Psych and Theo Podcast
Ep. 22 - Is Everyone Really a Narcissist?
Explore with us the diverse manifestations of NPD, from the overtly grandiose to the more subtle, understated expressions of narcissism. We dive into the critical role relationships play in identifying these traits and the ongoing debate of nature versus nurture in the development of NPD. Is narcissism inherited, or is it a product of one's environment? We discuss these questions in depth, offering a balanced perspective on how both genetic and environmental factors contribute to this personality disorder.
We also shine a light on the dangers of narcissism in church leadership and society at large. Using biblical examples and historical figures like Napoleon and Louis XIV, we illustrate the wide-ranging impact of narcissistic leaders. From emotional and spiritual abuse in congregations to the grandiose self-perceptions of modern-day leaders, our conversation underscores the necessity for discernment and wisdom in appointing those in positions of power. Finally, we offer practical strategies for recognizing narcissistic behavior in relationships and setting boundaries to protect oneself from the emotional toll of dealing with a narcissist. Don't miss this enriching discussion packed with insights and real-life examples.
Explore with us the diverse manifestations of NPD, from the overtly grandiose to the more subtle, understated expressions of narcissism. We dive into the critical role relationships play in identifying these traits and the ongoing debate of nature versus nurture in the development of NPD. Is narcissism inherited, or is it a product of one's environment? We discuss these questions in depth, offering a balanced perspective on how both genetic and environmental factors contribute to this personality disorder.
We also shine a light on the dangers of narcissism in church leadership and society at large. Using biblical examples and historical figures like Napoleon and Louis XIV, we illustrate the wide-ranging impact of narcissistic leaders. From emotional and spiritual abuse in congregations to the grandiose self-perceptions of modern-day leaders, our conversation underscores the necessity for discernment and wisdom in appointing those in positions of power. Finally, we offer practical strategies for recognizing narcissistic behavior in relationships and setting boundaries to protect oneself from the emotional toll of dealing with a narcissist. Don't miss this enriching discussion packed with insights and real-life examples.
All right, all right, everyone. Welcome back to the Psych and Theology podcast. Sam and Tim here we are just excited to be able to talk about a topic that is often discussed in social situations. Mostly in relationships is when I've been hearing it often, but we also have heard about it in the church, we've heard about it in workplaces and, again, like I said, in relationships. So hopefully this is a relatable topic in the sense of your encounters with it and hopefully we can clarify what narcissism is and how it impacts our lives. So hopefully we could get some clarity on that. Again, just as a reminder, as we are nearing the end of our first season, if you could just leave a review, leave a rating, and again, that helps the podcast and we just always welcome your thoughts and suggestions and thank you for doing that. So yeah, tim, we're talking about, uh, narcissism today and trying to clarify what that means yeah, so this is an episode where I get to interview you mostly, yeah yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1:It's a big topic I like.
Speaker 2:I like how we switch back and forth sometimes, or you get to ask me questions, I'll ask you questions, so it kind of gives us a break. You know, it's like you have to do some heavy lifting one episode and then it's funny, because when you when we are doing the interview for the other person it feels like you're not doing anything.
Speaker 1:But actually when you ask the follow-up questions or anything like that, like it really adds a different dynamics of conversation, so I'm excited yeah, we're two geniuses, basically, we're just so good at this.
Speaker 2:We're soaking it in. Okay, okay, all right, so, okay. So this topic is narcissism. It gets talked about a lot, the word gets thrown out a lot, probably too much these days. But let's set the context of the book, let's say some relevancy. Why are we talking about this topic of narcissism? Why should people care about the issue, sam? Why should we care?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know, it's almost like I was thinking about this earlier today and we talked about this even on our episode on the different types of men, right, the alpha and beta and everything else. But for some reason, right, we people, we like labels, we like having categories, which is natural, right, it comes natural to all of us and I think the way that we make sense of our lives is by placing people in certain categories, and, whether because it makes us feel better or because it helps us have a better understanding of things, people have started to do this with this aspect of narcissism. Right, there's a lot of behaviors and traits that define narcissism or that characteristic of narcissism. But I've often now have heard people call their partners or people at work or people at you know their church, you know, oh, they're, they have narcissistic personality disorder, you know they have npd and you know what are they doing here and what does this actually look like. But when we look at the, the, the research or the data on is like there's not a large population that would be that would meet the criteria diagnostically for narcissistic personality disorder. I mean, one of the bigger numbers that I saw was like 5%, 5.5, something like that, and then the average that would be national, for for here the U? S is like 1.2. And that seems to make sense for the actual diagnosis for narcissistic personality disorder and the criteria that is used.
Speaker 1:And why it's become such a big topic is because when people talk about their relationships, it's easy to identify a lot of these characteristics that are associated to narcissism, to NPD, but that doesn't mean that the person has narcissistic personality disorder, right? So what are some of those characteristics, right? So some of the behaviors are manipulative tendencies, difficulty handling criticism, fragile self-esteem like you can't, I mean that ties into the self-criticism. And then some other more obvious ones, like this grandiosity, a view of themselves, grandiose view of themselves. They need constant admiration. They have no empathy for people. They're entitled, you know, and they just feel like they deserve all the glory and all the power and everything. So all of those things are true and evidence of someone who would be narcissistic, right? But again, the criteria, the actual criteria is we look at the DSM for narcissistic personality disorder. I'm going to read through some of those here so we have a better understanding of that, because not everyone in your life is a narcissist, right, and people typically what you'll find is the latest conversations on narcissism is if someone treats you a certain way, or if there's, you know, very boisterous and proud and and loud, and you know um high praise of themselves, like, oh, we naturally want to um, uh, define them as narcissistic. But it's also important to understand that all of us have like little hints of it as well, because it's a way to function in life, to do things well right, like if you don't believe in your abilities and capabilities to do a certain job or to function in society, then what does that look like? What does that actually mean if you are not able to see yourself in a positive light? But let's get here to the actual criteria for NPD, and I'm just going to refer to it like that, just to short it up, as obviously so. Here's how it's listed in the DSM A pervasive pattern of grandiosity in fantasy or behavior.
