Help Yourself!
A Philosophical Banquet - Campus Food and the Whirlwind of Chaos
Ever been tempted by the delectable allure of a college dining hall, or wondered if chaos is actually the secret to an unexpected order in life? We sure have! On this riveting episode of "Food and Philosophy with Bryan and Nick," we turn our culinary and philosophical lens onto the often-overlooked world of campus dining and grapple with the strange dance between order and chaos in our lives.
Starting off with our own experiences - Bryan's encounter with a sour cherry sparkling drink and Nick's four-meal binge at Jet's Pizza - we get candid about college food, the infamous 'Freshman 15,' and the unexpected adventures that come with dorm dining. But it's not all about food! We also delve into the tumultuous yet intriguing relationship between chaos and order, drawing references from the movie "Stranger Than Fiction," and even exploring how the pillars of self-esteem can shape our response to unpredictability.
Finally, we strip back the layers of subjectivity around chaos and order. We unpack how the pursuit of order can sometimes spiral into chaos, and how the unpredictability of chaos can, paradoxically, give us a sense of control. Using the lens of technology, we look at how platforms like TikTok can be a catalyst for chaos. We end the episode by embracing the chaos that life throws at us, contemplating over an enlightening article that provides 12 reasons to do so, and mull over the importance of taking action and creating healthy self-narratives. Embark on this ponderous journey with us as we navigate the chaotic yet delicious world of food and philosophy!
Ever been tempted by the delectable allure of a college dining hall, or wondered if chaos is actually the secret to an unexpected order in life? We sure have! On this riveting episode of "Food and Philosophy with Bryan and Nick," we turn our culinary and philosophical lens onto the often-overlooked world of campus dining and grapple with the strange dance between order and chaos in our lives.
Starting off with our own experiences - Bryan's encounter with a sour cherry sparkling drink and Nick's four-meal binge at Jet's Pizza - we get candid about college food, the infamous 'Freshman 15,' and the unexpected adventures that come with dorm dining. But it's not all about food! We also delve into the tumultuous yet intriguing relationship between chaos and order, drawing references from the movie "Stranger Than Fiction," and even exploring how the pillars of self-esteem can shape our response to unpredictability.
Finally, we strip back the layers of subjectivity around chaos and order. We unpack how the pursuit of order can sometimes spiral into chaos, and how the unpredictability of chaos can, paradoxically, give us a sense of control. Using the lens of technology, we look at how platforms like TikTok can be a catalyst for chaos. We end the episode by embracing the chaos that life throws at us, contemplating over an enlightening article that provides 12 reasons to do so, and mull over the importance of taking action and creating healthy self-narratives. Embark on this ponderous journey with us as we navigate the chaotic yet delicious world of food and philosophy!
Welcome to Help Yourself. Food and Philosophy with Brian and Nick. I'm Nick and I'm Brian. What always follows chaos? Brian Elos. Elos comes after chaos.
Speaker 2:Which eaten. That's an alphabet joke. It has to be funny to be a joke. So an alphabet make you think.
Speaker 1:What do you mean?
Speaker 2:So I have been in a dorm room for the past like five days. I like moved back into college.
Speaker 1:Isn't it like a Rodney Dangerfield movie? Yeah, it's like back to school, or Happy Gilmore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or there was the other Adam Sandler, one Billy Madison Billy.
Speaker 1:That's the one. Yeah, he has to go back to school.
Speaker 2:Happy Gilmore is the Gulf one, anyway. So I moved back. I've been eating all week, so I didn't eat very much today. But I will say that it's a little crazy when you just have meals. I know how Nick lives now, because just having meals served up for you just here's your food it's like I ate a plethora of things over the last week, though, it was like it was actually pretty decent food.
Speaker 2:It wasn't, I mean, it was still sort of cafeteria-ish. But every day they had a couple different selections. And the hard part is like I could I now realize why everybody gains weight when they go to college? Because it's like, literally, you're not even hungry. You just feel like you just ate breakfast and they're like, yeah, you ready for lunch? And you're like, man, that lunch was good. Hey, you want to have dinner. It's like 8, 12, and 5 and it's like all regimented and you got an hour to eat and you got to get in there and you got to get your stuff and it's like man, I am like full, still Pack it in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they had, like I said, they had quite a few good things. Each day they had different stuff and some of it was like college food grilled cheese sandwiches and tater tots and curly fries and hot dogs and things like that.
Speaker 2:But then they also had like well then they also had like mashed potatoes and, like you know, the one day, one day was like they had pulled pork sandwiches, one day was like mashed potatoes and like the cool thing is they always had a salad bar there and they always had veggies and stuff like that, so you could actually eat pretty good. And so, yeah, it was exciting. I think I'll say it. Let's see what was my favorite. I mean, all the parents were like, well, two things they had cereal dispensers that you could have for breakfast and like, and you could have cereal and milk. And all the parents were like dude, I never eat cereal milk, I'm eating cereal milk every morning. So they'd like eat, eat, eat. And so the people listening know I was chaperoning my children's band camp for the week and that's where it was. It was like a sleepover camp at a college campus.
Speaker 1:So basically, Is that why they call it a campus?
Speaker 2:Right exactly. It was really weird doing Zoom calls in like a cinder block room. I had to explain to my clients that I wasn't in prison, you know.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it feels like prison.
