Ep. 23 - How Should You Read, Interpret, and Apply the Bible Accurately?: Insights on Hermeneutics and Exegesis

Unlock the secrets of accurate scripture interpretation with Dr. Tim Yonts, our expert guest in hermeneutics and biblical study. This episode promises to enhance your understanding of the Bible by focusing on the critical process of proper exegesis and the dangers of proof texting. Dr. Yonts guides us through the essential phases of Bible study—observation, interpretation, and application—emphasizing the need for meticulous examination to grasp the true meaning of scripture.

Explore the vital role of context in interpreting biblical texts, from literary and historical-cultural to contemporary settings. With insights from J. Bolton Hayes' "Grasping God's Word," Dr. Yonts illustrates the "interpretive journey" as akin to navigating a river, highlighting the importance of understanding the original audience's context. We challenge the intuitive approach and stress the value of rigorous methodologies and collaborative study to mitigate personal biases and uncover the inherent meaning of the scriptures.

Dive deep into practical interpretation steps with vivid examples like Moses hitting the rock and Jeremiah 29:11, ensuring you can apply theological principles correctly today. Engage with the rich historical and archaeological context of Peter's confession at Caesarea Philippi, enriching your understanding of this key biblical passage. Finally, we emphasize the importance of integrating scripture study into daily life and its relevance across various professions. Join us for an enlightening conversation that underscores the value of thoughtful and thorough engagement with the Bible.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and Theo podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:06

We're excited that you're here and we are so, so, so thankful for your support and for your encouragement through Instagram, through Facebook, just comments that you guys have been leaving for us, and when we see you guys, just you know, or text messages telling us how the podcast has been a blessing, just you know, or text messages telling us how the podcast is has been a blessing, and again, that's very encouraging for us, as we we've started this like four, four months ago, so we're still rolling, we're still here and still trying to continue the conversation on these various topics. And today we have our expert here on hermeneutics and biblical study and obviously Mr Tim Yance, or Dr Tim Yance, is going to help us understand scripture and we'll talk a little bit about how that can be applied to your life and even how I view some of that in my counseling approach. So I will pass this off to Tim Tim. See, where do we start when we talk about this topic of hermeneutics and why is it important for us to understand this?

Speaker 2: 1:11

well, yeah, so this is a topic that most seminarians and biblical studies students will have to have taken a class on, or many classes on. Students will have to have taken a class on, or many classes on, hermeneutics. For those of you who don't know, hermeneutics means the method or the science of interpretation it's dealing with how do we exegete the text, exegesis meaning from the text. We draw meaning from the text to figure out what the message is. So hermeneutics is the, is the science behind that, um, preaching, preaching on sunday mornings is both the science and art. But behind the science side of preaching is hermeneutics, proper hermeneutics. So we want to make sure that we're interpreting the scriptures correctly, because there's a lot of it, a lot of material out there that abuses the, the scriptures, takes verses out of context. There's a lot of it, a lot of material out there that abuses the scriptures, takes verses out of context. There's countless examples of people doing this, whether that's pastors or worship leaders or Bible studies or whatever. So we need to make sure that we are interpreting the word correctly or whatever. So we need to make sure that we are interpreting the word correctly. We also need to make sure that we're putting in the work to draw out the deepest, the most profound meaning we can from the text and that we're not just doing something what we call proof texting, where you're just taking a verse and you're taking it way out of context because it happens to have a word in that verse that you're looking for like let's show me all the. You go on bible gateway maybe, and you say show me all the words or all the scripture verses that have peace in it, and then you collect 20 verses from the bible with the word peace in it and then you just develop a Bible lesson from that. That's not the way to teach about peace. So the method of hermeneutics, the method of interpretation, means that we need to follow a process to derive the meaning from the text, and so there's many layers to this. But let's get into this a little bit and I'm going to breeze through this and then I'll give you some examples of where this comes about, so you can hang your hat on something and put meat to these bones.

Speaker 2: 3:35

But if you think about the way we studied the Bible, there's three main steps, three big like big, or let's say phases, because there's a five-step process to interpreting the Bible. At least this is what most people follow. But there's three big phases. The first phase is observation. That's just looking at the text. You're looking at what do I see? Not just the text but the background information. Maybe that's commentaries, maybe that's not just the text but the background information, maybe that's commentaries, maybe that's other resources that have something to say on the background of that text. You're observing, you're taking notes, you're gathering information. That's phase one. Phase two is interpretation. That is trying to decipher the meaning of the text based on all the data that you have. But before you get to step two or phase two, you have to have done phase one. Well, the more data you have, the better, would you say.

