The Intersection of Sustainability and Agility with Maryse Meinen
May 29, 2024Episode 72
Mark Metze
Ever wondered how agile methodologies can intersect with sustainability to address some of the planet's most pressing challenges? Join us in this episode of The Agile Within with guest Maryse Meinen, Chief Philosopher, Sustainability and Product Development Enabler at Practical Agile.
We explore the vital role agilists can play in mitigating environmental impacts, particularly within the fast-growing IT sector. Maryse and I tackle the concept of climate anxiety, discussing how breaking down overwhelming issues into manageable tasks can make a significant difference, much like in software development. Through personal stories and reflections, we illustrate the power of persistence and the importance of making impactful, incremental changes. We also delve into the principle of YAGNI and its relevance to both software development and sustainability, advocating for a mindset of "enoughness".
By drawing on Stoic philosophy, we highlight the timeless wisdom of figures like Marcus Aurelius and the practical applications of their teachings for today’s leaders. Tune in for an enlightening conversation that bridges the realms of agility, sustainability, and the enduring insights of Stoicism.
Ever wondered how agile methodologies can intersect with sustainability to address some of the planet's most pressing challenges? Join us in this episode of The Agile Within with guest Maryse Meinen, Chief Philosopher, Sustainability and Product Development Enabler at Practical Agile.
We explore the vital role agilists can play in mitigating environmental impacts, particularly within the fast-growing IT sector. Maryse and I tackle the concept of climate anxiety, discussing how breaking down overwhelming issues into manageable tasks can make a significant difference, much like in software development. Through personal stories and reflections, we illustrate the power of persistence and the importance of making impactful, incremental changes. We also delve into the principle of YAGNI and its relevance to both software development and sustainability, advocating for a mindset of "enoughness".
By drawing on Stoic philosophy, we highlight the timeless wisdom of figures like Marcus Aurelius and the practical applications of their teachings for today’s leaders. Tune in for an enlightening conversation that bridges the realms of agility, sustainability, and the enduring insights of Stoicism.
Welcome to the Agile Within. I am your host, mark Metz. My mission for this podcast is to provide Agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections. My guests and I will share real-life stories from our Agile journeys, triumphs, blunders and everything in between, as well as the lessons that we have learned. So get pumped, get rocking. The Agile Within starts now. Well, welcome back everybody to the Agile Within. This is your host, as always, mark Metz. Our guest today is Marisa Meinen. Welcome, marisa.
Speaker 2:
Thank you, Mark. I'm very, very happy to be here.
Speaker 1:
Great to have you. So Marisa is from Leiden in the Netherlands, which is near Amsterdam. She is the Chief Philosopher, sustainability and Product development enabler at Practical Agile. She's also a cyclist. So, marisa, if we were coming to Leiden for one day, and one day only, what would you say we'd have to do?
Speaker 2:
Well, mark, I love this question and first of all, you'd be most welcome. So anyone dropping by to visit Leiden let me know. So I actually looked this up because I thought so what is a nice thing to visit if you come to Leiden? And then I noticed I live in the city center of Leiden and Leiden is a nice town anyway. It's got sweet little canals, it's a bit like Amsterdam, but then smaller and cozier. So it's definitely a recommendation anyway.
Speaker 2:
But just in the center, right around the corner from where I live, is the American Pilgrim Museum, and that's actually a small museum and it's dedicated to the Pilgrim Fathers. And these were the separatists, well, religious refugees who fled England and came to Amsterdam and after moved on to Leiden and who then a few years later, left Leiden by boat, which took them in the end to the Mayflower, and then the Mayflower undertook this journey to New England in 1620. The Mayflower undertook this journey to New England in 1620. And they actually, well, they were the sort of the first colonists of the United States and then later celebrating their harvest festival, which is the origin of what now is your Thanksgiving celebration. So if there is one thing you'd have to visit when in London. I'd say go and visit this cute little museum, the Pilgrim Fathers Museum. It's a very old building. It's a very cute little museum. You can see how they used to live. It's worthwhile. And then do a little walk around the city and it'll be all good.
