Training in your 60s: Jill Whittaker talks about her best year of climbing yet!

In this episode, join host Tom Randall as he sits down with Jill Whitaker, she is a 61-year-old climber and mother of two accomplished pro climbers (Pete and Katy Whitaker). She is a testament to the power of perseverance and dedication!

We will explore Jill's remarkable journey into climbing post-60 and her unique perspectives on training and climbing.

Main topics:

• Jill's climbing background: From her early years in trad climbing to her rediscovery of the sport and return to climbing.
• Starting training and setting goals:  How she juggled supporting her children’s climbing alongside her own training after a long break from the sport.
• Jill's training program: Insights into her training program, focusing on multiple areas including; pulling strength, finger strength, and maintaining power endurance and flexibility.
• Experiences with testing climbing performance: Jill's experiences with testing, and the positive feedback she received from friends.
• Climbing trip to Leonidio, Greece: Highlights from her recent climbing trip, where she achieved personal bests on some challenging routes.
• Reflections and Advice: Jill reflects on her climbing journey and the impact of structured training on her performance. Plus, advice for climbers of all ages seeking to improve..

Throughout the conversation, Jill's journey serves as a testament to the power of a positive attitude, perseverance, and the importance of having a structured training program.

Do you want to start your training journey? As a thank you to our listeners, we have an exclusive offer, get 15% off our Lattice Training Plans with the code PODCAST15.

Tune in to gain valuable insights and inspiration from Jill Whitaker's incredible and wholesome attitude towards the sport and life, available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and more.

The Lattice jingle is brought to you by Devin Dabney, music producer of the outdoor industry who also hosts the American Climbing Project.

Transcript

Tom (00:00)
Hello everyone who has tuned into the Lattice podcast today. I have a guest on the show who is someone that I've actually known for most of my adult climbing life.

and that is the powerhouse of Jill Whitaker, who you may well recognise the surname because she is the mother of Katie and Pete Whitaker, two of Britain's...

best or most accomplished trad pro climbers over the years and also happens to be someone who has come to lattice in the latter years of her life to come and do some training with us. So this episode really is all about one training post 60 because Jill is 61 years young these days and what it was like growing up as the parent of Pete and Katie and some of the perspective of how

having those two as being really into training, competitions and elite level climbing. Also, she spent a lot of her life hanging out with pro climbers and being really involved with the Sheffield climbing scene. And then some of her attitudes and approaches to climbing and training that we've certainly seen at Lattice when she's come on board for some training with us. I think this is going to be a really interesting episode, which will give you some insights into what Jill's learned with coming into training and seeing what

kind of response she gets from doing that. So welcome to the show Jill. Thank you very much Tom. It's really nice to see you. I haven't seen you for ages so it's really nice to see you again. Yeah I can't believe that we're here sat in a podcast studio and normally it's me sat with Pete on a sofa somewhere talking some kind of nonsense to wide boys but we're gonna be talking training. Yeah we're gonna be talking training and I have been totally psyched by my training that I've been doing. Absolutely it's been amazing, absolutely amazing.

Yeah, yeah, we'll try and make this episode less than four hours because me and you have known each other for a long time and normally it ends up in just a massive chat fest. Yeah. Which goes on for ages. I'll try not to go off trad. No, I think this will be really good. Yeah. So I think maybe the place to start is...

Lots of people will be thinking, oh, this sounds really interesting. I can relate to Jill's age group, her training experience of not having done loads of training in the past, but lots of climbing, but then training for the first time in your life in a more structured, organized way. So to give people a perspective of where you've come from, can you just kind of give us a background of how many years you've been climbing, what did you come into it from, what styles, how did that kind of all look? Yeah, okay. So yeah. So stuff like that.

said I'm 61 now I started climbing I think when I was about 15 went after school with a teacher and another lad from the school probably not even allowed now and we went to a place called Witch's Quarry.

at Downham near Pendle Hill and I found a photo the other week actually, I was having a big clear out and I found a photograph of me on my first ever top rope climb. I was wearing an Aran jumper my nana had knit, a pair of jeans with my hockey socks, my gold hockey socks, they were tucked in. The jeans were tucked into those and a pair of plimsolls and they weren't trainers, they were actually plimsolls.

and I was on this climb at Witches Quarry and I spent many years going back there and just, and then I trad climbed there as well. I also went out on the grit because we live near, well, sort of near Widdop, like I say, Pendle Hill, Heptanstall, all that, trad climbed. And I probably trad climbed up until about the age of 20 -ish.

I eventually bought a Willent harness, a pair of E .B.'s, and a very, very heavy helmet. Yeah, a very, very heavy helmet. And I climbed with those and then in my... And these are what people traditionally think is old school. Yeah, absolutely old school. Willent harness, my goodness me, yeah. And this helmet just weighed a ton. But...

I did actually paint my name on the front of it. How cool did I think I was? And I have a photograph of that somewhere as well. Yeah, and then in my 20s, I was doing up a house, having two children, and we moved to the Peak District, we moved to Edale, and then sort of early 30s, somebody in the village said, hey, do you fancy coming climbing again? I thought, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we went to Stanage, and I seconded Queersville, hard vs.

Oh yeah, yeah, the roof. Yeah, no, Queersville is no, not, not, not, not, not, not, not, not, not, not, not, not, not, not,

I'd not realized that you'd had a break from climbing for a bit then. Yeah, yeah, didn't climb for about nine to 10 years. Okay. So yeah, yeah. And then during that, when you came back to it, you were then in that period where you had Katie, Peter. Yeah, I had Katie and Pete, they were probably about five and seven or something like that. Yeah. So...

We climbed still and we were doing trad climbing, but we went on lots of adventures with the kids. I know Pete's mentioned this in lots of podcasts. My parents used to take me up scrambles, up rivers, gullies, up into the mountains. So we weren't doing loads of climbing for ourselves, but we were just having loads of fun. Yeah, we went out and did that type of thing with the kids. So a bit of trad climbing, never climbed desperately hard on trad, but enjoyed it. Yeah, getting out into the mountains as well. So yeah, it was good fun.