Speaker 1: 4:35

That's where the most work is done in the observation.

Speaker 2: 4:37

Yeah, that's where the most work is done is collecting the data, because if you don't have the right data, you have wrong data, you have missing data. That's crucial, and we'll see an example of this later. Um, you're going to get the interpretation very, very wrong. Um, now, I don't say that to make people despair, um, because the holy spirit can help us um find that data and um, and we have 2 000 years of church history of people studying the Bible and lots of different commentaries. So there's lots of data out there. There's lots of people who have studied the scriptures that you can lean on, and we all lean on someone, we all lean on authorities of some sort. But you have to do observation.

Speaker 2: 5:20

Observation is think of it this way have you ever looked, looked at a, at a, an image maybe that's a painting or a digital image on a computer screen or tv and you just stared at it for a long time? The longer you stare at something, the more you notice about it, the more details you start to notice. Um, if you were to just glance at it every day, you wouldn't notice those details. But if you sit down and you and you intently look at that image and you observe all four corners and everything in between. You start to notice all the little details and a lot more starts to rise out of that image to you. You start to see more things. That's why observation is important when studying the scriptures.

Speaker 2: 6:09

The longer you sit with the Bible and with all the data that you can gather from it and you just look and you observe, you'll start to notice things. You'll start to notice patterns, you'll start to notice parallels. You'll start to notice how. You'll start to notice patterns. You'll start to notice parallels. You'll start to notice how one verse bleeds into another. And then, oh, you know the author is making this point, but he also made that point earlier in his letter. Or, you know, I've seen a parallel to this story in another part of this book. You start to see those things over and over another part of this book. You start to see those things over and over. And then it gets even deeper if you start to study the original languages, which most people in church don't know, the original languages, and that's okay. That's why you can lean on commentaries and people who do study these things. But more of those patterns and more of those parallels can rise out of the text when you observe them. So you have to do observation well, you have to document things well.

Speaker 2: 7:10

So then you get to interpretation, and interpretation is this phase where you are trying to come up with the meaning or decipher what is the meaning of the text. This is the controversial. Well, the third phase is also controversial, but this is the controversial phase because, um, some people will say, well, the text can mean, the text can have multiple meanings or it can have an infinite number of meanings, and that's just not true. The text has one, at least one primary meaning. It might have, it might have a double meaning or hidden meanings within it, but it has, objectively, one meaning that the author of the text meant yeah, and if you know, getting into, like the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that the Lord, the Holy Spirit, wanted that author to say.

Speaker 2: 7:58

And that meaning is what we need to get at first, is what we need to get at first before we get to application, before we start trying to apply it to our lives. We have to get to what is the original meaning of that text. So, in order to do that, we got to understand who is the original audience and what was the purpose for writing, who wrote it, what was their context. These are all the things, those are those data points that we got to collect. Those help us determine what the meaning or, like the how to interpret the text and then, only after we interpret the text, we decipher oh, here's the, here's the original meaning. Then we can move to application. But application is tricky because that requires us to move into the realm of. What does it mean for me? Right, right, you know.

Speaker 2: 8:46

Uh, so I like to here's a here's a good way to put it the the all of scriptures is given by inspiration of god, okay, but specific passages of scripture are written to someone. They're written for all of us, but they're written to someone, so there's an original audience. Like john wrote his letters to an original audience, now they are also written for us, but they are written to someone else. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, like yeah, paul wrote his, his letter to the corinthians, to the corinthians, but that letter is also written for us, for our benefit that future christians would eventually be reading what he was saying to the christians at that time, in a sense because it was the holy spirit.

Speaker 2: 9:36

Yeah, the early church came to recognize that letter as inspired. Yeah, and that it was applicable and useful for the church yeah. So when it comes to application, we then have to do the work of deciphering. Okay, what is the difference between the original meaning and my context?

Speaker 2: 9:56

now, because there's a lot of difference you think of, like if there's a letter from the first century that Paul wrote to the Corinthians, there's 2,000 years of difference between us. Now they're New Testament Christians, just like we are, so that's helpful. There's a lot of parallels there, but there's a lot of difference too. It gets even harder when you back all the way up to Old Testament Hebrews living in Canaan and they have the Pentate, which is which is the first five books of the bible. It's like, how does that relate to me in the 21st century as a christian, that you have to. We have to do a whole lot more work to get there okay, I wonder if that's possible.

