Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference" - Coming together are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
The Art of Outsmarting Big Business with SEO
Have you ever wondered what it takes to outmaneuver a billion-dollar corporation on Google's battleground? This isn't just a pipe dream, but a reality for SEO maestro Damon Burton, who joins us to share the electrifying saga of his ascension from car enthusiast to digital marketing virtuoso. Buckle up as we unravel Damon's story, where the sheer tenacity of a man and the transformative power of SEO collide, leading to a thriving business that champions the underdog.
Turning points are the plot twists of our lives, and Damon's came with the shock of an office raid that left him at a career crossroads. Opting to bank on his own potential, he navigated through the worlds of web design and SEO, armed with wisdom from influential reads and a personal mantra courtesy of Grant Cardone. This episode isn't just about professional gambles; it's a candid exploration of the conditions that feed our decisions and the personal tribulations that shape our paths, including Damon's own health challenges and the guitars that stand as silent witnesses to unanticipated success.
As if peering into a crystal ball, we prognosticate the future of SEO in the age of AI, dissecting how Damon preserves the humanity of content in a digital age. Balancing family life with sharp SEO strategies, he exemplifies how altruism and acumen aren't mutually exclusive in business. Immerse yourself in a narrative that stitches together a tapestry of authenticity, strategy, and integrity, demonstrating that the heart of entrepreneurship beats strongest when it's synced to the rhythm of ethical practice.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Welcome to Frame of Reference informed, intelligent conversations about the issues and challenges facing everyone in today's world. In-depth interviews to help you expand and inform your frame of reference. Now here's your host, raoul Labrèche.
Speaker 2:Well, welcome everybody to another edition of Frame of Reference, profiles in Leadership. I waited there to see if I could remember and if you would think I was not remembering which I hope you were, because I wasn't remembering that Profiles in Leadership was part of my title, which is a bad sign. But it's late in the day on a Wednesday, so I'm going to ask my listeners to please cut me some slack and I know that my guests will, because I've already just been talking with him a little bit and today's guest, damon Burton, is one of the more laid-back guests. I've gotten that vibe right away. He's just laid-back, he's got guitars on his wall. I mean, this is a person that just knows how to kind of, you know, do the 1950s beatnik thing and, just, you know, snap fingers and feel like dude, it's all right, just chill, just let the world, let life happen, baby. Okay, right, damon, am I reading that right?
Speaker 3:Totally, totally. Yeah, Congratulations on remembering the name of your show. Give you kudos for that.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that. I need the accolades that really do, the positive affirmation of people saying it's okay to be old and forgetful. As I tell friends of mine, I have some timers, sometimes I remember, sometimes I don't. But Damon is a husband, a father of three, and he beat a billion-dollar company by outranking their website on Google and from then on he realized he was on to something here and went on to build an international search engine marketing company that's worked with Inc 5000, shark Tank, featured businesses alike.
Speaker 2:So we're going to be talking SEO today, folks, search engine optimization. So if you've got a website, if you're thinking about having a website, if you're thinking about just you know, wanting to explore what it takes to make the web work and what makes a site popular, damon's your man. He's going to be answering some of those questions and a lot more. And what I love the most about it is you're also kind of the epitome of an entrepreneur. You have an idea, you gave it a try, gave it a whirl and it took off right and the process has proved itself over time. So I'm really excited to talk about it. I think that's just a great journey story, if nothing else.
Speaker 3:So yeah well, there's a lot of truth to that. And then I mean, if we want to be dramatic, of course I'm a theater guy, come on, yeah. So well then let me give you the little background right before I decided to give SEO a whirl and see if it was my jam. So my background was originally in web design, and the way that I got into web design is because I was into cars, and so I started a car enthusiast website, and as that started to grow, I said, well, how do I make this better? And so that's how I started to fall into design. And then I said, how do I monetize this? And that's how I started to fall into marketing. So then I did design on the side after I picked up that little bit of skill set. So that's where the side hustle comes in that a lot of us entrepreneurs have.
Speaker 3:But the sensationalized part happens when, so in addition to that, I had the day job and I worked remotely from home for a company in Vegas. One day I couldn't get a hold of anybody at the day job, and so this was before Slack and, if you remember, aol Instant Messenger, and so I was trying to get a hold of the team that way and all of a sudden somebody writes me back and says did you hear what happened? And I said, no, what's going on? I can't get a hold of anybody. Well, come to find out, the company got raided by the ATF and the FTC guns blazing movie scene and the business got shut down. So then I had a choice to make, which was see if I still had a job. So I had three choices See if I had a job. Two, go find a new job. Or three, bet on myself. And so that's the moment where I said okay, let's give entrepreneurship a try. And then you know, the rest is history. There's a couple of things in between there.
Speaker 2:That's pretty wild. That's the classic crucible story of the bird getting just pushed out of the nest and either fly or, you know, hit the ground and go splat right at that point. That's fantastic. Well, one of the things. I warned you about this ahead of time, damon, I like to start out with a little bit of my favorite things. Deal, rorschachian, totally, you can say something, you say whatever comes to mind. If you need to retract, I'm okay with that too. Don't feel like, oh no, blue, I don't like blue, I like red. That's totally fine. There's no censorship either way. But I'll try to make this as fun as possible. It's an opportunity for you and I to find out more about each other. So because I'll pipe into it. So how about your favorite comfort food?
