Grief and First Responders

When the burdens of grief and trauma cloak the shoulders of our bravest—the police officers, firefighters, and emergency personnel—we seldom grasp the depth of their silent battles. Jared Altic, a pastor and chaplain with the Kansas City, Kansas, Police Department, joins me in a poignant conversation that shines a light on the hidden emotional toll experienced by first responders. With his insights, we unravel the complex layers of grief that accompany the very act of saving lives, revealing how the necessity to compartmentalize emotions in the face of mortality can give rise to secondary trauma and, if left unchecked, to grave mental health consequences.

We focus on actionable ways to uplift and support the guardians of our communities. I recount continuing my late husband's legacy of kindness to police officers, illustrating how small gestures can make a difference. We provide listeners with practical advice on engaging with and assisting local law enforcement, emphasizing the importance of simple acts of appreciation and the understanding of policies that guide their acceptance. Join us in this enriching dialogue as we spotlight the importance of creating a cascade of care that has the potential to reshape the world.

Transcript

Stephanie: 0:01

Welcome to As I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is. We're glad you joined us today. We know how hard it is to lose someone you love, and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us. We created this podcast to provide you with comfort, knowledge and support.

Kathy: 0:45

I love it. Quick reminder, if you would, if you're on Facebook, pop over to the page, As I Live and Grieve. Join us. Right now we're having some conversations about the myths of grief and pretty soon we're gonna start talking about those of us grievers who have become orphaned adults. That means we've lost a parent or both parents as we're adults, and that you know, that's a milestone in life that we don't think about, because our parents have always been with us and we feel so bereft when they're not there anymore. So again, the page is As I Live and Grieve, on Facebook. Hop on over with us. Today brings us a very interesting gentleman and I know you're going to find this conversation fascinating, especially with everything that goes on in the world day after day after day. With me is Jared Altic. Jared, thanks so much for joining me today.

Jared: 1:35

I'm glad to be here, Kathy.

Kathy: 1:36

Oh, it's definitely my pleasure. Jared and I are going to talk today about grief and first responders. Jared, could you start out by telling our listeners a little bit about your background, please?

Jared: 1:47

Well, my day job, I'm a pastor in a church, but what makes it relevant to our conversation today is that for several years now I've also been a first responder chaplain, specifically a chaplain in the Kansas City, Kansas, Police Department, and so I am on call certain days each month where I will be paged out to do death notifications, and also I get called out to unattended deaths. So like homicides, suicides, accidental deaths, naturals where there's no attending physician. And those calls put me in a position where I deal with not only the deceased but the family of the deceased, those who are grieving, and I also then provide pastoral care to the officers, and so they you know the first responders are dealing with those same individuals and those same circumstances, and they have to try to process what they've experienced kind of as a secondary trauma, and so I help with that too, and that puts me in the same room as death on a pretty regular basis.

Kathy: 2:51

Okay, so as chaplain, I guess at first I might have misunderstood and thought you served only those in the fire department, for example, but you don't. If the firefighters get a call, a car accident or something and there happens to be a death at the scene, you would get called in to be involved with the family, whether it's notification or support or whatever In a short term, in a short term.

Jared: 3:16

Very rarely will I. If I get called to a scene, it's unusual for me to be involved with that family beyond that one day. So for a few hours I'm there and helping them to get in contact with long-term helpers, but most of the time that's a short-term thing. My long-term care relationship as a helper is with the first responders and for me specifically it's with the police officers in the police department.

Kathy: 3:41

Okay, police officers, not firefighters, it's police officers.

Jared: 3:44

Oh, we help firefighters.

Kathy: 3:45

Oh, I'm sure you do.

Jared: 3:47

Yeah, we love firefighters, but my focus is on police officers, all right.

Kathy: 3:51

Yeah, I have an idea, Jared, that you probably would go wherever you were needed. Mostly, with total disregard whether it was police, fire, family that if somebody needed you you would go, absolutely Without a doubt. Now, some people might think that first responders are so well-trained, so focused, and a lot of times I think they get misunderstood like nurses do, and doctors, but primarily nurses that they're conditioned to be detached. But you've seen it otherwise, haven't you?

