Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference" - Coming together are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
Confronting the Legacy of Slavery and Paths to Healing
Navigating the tumultuous waters of racial understanding is no simple task. This week, Antowan and I accept this challenge with open hearts in our latest Frame of Reference episode. We invite you to eavesdrop on a conversation that strips back the layers of the black experience in America, dissecting the past's shadows and today's complexities. From discussing the divisive narrative surrounding critical race theory to sharing personal confrontations that echo the 'crab in a barrel' mentality, our discourse is raw and real, intent on seeking truth amidst a society rife with ignorance and silence.
Our journey together wades through the murky misrepresentations of slavery, where we counter dangerous attempts to sanitize its brutal legacy. We unravel the often overlooked socio-economic barriers that continue to shackle aspirations, bringing to light the fallacies of meritocracy through stories of personal strife and systemic hurdles. This isn't just talk; it's a clarion call for awareness, understanding, and a collective movement towards growth and love.
Join us as we tackle these pressing issues head-on, seeking to break the barriers of division and foster inclusivity. The struggles and triumphs that shape the black experience are not just history lessons, but living realities that demand our attention and action. We don't just scratch the surface; we probe the depths of what it means to work towards a society where unity isn't just an ideal, but a tangible reality.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Go ahead, let's have it. Hey. Hey everybody. My name is Antoine Holman senior. I'm here with my good friend, raul Abresh, and this is a frame of reference coming together. And, of course, you know Raul Abresh. He actually created the frame of reference podcast years ago, where they're talking about various issues. It started out with the arts and, but then it came to social issues and now we have a. He invited me into this platform to talk about things of a, of a black nature, or just how do we bring the races together? How do we create unity? How do we bring understanding? So thus the name of the podcast, frame of reference coming together. How you doing, brother?
Speaker 2:Oh man, you know it's, it's been a week. You know I mean I can never say anything, though that even when close to you, know the stuff you deal with every day with the guys. If you've listened to this podcast before, you know that my brother Antoine really deals with some serious pain issues and and his character yet remains devoted in service to not only communities around him but to his wife and family and he is the real deal when you want to talk about you know someone that is trying to walk the walk and talk the talk. So I'm kind of I am just fine. You know the cold has been a little bit difficult, but I I'm much more towards cold than I am heat and I am I'm excited about our talk today. Every day we have a talk, every time we get together and just kind of mall things over.
Speaker 2:You know my role in this folks is to just ask questions that I have and I hope they're the same questions about you know, things that you have, and I really want to understand more about the black experience in in America, because we we seem to have two kind of diametrically opposed groups of folks in the US Right now. There's there are those that are acknowledging that there's a problem with systematic racism, that there's still. There are issues that have not been resolved since the early formation years of this country. And then there are those that absolutely deny and, you know, honestly get angry about the suggestion that that does exist, and then that carries people into even more anger. And I guess the third group of people are those that are actively hating on black people, people of color in general. And if that was not the case, somebody please tell me why there's still white supremacist movements where people are so convinced that the white way of living is under threat, endangered, that they, you know, rekindle hate on every front imaginable.
Speaker 2:And you know it is. I don't understand it, folks, because this country is changing. It changed when the you know, germans came in mass. It changed when the Irish came in mass. It changed when the Italians came in mass and unfortunately, the, the African Americans, are black people in our country. It didn't change. It got worse for them when they came. And now, when we're finally trying to recognize that, we have the mess we have today, and I want my topic today and I'm the thing that spurred me to realize that there is this dichotomy in ways that I don't even think about, and I was early in the week. I was just on uppers over our quarterback here in Wisconsin, the Green Bay Packers. There is a young gentleman that is playing for our team right now. That took over for a legend, aaron Rodgers, and this guy is just such an inspiration to me, because not only a great quarterback and a young quarterback, what is he like? 25 years old, I think. I'm not a big football fan, but Jordan is, isn't he?
Speaker 1:About that age 24, 25,. Yeah, Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:And he he's not only, but now he's doing that, but we were reading during this big snowfall we had not too long ago. He was like helping people pushing their cars out of snow banks. You know he works for the. He did some significant work with the Salvation Army over the Christmas holiday break, where he was, you know, signing autographs. You know people would give donations to Salvation Army. He would sign an autograph for them. So you know no, I don't know if you've tried to get signatures, but I'm a Star Trek guide. William Shatner charges like $400 for an autograph.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it just goes to him you know.
Speaker 2:So, just, you know, the quality of the character of the man was so wonderful and I is so wonderful, and it struck me that is there a bridge there, you know, can, can black athletes and the, when they're the quality of human being that there are, does that cause white people or give them reason to just kind of wake up and say, hey, these guys are heroes, you know what are. What am I doing? Thinking that black people are any different? You know they're, they're heroes, they're wonderful people. You know I don't need to see them as black or white, I just have to see them as human beings that are great human beings. And Antoine, I sent that out to Antoine. I said am I simplifying things? Of course I am, I'm that kind of guy. But Antoine said, you know, it is interesting, America loves its black athletes. You know the Michael Jordan's of the world and the you know the Jordan loves.