Okay, and then what age were you or what life circumstance were you at when you started to...

go sport climbing more and start to boulder. Was that when the bouldering walls turned up in Sheffield and the climbing work started? I think sport climbing, I remember taking the team away with BMC. So we went to the GB climbing team and we went with some people who knew what they were doing and we went to Portland. We went out to Au Pire, a guy called Ian Fenton who was qualified. So we went out with them and I thought, oh, this is

climbing's all right. And I think I remember just jumping on the end of a rope and doing a 6A and then desperately struggling on a 6B and thinking, this is all right, it's quite good, but I'm not very good at it. Bouldering, right, my first baldering experience was my first date with Paul, who is now my husband. And we went to Widdop with probably a beer mat.

And there was no bouldering guides. And we did some bouldering at Widdop boulders. Yeah. Oh really? Yeah, yeah. We bouldered at Widdop boulders, because a friend of ours was quite into climbing. And he was bouldering around. And we thought, oh, we'll go out. And we did some bouldering at Widdop.

I need to go back actually, see what I can do. So if I get this right, you've actually, for most of your climbing life, been doing some form of trad climbing and bouldering, and really it's the sport climbing that was the bit that came in later, and obviously indoor climbing as well, as indoor walls came through. Yes, as indoor walls got going, yeah. I mean, I went to the edge, I went to the foundry, but my main job was the B layer.

two children who were training really hard and I was the belayer and Paul was the belayer, yeah. So we belayed a lot. I still did some of my own stuff, but probably about six B in the wall was an accomplishment. So yeah, I used to enjoy the indoor walls in the winter and things like that. It was good, yeah. But belaying was my main thing. Yeah, like the parents of many climbing children. Yeah, exactly, yeah. So yeah.

And then, so like I say, sport climbing. I think we took Katie and Pete away on a sport climbing holiday somewhere. Perhaps they were about 14 and 16.

And I remember we taught them what they were doing at the bottom and at the top and, you know, checking they were belaying properly, let them belay each other, sorted out what they were, how to organize the top and lower off. And so I suppose we got into it after that. Yeah, yeah, we got into it. And I love it.

I love trying hard, Tom. This I know. And it's something that I'm going to talk a little bit about to make sure that people understand the perspective of some of the stuff that you had in terms of attitude and psychology that comes with climbing as well. But just to kind of set us up for understanding the training process and coming into a training plan and having a look at that, can you tell me a little bit about...

what you felt like embodied the last three years or so of your climbing. What have you been generally doing? How frequently have you been climbing? What kind of grade have you been climbing at? How's your climbing looked like in recent years? Bouldering, we go bouldering outside. We've got a friend who's really keen on bouldering and not as keen on grit, trad climbing. So he's sort of got us quite into bouldering. So he sets his little challenges and off we go.

go I think the hardest I've bouldered on grit is v5 that's basically because I can put my foot up by my shoulder and that's the only reason I've got up a v5 then down the walls I was doing quite a bit of rope stuff but since bouldering my sports climbing has improved.

So you try really, really hard bouldering. You do moves that...

I'll probably never get on a sport climb. And hey presto, you go sport climbing and you can sport climb harder because you try hard and you think, well, I've done this, I've done this bouldering. So I can pull hard. So yeah, you know, you're just trying such hard moves when you're bouldering and falling off, but you're trying them and you're getting a little bit stronger. I used to go down the walls and do four by fours, try and get me endurance up and all that sort of thing. And I know we'll talk a bit later because I don't really need to train my endurance. So.

Yeah, so that's what I've been doing the last three years, indoor bouldering, outdoor bouldering, and then I go away on sport climbing holidays. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely something that I've always watched you do when you go down to the climbing works and have those bouldering sessions and you're doing it frequently. I always think this is really good because one of the mistakes that I see lots and lots of climbers do is as they either get, their lives get more busy, so they can't do all the forms of climbing or they just age.

and they get more worried about falling off on a bouldering wall or the intensity of it feels more uncomfortable is they avoid it and slowly lose that. But the problem is that that intensity strength aspect is so critical to climbing. And actually it has a massive impact on your sport climbing, even though you arguably could say it was two different sports disciplines. Yeah. Yeah. So when I actually went to lattice and asked for a program, I actually said, I am going to sport climbing holiday, but I don't want to get on the end of a rope and go and train on.

a rope I specifically asked that and could I do that and it was okay to do that yeah.

Yeah, that's interesting to hear. And then the last kind of set up question I want to ask you about before we kind of dive into the training plan and your experiences with that is how do you you're 61 now. Yeah. How do you feel that your body, your physiology has changed over the last 10 years? What's your experience has been with that in relation to climbing? Because all of us sort of sit on that spectrum of our bodies slowly changing over time. And it's

it's something that we're aware of because the reference point often is your grade and how you get on with climbing. So I thought it'd be really interesting to see what you think of the other things. Yeah, it's a funny one this because 10 years ago, so I was about 50, 51, I actually had the time to go and, excuse me, had to go and join a strength and conditioning class for climbers.

So I actually started to improve from 50. It was between 40 and 50 that I just ticked along doing a bit of climbing. But actually from 50, I cracked on, did this sort of strength training, resistance training. Obviously I went through the menopause between 50 and 60, but...

It all seemed okay because I was working quite hard with my strength stuff. I was still climbing. I had time to climb and it generally went all right. It was probably between 40 and 50 where I wasn't doing just quite as much. I was working full time. I didn't have quite as much time to perhaps climb. I went once a week in an evening. But it was 50 where I decided, right.