Speaker 1: 10:37

Huh, I said I wonder if that's what holds people back, because we're talking about this and we're saying, well, you know the the important part here is, you know, you have to gather the data and then you have to work at the interpretation of what the original author intended. And I think people already just see those two steps and just think themselves, like, well, that's why I depend on you know, my pastor or this teacher, you know. So I think what we're wanting to communicate with this episode is that, you know, to get to have a relationship with Christ, we have to do this aspect of really wanting to get to know him through these passages right, to do the work, as you said, of studying the context, understanding, doing our observations and then finding what the original author intended. And it's work. I mean, it takes a lot of work.

Speaker 2: 11:23

Yeah, intended and it's, it's work. I mean, it takes a lot of work, yeah. So, um, I like to bring students to this point, um, not to a point of despair, but to a point of, um, maybe, hopefully, humility. Uh, so I told him this here's good news number one interpretation is possible. It's not impossible for us to get to the meaning of the text. So that's good news number one. Good news number two interpretation is for everyone.

Speaker 2: 11:47

If you're a believer, if you're a follower of Christ, then the process of interpreting and understanding God's word is for you as well. It's not just for your pastor, it's not just for the scholar. You can do it too. Now, you may not have as much training and you may have to rely on their expertise for things, but studying the scriptures is for you too, it's not just for them. Here's the bad news, though Interpretation is hard work. You have to put in the work. But then here's the last good news the God rewards diligence, the scriptures, the Holy Spirit will reward that diligence. If you study it, you study the scriptures. So okay, let's get into this a little bit. Let me zoom through my notes here.

Speaker 2: 12:34

So, in Hermitian Interest. I just told you about these three phases observation, interpretation, application. In the world of real a, there's three things that real estate agents will tell you are the most important buying a house, and that's what is it? Location, location, location, location, location, location. Well, there's three things that are important in interpreting the scripture, and that's context, context and context. Now, these three contexts, what are they? Uh, they're the literary context, historical cultural context. Literary meaning what kind of what are they? They're the literary context, historical, cultural context. Literary meaning what kind of document are we dealing with? Historical, cultural meaning when was it written? By whom was it written? To whom was it written? All those things. And then the contemporary context us. What is our situation? So those are the three contexts. So, context, context, context, we call the method of getting to this process, we call it the interpretive journey. Now, I'm getting a lot of this material.

Speaker 2: 13:37

Most seminaries use this book. It's called Grasping God's Word. Let me see if the camera will pick this up. There. It is, yeah, grasping God's Word. Let me see if the camera will pick this up. There, it is yeah, grasping God's Word by J Bolton Hayes. It's a really good book. There's probably a newer edition out than what I have, but I had to use it when I was in Bible school and seminary. It's a great book, just for learning how to read and interpret God's Word, even as a layman. Just for learning how to read and interpret God's word, even as a layman, not as a scholar, even as a layman. So what we call this process is the interpretive journey.

Speaker 2: 14:16

If you think of the separation between my context as a 21st century American and the context of, let's say, an Old Testament Israelite, think of it like we are on two different pieces of land separated by a huge body of water, like a really wide river, like the mississippi, like sam. Let's say, sam, you're an old testament, that's why you're on one side of that river. I'm on the other and I've got to get over to you to figure out what it is, what the meaning of this, this piece of scripture that I have. I got to go over there and ask you what the meaning of this thing is. So what do I got to do? Well, I have to build a bridge. I got to get across this river.

Speaker 2: 14:52

Now some smarty pants will say well, you can just get a boat and go across the river. It's the same principle. Okay, you got to cross the river, all right, but we want to build a bridge so that other people can follow us. Right, so we have to cross the river to do this between the original audience and the contemporary audience. So we could try this in a number of ways. How do we cross this river of cultural differences in time and place? We could take what's called the intuitive approach, which is that, which is that this is just what it feels right to me. This is what it feels to me. This is what the scriptures say to me. You hear this sometimes in bible studies.

Speaker 2: 15:36

You hear sometimes people who are leading bible studies will ask this question what does the scriptures mean to you? I don't care what it means to you.

Speaker 1: 15:44

What does it mean? We gotta ask what does it?

Speaker 2: 15:45

mean not. What does the scriptures mean to you, right? I don't care what it means, like, what does it mean? We gotta ask what does it mean, not just what does it mean to me. So that's the first one and to the intuitive approach is inherently flawed. We can all see what's wrong with this is that you can have contradictory meanings. One person can say, well, this is what it means to me. And the next person in the bible says like, well, that it doesn't mean that to me. It means this to me.

Speaker 1: 16:05

And then now you have an argument on your hands well, everyone can tell to their truth, tim, you know yeah well, yeah, it can confirm you in in lies and errors and things that are not true.

Speaker 2: 16:17

So it's really it's a flawed approach and we shouldn't take it. So don't rely on your intuition so what?