Jared: 4:21

Yeah, they are trained to compartmentalize their emotions because they have responsibilities. They cannot process things emotionally in that moment because they have a job to do, and most of them do that really, really well. But that comes at a cost. If you're going to see a dead child, if you're going to see a dismembered body, that is going to affect you and you push it down, you stifle it, you compartmentalize it and even if you're doing that in the best possible way, it still is going to come at a cost and affect you long-term. And because it's been compartmentalized and put aside, a lot of young officers especially will then not deal with it. They'll just, hey, well, that's been pushed aside, I'll just forget it's there. And that's very unhealthy because those things always come back. There's no way to just say, yes, I saw that and it doesn't really affect me. Well, it's affecting you, it's changing your temperament, it's making you more difficult to relate to, it's isolating you.

Jared: 5:25

There's a list of things that trauma does and these professionals who do this amazing job that most people do not want to do, they are incurring a cost to do that job and that's why we need to put helpers with them, which is what a chaplain is A chaplain there's because these guys also have, like psychologists and doctors and other helpers.

Jared: 5:48

They have peer support groups within their own department where they can talk to other police officers. But a chaplain is a helper that goes out and rides in the car with them and sees them at the police station and interacts in a way that it's like, okay, we're bringing a helper in who can sympathize and understand and has seen what you've seen, so that you don't want an officer to get in that terrible situation where they finally go to talk to a psychologist and they sit down and they start talking about dead bodies and things like that and they frighten the counselor oh my goodness, because they unload all this horrible stuff. Well, sure, and it's like, yeah, I stood there next to that dead body because they unload all this horrible stuff, you know, and it's like, yeah, I stood there next to that dead body.

Jared: 6:27

It was the dismembered, the head was missing. I stood there for four hours with it. And people look shocked because they're like I've never even thought of something like that, let alone contemplated doing it. And the officer's like yeah, that's just, that was Tuesday.

Kathy: 6:39

It was.

Jared: 6:41

I had to see a dead baby and then on Thursday I was in a fight and on Friday I had four hours of paperwork that I got returned to me I had to redo, and there's all these different types of stress and all these different types of grief that they deal with and people don't understand. So a chaplain goes and is out with them and understands because I've been there, I've seen it, I've smelled it, I've been there, I've seen it, I've smelled it, I've been there with them and I can provide a slightly different kind of help than all the other helpers.

Kathy: 7:08

Right, and I know personally i my own personal care I would much rather go to a clinician, regardless of the discipline therapist, clinician or something that has potentially experienced what I need help with, so that when I say and I think, for example, for a lot of people women like to see women physicians or nurse practitioners or PAs, because when you're talking about pregnancy that male doctor may not quite get it, you know.

Kathy: 7:36

So I would think, especially in this instance with first responders, there would be an incredible value in someone like yourself being there who has. Maybe you didn't experience that exact scene that they're talking about, but you've certainly experienced others and you've got all of that sort of in your repertoire. So you know what they're speaking of and you understand fully their need to give those graphic details, because that's part of processing it. When they see it again like a memory, you know, albeit a horrible memory, a horrific one, they still need to process it because that helps them get it out of their heads, out of their hearts, out of their souls, and speak it, and it's a form of release, if you will.

Jared: 8:21

Yeah, this is why first responders and doctors and nurses and others have this gallows humor, this black humor that other people find so offensive. They are trying to talk about it and process it and it's uncomfortable and easier way to talk about it is to tell a joke about it to make light of it. And also, especially with first responders, to tell a joke about it to make light of it. Yes, and also, especially with first responders. You get cops who absolutely have to depend their life depends on the other cop's competency that they have it together, that they'll be there in an emergency. They want to show that this isn't affecting them. Even though it is yes, they want to show it's not affecting them. So if I make light of this, if I joke about it, that's communicating that I'm still reliable. And it's also this effort to try to get my mind wrapped around it and to try to story tell my trauma.