Speaker 2:But we then will turn around and disdain a black man at Walmart. You know we will look at him and see. You know what's he doing in my whatever you know the thoughts or just be like, oh geez, you know, I better be careful. Or whatever you know, wonder what he's carrying in his pockets. You know the thoughts that go through people's mind because they have disdain. They're they. All of a sudden, the color becomes an important thing for some reason, or you know a place of judgment, and it is. It's ripping us apart. That's that inability to just say hey, you know, we go up and ask questions. Hey, man, how's it going? You know how are you doing today. I don't know what is that.
Speaker 1:Well, we got to get to a place where we are in a space of knowledge over narratives. You know, of course. You know, like, when we take a like, we'll use the Jordan love example. Yes, he is a great young man and definitely celebrate his success, you know, and he's he loves his family and he's obviously he loves the community. So that's that. That is a great thing, you know, of course.
Speaker 1:You know, when we were talking to maybe an earlier podcast, we were talking about how we find commonality. You know, when, when you think of, like, say, a black entertainer, black athlete, you know, and of course, like, say, when we're talking about how the contrast in treatment, or the disdain versus the entertainer, versus the comment, you know, electrician or whatever, you know it is, it's a matter of knowledge over narratives. Because we, because people say, ok, the commonality is with him. Hey, I look Packers and this young man plays for my team and he is being successful for my team, so we like him, we love him. But also when we talk about like, say, the black entertainer, the black athlete, you know, and like, say, the person that goes by narrative Versus actually having the actual knowledge they have to have the narrative of, well, look at no he. Why? Why can't everybody? Why can't all black people be like him?
Speaker 1:He worked hard to get to where he is and but the thing is you had I want you to take a picture of this and just think, for every black successful athlete, you see there's going to be maybe a few hundred thousand that didn't make it. They followed in the same footsteps. They worked out the two three times a day. They did everything that was supposed to in what the world says to become a successful athlete or a successful entertainer. They did what was right along those lines, and so when we see someone that has actually made it, you say OK, why can't they all be like him? And it's like we all are. We're just working hard in our own different professions, or we're.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:We're breaking up here.
Speaker 2:Why a bunch of that's breaking up my friend.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, well, just simply put, just uh, the narrative is Not all of us work as hard as that person that you see on the daily basis on TV or in the entertainment or sports room, which is just kind of false. You know that for every one that you see that has made it in this success, for every successful Jordan love, there's a couple of hundred thousand young kids that didn't make it but followed the same footsteps. They desired the college scholarship. They, they come from a place of poverty, come from a single family, be comfortable, all these different things, and they did everything, but you know they didn't get that. Uh, that scout didn't come to their neighborhood or their school or is always. It's just again, for every one that made it, there's a few hundred thousand that didn't. And it's not to say that we all don't work hard because we do, and that's just a white or black. It's just again that narrative of well, if, why don't they all try as hard as he did and they will be alright, and that's just not the case.
Speaker 1:Well of course we see, yeah well, doesn't that go to?
Speaker 2:you know the whole issue too, with affirmative action programs, and you know the equal like right. You know voting acts. You know the things that are hopefully leveling the field a little bit more. And now there's all of this. You know well I don't get any breaks like that. Why should they get breaks just because they're black or whatever you?
Speaker 1:know Again, and this is what we have to have the knowledge over the narrative. You know, of course, even going back to what was being said in Florida, how, oh, you know the slaves they actually gained skills and actually that's a trying to put humility on slavery. That's creating a whole different narrative about the aspect of slavery and what it was and what it really did and how it affects us to this day. You know, and and that's where it's like now, it's like you is again this Consistent whitewashing of history, or this passifying of history, or just creating this thing about history as if it didn't it did. It's all they want to make it so where it doesn't appear to have an effect on things today because, like I say, those, those very things that were like these things were Acknowledged at one point, but now there's an all-out attack against them. You know, of course, like you got some of the most powerful people in the world now saying you will die with DEI. You will die with DEI D if you, if, like they blame they playing crash on D on diversity, equity and inclusion. You know you got a no billionaires, the richest man in the world, elon Musk, know saying you'll die with DEI and again, it's all about, you know, just again, this minority rule.
Speaker 1:Complex, people think that they're just a replacement theory, complex, and it's just not the case. It's us. The world is changing, the world is evolving. Yes, you know, there's gonna be More minorities, there's gonna be more non-white people. There's actually probably more non-white people, or just as much. Right now I don't know all the exact stats, but, yes, this is a. Instead of embracing this change and understanding, how can we get better understanding and how we can come to a place of growth and love and understanding? People are bringing up these things of hate because, again, all these tactics like taking away voting rights and affirmative action in Women's right to choose, taking away all these rights. Now we're at the next stage of it, where the threats of violence, just like in the 30s, 40s, 50s, now here come the threats of violence again, and this is a Perpetual cycle that we're in right now.
