Have you ever received a message that felt like it was sent from heaven? Our heartfelt discussion with Dave Roberts delves into this new world of AI and Grief Tech, where the bereaved find solace in AI-generated messages from those they've lost. We navigate the complexities and comforts of these services, balancing the poignant act of memorializing loved ones with the authenticity of such connections.
As Dave and I wade through the ethical landscape of AI, we ponder the implications for those who seek solace in technology due to isolation or bereavement. The conversation touches on topics like the importance of consent and the introduction timing of Grief Tech. We provide guidance, discussing the delicate balance of integrating technology with traditional coping mechanisms and the significance of cybersecurity in protecting the sacred memories of our loved ones.
Have you ever received a message that felt like it was sent from heaven? Our heartfelt discussion with Dave Roberts delves into this new world of AI and Grief Tech, where the bereaved find solace in AI-generated messages from those they've lost. We navigate the complexities and comforts of these services, balancing the poignant act of memorializing loved ones with the authenticity of such connections.
As Dave and I wade through the ethical landscape of AI, we ponder the implications for those who seek solace in technology due to isolation or bereavement. The conversation touches on topics like the importance of consent and the introduction timing of Grief Tech. We provide guidance, discussing the delicate balance of integrating technology with traditional coping mechanisms and the significance of cybersecurity in protecting the sacred memories of our loved ones.
The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.
Stephanie:
Welcome to As I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is. We're glad you joined us today. We know how hard it is to lose someone you love and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us. We created this podcast to provide you with comfort, knowledge and support. We are grief advocates, not professionals, not licensed therapists. We are YOU.
Kathy:
Hi everyone, Welcome back again to another episode of As I Live and Grieve.
Dave:
Here we are again.
Kathy:
Yep, we always have these great topics, don't we? And before we get started, I just want to quickly remind you, if you haven't already on Facebook, pop over to the page As I Live and Grieve and join it. Follow it. Right now we're talking about grief myths. Join us. Follow it. Right now we're talking about some of the myths of grief and, pretty soon coming up, we're going to talk about what it means to be an orphaned adult, when you are an adult and you lose a parent to death. So some great things happening over there. Pop on over With me today is Dave Roberts. He was on the podcast before and maybe you remember him because we were talking about continuing bonds. In some ways, we're going to continue that discussion today, but with a very different and new technological perspective. That being said, hi, Dave, thanks for joining me today.
Dave:
Kathy, thanks for having me back. I always enjoy our conversations.
Kathy:
Absolutely. Whether we're on the air or off the air, we have some great discussions Today. I think it's going to be amazing and very eye-opening. So before we get started, though, would you just remind our listeners a little bit of your background, please? Who is Dave Roberts?
Dave:
Well, who I am depends on the category I happen to be in at any particular time, but just to give you a brief overview, I'm an Adjunct Professor of Psychology, Child Life and Health Studies at Utica University. Among the courses I teach are Care of the Human Spirit and Death, Dying and Bereavement. I've also been a workshop presenter. I've been a keynote speaker. I'm an author. I co-authored in 2021, When the Psychology Professor Met the Minister with Reverend Patty Furino, which talks about in detail the spiritually transformative experience I had after my daughter, Janine, transitioned in 2021. And, among other things you know about how psychology and spirituality can interact to help individuals embrace a different perspective after a loss and the importance of critical thinking. I'm a podcaster. I have my own podcast which is going to be a year old the end of March, the Teaching Journeys podcast, and Kathy's been a guest on that as well too, and we're going to have to have you back for a return engagement. Yeah.
Kathy:
I'd love to. Maybe we can continue a discussion on this topic, who knows?
Dave:
Absolutely, Absolutely. So that's me in a very brief nutshell, and you know there's obviously more categories and more layers, but that's kind of the condensed version for your audience, Kathy.
Kathy:
It's a great summary. Thank you, and thanks again for being here. We're going to talk about something that, in the field of technology, is called Grief Tech. This topic came to me in an article a friend of mine sent in January and, as I mentioned in the intro, it does kind of connect with continuing bonds.