Speaker 3:That's a Pandora's box, because I got an autoimmune condition a couple years ago. Oh, that's put me on a roller coaster of what I can and can't have. So my favorite food is anything that I can eat that tastes good and doesn't hurt me.
Speaker 2:That sounds like that's a pretty high bar, though, actually for you to have to get through. So my wife has immune disorders of that nature to autoimmune things. Hers tend to be more just physical incapacitation on things. Hers tend to be more just physical incapacitation on things, but her joints are being attacked by one particular thing. So autoimmune disorders are a lot more prevalent than I think most people realize. I'm sorry Boy. If I had found out that I had a disorder that said, okay, can't have any more pizza or something, I'd be like what? That's what happened. Yeah, how about your favorite book?
Speaker 3:There's two that come to mind because it had a big impact on my business velocity. I was reading Four Hour Workweek and E-Myth Revisited in a similar time frame, and I think a combination of those two is why I always think about it, because if you're familiar with them, e-myth Revisited tells you how to build a business that's dependent on processes and not people, so you don't lose the talent as they come and go. And then 4-Hour Workweek teaches you how to cut corners, and the interesting combination of reading those in a similar time frame is, I realized, well, you shouldn't cut corners until you know what your processes are, because then you don't know what's at stake. So I always think of those two kind of at the same time.
Speaker 2:Okay, so really fundamental principles that you were able to apply to just about any business, right? So fantastic. How about do you have a favorite?
Speaker 3:Let's kind of simply do you have a favorite bird?
Speaker 2:I know nothing about birds, nothing, not even a raven or a crow or a pigeon.
Speaker 3:The colors of them and the general shapes.
Speaker 2:No ornithology from you. That's fine. Do you have a favorite guitar? We're going to put you on the spot here now Of those two guitars is there a favorite I have to give the story of the guitar. That's okay, you's okay, no one else does.
Speaker 3:it's okay, I'll pretend it's brand new to me too. Okay, so I have guitars in the background if you're listening to this just on audio. And so what happened was, um, I've always enjoyed music and followed it into radio, so I did on air and radio for nearly a decade, and when the pandemic hit, I thought, okay, maybe this is an opportunity for things to slow down and I'm going to pick up the guitar. And so I purchased guitars and was ready to rock and roll, and then business just shot up literally within a week. So I bought the guitars. You know, the second week of March 2020 when everybody went, well, something's happening this week, so I bought the guitars. You know, the second week of March 2020, when everybody went, whoa, something's happening this week. And then I had, like, one client cancel and I said, okay, maybe this is a sign of something to come. And and then about four days later, business just started doubling and so I had about a four day window to learn guitar.
Speaker 2:And they're sitting there. They're back there sitting there, dude, you know we're still waiting, so whenever you feel like doing it, we're here to play with you. Okay, you have a tuner too, right? You don't have a, you can't even.
Speaker 3:I'll pick them up and I'll tune them and then I'll extrav for 10 minutes and then they go back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's better than some people do. Mine haven't been tuned in a while and I got a lot of excuses and no good ones.
Speaker 3:How about? Do you have a favorite quote, damon? I could probably give an answer on that one. Yeah, grant Cardone said and I'm not like a diehard Grant Cardone fan, but he had a quote that I found interesting, and it is along the lines of pay the price today so you can pay any price tomorrow. And so I remember in my early entrepreneur days I've had the agency for 17 years and I've also been married for 17 years. I've been with my wife for 20 years, and so we waited five years before we had kids, and so I had like this year or two window of having already been married but not having kids yet. But the business started. And so I remember thinking back to that timeframe before I heard the quote, thinking that similar concept where it's like, you know, I need to really put in the time now so I don't have to later. And so when I heard that quote years later, it really resonated to me about the choices I made early in entrepreneurship to kind of pay that sacrifice to buy the freedom later.
Speaker 2:Sure, Isn't it interesting too, as we look back on our lives and you see things that at the time this has been my experience at least that you look back and think boy, that was really hard at the time, but now, having all that time afterwards, I look that was really important, that I went through, that I'm really, you know, start to embrace those things, I think, in some ways.
Speaker 3:So I was going to add on what you just said. Yeah Is that you do it long enough and it actually becomes appealing, and so when you run into these struggles, you're like cool, there's something on the other side of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Very much. So how about do you have a favorite sweater or a favorite piece of clothing that just you when you put it on? Or you need lucky slippers, you know that kind of thing that just you when you put it on, or you need?
Speaker 3:lucky slippers, you know that kind of thing. So, um, uh, I I have one of my own company hoodies that is particularly comfortable, that I enjoy and seems to just fit right, and I'm not a swag guy either, okay. So, um, I was really hesitant to buy anything with our company branding on it, and but when, when we got it, we did it for a team get together and things like that, and it was just one of those things that just fit just right.