Speaker 1:Dr King he's he madea great quote and I Want to get it right, but forgive me for the Paraphrasing. But he says it's not what my enemy says to me, but it's about what my supporters don't say. And and so we are still in the space where you know we Democracy is under attack. Voting rights, no common, just common sense of law, and even various amendments of the Constitution are under attack, and these and people are aware of it, but they're not saying anything. So me, as a black man, me Calling it out, crying out about it how many times? If I tell you the country is tired of hearing a black man cry, right so, but when we, when we cry about it or when we talk about it, you know we're not this and oh, you're exaggerating this. You're exaggerating.
Speaker 2:I had a friend of mine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a friend this morning, that was, we were having breakfast together and he was said that you know, well, some, some slaves were actually treated it wasn't so bad, they were treated really well by their masters and you know, they, they, you know said that it wasn't too bad. I said, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, and I almost could not believe this is a wonderful guy, okay, this is a very loving, caring, you know guys spent through a whole bunch of just very, very difficult stuff in his life. You know, I had, you know it was great disappointment. Knows what it is to be, you know, just economically threatened and you know, has given of his heart soul, blah, blah, blah. Good, good person, right, but he has been told a bunch of lies as a white person, that there it's, some Black people actually thought it was not a bad thing to be a slave and I said, wait, wait a minute, this is. There is no way, any way, shape or form that a black person ever thought that being Slave was not so bad, if, if, anything there might have been.
Speaker 2:Hey, today was a good day. I didn't get beaten today, you know, thank. You know, thankfully, I did not get beaten today, but there was the threat that the day isn't over yet and I still could do something that would get me beaten, not to mention that you know even to Santas's stuff about. You know, well, you know some black people were taught. You know useful skills that you know they could take and actually, you know, benefit themselves and benefit blah, blah, blah. I said, yeah, just step back from that. A second to. You weren't have a. You didn't have a right to. You know, choose whether or not you want to be a blacksmith or not. You were told by your master You're gonna be a well, you know a blacksmith and you know what you better be a really good blacksmith, because I need a good blacksmith, not somebody that's gonna do crappy job on things. And, on top of it, you weren't. You didn't have any choice. You weren't. You know they're saying you know, well, I really would like to. You know and and be oh okay. Well, yeah, that sounds like a good thing too. Why don't you do that? And, worse yet, if you tried to do something like just read, you know, well, I would like to be able to learn to read too, because you know I need to read manuals and how to do and whatever. Or I just want to be able to read my Bible. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You can't. We can't have black people reading that. That's just not acceptable. So explain that to me. Explain to me.
Speaker 2:You know the, the narrative that says it wasn't that bad. Okay, you know, if it wasn't so bad, then why? Why were black people at all, you know, treated like furniture? Why were they treated like? You know we could never get away from the fact that I own that, that two-thirds person. You know it's like really, how can you even get to a place White folks out there, how can your friends get there?
Speaker 2:Try to understand, try, don't try to just, you know, yell at them, but just say you know that's really interesting that you think that. Why do you think that? Why do you think that, well, I mean, wait a minute. But why do you think that any black person would think that that was a good thing, that that was okay? You know they were treated really well. So you know this is just fine. Do you think any one of them, do you believe that any one of them would, if given the chance to not be a slave, would have not Gone like that to see how I'm not be a slave. I'd like to determine what I do with my life and when I do it and how I do it. I'd like that freedom thing you guys talk about but only have for yourselves, right I?
Speaker 1:Why? Yeah, in course, even going back to that, that's a great point there, brother. And it's like you know, of course, people you know, when you go, like even back to the days of slavery, and you had the house Negro in the field Negro, of course the house Negro had some, some luxuries Excuse me that the field Negro didn't but what, at what cost did that house Negro get those benefits? You know, of course, he had to sell out the field Negro. If they were, if there was any kind of plans or plots to escape, he would go tell master or if, and even at the cost of relationship, you know, of course, those divides were just Systematically changed where, yes, you know, of course, you'll see the house Negro get treated better than the field Negro. And then, of course, the field Negro came to despise the house Negro, and then the house Negro may have developed a complex on us where, hey, here I'm better than you. And then, of course, and that very thing has carried on till today as well, that very thing, and and that's where it's like I get envious of a I don't want to say envious, but it just I admire how other Races are able to stick together except black people, and it's I'm like, wow, stick together, why can't we be one voice? But again, this thing that has been created over centuries put us at odds with each other.