Speaker 2:Why is your room have cinder block walls? Where are you? It's like, well, I'm not in prison, I'm not in a minimum security prison, you know so. But no, they had grilled cheese sandwiches that were really good, and they had. I'm trying to think there was another one that was like, oh, what was it? They just had like a bunch of stuff. They had like Italian meatball sandwiches one day. They were all made up.
Speaker 2:You can just grab them, and yeah. So I gained the freshman 15 in a week. So Wow, yeah. And then Brian's beverage corner is a little lacking too. I have my water bottle. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I've talked about this company before Green. This is a sour cherry. Let's see Where's it. There you go. It's a sour, sparkling, sparkling sour cherry and I think the last one that I drank of this company. I didn't like very much, but this is actually pretty good it's. It's got a little bit of effervescence to it and it's a little bit of. I said, what am I? It's a little bit tart. You know tart cherry kind of drink.
Speaker 1:It's sour. Well, the question is.
Speaker 2:It does only have 10% sour cherry juice and no caffeine and only 20 calories for the scan. So, so good to go. So for all those people who are really disappointed, I'm going to get hate mail now because I only did two things in Brian's beverage corner, you know.
Speaker 1:but yeah, well, hey, hate mail is better than no mail.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:What about you? What are you eating? I broke a four meal, fast a couple hours ago and I. I gorged, I binged it. It was so satisfying. We went to Jet's Pizza. Oh all out. We've got. We got a four slice personal pizza. I'll go into the ingredients in a moment. Also got the cheese bread turbo cheese bread. This is from Jet's Pizza. Yeah, you have that in your area. For the it was the turbo bread, which is like three different kinds of cheese and butter, and yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1:And then I had sesame stuff added to it, the sesame flavorizing the crust, yeah. So I had maybe like three of those got their boneless wings. Mm, hmm. It's the sweet chili sauce on it. I've never tried it before. There's some spice, some heat, and now my pizza is a cali. I always, I always. I call it California crust, but it's cauliflower crust.
Speaker 2:Oh, California crust.
Speaker 1:And it, yeah, I keep doing that because I have an order that I saved and I was being clever and I was like the the cauliflower dream or cauliflower and dream or something like that order, and now I say it wrong half the time because but it's that kind of crust and no tomato sauce.
Speaker 2:Oh, so just like all the toppings.
Speaker 1:So I got sauce, just no tomato sauce.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, what sauce Ranch? Okay, so you the base layer of ranch. That's actually a good move. It is so good, yeah, so you don't you don't need to dip it in ranch, Like I usually dip my pizza in ranch. But then you don't need to do that.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and and I have it. It was like the same pizza I get every time. That's one of the ways I know I'm an old man, or I change it when I have to. Okay. At first, back when jets had chorizo as a meat topping. Oh yeah. And I would choose that and the trimmings I would select would would be onions, mushrooms and green peppers, and it was. It was like my breakfast burrito pizza. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But they, as you might imagine, chorizo is kind of a an obscure selection and they didn't get enough demand. So they dropped that and I started using either Italian sausage or hamburger. I just sort of flip back and forth, Usually doing Italian sausage, though cause I want that ethnic, at least an ethnic. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I'll. But I'll also put that light. I'll put a light bit of a sweet chili sauce on there too to ensure there's some heat flavorized crust for for some heat. It's really good and I ate half of that. I ate all the all but one chicken bite, whatever you call it, cause Dory wanted some. It was really good, granted. I'm coming off of it fast. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I ate half of the pizza. I'm stuffed now yeah. Even though I skipped four meals prior, like that's enough food to get stuffed. Yeah, I'm also really, really thirsty.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's salty, I know Everything is like all your all the water just soaked up Like just you're like oh gosh, so I'm drinking a bunch of water.
Speaker 1:I have I've had two night, two tall nitros today, though Okay, so the morning I had it black to order the fast, cause the first meal today was the fourth one that I skipped. Yeah, yeah. And then, as I'm breaking the fast, I got a tall with extra sweet cream. Oh, you doubled that. Yeah, it's like bring back the calories, but but I've had like two, I've had it black. Now two, three times in the past, say seven days, or seven visits to Starbucks. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if? If I want some more flavor but not a lot more calories, I have half of a Mountain Dew Code Red to sip from, if that's need arises that is awesome, but fun fact you know so fun fact about Jets Ranch dressing is I got a recipe to make it at home, right, uh-oh?
Speaker 2:Uh-huh. Guess what one of the main ingredients is? Yeah.
Speaker 1:You could just substitute for Tzatziki sauce and it's just as good. You told me that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, somewhat, yeah, you can, you can but the ranch, they're, ranch, they're all cold call mix.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But there I've made their ranch before and I've gotten it almost exactly Like I looked up. Jets Ranch dressing recipe and. I got it like almost exactly on. I was like yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and one thing I'm looking forward to, though, to put on my pizza as soon as it's available, is ground antelope. Like not ground is in antelope that live on the ground. There aren't antelope at fly, but antelope that's been ground up.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:As a pizza topping.
Speaker 2:That would be a little gamey yeah. But I am a gamer, so there you go, I bet you, though I. What's weird is I bet you that if there was some Pete one pizza place that just started doing something like totally off the wall, like that, that it would be like there would be a bunch of people that would get oh yeah, have you tried the? Have you tried the antelope pizza at Jets, dude, you got to get the antelope pizza.