Speaker 1:There's a need for admiration, lack of empathy, and usually begins in early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts, but it has to be indicated by five or more of the following. So typically what I'll see with people is that they'll find two or three things and, because it's so evident, they will naturally describe someone or define someone as NPD. You know that they have the disorder. Someone as NPD, you know that they have the disorder, so they have to have five or more of these following characteristics. Number one has a grandiose sense of self-importance. So typically someone's going to exaggerate their achievements. They're going to exaggerate their talents. They expect to be recognized as superior without any type of achievements. That's just. This is who I am and I should be praised because of who I am. Right. Sometimes that's associated to the family name or things like that Is preoccupied.
Speaker 1:Number two is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love. Believes that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by other special people or high status people or even institutions. Number four requires excessive admiration, so it's almost like they demanded of other people. Has a sense of entitlement. They have unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with their expectations. Number six is interpersonally exploitative, so it takes advantage of others, and we do see that a lot. Number seven lacks empathy, unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. Number eight is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her and, lastly, shows arrogance, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
Speaker 1:So those were nine, right? So for someone to meet the characteristics of NPD, they have to have at least five, okay, so they'd be noticeable and it'd be for a consistent period of time. You know, it's defined as part of their personality. Some people are just naturally inclined to be more like this. But again, there's background experiences, there's life experiences, there's upbringing, culture, a lot of things that can can introduce a lot of these different characteristics. Okay, so any questions on that?
Speaker 2:yeah, so um, why? So getting back to our first question, you know why are people talking about it so much? Are they just look? Are they just seeing behaviors? Is it just become the newest label to throw on people?
Speaker 1:I mean, that's, that's exactly where I was going to go with it. It it's the you know before you would have people describe you know I have ADHD. You know that was a big thing and again, I'm not downplaying for people who have it. Then borderline bipolar my girlfriend, she's so bipolar. And now my boyfriend, he's so narcissistic or he's psychotic.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, these are the the labels, right? Yeah, and npd is kind of just that new one. It's a new kid on the block, like everyone's a narcissist, you know.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, okay so I do want to. I want to ask you about that later. You know, um, just the, the idea of like everyone's a narcissist, um, so let's get into this. You mentioned that there was like nine traits and in order for someone to be considered a narcissist, would you say like clinical narcissism?
Speaker 2:Clinical narcissism Clinical narcissism, they'd have to meet five of those criteria, I guess so. So if someone were to observe one or two of those behaviors in a person, that doesn't mean that they're a narcissist right Necessarily If they see one or two behaviors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they observe one or two of those kind of behaviors.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they wouldn't be considered a narcissist. Again, all of us exhibit some form of narcissistic behavior at one point or another. So you want something that's across a good span of time, so three months to six months I mean that's not clarified here, but it's enough information or enough span of time where you see this consistent behaviors of grandiosity, of preoccupation with power and so on. So yeah, so you want to see that.
Speaker 2:Okay, so let's hang on to that lengthy period of time for a minute. Let me ask you this are there different types of npd narcissistic personality disorder are there different types of it or is it mainly that one type with like different uh character traits?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, I mean, out of all those, it could be a mixture of them, right? Some people again are going to be more inclined to be more vocal about their achievements because there could be people who are not as vocal. And typically we find that those who are narcissistic are very vocal, very aggressive, very loud mouth and so on. So they'll have those traits. But maybe the question is what, if a person is not that vocal, can they still have these feelings? That's where it gets a little bit tricky, because they could have a grandiose sense of self-importance, right, so they could exaggerate their achievements. And it's funny how it's expressed with different personalities. Someone can exaggerate their achievements and talents and not be boisterous about it, not be haughty about it. It's just like, oh yeah, I mean I used to work with so-and-so, and oh yeah, oh yeah, I know that person. Oh, this is this and that. And yeah, I achieved this, this and here over there and I got this reward over here. So they're not boisterous about it, but they're still kind of exaggerating their level of self-importance in a sense. Or maybe they talk about how they want to be, you know, want to be in a high position one day, and and as you hear them talk about that. They'll talk about how they use people, you know. They start saying you know, oh, yeah, you know I was able to get this position because you know I bought this guy out for for that position. I have better credentials, you know. So they start everything kind of ties in to their lifestyle, to how they do life and how they relate to people.
Speaker 1:Most personality disorders are mostly evident in their relationships with other people, right? So that's really where you want to explore what do your relationships with other people look like? And how do I, as a counselor, experience this person in session? I had a worship. He wanted to be a worship pastor and I remember we were talking about it and he said I just want to be on stage and bringing glory to God. And you know. So that's why I've studied all of these different instruments, so I can be of most use to God. And you know, I just want people to think when they admire me, I want them to see Jesus in me, right?
Speaker 2:So you kind of see these little right.
Speaker 1:It's these little comments like that. You're like okay, okay, and you start to see this need for admiration, so they want to be at the front right. And then he started talking about. He's like but I need to get closer to this person over here, because they're really the ones who are in charge of hiring the worship pastors and the worship leaders and so on. So I'm trying to be friends with them and so you see all of these different things and then you start saying, okay, that's one aspect. Do they do that in their other relationships? So you start exploring his other relationships and if you see the same pattern, then you start okay, he's meeting these criteria for NPD.
Speaker 2:But would you say so? It sounds like there's one type, they just manifest differently. There's not like different types, like clinical definitions, right? No?
Speaker 1:no, yeah, that's right. I mean, that was your original question. Yeah, so it's expressed in all these different ways and some people would just be more inclined to one or the other yeah, okay, okay, all right.
Speaker 2:so, um, then let me ask you this, because you said you look for these observed patterns over a period of time, maybe three to six months at least is narcissism or NPD, let's say, is that purely genetic? So let me be precise here NPD, narcissistic personality disorder not necessarily narcissistic behavior like any of us could exhibit, but narcissistic personality disorder is that genetic? Are people born with it, or can that be learned and cultivated in a person who otherwise would not be predisposed to that?
Speaker 1:or is it just something you're? Born with it's both you know it's. It's some people have, I'm sorry, are you saying it could be both.