Jared: 9:13

And it's clumsy, sometimes it's politically incorrect, it is insensitive. Especially if it's accidentally overheard by a family member, it can be damaging, but I am there at the police station where there are no civilians. The family is out of earshot. The family is not even on location and they can joke about something, and I don't discourage that they need to. It's not the best way to talk about it, but for some people especially the first time that they're actually openly admitting that the grief is hitting them hard- yes.

Jared: 9:45

They need to be able to start somewhere, right, and if that's with kind of an off-color joke, that is at least a starting place. Yes, definitely To talk about it, versus just stifling everything and pretending like it never happened. That's dangerous.

Kathy: 10:00

Yes.

Jared: 10:00

And so I don't want that.

Kathy: 10:02

Yes, and I'm so glad you brought that topic up in that perspective with the gallows humor, because it is very common, and I know my late husband was a Vietnam veteran and it's very common in the veterans groups as well. Yes, when they feel that they are in a safe space, and it's definitely generally not when their spouses are around only certain spouses. My husband was chaplain of the local veterans group here, so I was with him on many, many calls that he went on as well. So I became kind of that, that trusted female if you will. But it's very similar in the veterans groups as well.

Kathy: 10:40

But I will say, with the veterans their memories are stuffed from years ago. Yeah, you know where the police officers. It can be very recent, as you made that comment. Well, that was Tuesday, and then Wednesday there was this, you know, it's almost like well, I went to the grocery store Tuesday and then Wednesday I took my child for ice cream. It's just very matter of fact, it's a part of life to them. Yet under all of that are layers and layers and layers of emotions.

Jared: 11:07

Yeah, yeah. There's police officers who have to go home and they have arranged it with their spouse to, you know, have the garage door open so they can go in and undress in the garage and put all of their clothes in a bag because it's covered in blood and other bodily fluids and horrible, gruesome stuff, and they will bag that up and prepare it to be laundered or destroyed in some cases. And then an hour later they're at the ballpark watching the kids' soccer game and everyone else is just like how was your day at the office? And they're like you don't understand, my day was having blood splattered all over me and all kinds of unspeakable things, and that is its own kind of grief.

Jared: 11:53

Even if the officer doesn't know the deceased, they still suffer with those families that are suffering and with that individual who lost their life. They suffer and then they have to put on a smile and go out into public and be at the ball game or at the pta meeting or whatever it is, and act like everything's okay and that it's not very healthy. It's not a very healthy environment. It's very hard to process it and many cops do a great job but a lot don't, which is why we have such high suicide rates, divorce rates, alcoholism rates etc.

Kathy: 12:23

Right, and that was a great segue to the question that I was holding that I came up with a few moments ago. In its most basic form, we define grief as a normal response to an unfortunate event. Okay, and by that definition, certainly it's understandable that first responders would grieve because of the event that they've experienced is unfortunate, but for many people that unfortunate event has to be first person. You know, if I'm going to grieve it's got to be loss I personally experienced. So in that context, what then have the first responders lost that would cause them to grieve a situation like that? Does that make sense?

Jared: 13:01

Yes, part of what they're grieving is a little bit of their own identity, because a lot of people become first responders. They become firefighters, ems, police officers because they want to save the day. They want to run into the burning building, they want to run toward the sound of gunfire and they're going to. In their imaginations they are rescuing the people. They are rescuing the person from the burning building, they're rescuing the person from the bad guy, they are bringing justice or whatever it may be, but they're successful in how they imagined it and what they aspire to.