Okay, I need to crack on and I managed to also.

keep my weight at a reasonable level. I like my food and I managed to keep my weight reasonable as well. So that was really good. So I didn't put on stacks and stacks of weight. I probably did a little bit more between 40 and 50. Yeah. So it's interesting to hear that you said that that strength and conditioning work that you did after a period of not doing very much, you saw such big benefits. I've seen exactly the same in just so many different people.

from the perspective of my own mum as well. I think my mum came back to proper what we call gym weights work I think early 60s and this was off the back of a you know really serious back issue and seeing my mum lift some pretty heavy weights and I went wow that's really reassuring. Yeah I have spoken to your mum about this and I'm so impressed. Yeah she's doing brilliant absolutely brilliant and still keeping it up as well. It just goes to show doesn't it? It's kind of it's not over.

to say you're not over. No, no, it's definitely not over and it's not gonna be over for the next 10, 20 years in my case if I can help it. So yeah, absolutely. So what was it that, I mean, you've been around high level climbers for decades. Yeah. You've had...

Pete and Katie operating at a really high level. You've watched them train for thousands of hours in the gym. You're very aware of the training process. Had Dave Binney writing their training programs for a number of years, you're really very aware on that front. And obviously you and I have been friends for years and I've had lattice and doing all that. But what brought you to the point where you were this year and oh, you know what?

I'm going to do some training. Yeah, I'd been bouldering. I got better at my bouldering in sort of indoors and sort of outdoors. More time. So I'm not working full time now. I'm working very part time. I run a holiday cottage, so it's not full time. I had enough money to buy a program. And I just thought, you know, I love my sport climbing holidays abroad.

I don't want to keep going back and just doing like, yeah, trying 6C, trying 6C plus. I had done 7A, but it was always a bit of a, ooh, I'm going to try 7A and let's see what happens. And...

You know, I had done it before. It was always a bit of a big deal. And so I thought, I wonder if I can improve. I really wonder if I can improve. And I met Olly Groundsall at an event and I said, do you do training programs for oldies? And just for context, Olly Groundsall is one of the original coaches who joined myself and Olly Tour at Lattice. In fact, I think he was our first coach just before Josh. So he's been with us for the whole ride. Yeah. And also I coached with him when he was

when he was a teenager and you've known him for years. Yes, I've known him for years and Pete did some coaching with him for his gold, Pete did the coaching for his gold D of E or something. So we coached Ollie Grounds. We've all known each other a long time. Yeah, we have known each other for ages and he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can definitely do something. I obviously had to fit the criteria which was,

have climbed 6B plus or bouldered V4, am I right with that? And be able to hang a 20 mil edge with your body weight for 10 seconds, which I always need to warm into, but I can do it. So I knew I was okay with that. So I thought, yeah, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna see if I can improve when I go on my trip to Greece in March.

Okay. So the challenge was on. I was focused. Yeah. Yeah. And if there's anything I know about a Whittaker is that when a challenge is laid and some focus is created, my goodness, it's a force of nature. Yes, I was I was ready for it. And it was the best winter ever. It has rained the whole time. I can get down to the boulder and wall when there's not many people there because I can get down during the day. And I love ticking lists.

and taking things off. So it was a good start. Yeah. Okay. So initially when you start the program, you kind of came through the sort of standard door, doorway entrance to the program, doing some testing initially, and then kind of getting on boarded with your coach. How was that process for you? Again, having observed Katie do this kind of stuff and you know what we do, was there anything that was different to how you expected? Was it?

Interesting meeting a coach. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the testing, I was a bit nervous actually. Oh, were you? Yeah, I was a little bit nervous. I was more nervous actually retesting. Okay, yeah. I was nervous about that. I'll come back to that. So the first test we had to do, we had to do a max pull -up test, two reps of pull -ups.

and you sort of warmed into it and then I think, correct me if I'm wrong Tom, I think you have like eight goes at it to do two pull -ups and I was absolutely dreading it. I am shocking at pull -ups, absolutely shocking. So I did that, there was that. Then there was the flexibility, I wasn't worried about that. There was the power endurance, no idea how that would go. And then there was the fingerboard testing.

So my, I got on the fingerboard, so you have to do, is it seven seconds? Seven seconds and you build up to it. I think you have eight goes. You obviously warm up first, you have eight goes and you either assisted weight or you add it to your harness. So I was on my, I'm on a beast maker, so I was on my 20 mil beast maker and.

I think I did 8 .5 kilograms on my harness. Yeah, did 8 .5 kilos on my harness then fell off. That's like in addition to your body weight. In addition to my body weight. So I did that. My pull ups. Yeah.

two kilos on my harness, two pull -ups. That was my max, Tom. Do you think, though, that this came with the perspective of watching beasts all the time down the gym, being really good at that? Because I don't think, in a really sort of realistic way, that's actually that bad. No, but yeah, I have a couple of lovely friends I do strength and conditioning with, and we're all very different at things. And one of them is very powerful. Right, OK.

She's about five years younger than me But I beat her on the flexibility, but yeah, you see so many people down the walls. They're locking off the campers in no chance Yeah, not a chance I can do that, you know, and I do have to sometimes remember Yeah, well, you're 61 even though I don't feel like I'm 61 So yeah, and then there was yeah, so my hip you do hip flexibility You go against the wall You take your legs as wide as you can and I would suggest if you're doing it you put some cushions behind you because you're likely to fall backwards when you've gone to

Max. And that was about my height. So I went as wide as my height. So that was it. Yeah, about 100%, 99, 100%. My power endurance, that's an interesting one. So you take, again, correct me if I'm wrong, you take your body weight, you add to it whatever your max was on your finger boarding, and then you do 60 % of that. So my maths is rubbish, but I have.

like lots of assistance and you do seven seconds hanging, three seconds rest, three seconds gives you not much time, not even time to chalk up, then you're back on and it's a full crimp, sorry a half crimp, fingers flat, no thumb. So you do that, so I didn't actually have the lattice timer at that point.