Speaker 1:It's a part of their endangered animal series. Right. Exactly, I doubt, antelope. I'm sure there's some you know breed or whatever antelope that's endangered, so that that's where that joke comes from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, dude, jets is, jets is good. I was actually just having a conversation today that was someone, though, that didn't like Jets because they were from New Jersey, and they were like, oh, they were like big New York pizza people, and so they were like, oh no, I'm not, I don't eat Jets now because it's Detroit style. For those of you don't know, detroit style is like square and it's thick and stuff like that. They do have regular round pizzas there, but I don't know, I think they're known for their Detroit style.
Speaker 1:Yeah, their cauliflower is a thin crust round. Right. So they they're not exclusively Detroit for sure Right.
Speaker 2:Well, that sounds like we're ready to go into our topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that would give us some significance. All right yeah you seem a little frantic.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't know where I go next. It's a little bit, I don't know you could go crazy.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'd still call you Superman.
Speaker 2:I feel like. I feel like this whole thing is going off the rails. It's out of control.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, if you want, if it's easier, we can start with J-OS. Before we get to chaos, let's go sequentially.
Speaker 2:J-OS. That's actually good. If I had another child, I would name them J-OS. Why did your parents name you J-OS? Well, it was right before chaos.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's our topic right. We've had different experiences, with some chaos here and there, along with perspective that it's not all that chaotic. They're kind of like first world bouts with chaos. Right.
Speaker 1:You and I have talked about the yin and yang, or yin, yang I don't know. Are you supposed to say the and or not? Whatever, it's a good question. What is the and and the symbol? Is it the line between them? I don't know what color is the line between the black and the white. Maybe it's just yin and yang, but it's the duality right, the dichotomy, the first dichotomy that occurred to mankind. Whether you're talking about philosophy or religion or whatever, there's light and dark, good and evil.
Speaker 2:Dark night, cold, weak, passive light day, hot, strong fire good bad. According to this, it says you can say yin and yang yin yang meaning all one word, or yin yang with a dash in the middle of it. Oh, because I say yin, dash, yin, yeah, as if you're dictating into a dictating machine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm very dictatorial like that. But yeah, I mean, if you want to go for a power cord, then we would have a good topic around chaos.
Speaker 2:Go for a power cord. I don't even know what you're talking about right now.
Speaker 1:There's an element of randomness to what I have to say.
Speaker 2:Well, so we are, yeah, so chaos versus order.
Speaker 1:Okay, here we're both struggling. One of the reasons we're struggling is we've actually already recorded an episode about this topic. We went a full hour together enjoying our conversation. Thought we were going to give it to the audience on a silver platter and it was so good.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know.
Speaker 1:And we made the mistake of talking about order first. Chaos had a thing to say about that and only Brian. Maybe like 1% of what I said was recorded. The rest of it was all Brian talking to himself.
Speaker 2:That's right, which is normal, you know.
Speaker 1:but yeah, the two times I got to talk. No, it wasn't that bad at all. We're good, and even what was the other piece of this? So, yeah, and we were talking about the benefits of order, right, and the plan was the next record. We're going to talk about the benefits of chaos.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I guess chaos thinks we should have talked about the benefits of chaos first.
Speaker 2:So here we are. Yeah, we were trying to do a really neatly tidy hey, we're going to talk about order and then let's talk about the exact opposite of that, but then also put it into the yin yang there's always a little chaos in order and there's always a little order in chaos, right, yeah, and especially in Boston. Right.
Speaker 2:Even nowhere to go. I feel like I'm missing things. I feel like I feel like I'm not part of the same conversation. So I think what we're doing today is. I say I think what we're doing today is talking about chaos, and first of all, we're creating some chaos right now, but second of all, we're determining whether or not chaos has a place in your life. And why would you want that? You know it's like.
Speaker 1:Well, was it? A variety is the spice of life and I do wonder like assuming, let's just pretend that's true, I think it's true, true enough how do you get variety if everything's in order, if everything's planned and set to an agenda? Yeah, has a rubric, a right and a wrong answer, like how do you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that it would be. If you, well, it's like, it's like if everything wasn't an orderly fashion, if everything was there, it would be sort of just like okay, like I mean, and I feel like there are times in your life that are more chaotic and times in your life that are more orderly, and maybe I'll break it down like this. I was at first, I was trying to say in my head.
Speaker 2:I was thinking well, you wouldn't want chaos because chaos is more stressful. But I know there's a lot of chaos in your life and I think that's what I'm trying to say. Chaos is more stressful, but I know there's probably quite a few people who live pretty orderly lives. That are still stressed right.
Speaker 2:So it's not a matter of yeah, it's not a matter of stress, it's not a matter of you know, like you could know everything that you need to do about your job and all of the things, but you're, you know, you're still gonna, you still experience that. So then that didn't work in my head. I couldn't figure. I was like, no, well, that's, it's not a it's not a stress thing and I'm reminded of the movie Stranger Than Fiction.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you saw it and I don't want to boil too much. It's Will Ferrell is in it and it's. It's funny but it's fairly serious, especially for Will Ferrell. This, without spoiling anything the short of it is is that Will Ferrell's character is actually a character written by an author. Okay, and he somehow exists in real life and whenever she writes stuff it happens to him. Okay.