Jared: 13:40

But the reality is a lot of times you come to a structure fire and you're pulling out a dead body and you can't possibly have gotten there faster. But you'll question for the rest of your life what if I had been quicker? Could I have saved this person? And you go to catch the bad guy. But the bad guy gets out of jail in just a matter of days and the victim almost always lets him back in her house and then she ends up dead and you get called out to that call where a domestic call has now become a homicide, and you're like man, could I have done something? Could I have been faster? Could I have been smarter, could I have been faster? Could I have been smarter? Could I have seen the clues? And they grieve that they are not the hero they thought they were going to be. Okay, now I think they're still heroes Sure, most of us do but they see the losses, they see the failures, they see, you know, they've arrested the same bad they could have.

Kathy: 14:38

should have, would have, yeah.

Jared: 14:40

Yeah, yeah, they've arrested the same abuser five times over and the problem has still not been solved Right, and they grieve that. So that loss of identity is part of what they're suffering. And then the second aspect I think is a big one is identifying with it. When I go to a homicide, I'll go ask the officers who are stationed around the perimeter, because these are usually the younger officers who are not part of the active investigation, but they're just securing the scene and I'll go around and ask them hey, how you doing, how you doing, how you doing? And they'll all be. I'm fine, chaplain, I'm fine.

Jared: 15:11

It's not my first dead body. Well, I know it's not their first dead body, but I'm not worried. If it's a certain quantity of dead bodies, a certain quantity of dead bodies, whether it's one or 50 or 100, it's the one that you identify with, it's the one that you see, because it's the death of a child and you have a child the same age. It's a suicide of a young person who has all the same stuff in their home that you have in your home when you're the same age, and I mean this could be you.

Jared: 15:37

And when you identify with someone who has tragically died, that feels personal and those are the deaths that will hit you hard. And some people really have a hard time because they're identifying with it, they're associating with it and that's what drags them down. And so most officers can compartmentalize hey, that happened to them, it didn't happen to me, I don't need to bring this home to my family. Can compartmentalize hey, that happened to them, it didn't happen to me, I don't need to bring this home to my family. I don't need to grieve this personally. But sometimes that grief sneaks up on them because they've lost a little bit of what they aspired to or they identified with the victim.

Kathy: 16:12

Right, okay, now I want to revisit something else you mentioned a little earlier. You mentioned a long list of I don't know if they were symptoms or effects of trauma. I'd like to kind of go a little further in for those responders that maybe have gotten some help but it hasn't been enough help or for some reason they can't quite turn it around. What are some of the effects we might see and how might that impact them?

Jared: 16:41

With first responders. I mean there's kind of some stereotypical things, because you do see, like higher divorce rates, you see higher alcoholism rates. There's a thing in police culture specifically called choir practice, and this has been around for generations, generations. I mean this goes back 50 or 100 years easily, where the shift ends and instead of just going home they go to choir practice. Well, they're not going to choir practice.

Jared: 17:08

A choir practice is a place where innocent things happen, where you're singing church songs, but what they're actually doing is they're going to go to a bar and drink and there is some good there a little bit, because there is some storytelling. It's like, hey, we're going to talk about our day a little bit. There's a little bit of good in that, but it's mostly pretty negative. It teaches alcoholism and encourages alcoholism. It is not healthy processing. A lot of times it's belittling the trauma and not treating it seriously. It's a lot of bluff and bravado and that kind of thing. It seriously, it's a lot of bluff and bravado and that kind of thing. And so there are some unhealthy practices that traditionally exist within law enforcement. Sometimes they'll joke around that their first marriage is their practice marriage because they don't handle the trauma very well. I apologize.

Kathy: 17:55

Not a problem.

Jared: 17:56

Those first marriages are. Sometimes they kid around that those are practice marriages because they don't handle their trauma very well, they don't handle relating back to the loved ones who are not first responders very well and they make those mistakes and they almost have this fatalistic assumption well, this is doomed anyway. And so why try very hard Now? They learn that that's a terrible, self-defeating way of thinking and they'll bounce back a lot of times in a second marriage and be excellent spouses. And not everyone goes down that route. Some people I know several cops have been married for 30 years to one spouse and it was the one they brought with them.