So I pull sat in the chair, on off, on off, you know all this. Did you have Paul doing all your recording the test? Yeah, he sat there and he was telling me to on for seven off. Oh, I can just imagine this. Oh God. I was going and going and anyway, I fell off eventually and you can't do anything when you fall off, your arms are just gone. And I did five minutes, 24 seconds.

which is good for perspective. Right, okay, I had no idea. That's a long time at 60%. Yeah, I did five minutes, five minutes 24. So that was all my base for my coach to work on. So I got assigned a coach, I got assigned Cam, Cam Hartley, who I've not met. Just saw a little picture of him on my lattice thing, and then it took a couple of weeks for that to come through, and that took me, I did actually book.

two programmes in the end, so I had 24 weeks, and I did 21 and then the rest of it was when I was on my holiday. So you get your Lattice app and it's great, I love it. You're just sort of pulling your sessions around into your little days during the week and working what fits with you and trying not to bulk too much together.

and there is help on the Lattice app to help you to design your training program and what certain things mean as well. So all the session guidance. Yeah, session guidance is all on there and you can also go to like YouTube and have a look. So that was really good and I loved it. But I also am a bit geeky and I had a piece of paper as well stuck to my kitchen door cupboard door, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and I still wrote everything down.

Tom Advertisement (23:50)
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Tom (24:18)
ticked it off. I know we were just talking about this the other day about how we all love these kind of modern apps and all that but there's a certain lot of us that still like to additionally go and use things like a basic piece of paper. Like I love recording things digitally but there's something about also having a little piece of paper somewhere. Yes I used to, I glanced at it, we spent, yeah our sort of living area in the house is the kitchen and I would, it would be there on the kitchen door and I'd be like, what am I doing today? What's going on tomorrow? Or do I have to move it because something else has?

come into my life, but I had quite a lot of time. I'm not like people who've got three and four year old children, working full time, pressured job. No, I was lucky in that sense. That was good on my side of things for that. So I had plenty of time. And what did, what would you say a week roughly would look like in terms of your training? Because again, I think we find a lot of people will,

hear about the programs that we write and they'll see some of the really amazing world -class athletes that we train and they'll go, oh man, if I go and get a training program from the guys at Lattice, my coach is just gonna train me like Will Bozey. This just isn't true. So it'd be really useful to just give them perspective. Yeah, it was interesting. So the two things that were mainly I had to work on were pulling strength, which was the pull -up thing, and finger strength because,

my finger strength didn't match my climbing grade. So I didn't know whether that was to do with, I didn't know how it was matched up. Was this to do with age or was it to do, I didn't know what it was to do with, but I think I did actually ask somebody and they said, it's the model we use. So any seven air climbers, you're below, your finger strength is below average. So obviously I somehow managed to cheat my way up things.

As Pete always says, he's cheater beater. So, yeah, so those were my two things I had to work on and the others were just maintenance. So power endurance was maintenance, flexibility was maintenance. And strangely enough, in the first 12 weeks, I didn't do a single pull -up to train pull -ups.

So my week - Which was a surprise, people. Yes, I didn't do a single pull -up. I was doing a lot of shoulder work, a lot of back work to strengthen my back. I had also told my coach that -

The other things I did, I did myself. So I do three yoga sessions and I also do a strength and conditioning session with some friends. So that came into the program. To start with, I was just, had a friend session down the wall, just perhaps trying to do 15 Boulder problems. There was flexibility in there. There was some leg work.

but it was definitely around the shoulders. And it spread out during the week. I live about 50 minutes from the wall, the bouldering wall I was going to. So I had said, I've got this at home, I've got a board at home, I've got a few weights at home, I've got bands. So all that was brought in so I could do things at home as well. And it didn't actually take that long. Actually the warming up took longer sometimes than the sessions. So it didn't actually take that long. Sometimes I was only 20 minutes.

and I was done, you know. And then I go down the wall and I love my social days down the climbing wall. So I spend all day there. The staff had changed shifts by the time I go home. I literally get there at half 10, have a coffee and we're still there at half past four. That's a combination of those because you're a proper lifer and you do know how to talk. I know. Which of course I love you for. Yeah, thank you, Dom. Yes, I do.

And when you were doing this training and kind of completing that week after week and building towards Leonidio, did you go into that trip with some specific goals that you'd given to Cam in terms of, I would like to climb...

this many of this grade or I would like to climb my hardest ever or I'd just like to have a really productive trip. How prescriptive was it in terms of what you're working towards? Yeah, I wanted to go. I want to have a load of fun for a start. We were going with friends for a week. Then we moved destinations. Then we came back to Leonidio again. So I just wanted to go and see.

whether I could enjoy harder routes and be more confident with them. I never go away. I never look in a guidebook and go, because people say, oh, have you looked in your guidebook? Have you ticked what you, have you looked what you want? I can't do that. I have to go to a crag and look at the route. I just have to go and look at the route and think, I fancy that, no, I don't fancy that. So this was my fifth time to Leonidio. So I'd failed on quite a few things the previous year.

I thought, I wonder if I can do those roots again. I wonder if I can manage them. So it's like a nice reference benchmark to go back to. Yeah, and rather possibly than, oh, I'll try that 7a, I'll try that 7a. I mean, I did try roots like that, but you can try one 7a and do it and try another and it's just absolutely desperate.

and perhaps not your style or something like that. So I'd gone with this in mind, because I always felt a bit like, will I get up to 6C, will I get up to 6C plus? I didn't go with that this time. I was like, right, I'm ready.

I'm ready to go. Okay. And why was that? Do you feel? I felt like I trained hard, I pulled hard, I'd seen some results after 12 weeks. Yeah. From the sort of the retesting? Yeah, the retesting. I'd been down at the bouldering wall and people had...

sort of my friends had gone, well, you've improved. Oh, really? Yeah. So you got that feedback as well? Yeah, I got that feedback. It's like, oh, you're doing some stuff harder than you used to and we can't get up that. You know, we're all friends on a Wednesday, but everybody in that group is a little bit competitive. So yeah, it was, and it's all men as well. Yeah, don't climb with that. There's no bouldering women in my little group.