Speaker 1:And I'll tell you a story when I used to live. Of course we do a lot of community outreach, right, we do a lot of things in the community. I was confronted by this person just randomly, just I love this person, and then just basically attack me out of my wife, was gonna call the police. He verbally attacked and was just talking all these different kinds of things, and it's like he was like and I'm like, hey, man, what have I ever done to you? I've been nothing but nice to you.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, then we going back and forth. I'm like I'm just cause, I'm just stunned at what is happening in my face at this point. And then, of course, the person goes oh well, it's good that you're nice to the community. He's like it's nice that you're good to the community, but I need you to be loyal to me. And I'm like I know the Lord and I hit my Zach words was I know the Lord didn't bring me from under one situation to come under another. And then the person dangles a $12,000 checks to my face said if you submit to me, some of this could be yours and that's when. And so again, those is just so many little, bitty, bitty pieces.
Speaker 2:Where you dropped out again.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, oh. Create within. That creates that crab in a barrel complex, or you know what I mean. And so it just. It goes on and on.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot of things that you know we have to pray down and fight against. And you know, of course, when the Bible tells us for as much as up to you, live peaceably with all men. Right, that means live for much as up to you. That means have you done everything you can to get a better understanding? Have you done everything you can to just really put yourself in that person's shoes? Have you done everything you can to relate to that person? No, for as much as up to you, live peaceably with all men. And the answer to that I would probably say is no Cause.
Speaker 1:Again, people may identify, maybe people may even sympathize, but when it comes to actually know some work involved, you know people will get scared because again, what we're seeing is all out. We're seeing history repeat itself because of now, like that Dr King statement I just made is not what my enemy say, but it's not. It's about the silence of the people that are supposed to be with me, and it's like people are being threatened into not talking People, and it. Just. This is where we are. People are in fear of losing family members, people are in fear of losing relationships with friends and family, and so on and so forth. You know, and again it's like we cry about this all the time.
Speaker 1:I think I told you the story in one of our earlier podcasts is where I had a white friend, you know, and then, of course, just so happened, we're a downtown, back and forth, we're in the record stores and all this, and that didn't one of his friends come up? And there was, of course, there was just a light, hello, and all that. And then, of course, my wife friend goes hey, what's going on with that? And I'm like, hey, man, I had a bad experience with that person and he chose not to believe that, and yeah, and so that's what we are.
Speaker 2:Well, you know I have had my own thoughts of. You know this podcast takes off and the wrong white people start listening and start feeling threatened about. You know what we talk about and what I say. You know because I'm not just speaking. You know words out of the southern end of my body, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to speak truly from my heart, you know, and there are things I truly believe and then I think but if these folks show up at my doorstep and threaten my family, you know they, because they're you know, these are not reasonable people. For the most part, right, these are not folks that are acting and willing to listen to another side of an equation. They, they are folks that are just, you know, bent on hell, on hate, and I think to myself am I prepared for that? You know how? How do I prepare for that? How do I prepare my family for that? I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't think my daughter would have a problem, because the the nature of the things that she's studying with you know multicultural racism and she actually, as an, a PhD student, is talking about critical race theory and Knows exactly how stupid it is that we get all bent out of shape about critical race theory being taught in elementary school. Cuz, let me tell you, you think that high school and whatnot is boring. Now, it would really bore people if you tried to teach them about critical race theory, because it's really difficult to get your head around.
Speaker 1:Takes a lot. Yeah, I have the book and I'm still like I have the book and I've been trying to get through it forever, but it's a lot to digest. Yeah, so yes, you would not really really, and it's like yeah, it's, of course.
Speaker 1:I had to have a friend of mine's, a Percy Brown. He basically had to simplify the book for me. It's a study of systems, right? No, and that's where. And that's where it's like, oh, now I can kind of wrap my head around it. It's a study of systems, right, and yes, and these systems do call out, the study of these systems, do expose the, the systemic and systematic Racism that is in this country, and.
Speaker 1:But, like you were just saying, though, like, uh, you know, when this podcast takes off and and and and, people start to hate on you for whatever reason. You know it, cuz, cuz, you're saying something that they don't want to hear. But you got to understand. You know People hate truth and you know people's truth is based on how they feel. And when you are speaking truths like this, you know the enemy, our adversary, the devil hates it. No, of course.
Speaker 1:And what we teach, and what we teach in our ministry, we have to understand that this is spiritual. The Bible clearly tells us the weapons of our warfare are not Carnal but might be, through God, to the pulling down the strongholds. That's a second Corinthians 10 around verse 3 to 5. But then you know athesians 6, around verse 10 or so, it says we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, powers, against rulers of the darkness of this age and against spiritual host of wickedness and heavenly places. That means that this is a spiritual thing. Hate is a spirit. You know the spirit of division, you know it's a spirit. And when we can really get past, that's when we can actually really start to see, you know, the kingdom of God start to really manifest itself on earth as it is in heaven. You know love people and that's where it because, again, because again.
Speaker 1:How many times have I told you I blame the church on a lot of instances? Yeah, this thing start is. It starts in the church. Yeah, where you know, like you got, you know these evangelical churches. They now have this Christian masculinity thing, this Thing going where now it's okay for a church to buy guns and say we're waiting on some type of civil war. No, right, that's not right. That's a spiritual dad, that's a demonic spirit. No, because, if we, if we're actually talking about the love of Christ, he loved people, he forgave people and he gave His life for people. He gave to people. He loved forgave and gave, that's the very culture of Christ.