Jared: 18:33

It's not always negative, but there are sometimes those traditional ways of failing to deal with grief very well.

Jared: 18:41

But there are also lots of other related ones, like rampant promiscuity. Sometimes, when we feel deadened, we're looking for things to help us feel alive, and you'll find a first responder that gets themselves addicted to a medication. They'll, like I said, promiscuity they'll sleep around because they're just trying to feel connection, because they weren't anticipating that they were going to bear that grief the way that they did, and so there's that effort to try to feel something and it'll manifest itself. And, like I said, in drug abuse, promiscuity, some things like that. You wouldn't necessarily expect these highly trained professionals to so easily fall into these destructive behaviors, but they do because they're hurt and they haven't gone and got the right kind of help yet and some there's a lot of cops who've really made a mess of things and they've since recovered and bounced back and have found healthier ways to live, healthier ways to live. But man, it's too frequent that a young officer will go make all of the mistakes first before they start handling things in a healthier way.

Kathy: 19:47

Now I'm positive as sure as I sit here that there have been times you have approached one of the police officers and you know that this officer needs help. You know that they're grieving, you know that they're in a bad place. Yet when you ask them, how are you doing, you hear I'm fine, I'm good, I'm good, yep, especially as they step back a little bit. What do you do? I'm sure you have some little tricks.

Jared: 20:11

Yeah, it's not unusual for the chaplain to get the Heisman pose where they're pushing you away, giving you the stiff arm, and that happens a lot and really anybody who fires to be a first responder chaplain, especially a police chaplain, you need to anticipate not getting results anytime soon.

Jared: 20:28

You have to be in it for the long haul and you're making an investment with each officer that it may take a year or two years to quote, unquote get behind the badge to earn their trust and to build enough rapport that they would actually welcome you into the problem solving as a trusted helper. That does not happen easily. Most police officers, they are suspicious, they are skeptical, they are hesitant to just invite somebody in from the outside. So, yeah, it takes a long time to get behind the badge. So, yeah, it takes a long time to get behind the badge. There is a tried and proven method to do that to get behind the badge and that is just to be present to show I'm not selling you anything. I'm not here to recruit you all to come to my church. I'm not trying to get something out of you. In fact, as a police chaplain, I'm a volunteer.

Kathy: 21:23

I'm not paid to go on these calls.

Jared: 21:24

Well, thank you for your service. Oh, I appreciate that, thank you. But that kind of I'm going to be here again and again, and again and I'm not asking for anything from you. That is called a ministry of presence, and that presence, that long, patient building of rapport, is a good way to eventually earn trust. Now the problem is every new officer I'm invited to know that starts a new clock, sure, and so I meet a new officer at the academy or somebody laterals from a different department. Sure, I meet that new officer.

Jared: 22:00

I know, okay, it's going to be probably a year or two before they'll trust me, and that trust can be lost in an instant.

Jared: 22:07

If you talk out of turn, if you show yourself not to be trustworthy and reliable to be there when they need you, you can lose that trust. And so it's a very delicate thing. You have to be very patient, but eventually you can get past the stiff arm and you can be invited in to be one of their helpers. And I've been at the department I'm at now for about six or seven years and I'm reaching a place where I'm getting officers who will reach out to me and say, hey, can I come in and talk to you? And they'll catch me when I'm walking out of the police department, out of the police station, they'll catch me in the parking lot, want to talk to me and that kind of thing. That did not happen the first two years I did this. It slowly began to happen in about year three, four and now, like I said, I know these guys and I'm able to be one of the helpers for them.

Kathy: 22:58

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Okay, and how about you Now? You talk to all these people and you absorb their feelings, their emotions, their fears, their needs. How do you take care of yourself?

Jared: 23:12

I would have said a year ago that I do that quite well. Thank you. I feel like I am well-built for this. I'm a pastor in a church, I do counseling and teaching, I conduct funerals. I'm used to being around the dead and the grieving and being a helper in that context and I thought, man, I'm built for this.

