Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference" - Coming together are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
The Power of Reflective Leadership with Trent Booth
When was the last time you paused to consider what makes a leader truly effective? Our latest episode features Trent Booth, CEO of Veritas Leadership Group, who shares his wisdom on the transformative impact of executive coaching. Together, we uncover the parallels between theater direction and coaching, highlighting the importance of pausing and reflecting to ensure that leaders make decisions that resonate with their core values and drive organizational growth. Trent's insights bring to light the nuanced art of leadership, where authenticity and alignment are not just buzzwords but the essence of inspiring change.
Wrapped in the melodies of "Fear is Not My Future", we wade into a heartfelt exploration of how our present choices define our identity. Trent and I share personal narratives about the figures who have molded us—from the resilient spirit of Winston Churchill to the tender moments with our own fathers. These stories stitch together a tapestry of our past, informing the leaders we aspire to become. We also delve into the culture of leadership today, recognizing the dire need for resilience and humility, and pondering how adversity shapes the backbone of a true leader.
As we close our conversation, there's a moment to reflect on the significant pauses—the kind that can transform a message or forge an intimate coaching connection. We grapple with the overwhelming waves of information in our modern world, emphasizing the urgency for critical thinking. The episode rounds off with a compelling dialogue on how Trent's unique approach to leadership and executive coaching at Veritas might just be the beacon you've been seeking. Join us for a journey through the landscape of leadership, where the power of self-reflection can create an indelible impact on the future.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Welcome to Frame of Reference. Informed, intelligent conversations about the issues and challenges facing everyone in today's world. In-depth interviews to help you expand and inform your Frame of Reference. Now here's your host, raul Labresch.
Speaker 2:Welcome everyone to another episode of Frame of Reference Profiles in Leadership. That's right, we are not profiling people that are just any old schmo walking across the street. I don't walk around, talk, pray and say, hey you, you look like you might be a leader and bring them into the studio. No, I canvass the entire nation, in fact the whole world, to try to find real leaders, people that you want to listen to, because not only are they nice people, but they actually know something about, something that I learned something from them. So I figure, if I learn, why can't you? Okay, so anyways, my guest today is one of those such people. His name is Trent Booth. Trent is the owner, ceo Haipuba, of an organization called Trent Trent. It is Veritas Leadership. Is that right?
Speaker 3:Veritas Leadership Group correct.
Speaker 2:Okay, and tell us a little bit, just give us the elevator speech quick. If you were to say, you know, I'm the owner, CEO of Veritas Leadership Group and they say, huh, what do you say to that?
Speaker 3:What is that? It's actually one of my favorite questions. I was in a hot tub in Kauai a year and a half ago and the guy says what do you do as you would in the tub? I said I'm an executive coach. He says it sounds like a bunch of malarkey. He didn't say malarkey, though I'm assuming we have at least a PG-13 rating. So I said you're not wrong. It's a much misunderstood space Coaching, if I oversimplify it, it's simply asking really smart people, really good questions.
Speaker 3:He goes well, couldn't they do that on their own? I said you are correct. However, most of us won't stop. The tyranny of the busy starts flowing and it's really tough to just take a pause and a pivot out of whatever's happening and what I should be doing. In our experience, when smart leaders pause, think about what's the best version of me, what are my core values and what should I be doing next? What are my strengths? What are we great at? What do we make good profit at? They make better decisions and that leads to growth in the company. Veritas Leadership Group is dedicated at this point to. We've got many coaches like myself. We go into organizations, typically smaller entrepreneur like solopreneurs that have a small team around them. I usually work with the lead person and we have a team of coaches that work with everybody throughout the organization, asking good questions and helping the entire organization to level up. Okay, you know this is interesting.
Speaker 2:As you're talking about that trend, I'm thinking about my experience as an actor and a director. My great love is in my master, fine arts and stage direction, because all the world is a stage. Right, the great bar figured that out hundreds of years ago, and it is so darn true. And you know, for a long time I thought that that was sort of a you know well, I have a theater degree and people were like oh so you, what did you do?
Speaker 2:goof around on it, no, no, actually, there's a lot more to it than that, and you know the fact that you're responding that way. I don't know that, I want to go into it right now, but the reality of theater history.
Speaker 3:Well, the closure, raul, I was in theater college before I was even in Bible college, so I had at least a cup of coffee as a, as a. In fact I did Charlie's on way back in. 1993 is the hundredth year anniversary of it, brandon, yeah, any case. So, yeah, we share, we share a background there. I should also disclose early the fact I'm Canadian, so you are scouring the world route.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, and it's interesting that whole thing with acting to their. You know the in the old days, in the 19th century, there were actor managers. So, addressing kind of the same question, you were can't, can't leaders take care of themselves? Well, the reality is that actor managers, who were on stage and were doing the thing, doing the play, did not have the objectivity, did not have the ability to step outside of the play and see what was working, you know, on a total, a gestalt, you know basis. So the director, that role of a director, came out of that whole process. So I think you're speaking the same language that way with leaders that are, you know, part of their managing, you know their day to day. Leaders that are, you know, small entrepreneurs, are managing. They got their fingers in every pot there is generally. So it's really hard to take that step back and say you know what, scene two is the one that really sucks right now. We need to work on scene two. So same thing, different animal, right.