Speaker 1:
Oh, that sounds wonderful. So my daughter is an architectural designer and she loves historical buildings, so I'll have to bring her with me and we'll have to come explore that, marisa.
Speaker 2:
That sounds charming. You'd be most welcome. Don't forget to visit me too.
Speaker 1:
Thanks for the warm welcome. Well, for today's episode, we're going to talk about the intersection of sustainability and agility. So, marisa, I know you're passionate about this topic For our listeners. Why don't you first start off and give us an explanation, perhaps a definition, of how you would define sustainability?
Speaker 2:
For a second there. I thought you were going to ask me to define agility, which I would find a really difficult question. Me to define agility, which I would find a really difficult question? Yeah, so sustainability? Well, there is a definition. It's one that the United Nations came up with, the Brundtland Commission in 1987. And that's usually a sound definition to start off with. And this definition of sustainability says it's meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. So what this basically says is well, we can make sure we have everything we actually need today, but we must also make sure that we leave the world in such a place, in such a state, that our next generations maybe our kids or other people from next generations that you care about can still make a decent living too, can make the choices they need to make. So, as far as definitions go, I'd say this is still a good one. And now, the thing with definitions always is that then you still don't know what that actually means. I mean, it sounds nice, but it doesn't really help you. So what that I usually refer to as well is United Nations also came up with sustainable development goals 17 goals by a lot of countries in the world actually almost all countries in the world goals to well, actually create a bit of a better place on this planet while we're at it.
Speaker 2:
17 goals spread out over different themes. Some of them are about peace an important goal, I'd say. Somehow we're not achieving it at the moment. Important goal, I'd say, somehow we're not achieving it at the moment. But other goals are centered around, well, what we usually say is people, planet and prosperity.
Speaker 2:
Now, planet is the part of sustainability people usually think about when you start talking about sustainability. They think about carbon emissions, they think about actions for the planet, for the climate. They think about carbon emissions. They think about actions for the planet, for the climate. Maybe they also think about pollution in the sea, all of which are really important goals to create, well, a planet that next generations could still inhabit. And they're centered around this planet, about the environment. But it's important to notice that I mentioned also people and prosperity, because the other sustainable development goals have themes that are far more about social sustainability, inclusion, diversity and inclusion, and it's also about prosperity, meaning we should share economic wealth throughout the planet in a more sustainable way, in a fairer way, so to speak. So that's not a definition, but more of an explanation so what I'm gathering is sustainability.
Speaker 1:
Sustainability really is the antithesis of selfishness and self-centeredness well, I like that.
Speaker 2:
That's quite a philosophical approach. Yeah, I think you could say that. Yeah, because it's about sharing well, the planet's wealth and everything it has, and more equally, whether it is economic wealth or well, let's say, privilege, or whether it's about, well, the the resources the planet provides us with be, it grain or or clean water or stuff like that. So yeah, I quite like that.
Speaker 1:
It's um so where my mind's going and if we and I'm kind of cutting to the chase a little bit on our topic about the intersection between sustainability and agility I'm thinking back about my days as a developer and thinking about the many times when I had to follow up work that was done by a consultant. And I don't want to paint a bad picture for all consultants, specifically all developer consultants, but many times if you were employed at the company, you really had to undo many of the shortcuts that a consultant did, because they knew they were going to write this system and in six months they were moving on to something else and they didn't have to maintain it. And I wonder if there's a parallel to that type of an attitude. And let's just say, the planet. You talked about the planet as being one of the three Ps of I'm going to do what's right for me and as far as people that come in behind me, that's their problem.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah. I think that's a wonderful perspective, mark. I think it is indeed about slowing down and not, let's say, it's also about the quality, really. So not cutting corners and saying like you, well, you have to do when you're a good developer, I'd say, you want to adhere to the quality that you deliver well, to your definition of done. If we talk scrummish and I'd say that would still be important that would also be important if we talk about the planet. I mean, we, we've come to, well, let's say, a consumption society where we buy stuff, we use it once and then we throw things out because we don't have to maintain them. There is no ops work involved. You could just as easily throw it out. Well, that gives a lot of well, not technical debt, but that in another sort of way, so planetary death. So actually the parallel works beautifully. Maybe we should swap around and I interview you and you get the smart answers. I love this, mark. Yeah, yeah, that's a great parallel. So how about?