Speaker 1: 16:24

should people do if they go to bible study and someone says what do you think this means?

Speaker 2: 16:30

Well, if they say like what do?

Speaker 1: 16:30

you think it means to you yeah, what does it mean? What does it mean to you? Here's, here's? I think it means this what do you think?

Speaker 2: 16:36

Yeah, I'd say diplomatic. If you can diplomatically steer the conversation toward the objective. The objective, the historical, cultural meaning of the text. That objective meaning that we're trying to get to, yeah, yeah, diplomatically. Do that. Don't destroy someone in Bible study. So that's the intuitive approach. Approach number two is similar.

Speaker 2: 17:00

This is what I call the pooling of ignorance, where no one is actually. Let's say, we're in a Bible study, okay, let's imagine okay, sam, you're the Old Testament Israelite, you're on the other side of this river and I'm in a Bible study with a bunch of people like me and we're trying to figure out what this letter is. That's from your side of the river. What does this mean? Well, instead of asking you, we just ask each other in our little circle what we think it means. But no one, none of us, have actually crossed the river and asked you, so none of us have actually studied to figure out what the answer is, but we're all going to basically pull our ignorance and come up with some nifty cliches or slogans or feel-good statements to help us in our day-to-day walk with the Lord.

Speaker 2: 17:46

I see this sometimes a lot, or I see this a lot with Bible studies too. Is the pulling of ignorance, as though the Holy Spirit will reward lack of study and we can all just come together and, as two or three witnesses you know, confirm something is true in the scriptures, and that's not the case either. So we shouldn't pull our ignorance Like two people being ignorant doesn't. Two ignorant people doesn't make a smart person, you know what.

Speaker 2: 18:14

I mean Right, right, that's a good point yeah. Yeah, that's good Approach. Number three is similar A spiritual approach. That A spiritual approach, I prayed about this.

Speaker 2: 18:24

The spiritual approach You're spiritualizing. I prayed about this. God told me God has shared a message with me, and then you use the Bible to confirm that message you try to at least. So that's another. We can clearly see, maybe, what the problem is with that one. It's like, well, god didn't say that to me, right, yeah? Approach number four is what I call the emo approach, and that's getting discouraged and giving up.

Speaker 2: 18:57

We just conclude oh, there's no way to cross this river we can't do it um and then, but approach number five is that we, we, huh, I was just laughing.

Speaker 1: 19:06

The emo approach? Yeah, it's emo, can't be done.

Speaker 2: 19:10

Yeah, approach number five is what we call the principalizing bridge we build. We build the bridge to try to get at what kind of principles we can get from your side that are applicable to us today. So that's what we got to do. We have some assumptions there. We assume that the Bible is God's word, that it's communicated to us and that there is a meaning that we can get from it. We do not create that meaning Like. I don't create that meaning. I don't get to determine what that meaning is a meaning that we can get from it. We do not create that meaning Like I don't create that meaning. I don't get to determine what that meaning is. God is the one who determines what that meaning is. I can discover that meaning. I can study to try to find out what that meaning is. We seek out and discover what the meaning of the Bible already is. We don't invent that meaning ourselves. We also assume that theological principles are revealed in these passages of Scripture are applicable to any Christian audience today. So there are all. Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable, even the things that seem really obscure. And you're like I'm not sure what to do with this, as Michael. Michael Heiser loves to say if it's weird, it's probably important, so get to work. Mm-hmm, it's possible, but we can use this bridge to get to this, this meaning.

Speaker 2: 20:33

Now, what people need to understand is that all of us when I say the objective meaning, I don't the objective meaning of the text this is what we're trying to get to. I don't mean to say that we can be perfectly, perfectly objective as human beings, because we're not. We bring baggage to the table all the time, including with interpretation. All of us do. We bring our personal experiences, our cultural influences, family, our church background or lack thereof, our ethnicity, nationality. We bring all kinds of things that are like biases that we have to be aware of and try to work out and not allow to influence our study of the text if we want to be objective.

Speaker 2: 21:14

Now, what helps in this is that you have multiple people studying together and you're you're all following the same rules of interpretation, and that's really important, because if one person has their own set of rules for interpreting the bible remember, like approach one is intuitive, approach two is the pulling of ignorance, like if everyone's taking different approaches, then even if we get rid of our baggage, like this cultural and personal baggage that, with the biases that we have, we're still going to come up with different interpretations. So we need to be all using the same method and try our best to come to what the accurate interpretation is. Now, sometimes, sometimes a passage, there may be multiple viable interpretations and that means that maybe one there may not be one very clear interpretation, but maybe there's two or three options that this passage could mean this, because there's arguments to be made.