Kathy:
One of the things I hear frequently from almost every person who's grieving is oh, what I wouldn't give for a signal, a message, something, just something to let me know that we're still connected, something, anything. So imagine for a moment if you got an email from your late spouse that said, " my dearest love. I know that my physical presence is no longer with you, but please know that my love for you remains the same, wherever I am now. Know that I'm always watching over you and protecting you. Our love will continue to endure and I will always watching over you and protecting you. Our love will continue to endure and I will always be a part of your heart. I will forever be grateful for the time we spent together and I will never forget the love and happiness you brought into my life. Please take care of yourself and always remember that I love you, man. That would mean so much to so many people, man, that would mean so much to so many people.
Kathy:
But this is a special kind of message, Dave. It wasn't written by a spirit, it wasn't sent by a spirit. It was written by a computer, a computer program, using a technology called Artificial Intelligence, or AI. So what I want to talk about today is the fact that there are now companies out there using artificial intelligence to craft messages that seem to come from our departed loved ones. And when you hire them for this service, and you do have to pay for it, most of it's reasonably priced, I will say but then you will get messages routinely and, depending on the service they will ask for, either they will have you complete a questionnaire giving, divulging personal information, so that they would use your name and your departed loved one's name, they might talk about places you travel to.
Kathy:
It all depends on what information you give them. They will then feed into the system and craft what could be very personal messages so that you feel connected to your dead one, again crafted by a computer. And I'm going to start out before I turn the mic over to you, Dave, and I'm going to say the very definition of artificial intelligence is ARTIFICIAL = NOT REAL. What are your thoughts on this?
Dave:
Well, as we were talking off prior to recording, there's a lot of legitimate and practical uses for artificial intelligence, for the podcast editing program that we both use. There's a lot of AI features that really make especially for you know, if you're a one-person operation, that allow basically the AI features that our program has to allow us to really basically have a program manager to help us write YouTube summaries, help us write summaries of the script a variety of different things, and I think in that it could be effective. I think it's also a polarizing topic in a lot of different levels. AI can be certainly misused. It could be probably hacked. It could be, if AI is used without somebody's permission or is used to you know, like, for example, somebody other side of the family hired a company to do kind of a profile or feed information about a person's loved one, and that person got an email was provided and that email address was provided and that information or routine emails facilitating continued bonds were sent, it becomes intrusive and exploitive. So that's one of the things that is a concern for me. On the flip side, there's a yin, there's a yang, or a yang. There's a yin, For what this does is. I think, for a lot of individuals who need that routine reassurance that their loved one is around and the continued bonds are around, it is a very good tool for that to happen. The other thing I like is I think there are some companies that will also interview individuals prior to end of life and the person can at any time interact with that deceased loved one's avatar and ask them questions about their life based on what questions were fed. The thing I like about that is that that history of that person is preserved. So for other family members who are born into that family, as they don't know the family history, I think it's a great tool for that to occur. It's as if the person is talking to them and it recreates that.
Dave:
However - there's always a however. If it is used without permission of the family or if the person is not ready to, is not at a place in their grief where they want to hear, like an artificial version of that person's voice, that person's face, that person's mannerisms, it could be very intrusive and it should be. And those are the things. Plus for me, I kind of like to balance out technology with you know, like you know, saying a prayer to have my loved one's presence be known to me, creating a specific ritual, that or activity that will allow me to connect with my loved one. The thing that I think, the other thing that I thought about just as we were talking if we rely so much on technology to create that bond and let's say it doesn't happen. Say we don't get an email for two or three months we begin to start thinking, w hen are we going to get another sign?
Dave:
And one of the things that we I don't think we should rely on technology all that much where we don't exercise our free will to say I want to develop that bond on my own, I want to reach out. Relationships are two ways, whether they're relationships with spirit, relationships in the physical world. It takes two to tango. I can wait for a sign from my loved one, or I can set the stage where I ask for a sign and create some type of activity where I'm sensing their presence and finding peace, because I think, all in all, our loved ones want to maintain a relationship with us, but they want us to exert the effort to maintain that relationship as well, and I think that's where AI and Grief Tech can fall short. If we rely too much on that then it takes away our free will to create those bonds that I think empower us to work through our grief. So those are just some of the things that came into my head, Kathy.
Kathy:
And those are great thoughts and I had so many comments along the way, but I'll try to capsulize them. So, if we rely so heavily on AI because it's convenient and something you can buy, so something you I mean you have a contract with this company so you can be assured that you're going to get a message once a week or once a month or whatever you pay for. Could we miss a true signal, because our mind isn't kind of waiting for that?