Speaker 1:
people. Can you talk to us about that first, p and people, and where that comes into play with sustainability?
Speaker 2:
and people and where that comes into play with sustainability. Yeah, definitely, and I really love that you ask this question, because so often it's mostly about the planet and CO2 emissions, and especially when you talk about sustainability in IT product development, the discussion tends to sort of focus on how can we I don't know have our servers emit less CO2, which is really important and it's the first tangible thing teams and developers can do. So definitely do that. And there is so much more where you can see the connection, because in agility we say we strive for well, well, diverse and inclusive teams. We know that it's important to have different types of people in your team to get the best results, because people have different ways of handling challenges, they have different ways of solving problems, because they have different perspectives, different backgrounds. What have you? And that is, of course, exactly what social sustainability is also about. It's creating a bit of a better world, a better future, which is also good for us as human beings. It enlightens us and brings us more well, delight and insight if we have other people around, be it in a sustainability team or in an agile team. If you have this multiple perspectives, it will also be easier to basically build better products Because an example that has come up in many, many conference talks, so I'm stealing someone's wonderful example here.
Speaker 2:
This is not my own example, but there is this example of a what is it? A registration system where there is this Chinese person, or at least this person with a Chinese name, who has a name of two characters so it's, for example, wu and then the system says, no, it has to be longer than two characters and two letters, because that is what you know in in english and same as in dutch, we don't have last names. That is only two characters, only two letters. But if you have a diverse and inclusive team, so there is people from different backgrounds, it may be far easier that someone in the team says, hey, but you know that I have a Chinese grandmother, I don't know.
Speaker 2:
We need to make sure it also allows for names, last names, with only two characters. So I think diversity and inclusion as a part of social sustainability is an essential thing for agile teams to work with, because it will just help us build better products, apart from the fact that, of course, we're striving for a socially sustainable world as well. Yeah, the planet will take care of itself. We need to take care of the humans on this planet while we're at it.
Speaker 1:
So so that was a good discussion on people. How about planet? No-transcript.
Speaker 2:
Well, this is, I guess, the core of what we'll be chatting about today, Mark. So I love diving into the planetary bit. I think what is important to stress is that I can't tell you or our listeners what they should do if they want to focus on the planet part of sustainability, because there is so many things you could do, there are so many options, and what I think is important is that the planetary challenges for sustainability are quite similar to any problem we're trying to tackle in product development. So what did we do if we want to? Well, if we have the complex challenge of some feature in the software we're supposed to build, we try and understand the problem and then we come up with ideas for a possible solution. We experiment and then we see whether it works. We test it out. We have that feedback loop. Well, I don't have to tell you, and I definitely don't have to tell our listeners either. So what we do in agility is exactly what we need to do when it is about sustainability challenges, because these challenges are just as complex and unpredictable, just as VUCA as any regular software development problem challenge we're facing.
Speaker 2:
So what the? Well? The central point is me chatting with you apart from it being fun is that I think we as agilists are in the perfect position to make a difference, also when it comes to solving planetary challenges. To make a difference also when it comes to solving planetary challenges. It is a big polluting industry when it comes to the planetary challenges, and we always talk about flying and how bad flying is and it is, by the way but we tend to forget that IT is actually well faster growing and far more polluting industry as a whole than the aviation industry. So there is a lot technically, there is a lot we can do, and every little bit helps. But far more important is that I think, well, that what we that, exactly that what we do every day in tackling the challenges we have in the software development, it's exactly what we should apply in the sustainability realm.
Speaker 1:
So do what you always do and try and tackle the sustainability challenges on the way I have a friend and that friend had to step away for work for the day and you know, they said they had a panic attack For whatever reason. Maybe it was in the news, something they read, an article. Sustainability was on their mind and the condition of our planet and it just became an overwhelming cloud over their shoulder and on their head that they just could not stop obsessing about it and the result was a panic attack and just had to take time off from work. That's something that I can definitely see going, and if the problem is this big, is it even worth doing something?