Speaker 2:Okay, do you have a let's talk mode of transportation? Do you have a favorite type of transportation that you like to? If you have an opportunity to do this or another in kind that you would always go, I'll take the boat or whatever another in kind that you would always go, I'll take the boat or whatever.
Speaker 3:I'll be probably biased on this one because historically in general.
Speaker 2:I don't have favorites, raul, you just take life.
Speaker 3:As it happens, I get it. But I can give an answer to this one because over the years, as I was fortunate to establish some reasonable success, I've never really been a materialistic guy. So all the money has kind of gone back into the company, or it's gone into what I call memories and legacy, and so it always goes back into what are opportunities for my wife and kids. And so we travel a lot and we bought a pool for the kids and things like that. So I've never really rewarded myself. We bought a pool for the kids and things like that, so I've never really rewarded myself. And so over the years, you go through the thoughts of well, if I were to reward myself, what do I really care about? And so I went through the, however, long time frame almost seemed like a mini midlife crisis of do I buy a watch that I don't?
Speaker 2:really care for. Like something inside tells me I need to buy a Rolex. Yeah, I just need more stuff. Yeah, good stuff, so I need to buy a Rolex.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just need more stuff. Yeah, good stuff. So I finally settled on a car and so I just recently bought an Audi R8. And so that's been fun to drive and the kids enjoy it. And what I enjoy most about acquiring the car that was unexpected is the conversations that it invites that was unexpected is the conversations that it invites.
Speaker 3:And so you get these people that will literally come up to you at gas stations and stoplights without words and saying you know, this is my favorite car, but I've never seen one in real life. Or I get text messages from the neighbors saying can you take my kid for a ride? They have a poster of that car on the wall and so it's really cool kind of seeing the conversations that have come from since acquiring that.
Speaker 2:Cool. It makes me think of that Seinfeld show, was it or who is it that does the two comics in a car having coffee, so, or what? Not Something like that? So I thought you know what an interesting concept to have. And they always have really interesting conversations, which I hope they're not scripted. And they always have really interesting conversations which I hope they're not scripted.
Speaker 2:They sure don't sound like they are so well, that actually ties to what I usually use as a final question is do you have a and it doesn't necessarily have to be your favorite one but do you have a memory or a life event that happened to you that when you run across things in day-to-day life, that, if it's, it might be a smell or it might be a you know particular painting sometimes that people will talk about, but when you see it or you experience it again, it brings you back to that and there's an experience there that either a memory or it's a, just a feeling that it evokes in you. Um, that you really find is, uh, you're happy when those moments happen because they kind of they recenter us, I think, in a way.
Speaker 3:Well, between now and seeing your beautiful face for the first time 10 minutes ago is always Raul, is is the epitome of happiness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so actually oh boy, there you go. You're lathering it on there, Damon.
Speaker 3:My office. So my office is, um, you know, I work at home and so it's it's in the basement, but it's mid ground level. So, um, my office window, the floor of my office, is three, four feet underground, but the window is a foot above ground. And so I can, you know, in the summer my kids are running around the backyard and playing around, and so I remember, a couple of years ago they'd play hide and go seek, and so they'd always cheat, they'd knock on my window and go dad, can I sneak in the office?
Speaker 3:And so, um, I eventually put in a magnetic screen so I could just open the screen. And I remember one time, play, you know, going out and playing with them, and I had just stopped in the middle of the work and, um, and I remember walking out thinking, uh, it was just one of those moments where I was like, you know, I just I just walked away from business and everything's fine and everything's going to be fine, and so it was kind of like a moment of peace of mind, and so, where I'm still in the office and the window is still there, and you know, that kind of comes to mind pretty often.
Speaker 2:That's cool. Yeah, there are. What is it? They say You'll you'll never, at the moment of our death, we'll never be sorry that we spent too much time with our family, you know, with the people we love the most, which is, you know, the big regret is I didn't right. So well, thank you for that. That's a wonderful memory. I'm going to remember that myself as being a thing that I'm happy someone had that experience. So so we'll segue into your business, as you've alluded to. So was search engine optimization. Was SEO something that was on your radar, that you had an idea for and you wanted to explore it or, I guess, explain even if people don't know that marketing term or that technology how you looked at SEO before, what your idea was for SEO and how you see it being optimized or how you're trying to use it in a unique way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so SEO stands for search engine optimization. Your goal is to show up higher on search engines for words that you could monetize, but you do it without paid ads, and so you do it by improving the credibility of your website, and so it positions higher than natural results. So it was not on my radar in the slightest. The way that I got into it is you know, I briefly touched on earlier about how I built a car enthusiast website and that's how I developed the skillset. And then I eventually kind of came to, I think you said, the crucible moment where it's like okay, I need to decide if I'm going to go get another job or or lean into my side hustle. And so my side hustle at the time was web design clients, not SEO.
Speaker 3:And what had happened was one of those design clients said what do you know about Google? And I said I know enough that I think I can help you, but not enough that I feel confident in charging you for it. But I also don't want to work for free. So what I negotiated with them as I presented an offer and I said well, how about I do work for free up until we hit these mutually agreed upon goals? And if we hit them, then you owe me retroactively and we start a retainer. So they didn't have anything to lose. It either didn't work and it was free, or it worked and, and then they got an ROI out of it. And then that way I also felt comfortable because I was dabbling in it, so I didn't have the guilt of charging them for something that didn't have a clear path on.