Dave:
I think we could and I think, because of the fact that we have empowered another organization to create those bonds for us, we may not exert that same effort or intention.
Dave:
Well, we're going to get a sign, we're going to get something, and, let's say, technology breaks down and we don't get that sign, particularly around a specific milestone day, such as a holiday, such as a death anniversary or angelversary" day, and we're waiting for this message and we don't get it because there's an issue with their server, there's an issue with their platform and all of a sudden, you know, we become disappointed, we become disillusioned and we start questioning.
Dave:
You know we can, and that in and of itself, that type of dependence, and particularly when a company, through no fault of their own, doesn't deliver, we get thrown into the shadow grief again, to the initial stage of raw, painful grief because we didn't get the sign that we're expecting. I've always told my students balance technology with good, old-fashioned human connection, and it's the same when we're talking about continued bonds. We can rely on technology to an extent, but balance that with the human connection that empowers us to work through our grief and gets that balance between relying on support from from others or from other companies that could that could provide the technology to facilitate continued bonds, and also that we are, you know, it's a balance between that and empowering ourselves to work through our grief by creating those connections ourselves. So I think it's that, that healthy balance that I think will work. Yes.
Kathy:
Now, on a personal note, I have to say I had, you know, on the news and wherever you hear AI, artificial intelligence, and I just kind of disregarded it. But okay, it's part of technology, you know, I just didn't pay attention to it and this is maybe a year ago, even that it first kind of came into my brain and I was traveling with my daughter, actually, and we were going to a workshop and one of the sessions was going to be on using artificial intelligence to create content like Facebook posts, blogs, things like that, and I thought, oh gosh, I don't want to go to this presentation without knowing a little bit more about AI. So in the car, while my daughter is driving, I brought up probably the most common AI application, Chat GPT.
Dave:
Yep.
Kathy:
ChatGPT. An d I started to play with it. Now, ChatGPT, you can give it five ingredients you have in your refrigerator and ask it what you should have for dinner that night, and within seconds it will whip off a list of dishes and give you the recipes. So then I tried something else. So then I tried something else. Within seconds, poof, there's the information. I was literally blown away by the capacity of ChatGPT to respond to this. So, joking around, I started a conversation with the application and immediately was struck by the thought that, wow, if somebody is like totally disabled and can't leave their home and they have no family, so they have very little support, maybe a nurse comes in every other day or something they could have a friend in this application they could talk to this person.
Dave:
Absolutely.
Kathy:
But you have to remember it's not a person. So the reason I mention that is because it let me see that there could in fact be some applications that would be helpful to have AI, maybe for a student that needs tutoring. Perfect, because there's so much information in there, because there's so much information in there.
Dave:
Well, when you look at the Grief Tech, you know for an individual let's say, a person who's experienced the death of their spouse and they've been together 56, 57 years, right, and they have no other family or they have no other friends Something like what the Grief Tech companies do to recreate avatars of the individual's transitioned loved ones or deceased loved ones, or to actually, you know, recreate it an interview that was done, that a person could just ask a specific question about that person's life and interact.
Dave:
It's a great tool. But I think one of the things in the article that you mentioned you know one of the one of this was Dr David Spiegel. This was in the New York Times article. He said he's the Associate Chair of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford School of Medicine. He said the crucial thing is keeping a realistic perspective of what it is that you're examining, that it's not the this person is still alive, communicating with you, but that you're revisiting what they left and that's the thing to be aware of with you, but that you're revisiting what they left and that's the thing to be aware of. If a person is still grappling with the surrealness of death and they could use AI and they're still. They could just say well, wait a minute, maybe my person is actually still alive, and what it does is I think it could, depending on when that's introduced, could prevent them from moving forward and integrating their grief and coming to terms with the reality of death.
Dave:
So I think, ethically, we need to - not only there needs to be permission to have that from the family members and also from the person who is a subject of that of the AI technology or who's going to be that avatar that the family is going to interview with. Not only permission from that, from them, but it's also in terms of permission from the surviving family members in terms of okay, when do you want to hear this, when do you want to introduce this? The corollary I can give you is I have a DVD of my daughter, Janine's, Last Christmas.
Kathy:
Yes.