Speaker 3:But I was asked a lot when I was a young actor. They said oh, you must be great at lying, you lie professionally and you're a salesperson. I was like, wow, double whammy. My experience with acting was it was actually harder to grab what was authentic and real and true in the, in the word yeah, Right, so to be able to take the words on the page and portray them in an authentic, believable way, even if I was supposed to be lying Right Within the context of the play, right, so I think that she connected more with what was true than what was the lie, if you will, right.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, what is the engage, the magic lie, basically, that you can get people to accept it. And you know, the reality is that the commonality you have to find. I know I always had to look at it from the standpoint of even when I was, when I was playing despicable characters. People like, just know, or they have awful actions, they do awful things. You have to come to the realization that no one sees themselves as an antagonist, so the worst people in the world see themselves as justified in doing the awful things that they do in some way. So and there's, you know, that's all over the place in our world today, right, all kinds of folks that you know, gosh, why are? Why are they like this? And well, they're, but for the grace of God, go them instead of you. So Sure, anywho.
Speaker 3:Well, we got. A big part of the work that we're doing is we are trying to ask questions to raise awareness, right, so that is a big part of that work, right. So sometimes our self delusional, sometimes we're telling ourselves the narrative that isn't right, right, aligned with objective reality. So the more that we can ask questions to raise awareness, that gives somebody a shot of self regulating and perhaps they get the course. Yes, very much so.
Speaker 2:Well, so Trent and I were trying to do this conversation a couple of days back and technology let's just say technology was off its meds that day.
Speaker 2:And awesome until we were just you struggling with you know, every other word was, you know, a half a word and, you know, got to the point where even I recognized that there were some problems with that recording, that we ought to stop and just try to do this again. So Trent is with me now, a couple of days later. We're older, we're wiser, we've got better technology, and I'm leading all up to the fact that he already had to do my favorite things. But, god darn it, you didn't hear his favorite things. So we're going to do them again, and some of them may be the same, I don't know. I don't remember what I was doing yesterday, last hour in fact, so I won't remember what I asked and what I didn't. So who knows? But here we go. Ready, trent, you're ready to do the quick.
Speaker 3:Here we go, I'm ready. I love this exercise.
Speaker 2:All right, here we go, lead away, favorite chair, favorite chair.
Speaker 3:Favorite chair. If you are going off the board now, you know what this chair I'm sitting in right now. It isn't the nicest chair, it's not the sexiest chair, but it is the chair I got when I moved to Monterey, when I moved to Montreal in 1995, and it was my first purchase as an entrepreneur for my very own office. So this is my favorite chair. Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, I was. I'm glad that you did that, because otherwise I think your chair would probably start malfunctioning soon. You know, because they do, they hear all, they know what's going on.
Speaker 3:He's definitely on her last legs. I wouldn't say as much cushion left, missing some bold. But so far so good. I'll have to upgrade to one of those really super gamer chairs.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I remember Archie Bunker, right, this chair that he had was just, you know, falling apart, but he and he either tried to replace it at one point, I think, and he was like just blew a gasket Cause he's like Not my chair, not my chair. I finally got it worn in just the way I wanted, right? So how about your favorite song?
Speaker 3:Favorite song. Oh, you know, there's a version. I'm more of a live music type of guy and there's a version live of where the streets have no name, by you two, played at a Boston concert I believe about 2001, that he put scripture at the beginning and it is. It will be played at my funeral. Wow, it is just. It's majestic, it is, it builds, it swoons, and I think it really just moves me. My kids used to call it the magic song when we would drive around, when they were very little, in the car.
Speaker 2:Streets have no name by you. Two streets have no name, but I'm going to have to remember that. Well, thankfully I don't have to remember too hard because I can just go back and play this broadcast again. I've listened to some YouTube, but I can't say I've listened to a ton of YouTube music, so be a good opportunity for me to re-appoint.
Speaker 3:You're right, the Joshua Tree also holds up very well. Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Steminal moment. I would say in a rock. Okay, I'd like to tie this trick to independence and ugh.
Speaker 3:They have a quote. Jim Rohn used to say when the promise is clear, the price is easy. That has guided me quite a bit over the years. It's really getting to the idea of. Napoleon Hill used to talk about having a definite major purpose. You know something that you're really going after a few years back oh, I'm going back probably 15 years now I did an ultra marathon and I was pitching the entire. That's 50 miles or more in one time.
Speaker 3:One such that's a long drive and it's a longer run is nine and a half hours of pounding, and I trained for eight months for that event and the entire time that was one of the mantras for me, which was when the promise is clear, the price is easy. The inverse is true as well. When the promise is not clear, that's where it gets real difficult, and I think it does certainly speak to even the Psalmist that says that when there is no vision to, people perish.
Speaker 2:When the promise is clear, the price is easy. In other words, you can. If you can identify specifically what you're after, you can also identify that the price is worth it, because you've already identified that that promise is Even though there's a lot of pain if the pull of what the promise is the pull of the desire is enough.
Speaker 3:That could get us through, can it?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I just saw a song my daughter had run across it by, I think it's the Maverick City group, called the Future is Not my oh gosh. What is the future is not my story, I think, and it's basically a song about claiming the fact that I don't have to be defined by my past and I don't have to be defined by my future. I can be defined by what is now and by grabbing a hold of it, you know strongly that it's really powerful, because it's not only this like small group of people that are singing. This song, which was written by Andrew Lake, I believe, is the guy that wrote the song through a community of groups. And boy, they just get going, and then there's a pastor in the midst of it that starts talking and preaching and it's just.
Speaker 2:It's a fantastic. I mean one of those where you watch like 18 minutes long and by the end of it you're like yes, yes, you know just totally pumped up. I love it, but I'll look forward to checking that out.