Speaker 1:
And I think agility the way that we address software development and even outside of software development, but just delivering to customers is kind of the same thing. So if you think about this big, huge, massive system, you can really do a death spiral just thinking how in the world are we going to get all of this done? And just be overwhelmed and just be paralyzed from the fear until you start breaking things down and trying to do things in small increments that actually do add value. What are your thoughts there, marisa, and how you've applied it?
Speaker 2:
Well, to be honest, mark, I was just going to say no, that's exactly it. And I think that what your friend was experiencing is a real thing. I mean, climate anxiety is a serious thing. I suffer from moments that I think, oh, we're all doomed anyway. And then what helps me is, of course, exactly what you were describing is what we do every day when we refine our product backlogs, when we work through the items, our product backlog items, and try and build an increment, try and create that direct value.
Speaker 2:
One part of the thought on this would be well indeed, make it small, make it small, make it small. But our listeners, of course, all know that, and it's good that they apply it in their daily work, and it's also even more fabulous if they apply it in sustainability as well. And I also think there is another part to this answer well, the purpose of why I'm here, taking up your valuable time and of our listeners, and that has to do with that true sense of purpose I have around this topic, and that is actually very selfish. That is absolutely not for the common good and that's just for my own conscious. My own conscious is pretty dear to me and at one point I started wondering with this climate crisis going on around us, and I started thinking well, you know, we may all be doomed. If I have these moment of climate anxiety, I think, well, we'll all be doomed and it doesn't matter anymore what I do. So I feel helpless and, of course, I have the strategy of to make it small. Make it small. And there is another thing, because there is my own conscience and also, at one point, my daughter, or maybe my grandchildren, might ask me, might ask me hey, grandma, you know, in 2024, there was this peaking of the climate crisis. So what did you do? Did you sit back and relax? Or actually, what action did you take?
Speaker 2:
And then, when I realized that this could seriously be a question, I thought, well, from my own conscience, and actually quite egoistically put, if I want to provide my potential grandchildren or whoever in the next generations come after us, if they'll ask me this question, I want to be able to look in the mirror. I want to be able to look them in the eye and say, well, I did my best, I tried. I may fail, we might all be doomed, I don't know, but at least I want to go, you know, chin up and be well, at least say that I did what I could. So that's the moment I dust myself together. Not quite sure if you can say that in English, but anyway, I sort of collect myself again and get up from the sofa and think, well, you know, I'll make it small and start somewhere. Start somewhere that is right in front of me, something I can do, however small it can be, and then some days, I mean, getting up from the sofa is the achievement of the day, which is fine then.
Speaker 1:
I fully realize that sports analogies don't work for all of the listeners out there, but sports was very important to me growing up. Where that rings true as far as not giving up, I was the type of player that and I had plenty of these where my team may be getting beat very badly during a game and there's no hope of winning, but I feel like there is a higher purpose in mind and would still give just as much effort as if we were winning by 40 or losing by 40. That's just something that's kind of ingrained, at least in me, to have that sort of a that sort of an attitude, because it's more about my outlook to not give up. That's just me, and I see how you kind of applied that here. One way that I was going to mention is we talk about small, making things smaller and smaller and smaller, but there is an aspect of value as well, because we can focus on small changes that may not be very valuable.
Speaker 1:
One of the things I think about is that I try to be conscious about is not saying anything bad about Amazon, because I order lots of things off of Amazon Okay, let that be made clear. But what I try to do is be mindful of the returns. And it's easy because, let's say, for clothing or for fashion, hey, just order five different things and then send four back that you don't like and keep the one that you like best. That's very wasteful, just not only in the packaging that goes into return that, but you think about the transportation that's involved. So I really try to limit my returns that I make and not just take advantage of the system. Do I do returns? Of course I make returns. If something isn't what I envisioned it, yes I'm going to return it. But that's something that I feel like is small. It's a small mindset shift, but I feel like it's a small mindset shift but I feel like it has a lot of value to it?