Dave:
Okay, and it took me several years before I could look at that DVD. Now if somebody had introduced that to me and said, look, I want to watch the DVD, let's do this, I would have had to say no, and if they had insisted, I would have considered that to be an invasion of my own privacy and also an infringement on my free will to say no. So it's not only ethically to get the necessary permissions, but it's also timing and when to introduce that and to allow the person who is grieving to drive the bus on Wednesday. When that gets introduced and how it gets introduced.
Kathy:
Absolutely. One of the other things you kind of mentioned was how some companies probably might and I truly believe that well, if they haven't already they're probably considering it spoken with someone who's near the end of life and kind of discussed and arranged with them before their death for some type of service to take place. And it reminded me of those videos that sometimes people nearing the end of life will make for their family as a final goodbye or something like that. And I thought, in that respect, to have this person who could, this computer person, identity, the sentient being, I guess, is how they like to speak about it in tech.
Kathy:
That identity could interact. That would be useful perhaps when the children are small. If mommy or daddy or grandma or grandpa dies, that at some point as the child grows they could get to know who that person was. Yep Again you need to be very, very careful because, again, artificial, it is not real.
Dave:
That's right.
Kathy:
It is a simulation, yep, it is a composite of many things. So, yes, there are advantages, yes. There are also, w hat I'm going to say are horrific potential issues, including mental health problems, if it's used wrong or if someone kind of gets a little out of control, like with addictions even and I'm not saying you would get addicted to this necessarily, though I suppose it's possible, but it could someone could get stuck and then, if that fell apart, as you say, they're going to go through that grief all over again, as it happened. It's going to repeat. So I wonder if we could take a few minutes, you and I, Dave, and kind of do some summary tips. If what we've said intrigues you, our listener, and this is something that you're curious about and want to check out, what can we say to you to kind of give you some guidance? Do you have any thoughts?
Dave:
Well, I think the one thing and I would suggest this in the program notes is put the link to the New York Times article that was published.
Kathy:
Okay.
Dave:
So that in December of 2023, because that gives a really good overview of a couple of companies that are very reputable that do this. So first is, do your homework, know what you're getting into Right.
Dave:
There's probably going to be more and more grief tech companies that are now going to surface. I would say, like with anything, if this is something you are considering, do some price shopping, look at reviews, talk to other individuals who have used that and do some comparison and do something that you're going to be comfortable doing. The second thing is, I think we said earlier, don't just rely on technology to help you work through your grief. Balance that with this good old fashioned prayer intention and setting up some specific activities that will create that bond and empower you to work through your grief. And I think the third thing is also find out what not only their business practices are, but what their ethical practices are, how they do this, what their policies are. If, for whatever reason, the family or the person just does this, is there like a money back policy? Is there like a policy where they can take if they have second thoughts? So I mean, those are just some things.
Dave:
And also realize that, again, AI is not a person, is not alive. We're just interacting with who that person was. We're interacting with a very, very artificial but yet very realistic version of who they were and who their memories are, and, I think, just as long as they realize that it isn't that. As long as it does not prevent an individual from grappling with the reality of death, it's fine. It's got to be in balance and I think, like anything, it could possibly become addictive. If that's all that that person is relying on to get them through grief, they're preventing themselves from embracing other perspectives outside of AI that could help them expand their belief system and also transcend loss. So, again, it's all about balance.
Kathy:
Very well said, and the way you kind of listed it and everything. I think that those points will be very, very helpful. I want to point out one other aspect that I want people to consider before hiring anyone to do this service and agreeing to whatever it is they ask you. It's likely that the information they are going to be requesting from you is extremely personal. Consider for a moment that this is technology. Consider security issues. Think for a moment all the passwords you might have, that might have a birth date, a special name, a special phrase, maybe a place you visited with the year. Think of all those things and consider for a moment that the information you may be offering that company now, not that that company is going to abuse it, but we all know about hackers and we all know about people that misuse information. So consider for a moment that you could be compromising your own security or the security of your family. So I'd like you to also consider that.
Dave:
And Kathy, if I may, on the other side of the coin is that we're going to be using our computers to make sure that our security updates occur.
Kathy:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Dave:
Because if they aren't updated, if they aren't to the most up-to-date version, that creates some vulnerabilities that hackers can exploit very easily. So if we're going to rely on technology, we need to make sure that we are updating our computers regularly, especially with the most current security updates.