Speaker 3:That reminds me of work I did about 10 years ago, as in a course it's a leadership course at church, but he asked the question like you know, what is your identity? And a bunch of people were like I'm a dad, I'm a sales guy, I'm a leader, and what emerged was all those were roles, all those things that we threw out and it's not uncommon for guys to confuse their identity with what we do yeah, but what emerged that day was a clarity for me that I am a son of God and I'm a sinner saved by grace. As much as things change over time, over the next million years, those two things do not change Child to God, sinner saved by grace. Beautiful truth.
Speaker 2:I just looked it up too, because I knew I was getting in wrong. It's Brandon Lake and Chandler Moore. The song is called Fear is Not my Future. Fear is not my future. Fear is not my future.
Speaker 2:I'll check that one out, and Maverick City Music is the group that put it together. But they did a recording in Alabama. I believe was it was in memory of the North Carolina massacre with a kid that came into the Bible study and was welcomed in and went out and then open fire and killed nine people or whatever. It's a real testimony of the fact that we don't have to be stuck in things like that. That's not our future to be stuck in that stuff. So, anyway, how about a favorite historical personality?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm a sucker for Winston Churchill. That is by way of my grandfather. He was a just loved World War II history. He served in the Canadian Navy as well, and my grandfather my mom's side, did as well the Air Force, but he just loved reading about it and he passed that down to me as well. So to study Churchill, what a factor right there, man. What a force of nature.
Speaker 2:Do you have a favorite quote of his that you go to?
Speaker 3:You know I probably do, but I'm going to butcher it here, this, but I'm just going to miss it. So, I'll have to pass on my Churchill quotes for today. You were a lot easier on Wednesday, man.
Speaker 2:He never said that he was swine.
Speaker 3:There's something about him. It should be better at memorizing.
Speaker 2:There's something about him, a story with him in FDR. He was taking a bath or something and stood up in all of his glory and said something about you know, there's nothing that I would hide, personally or professionally, from you, mr President.
Speaker 3:So I mean so reportedly in politics are a little different. In Britain, Canada, they have the same parliament, where you're across the aisle, like really eight feet away from from your enemy. And she said you, Mr Churchill, are drunken. It's in the morning. And he responded something to the effect of you are correct, but you are a terrible person. Tomorrow I shall be sober. You shall remain the same One of those.
Speaker 2:That's one that I remember. I remember that Churchill was just a fascinating guy you think of. How have he not been there in World War Two? You know, had that not happened, boy, you know, imagine how different the world could be today. So it's like FDR, you know, I kind of think about FDR being elected in 44. And you know all this talk about both candidates are too old and it's like did you ever see pictures of FDR when he was elected for his third term? Yeah, he was not exactly the picture of health at that point.
Speaker 3:He was a green chicken, huh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. How about last one? Do you have a secret memory from childhood that when you think about it, when it comes to mind, when you're reminded of it in passing through life, right, maybe you just see those things and all of a sudden, oh, that makes me think of it. And it's a comfortable place, it's a secure place, it's a happy place that you go back to when you recall that thing.
Speaker 3:Or, yeah, I remember as a young boy, probably about five years old, just in front of the fireplace wrestling with my dad and his whiskers scratching my face, and what an amazing and it smells. And just being there wrapped up in the arms of my old daddio is a tremendous memory and it's one that you know as a final to now adult kids, at this point you know it certainly should inform how we show up as dads and try to, you know, pay that forward and repeat the positive aspects of that Sure Going forward, Sure.
Speaker 2:Well, trent, you've had I have to say you know the things that we talked about the other day. You've had a really interesting journey from what we talked about, in terms of how you got from your initial career moves and steps to where you are now.
Speaker 2:And yet I feel the same way with my own journey. I look back at things and think, you know, that was a necessary point in order for me to get to where I am now. That was a that, even though maybe at that time it was really hard and I really struggled with you know, why aren't I a big star, you know, and all that nonsense but I can look back at it and say, no, it's good, that I'm thankful for that, because that was super critical to who I am today. What was your journey like? Can you resonate with that? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Well, it really does. I actually would celebrate that as well. If I believe in a God that's going to work all things to good, that means even those Valley experiences. Not only was that not alone, I was seen, loved, carried through. Not only that, those are so important to me to have empathy, to be able to serve others well. Now you know it's been a while since I've done keynote speeches, but I would often ask audiences and connect with them on those Valley experiences.
Speaker 3:Not everybody can relate to being on the mountaintop, but when I invoke something like hey, tell me about your worst day, or think about your worst day for a moment, everybody has probably a day, if not a season, that they can point back to and say that was hard. And I would say that if we handle those Valley experiences well, I believe that we are equally invited to help others through their Valley experiences because we've been through that Valley. So even for our kids, you know, with one of my friends we talked about trying to put our kids in opportunities where they can get punched in the face by life. As visceral as that example is, builds character. We've skinned their knees and we've been laid low. In fact, I would. I would be very nervous to lock arms with another leader that had not suffered or or been through some difficult days. Yeah, in terms of seasoning and forging of character, yeah, you know, hear me, I crave comfort, like everyone else, I would rather trade in a second.
Speaker 3:Right, my battle. Scars for comfort. However, I do not lament the fact that that they are designed to help me help other people. Both the good and the bad days are designed for me to bring comfort to others. So there's a song by Metallica called show your scars. Yeah, it's called broken beats scarred, and one of the lyrics in the song is show your scars. Now, for me, it's not a matter of declaring my awesomeness, so much as I'm not ashamed of my scars either. Right, you speak in the words of Paul.