So yeah. Yeah, no. But there isn't your strength and conditioning group. Yes. Yeah, I have two friends, great friends in that, but they work so unfortunately they have to work during the week. So yeah. So no, it's not. It's not those two friends I climb with. OK. It's the oldest. It's the old. It's the old term. The Grey Pound, as Paul always calls it. What's the name? No, Paul always calls it the Grey Pound. Oh, the Grey Pound. Yeah. In other words, we can come out during the week and, you know, spend some money, have a coffee.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I get that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because of course we have in Sheffield, the grumpies. Yes, I'm not, I don't think I'm one of those. No, no, that's like the next category of age up. Yes, yes. For anyone listening, this is a group that I feel like started out of the climbing wall that both you and I climbed in a lot, 10 plus years ago. And it was a group of retired men and women who were all in the sort of 60 up to 80 age group. Absolutely. And they were climbing multiple times a week.

really motivated and doing so well with their climbing. And I think I found that a really interesting group of people to observe on a weekly basis as a coach, because I went, you know what, people can be seriously fit and really healthy and do really well with their climbing as long as you have this continuity, this frequency. And a group of friends. It's just so brilliant. It's so good. And they're still climbing those people. And they're not even that grumpy. No! Which is funny. Yeah, they're not that grumpy.

But they always call the grumpies, aren't they? Yeah, it's brilliant. Yeah. So, sorry, I've lost trad now. No, no, it's all good. What I was going to ask you was, so you obviously went to Leonidio feeling really motivated and in an attitude of kind of like, I'm just going to get on with this. What was it that you saw in the test results?

before going out there that kind of gave you that confidence, did you come back to the testing and go, oh my goodness, I've improved 217 ,000 % or was it? Well, it wasn't quite that, but. 2%, and that was enough for you because again, I think lots of people think about this testing aspect that we do and this sort of profiling with a lot of lattice and can sometimes feel like if they didn't improve in all five areas, that's not good enough or if they didn't improve 25 % in this because they're fresh.

that's not good enough. So yeah, it'd be really interesting to hear your perspective on that. Yeah, I had nobody to compare with. So I went, I got myself set up for the testing and I was so nervous. Was it at home again with pull -ups? No, it was at home on my own. All right, okay, yeah. So I was at home on my own, I think Paul had gone to a football match and I thought, right, I'll get on with the testing, I'll get on with the testing. And I was gonna do the pull -ups first and I sat below the bar and I thought, oh God.

a single pull up in 12 weeks. What if I can't pull? Just what if I can't do it? Anyway, I warmed up or warmed up and anyway, I got on the bar. So I done.

two kilos on my harness to start with. So I pulled two pull -ups with two kilos on. So I got into my light going up and I actually increased it by 4 .5 kilos. Oh, that's decent. Yeah, it didn't seem a big percent. It was 7%. I looked back at my results, it was 7 % and I thought, that's my worst thing. I'm so delighted. I was so pleased that I could pull, because I do find it really hard. So yeah, so I was dead to a fight.

with that, hip flexibility stayed the same. Finger strength, I'd had 8 .5 kilos on my harness and that went up to 10 .5 kilos. So that was all right. It was - Three or 4 % is that? Yeah, 3 % actually. Just looking at your number on the screen. I had to look it up Tom because I cannot do maths. Yeah, I'm pulling them up on my laptop at the moment. And then I got to the power endurance.

So I obviously left it till I was ready to go. And I - This is the tester 60 %? Yeah, this 60 % one. So my, I had to add 10 .5 to my body weight. So yeah, my body weight was 62. I had 10 .5 to that and you do 60 % of that.

but there was no Paul sitting there, but I did have the lattice hat, so it beeped you in and out. Okay, yeah, with the timers that we have. With the timers, so I think it had 90, I think it has 90 rounds on it, 73 being one round. So I started off and I was going, you know, you've gotta keep your good form and half crimp, and I'm going, I was coming off and going, and I think I got up to about 45 rounds, and I thought, right, I'm gonna get to 15.

I'm going to see if I can get to 50. And I got to 50 and I thought, let's just keep going. And I think I got to 55 rounds and it came out.

at, oh, I didn't come out at 500 and something seconds, I think. And I thought, me being totally useless at maths, absolutely knackered from doing it. I thought, oh, that's five minutes something. And then I thought, no, no, no, you idiot. It was nine minutes, 10 seconds. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, right, OK.

that's a big increase. I couldn't move after that, couldn't tap the computer, no nothing. I was just absolutely boxed out of my mind, but I'd gone up 70%. And I wasn't even meant to be, I hadn't even trained that. Cam had kept it as maintenance. So I'm not quite sure how that happened. Yeah, one of the things that you will often see with climbers is that if you have a genetic predisposition or propensity towards certain adaptations is that when you're

you're doing some form of training and you're starting to structure it, you'll see improvements in that anyway. So I think, and given what we know about Pete especially and how good he is on that power endurance and endurance aspect, is that your body adapts well to anything that fits into that kind of stimulus. It was quite funny because I messaged him after and he said, mom, I could have predicted that. He said,

He's exactly the same as I was. And I thought, well, we're perhaps not quite at the same level here, Pete. But yeah, he said my pulling strength was below par for what I wanted to do. My finger strength wasn't at 9A, which is what he wanted to do.

but my endurance was, well it's basically through the roof, isn't it? Yeah, it was outrageously high. Yeah, totally, totally outrageously high. So yeah, so there we go. I have no pulling power, but, and my finger strength doesn't match my grade, but yeah, the endurance just keeps going. And as many friends will tell you, I can faff forever on a boulder problem and just, oh, I've just got to get it right. No, hang on a minute, I'm just hanging around. Oh, hang on a minute, I'll just work out this move.

Yeah, so not as good on overhangs, but.

Yeah, yeah. And I think this is what it comes down to in climbing a lot of the time is that it's around recognizing that certain things that you are going to be really good at and in the terms of like me and Pete, milk it to the maximum that you can, but then just constantly tick away on those things that you aren't so good at and not take the attitude of, oh, I'm just rubbish at pull ups. So I'm just not going to ever work them. Yeah. It's kind of doing that thing. It's kind of like mentally hard to do is just get stuck into that aspect. Yeah. Do that across.

multiple areas and keep that going over the years, you can just totally turn yourself around as a climber. I mean, look at Pete, for example, with where he is now physically as a climber and a professional climber. If he hadn't done those last 10 years of work, he probably still would be the, you know, very weak for the grade really endurancey person. But actually he isn't now because he's put all that work in. And people sometimes say, oh, you know, you can't build muscle and all that sort of thing when you when you're getting older. But well, I must have done.