Speaker 2:
it definitely does, and I wouldn't say that that's a small mindset shift, because that's actually a big step. If you're doing this and we're nicely tying this also into philosophy, because you introduced me as the chief philosopher, um, so I've been wondering where I could sneak that in, but this is actually quite well, let's say, a philosophical approach to what you need in life, and I guess that that is actually also a very sustainable approach that we should apply everywhere in our life. So that goes for returns of things you buy, but that also goes for the products we develop, be it software or other products.
Speaker 2:
I think it's a good idea if all of us well, let's say in the global north or the western countries if we become a little more conscious, a little more aware of the perpetual growth well, adagio, is that what you say, the growth paradigm?
Speaker 2:
Because we always seem to be focused on we need more, we need more clothes, we need more this, we need more than we need more. We need more clothes, we need more this, we need more that, we need more software, we need more products. Well, if you look at it from both a sustainability perspective and a philosophical perspective, maybe it is far better to look at what do I actually need. Is it enough what I have? Can I stop wanting more and not well designed to not need it? And I think, well, you say it's only a small thing, but I think this mindset shift is actually a big thing and, to be quite honest, it might be one of the things that, in the end, if we aren't doomed and we'll get saved, this might be the big systemic change we need. Stop wanting everything we think we need.
Speaker 1:
There's a software principle. I think it comes from software called Yagni. You're not going to need it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, mark, you've now spoiled. I'm going to do a keynote talk on sustainability for software developers and the title is Yagni for software developers, and the title is Yagni. This is beautiful, exactly, and software developers know these things. You know you ain't going to need it, so don't just don't do it, don't develop it, stop it. Stop it already. And that's also why the agile principle about simplicity is my favorite principle, the art of maximizing the work not done, and I think that is that is the big mindset shift that we need to make all of us boy.
Speaker 1:
Simplicity is really something that is a lost art yeah in the world today, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely I'm going across domains and all principles. This is a way of life. Need a bigger house, need a bigger car? Yeah, need more money. Need a bigger bank account, need more furniture, whatever it, just for those of us in the States, you know, that's kind of the mindset, right.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, absolutely yeah, and this is where I think, where it comes in that I introduce myself as chief philosopher. I'm self-employedoic. Philosophy and Stoicism at its core is around well, a few virtues, but the real basic idea is that you have to be content with what is around you. It's what the Stoics call amor fati, which means as much as love of your fate, and that doesn't necessarily mean you need to be well thrilled if you end up being well, let's say, in a war or in a bad situation, but it does mean that you need to accept the situation you're in, be content with what it is, and then see how you choose, how you respond to it.
Speaker 2:
So the Stoic philosophy has taught me well what a friend of mine, anjali Leon, recently called enoughness, and I'm stealing her term here. This enoughness is a basic idea of Stoicism and can be applied well in the art of simplicity, but also in the art of saving the planet, saving the world, really In the sustainability realm. We need to think more about enoughness. Do I really need this or is it okay with what I have? Can I make do with what I have, even if it's maybe not the biggest house, not the biggest? What have you? But is it enough for the basic needs I have? And I think it was Gandhi who once said that this world has enough for everybody's need, but not for everybody's greed. So that kind of sums it up. It's not only Stoics who thought in these lines. Obviously there's other wonderful, beautiful people who came up with the same ideas.
Speaker 1:
So Stoics aren't just a bunch of old Greek men that have no expressions on their face, no matter whether they're happy, sad, mad, whatever.
Speaker 2:
Well, it saddens me to say that. Well, the few really well-known Stoics are men. They would be Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus and Seneca. So there are three, all men. It's an ancient philosophy, although these days we've got Martha Nussbaum and a few really famous women that are also Stoics. So definitely not only men.
Speaker 2:
But, of course, what you're mostly pointing at is, well, no hidden and no emotions. Well, what the Stoics say is that you always have a choice. A lot of things are opinion, so whether it's something is wrong or bad or hurtful is something of your own mind, your own choice. Events happen and it's up to you to decide how you respond to them. So the Stoics tend to well, they strive for this. Well, let's say, emotional balance, in the sense that you can decide how you react to it. However, all of these Stoics, all of them, marcus Aurelius wrote down in his diary he has his Meditations, which is his most famous book, and he's written down often and often, how well, for example, annoyed he was by things. So Stoics are real people with real feelings and real emotions, and we're always trying to remember that you always have a choice in how you respond to them. But they were very well aware that they couldn't always manage.