Speaker 2:There's a song that effect. I forget the name of the artist. Thank you for the scars. I think it's a contemporary CCM piece, but that also. I'm a big Star Trek fan. I mean, since I was a little kid. I've been watching it since 66 when it was actually on TV, and it was. I remember that as the movies came along. It's always been interesting that the odd numbered movies there's like a Star Trek curse, that the odd numbered movies always suck in the even side. Numbered movies are wonderful and I challenge that Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, number two.
Speaker 2:And I challenge that because actually one of my favorite moments, or some of my favorite moments in films are in five, which you know, the search, the.
Speaker 2:You know that one got the God thing or whatnot. But there's a wonderful thing in there where Cybac, you know the Spock's half brother, is trying to get followers by taking away their pain, you know, and he does it successfully with with McCoy and tries to do it with Spock and by doing like taking their worst day, basically, and trying to, you know, get to the point where once he has that pain, that he takes that pain away and he tries to do the same darn thing to Kirk and Kirk says I don't want you to take away my pain, I need my pain. And it's a wonderfully acted moment by Shatner and that scene made me think about he's absolutely right, if you take away a person's pain, you take away a good part of their definition. And that that to me was a really insightful thing, that in the campfire scene where they're singing Ro Ro Ro your boat and Spock says, captain, life is not a dream.
Speaker 3:I took my daughter to the Museum of Natural History at one point and then in here in Philadelphia area where I live now we live outside in New Jersey, but we took her to this butterfly exhibit and she was being. This butterfly emerged from the chrysalis and she was traumatized as a kindergarten. She said daddy, this butterfly looks like it's dying, trying to emerge from the cocoon. Why doesn't somebody help the butterfly? And I had to whisper to her. I said, babe, if we help the butterfly by opening the cocoon and it doesn't fight to get out, it will surely die. The butterfly needs to exercise against that resistance to get the fluid in its wings so that when the wings dry it can fly. Otherwise it's surely it will die. So the butterfly requires the struggle to be able to fly and it's been something that's really guided her and I since that magical moment 17 years ago.
Speaker 2:Wow, I've never known that before. That's that, you know, I've they had a butterfly.
Speaker 3:We need it. We need your struggle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, just another great example of how everything is designed right To inform other things. Is there a lesson that you think I don't know that you could pin it down to one, but would you say that there's a critical lesson that you think most leaders have had but don't realize how critical it is? Is there such a thing as a singular, or is it just a particular theme or idea? Is there something that you think is so core that any leader that doesn't experience it or have some crucible moment, if you will like that that it's just always gonna hinder them and they need to learn to embrace it somehow?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say in general the whole concept of adversity. You know, when I'm talking to sometimes young, there's, let's say, a young guy in his twenties. I remember having this one conversation and he was a bit of an outlier. He got out to a nice start of his career and I asked him about his worst day and he didn't have an answer. I was very concerned for him because that means it's still in front of him.
Speaker 3:If you haven't been battle tested, if you kind of haven't got your sea legs, the time to discover those sea legs is not in the biggest storm. You want to get those beforehand. So what I would say, generically speaking, is that the best leaders I've observed over time are the ones that learn the lessons, even in those hard seasons, whether the mistake was theirs or somebody else's. They're looking to grow from that. They're looking to mine those difficult experiences for as much silver lining as they can pull out of that so that can inform other decisions going forward or perhaps help them feel differently about what happened. That has time to kind of work through it. The point being that what you show me a leader with no scars that I'm not sure we're looking at. A leader, sure.
Speaker 2:Do you think? I look at today's world and a lot of the folks that are leaders by position and they're not leaders by the quality of people wanting to follow them. And yet I also see people that are being followed that I look at and think why? Why are people following that person? And the single thing that I see in that is the leaders that are in either of those categories, whether people are following them or not, tend to be people that put the onus of a failure, any failure, on someone else, something else, something that was unfair to them, something where they get to play the victim, if you will I don't know victim's the right word but they get to be the protagonist that was unfairly hit by whatever this circumstance was. What is it about that? Because to me that's like the antithesis of a good leader.
Speaker 2:I think of Harry Truman and saying the book stops here. It's just that quality of saying you know what? Even if I didn't make the decision myself directly as the leader, I still have to take responsibility for the fact that it happened and more so, I have to take responsibility for getting us out of the consequences of that. Now Is that am I misreading things? But that attitude, that environment in our culture today, globally and in the US, really concerns me.
Speaker 3:I don't know if it's new. I would argue it's not necessarily new. However, we're seeing more of it because of the proliferation of social media, so everyone has a microphone. Now there's a title of a book called the Death of Expertise, and the challenge is anybody who hangs a shingle can be an expert now. Now, that could be wonderful as equal parts crazy, if not filtering the voices that we're listening to, right? So somebody doesn't have to declare themselves as a leader. If they're an influencer, by definition, they're leading. Now the question is are they leading well or are they leading poorly?
Speaker 3:My friend, andrew Cavillage, is a pastor at our church and he'll walk up to a young kid and they'll say somebody do the effect of. You are clearly a leader, you demonstrate all kinds of leadership qualities. The question is are you going to be a good leader or a bad one? And I'll joke about hey, let's keep this kid on the path for good, because if we start chasing the path for evil, who knows where that could go the next Darth Vader? The point being that we've got to find ways to invite people to step into that narrow path to lead well.