Speaker 3:But I was also incentivized for it to be successful, and so we ended up hitting those goals within a couple months. And then I was able to take that concept from client number one to another client that had actually introduced each other. So I said hey, I just did this for the other guys. Do you want the same arrangement? Don't pay me anything. I'm kind of liking this. Let me see if it works. And I was able to hit those goals with client number two. So at that moment I said you know, I know that I don't want to be an agency that offers at all. So let's see if SEO is something that holds my interest and I can be successful at it and drive a return for clients.
Speaker 2:And it turned out to be that it was. Well, it's a. It strikes me that it's a phenomenally complex thing in one realm and a very simple thing in another realm, I mean in terms of the. I'm struggling with this, but I know there's so many different factors or so many things that you're trying to, you know, sift through and get through in order to get your thing. But if you're simple about what it is that you're trying to capture in those things, to me it's kind of like a filter. You know, as long as you have the right things in your filter, then you just have to have a successful means of casting that rod and getting it. Am I oversimplifying it, or is that kind of the?
Speaker 3:I am actually really fascinated in your comment because you're the first person that has ever actually nailed it, and so usually it's like all on the other side of complexity. And so there is truth that there's a lot of things to SEO, but what happens with other agencies, or the clients of agencies, or the dialogue between the client and agency, is where it gets complicated is they're trying to look for loopholes in the algorithms and they're trying to cut corners. And so, instead of trying to cut corners on this large quantity of things, you distill it down to three simple perspectives. And so what you do when you take those three, those three, we'll call them buckets, right? And so bucket number one is your website structure, and so it's things like does it load quickly, is it mobile friendly? Is it a good user experience? That's not a complicated concept.
Speaker 3:So then the second bucket is content. You can only show up on Google for what Google can read. Do you communicate your products and services? Do you communicate your value propositions? Also not a complicated concept. And so then your third category is external credibility. Do other people talk about your brand? Do they link to your website? Do you have positive reviews? So all of the components, we'll say there's thousands of things that you can monitor, measure, do for SEO. All of them fall into one of those three buckets, and so if you just focus on those, then you don't get lost in shiny object syndrome, you don't get obsessed over algorithms, and if you just stick to those fundamentals. In fact, when algorithms roll out, our clients have never got a penalty, because we're not gaming the system and instead they're either maybe neutral, but generally positive on the other side of these algorithms, when everybody else is panicking because Google caught up to the pattern of them trying to manipulate the system.
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, it sounds to me too that it really puts the onus on your customers to determine and really figure out what do they want to be known for. You know what is the we used to say in my day? You know, the proof has to be in the pudding. So it's one thing to kind of see yourself as one thing, but you have to also be able to deliver on that.
Speaker 2:I don't know why, but I'm thinking of you know who I thought I was when I got married and who my wife has, you know, saw me as, and now who I have become as time went by and she said, yeah, no, that's not you. If that was you, then this you know. So I've had to redefine myself over and over and say, yeah, no, I do want to be what that is that I portrayed myself as. So I've got to make some shifts here in order to really be that, so that I'm not I think what you're saying I'm not gaming the system, I'm not trying to game her. Is that a process that you're able to help people kind of do that sifting and winnowing of their persona, their brand, if you will?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So it's a little bit of both on the client side and then the agency side. So ideally on the client side they have enough clarity in the product or service that they offer that they can go. Hey, seo is a long-term play, so I'm confident enough in the general path that I can commit to that long-term timeframe and not pivot later and waste all that time in between. Now do you have to have it perfected? No, you should have a proof of concept and then the SEO agency should be able to go.
Speaker 3:Okay, cool. Well, now we can take and reverse engineer the competition and so you can then look at all sorts of tools out there that go. What are? What are your customers asking about Google already about this product or service? So then you start to align the gap between the buyer intent, the pain points they have in the product and service that you offer. So you should have some clarity on what you either want Like you said, you know you're kind of future pacing yourself what do you ultimately want to be known for, or what can you ultimately monetize the most in the long term? And then that's where the agency can go. Okay, cool, now that I know what your vision is, then I can align everything else in between.
Speaker 2:Is there a process in there at all where the I guess I'll call it a gut check, where you say, okay, this is what you, what you're trying to get into, but is that really who you are?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, that happens all the time. So, like when we start digging into the data, what I tell clients is we try to remove the emotions. So my job is not to tell you the target or phrase that you can monetize that feels good. Mine is the my my job is to drive a return for you, and often I have to tell you you're wrong, and part of that is you know, because the data over here says no, and I can actually give you an example.