I must have built some muscle to be able to do it. And like I said, those first 12 weeks, I didn't do a single pull -up. It was low rows, it was bicep curls, it was a lot of shoulder shrugs, shoulder engagement, that type of thing, trying to get the upper body ready. The other thing is, I didn't have one single injury. In 24 weeks of climbing, I didn't have one single injury.

Yeah. And that definitely helps in terms of adherence to training and timing. Because it was nothing. It started nice and gently and then it ramped up. So I might have got when it got to, I don't know, perhaps I can't remember, week, perhaps week five, week six, I would have to go down the wall. I would have to do four boulder problems that I tried before, but I had five minutes rest in between. And then it ramped up a bit and I three minutes rest. It ramped up a bit.

bit more, I had one minute's rest and I had five seconds rest. I think the other good thing about being able to go down during the day was you could hop on a boulder problem and...

Nobody else was really around, so I had that luxury of being able to go down and choose any boulder problem I wanted and then be able to do the training on it. So that was good. Yeah, that was really good. Yeah, I could see that as being really useful. Yeah, and it just wasn't busy. It was great and nobody was watching you fall off on the last lap. Yeah, it's like that mug that we made for a couple of years here that was, I think, had written on something like, lattice training, making training.

areas too busy since 2016. Oh yeah. And we had it's kind of like an inside joke that we wrote in a mug here because we were very aware that we'd suddenly started to make training areas busy because everyone was doing reps on things. Yeah and the other thing, the other thing I'd be down there and that lattice timer that I got so used to, you know, whatever the sound.

I'd hear it around the wall. Oh really? Yeah, yeah, I'd hear it around the wall. And I think, oh, is that my timer? You know, and things like that. But I did stick to it. I did stick to the training program. And I also...

didn't really overcook it. I also asked Cam, I said to him at one point, and we had discussed it, I said, I don't want to be a training ball with my friends on my friend's day. So he said it around week five or six, he put in, he called it my friend's climbing day. It was called open climbing on the lattice app, but open climbing was either outside or inside. And then I would go another day and do what I had to do. I'd either go on my own or,

just with Paul or something and do my actual training. Because I wasn't being a training bore with my friends. So I really liked that. I liked the fact that I could still go climbing with my friends. I think that's a really key thing and it's a conversation I've had with lots and lots of people over the years. Whether I end up training them or we're just chatting down the wall, is I think it's really important to recognise that training, this thing that we see training is, isn't about becoming some monk that then just doesn't interact with people.

people who doesn't have fun or that. It's complimentary to our passion and love for the sport. And what it does is it's just like a vehicle for getting a bit further, either going further in the grade or being able to do more climbing on your trip than you would have previously or recover better or do more climbing across the year. Is that what it's useful for? Yeah, I mean, sort of back to, I mean, yeah, climbing at the wall and climbing outside is such good fun. You interact with.

with people who are younger, people are asking me about my training, because they could hear this beep on my phone, you know, they're asking, well, what are you doing? You know, and this, that, and the other, oh, right, okay, what does that entail? You know, I just think they were intrigued. Somebody older was doing this training, and was it making any improvements?

What do you feel like were the common messages or questions or concerns that you got from people either asking you about that as training when you're older or even some of your friends that you've been climbing for years? Because I know when me and you have chats on WhatsApp occasionally and you've been talking about your friendship group and saying about how you run the program, I'm guessing there must be some common things that people go, yeah, but or what are you doing with this? Yeah.

The two friends I do my strength and conditioning with, they're really like, they love training and things. So they're totally into it. So they're totally into it. My friends that I climb with at the wall, well, Paul for a start off, no way, he's not training. He's just enjoying his climbing, he's enjoying his biking, he doesn't train. And he admits he doesn't want to. He's not got the motivation. He says, I'm not got the motivation like you have, Jill. You're there, you're doing your yoga, you're doing your stretching at nine o 'clock at night.

and this, that and the other and I'm sat having a coffee, you know. And then, yeah, I don't know, they just haven't got the same mindset, I suppose. I just love training. I love it. I love trying hard.

I really do like trying hard and having a focus. So it's, yeah, it was suited me down to the ground. Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. So I suppose that leads us directly into the trip. The trip. The trip. The trip. Everyone's probably wondering at this point, listening again, but what did you do? Yeah, yeah, don't get too excited folks. How did it go? How did it go? So, yeah, so we went to Lineidio in Greece. I've been there a good number of times before.

Got there on the first day, just thought, yeah, I'll just warm into it a little bit and blah, blah, blah. And then I got on 6C and did that. And funnily enough.

we met, there's a guide came, I think, you know, you often bump into these guides who are doing a bit, and he was a little bit older actually with his friend who was even older, and chatting away, and he said, oh, what you been doing? And I said, oh, I've just done that one there. And he went, you've just done that 6C? I was like, yeah, yeah. He said, oh, brilliant, well done, yeah. Because I'm here at 61, there's Paul and John who are 171, 69, another one,

with us just a couple of years younger than me so we obviously look a fairly aging group and he was quite surprised. So yeah and then we got on the second day and I thought I'm gonna try that 7A. I thought that really suits me but I did look up and think mmm there's a bit of a roof at the top.

It's gonna be the last few moves as well. Oh crikey. And. Out come the pull ups. Yeah. It was sort of a bit of a roof at the, I didn't have to actually climb over it, but you sort of had to get under it and I thought, Oh crumbs, you know, and the, they just put the last, the last, very last sort of the clip was just over the top. And I thought, Oh crikey. Anyway, it was a heinous slab at the bottom, just totally nails for me. But I managed to get my way through it and.

And then I thought, you are not falling off now. You've done that really hard. You've done that really hard. You are not falling off. And I just seemed to just go for it. And I don't know. I just did it. And I got to the top. I had loads of beans left in the bag.