Speaker 3:And if you talk about accountability being part of that, it's a tricky time because I would say I've seen abuse go both ways. I've seen people say things like well, the secret? And they say that I am absolutely responsible for everything that happens around me. Now they're a big fan of when that means that led to my becoming wealthy. And this is an old ethic, the secret. It hasn't even been relevant for, I would say, 15 years. Those same people aren't taking responsibility if they've got cancer and it's part of the same reason. I would throw that whole ethic out of the secret. I'm glad it's not a thing anymore, but it's not new again, right? So taking responsibility for everything will just make us tired trying to influence things that we cannot or should not and not meant to influence. Praying for a sunny day on my wedding is probably not the right way to spend time on my knees Praying that I would be having a great day regardless of whether it's raining or sunny. That's probably the better ethic, right? Lord, would you change me? It's not all about me.
Speaker 3:On the other side, I do encourage leaders to take as much accountability, responsibility, as they possibly can. It is wildly refreshing because of the dynamic that you're referring to, regardless of politics, if you take a look at both sides would say, hey, if they have messed up, nobody's saying I done messed up, nobody's taking responsibility for it. And the more that we get to sensitize to that, the more we celebrate leaders who are not only not taking accountability, we're being celebrated for that. Unfortunately, I would say that we were reinforcing that weak ethic. That said, there's always if Mr Rogers says during 9-11, there's always somebody running towards the fire, there's people helping. I would say there are voices that are also helping, saying take responsibility, own what you can in a challenge. Even if I'm reaching a little bit, I'm gonna own anything I can in our conflict with one another, because I wanna be able to move forward. That takes humility, which is also, I would say, in short supply today. However, it's not gone, but when you find it, let's spend more time there.
Speaker 2:Do you find, do you have a relatively I don't know, do you find yourself going to a litmus test of sorts when you're listening to someone or observing someone's leadership style? Is there any kind of a?
Speaker 3:just a, oh yeah, oh yeah, careful, there, careful, and this mighty sense starts tingling once I find somebody sharing and I don't find that to be authentic or genuine. Okay, and I think that there is a greater scrutiny and it's appropriate and good in terms of being able to determine who's being authentic, who's being real. Gary Vaynerchuk would be one of my guilty pleasures right now not say for work language. It's typically very you say sentence enhancers spice throughout. Right, that said, is you don't question whether he believes what he's saying and whether he's being authentic and real, if you will, and that real piece is very attractive. I would even argue politically. You've seen, part of what people have loved about Donald Trump is the fact that boy, that guy does speak. He sounds like us and we prefer that to the political speak that we've been hearing for years. I think you can make an argument. Maybe we swung the pendulum too far. That said is right. Yeah, think People who, if they say things that are just not true, so as much as that background, had theater school and then Bible college.
Speaker 3:I didn't finish any college in the end. I'm grateful for that season in Bible college because I pinned down what I would call presuppositions, shortcuts with how the world works. I'm still open to learning and even tweaking some of those core values. That said is now I've got a coffee filter which I could run all these ideas through. I got this nice basket of coffee grounds, and I'm gonna keep this delicious pot of coffee and I'm gonna throw out the coffee grounds.
Speaker 3:So, regardless of the speaker, even if I'm listening to a John Maxwell, I'm always asking is what he's saying true? And I prefer to listen to more and more people where I'm going 99% of the time, or all the time. Wow, yes, it's a lot less work to filter here, because they're just spot on as opposed to well, is it, though? It's one of the ways that I define good or great books. If the book is just good, I'm like put it down. The world's full of great books waiting for you. You don't have enough time to get all the great books in. Put the book down. I started reading a book called the Four Agreements. I thought it was terrible, and I wanted to push through it just to see, hey, he's just going to help me change a little bit or tweak my philosophy. I'm like no, this book, just objectively for me, has things that I just diametrically opposed to.
Speaker 3:I'm like yeah, it's not true. So I put the book down. I think I'm good. Move on, I'm not explored. Moving on Right, right.
Speaker 2:Do you? You know, you mentioned before how, nowadays, with our social media, that everyone can be an expert and that that, to me, is perhaps one of the most dangerous signals that I see, because we have and we really do have experts in various domains. So we are people that have studied it, looked at the data, have analyzed the data, have seen things in that domain from so many different angles, way beyond most of us, you know, end up having as an opportunity or the time to do so. So to me, that kind of expertise is always going to be different than someone that has an opinion about it. But for whatever reasons, their degree of influence, their degree of charisma, whatever their degree of affability and affinity with what I come to that media with, you know, because I'm going to conformational bias right, I'm going to have a preconceived notion of what I think is true. And when I hear this, you know a guy or gal saying something like yeah, I've seen that too. I'm much willing to buy the lie that this person is an expert.
Speaker 2:How do you combat that? How do you? What do you? Is there such a thing as a magic elixir that can get people to do that? Critical thinking. Again, that requires, as you're saying, right, and it doesn't quite ring true, because I fear that too many of us are not even taking that step anymore. We're just saying, well, he said it and I believe him, and I believe it, and that's what I'm operating on. It's like, yeah, but did you look at all? No, no, no, that's all fake news, that's all right and I you know. Once you start doing that, then everything's up for grabs.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't get it.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's, it's super easy just to tune into my favorite channel for my news and not have to think, yeah, just accept it. And, by the way, both sides have it Again. I'm coming from Canada, where we've got four parties in the States. Here it's a little more binary right, right, left or right and I'm going to watch my news and I don't have to think, yeah here. Yeah, I love it when people I'm coaching, when they form the question and as they're doing it, they actually answer their own question. And you said it when you described critical thinking. And one of the reasons that we sacrificed to put our kids through classical private school was the whole concept the desire for them to learn how to think, not just what. And, of course, we hope that their core values are aligned with ours when they come through that. However, that has to be secondary to teaching them how to critically think. Right, so they learned logic.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:They went to the original source. Instead of reading somebody writing about what the slaves experience, they would read a journal from a slave. Right, they would go back to the original and then they learned by clashing and having debate and talking through those big ideas, sure, and with a logic tree, using simple math, even being able to come up with, well, this means this and this is this, then that can't be true. So if objective truth can be discerned, can be determined, right To pursue, that actually matters. And you asked about Veritas leadership group. The term Veritas is simply Latin for the word truth.