Speaker 3:So one of our first clients who's still with us, it's one of those two clients I mentioned. So they've still been with us for 17 years and it's an electronics manufacturing company and so before we started working with them, they do printed circuit board assembly. So the keyword is assembly at the end, because you can have printed circuit board companies and then there's assembly companies and what the difference is is one of them makes the circuit boards. So you know, for the layman's term it looks like a big microchip kind of thing and they go into electronics. Now what was happening before they came to us is they were spending 80% of their budget on targeting printed circuit boards. They don't sell printed circuit boards. Somebody else makes them, delivers it to them, and then they do what's called the final product assembly, the final box assembly, and so they were spending 80% of their budget, 80% of their time on something they literally don't even offer.
Speaker 3:But it really makes sense why they thought they should target that. And so what you want to do is look at it and go, okay, we don't want the thing that has the most volume, we want the thing that has the most relevant, and then if it also has high volume, then that's just a bonus. So do you ultimately want 7 in 10 visitors to buy your thing, or 1 in 10,000? I want the 7. Right?
Speaker 2:right. It's kind of an 80-20 principle, isn't it? That you do need to spend the 80% of your time on the 20% that's really profitable, kind, so kind of thing, instead of the other way around, which is kind of you know, this big net, that's all. Well, we could be this and we could be that, we could be the other thing, and it's like, yeah, but that's irrelevant, that's not you and that's taking time and energy away from stuff that is you. So how do you do that? I mean, how does a multi? I mean one of the things you have here is how do I build a multimillion-dollar business without any advertising, which does seem like total? I mean, that's like heresy, right? I mean there are probably. If there's advertising, people listening, they're going you're an idiot, kind of thing, right? I mean it's just yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, that opens up a different topic. So you know, ironically, for running a marketing agency, we don't do any marketing ourselves, and so we do the basics of the product that we offer to ourselves. But I'll tell you why we don't do it aggressively. So you know, as an SEO agency, the last thing I want to rank for on Google is the word SEO, and the reason why is just what we talked about you know, the Printed Circuit Board Assembly example Because there's two problems with an SEO agency trying to target the word SEO. One is that SEO, what are you trying to learn it? You know, are you trying to hire an agency? Are you trying to DIY done for you Whatever Right? There's a million different unqualified sources of leads related to the word SEO, and that's not where I want to spend my time, on unqualified leads. The other reason is probably 99% of people searching the word SEO are other SEO companies trying to rank for SEO, seeing if they rank for SEO, and so I don't want to show up for these other agencies. So, with that being said, what we don't do for ourselves, we don't do anything. So I don't have an email list, we don't do any paid ads, I don't have a funnel. I don't have any outbound sales mechanism, but we have consistently done multiple millions for years and the source of sales comes from only two places. Now, for the first decade of the business, it was purely referrals. You dial in a good product, deliver a good service, and then people let you into their inner circle. You get access to people that you wouldn't have otherwise.
Speaker 3:Then, a couple years ago, I started being more present on social media. A quick background story is I used to have a real hard line. I used to only use Facebook, and I still primarily only do. But I had a hard line where it was just for personal use and so if a lead or a client would message me, I would just ignore them and eventually, because I wanted that, that was kind of my you know my space, right, that was a way to detach, and so eventually what I did is I was really good about filtering the content, so it wasn't dramatic or anything. I just realized one day it was unproductive and so I shut it down.
Speaker 3:Now, if you know anything about Facebook, if you delete it it doesn't really go away. You can just log back in the next day. So what I did is I started deleting all my content. I'm like, if I'm going to delete this, I'm going to truly delete it. So I started deleting everything and it was taken forever. And so I asked my wife and she gets all the credit because she spent like three weeks deleting every post I'd ever made, deleting every comment I'd made on other people's walls, and then, in a true testament to the strength of your relationship is I gave her access to my private messages. Oh my Lord. So what had happened is she went through and just wiped everything out.
Speaker 3:Now, how this comes back around is, once everything was deleted, I had one client who got through that filter. They were a friend first, and so that's how they were already engaging me and then, now that I wiped it out, that was kind of our communications platform. And when I got thinking, if I'm going to turn this back on, I don't want to turn it on for just that, I want to be intentional about it. And so then, when I turned it back on, I said the first thing I said is you know who the heck are the 1500 people that I used to have as contacts, because I can only think of 20 of them now.
Speaker 3:And then I started going well, how do I share business and entrepreneurship and SEO related content without boring my friends and family, who historically were my only audience?
Speaker 3:And then, on the other side, how do I continue to talk about my appreciation for my wife and kids without boring a business audience? And I finally just said, I don't care, because those are both me and we'll kind of figure it out as we go and figure out what my voice is. And as I started publishing that content, um, coming full circle to the source of leads is, after about three months I started to notice I was getting some reasonable engagement. After about six months I started to go oh, I think I've actually had a few deals from this. And then, at about the nine month mark, I quantified it and it added $150,000 in annual recurring contracts. And so at that point I said, okay, well, this is obviously working and let's reverse engineer the components of this that are working and then figure out how to scale this as an actual business model. And so back to the original question is you know, we built a multimillion-dollar business purely off of a good product deliverable, and my social media content is me sharing why it's a good product deliverable.