Speaker 2: 22:11

You know, someone could make an argument for option A, another one makes an argument for option B, another one for option c, and all three are are pretty strong arguments, and so at that point we just need to be humble and accept that our limitations as human beings and hope that we can find more information one day to help us elucidate that text but, we don't need to despair you know no, and you did and you did a great job with that tim in our in our series on spiritual warfare, where you explain in the Old Testament how a certain passage, some people think this about this, some people think this, and there are viable options.

Speaker 1: 22:49

So I think it's good to remind our audience about that, that there is one, but there are possible viable options from a passage as well.

Speaker 2: 22:59

Yeah, yeah, okay. So if you could think about this, think about this in terms of what's the relationship between God's word and then my biases as a human being, my subjectivity, let's say I bring subjective feelings and biases to the table. I obviously am reading the scriptures with these lenses, okay? So I'm not, I can't be completely objective, but I can be somewhat objective. It's capable, it's possible to be somewhat objective. So you think about this in terms of like a, a symbiotic relationship where, as I read God's word and I, I tried to be objective and find that meaning. The longer I do that, the more it shapes my pre-understanding and it can work out some of those biases. And then I keep studying God's word and it keeps reshaping my biases and my understandings. So the pre-understanding that I bring to the text keeps changing the more I study the scriptures. So there was a time when I was a young man and I didn't know a whole lot before I'd gone to Bible college, before I'd gone to seminary, I would read the Bible totally different.

Speaker 2: 24:08

Yeah, because my pre-understanding was totally different. But as I've studied for years and years and years, now when I come to the Bible my pre-understanding is very different and a lot of that has been shaped by the extensive study that I've done. So that method of study has worked out a lot of bad thinking or wrong thinking, I should say in me when it comes to understanding the Bible and your relationship with the Lord has matured throughout that process as well.

Speaker 2: 24:37

Yeah, yeah, ok.

Speaker 2: 24:37

So I talked about these three phases observation, interpretation, application. Let me give you these steps, so anyone who wants to maybe slow this down and write them down. These are called the five interpretive steps. This is in this book Grasping God's Word. The five interpretive steps are these Step one what did the text mean to the original audience?

Speaker 2: 24:59

Now, again, if Sam, if you're the Old Testament Israelite on the other side of the river, I'm asking what did this text mean to Sam? I got to find that out. So that's step one. What did the text mean to the original audience? Step two what are the differences between the biblical audience and me? So that's that river and me. So that's that river. That river could be really narrow or really wide depending on the distance, the cultural and historical differences between the original audience and me. So we've got to ask that question.

Speaker 2: 25:30

Step three how does the Old Testament or New Testament affect my understanding of the text? Now, that's a tricky one. If I'm reading the new testament, how does, how does my understanding of the old testament affect my understanding of the new testament? Because you like, for example, I can't read the gospels and understand who jesus is as the messiah without understanding the old testament and is Israel's expectation for the Messiah. Does that make sense? Yeah, and I can't read the Old Testament with if I'm a Christian, if I'm a New Testament Christian. I can't read the Old Testament with outside of the lens of being a New Testament Christian, like I can't read the prophecies of the Messiah in the Old Testament without seeing Jesus in those you know what.

Speaker 2: 26:19

I'm saying Yep, so we need to be aware of that. Like, how does our understanding of the New Testament and the Old Testament affect our reading of both? That's a little bit. There's all kinds of books written on that one.

Speaker 2: 26:31

But step four, what is the theological principle in this text? This is what we're really trying to get at is what's the? What's the true meaning of this text now? Um, it's, it's beyond the service, like, let's say, the principle of like moses hitting the rock. When god tells him he speaks to the rock, and water will come out and moses gets angry and hits the rock. The theological principle isn't hey, we shouldn't hit rocks, right, and clearly that's not the principle that we derive from that. Okay, but maybe the principle is something about obedience to god and not relying on our flesh or our own strength or the power that god, even the gifts and the powers that god has given us. There's some sort of moral principle at work there. Can there be multiple moral principles? Oh, yeah, there could be more than one. There could be more than one principle we derive. There's one meaning, but there could be multiple principles. Good, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:31

So Jeremiah 29, 11 is a famous one for this. Obviously, everyone knows what that passage is For. I know the plans I have for you, says lord. Plans to prosper you, not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future and yada, yada. Okay, instead of just ripping that out of its context and thinking, oh, that applies to me, god has a plan for my future, the principle of that passage we have to.