Speaker 3:I believe that if we ask enough questions, the truth can emerge. The truth can set us free and we can be able to get unstuck and move forward, whether it be business or life, etc. So, for our kids, what you can't do, the genie's out of the bottle. When it comes to social media, we're not going to undo web 3.0. This is a thing, and now we got AI on top of it A lie. Studying lies. Let's go. We have to be able to engage a critical mind to filter all the thoughts, because there's a lot of them, right, and regardless of whether somebody's got a title or not, we want to filter both. Right, I am more prone to believe a doctor, but that's more by generation. My daughter did a thesis at the end of her high school, like senior year, on the distrust of doctors right now. So here's a classic example.
Speaker 3:I'm going to put Tony Robbins on blast because people go oh, your leadership coach must love Tony Robbins. He's actually the one guy I've never attended one of his events or celebrated one of his CDs I was listening to one time. My wife is a dietitian, educated by science to know how the body digests food. Tony Robbins comes out and says hey, the same enzymes that digest meat cancel the enzymes that digest potatoes and you're having meat and potatoes. No wonder it takes so long to digest. And this is my dietitian wife. I said is this true? She said no, that's simply not how the body works. But Tony Robbins is charismatic. He's he's states of such conviction that it must be what it must be true regardless of what you know, spicy words, so science.
Speaker 3:Yes, he's not afraid of sentence and answers either. I'm just saying, at some point I'm like well, if he's wrong on that one, what else is he wrong with? Because my grandfather used to say there's never one cockroach, right, right, right. Well, he's wrong here. He's probably wrong in other areas. Flag on the play. Let's start paying attention to what's being said.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and you think about that too those personalities, that force of will is oftentimes what you know. You can look at and say well, they're just willing it to happen. I mean, they're, they're so convinced that they are right and that they have the answer that they're just going to push through, they're going to push down, they're going to, you know, push aside anyone that gets in the way of that. In that, that strong man or woman, you know, mentality is really getting a lot of traction and, as you said, it's not a new thing, it's just, you know, maybe it's just made it much more. We're seeing it in a lot more colors.
Speaker 2:It's like you know, an NBC in full color, you know well. Now we're seeing that.
Speaker 3:I'm not going to make many friends today the leadership community because I'm going to take a shot at Steve Jobs here today, st Steve Jobs right Right.
Speaker 3:Right. If you read his book, I'm like, oh no, yeah, oh no. So they described it as a reality distortion field going out from him, and when it worked, it was great. That's how it'll come. We're all on an iPhone right now, coming to you from Mac. However, there's many times where it did not work, especially when he's like gaslighting his daughter, especially when he's trying to gaslight the board and eventually they throw him out. There's certain things where that's not okay, that's not good, actually, that's terrible.
Speaker 3:Right In that case, the challenge being, if we study that and say, okay, well, it worked here and because it pragmatically was effective in this one moment, now we need to study Steve Jobs in executive leadership. I'm saying no, actually, that would be a cautionary tale of whoa. When we're not listening to our people and connecting with them, when we're not enrolling those around those around us, that actually is a terrible way to lead and we need to use that example. I'm glad I read the book still, but I'm celebrating Steve Jobs a little less at the end, right, right.
Speaker 2:It's kind of that. What's the model? I've heard people talking about the extrinsics of a leader versus the intrinsics of a leader, and the extrinsic is much more about the. You know order, get the job done, blah, blah. You know just, very objective, very. You know we hit this profit margin, we hit this goal. Everything is very and that's what defines right.
Speaker 2:The old adage of Andrew Carnegie must have been a fantastic leader because he was so financially competent and built such a huge empire. Works. Intrinsic leaders are much more about the. Well, yeah, but are our people feeling like they're actually growing? Do they want to be a part of what's going on here? Are they feeling safe and wanting to work together? And both sides look at that and I think, see, the other side is either weak or stupid. You know I'm not sure which thing. So do you, when you're working with leaders in your, in your, your tutelage, do you look at those sorts of things and just try to say, well, yeah, this has got applications here, this has got applications here. You've got to find your marriage of those two so that you can be as effective as you probably can be Does that make sense.
Speaker 3:So, as a coach, we're trying to be really curious as opposed to really decided or really judgmental. Even so, we're trying to bring a non-judgmental feedback loop to the scenario. That said, of course I've got to, I've got to bias one way or the other. So, as much as that is shaping some of the questions, the more open-ended questions I can ask and not allow them to just park where they're comfortable. We want to help them range out a little further from that. So here's where this often will will show its head. They'll ask a binary question like is this right or am I crazy? Is this a good strategy or am I way off? Here I could say, well, what else could it be? There's many other options. It's usually not just two options here. As we're working through what we could do here, what else could we do? What if we didn't have to be right? What else could we do? Hey, have you thought about this? So I'm trying to ask, sometimes leading questions to help them arrive at other possibilities for them then to decide which direction that they're going to take. And hear me right, unless they're running off a cliff, most times I'm gonna let them run where they're going if it's not the way I would choose or not, that doesn't matter. Sometimes they come up with ABCD and I'm going D's the option. They go I'm gonna run with a. It's an. Alright, tell me about a. If a went bad, where could that happen? Where could that go south? We work through it, we vet it. They're confident, they're comfortable in their strategies and they've got a great strategy now we're gonna talk again in two weeks. Well, if they were wrong? Sometimes we know in two weeks, as they scrape their knees a little bit, it's usually not a career ending injury might have to come out for a play, but they reassess. Sometimes we go back to the old pile of solutions and pick a new one. Sometimes we got to come up with a new board, right, but that gives us an opportunity to learn, but to learn quickly, if you will.