Speaker 2:Content is me sharing why it's a good product deliverable. Isn't that interesting too? By by not trying to make a buck, you actually made a bunch of bucks. So that was a. That's an interesting reaping and sowing principle that you were, you were caring for I. I I've worked in a company that services farmers a lot in rural Wisconsin areas and there's a lot of focus there on just helping those people that are just working hard to feed the rest of us. You know, when it comes right down to it and I kind of see some parallels in what you're talking about you know you're just working hard to do something of quality for people that will help them and that has not only intrinsic, I think, rewards. You know, personally, when I've done that kind of thing, you always feel that sense of ah, I did some good today. But there's also the you know the culmination of how that trickles down right to all kinds of other people Do you oh sorry, go ahead, we must be business spirit animals.
Speaker 3:Because you know you're right, Like that's why I started doing it was just, it felt good. And then, as I got into the bunts down the road and I noticed I could quantify it, then that's when I said well, great, now it's the best of both worlds, because if I do this at scale, I can continue to help people and get that personal reward. And then if I can also use this as a business model, then then why not? No?
Speaker 3:great example is this morning I did a two hour presentation. So I my contractual rate is a thousand dollars an hour. So if you want to hire me as a consultant, I charge a thousand bucks. But I do presentations for free all the time because I enjoy helping other aspiring entrepreneurs, I enjoy helping newbie businesses become established businesses and there's a personal reward factor. And so I think it's important for entrepreneurs to kind of look at that parallel or that juxtaposition, because I think sometimes we get stuck if it's like one or the other Like I need to be the cheap guy or I need to be the expensive guy, and you can be whatever it is, as long as you define the context. So for me I'm the really expensive guy and less I want to help you because I think you won't waste my time.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Um, so I I keep thinking of this question and I'm not sure I'm going to ask it the way it really is inside of me, but here I'm going to go, I'm going to dive in here. Is there an attitude shift or a character shift that you think needs to happen in businesses that are not performing as well as they potentially could by adopting, you know, more of a methodology that you're trying to build with your clients? Is there a? Do we have to let go of something that is so entrenched in you know, contemporary American capitalism, you know in the free enterprise system? Do we have to let go of some you know widely held and deeply held, you know maxim, or you know belief, in order to make this work? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I think directly. There's a different answer for directly and a different answer for indirectly. So, do we direct? Is there something very specific for us to false belief to shed? I think that depends. I don't think there's a universal one, but indirectly probably something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because the majority of us think, especially when you're newer in entrepreneurship, you always think you have to be this mega company or follow the mega company's ways and or somebody's ways. Right, you follow somebody online and and so, but? But where the gap in between is the person you follow online. The reason why they're successful is not because they do the same thing that the other person does, is because they were dramatically different than everybody else, which rose them to the spotlight.
Speaker 3:And so I think there's that, that middle ground where we see the success and we misinterpret how they got there. The misinterpretation is that we need to copy that one. Instead it's we need to do the opposite. We need to do whatever our unique value proposition is or our unique story is, or you know, my model is probably the worst idea for somebody else, right? And so it's like, just because I'm saying it works for me doesn't mean you should drop everything and go follow it, and that's that's probably what a lot of us do too often is is try too many other people's things instead of trying to figure out what your thing is.
Speaker 2:Is there a process or a method that you try to use? Use the people so that they can I think of Shakespeare, you know to thine own self be true, to help a person figure out what that self is and how to be true to it.
Speaker 3:The answer is you know best, as I could generalize is probably in the question itself is a key word is truth. I think probably one of the clearest things that an entrepreneur can do and not only in business but in personal life is just be truthful to yourself. I mean, every time I've had the biggest growth, professionally and personally, is when I called myself out, and it's when it's like, okay, maybe that's not the path, and just having the humility to go. You know what I need to do something different, despite the time I've invested or the money I've invested. And it kind of goes back to the comment before, that of other people's ways are not necessarily the right ways, and so you've got to figure out, really, at the end of the day, what matters to you.
Speaker 3:For me, even though I have a successful business, I had an interesting comment on a mastermind about a year ago and I got up and we were kind of doing this round table and somebody said well, what took you so long? You know, because I've had agency for 17 years and and I didn't start making millions until after a decade. You know, I was comfortable, I was making hundreds of thousands, but they go. Well, it took you so long and I never thought about that. I wasn't offended by the question, but I knew the answer. It was just interesting to hear because I was intentional about it. But it was interesting to hear it externally. And so, as my business grew, I never wanted to do it at a speed in which it would sacrifice my sanity, and so I certainly could have got here a lot faster.
Speaker 3:Zero question, that was a possibility, but at what expense? Right? You know, I've been with my wife happily for 20 years. Um, we have great relationships with all three of our kids. I consistently take time off to go spend not only family time but one-on-one time. Um, I've never missed one of my kids basketball. Consistently take time off to go spend not only family time but one-on-one time. I've never missed one of my kids' basketball games, soccer games, my daughter's dance recitals, and so back to one of the comments you made at the beginning about when you asked me about a quote is I thought forward and put in the sacrifices ahead of the things that I was future pacing that would matter to me.