Speaker 2:He would be the chairman of the DEI committees throughout the country he would be. That would be look at Christ's words, look at the stuff in red guys, that that is like straight out of DEI philosophy and DEI. You know goals and objectives. Because he was not. He didn't sit there and say, oh, here's this woman that's, you know, sitting at the well and you know she's had like seven husbands or whatever. He, you know he, he already knew that before he sat down next door. You know he knew that before he sat down. And yet he was there to tell her about living water.
Speaker 2:He was there to tell her about his role in saving her and saving anyone like her. He had prostitutes that were part of his ministry that were following him. He had tax collectors who at that point in time you know, you know tax collectors aren't particularly loved right now, but they were really hated back then, you know. So, in and then the you know the common people were fishermen. You know that he was all about diversity and inclusion and equity. There was no, you know, the people that he had issues with were the people that were Pharisees and Sadducees that they were like, oh no, no, no, we can't have part of that. That. They don't have the learning that I have in the deeper Understanding of the word that I have, you know. I mean they didn't speak with their kind of brouche accent, obviously you get my point right.
Speaker 1:So, where?
Speaker 2:where is what's the deal? You know? So you think about in the last days that, if it were possible, even the elect would be deceived, will be Deceived. And I think about, you know, I don't know if I want to be or can't. You know, when I go to the think of am I the elect, am I the elect that that's talking about? Because if I am the elect, praise God, but if I'm also the elect, whole already.
Speaker 2:You know, I helped me not be deceived, helped me not be what Dr King even talked about, to the greatest obstacle that I believe he he talks about, like in the last Sermon he had before the shooting in Memphis that he, the thing that he was most concerned about was white, moderate America, just to what you're saying.
Speaker 2:You know that they, they are the people that you know, we're the friends that were marching along with them but yet, when push came to shove, would they have the fortitude, the commitment, the, the, you know passionate, you know commitment overall to this, not being right to stand up and potentially lose it all, you know, potentially die, you know, and to think of it as being anything other than standing on the word of Christ and standing on, if I'm gonna call myself A Christian, then I have to be able to lay down my life for another, and if I don't get it, yeah, and you know, and Again, it's like, and it ain't nothing but the love of God, the love of Jesus, that Uh allows, just speaking for myself, you know, as a black man in this country, to get through what we're getting through.
Speaker 1:You know, of course, because I've made the decision Okay, lord, I'm gonna obey your word. And of course, in the course, when we talk about you know God's word. A lot of times people, yes, you can go, you can get all theological and deep with it, but a lot of Jesus taught at a third, fourth grade level. So His words are pretty plain. You know, it's just a matter. Do you want to do it? You know, like when he says no, like in his first sermon, sermon on the mount, you know when he says blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are the peacemakers. Memory that scripts I just said a few minutes ago is a Romans 12, around verse 10 or 11 or something like that. For as much as up to you, live peaceably with all men. So have you done everything you can to live peaceably with all men? No, blessed are the peacemakers, so they shall be called sons of God, because Jesus himself said he is peace. He is the prince of peace and so, if any and it's like if the church is creating discord, what do you think is gonna happen in the world? Because when he said, even God select will be deceived, he was talking about everyone who, even the people that accept him as their Lord and Savior, will be deceived. And we see that now. Because you know what, when we talking about you know, christian nationalism no, that's white nationalism. You can mask it into evangelical. You can. You can say you can mask it however you want.
Speaker 1:It comes down to simply hate. You're not a peacemaker. You're going against the very word of God that you're saying, that you're preaching and teaching. You're going against it. And that's what Jesus had us. That's who he cussed out the most. He's like whoa, do you scribes and Pharisees and hypocrites? Right? You know, and that's who he cussed out the most. So, and that's what we are right now. And can I?
Speaker 2:ask a question because you're making me think of something again. I keep thinking of it, not asking you. When I see Black men and the video recordings of black men at January 6th, you know they're on the Capitol and they're fighting amongst all of these people that are, you know, trying to tear down, you know, the whole election process, trying to undermine the fair and equitable and elected, you know, transition to power. Are those black men and women and I don't know that there were a lot, I mean, you see, you know, interspersed throughout the crowd? Are they today's equivalent of a house Negro?
Speaker 1:No, they choose to believe what they choose to believe. And again it's like, again, that's where the what we feel like. This is how I see it, you know, it's like a lot of poor or even middle-class Americans are simply being deceived by lies and of course, those are a few remnants of black people that you see sprinkled in that crowd. They chose to believe that lie, you know. And of course, the field and house Negro comment though that's just the one who is in a position, but he doesn't want to get, he don't want you, he don't want the field Negro to come into position. That's a and so he'll, he'll defame, blast and whatever you want to call it. And that's just where it is. And of course, they're at that disdain because, you know, a lot of people just hate the favor that's going to be on your life, point blank. You know. You don't have to hate it.