Speaker 1:It's both yeah it's nature nurture, right? Nature could be, obviously, if their father or their mother had kind of this narcissistic traits, they're going to carry on those traits as well. The question is, what does the setting look like? Why does someone need to become narcissistic, right? How does someone develop that? So for someone who is constantly consistently put down, consistently degraded or just not on how their achievements make them who they are.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of like this way of functioning in the world. They're given their own self-esteem by behaving in these ways that reinforce those beliefs. Right, if I behave like I'm successful and if I achieve all of these different things and if I meet all the right people, that makes them feel good about themselves. So they continue to act in ways that reinforce those beliefs. So for some it's a way to cope with that pain, right. But if they don't have those traits, I mean if they're born with those traits, it just makes it easier for some more than others. And, again, not everyone's going to be loud, loud and proud about it. There are some people who are more quiet, that do display these symptoms and they kind of mask it with this sense of you know. It's kind of like a humble praise, self praise type of thing. So I mean that that that worship leader is the one who kind of came to mind he was kind of doing that throughout our our sessions, so had observed that for quite some time.
Speaker 2:So someone could develop the personality disorder itself. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's a smaller pool because you have to have the traits there to really see it the way that we see it, with all these different characteristics, yeah, but, um, but again, if, but again, if they need to cope with certain pains, you can develop it, because it's yeah, you just learn the behaviors. And again, we talked about this in a previous episode If your behavior is being rewarded, you're going to keep doing it right. So if you see, by praising yourself and demanding it from other people and people are kind of responding to that, like that reinforces that behavior. So with time you can develop the disorder. But again, we're still talking about such a very small pool, right To actually be NPD. I mean, it's 1.2%, something like that very small in the US. So what about? If we talk about narcissistic traits, then we have a much broader pool and that's where we can Well, that is kind of a dovetail question narcissistic traits then we have a much broader pool and that's where we can well that.
Speaker 2:This is kind of a dovetail question. You said 1.2 in the us. Is it higher in other parts of the world?
Speaker 1:no, I just. That's the only numbers I looked up. I said, you know, what does? Mpd look like in the us population. Uh, how often is it diagnosed? Interesting because peterson.
Speaker 2:Peterson says it's about three percent, or says it's typically, like typically, or it shouldn't rise above three percent. If it rises above three percent, then society's in trouble.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, I mean, it really is, because I mean, how can you see yourself in that type of setting with so many people? That would be narcissistic, you know this goes back to one alpha. Yeah, three out of 100 or one out of 33 people is a narcissist yeah, yeah it's a lot of narcissists running around, yeah yeah, I mean it goes back to our alpha beta conversation too. It's the same thing. Like you can't have a society built on that, you have to learn how to function and work with other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, so yeah, the, the, the percentage is small well, let me ask you this, then I have has the mental health profession seen, uh, an increase, an mpd, or uh or a decrease? Like has it always been one around 1.2 percent? Like has it flowed up and down like?
Speaker 1:it's gone up throughout the last couple of years. I forget what was the earliest um uh year that I saw. I think it was 2002 where it was. I mean, it was basically zero, oh really Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because you would. I mean, you would just see it as, I guess, what we would describe today as someone who has high self-confidence, right Again, what the DSM looks at is how does this affect a person's relationships? And that's where they start to define okay, how does it work out? How does it affect their work, personal relationships, spiritual lives, so on. So, and again, because we have social media, because we have people talking about it, like there's just this exposure to it more often and now people want to label everything as narcissistic right.
Speaker 1:So social media has really changed how we talk about mental health. Like you know, we we started one where we said we're not tiktokers here, just saying here's, here's what mpd looks like. Right, we have studied, we're in the field and we're seeing it, but is it because we're creating a culture of that right are? We creating a culture of narcissists with social media well then, let me ask you this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I see a lot of posts on social media, either of people saying they're identifying other narcissists or people who they do things that are prideful and arrogant, and then others are commenting on the video saying, oh, she's a narcissist, he's a narcissist, he's a narcissist. So it's people who are exhibiting Narcissistic behavior Maybe, but aren't necessarily Suffering from NPD, right, right.
Speaker 1:And that's how I would say that.
Speaker 2:Well, let me ask you this then, because this gets into a couple things. I'm going to ask you the differences Between narcissism and two other things. First is what's the difference Between narcissism and just plain old selfishness, like if someone's like? How do we determine between like, oh, that person's being selfish or they're a narcissist?
Speaker 1:well, I think it's going to come down to how the person defines selfishness and narcissism. So we're going to use our term for narcissism as a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration and lack of empathy. Empathy, let's say, those are the big three characteristics of MPD, right? Grandiosity, need for admiration, lack of empathy right. So excluding those three. And if the person is just only thinking about themselves, okay, that's a selfish person. They're not thinking about how their actions are affecting other people, but that doesn't mean that they lack empathy. They they're not thinking about how their actions are affecting other people, but that doesn't mean that they lack empathy, they're just only thinking about themselves. Let's say they're thinking about themselves and they have these aspects of grandiosity and they have this need for admiration and they lack empathy. Then we're like, okay, yeah, that's narcissistic, Not just behavior, but leaning towards NPD.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my thinking on this is that a selfish person can just they act in their own self-interest, sometimes at the cost of others, to the detriment of others, but that doesn't mean that they're obsessed with grandiose admiration and things like that. They could be a coward and be acting in their own self-interest, abandoning their troops on the battlefield. That doesn't mean they're a narcissist. They could be a coward and be acting in their own self-interest, abandoning their troops on the battlefield. You know. That doesn't mean they're narcissists, they're just a coward, you know, yeah. So, yeah, okay, what about this? And this gets to the social media aspect, I think neuroticism, what is the difference between neuroticism.
Speaker 2:What is the difference between narcissism and neuroticism? Can you help us understand what neuroticism is first of all? And maybe if there's people who are maybe seeing neurotic behavior and thinking, oh, that's narcissistic behavior, they're misidentifying something here. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Neuroticism basically just has to deal with how a person handles stress, that a person is more prone to anxiety than someone else. When we say that someone is neurotic, we're saying they have more of a tendency to become anxious. They could be overthinking everything. That could be neurotic type of behavior. Everything is a problem, everything is affecting me, right. So that, compared to narcissism, it could just be that they're thinking about themselves consistently, but it wouldn't be necessarily neurotic behavior that we would describe it, as there are two kind of separate camps Neuroticism one's ability to cope with stress, more prone to anxiety, and narcissism, obviously this aspect of grandiosity, admiration, no empathy and so on.