Speaker 2:Boy, what profits a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul? Right? I always think of that as being how many people get to the end of their life and go. I was wrong. It's hard to admit you're wrong. So where do you see SEOs going? I mean, is there a future casting that as quantum computing comes online? As I worry about the fact that we have so much realm of alternative facts. That to me, is like when I was a kid, we called them lies. You know, I don't know what happened there, but you know as the nature of reality changes, you know as the nature of what is truth changes, which has been a philosophical argument for thousands of years, right, but do you think SEO, and perhaps SEO combined with AI, can play a part in sifting and winnowing what is true and what is not?
Speaker 3:That's a loaded question, I mean, yeah, there's a lot to that. So I think we could answer it in two different views. One is how is SEO going to evolve from a business model? Is SEO going to evolve from a business model? And then the other is how is SEO, or search engines, going to evolve from a societal lens? Right? So, on the business model, a lot of people are calling doomsday because of AI, and I found the opposite to be true.
Speaker 3:Our businesses continue to grow at a faster than usual pace, because what's happening is it's the same old game of quality versus quantity, and so what's happening with AI is you can certainly produce SEO quote unquote assets at a more rapid scale, but at the cost of what quality? And then the next argument I'm going to hear from somebody is well, yeah, if you do it right, you should know the difference. Well, I think every piece of content that somebody's given me that they claim to be quality AI, I can still tell the difference, and so you know. You got to understand that there's a different level of expertise and who's looking at these content pieces, and the reason why I mention that is not to say that I'm an expert at understanding AI versus this versus that, but if I can very quickly identify an AI-produced piece of content, google's algorithms are infinitely smarter than I am. Google's algorithms are infinitely smarter than I am. And so we kind of did a little A-B test where we said we kind of crowdsourced the piece of content because I was curious to see what types of input I would get. And we're consistently seeing the quantity of AI-produced content increase in these crowdsourced pieces of content, and I can tell this by patterns.
Speaker 3:And so one example is I asked an audience. I said hey, we have a client that works in a depression therapy medical space and we want to do a crowdsourced piece of content on this very specific thing, topic related to depression therapy. And so I said if you want to be featured, send me your best piece of content on it. And out of the five pieces of content that I got, without even running any sort of checking tool, just at a first view glance, I could see the patterns in the bullet points from five different people who ran five different AI prompts who you know quote unquote did quality control five different ways, and I could immediately see the patterns. And so none of them knew the other person's submission or anything like that, and so I think the difference in you know.
Speaker 3:So, then, one of the next rebuttals I get is well, google says that as long as it's value added, then they don't care if it's human created or AI created.
Speaker 3:Well, probably, rule number one is do the opposite of everything that Google ever says, because they don't. You know, they're in it for a business model, and so what I've found over the years is is often they'll say one thing while they're positioning on the backend for another thing. And to kind of bring this home, there was an algorithm update way back in 2011 and 2012 called Google Panda, and it focused on unique content, and there was tools out there that you could copy somebody's content and then swap the paragraphs and synonyms, and Google's algorithm caught on to that pattern. Well, ai in its current state is largely just a more fancy version, advanced version, of those content spinners. I think the scale of AI content just caught Google off guard, but I think they're going to close that gap and come out with an algorithm 2.0 on that, and we'll see a big reckoning on AI content, and I could add a different perspective. I'll take a breather, though, on the value of human elements and storytelling.
Speaker 2:Well, I think part of what I'm getting at too. It got clarified for me as you talked which is a good thing tool for concretizing or solidifying or entrenching conformational biases which are, I think, inherently bad. You know, I don't good and evil bad, but just bad from the standpoint of a conformational bias, if left unchallenged, if left unbroken or at least cracked open, shuts us down from way too much. Now are there biases that are justified, of course. Are there biases that have been proven to be correct? Or good things to be biased about Not walking around naked through dangerous neighborhoods or whatnot? Yeah, of course that's a good bias to have. I'm not going to do that, it's not safe. But there are also ones that are being fed by, you know, the trolls of our society that I wonder sometimes if SEOs could be used as that same kind of tool to just entrench people even further. Do you think that's a real possibility? Do you think that's a real possibility? And if it is, is there a way?
Speaker 3:to break that cycle so that if we aren't getting too entrenched, that the search engine optimization would come in and say, well, but there's also this, and you know, keep you from getting to the point where you're, you know, immovable. Yeah, it already exists and it has for a while. Yeah, so you know, the first answer is from a business model and then this is from the societal view, and so it's already existed. Because my goal as an SEO is different than these shady guys we're talking about, and I'll explain the difference. So my goal as an SEO is to work with good businesses with good products and services, and then I can emphasize why they're good with good products and services, and then I can emphasize why they're good. Now other SEOs whether it's politics or religion or geopolitical things, they can use the same structural and tactical things that are used from a business model to also spread whatever information they want to spread. Now there's a minor scale example.