Jared: 23:34

This is fine and I counted it up just the other day. I think I'm at about 200 dead bodies that I've been on scene with and some of those I'm in a room for hours with this dead body waiting for it to be transported Right. And I thought I handled it pretty well because I could honestly say I never go home and dream about them. You know, I feel like I'm able to compartmentalize in a healthy way and I was fine. Well, last year I was visiting my in-laws and we were just watching TV and suddenly I got really emotional and it really wasn't warranted for the show we were watching.

Jared: 24:11

I mean, maybe you could say oh yeah, that I kind of got misty eyed watching that same show. Not like me, no, I was. I was kind of losing control and at the same time, I was having intrusive thoughts where I was seeing the body of a woman that had been several months back. I'd seen worse dead bodies, I'd seen bodies more recently, but for whatever reason, this one was stuck in my head and I couldn't not see it, and so I called a timeout and I said wait, there's something wrong with me. I, this is, I'm not. I can't control this, and this is really unusual. I'm the helper, I don't. I don't need counseling, I don't need help, I'm fine.

Kathy: 24:51

I'm just like my officers, not my first dead body.

Jared: 24:56

Well, something was out of control and it was hitting me at an emotional level which was embarrassing to me. My kids were there, my in-laws, my wife and I'm like man, why am I having this issue? And so I called a timeout and they went and did another activity and I got on the phone and I called people who I knew could help me. I had another chaplain in California I talked to and I had a chaplain and a guy who is a qualified helper up in Detroit and I called both of them and I talked to them for the afternoon and they agreed to kind of walk me through this and figure out where it's coming from and what I'm doing and what I can do, what's my action plan going forward, and it helped me tremendously.

Jared: 25:43

But it also took me like six months before anyone outside of my family knew that this happened. It took me a long time to admit. As someone who teaches first responders and ministers to first responders, it took me a long time to admit that I had had a breakdown and it was. It felt like weakness, it felt embarrassing that I couldn't control my emotions and truth is, both my family and everyone I've talked to since have been nothing but understanding and supportive. The fear that I will be thought less of if someone knows that I had a weak moment, that wasn't a realistic fear.

Jared: 26:18

Now I felt it, I thought no, no one's going to expect me no one's going to right yeah, they're not going to trust me to help them. It's been the opposite. I think it's actually opened doors where people are like you know what? I had a similar thing and I've never told anybody, but I heard you talk about it and now I feel I can trust you.

Kathy: 26:36

That's not what I was expecting, it's what I should have known, but I kind of had to go through it to really understand it Right, right, I get that and I really appreciate your candor and speaking so freely about that, because I know it for you was probably one of the most vulnerable times of your life.

Jared: 26:53

Oh, I am not someone who likes to feel out of control. I am almost always the person in charge almost always the person who sets the schedule, and for me to be out of control in any way, it was a very difficult thing to go through. Yes, yes.

Kathy: 27:11

But after all, you're human and perhaps in some ways it gave you some more intimate insight into how those feelings can really affect someone personally, so that maybe, whether yet or to come, there may be an individual that you're going to help that is going to be going through something similar and you're going to be able to help them better because you better understand what they're feeling when I hear someone say that they couldn't control their emotions.

Jared: 27:43

I hear that in a different way now than I did the first 46 years of my life.

Kathy: 27:49

There you go. Wow. Well, this has been such an inspirational, insightful and just awesome conversation, but sadly, our time is winding down, so at this point, Jared, I'm going to turn the microphone over to you and let you speak directly to our listeners. We do have listeners around the world in over 99 countries in fact so you can speak directly to them and say whatever you'd like to say. The floor is yours.

Jared: 28:17

When I first became a police chaplain, I had never been a sworn officer, so I didn't know what I didn't know. So I started talking to officers who were in my life and asking questions how did you overcome alcoholism? How did you keep a marriage together for 30 years? How did you handle the stress? How did you deal with all of the different things that come with police life? And I got such great answers, great answers. I'm like wow, there's so much wisdom. And I asked them. I said when did you go back and tell the new recruits all the things you learned? And they don't. They learned it on the hard way, they had to learn it for themselves and they just expect everybody to do that. And I said you know what. I can fix this. And so what I did as a police chaplain?