Speaker 3:Now, on the other side, I'll tell you well, I've had people where I'm like D's the answer. They go back to a and a Works and I'm like huh, that's crazy. No, I can't share that my job. Right, there's no way that work. That's amazing. No wrong response, right, we're coach. Experience coach says nice. Tell me more about that.
Speaker 3:Here's the thing. I have to trust that they know the map of their life far greater than I could. In other words, I'm not a consultant. As a coach, then I'm designed to really hold a mirror up for them and give them greater knowledge that if there is spinach in the teeth, they can see, that if they need to fix a hair it's out of place. I'm holding that mirror up, raising awareness so that they can make the choices. The good news is, when D At or a works for them, it works for them and it wasn't me that became awesome.
Speaker 3:That's also helped me function in Business areas or even industries where I have no experience. Maybe I learned the language and I can ask good questions, but what do I know about finance? And actually financial advisors has been the niche that we've got drilled down into. Sure, over here I've learned the language, you know what's an FIA, all that fun stuff, but I don't come up in that world. I came up in a sales world, so I can still lead because I'm not trying to be a consultant for them or a business guru.
Speaker 3:In my experience, they have the answers if they can slow down long enough, pause long enough to consider what the best moves are, what their strengths are and where they could go. That's when we get the magic. Frankly, part of that too, raul, is they're more likely to try the solution that they came up with. Yeah, I didn't have to sell them on it. Yeah, and if they meet resistance with that, if they don't get immediate success, they've got faith to push through that because it is there's right and keep mine. Before they left, we've added their plan, so I've gone through it together and now they've got where it used to be just the army of one. There's at least an army of two now. I'm Raven, waving pom-poms for them, sure, and celebrating their action and as they move forward. I had so much more satisfying than just deferring to Salted, if you will.
Speaker 2:And maybe it's because you've got some acting background too, but that you're, as you're saying things I keep thinking of, of acting and directing exercises that I use with people in, and that that makes me think of an exercise I found it can be really successful and helpful with people is that to ask an actor To say to me Okay, here's your line to be or not to be right, and then I'll say, okay, you need to now take that line to yourself and say where is the pause? And I'll give the example of to be or not to be, or to Be or not be, or To be or not To be. I mean, each of those pauses right in a different place Says a different thing. They're all it's exactly the same words, right, exactly, and yet the pause is what makes all the difference. So I use that as an example to say you need to realize where your pauses are, where you will be most authentic with the line, because that pause makes the most sense to you.
Speaker 2:So Translate that and I have people you know regularly. It's like no one ever said that sort of thing. I'm so well you know. Let me tell you, as a guy that has experienced a lot of pauses in life. I can tell you, I'm sure, that the pauses are some of the most important things that you do in life. So, anyways, sorry.
Speaker 3:From from acting. It really is, because words, they do matter, but so do the pauses. And I'll actually use that same analogy when I'm working with people to not send the angry text. They want to. They want to handle conflict via email or text and I'm like well, your pause doesn't go at the same place, theirs does. He said to be or not to be. They read to be or not to be. This guy wants me dead. Interpretation really does matter, and even taking that further by giving an actor an opportunity to have choices. So instead of the, there are directors that still do this. No, that's wrong, that's terrible. Instead of okay, I see what you did there. What if we put emphasis on a different word this time, at a different pause this time? What if you played with five different ways to do it, or all the possible ways to do it?
Speaker 1:and there, are finite number of ways for those Six words wherever it is right.
Speaker 3:There's a finite combination. Try them all and see which one matches the character's motivation best. Wow, now that's open-ended. Instead of like there's right and there was wrong, there's like there's still layers here of beauty. That's more the art, and that's where we need both art and science, right.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, it's the the beauty of quantum computing, right? Quantum computing, you, finally, computers, are gonna have the ability to not just do yes or no, but both. You know. So when you have the opportunity to do both, then there's infinite numbers of capabilities, or you know Possibilities which I'm curious to see how that turns out. So I hope I it's a little better. I mean really right, yeah, I hope it's better at discerning what's true and what isn't.
Speaker 3:Then then we are oftentimes Well, that's why we're always gonna need humans, and I'm a big fan of AI when it works for us. Again, similar to technology, right, but again the same thing that allows us to connect, I mean, across the country. At this point, it's amazing the fact that we get to do this. I forget that I'm actually in a studio in my basement in New Jersey. I've just been connecting, communing with you. What a time to be alive we're. Even four years ago, I used to ask people like Do you have zoom? I don't even need to ask that anymore. Right, things are coming up, but even when it comes to AI and technology, the hands of the user is going to determine whether that's used for good, what's used for bad again, including either.