Speaker 1:We both live in the same universe, right? Yeah, yeah, but it's like what she writes influences his life and he's an accountant and like lives by a various set pattern. He counts the number of seconds he spends on each tooth and he has a very set itinerary. He gets to the bus exactly the same time every morning and you know. But then little did he know. And it's about how like his plans change thanks to the author and things happen and he has to learn new stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, and that's. That's actually sort of I don't know. That's sort of what I mean, and maybe we'll release that other episode as like a, as a bonus at some point, but painful bonus. Yeah pain, if you can stand it, but that I feel like that's a direction that I would like to take. It is that that you learn from chaos. You learn new skills, you learn new, you know how to deal with.
Speaker 2:I mean even stress, like is you learn how to deal with that and then you may. You may end up having skills that you didn't know that you were going to have, because you've been dealing with a certain amount of chaos in your life.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we. I know in our failed episode we talked a bit about comfort zone. Right Like order is almost the quintessential comfort zone. Right. You know what to expect. There's no surprises. You know you're no risk of any dangers. Yeah. Also kind of boring, and then to throw in another movie reference you get. You can get busy living or get busy dying. Right With Chauchek Redemption there's, there's always. There's no static right. It's either progress or regress and I think that's another duality that's represented in Ian and Yang. There's active and passive. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Active is dying, it's decaying. You know walls will crumble Thanks to chaos. Yeah, Like if. If you don't, if you don't seek the chaos, chaos will find you. And better, better to meet chaos in your own terms than to be surprised by it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's. I'm glad you said that that way because, as you know, from my last week I did a table topics answer and I talked about this is that one of my favorite movies is castaway, and castaway talks exactly about this. It talks. It talks about I mean it it. The story basically is you know, chuck Nolan, you know Tom Hanks character is thrust into something that he had no control over. You know spoiler alert plane crashes and he ends up they're banned and not. I mean he ends up on a desert island or not desert island, just on an island as a castaway, stranded as a castaway right, and ends up staying there four years and and then sort of the reveal of, like, what he learned while he was on the island didn't doesn't come until later, when he gets back into society, like when they find him and he gets back again. Sorry if it's spoiler alert, but it's a really old movie, so if you haven't seen it by now, then sorry, but he gets back into society and then give you an idea.
Speaker 2:He has the opportunity to like reflect, and here's the weird thing is, you could even look at that, as he went from a very chaotic environment, you know, an environment in which he had very little control, back to what people would consider civilized society, and you know, you feel like there's less chaos because there's more things in your control, right? And the interesting thing was that in the movie he actually like tries to commit suicide on the island because he's like I can't take all. In essence, I'm, I'm like putting a lot of my own, like theorizing in this. He, he couldn't stand the chaos anymore, so he tried to take control, do something that was in his control, which is, hey, I can kill myself, and because it's I, I have control over how that happens. When it happens, where it happens, he has control over everything. When he has control over nothing else on the island, right, and? And then when he tried to do that, he couldn't like.
Speaker 2:You know, sort of like you were saying, like will Ferrell's character had very specific things. He also was like well, I had to test the limb because I didn't want to like Jump off the cliff and hang myself and then the limb breaks and I fall down and I have a broken ankle and I just have to lay there and die and be in pain, you know. So I'm gonna test the limb. So he found a log that was about the size of him, about that weight of him, and he threw it off and it broke the limb. And so when he says it, like later in the movie, he says, yeah, even I couldn't even do that, like I wanted to do that, and I couldn't even do that, and so chaos was still, like reigning supreme, right, yeah? And so I, I like sort of futile.
Speaker 2:I feel like, if you think that you can control chaos, if you think that you can somehow like organize or, you know, systematize or do something that controls chaos, I think you're, you're joking, I mean, you're fooling yourself. You're, you're, you're trying to avoid something that can't be avoided, right, you're fooling yourself instead of helping yourself, right? Exactly, booya, oh, but that I mean it's, I Think that's the I Dwell and I, oh, maybe I should, maybe I could bring up my, my temporary tattoo that I had on my arm, like sure it's faded now it's completely gone but it.
Speaker 2:The temporary tattoo was like a picture of mountains and it said within it it was a cursive. Cursive writing it says find, find comfort in the chaos and.
Speaker 2:That's sort of crazy, that it actually goes with what we're talking about and in that you can use chaos to your advantage, right, you can understand that things aren't in your control, but it's gonna be okay and and if you can find comfort in that, then it doesn't cause you as much stress when something happens that you're like wow, I didn't know that was gonna happen today, or you know anything like that. It's, it's you know.
Speaker 1:Well, and this is speaking a bit to our temperament, you know we're both Nine peacekeepers. Yeah and the Enneagram in our own way and I found that I Don't need to be in control, unless I feel like no one else has things under control.
Speaker 2:Oh, got it yeah.
Speaker 1:I didn't ever want to get into leadership until I was being led by somebody who wasn't a good leader. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I realized, like the pain that that can cause for people. Yeah, you know. So it's like I realized like there are times where, in order to keep the peace, I've got to step up, speak up, or in order for there to be peace, yeah. They. I think. The other aspect of that, though, is and I'm challenging myself as much as anyone listening when I offer this idea is Do things have to be and coming back to your quote or your tattoo, do things have to be under control For there to be peace?
Speaker 1:right a peep keeper to keep peace. Yeah, um, do things have to be in control or can there be peace and chaos?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there can and I think that. But I also think it goes back to, you know, we. I think we've talked about this book in the past, but it was the six pillars of self-esteem. Yes, yeah and so. So, um, I'm trying to remember who it was by Six pillars.