And I got into this roof, I thought, do not let go now. And I just did this massive crossover move, got this last hold and clipped the chain. And I was like, yes, I just on sighted the 7A. This guy at the bottom had recommended it to me. So I thought, oh, he must have on sighted it. And he said, oh, he came back later. He said, how did you go on? I said, I just on sighted it. He said, oh, it took me five goes. Oh, right. Yeah. So I was like, oh, I feel quite good now. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I didn't realize I thought he'd done it first go.

That's classic crag down playing. Someone recommends some to you. They never happened to mention it was really hard for them and then you get the ultimate prize at the end. So it was quite good. It was quite good with that. So yeah, I think.

The benchmark for me, and I was lucky in the sense that I've been there before, there were three routes in the area, one in Kiparisi as well, but the three routes I'd not managed. I just could not do them the year before. I think one was a 6C +, and you'll laugh at this, Tom, because it was a wall with a bulge. Your favorite? Yeah, but this bulge was too hard for me. I can't lock off on one arm on my left hand.

left arm and pop for a pocket. Anybody that knows me, I don't do jumping. If I jump one centimeter, I think I've gone a long way. Seriously, I do. So I don't do momentum very well. I think it's trad climbing that's done that. So I just couldn't do it. And I saw a guy this time do it with the lock off and pop for the pockets. I thought, right, I'm going to see if I can work something out.

Anyway, I managed to work some out some other beta, probably beta I couldn't have done the year before because I wasn't strong enough. Stuck a heel really high or a foot really high and managed to do the route. So I was totally, I was so pleased. Yeah, it was for some people, yeah, 6C plus is really easy, but I couldn't manage that route last year and I did it. That's a good benchmark. Yeah, it was a really good benchmark. I went back to another place, actually where I'd only top.

We'd just tried on a top rope the year before, 7A. I'd managed the little technical section, but I just couldn't pull through these pockets with hardly any feet. I was really struggling. And funny enough, we got back on it again this year and ended up with a top rope on it again. It was freezing cold at the crag, actually. So a friend of mine just said, oh, go on, one last go, Jill. So I said, yeah, OK, one last go on a top rope.

and I did it. I didn't lead that one, but again, the benchmark was the same because I'd only top -rooted the year before. So I managed to pull through all the hard moves. So I thought, yeah, I can pull a bit more than I can pull. And then there was one in Caprisi.

which was 7A and oh, there was like eight boulder moves on it for me and I couldn't touch it last year. I got up the easy section. I could not string these moves together.

It was so difficult for me and I went back to it, had a little play on it. It's falling off all the time and I don't mind falling off, which also helps sport climbing. I don't mind falling off, I'll fall off. So I didn't manage it. And then I went back again to it because it was only five minutes from where we were staying and I tried my hardest and I still couldn't do it. And I was like, I'm nearly there, but I just can't quite get it. These moves are so hard.

There's a Katie message, I mean, said, how's the little project going, mum? And I went, oh, we're moving now. We're moving on, because we're only there four days. And I thought, do you know what? It's only five minutes from the accommodation, and we're only traveling just back up to Lena. I'll get back on it again. So I went back to the crag.

just had a quick go on it. I thought, all right, I saw it in Red Point in it. Fell off the first time, got it the second time. I was like, thank God for that. I don't need to ever go on that route again. So yeah, there was a lot of huffing and puffing at the top as I went over the bulge on good holds at the top. But, oh, I was so pleased because those were three things I just couldn't do last year. Yeah. So that must've been so reassuring to see across the board, the...

ways in which the improvements, the work that you put in played out. Not just like on the one thing you're gonna go and try. It's like this thing, this thing, this thing. It's three things. Three things that, yeah. It was really good and it was such, it was just one year, exactly one year to the time when I couldn't do them.

And what do you feel like now, looking back with that perspective of having done all of the training, the preparation and having done the trip, were the things that really counted and made a difference? Now, like that hindsight, was it the general structuring of work? Was it the specific exercises? Have you got any sort of sense for that? I think everyone's quite different. Yeah, I know exactly what it is. So I've always thought, oh, I'll do a bit of training, you know,

So you go down, you do your strength and conditioning, and you think, I'll do a bit of finger boarding. You do a bit of finger boarding, and you think, I wonder when I should do it again. I wonder if I might injure myself. Oh, I wonder what weight to put on. I don't know how many seconds. There's so much on the internet. There's so much on the internet. But having a structure that somebody who knew what they were doing.

could structure it for you, that was the key. Because then I followed it without being worried that I was going to have, I mean obviously you might get an injury doing something, but thinking right, okay this is the best structure I can have, so I'm going to follow it and I'm hopefully not going to get injured, I'm going to make some gains in a sensible manner and it's going to be gradual.

rather than whack on 20 kilos onto my harness and try and do something. Because you just, you don't know what to do. Well, I don't know what to do. A lot of people don't know what to do.

Yeah, so you felt like it was like that, the guidance, the perspective of really understanding training, having worked with a lot of people with your coach going, I know what you need and what's gonna work well for you, but doing it in a really sort of safe, moderated way and building it up for you slowly. Yeah, and it felt built up slowly, because the first few weeks I thought, oh, right, I've got some shoulder presses to do. Oh, it's only two sets. Well, that's all right. But after 12 weeks, I was obviously stronger.

but it didn't feel a major, yeah, it was hard work, but it didn't feel like I was thrashing it out day after day. I think the other thing that I really noticed, I am flexible and I stick my foot up high to get myself out of pulling really hard and I'll rock over and that type of thing.

but there was quite a lot of leg stuff. So I did my own yoga, whatever else I did. And then there was also the lattice flexibility, which I did follow as well, because I can't do pigeon pose very well, and I can't do a passive frog very well. So I followed all that, did all that.

but, and also there were things like horse stance and goblet squat. So I did those. And what I really noticed was that when I wanted to put my foot up really high, I had the strength in my leg to do it. So the flexibility was always there in that particular region for sticking a foot high, but.

possibly at one time I wouldn't have been able to lift it quite as well to stick it on a hold. And I could, I could. I really noticed that. Body tension also improved. Loads.