Speaker 2:Okay, the reason I asked that question is because we live. So Jonathan Haidt has written a book called I think it's called the Anxious Generation, I think is the title of the book. I need to get it and read it. But Jonathan Haidt is a really important researcher on young people and just the anxiety that has gripped them. He also wrote a book called I think it's called the Cobbling of the American Mind, which is basically the problem of students having safe spaces on campus and not being challenged, and having helicopter and parents to take care of their every need so they never have to be stressed or anything like that.
Speaker 2:And so I see on social media like people acting out because of anxiety or stress, I mean everything. Like there's all kinds of people saying, oh, I have trauma for this, I have trauma for that, I have anxiety for this, I have anxiety for that. And then their critics are saying you're just a narcissist. But it seems like maybe they're. They're suffering from neuroticism more than narcissism. Yeah, I'm thinking of like the, the stereotypical, like social justice warrior, like the left, the lefties that melt down on social media all the time and they get made fun of Like I'm thinking of like that stereotype.
Speaker 1:Yeah, on social media all the time and they get made fun of like I'm thinking of like that stereotype. Yeah, well, I don't know if you remember like this was happening I mean, it's still happening now but people would go on social media and they'd share, like, their most vulnerable moments, yeah, and you know they have this community around them. And one of the things I was thinking to myself I'm like, is that actually healing? They're not engaging. Are they doing this outside of their social media or is social media their only outlet for it? If social media was their only outlet for it, it's not going to be helpful, because you need that human-to-human connection and understanding. So if they were doing the social media thing and they were actually connecting with people and sharing those vulnerabilities with them, first because they're safe, then it may be helpful.
Speaker 1:I was looking at some research on because people were making this point about being authentic. So that's kind of how this whole. Well, I'm just being authentic and I'm sharing with my followers. You know what I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, okay, and they'll talk about their healing, but even in their videos they're not showing progress of healing. So it made me wonder. I'm like, are they just if that's their only group that they're commenting to, then it would land with some narcissistic behavior, because it's this need for admiration Like, oh wow, you're so brave, you're so this, you're so that you're conquering all these things, and you know. That's kind of how they present it and it's hard because you don't want to tell someone, hey, you're not growing if you're doing this, right, or hey, you're being narcissistic when you're sharing about your pain, but the behavior itself doesn't seem conducive to healing.
Speaker 1:If that's your only outlet, right, it's an audience, essentially, and when you're sharing those deep, vulnerable things it has. You have to be able to do that person to person, because you talking online to someone else and them not really knowing you. There's no, there's no safety there, right, and you need safety to be vulnerable with people. You don't just share your deepest, darkest moments with people you don't know, right, but it gives the perception of connectedness. And that's where the research is a little bit mixed, because if people perceive that they're connecting with others, then it might make them feel good, right.
Speaker 1:But if they perceive that they're not connecting with other people, even though they may be right Someone may be impacted by someone's testimony then obviously they're going to become more neurotic. They're going to become more, even though they may be right, someone may be impacted by someone's testimony. Then obviously they're going to become more neurotic. They're going to become more obsessive, thinking about their impact on the people who are listening to them and so on, right? So yeah, social media is interesting. It's really changed a lot of the mental health field for us, do you think?
Speaker 2:social media is driving narcissistic behavior and increasing MPD.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely, because the question is, who, right? Like, how can I tell the difference between someone who's being genuine in what they're sharing and someone who's not? You know, I can't. I can only go by behaviors, right, and I would only be able to do that with, maybe, people that I know, but the behaviors themselves do display characteristics of narcissism.
Speaker 1:Right, this need for admiration is a big one, but it doesn't connect with the other two. Like, okay, this person has a need for admiration, that's one of the characteristics, but do they also lack empathy? How do they treat other people in their lives, right, and do they speak about themselves in a grandiose way? So, without those other two factors, I could just say that they're seeking attention. You know this need for admiration. They're seeking attention, and I think that's the problem that we're encountering with social media and these different psychological disorders. Right, someone opens up an OCD page, right, and they talk about their OCD. There's someone who talks about their ADHD, you know, journey and so on. So, is it just seeking attention? Yeah, probably, but you know, that's kind of the world that we're in. The question is, is it helping them or is it not? I think what's happening is that it's just creating more conversations and people are saying oh, I have that, so I must have OCD, or I must have ADHD, or I must be NPD.
Speaker 2:Why don't you have anyone who wants NPD? I know people want it, maybe they do. But OCD, I think, gives people an excuse. I'm not not saying people who genuinely struggle with this, I'm saying that the people who maybe claim it claim the title. It sort of gives them an excuse, like an excuse for their behavior or like I have adhd or other things.
Speaker 1:But I don't know of anyone who wants to be called a narcissist no, yeah, no, you're right, and I think that the people who want to explore and identify NPD are the ones who have been hurt by others who have displayed these characteristics.
Speaker 2:So typically they've been wounded by an artist assistant, so they see it everywhere Exactly.
Speaker 1:So now everyone is like that, and you know, I had an ex like this and, oh yeah, all my exes were like that. Well, that also says something about the choices that you're making too.
Speaker 2:There's an example I'm thinking of with, like Gen Z, tiktokers. This is like a couple of years ago maybe, who knows how long ago it was. It may have been more recent than that, but there was this trend of high school and college age young people doing TikTok dances, like filming themselves doing TikTok dances by the bedside of their grandparents, like their bedridden, almost incapacitated grandparents who were barely conscious, barely there. But there was this trend of these teenagers and college age students going into into their like picture, like a nursing home or something you know. They go to visit their grandparent and then they're doing a little tiktok dance with their grandparent behind them in the background. I just can't like I mean, it's just totally like unethical number one, but you know if you're on tiktok.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you care about ethics, but but that's the the total selfishness of that kind of behavior. It seemed that did seem narcissistic to me, like you're attention seeking, but you're also you're using your grandparent as a as some sort of prop in your tiktok video.