Speaker 1:I'll look at that, you look at anyway six pillars of self-esteem.
Speaker 2:The person that wrote that they and I don't know why I forgot who was- Nathaniel Brandon. Nathaniel Brandon. Anyway, also, nathaniel Brandon, fun fact used to date. The person that did the. They Know I'm gonna completely like. I don't care. Okay, anyway, no one else cares anyway, nobody was gonna be a fun fact, though. Anyway, it's the chaos episode. Man, I could do whatever I want.
Speaker 1:This is a disaster.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know it's perfect anyway, the way that Nathaniel Brandon define self-esteem, was you you feeling like you have the ability to handle the items that will, or you know the things that will come at you in our everyday life, or I'm paraphrasing, of course, but but I feel like that's how you. I Feel like self-esteem plays a role here like, so are you the kind of person that wakes up in the morning that says, yeah, no matter what happens in my control or out of my control, I feel comfortable that I can handle it. Or are you somebody who wakes up in the morning going, oh my god, what happens is something happens that I can't, I can't control and I don't know what to do? And well, you're clearly. You have some kind of a thing where you're like you don't feel equipped To handle something that comes at you.
Speaker 2:You know whether it be chaotic or orderly, right, and I guess I'm sort of Putting that in predictable or unpredictable. You know terms like you wake up in the morning, you don't know where your day is gonna take you. You have a general idea like, yeah, I'm gonna go to work and I'm gonna do all these things, but you don't know exactly everything that's gonna happen on any given day, and you know a certain, a certain amount of people wake up in the morning and drive to work and they have a fender bender on the highway. Well, they didn't wake up thinking today's the day I'm gonna have a fender bender you know oh it's, it's not, you know it.
Speaker 2:But then again also, do you feel like if that happened, you'd be like okay, well, I guess that's happening today. I mean, and I Feel like that's part of it, you know, yeah, I think experience Plays a part in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your first fender bender ever, the first time you have to pull over on the side of the road, right, you hit someone or were hit by someone, like that's Very chaotic, even if you've trained for it, you know there's, there's a little experience that Isn't there that you could rest on. Yeah, or normally so it's. I'm not somehow. I think, and and I guess it's just another point towards comfort zone, right, like familiarity and comfort and Control, like the more familiar something is, the more it feels like it's under control.
Speaker 1:Yeah the more used to you are, to the idea or to the situation right. I don't know. I think like there's people who will go on business trips all the time and the chaos of the airport is Is comfort for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't get those people. Yeah, honestly, like I see them when I'm traveling, like when I'm going on vacation, and I'm like stressed that I'm going on vacation Because I just like crap. What am I forgetting? What's gonna happen to our luggage? Are we gonna get, are we gonna make the plane, are we gonna like? All these things are going through my head and they go through on a Weekly basis and they're just like it's a nor like it's. They're just no stress.
Speaker 1:Well, it's because they know I Guess I kind of notice about disconnecting. It's because they know what to expect. Yeah. They know Enough to know that whatever they're not expecting, they can handle right. Making a point to check my settings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, I think that I mean, I think that's right. And, by the way it was, it was ayn Rand that Nathaniel Brandon Was, I think, married to.
Speaker 1:I.
Speaker 2:Think it was let me see no partner in love. I don't know. It doesn't say I see. I see a picture of them together. It looks like they were in a wedding gear, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:Well, I have a fairly alkaline question to ask. Alkaline mm-hmm. Is chaos synonymous with random or Vice versa.
Speaker 2:Like I mean, I think that I I feel like it has to do with context. That's why I keep on going back and forth, because we're using examples that are, you know, that are like unpredictable slash, random slash.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm just trying to come up with a different, different definition, but I feel yeah, I think there are actually very few things that are random, right like, like there's a reason, although maybe we need to find random, we need to find chaos. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:We're just starting that. We're starting that now, I know, wouldn't it be great?
Speaker 1:if order intervened in this episode like.
Speaker 2:Maybe we should define the word we're talking about.
Speaker 1:As you're. I'm guessing you're looking that up now I am. Yeah, I'm reminded of get smart and yeah to the powers that be that we're competing against each other were Chaos and control? Uh-huh? Yeah, they were both supposed to like acronyms of something Like it was K, a, os, right, and I think even control. I think control was spelled with the C.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it also this might give us some. This might give us some insight. So Chaos wow, there's plural now in his chaos is how can you have more than one? I don't know that's really really crazy anyway man, that's an episode under itself. So that the the number one definition is complete disorder and confusion.
Speaker 1:Disorder. Oh so it's defined by what. It's not great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but in the here's the thing. So this has a Bunch of things that are similar, like similar words. Let's see disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion may have Mayhem up he Entropy. Entropy is one of them.
Speaker 1:Oh, I brought that up in our field, I know, I know.
Speaker 2:But then the next one is behavior. So this is. It says it's pertaining to physics. Basically behavior, so unpredictable as to appear random. We were just asking is it random? And we were talking about it so in terms of physics and okay, all of that is subjective. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I know right, and it's unpredictable until it's not. You know what I mean. Like, think about this. Let's say you, you, you, you, you witness some kind of scientific anomaly, and then you, and then you're, you're like, wow, that's weird, we've never seen that before. And then you do, you study more and you're like, oh, that was always happening. We just didn't know. We did, for we didn't have the right equipment or whatever.