Kathy:
Definitely, and if you need help with that and I know out there that there are many of us - in fact, I even anticipate that some of the listeners are going, whoa, wait a minute, what the - You're talking about this? And I don't get it. I don't understand it. If you don't understand computers and you don't have a foundation of knowledge of technology, ask your grandkids, they know. Get your grandkids and t alk to them about it. They may be fascinated and they may help you make sure that you're being safe and secure, if this is something you want to do.
Dave:
And the other thing is that you don't have to use AI. You don't have to use Grief Tech. Absolutely, and even though somebody might tell you, oh, this is the up and coming thing, well, you yourself are going to determine what's the up and coming thing for you. Don't let AI be a substitute for you to grieve the way you see fit. It's one of many tools. It's like we've talked. You know, 11 states of the union have Aid in Dying legislation and you know I can say off the top of my head right, you know, this could be another podcast, but I believe that every state of the union, every state, should have that as an option for those individuals who want to consider death with dignity. Yes, but does it mean it's the only option for end-of-life care?
Kathy:
No.
Dave:
It's an option. It's an option as AI or Grief Tech should be, an option that people should consider, but not necessarily entertain if it's not for them.
Kathy:
That's right and with any option for anything, even if it's medical treatment, even if it's whether or not to take this pill for your blood pressure, you should consider how does it benefit me. A nd then consider what are the risks.
Dave:
Mm-hmm.
Kathy:
And then you, as the person, make that decision to the best of your knowledge. But you have to do your research, you have to have the information that will allow you to make that decision, and you actually just went where I wanted to go. As we wind up, don't forget for a minute that your departed loved one can, and likely will, send you messages, send you signs. Most people identify the cardinal as a harbinger, a message from someone who has transitioned. I know I get a little flutter in my heart when I see the cardinals in our backyard and we have numerous cardinals, males and females, and my daughter names them. My daughter is an adult now. Just because people can't see me, they don't know that, but my daughter is an adult. You know the male cardinal that comes most frequently. His name's Bob. Now, Bob is not the name of a loved one who has died, it's just Bob. He's dependable. He's there every single day. Yet every single day when I see Bob, I get this special feeling in my heart. If I find a feather on the ground, if I go to a restaurant - and you've heard me talk about my husband, Tom, who's been gone six years now - If I go to a restaurant and I sit down and there's a bottle of hot sauce on that table, I have the biggest smile on my face because I know that's a message from Tom. S o don't forget for a minute to be open for those signs, because they are so much better and they
Dave:
I'm just saying I mean the in comparison to what the universe has to offer, we're we're small in comparison to that. There's so much, yes, that if we're open to the fact that our loved ones can communicate through any form of energy possible, it allows us to get our heads away from our computers and enjoy just those you know wondrous things of the universe. And it tends to be, I think, more long lasting, I think, and more, I think, significant, just because people enjoy telling stories. Like you know, I was thinking of my loved one. I saw a car door. I was thinking of my loved one. I heard a song that reminded me of them on the radio.
Dave:
And though we cannot consensually validate somebody else's experience, it's impossible to unless we were in their skin when they were experiencing it. A person's interpretation of a sign is always dependent on what's going on with them in the present moment. If they're thinking of their loved one, it's a sign. Sometimes a butterfly is just a butterfly, a cardinal is just a cardinal, but it's what's going on that makes that significant and it's our job to understand, through their eyes, what the significance was of that event for them and how, for that moment, it gave them a moment of peace and helped them maybe see a different perspective on life after death.
Kathy:
Absolutely, absolutely. Quick personal story. I went to a medium recently because I wanted to see. It was my test as a skeptic. Okay, I wanted to see was I going to get a message from my husband, my late husband, or my mother or father that made me feel this was real? Well, sadly, I didn't in that session, in that session. So I was disappointed.
Kathy:
Two or three nights later I thought to myself you know, this isn't fair. Why wouldn't Tom give me a message that, you know, I'm doing okay, or you know he sees how I'm struggling? Why? Why didn't I get that message? But I awoke in the middle of the night, heard his voice as if he were standing right next to me, and it said, " you haven't heard from me, kath, because you've always been independent and have never needed anyone. Wow, yeah, I couldn't sleep for the rest of the night. Well, of course, you know, then I felt bad because he didn't feel valued, but that's a whole nother story. But it was amazing how I had given up on getting a message, but when I needed it most, there it was.