Speaker 2:How can they, though, not realize the, the movement, the folks that they're surrounded with are? I'm not surprised they're not getting punched. You know that. You know that that there's not a recognition, that I'm aligning myself with all of the things that my people are fighting against, and maybe it's what you're talking about, that we can't, that black people can't seem to be united in an effort, that they're just there. Isn't that cohesion? You know, pervasive cohesion is that is that I'm just trying to get my head around like it doesn't seem possible to me. It's like, you know, it just doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1:It's, it's it's again, again, just from my eyeball and from my perspective. It's all spiritual, you know. And again it's like this look at me, spirit, look at what I'm doing, look at me, look at what I'm doing. And then it's like if you see someone else doing something similar, you're going to shoot it down or defame it or, you know, you're just going to crush it, try to crush it, because you want to be the only black voice in the room or you want to be the only voice that speaks for this people in the room. And you see that a lot, and that's just not a just in black communities, but in white ones as well. In every community you're going to have a, you're going to have playmakers and you're going to have player haters. You know, right, right, right. And if you see someone making a play, and then thing is, it's like, and then you see the humbleness and the humility part of it, you know it's like a lot of people hate that. And again, because again it's spiritual, because it ain't it, ain't you that they're hating, they hate the spirit that's within you and that's where, like you know, we preach and teach this Bible plainly and just saying, hey, understand it. This thing is spiritual. You know the Bible says, uh, bless those who persecute you, bless our those who are persecuted. And you know, for righteousness sake, that means if, if all of this opposition comes up, that means I must be doing something right. I take it as that.
Speaker 1:But you know, one pastor said this. He was like when people start coming against you, the first person you need to look at is yourself. You say, okay, what did I do to bring this on? And then not only do you just pray about it, but you pray and then you wait to get an answer from God. You wait on the Holy spirit to give you an answer and then, if that reveals something wrong in you, you go and correct it. You know it's like I said agree with your adversary quickly, unless you know he turned you over to the judge and you get thrown in jail and you'll be there to pay every last penny. You know. So it's like if it's it's always a, you know, a self-examination piece to everything, and so.
Speaker 1:But when things come up against you, when you when this given to you to, hey, all you're doing is what I told you to do, because when we are walking in obedience to God, our obedience to God is going to offend other people, point blank. You know cause they, a lot of people know what they're supposed to be doing and just won't do it. And so when they see you doing what they know they're supposed to be doing, they're going to hate that, and so and again, that, just that goes. That's just transcendent against people as a nature, as a culture. You know, as as just as the world we live in, and so, but when we're talking about this narrative of you know the white, the black black in America experience, you know it. You know it's like you can do everything, that's right, you know again.
Speaker 1:But you're going to be judged based on how you dress. You're going to be judged based on you know how you talk. You know there's a lot of good young Christian men, like when you go to a place like Chicago right, or a our, our home church, or our pastor, our covering pastor, john F Hannah, at New Life Covenant Church, southeast, when we go down there you'll see young men. Yes, they got there, they got the pan sagging, they got the braze, they got the holy genes, but they are young, devout men and women of God and but yet they'll be judged in the world based or by other Christians, based on how they appear. And then, of course, like I think I told you about how like the doctor here in Green Bay, you know he rolls up, you know he looked like a the common person, but if you just looked at him on the outside you would not know he was a doctor and that's what we are, you know. Again, it's like we need to get to loving people versus judging people.
Speaker 2:Right and judging by and the whole thing. You know, don't judge a book by its cover, right, right.
Speaker 1:And you you go ahead and then no, no, no, and just again, like going back to the original part of our conversation, you know, like when you see a black athlete, you know, for every one successful black athlete that you see on the national stage, there's a few hundred thousand of them that did not make it. They followed the same footsteps, they did everything they were told, they trained as they were told and did everything they were told. It just didn't happen for them, for whatever reason injury, look of the draw, you know it. Just it just didn't happen. And then that narrative again comes up as to where, oh well, if they worked hard as he worked, they all are to be well off.
Speaker 1:And it's like a lot of people are working very hard with what they were born into. Yeah, you know, whatever they were born, it's a lot of good hearted people that want to get out of where they are. They just hoping for an opportunity? You know they hoping that the bus route will start to run through their community. You know, more often they are hoping. You know, yes, if I would. You know, like, again going back to what we were talking about no months ago, there's a lot of people that would love to get off where fair because they can make more money off where, fair if they had help with childcare. And then, of course, it's like you have to sacrifice one or the other. The man can't be in the house. Either you take this welfare and stay at home or you take your chances on your own with, you know, two, three children. You go, get a job at $15, $16 an hour and good luck with insurance, you know.
Speaker 2:Right, Good luck with you know, trying to watch your kids and keep them on a mischief, you know, and good luck with you know, even the.