Jared: 29:00

I created the Hey Chaplain podcast and this is a podcast where I talk to cops from LAPD to Scotland Yard all around the world multiple countries, south Africa and Canada and the United States and I ask them for their wisdom on a myriad of topics, sometimes really serious stuff like suicide prevention, sometimes really lighthearted stuff like what's the worst police car you ever had to drive and everything in between, and I let them share wisdom so that a young 25-year-old police officer who's working the night shift and at four o'clock in the morning he can put an earbud in and he can listen to wisdom that was prepared and curated for him to improve his life and to help him overcome the suicide rates and the divorce rates and the alcoholism rates.

Jared: 29:50

And I'm making that podcast so those young police officers can get encouragement and wisdom and support, even if they're not at a place yet where they would ask a chaplain directly. Sure, you know that probably won't happen until they're a little bit older and they've maybe had a few more bumps and bruises. Yeah, but they might get some wisdom just listening to a podcast. So I make the Hey Chaplain podcast. It may not be for you but it is for police officers and other first responders and I hope that if you know a cop or someone who loves a cop that you would pass along the Hey Chaplain podcast.

Kathy: 30:25

Thank you for that. I'm going to pass that along to my son-in-law, who, as I mentioned, is a volunteer firefighter, because I have an idea that there might be a lot of firefighters too that might be interested in listening to that.

Jared: 30:38

And I do interview a firefighter once in a blue moon.

Kathy: 30:43

That's great, you know, and I might go through, I might look at your episodes. You know, I might be curious about what car they like, who knows. At any rate, I have one final question for you, and it relates again to my alliance with the veterans, especially the Vietnam veterans, because so many times if I see a gentleman with a T-shirt or a cap on that shows that he served in Vietnam, I will just say "welcome home, because we all know that when they came home, they didn't hear that for many, many years. Every so often, when I see a police officer, I say to them you know, thank you for being there, or something like that, and I always get this wonderful, wonderful smile on their face. Is there anything that the average person can say as they encounter a police officer that might put a smile on their face for that shift?

Jared: 31:31

That's an excellent question and it's an excellent analogy about the lack of a good welcome home to most of our Vietnam veterans. It's very similar to what a lot of our police officers are dealing with. The last four or five years they have really got some negative attention and a lot of grief and a lot of they have not received a lot of love and unfortunately, one negative comment outweighs 100 positive ones, and so the first thing you can do is just say exactly what you said hey, I'm so thankful for you, thank you for being a police officer, thank you for serving our community, thank you for keeping us safe. If you can build up 100 of those, it might outweigh the one negative thing they heard and we can try to balance it out that way.

Jared: 32:15

But I also encourage people, especially in small communities, to reach out to their police department, ask what they can do, because some police departments they're always struggling for money and sometimes there's a very simple, practical way you could help if you were to ask what they actually need. A lot of times at holidays, people will send a tub of popcorn or some other treat to the police station, and that's great. Cops love that. But it might be better if you asked well, hey, do you have any single moms who need child care? Maybe I could give a scholarship of here's two months of daycare for their children, and that would allow them to work a shift as a young mom and not have to worry about how they're going to pay for child care.

Kathy: 32:57

Right, great idea.

Jared: 32:58

Some places they have to pay for their own ballistic armor. So inside their vest is a panel, and those panels cost hundreds of dollars each. Some departments provide that entirely. Other times they have to pay for that themselves. Wow. And so you might ask do your officers have any specific equipment needs? Is it a type of vest or a plate or something? If I can raise $1,000 and do that once a year, I could make sure every officer in my hometown has a nice high-end plate, that he would feel safe and his family would feel safe, that he's well protected. And so some departments need that, some don't. You have to go ask.