Speaker 1:So the first thing happens once every thousand years, right.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. It seems chaotic, but or unpredictable, but it actually is predictable, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think what's interesting with it being subjective, there there are people in power who make changes right could bring things more in order. Right principally, or at least according to them, from their perspective, yeah. But if you aren't expecting it, right, you know their order is your chaos. They're, they're, they're making things make more sense for themselves or their constituents, or you know the, the average of the populace, but you, in that case, might not be that average.
Speaker 1:Yeah so it doesn't. Might not make sense to you at first, because it's like I would have never thought of that. I'm not a jerk, so yeah, or whatever. Whatever it is like you know you, you might project your assessment onto it and Vice versa. Right like I, I Me, I've been doing some tidying, so like I've actually been pursuing some order in my life right Every 15 minutes every day for the past 20 ish days as of this recording. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I've spent at least 15 minutes tidying, decluttering and Inadvertently that's created some chaos For Dory, yeah, like I've been, I've gotten to the point where I'm consistent enough that she's starting to feel pressure For her to do the same thing, even though she didn't make that conscious commitment. But she's like you know, her comfort zone is sort of being shifted a bit On account of that. That's, that's. I don't know, maybe not a perfect example, but I think. I think it lands just. It'd be a seven out of ten. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's that's an interesting point, because when you put order, so does chaos look more chaotic when it's placed right next to order.
Speaker 1:So, like I mean, I think there's something to that. I think there's a reason that in the, the yin yang symbol, there are degrees right. Right, like if you could Take, take the curve and like, flatten it out, mm-hmm. It would be like a spectrum where there's just, you know, there's always a little bit of of chaos and order. There's always a little bit of Order and chaos but as one diminishes, the other increases. Yeah, and it is all relative.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well and that's but. But what if it's relative? Relative to what? Relative to whatever is being assessed?
Speaker 1:like relative is relative, like if I'm Like if I was just talking about me and Dory, right, so it's relative or related to each other. Relevant Related yeah, relevant to each other is yeah, that like between the two of us, while I'm creating order, increasing my order. I'm reducing my chaos, but right, she's in proximity to me, I'm. Hopefully not as much as I'm increasing order, I am somewhat increasing her chaos, right that? We're all kind of connected right.
Speaker 1:So like, the more, the more influence and power you have. Um comparison, I don't know, kate. If I was pursuing chaos it seems to me that I would be creating more chaos for much more chaos for others, then you know, creating order for others, right, right, um, I guess that's a loophole in my thinking.
Speaker 2:If you were pursuing chaos. Yeah, I mean, I feel like, I mean I'm just talking, like thinking out loud, I feel like chaos has a bigger wake than order and you know. By that I mean if you're somebody who spreads chaos or just like you know doing stuff like that, then you're going to people are going to get pulled into that, like people around you, like as an example let's just take a simple example like a waiting in line at the supermarket and you're just like not doing it right, like you're not all the.
Speaker 1:You're like talking to total strangers, Brian.
Speaker 2:Like all the social experiments, you know where they're. Like don't face the wrong direction and don't like all the stuff. And you're doing all that right. Everybody else is, even if it's just like a slight level of discomfort, because you're like, what the heck is this person doing? Like unlike orderliness, like if everyone stands in line and they're all standing in the same direction and then everyone moves forward and everyone moves forward. Then you're not like most people aren't being affected by that, or are they?
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, I think it is. It almost gives itself a cheap and easy sense of power, right, Like I think we're talking about the wake, like how to say so if I wanted to build a storage shed, that's easily four or five figures in today's economy, right, it might be tens of ten, thirty thousand dollars. Right. At the minimum, like fifteen hundred dollars. If I wanted to cheat, let's just do. Let's just say fifteen hundred dollars. Okay.
Speaker 1:It would take me fifteen hundred dollars of material and labor to get a rickety or whatever, a cheap metal shed built. Yeah, uh-huh, and time right Like weeks or at least days of time. Right. How much does it cost in time, money and effort to destroy that shed, to introduce chaos to that order?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Like five bucks. Yeah, you know I could probably go to the garage, mix a few chemicals and you know, have a show, a very short show, blow it up, so it's like chaos is cheap and easy to create where the order is not Well.
Speaker 2:I think that's like this is going to sound. It's going to make me sound like an old man, which is fine, you know. But but isn't aren't all the like short three second videos, I mean not three second, like you know, twenty second videos on TikTok. Aren't those all about chaos? Like, aren't those all about like, oh, let's see what kind of reaction we can get from this person by doing this thing. Like very few of them are like creating order.
Speaker 2:Right, it's, it's you're, you're trying to find yourself doing something out of the ordinary, or you know novel. Yeah Right, and in hopes that people are going to watch that. And then again, then there's like a cycle of like now that person did that and now we got to like be even more not novel in order to get to, you know, whatever you know, in order to get more attention.
Speaker 2:And then that, okay, now that person's pushed the limit there, now we got to do something else. So then you got crazy videos of people doing stupid stuff, because it's just like it's exponential, because there's like millions of people creating these videos and they're they all want to be seen. You know, it's like two people recording a podcast that want to be heard and nobody's listening.
Speaker 1:Because it's not click bait. We're not going through that that is true, yeah. We're just talking and bantering, interrupting each other. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's very wet, it is very. Yeah, that's that's a good word for it. That's a good word.