Speaker 2:I don't know if people would, just as you say, try to understand, try to ask questions, try to really really get a handle on it. I mean, I keep thinking like stories that I hear of a. There's a young black man up in Baraboo, you know small town, what 4,000, 8,000 people in West Baraboo and you know Baraboo combined. He got to the point where he, whenever he was waiting for a stoplight, he would step back from the corner because he got tired of being spit on by white guys driving by in cars or taking, you know, corners. Wow.
Speaker 1:Are you?
Speaker 2:kidding me. You know he said no, you get spit at and spit on a couple of times. That's enough to make you realize, hey, I better just step away from the corner here, wait for the light from there. You know, show me anywhere. Show me anywhere where that is something that any white person anywhere in the United States has to worry about. I mean, I would like to know if there is somebody and I would like to know how they feel about that. I mean, if this can happen in small town America, where else is it happening? I don't know.
Speaker 1:And again, it's like to the uncompromising ear, that was sound as an exaggeration. You know what I mean. If you didn't know, it'll sound as an exaggeration. And that's where we got to get to the knowledge of a narrative piece. You know, of course, all these different narratives are trying to be established and created in this country, but we have to, and the thing is, people that are fighting for rights, people that know, as we speak up on these topics and subjects, we have to stay prayed up and like Lord, don't help help us to, not to grow where we are well doing, because we can yell at the top of our voice and nothing is being done. And I mean, and thing is, there's no change. And the thing is, and it is like you can't blame the and I don't blame the president because I and it's like, and this is where a lot of narratives happen, also because the people are constantly blaming the president and whoever else.
Speaker 1:And that's where we say knowledge over narratives. We need the people need to learn the actual, just basics of politics. You know the legislative system, the judicial system and the executive branch of the government and how they work, because, again, it's easy to point the finger and say, okay, you're not doing this, that and the other, but not understanding that the votes are needed in both of these houses to actually get to a desk to be signed, and so when something's being done or not being done, automatically we just say, okay, and this is like white people as well as black people well, he, such and such ain't doing this, such and such ain't doing that, because you got this constant bickering. But you got a small fraction of people within government that are basically talking, acting and thinking the way that we're describing today. They are, their hearts are full of hate, they have this replacement theory thing in their hearts and so they're fighting all these different, fighting justice and equality on every angle.
Speaker 1:You know, and it's like I know when you hear about like say, okay, abortion is a big issue, right. And then, of course, you hear all these states like Ohio, kansas, florida. They are fighting. They got the right, they got the bill right for their right to get an abortion right on their elections ticket. So, whatever, right, they got these things. But it's like when would you stop electing the officials that are going to vote and try to circumvent the very thing that you're trying, the right that you're trying to fight for you, but yet you're turn around and vote for the very person that's going to circumvent the thing that you're fighting for. And so that's just again where unlearned people, you know, poor white people, poor black people we shoot ourselves in the foot. We vote against our own best interest because we've been manipulated, we've been lied upon. You know, of course, like that book that we shared last week, the kingdom power in the glory, and that, gentlemen I think it's a Tim Alberson time I was in, but whatever, he was just talking about those things how it just these very things.
Speaker 1:You know how even evangelicals are being misled. They're taking an issue like abortion because remember, way back when even in the south they were for a lot of pastors were for abortion, it became political. It became political in the 60, in the 60, 70s and 80s and so on and so forth. It became a political issue. And then, of course, when this political issue, kind of a lot of people in the church adapted this political issue and then it became a good versus evil issue. And then so every, even if you just take now, we're in a space where, okay, abortion is evil and anyone that stands for is evil. And but just think about this everything that the other group stands for is evil as well. Oh, equality, that's evil. Voting rights, that's evil. And this is where, again, I know my. I'm like Lord, help me, love your church, because the joke is acting up.
Speaker 2:I bet we better wrap this podcast up, because my blood pressure is through the roof right now. No, folks just did I do that. No, no, this whole. Thing because I, you know, I've had this conversation and talked with a man on my other podcast his frame of reference profiles and leadership. Talked with a young man who lives in Kiev, ukraine, right now and you know, I can't imagine what those, those people are going through right now.
Speaker 2:You know we've never had that kind of of threat to our nation on our soil like they have had, you know, and the number of people that have been lost in that war, the number, the destruction that's happened. But he and I were, we're talking about that. You know where do things go wrong? And he said it. I think it goes back to asking why that? If we stop being curious about you know why things are happening, why do people believe the things that they do? Why, why, why and I'm just, I'm encouraging people that are listening to this just look at these situations. You know, even if you're thinking about the guy being spat upon standing in a corner and if you're, you're thinking to yourself, oh, that couldn't have happened, that he's just telling that because he wants people feel sorry for him, because he's black. Well, whatever, I mean, I can imagine things that could go through people's health, but I do want, I want you to stop yourself for a second to and say but what if? What if it did happen? Are you willing to consider that it could happen? Are you considering the fact that, if it happened, why could it did it? Would it happen and you know it's worth considering, and it is something that we need to.