Speaker 1:It was just so like depraved to me yeah, no, and you're right, and see that one would probably hit on two of the big three like a need for admiration and lack of empathy, right? Like, do you not think that that's disrespectful and that people who you know, other family members, feel the pain of losing that grandparent? Right, so it could be those two? Then you look for the third one. Are there any expressions of grandiosity for them? Like, oh, this is, you know, I'm the best tick doctor and here's how I started. I started to use, you know, these dances on the graves and so on, so, and you'd probably hit all three after that, but, yeah, so those are the ones that you want to look for. So, even though they'd hit two, yeah, okay, they're attention seekers and have no empathy, but but they still don't meet MPD criteria.
Speaker 2:All right, so let's get into this conversation about church and relationships. Where does narcissism show up? Which one do you want to tackle first, relationships or church?
Speaker 1:Let's do church, because I think I had some questions for you in regards to that.
Speaker 2:So where does narcissism show up in the church?
Speaker 1:Leadership right for you? Um, in regards, where does it, where does narcissism show up in the church? Leadership right, and this? This goes back to my example, or a former client that wanted to be a worship pastor and how he wanted to be this leader and, you know, wanted for god. So he was using all the right terms, all the right words, but his, his motivation for seeking out that position started to hit on all these other characteristics of NPD. And, yeah, so do we see that in the church?
Speaker 1:When it comes to people who are seeking leadership positions, you know, I've seen people with time. You know they develop skills, they obviously they've been discipled, they go through the whole process, they serve, you know, at the bottom and work, kind of work their way up in a sense. But then you have some others who come in and they're just super skilled, right. They're very good at communicating ideas and thoughts and principles and so on, very charismatic, right. So these people typically and again this is where you could help me out in this aspect of how do churches or leadership see these people so that they see them as, oh, this person's super capable, they have a lot of influence. I can see them teaching a Bible study and they just raise them into leadership. They just place them there.
Speaker 1:So for someone who's young, who's maybe a new believer or just a charismatic person, like for them, it's just like oh yeah, this is just another space for me to, you know, show my skills and man people, people love me, and people this and people that.
Speaker 1:So they start getting these grandiose ideas about themselves and start to believe it, and now they require this admiration, now they can't live without it. Now let's say that they commit some sort of sin that disqualifies them from leadership and they can't let go of that leadership position Like they would demand. No, hey, I'm going to do all the necessary steps to to keep this position and because they need it right, it becomes a need for them. So my question to you would be like are you, do you see this in the church, right? These, these charismatic young guys who are, you know, who are admired by people in the church, are seen as very competent and they just raise them up in leadership, and I think that's really bad. Again, we talked about setting and, yeah, and the culture that that could help someone or make it easier for someone to develop these different characteristics someone or make it easier for someone to develop these different characteristics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, our culture is replete with examples of men who are narcissists in their roles as pastors and, of course, predictably, they end up falling into scandals, sexual sin and other things. I don't think I have to name them here, but there's lots of examples of this, of either young or old. A lot of them were young or they rose to prominence when they were young and they had a lot of success and they didn't have a lot of people around them who would exhort them, correct them, tell them where they stunk, or tell them, uh, where they stunk, you know. Or tell them what their sermons stank, you know? Um, you know? I'd say where am I going with this?
Speaker 2:The, the pastorate role, it, it is a, it's a position of prominence in the church. So people, christians, need to understand any position of prominence or any position that would bring attention to you is inherently a dangerous position and you need people in those positions who are humble and who are wise and have some experience. That could go for worship leading, it could go for pastoring. Um, if you're charismatic, the person who speaks in tongues, I don't know, you know, like these positions of authority and prominence in the church, they can attract narcissists because it does bring with it authority, admiration, control. Yeah, it can bring all those things, it can give you all those things, and so it naturally is going to attract narcissistic personalities. So the church needs to be really on guard for that too. They need to really be careful about elevating people to positions of authority, young people who are young in the faith. Let's say not necessarily about that.
Speaker 2:No, or Paul, not necessarily young in age, but young in the faith. Immature believers yeah, that could be a young person, but it could also be a person who's middle aged or older, who is not very mature in their faith. Elevating those people to positions of prominence in the church spells danger and disaster. Paul warns about not appointing young men to positions of authority. James says not many of you should become teachers because you will incur stricter judgment. And he's writing to a congregation who they're all fighting with one another because they all desire to have authority over each other.
Speaker 2:They're all you know. He says in James 4, why, where do all these wars come from? Among you? Do they not come from your passions that you desire to hold one over on someone else? Um, so there's, there's a problem in the church of just in general. This is not just the american church, this is this goes for a lot of evangelical churches all over the world of, uh, the position of elder teacher, because because it's a position of authority, it will attract people who like attention and who like the authority. So churches, when they're trying to find someone to fill that position, they need to be very on guard for that, need to watch for it. Sadly, I don't think enough churches do that or even are aware that they need to be doing that.
Speaker 1:Um, it's just, it's, it's such a common problem.
Speaker 2:I mean, just this week news broke of a pastor I don't even want to call him a pastor, he's a predator and a monster in Florida who was quote unquote pastoring a church for years but he was also abusing the children in that church. He was just arrested just this last week and a total predator, and that kind of a person is at least sociopathic, if not narcissistic. Um, that's a wolf in sheep's clothing, yeah, you know. And and that jesus warns us against that. Like we have to be on guard for those things. Uh, so I'm here. Yeah, like narcissism in the church is anyone who is who, who loves that praise and admiration, who I mean? I've heard some preachers they boast about their wealth or they boast about their good looks at their hot wife or whatever you know. It's just like weird. It's weird Egotistical behavior.
Speaker 1:That's where it's noticeable, right. Like you start seeing all of those things, like those are just little clues, right, little things, yeah, yeah, I'd say if you're in a congregation you're like is, am I dealing with a narcissist?
Speaker 2:well, do they do things like that? Do they do the weird egotistical, grandiose, braggadocious behavior? That's just like. That's strange. It is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you might be yeah, oh, and, and you know, I would encourage for you know, those who are listening, whether they be in leadership, in church or you know, even just as church members is that one thing you should know about narcissists is that they're patient, like they want the admiration and control so much that they're willing, in a sense, to pay the price to get it. And once they get it, that's when you see those colors come out, right. So that goes back to your point about vetting. Is that okay? Is this person like, what are they doing? Are they seeking out this position? It will become apparent. They're just, but they'll be patient about the process, right? They'll be willing to do whatever it takes to get to that position of leadership, right?