Speaker 1:Would would would windowsil be a better word for it?
Speaker 2:Windowsil wet. You know all kinds of yeah, anything in that, anything that are as disassociated to those two as those two words.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is it? Um, yeah, I've done a pretty good job of putting these, this randomizer thing. We should probably talk about that before we run out of time. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're probably wondering why Nick has been saying random words throughout this and why I've been like stumbling across them.
Speaker 1:because, yeah, yeah, I've not used them all, but yeah, antelope, was it disaster, preposterous loophole, alkaline. Frantic actuary right. Perth against wet power cord windowsil. I haven't yet said guacamole, but now I have. Oh, I said Boston. Yeah, boston was one of them. Pseudonym disaster nah, I did that. It didn't do subtle or generosity, but yeah, there's a. There's a test you can take. We should put a link to it on the comments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Divergent association.
Speaker 1:Yes, the divergent association task and, if you want, to.
Speaker 2:If you want to, you can click the button that says your results will be part of, like this, the control group or whatever. Not the control group, but the, the research, the research, and so that millions of people have taken this test, and it will. You know, it's very simple. It only takes like three minutes, so go do it, it's really fun. And it doesn't take much brain power either, because it's just coming up with 10 words, that's it.
Speaker 1:Yep, and I'll throw down a little challenge. When I took it I was in the 95th, something like the 95th percentile. Yeah. And so I basically played the game with myself again to make these random words. It was a lot of fun. It makes me feel creative. That and puns are the way in which I am creative.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fantastic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but yeah, it's a. And then I just threw the list into one of those random, not random one of those free spin wheel type applications on the web to randomly select the words and find a way to inject them to the meeting.
Speaker 2:But I can't see it. So he was just saying these things. Yeah, a lot of them were real. I was like I really thought you wanted antelope pizza. I was like really, I mean, I would probably try it. That's how much my brain wants to order I'm like. Well, he must have meant to say that I mean I'm trying to justify it.
Speaker 1:Why would he lie? Why would he lie to me?
Speaker 2:Well, I did look up. I guess one of the main points or one of the things we wanted to talk about is in this order versus chaos thing is obviously we talked about at the beginning, but like, or at least mentioned. It is like do you want chaos in your life? Well, I think there's two questions for me. So one question is I think we've already answered, which is can you live a life without chaos? And I believe the answer to that is no, right. But then the next question is should you invite chaos? And you know what I mean. Like, how do you like, should you? You know, I did pull up an article that was like let's see what this is called Grateful Living and it's talking about. Well, the title of it is 12 Reasons to Embrace Chaos and Move Forward in Life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I just find comfort.
Speaker 1:I guess that's how you find you got a hug. You got a hug. Chaos. Before you can get comfortable with chaos. To be comforted by chaos.
Speaker 2:This is interesting. The first line in this article is accept, accept, like not accept. Accept A-C-C-E-P-T, accept whatever, accept don't overthink and move forward because and then it has the 12 items. So I'm thinking interesting that they use overthink in there, because, yeah, you can go in circles with that. Anyway, the first one is just very, very straightforward accepting the, accepting the chaos of life is better than trying to fight it, which is what we already talked about, is again sort of like tattoo, If you can find comfort in the chaos or you can be like yeah, I understand, there's going to be uncertainty. The other thing this article will give us is some of the things we've been struggling with, which is like sort of the definition of chaos. I mean, obviously this is just the article, this article.
Speaker 1:This is one guy, but we're just talking about unpredictability and uncertainty.
Speaker 2:So number two is you cannot predict the future. So to basically try to think that you can, try to think that you can create some kind of order in your life such that you won't have any curveballs thrown at you is just futile right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one aspect of that would be we from Seneca. We suffer more in imagination than we do in reality. Yes. If you try to predict the future and anticipate, all the angles. You're basically living in all possible futures, and that's a lot of effort, that's a lot of stress, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's also that that you know that also says to me like that that article is I mean not that article. That quote is is that you always think of, like your brain is a worst case scenario, kind of thing, like because for self preservation, your brain is like well, what if this happens? And rarely does the worst case scenario? That's why it's called the worst case scenario. Rarely does the worst case scenario come to fruition right.
Speaker 1:It's at the tail of the bell curve of possible Right.
Speaker 2:But your brain is like yeah, but what if you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but what if? Yeah? So you're saying it's a chance, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Statistics don't mean anything when it comes to that, like worst case scenario, thinking, you know. And then this number three on this is you will feel better doing, you'll, you know, feel better doing than not doing. So you know, basically, you know, it's saying you're, you know.
Speaker 1:What is? What is his premise again? Cause now it sounds like he's just talking about overthinking in general.
Speaker 2:No, this is taking a step forward in any direction makes you feel like you have some level of control. So like it doesn't, it doesn't matter. So like what he's saying is like, embrace your. You need to embrace the chaos, but you also need to say like, hey, if the chaos comes, I'm just going to go do something.
Speaker 1:And I think that's, that's what we do, right those we we bring order to the chaos. Yeah, yeah. Right, and and, and. If you are just sitting there being afraid of chaos, then it's only going to grow. It's up to us to rebuild the crumbling wall. It's up to us, to you know, make sense of the thing that just happened, that, you know, seemed random.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Otherwise chaos will grow. Entropy will grow with unfettered yeah.