Speaker 2:So we're gonna run out of time. Of course, that's what happens when I get talking with somebody I'm enjoying talking with. I hope you're enjoying talking with me. I'll got, who knows. But anyways, all that being said, do you, with your leadership, with Veritas, is there a screening test or just an initial interview test that you do that helps you determine and Helps the, the people considering using your services, helps you determine Is it a good fit, you know, will this work? Is this or is this a person that just is too far down or, you know, too entrenched in a way of thinking that they're probably not gonna be a good fit and vice versa. Things that you would encourage a Potential client to do to determine for themselves Am I a good fit with what you're trying to do right now?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, great question. You know, very often people can check out some of our material Myself, the other coaches, etc. And see if there's a vibe check. If there's a vibe fit right away, that's a good start. If they listen to a podcast that I've done and they go hey, that resonates with me. Chances are very good because I have been working really hard to try and have the same guy that I show up here Would be the same guy on the coaching session starting in 15 minutes. I want to be the same guy in both faces and it's not a fit for everybody and I get that.
Speaker 3:It's rare that I'll get on a call with somebody and we're just not a fit, depending on, maybe, what they're looking for or what I do. You know, sometimes people are really looking for therapy and that's not a fit in coaching. Resuming that somebody's relatively healthy, happy and whole, they really need to do some of that deep work. Boy, I celebrate a great therapist. I'm not done needing therapy right at some point. Right, that's a great spot for them.
Speaker 3:Coaching is a different, ethical together. Occasionally, though, and what I will encourage people is hey, at the end of our time together, this intake session, if we're not a fit, you'll have a better rubric to determine what you are looking for to find the right coach. That is important. This is one of the most intimate relationships that you're gonna set up. You get to choose, like every other relationship. In this case, I would say a Measure twice cut once. When it comes to your coach, you want to make sure you've got the right one, because this will probably be a relationship. In our case, it's more common that it's years than just weeks or months. Usually we have a very high retention rate Because we do typically fit sometimes people are looking for hey.
Speaker 3:I want the Tony Robbins. Whatever you, whatever the mind of a man can conceive it can achieve. I'm like, okay, I'm not your guy, I do have a buddy that does that type of coaching. Here he is and he's gonna be a fit for you. But, typically speaking, it usually is a fit by the time I'm dialing it with somebody and sometimes it's like, hey, it's a right idea, but the wrong time.
Speaker 3:Maybe they have the resources for it right now, at least them knowing where this is. And we do have a lot of free resources Between podcasts and YouTube and we're putting out a lot of content, you know, even from podcasts like this, to be able to help people get them unstuck, etc. But, yeah, I definitely recommend that you pay attention to who's mentoring you, who's leading you, that voice of reason, because things are gonna beat the screen. Right, we talked about the filter and our critical thought. Things are gonna beat the screen. We're gonna be influenced by those we're listening to. So let's make sure that the person that we are Attaching our wagon to goes there on a path that we want to be on sure, sure, and you better know what that path is. So yeah, do the gut check Right right.
Speaker 2:Folks, my guest today has been Trent Booth. Trent is the CEO and founder of an organization called the Veritas Leadership Group. Trent, where should people go if they want to know more about you, your group, your mantra, your special sauce? Where should they go?
Speaker 3:The website is probably the best place. That is veritasleadershipgrouporg. It might be easier to find Trent Booth. I'm on almost all social media platforms. If you search Trent Booth, you'll find me. Tiktok yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying to stay on TikTok. It's the one where it's not super relevant, but I'm the bent truth on TikTok. You'll find me there. Coach one time called me the bent truth, not Trent Booth. So if you look Trent Booth, you'll probably find me. Although at last search on Google, there were eight of us on Team Human, so I am the first. I'm the oldest of the Trent Booths. I'm one of eight at last count, but I'm the oldest. So Trent Booth Prime if you go to, veritasleadershipgrouporg or YouTube, linkedin, facebook, instagram.
Speaker 3:would love to connect with you there and if you're a listeners here, by the way, we would love to give them even a free 25 minute intake session. Hey, it's coaching for me. Could we be a fit? We'd love to provide that for them. There's a way to sign up for that on the website. Excellent.
Speaker 2:Well, and I got you be Trent. I'm the only raw brush on LinkedIn. Yes, yes, trent Booth. Trent, you're not in any relationship. I should have asked you this early on. Any relationship to John Wilkes Booth?
Speaker 3:I love the question, as defensive as it is, because I'm Canadian and when you just asked is this great, great, great great grandpa Did he? Is he an assassin? And the answer is no, okay, good, and ancestry DNA confirmed that. However, we live in the United States now and we adopted a Beagle who was named Nixon. When we got it, we thought that was cruel and unusual punishment, so we did rename him Lincoln. His name is Lincoln JW Booth. We're trying to bring the two sides together.
Speaker 2:Well, I really well see that's what the world needs now is mending offenses like that. So thank you, trent, for doing your small part in the Beagle. You're in our part, trent. It's been an absolute pleasure talking with you. I hope we can get together some other time. That would be wonderful to continue the conversation.
Speaker 3:Me too. Thank you, what a generous hose. Really appreciate your time, raul.
Speaker 2:Nice to meet you. You too, take care of folks. You've been listening to Frame of Reference. I'm Raul Abreche and you are not. And we've been talking with Trent Booth the Trent Booth, the first one Okay, he wasn't. He's not like one of those derivative Trent Booths, right, you're. You're the original, the real deal. So there are many variants, except no other. Thanks for listening. Folks. Hope we can tune in next week when we'll hopefully have someone nearly as charming I don't know that we'll have someone as charming, but maybe nearly as charming and wonderful to talk with as Trent has been. Take care.