Yeah, loads of body tension, you know, relative to what I'd done. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. But you've been climbing for many years, you know, and it wasn't like you were suddenly being put on a moonboard for three sessions a week. And that's why you're like, oh, I got body tension because I was just on the really steep terrain the whole time. It comes in a sort of way. I mean, I've done I have done exercise all my life. I have climbed, but I also taught aerobics for 17 years, step classes, circuit training classes and that type of thing. I've always liked my sport. Never been any good.

good at anything particularly, but I've always liked it. I've always done some form of exercise. Yeah. So, but though that definitely improved, I forgot about that flexibility bit until just then. And that really, I really noticed it. Yeah. I think that's the bit that I look at the work that Josh has done in terms of designing the flexibility work for climbers that I feel really proud of that work that we do now. At last he's looked at the flexibility element, but gone, but how does this relate specifically to climbing?

and how do we build that strength aspect into it? Because it's all very well being super flexible and being able to put legs, arms everywhere, but you can't do something with it, then it kind of is back to being a bit useless or just increases your injury risk. Especially if you're working at end range motion. So I think it's really cool that, nice to hear that you felt that. Yeah, it was good. Yeah, because I didn't really feel like I desperately needed to work on my flexibility. And last question that I have in relation to the sort of

all the training you did and the trip and everything is, what, if you could give a few things that you've learned now over this last six months or so to Jill 10 years ago, who was in her early 50s and you just started, like you'd gone from that period where you'd just been going climbing and you were like, oh, I'm gonna now do some, have more time, I'm gonna be able to do more things with my climbing. What would you pass from now back into that period?

Don't be worried about getting a training program because it's all fine. Don't think just because top end climbers get programs that because you're a lot lower down you can't have a training program. And also the structure. It's just the structure of doing it. That was just the main thing. So structured that you knew it was okay.

it was okay to do that on a certain day and okay to do that on a certain day, yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I always like that, asking that question because you learn these things in life, don't you, and you get to experience them and go, oh, I wonder if I could just gift these back to my past. Or, in my case, why I like doing interviews and podcasts and things, is trying to give those little insights to other people so they can know your perspective and what you learn and then when they listen they go, oh, I've got to do this.

I've got all this knowledge, I've got the internet of everything and I know what you could do, but I just need to get some structure. She all did really well with that. And also, I don't think you're ever too old. Just, you're not too old to try it. Because I think that was probably taken into account as well, I hope it was. No, it definitely is. Yeah, yeah. Taken into account that, you know, but you're just not too old and you can improve. I am climbing the best I've ever climbed. I've never been a fantastic climber. You know, the kids were doing.

doing stuff so I never took my climbing that seriously. I'm actually climbing the best I've ever climbed, ever. It was fricking cool at 61. Yeah, yeah. And I went yesterday for the first time outside, it was freezing cold, before we went to the bouldering wall and I went back to two, well actually to one problem and I did chuckle to myself Tom because it's a bit like you with the sheep.

problem. Oh, that damn problem. Yeah, the boulder problem at Burbage South. Well, I just went to a parent north and there's a little, it's not my style at all, a little boulder problem that I've probably been getting on for the last four years. And I've never been able to make this one quite, it's sort of like a horizontal traverse. So completely my anti -style, heel hooks on, which are fine, work your way along and then you sort of power up to one handhold.

and I haven't been able to do it all the time I've been on it. I've never made it to that handhold. Yesterday I made it to that handhold. I made it to the top handhold but I didn't manage to go over the lip. So yes, so I managed that problem yesterday and then I got on a 7A which I thought might suit me.

but some people will know it, I think it's called Sloper Traverse. To the right of Apparent North, but before the Cowper Stone. Anyway, I did quite a lot of moves on there. So I think I might. I might. And that's Font 7A. Font 7A. So I might, I've never bolded 7A, Font 7A, never. So I might go back and, obviously the hard moves are the ones I can't do, but I managed to string a few at the beginning, I managed to string a few at the end, and there's just this little middle section. But then I spotted a foothold I hadn't seen, so.

The goal is there. We'll see what happens. Sweet. Yeah. Sounds well good. Yeah. I'll have to come out for a session. Yeah, you will. Yeah, we'll go out for a session. Nice flat landing. I just need somebody behind me when I come off the bit I can't do to stop me falling into the rocks. I love a good traverse. Yeah, I do as well. Yeah. Yeah. There's no horrible boulders underneath either. No, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Well, I think, yeah, we've kind of got to the end of the podcast and it's been so awesome having you.

you onto chat about all this stuff. I knew this was gonna be fun to go and do. Me and you have chatted loads over the years and just recently, over the recent months, seeing those WhatsApp messages about being so psyched about your training and everything like that. And I know it took a little bit to persuade you to come and do the podcast, because you weren't like totally into it initially. I wasn't totally into it because you asked me before I started the program and I thought, well, I'm gonna have nothing to talk about, even though I know I can talk.

nothing to talk about, but I got, I even messaged you didn't have from Lynn Idio. And you know, I just hope that me talking today will inspire some people. You know, you can go out and do it. Whatever grade you're on, you can improve. You know, you can improve. And even if you're over 60. Yeah, yeah, but I think you're really inspiring with what you've done. And I think for people listening as well is that they've also got to appreciate that Jill has such good attitude.

when it comes to climbing, like her approach to things and being really on it and being accountable to her own goals and things like that is also a sort of critical part of the equation. And that's, it's not just a turn up and do the thing. It's also an attitude and approach, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah. And yeah, I'm probably quite good at that sort of thing. Yeah, you definitely are. But it's nice to see that when you use that, it's so beneficial and it works so well. Yes.

and that's something for all of us to learn from. Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Tom. Thanks for having me on. And I'm glad you twisted my arm. Yeah, this has been really amazing. Well, I will let you get on with the rest of your day. Thank you. And yeah, thank you for coming on for, I'm going to say, your first podcast. Yeah, first podcast. I've never done a podcast before. There might be a second, you know. Oh, no. Thank you, Tom. Yeah, it's been awesome. I'll see you soon. Yeah, speak to you soon. Bye.