Kathy: 33:39

Great ideas, great ideas. Now my mind is turning.

Jared: 33:43

The gears are turning.

Kathy: 33:44

Gears are turning. I do, before we go. I do want to just relate a story and I offer it to you as a story, but to my listeners out there I offer it just as something to think about. I was on vacation with my brother and his wife. We were in Albuquerque, new Mexico, visiting my cousins. We went out to lunch. Now, when my husband was with me and we traveled, invariably whenever we went to lunch coffee, breakfast, whatever he would see either a veteran, a firefighter, a police officer, and he would buy their meal. That was my husband.

Kathy: 34:17

So we happened to be in this little cafe, part of a winery, and there were two police officers sitting at a table having lunch, and it was in March, and March is the month that my husband passed. He's been gone six years now and I think at the time he'd been gone three or four years, and so I called the waiter over and I said I would like to buy lunch for those two police officers, please, but please don't tell them that it's me doing it. Okay, just let them know that somebody is buying them lunch. So the waiter said okay and went over and told the gentleman that and they immediately start looking around and I just kept eating. Well, in about 10 minutes, two more police officers come in and sit down at the same table and the waiter came over and said well, now, what do we do? Not a problem, I'll buy their lunch too.

Kathy: 35:00

Well, within the hour there were eight of them over there and, yes, I bought lunch for every single one of them. But by that time, of course, the secret was out. Yeah, and they knew that it was me. And the eight of them came over. Massive hugs, many thanks. And I told them, of course, that I did it in memory of my husband, who always did something like that. And they said that they just couldn't believe it. Every time, the waiter came over and said she's buying your lunch, she's buying you know, and everything like that. Well, it actually appeared on the news that night that a visitor to Albuquerque bought lunch for not two, not you know, but eight police officers.

Jared: 35:46

.

Kathy: 35:47

No, I actually never gave that a thought. You probably should not have said that. Now it's going to ruin my memory, but I mean they were all in uniform and I was just tickled. It's one of my favorite memories to this day. So you know, even if you're at Starbucks and you see a police officer buy their coffee, come on, just, you know, pay it forward a little bit. Let them know that you appreciate what they're doing for you, because I tell you, without them I wouldn't feel safe at all.

Jared: 36:13

Yeah, yeah, and I encourage you to do that. That's a fantastic thing. Now understand, there are some agencies that have really strict anti-corruption rules. Yes, and they can't accept any kind of gratuity, and so if you try to hand them a gift, there's a real good chance they're not allowed to take it Right. Right, and don't be offended if they say no, right, but yeah, if you pay for something on their lunch break and they don't have the chance to stop you, that might be the better way to do that. Absolutely, so that's excellent.

Kathy: 36:43

And I still do it to this day, although I'm very cautious. I don't do it in a restaurant when they're sitting at a table, because you never know, and if that, if that happened again, I would tell them I wanted their radios or something.

Kathy: 36:54

Anyway, okay, our time is well gone, but I've thoroughly enjoyed speaking with you today, Jared. I appreciate the perspective and the insight you've offered our listeners and I hope that if you know a first responder if there's one in your life you maybe be a little more attentive, a little more supportive and gosh when you see them on the street. I know here, I'm in Rochester, new York, and we've got this totality coming up April 8th for the solar eclipse. You know it's going to be massive here. There's going to be millions of people in town and I'm going to make sure to tell the police officers that I really appreciate them being there. So, listeners, take care of yourselves. I know now I'm asking you to take care of others, but what a great world this would be if we all did just that. Just take care of the people around you, right, and then everybody would be taken care of. Stay well, practice self-care and come back next time as we all continue to live and grieve.

Stephanie: 37:48

Thank you so much for listening with us today. Do you have a topic that you'd like us to cover or do you have a question from one of our episodes? Please email us at info at asiliveandgrieve. com and let us know. We hope you will find a moment to leave a review, send an email and share with others. Join us next time as we continue to live and grieve together.