Speaker 2: 27:54

We have to do the work of understanding. That's written to a captive, the, an Israelite captive audience in Babylon, and God's telling them he has a plan for them, he has a plan for Israel. He plans to keep his promises to Israel and to bring them back into the land out of captivity. Last time I checked, I'm not living in captivity. So the principle there isn't that God's going to free me from captivity. The principle there is God keeps his word to his people and he loves his people. So how do I understand that as a New Testament Christian? Well, I have to understand that through my relationship with Christ. How does God love me now and what is God's plan for me? Through Christ? See the point.

Speaker 1: 28:42

And how do people misapply that verse, because I think that's what we were talking about.

Speaker 2: 28:47

Oh, they use it for prosperity gospel, prosperity, gospel, preaching Sometimes they'll just quote it as though God's going to deliver me from some bad thing that's in my life, as though I'm not going to have to go through a trial, I'm not going to have to go through a hardship or something.

Speaker 1: 29:06

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:07

Yeah, they just. It's just really shallow how people apply that verse.

Speaker 1: 29:10

Right, and I often see too that people Rather than hope and suffering.

Speaker 2: 29:13

Hope and suffering is the point of that passage.

Speaker 1: 29:15

Yeah, yeah, you know, and I often see that people will kind of mix in you know an old adage or some sort of wisdom from some philosopher and they'll try to tie it into. Okay, yeah, it means the same thing. They don't mean the same thing, right, but it could be the idea of, like, is it true that things will get better? Yeah, that's true, you know, but that's not what that passage is saying. Or, you know, is it true that you know there's good things ahead of you? Uh, yeah, maybe right, but we don't know how long that's going to be, or whatever the case is.

Speaker 2: 29:46

So, yeah, um, just the best is yet to come the what the best is yet to come, yeah yeah yeah, um, we shouldn't reduce the scriptures to pithy sayings either.

Speaker 2: 29:59

That really frosts me when people do that the ice cold seminarian comes out in me. Yeah, okay, so that was step four. What is the theological principle in the text? Step five, then, is how do I apply this theological principle today? Now, people just want to jump right to five without doing all that work, and that's where we go wrong. That's where we get the text wrong, that's where we that's how we wind up with really shallow sermons. We wind up with really shallow applications, and people wonder why is my faith not vibrant Like? Why does church seem boring? Why do Bible studies all seem boring and repetitive? Well, it's because we're shallow. We're not doing the work, mm. Hmm, you do the work, it's rewarding and it gets really interesting.

Speaker 1: 30:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:54

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:54

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:55

Yeah, so those are the interpretive steps. Let's, let's, let's go through an example. Mm, hmm, ok, yeah, so those are the interpretive steps. Let's go through an example. Okay, now this ties into our series on spiritual warfare, so those of you who have listened to that, you'll get some of this.

Speaker 2: 31:15

There's a really famous passage in Matthew 16. This is Matthew 16, 13 through 20, where Jesus says upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Okay, most people will recognize that reference. That is Matthew 16. The story is 16, 13 through 20. Okay, let me read this for you. I'll read it really quick and then we'll get into some of the interpretations.

Speaker 2: 31:40

Now Jesus came into the region of Caesarea, philippi. He was asking his disciples who do people say that the son of man is? And they said some say John the Baptist and others say Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. Then he gave the disciples strict orders that they were to tell no one that he was the Christ. Okay, so that's the story.

Speaker 2: 32:48

Now this passage has been used by the Roman Catholics, and I don't mean to offend any Catholics who might be listening, but this passage is the proof text for apostolic secession of the popes, linking their papal authority back to Peter. They argue that Peter was the first bishop of Rome and Jesus here is giving him all the authority and he's going to build his church on that, and so Peter's going to have the keys to the kingdom. This is where we get that cultural I don't know what you call it like, this cultural concept or myth that Peter's at the gates of heaven. When you die and you meet Peter at the gates of heaven, have you ever heard that phrase.

Speaker 2: 33:35

Yeah, yeah, it comes from this, really yeah. Yeah, because, yeah, it comes from this, it comes from Roman.

Speaker 2: 33:37

Catholicism, yeah, yeah, because Peter's supposed to have the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Okay, it's all wrong, right, okay, we won't get into the bishop of Rome history and all that stuff. There's other guys that have written in church history on that and why that's a problem. But the passage itself, building an entire theology on Peter being like the head of the church, essentially it's totally wrong, and I can show you how Protestants and Catholics have argued about this for a long time. What Jesus means by the rock? He says upon this rock, I will build my church, and they've argued that. Catholics will argue well, no, he says you are peter. And upon this rock, because peter means petros, it means little stone, okay, and so jesus is saying you're a little stone, but upon this rock, peter, I'm going to build my church. Okay, now protest, that's a catholic. Protestants will push back and say no, what Jesus is saying here, this rock? He's referring to the statement that Peter makes, that Peter says you are the Christ, the son of the living God. That is what Christ is going to build his church on that statement. Okay, who's right, who's correct here? Well, it will help if we know some of the background information, some information that has been not necessarily lost, but down like, uh, ignored and downplayed over the centuries, but now has come to light through um, historical, like archaeology and history. We've come to understand more about this passage, okay.