Speaker 3:I think some people are going to already be aware of this and believe it, and there's going to be other people that are going to go no, I can always tell the difference in between and have a little bit of doubt. One example is there's clients that we'll work with that are not traditional SEO clients, and so these are what we call reputation management clients. And so these are clients that have had. You know, maybe 20 years ago when they were young and naive they did something stupid, and so now when you search that name, then that's the thing that comes up that they're embarrassed and they've apologized for and they've paid their dues. Then there's ways that you can suppress that content and you suppress it by offsetting it with positive content. So you know, that's kind of the gray area where I give an example, because it's not spreading misinformation but again it's emphasizing. You know are now as a, as a new and improved person, but you can. So that is a gray area example. Then now you take that to the. The really obvious negative example is like the geopolitical things, and you can.
Speaker 3:If we simplify this, at the beginning of the chat we said there's three main areas of seo. One is your site structure. Two is your content. Three is your credibility. So if I want to push out misinformation that's really well written on a website that loads quickly and is mobile friendly there's the first two buckets then all I have to do is boost its external credibility and get other people talking about it and, as soon as I can, get other websites to link to it or get it to show up in the news, then all of a sudden it gets that credibility, which is what makes it show up higher on search engines. Now, anytime there's an election, just go look at the different types of people that are showing up. This doesn't have to be a presidential election. It can even be on a smaller county scale or state scale. Who's going to win is the person that hires an SEO company and positions them higher, because when you're doing your due diligence on somebody's qualifications, that person is only going to push out the stuff that sounds attractive to get them voted.
Speaker 2:Getting ahead of what's going to be and what's going to be wanted by people and making sure that you fill that spot. Is that Yep?
Speaker 3:exactly.
Speaker 2:Are there predictive models that are out there that would be able to help a person stay ahead of that curve? You know, I'm thinking of it from a business way, if you can see the next big thing, is there a way to look at your? I'm a big Star Trek fan and I always think of when you know Star Trek, after it left as an original series, kind of went into limbo for a while and they talked about bringing it back to the animated series, which you know largely. People said, but they, you know, then they were going to do a new series, a new series, a new series, and it just kind of went nowhere because they couldn't get it figured out.
Speaker 2:No-transcript, I just did a little copy of Star Trek. Are there particular things out there that you think SEOs or the kind of technology you're talking about can help people to get ahead and at least get an inkling of what it's going to be and then figure out? Do I fit in that in some way? Or is there a way for what we do to fill that next trend?
Speaker 3:I don't think that there's really. I mean, it really boils down to critical thinking. Do you have the ability to distill information from fact or fiction? Ability to distill information from fact or fiction? And so it's like there's some quote along the lines where it's easier to trick somebody than to tell them they've been tricked.
Speaker 2:Well, that goes for conformational bias too. So gee whiz.
Speaker 3:It's easier for you to just execute a trick or a bluff on somebody and never bring it up, and then it's done and you know it was truth because you did it, than it is to go. Did you know that you're wrong and I tricked you? And then you get in this big argument, right? So it's like you can't argue with stupid. What's that?
Speaker 2:meme. You can't argue with stupid. They'll just wear you down to their level and then beat you with experience. So I thought that's pretty telling. So well, Damon, is there anything that you want to make sure that people get out of having listened to Any like distilled information you want people to kind of think about? If they've got a website, they're thinking about getting a website, or whatever that they should maybe keep as a mantra as they move ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can give an answer and a resource. So you know, if you start exploring SEO, the main thing that you want to look for in qualifying an agency to shop around is transparency. And so, as you ask them things, can they give you a clear answer, not a vague answer. Can they give you a clear answer, not a vague answer? And so one of the biggest red flags for me that I educate people on is, if an SEO agency when you ask them how they do those three categories structure, content, credibility if they come back and they say the word proprietary in any capacity, then just run as fast as you can, because all SEOs have access to very similar tools. It's just who knows how to use the data within them the best, and so there's lots of things like that.
Speaker 3:So what I can leave the audience with is I wrote a book about things like that Like what do you ask in the agency? How do you make sure you don't get ripped off? How do you understand what goes into the investment of this and the time and the cost and what type of payoff it is? So if you just go to DamonBurtoncom, on there there's a free copy, pdf, no upsell, nothing, it's just there for the taking.
Speaker 2:Just kind of a roadmap for how to go about doing it, isn't it? So I actually went in and signed up for it. So I got my PDF copy and I can't wait to read it now, especially after talking. So, folks, my guest today has been Damon Burton. Damon is a husband and father of three. I think that's probably one of your number one job, right Overall it's being a husband and father. But he has a corner on the market.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say you've got a corner on the market of what's a really smart way to do an SEO. That is not something you hear often around these days. Not that there aren't smart SEOs, but his narrative if you go back and want to listen again or tell friends to come listen to it with you there are some real nuggets of just common sense. I think. Ultimately, damon is what I'm getting out of things, but there's also a sense of altruism that can be monetized and you don't, you know, I think there's. I don't know that you have to have either money or happiness. You can have both and have, you know both, a sense of doing something intrinsically good and extrinsically good at the same time. So I thank you for your time. Really, it's been a pleasure getting to talk to you. Hopefully maybe we'll get to talk again at some point in the future. That'd be fantastic. So folks have been listening to Profiles in Leadership, otherwise known as Frame of Reference. I'm Raoul LaRouche, damon, thanks again, hope to talk to you again sometime. Take care, pleasure. Thank you.