Speaker 1:So you start just paying attention to those little things because they will be paid, they'll wait years, they just need to get, they feel like they need to get that position. And again, you can test it out how do they respond when they do something and you don't give them praise for it, right? Just kind of little tests like that, like not giving praise or correction. You actually give them correction Correction is a big one, yep, but we're afraid because remember the leadership they're afraid to correct that person, because then they're going to lose them. So what does he do? He goes somewhere else where they aren't going to correct them, right?
Speaker 2:That's what the nurses will do A rebuke, even a soft rebuke, goes into a wise man. By that, a humble man goes into a wise man. More than a hundred blows to the back of a fool, yeah. So someone who receives correction, who is willing to be corrected and either by other elders or by their own congregation to receive, you know, brutal feedback sometimes yeah, that that the pastor needs to be someone who does that. If they're not willing to do that and I know of people personally I've encountered where I just gave them a little bit of feedback- not even bad, it wasn't horrible.
Speaker 2:I wasn't like shredding them, I was just giving them a little bit of feedback and, man, the defenses went up quick. It was just like they just acted like who are you to talk to me, right? Right, I well, I happen to have, you know, advanced degrees in theology and bible. I'm just trying to help you. Yeah, sorry, that was braggadocious, I'm narcissistic behavior.
Speaker 2:Now I'm zipping that it's just kind of like some pastors, man, it's like I don't know if it's like insecurity or what. Like you know, seminarians and like bible teachers who are not pastors, can be kind of arrogant because they can sit in the pews and just like pew, pew, pew, pew and like poke holes and sermons all day long, and that's that's lazy, that's not helpful. You know, as a younger man I used to do that and that was just not. This doesn't help anyone. Um, so don't do that.
Speaker 2:If you, if you are not a pastor but you're a bible teacher, you know, come and support your pastors and and help them. But if you're a pastor, you should lean on those guys like, yeah, ask them for feedback if you're not. So I've seen so many pastors who who are not willing to hear feedback from people in their congregation who are, who are qualified to give them feedback and they're just not willing to have it and like that's a problem, like you're setting yourself up for failure. Like, ask for feedback, it's going to make you better and make you humble, yeah, and that's why it's so important.
Speaker 1:I think, if we think about models, I guess is that you always want to have the ones that you raise up within the church, because you get to know them and you've seen them in different capacities, right. So you've seen them over the long haul how they behave with each of these different uh elements of criticism, or how they receive praise and so on.
Speaker 2:So a good test. A good test for young up and coming guys in ministry. If you're, if you're a person who's in a church, you're, you've been in church for a long time, you're part of the committee, I guess, and maybe selects guys who are going to preach at the pulpit and things. See how they deal, see how they deal with obscurity, like put them in a place where they don't receive a lot of attention and just see how they deal with it. Yeah, not for long, but like just see how they deal with it. Yeah, like you said, like see how they deal if you don't praise them for something, how they respond to it yeah, these are good tests, not, not in a mean way, but you really are trying to discern that person's character.
Speaker 2:You have to yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's then know that's a good point that you can't see this aspect of filtering or betting as mean or unkind. You have to see it as a way that you're protecting the church right, because, like I said, narcissists are patient. They're going to wait if they're going to get what they want. And again, you have a bunch of little tests that you can do to see what their motives are. Now, again, because they're so good at what they do, you may not catch all of them, but at least you're going through the process of actually trying to vet them, right, and that's really important.
Speaker 1:So you look at personality traits, you look at them over a long time and then you can see these characteristics. They will come up. But for the pastors or for those in leadership, they have to be willing to lose that person Because, again, I think they give them so much value like, oh, they're so charismatic, they're so well-spoken, you know they teach very well that they're afraid to lose someone who could be a potential leader for their church. So you have to be willing to lose that person by you confronting them at times or correcting them. But yeah, I think those are great tests, tim.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. Another one this is something that gets debated a lot in seminaries and Bible colleges is what's the model of leadership for churches, Like the political makeup of a church leadership. Should it be a single head pastor or a body of elders? So there's the debate about that. My position is that the biblical, the New Testament model is a plurality of elders in these local churches, that there should be a body of elders that share the teaching responsibilities. Maybe there's one that does more teaching than some others, but there should be a body of elders that help lead the church, because what that does is that decentralizes authority and authority and it's a buffer.
Speaker 2:If, let's say, a narcissist does rise to that level, you at least have some others that can keep that person in check. It really is a bad situation when you have a true narcissist who rises to the single authority in the church. That's an extremely dangerous situation. Now it might be like they're, they're, they're a Christian and they're not a predator, they're just a narcissist, so they're a jerk to people and they shape the church in their own image. That's damaging enough as it is that you're lucky if that is all he does. But a narcissist who is in that position of authority can do so so much more, so much more damage. So it's very dangerous, and so I think a plurality of elders is the wise way to construct your church yeah, I agree with you, tim.
Speaker 1:I like that. I do like having one primary teacher, but, yeah, yeah, that there is a plurality of elders who are leading the church together for that kind of ingrained accountability within that model. I'm going to take one of your pages here and actually recommend. You know there's a really good book by Chuck DeGroat. It's called when Narcissism Comes to Church. Yeah, it's a really good book and touches on this aspect of emotional and spiritual abuse from those in leadership. So if you're looking for a resource or something to read, that's a really good book. So, yeah, a big part of narcissism, unfortunately, is hitting our churches and I think we can be more wise and careful in how we select our leaders and so on. Again, things that you're going to see, this excessive admiration or control, that's what they seek spiritual authority for personal gain and then manipulating congregants for validation, right, so they have their close circle and if everyone in that circle is all for validation, then you know those are some signs that you'll notice there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a pastor who I won't name. I won't have to name those who know will know who I'm talking about but this pastor created an infamous what do you call it the Ring of Honor or Circle of Honor, basically his inner circle, and he gave them all rings, special rings that they wore and that gave them special access to him, like exclusive access to him, and then he would oftentimes remove that ring and give it to someone else, take it away from the people that he gave it to, yeah, and give it to someone else, and so take it away from the people that he gave it to yeah, yeah, and give it to someone else for a time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's I will. I won't name who that person is. If you want to know, just look at you probably look it up and find it out.