Speaker 2: 35:23

So let's take let's take this apart jesus. He says jesus um and his disciples. They were, they were at caesarea philippi. Okay, on that they were um, so they were kind of going on and about traveling around and they, they came to the region of Caesarea Philippi. Now, that is not incidental. It's not incidental that he gives that location. It's not like saying Sam stopped at McDonald's on the way to work. It's not like that. It'd be like Sam went to Washington DC to do something important. That's sort of what he's saying here.

Speaker 2: 36:02

Caesarea Philippi was a place where there was heavy amounts of pagan worship. This was a Gentile territory. So there's heavy amounts of pagan worship, lots of pagan temples, pagan rituals going on. This is that place, okay, so it's. It's a hotbed of neo-pagan, you know, greek and roman gods being worshiped, temples being built, sacrifices being made. This is where they are.

Speaker 2: 36:29

That's cesarea philippi, okay, so he's with his disciples and he and he asked him you know, who do you, who do people say the son of man is. Now. That son of man category is uh jesus's favorite title for himself. It comes from uh daniel, the book of daniel, where the son of man is god's regent on earth that brings the nations to heal under god's reign. Now we talked about that in the spiritual warfare episode, but it's important to remember here. So the son of man.

Speaker 2: 37:03

Jesus says I'm the son of man. Like who do you guys, who do, who do, who are people saying that I am? Basically he's testing his disciples. And they say well, you know some. Some say you're john the baptist, or some say you're elijah the second coming of elijah, say you're john the baptist, or some say you're elijah the second coming of elijah, or one of the other prophets, like jeremiah. And then jesus says to them well, but who do you? Say that I am. And then that's when peter responds you are the christ, the son of the living god, christ being a term called the anointed one, like the messiah that's coming. So the Messiah, the anointed one, that's the son of man, that's you, jesus, and he's like you are the son of the living God. That's another important phrase. So the archaeology let me back up here to this archaeology. So Caesarea Philippi. The region of Caesarea Philippi is north of the Sea of Galilee. If you can, picture a map in your head.

Speaker 2: 37:59

Those of you who are listening, because most of our audience is going to be listening, I'll share my screen. How about I share my screen? In case we ever put this up on video? Is that good?

Speaker 1: 38:10

I think, I Okay.

Speaker 2: 38:11

can you see that? Let me share it again.

Speaker 1: 38:13

Oh, there it is.

Speaker 2: 38:15

Okay, yeah, so Nice. So Caesarea Philippi is north of the Sea of Galilee.

Speaker 1: 38:22

That's where that is, that's where this event takes place.

Speaker 2: 38:25

Well, when Jesus says, upon this rock, I will build my church, he's making sort of a pun here, because in this region there was something called the rock. There was a huge rock formation called the rock. Wow, you know, shocker right. And this place was famous for something. It was famous for something called the gates of hell. Now you might be asking what in the world was the gates of hell? The gates of hell was this place that the pagans believed was the entrance to the underworld. It was the entrance to Hades. Now, why would they think that? Well, there used to be this pool there, this underground body of water.

Speaker 2: 39:16

Basically, and they would actually throw sacrifices into it, yeah, and the sacrifices would sink in this underwater cave. Basically, if you're looking at the screen, you'll see. In ancient times there were these shrines that were built in this location. There was a shrine to caesar, there was a shrine to, or a shrine to, pan, who was the son of zeus, and there was a temple of zeus that was constructed there as well, and then there was another thing called the dance, the dance floor of the sacred goats, which we don't have time to get into, but this is the first century when Jesus would have been there. These things would have been there too.

Speaker 2: 39:59

So at the rock, you have these temples one to the highest god in the pantheon, zeus, and another to his son, pan, and Pan was essentially lord of the dead, and the gates of hell was where dead people would go to the netherworld. That was the place where people would traverse to and fro. So when Jesus, this clues us into what Jesus might be saying here about upon this rock, is he referring to this location, the rock, or is he still referring to Peter himself or Peter's confession that you are the Christ, the son of the living God? So now we have three options of what Jesus might mean. So which one is it?