Speaker 2:Number five is one I skipped one, but number five is one that I was talking about before, which is in order to get, so the title of it is you will become a better person faster, stronger, leaner and sharper. So that's the thing about chaos is. And going back to like what I was talking about before, which is if you have in your mind, like, okay, you know what, I know that I will persevere, like, and I think it, I think the reason why it it is hard, because it, you know it comes with age, because the more events and bad I want to say bad things, but things that you've gone through that are unpredictable and you've, you've made it through it, you've like, hey, I've survived. That you know. You have the sense of like, well, that happened to me. So you know, it's like the little sign that I look at on on my desk and says it could be worse, like so you know anything that you've gone through.
Speaker 2:You've weathered that storm right.
Speaker 1:Yes, but I think I think that's because that's a healthy self narrative you've developed for that Well of course there are plenty of people who have survived the exact same situation that tell themselves I never want to have anything to do with that ever again. I barely survived that. I don't think I could ever do that again. I don't know how I got through it, right? Oh sure no.
Speaker 2:I, well, I, and obviously it's like the same scenario, but what I'm saying is there's there's a sense of, there's a sense of strength of like that was the worst thing I could think of at the time, and I'm still alive, I'm still breathing, I'm still everything's you know yeah. So you have a sense of, like it's self-esteem. I mean, it's a sense of I now have a tool that many people don't have. It's because I survived that situation, you know.
Speaker 1:Another thing that makes me think of is wicked versus kind learning environments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember you talked about that on our one of our education episodes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, well, I'll keep it brief.
Speaker 2:You didn't talk about it. You didn't talk about it very much, you just mentioned it.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll just mention it again. We'll save it for a full episode sometime, but like just a quick example, is basketball players who practice three point shots, for instance from various angles or while moving, while not moving, while leaning one way, leaning the other way In a game have a much higher hit rate than those who practice just the three point shot or the two point shot like any of those, the free throws because they're creating a more wicked or diverse environment to learn in to develop and they're creating a more chaotic situation so that they can win in the wild.
Speaker 1:in the real scenario, they're more adapted to it, they're more adept as opposed to the simple, the routine, the orderly kind of practice.
Speaker 2:So I skipped a few more. But like number 12 is like, this is the final one here. Is he just entitled, this person just entitled? Going with the flow is a lot of fun. And the guy says. The person author says I used to be this type a order loving, hyper stressed guy. And he still is, but by learning to take action, you know, he says still, I still am sort of but then, he's like life is good.
Speaker 2:Sure, it's hard, but it's still good and can be so much fun or so much more fun if you go with the flow. So, basically, again like knowing that you're not going to be able to avoid it and so it's going to be spontaneity and or unpredictability and or other things, like I think the key to it is like not seeing, I mean, based on this. It's like it's not seeing chaos as a negative, and I think that's the connotation that many people have is like oh my gosh, chaos. That's like it's chaotic, yeah, you know, but seeing it as part of everything else and just going Okay, well, this is this is what life is Like. Life is part chaos, like you know, and it's like here's the example like I used to sit in traffic for 24 hours every week when I lived in Los Angeles, right, oh so like I had a different mental picture at first.
Speaker 1:I imagine he's an Indian style, like on a curbs.
Speaker 2:Sitting in traffic. Yeah, traffic, yeah, that was my fun game. I would sit in traffic. Hey, talk about chaos, man Woo.
Speaker 1:I couldn't say cross leg, I shouldn't say Indian style with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well we got you.
Speaker 1:We got it.
Speaker 2:So, but the point is I was in my car, in mostly traffic, for 24 hours every week, right and so in that, in that circumstance, I could be angry about that, I could be like every day, like Ah, why is?
Speaker 2:this traffic is so stupid and I could just be angry with it. I'm talking about just this isn't necessarily chaotic, but it's going with. The flow is Okay. Well, I just accepted yeah, exactly, I just accepted that I was going to be sitting in traffic and, as most people did, you learn how to? You learn how to do things like, use that time like I did. I basically did everything in my car. I studied, I ate meals in my car. I, you know, listen to books on tape, I listen to talk radio, I listen to comedians. I, you know, I I had stuff to do because I knew I was going to be there. So, instead of just being angry all the time and saying like, ah, this, I can't believe, I have to sit in this traffic again, it's like, yeah, it's going to happen again tomorrow too, you know so.
Speaker 2:So you, are you just going to be angry all the time? Are you just going to be like, okay, well, this is what it is. What? How can I, like, make this semi okay? You?
Speaker 1:know I'm prepared. Right, it's a paid. Yeah, yeah. Good stuff, all right, yeah, I think. I do think, though, that part of that yin and yang is that too much order makes us bored, and we will. Yeah. See chaos and vice versa, right. Too much chaos will give us lots of stress and we'll naturally to bring order.
Speaker 2:I think it's like a pendulum, like I think it's more like a cycle slash spiral. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:Whenever I envision the yin and yang symbol, I animate it in my head as going around in a circle. Oh yeah. And I'm just some at some line there and the thing is moving. Yeah. Spinning around that middle axis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was that was a chaotic episode.
Speaker 1:But at least we recorded it.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll see when I get we recorded it.
Speaker 1:Rick ordered.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, exactly, it's painful. All right, next time we'll talk about order, maybe, or something, maybe, I don't know. Oh, yeah. You'll have to tune in for the unpredictable nature of help yourself. All right, bye.