Speaker 2:A significant majority of us need to say the country that will ask those questions, that will say that will confront things that will not make you feel good, but they're not going to not make you feel good because you're white. Stop that narrative in your mind, right? I don't know they're going to make you not feel good because, as a human being, as a human being who is called to get along with all these things we've been talking about being a peacemaker, as a Christian that's saying you believe that word of God, you do you need to be able to recognize that this is the battle we're called to and it has to be. We have to be willing to think of it as a life or death battle. And you know they can wipe out, us out. They can say we don't like what you're saying and we're going to burn your house down or shoot you from across an alleyway with a high-powered rifle, whatever, but the truth stands, the truth is marching on right, so let's put the rubber to the road.
Speaker 2:Folks, you know those of you that hear this and are thinking about it. Share it with other white people that you know and ask them to just think about it. Just listen, just think about it. It's not a threat, it's an invitation, not threatening anyone's lifestyle. I'm absolutely not threatening anyone's lifestyle. I am inviting them to consider the parameters of their lifestyle and the narratives that they're listening to. I'm inviting you to consider that your bias maybe runs deeper than you even realize. Maybe.
Speaker 1:And why?
Speaker 2:if it does, why does it? So that's my soapbox. I'm done soapboxing for today, bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, and again, hopefully we can just continue just the knowledge over narratives piece, just really, just again, just trying to bring some understanding and just take a look at the person in the mirror and say am I being openhearted, am I judging people, am I loving people? We have to get to that self-examination piece and, just really, if those of us that say we believe God, again, jesus taught at a third, fourth grade level Are you actually believing, are you trusting in his word? Are you doing what he said? Because, yes, when the Bible tells us to love our enemies, that's a tough thing to do, right, but the thing is, the Bible said do it.
Speaker 1:And this is how I've had to come to deal with it, because, again, we have the power of the Holy Spirit to help us in all things. So it's like, lord, I'm going to obey your word. You've got to change the way I feel about it. You got to change how I feel. I'm giving these emotions to you. I'm putting pride down because, yes, this thing has hurt my feelings or whatever the case may be, but I'm just going to completely give it to you and that's where the peace comes in and that's where you can really say you know what? Again acknowledge where we are. This is a spiritual thing. There's a principality over this country right now and he has a name and ooh, all right, all right, all right.
Speaker 2:Well, let's call Abraham Lincoln too, shall we? Because there's hardly any. I don't know if there's anybody in America, regardless where you're at that would argue that Abraham Lincoln is not a good man. But he once said and I'm probably paraphrasing this, but it is. I do not like that man very much. I must get to know him better.
Speaker 1:I preach from one of his speeches one time yeah.
Speaker 2:You know it's so compelling as a what if that was our commitment? You know I do not like that man very much because there's plenty of people that are spewing off some pretty angry, pretty hateful rhetoric and it makes me not like them very much.
Speaker 1:But again, DEI is evil. You will die with DEI, things like that. So again, for the unlearned person, a person will take that and run with it and hate equity, diversity, equity and inclusion, I mean, and that's where we are knowledge over narratives, let's get there.
Speaker 2:Well, my name is Raul Brush. And you, fine young man, who are you again?
Speaker 1:Antoine Holman senior.
Speaker 2:And together we are frame of reference, coming together and I man, I hope I'm coming together.
Speaker 1:Sorry.
Speaker 2:You know these are, I believe, very important things to be talking about and it is a pleasure to have you, my brother, to talk with and I can ask you stupid questions and I hope I, I know you receive them and you know I get out why you think that I understand you know it's just. It is our deal, right? How?
Speaker 1:are you getting Again, when we both have the desire to have better understanding. That's where the growth comes in, because, see, this is where we are as a country. I like what the new Badger football coach said, and it's something that I've actually started to repeat a lot. He said, like when I get, you know, he was like saying how, when he came in, of course, a lot of people transferred out and so on and so forth, and because they didn't care for the changes, and you know, and, of course, one thing that he said, you know, he said change is inevitable, but growth is optional. And so that's what, and that's what we are right now Change is inevitable, but growth is optional. Are you going to grow spiritually? Are you going to grow intellectually? Are you going to grow in understanding? Yeah, all right, all right, man.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks folks for listening to Frame of Reference coming together. Thanks for tuning in, thanks for taking the time to listen to us talk and I hope we've stimulated some conversations among you and people you come into contact with, because that is our hope and prayer. So, hopefully, tune in next time. We're going to continue the discussion. Who knows what stupid things I might think of to want to talk about or that Antoine will come up to challenge me with, but I trust that they will be as important and enlightening. And what do we call that when you're cohesively becoming more and more of a coalition building?
Speaker 2:or a coalition building conversation.
Speaker 1:There we go, all right, and the coalition is to edify, amen To build up Amen.
Speaker 2:So remember growth is optional. See you next time, folks.