Dave:
Well, you know, we're always, we're on spirit central time anyway.
Kathy:
I love that - Spirit Central Time.
Dave:
Yeah, Spirit Central Time. M essages will come in Spirit's own time. Yes, and I've kind of figured where we're going. We're not going to need a watch anyway. No, no, and it will happen when it's supposed to happen.
Kathy:
Absolutely.
Dave:
Yeah, and I think sometimes our loved ones won't come through to a specific medium because it's just not the right time for them to do that. They may not align with that medium's energy. It may be no, now is not the time for me to come through. It may be somebody else that entirely comes through, but it may be a message that you need to hear at that time. So it's just. One of those things is that the spirit world tends to work its own magic, in its own way and in its own time.
Kathy:
Absolutely so remain open.
Dave:
Absolutely.
Kathy:
This is the point in my podcast episodes, as you remember that, I'm going to turn the microphone over to you so you can remind people where they can find you, tell them about your podcast, Tell them about your podcast, Tell them about your book. The floor is yours.
Dave:
All right, thank you. For those who want to get in touch with me, my oldest son, Daniel, calls me the world's oldest millennial. You can find me on Facebook. You can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Instagram. If you're interested in finding out more about the book our book, W hen the Psychology Professor Met the Minister," which was co-authored with Reverend Patty Farino you can go to Amazon. It's both in paperback and Kindle format. You can go to our author website, psychologyprofessorandministercom.
Dave:
If you want to find out more personally about me, go to my personal website, which is www. davidrobertsmswcom. If you want to reach me by email, it's bootsyandangel@gmailcom. I'd love to hear from you. So those are a variety of different ways that you can get in touch with me. The Teaching Journeys podcast is on Apple, Spotify and all of your favorite podcast platforms. We're both audio now and I've just been recently doing video and uploading to YouTube, so we both now have an audio and video presence. Our first anniversary of the podcast is going to be coming up next, actually tomorrow. It'll be tomorrow. I know we're recording on March 30th. March 31st is going to be exactly one year since the podcast was launched, so we're coming up to a milestone, of sorts.
Kathy:
Happy anniversary to the podcast, thank you.
Dave:
It's Easter Sunday, which Easter is always a time of rebirth and regeneration and rediscovery, perfect. And I've been grateful to all the guests that have been on the podcast as well, including you, Kathy, and we have to do this again in the second year of the podcast.
Kathy:
Sure, sure Ready whenever you are.
Dave:
Okay.
Kathy:
Okay, listeners. I know this was a very profound topic and a lot of information and it may be difficult to kind of wrap your head around it. It may require that you need to listen to the podcast a second time or a third time. Please, Dave's information will be in the podcast notes and on our website. You know how to reach me If you have any questions, if you're concerned, if you have an opinion, if you want more information, don't hesitate to reach out. We love hearing from you.
Dave:
And.
Kathy:
I guess, in summary about all this, I'm just going to say be cautious, be careful, remember to take care of yourself by not exposing yourself to anything that could make your grief journey more difficult than it already is. If you're curious and you feel this might be helpful, by all means explore, research. Do not be impetuous. Be cautious. Do your research, bring others into the decision if you need to others in your family. Like I say, sometimes the younger generations will think of something that we might not. And if this isn't for you, fine.
Kathy:
Also, I applaud you, maybe for being at a point where you don't feel that you need something artificial, that you are in tune with everything and, though difficult, you're getting along. That's absolutely wonderful. Difficult, you're getting along, that's absolutely wonderful. But also be cautious, because we all know, especially with new technology, with trends, with fads, with new concepts, there is a group of malicious people out there that might find an occasion to try to prey on those who are vulnerable, such as someone grieving. So please be very, very careful, take care of yourselves and please join us again next time as we all continue to live and grieve.
Stephanie:
Thank you so much for listening with us today. Do you have a topic that you'd like us to cover or do you have a question from one of our episodes? Please email us at info at as I live and grievecom, and let us know. We hope you will find a moment to leave a review, send an email and share with others. Join us next time as we continue to live and grieve together.