Speaker 1: 40:44

What's the right answer?

Speaker 2: 40:46

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:46

So my personal view is this that Jesus is talking about Peter's confession that you are the Christ, the son of the living God. That is what Jesus is going to build his church on, that statement, that truth. But he's linking it to the location where they're at. So you wouldn't understand that if you didn't have this archaeological evidence to go with it, we'd just be still stuck debating whether it was Peter or not. With it, we'd just be still stuck debating whether it was peter or not. But with this archaeological evidence we see, oh yeah, peter has nothing like peter, as the first pope has nothing to do with this passage at all. Jesus is going to the center of pagan worship in that region, to the place called the gates of hell, and he's saying okay, I'm gonna. He's like what? What you see here is that the greek and roman gods are they're, they're ruling the dead.

Speaker 2: 41:35

Things Like Pan is lord of the dead. There's lots of sexual immorality here. There's lots of idolatry here. Pan himself was sort of the goat, the goat god. He was the god of goats. He's sort of a goat figure Like. His depiction was like that of a goat. That's why you have this dance floor to the, to the sacred goats right there too.

Speaker 2: 41:58

So imagine this contrast, if you will. You have zeus and pan on one side. They're lord of, lord of the dead things, sexual immorality, idolatry, and the goat god. And then on the other side you have yahweh, the, the true God, the God, the living God. You have Jesus, who is the son of the living God. Pan is the son and Lord of the dead, and then you have Jesus, who is the son of the living God.

Speaker 2: 42:21

True worship will come through Jesus. So when he says upon this rock, here I'm going to build my church and the gates of hell are not going to prevail against it, what is he saying? Well, the gates of hell is the entrance to hades, it's the entrance to the place of the dead. The the verb there about does will not prevail. Um is saying that the gates of hell are not going to withstand my church. My church is going to be built and it's going to expand into the world, and the and even the gates of hell are not going to stop it. The gates of hell are not Picture like an army that's charging into a city and they're smashing down the gates. Jesus is coming to reverse the curse of sin and death, and he's going to defeat sin and death. So the gates of hell are not going to withstand his church. Wow, does that make?

Speaker 1: 43:18

sense yeah that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 43:20

It's definitely. I mean, you're doing what this episode was supposed to do, which is to understand how to study that passage, because you just taught me a lot of things that I did not see about that passage. In regards to that Because I was going to go with Peter's confession too just taught me a lot of things that I did not see about that passage. Um, in regards to that, because, yeah, I was going to go with peter's confession too, but now when you add the location and the context around that, I mean it just again just kind of broadens, uh, my perspective on that yeah, and I still think it's.

Speaker 2: 43:46

it's peter's confession is the core that jesus is referring to. He's contrasting the statement of his Messiahship. That is the rock, that's the true rock, and it's going to be built on that rock, which is the place of pagan worship and the gates of hell. So it's a contrast between the two. He's using an object lesson to teach them something and to show them something.

Speaker 2: 44:09

So once you understand that, then you can kind of see that this debate about Peter being the rock that the church is built on is just total bunk. It's totally absurd. Now, I know Catholics are going to get really mad at that, but hey bring a better argument. If you have a better argument to put forward, bring it, but that's what the evidence shows.

Speaker 1: 44:30

Yeah, yeah, so what does?

Speaker 2: 44:32

that mean for me? How do I apply that? How do we get there? Well, we understand. Like the church, he says the gates of hell are not going to withstand my church, so we have the power to go in and rescue people from the domain of darkness. That's what paul says. What happens is that we have been rescued from that domain, so when we evangelize, we also rescue people from that domain. We don't have to fear the enemy.

Speaker 1: 44:57

That's good, that's really good.

Speaker 2: 44:59

Okay, that's fine. We should probably wrap it up right there.

Speaker 1: 45:02

Yeah, no, that's great.

Speaker 2: 45:03

Any questions.

Speaker 1: 45:05

No, I mean, that was that last piece right there where what was, what would be the application, because the information, the observation, the interpretation was there. And okay, how does that influence or impact the person's life? And yeah, I mean very clear, very straightforward For those of you who are listening. Hopefully it was helpful to understand why we need to study scripture and why we need to do the work for it, and maybe next time I'll share a little bit about how that applies to the work that you do, whether it be as a counselor, a teacher. You know, maybe we could talk about that another time. But yeah, thanks for tuning in, guys. Do you have any final thoughts, tim?

Speaker 2: 45:41

I don't.

Speaker 1: 45:41

No, I talked too much, probably. No, you're good man, you're good, it was good stuff, good stuff, all right, guys. Well, go on and.