Speaker 1:But it's like uh okay, that's weird yeah, uh more than weird, but okay.
Speaker 2:So I want to ask about relationships, but let's do a little fun thing first. Just quickly, real quick, name one historical figure not in the Bible, just in history that you think was a narcissist. You can't say Hitler, because that's an easy one, it's someone else, someone in history you think was a narcissist, true narcissist.
Speaker 1:How far back? As far back as you want to go To what? As far back as you want to go, as far back how far? How far back as you want to go to what? As far back as you want to go, as far back as I want to go um, it could be a contemporary person too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's thinking, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1:He's thinking it's just there's. There's so many that I can choose from. It's um, I should say a controversial one.
Speaker 2:I'd say most political leaders.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean and that's kind of where my head is at because it's all about power control and manipulation.
Speaker 2:My figure was Napoleon.
Speaker 1:Napoleon Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say Napoleon.
Speaker 1:Based on our conversation that we've been having, would he meet those three criteria?
Speaker 2:Oh, I think so Very much so.
Speaker 2:Or if not him, louis XIV of France. That dude was so full of himself. He's the one who built the Palace of Versailles. If you ever get a chance to go to Paris, you got to go visit the palace of Versailles. If you ever get a chance to go to Paris, you gotta go visit the palace of Versailles, which is like a train ride, just a 30 minute train ride away. And he built that was his palace, and man, that thing is just ornate, but he had the whole. He's famous for saying I am the state. He was the king of France mid 1800s sorry, mid 1700s. And he I am the state. He was the king of France mid-1800s, sorry, mid-1700s. He was famous for saying I am the state. He had people around him. He gave special duties to all kinds of people around him to do very specific things. Some people they got to watch him get tucked into bed at night. Their duty was to document him get tucked into bed at night.
Speaker 1:Their duty was to document him getting tucked into bed at night, yeah.
Speaker 2:Others would just follow him around the hallways, and that was their duty. Everything was about that guy. He bankrupted his country. His grandson was Louis XVI that lost his head in the French Revolution. So, his grandkid paid for his excesses.
Speaker 1:But louis the 14th, if not napoleon, yeah, yeah, um yeah, as you look at, he's looking back at history, would you say, queen mary?
Speaker 2:I don't know much about queen mary. I honestly have to admit I'm not bloody mary.
Speaker 1:Okay, I don't know, are you? I don't know much, I'm not, I'm not, uh, what you come up like bloody mary.
Speaker 2:Bloody mary, okay, I don't know are you?
Speaker 1:I don't know much about her specifically. I'm just thinking about, um, you know the whole process, the whole uh. Yeah, just what she was known for for killing all these uh people I think that's what it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, she was definitely a tyrant, and tyrants typically, you know narcissists and it's interesting when we think about kings, and kings more so but, um, because their whole thing is that they're looking out for their people, right, like it's. It's a position that's this. That's described as it's a for you to look out for your people, to protect your country, right, the same thing, like for us, with our president, it's to protect our country, to look out for the interest of your people. But in the process, it becomes so driven by money and power and influence that they lose that along the way. And I think even george washington made alluded to this. I think he said, um, something like um, you know, there should be no little to no money involved in the process of serving your people, that it's a privilege to serve your people, because money is going to corrupt you.
Speaker 1:And that's basically what politics is today. Like money, people seek politics for power, influence and money, right? So, yeah, I mean, just to your point, all politicians have that. So do they really care for their people or are they in it just for themselves? And it's hard to tell because some seem so genuine, right? Yeah, political um, uh, you know candidates who are in it and they seem to be in service for the people. But you just never know. You just never know. I can only, but we could only go by the behaviors. What's the behaviors? What's the output of, uh, of those people? And again, these people can do those things and still benefit other people. So here.
Speaker 2:Here's another fun one. What's one figure from the Bible?
Speaker 1:that you would say would be a narcissist.
Speaker 2:If you had to pick one, I can go if you, saul.
Speaker 1:King Saul.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:Who were you thinking?
Speaker 2:Oh, I was thinking of Diotrephes, a little lesser known in the New Testament, 3 John. Read the book of 3 John.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:This goes back to church leadership. Diotrephes is a guy John says he loves to have the preeminence among you and he didn't receive John's messengers. So the Apostle John is sending people to this church to give them a correction, and this guy named diatrophies is like nah, bro, this is my church, right? Yeah, so he's a definitely a narcissist gotcha.
Speaker 2:no, that's good yeah that's why I like to say that narcissists today in the church embody the spirit of diatrophies Because they act like him. Interesting, yeah, all right. So let's, we're okay. Relationships, yeah, as we wrap up, yeah, let's go into relationships. We've got a few more minutes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So where does like if someone's in a relationship and they're like am I in a relationship with a narcissist, how can I tell yeah? Where do narcissists show up with a?
Speaker 1:narcissist. How do I, how can I tell, yeah, yeah, yeah, where you see open relationships, yeah, you'll see the very obviously the same characteristics, the you know that we're identifying in someone who's in a more public space or who's seeking leadership. But again, still this there's this need for admiration and that need is what drives the person to stay in the relationship. So you'll often see an imbalance of praise and admiration in the couple right, where one is just doting on the other person, just constantly praising them for all the good that they are, and then you don't see a response from the person who's receiving it. And that should be one of the key signs that you look at where there's only one who's praising the other but the other doesn't return that favor or doesn't do that for the other person. Like that's this unhealthy dynamic of this. Person needs the praise and if they praise their significant other, they're kind of, in a sense, losing that praise or feel like they're not as worthy or not as good. So they need to be in relationships where they're always being praised. So that's one of those signs. Another sign is not having empathy for the other person that they're with right. The person could be going through something very painful and hurtful and the person doesn't know how to be there for them. They'll say something like well, you need to work that out yourself. I can't be here for you all the time and I can't be your constant source of support. Go out with your friends. It's very subtle, this lack of empathy that they show for their significant other. And again, it's just not being present, not being available, feeling like well, then they'll shift the blame. They'll say, well, what about me? You know, what about my feelings? What about my desires? What about my things? You're not meeting those things either. So there's this back and forth push where they're unable to experience the pain of someone else.