Speaker 1:
I like the parallels that we can make with agile leaders about deciding how you're going to respond and not just always letting others choose, because the way they may talk to you, it really is a choice for you on how you are going to respond. It's not always easy, right.
Speaker 2:
No, no. And for me, what I also like about Stoicism, and I like how you point out that it's a useful philosophy for leaders also because it's very practical. People have this idea about philosophers that they I don't know they walk in the park or they sit on a bench or they I don't know they write in the diary every day and that's all they do. They endlessly talk about I don't know the importance of concepts, theoretical concepts or words, and the Stoics were people very much in the center of life.
Speaker 2:
I already mentioned Marcus Aurelius, who was a Roman emperor. He was actually one of the last great emperors. He had a vast empire to run, he had enough on his mind and he's still known as the philosopher king because he stuck to his philosophy and he was in the middle of life and a philosopher at the same time. So Stoic philosophy is a very practical philosophy. It's not about talking endlessly about words, it's about actually being a better person. That's also a famous quote by Marcus Aurelius, who says let's stop talking about how to be a good man. Be one.
Speaker 2:
Now as a woman and as a feminist. Of course, I'd like to make that a version of let's stop talking about being good human, just be one. But that is important. It's not about the talking about things, it's about doing things in real life. It's no use secluding you somewhere up in the mountains in a secluded mountain hut. You live your life right in the middle of everything.
Speaker 2:
Well, in the case of Marcus Aurelius and of Seneca in the middle of Rome in their turbulent times, of Seneca in the middle of Rome in their turbulent times, and still find time to pick your own path, make your own choices, try and not be too influenced by others and do not be influenced by the idea of power or money, because another famous quote from the Stoics is momentum mori, which I guess you and many listeners will know remember to die. Now, that sounds very I don't know morbid, but it's actually not meant that way. What they meant is well, remember, you know we will all return to dust before you know it. None of it is of great importance. Don't think you're bigger than anyone else. We're all returning to dust anyway. So that is a sensible thing to remember in this whole agility and sustainability realm. Try and do your best with the things that are right in front of you and make it small and actually do something. Don't talk about it. Do it, however small it is wellisa.
Speaker 1:
I think that is a wonderful note for us to end on and really brings to mind a lot of empiricism of making decisions on facts. So, marcus Aurelius I couldn't imagine him having a five-year plan that he spent a year on to develop for the Roman Empire. Right, he wouldn't have gone to that length, and I don't just for us. It probably doesn't make sense for us to do over planning as well for things when we know they're going to change as we live in a, in a vuca world as you say.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, definitely yeah so, marisa, if our listeners out there want to get in touch with you, find out how they can engage with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Speaker 2:
Well, we've been talking about agility and sustainability and how you can weave these together.
Speaker 2:
And I was also telling you about my stoic philosophy, and that's a practical philosophy, so I do put well, this is an awkward expression, but put my money where my mouth is. So I try and reduce my digital footprint. So I'm hardly anywhere, but I am, however, on LinkedIn with my first and my last name, marisa Mainer, and then people will find me or can find me and reach out. So I'd be happy to connect with people and answer questions, things that might come up.
Speaker 1:
Great. We'll add that to the show notes so people will have that link available. Marisa, it's been a delight having you on the show. I really appreciate you meeting with us talking about the intersection of sustainability and agility today.
Speaker 2:
Yeah well, thank you, mark. Thank you for having me and thank you for indulging me and talking about all the topics that I like so much Agility, sustainability and a bit of philosophy. So thank you.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely Okay, everybody. We're going to put a wrap on it here today. It's been another episode of the Agile Within. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Agile Within. If you haven't already, please join our LinkedIn page to stay in touch. Just search for the Agile Within and please spread the word with your friends and colleagues Until next time. This has been your host, mark Metz.