, uh, not not heard of, but I've I've heard the leaders of those ministries describing what they do and I'm like they're, I'm like I'm just scratching my head like we're pulling my hair out, saying like what, what you know?

Speaker 1: 56:00

yeah trying to interview, trying to interview the demons and find out secret conspiracies and all this. I'm like what anyway?

Speaker 2: 56:07

and we'll get into that and and there's a lot of ethical concerns here too tim like for for someone, if someone's a lpc and someone has been in the field. I mean again, this is this has been my point throughout the the episode is that I I don't feel prepared enough to engage or do any type of deliverance. Now I can sit in on someone who knows how to do it and try to learn, but if you as a listener are thinking about this or want to get more information on this, I know people who do it. You can email them and see if they'll let you kind of sit in on those things. And again, there's a lot of issues along with that.

Speaker 2: 56:45

So I do worry from a professional standpoint for those who do do deliverance work, that they do so as a ministry, not necessarily as a you know practicing counselor, because that's going to require some levels of training and certifications to be able to do that. So I would caution that if you are looking into that, that you make sure that it's just ministry-based. Like I said, I think part of my preparation for this was learning that it's much more spiritual than it is a professional practice than it is a professional practice. It seems that churches kind of create these ministries to help people who have been involved in spiritual warfare like this, where there's demon possession. But I haven't seen as much of it in counseling, other than the experience that people have had where they see these things happen. But I don't see people treating it, treating that demon possession. They just share their experience. Here's what I saw and here's how I felt that experience.

Speaker 1: 57:45

All right. Last question Any resources you would recommend to our listeners.

Speaker 2: 57:50

My resource is Tim what. Here's why. Again going back to the idea, Source I made it up. No, I did not prepare any resources because I didn't read anything about this.

Speaker 1: 58:07

Makes sense.

Speaker 2: 58:08

So for me it was more so about. Okay, if you want to explore that realm, there's the books that we've been talking about, which it's only a demon.

Speaker 1: 58:16

Ask him.

Speaker 2: 58:17

Ask him for those book resources because I just don't dabble in that field, even though I'm aware of it. So hopefully you guys understand, kind of where I'm coming from. Makes sense.

Speaker 1: 58:29

And there's other resources that I do want to recommend eventually, but I'm not done reading them, and so I don't want to recommend books that I haven't read unless I trust the author and I know a little bit about what the book is about. But there's some books that I'm actually reading right now that I'll probably recommend down the road, but I kind of want to work through them myself first.

Speaker 2: 58:48

Yeah, and you could like. I mean, one of the things that I was reading through a lot was just a lot of different experiences, because I'm just trying to piece together. Do these experiences make sense? How would they make the distinct distinction between a psychological disorder and whether or not it was demon possession? So, again, what I found was that it's going to depend on what their worldview is. If they land more on this side with demon possession, then they're going to look at it from that perspective. If they're more clinical, they're going to be able to distinguish. This is the socio-identity disorder. Schizophrenia, you know, suicidal ideation, whatever the case is. But yeah, someone, the person has to have some sort of spiritual background.

Speaker 1: 59:24

Here's some resources I would not recommend to people Hollywood movies, shows, anything that is intended to scare you, entertain you with horror, present you with some sort of curious fascination with darkness anything like that. Board games like the Ouija board, anything like that. Stay away from it.

Speaker 2: 59:49

Yeah, like people who love horror movies, like are they more vulnerable to this as well?

Speaker 1: 59:56

Yeah, I mean so.

Speaker 2: 59:59

Sorry, I mean to throw a last question. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:00:03

I think that. I think that there's there. There can there can reach a level where someone is is so fascinated with darkness and death and other things that it can open a door.

Speaker 1: 1:00:17

I don't know if I wouldn't say that that's like a science, that that happens all the time. But I would say that that certainly, if that, if it is a, if there are doorways, that certainly could be one. That's my opinion. Ok, but yeah, I would say, you know, movie like the Exorcist, any of the Exorcist movies, paranormal Activity, anything like that Like. I've seen some of those movies and I think if I watched them now I probably would see them under a different light than when I was younger. When I was younger they were, they were terrifying, you know, except for like the old exorcist movie that never really scared me but the movie.

Speaker 2: 1:00:55

How old were you when you said I was a teenager?

Speaker 1: 1:00:57

I thought it was silly, but but like horror movies, like mich Myers, oh man, they terrified me, the real ones, like Freddy Krueger for me.

Speaker 2: 1:01:04

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:07

Or the movie the Exorcism of Emily Rose. That's one of the scariest movies I've ever seen.

Speaker 2: 1:01:12

Really yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:13

So those kind of movies I think about I don't want to watch them, but I think about them now I'm like those were intended to scare me and to entertain other people. Them now. I'm like those were intended to scare me and to entertain other people and it's like I I don't. I just don't open yourself up to those things and also don't base your theology on those things. That's what people do all the time. I see that all the time people base their theology of angels and demons on shows and movies rather than on the scriptures yeah, it's good, and I don't do that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:40

So read the books we recommended in the previous episodes. Um and uh, start there. Yeah, okay, we'll do. I think we're gonna do one more episode on this subject and that's just like a q, a kind of episode so stay tuned, folks, all right.