Speaker 1:And you also have manipulative behaviors. Obviously, that breaks down the trust and intimacy of the people. So, a lot of lying, a lot of justification of certain types of behaviors. Well, they'll say, well, that's not my fault. Like, you know, this is normal for me to do. Like, why should you have a problem with that? But then they themselves will have a problem with something else that the person does that is of equal or even more significance. So, like, who are you talking to? Why can't I have, you know, girlfriends and you have guy friends, and vice versa. Right, so they have unrealistic standards for each other or for the other person. They don't hold the same standards for themselves that they hold for their significant other. You know, it's interesting when you look at people who have been in narcissistic, abusive relationships, they almost feel crazy. They feel like, gosh, was I the one? Was I narcissistic? Like, was I only thinking about myself? There's all these questions about their value and their own self-perception. Everything gets changed, right.
Speaker 2:They were probably a victim of gaslighting, would you say.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, that's one of the characteristics of a narcissist person. They'll gaslight you, and they do it consistently. It's not just like everyone does it every once in a while, but this narcissist will use that as their primary weapon, in a sense, where they make you question your reality, like everything is is made up and you're just like wait, did I not remember that correctly? Like was that not really happened? It's, it's such a clash when the person that you're with is kind of making you believe that something didn't really happen and it did right, right? So those narcissists that they'll. You'll see that in the relationship and again, you see it a little bit early on. But, yeah, once you're in for a good three months, I think you'll be able to see those behaviors much more Again. Look at how they're treating other people and they'll give you just a little clue into how they're going to treat you.
Speaker 2:So real quick, and I'm putting you on the spot with this question what advice would you give someone who thinks maybe I'm dealing with a narcissist? What advice would you give them for dealing with a narcissist?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the best thing is to do the preventative work right. The preventative work is setting boundaries. Okay, so we'll start there with the preventative piece, because the reason why people get into narcissistic relationships first of all is because they want to be in a relationship, they want to be loved, they want to be cared for, they want to be needed. A narcissist does that early on. They love, bomb the person. You're the most important thing in the world. And they do it so much that you've created this false reality, believe that that person is always going to be that. But then, with time, they start breaking you down, right, and now they're demanding from you that you give them praise, that you let them do whatever they want, that you should be there for them, and so on. They do so much at the beginning that they expect for you to maintain that throughout the rest of the relationship right. So all of that love bombing they want you to do in return for the rest of the relationship, right so? Continual admiration, continual affirmation, all of those different things. But if you're a person who knows how to set good boundaries, you'll free yourself or save yourself from this type of person, because you have to learn how to say no, Because even when you do that in a narcissistic relationship it's going to bother the other person. So you got to just be more consistent. It's just painful, right to let go of their relationship because you become codependent, right? You now depend on this person who's been there for you for whatever length of time, and now you feel stuck. You feel like you can't do anything. But if you have good boundaries beforehand like you won't get into a narcissistic relationship because they break boundaries, right.
Speaker 1:So as soon as you start feeling that early on, that's when you can be like oh, this is a red flag here. I need to pull back, evaluate the situation and then go on. But they're gonna love bomb you. So look for those signs. So are they love bombing you, meaning they're praising you, they're giving you, buying you gifts and doing all these extravagant things for you real early on, and making you feel like you're the best thing in the world. And then that slows down because that's hard to keep up. It's just not reality. So that's why they create this false reality early on to make you believe it. And once you do, you're kind of stuck in that. You're stuck in this cognitive dissonance of it. Wasn't like this before. But yeah, they'll manipulate your emotions and make you feel like you have no other options. There's a lot of that Like you're nothing without me, you'll never succeed without me. Blah, blah, blah. This, this and that, and you know, those are again things that you can see pretty evident.
Speaker 1:All right, it's hard, it's hard.
Speaker 2:All right. So wrapping up, is there hope for the narcissist?
Speaker 1:You know, I call myself the hopeful realist, right, when I understand the reality of the situation, but I'm always hopeful that things can change, right? So with a narcissist, yes, right, you can unlearn certain behaviors. If you've been behaving this way for a long time, right, but you're going to have to deal with a lot of that inner work that you know. Why are you seeking admiration? You know you'll see a lot of trauma, a lot of abandonment, right, and you also have lot of trauma, a lot of abandonment from every child. And you also have the opposite, too, where you have parents who only say good things about their kids or to their kids, but never any critique or feedback or anything like that. So, parents, those who are listening you have to be able to balance both the praise for your kids, not for them as people there's some research actually done on this that you praise your kids not for who they are as people, but for what they do right, that gives them more of a sense of value because it's attached to their capabilities. Right, and you build that up right. If you just say you're good, you're good, you're good, they're just going to believe inanely that they're good when they may be acting like jerks, sometimes, right.
Speaker 1:So you got to correct certain behaviors as they get older and narcissistic kids, adults typically have parents who have overpraised them and never corrected them, so they think that everything that they do is right. What do you mean? You know I should be, you should be treating me well, like you know, kind of like the princess mentality, like I deserve to be treated like a princess. Or the guy who feels like, well, I deserve the best because I worked hard for it, right. Where do you get that from? From parents who consistently tell you that everything you do is good and they never corrected you right. So all of those factors, along with personality traits, along with setting, can set someone up to develop narcissistic personalities sounds like that is a good topic for another episode sometime.
Speaker 1:Parenting yeah, kind of problems.
Speaker 2:So all right, man. Well, that's all the time we have, yeah so we. So we will. We will wrap it up Our audience. Thank you for listening. Uh, we will be concluding season one and the next few episodes and then opening up season two, probably. I think you know one of our episodes, I think Sam Sam Sam, erroneous, erroneously mentioned that gentle dangerous men would be the end of season one but actually we think it's going to be season two, the beginning of season two, so I hope you enjoy these last few episodes of season one.
Speaker 2:Please don't forget to leave a comment or review on Apple or Spotify. That really does help us a lot. If you have feedback for the show, send us a message. Send us a message on Instagram you can message us there or Twitter, yeah, facebook or psychandtheo at gmailcom. You can do that too, and we'll get it eventually. So we love your feedback and we thank you for listening. Have a good night, thanks, guys.