Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
"Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership" and "Frame of Reference" - Coming together are conversational style shows with local, national, and global experts about issues that affect all of us in some way. I’m, at heart, a “theatre person”. I was drawn to theatre in Junior High School and studied it long enough to get a Master of Fine Arts in Stage Direction. It’s the one thing that I’m REALLY passionate about it because as Shakespeare noted, “all the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players”. Think about the universality of that line for just a moment. Think about the types of “theatre” that play out around us every day in today’s world. The dramatic, the comedic, the absurd, the existential, the gorilla theatre (it’s a thing, look it up) that is pumped into our Smart Phones, TV’s, Radios, and PC’s every minute of every day.
Think about the tremendous forces that “play” upon us - trying to first discover, then channel, feed, nurture, and finally harvest our will power and biases in order to move forward the agendas of leaders we will likely never meet. Think of all these forces (behind the scenes of course) and how they use the basic tools of theatre to work their “magic” on the course of humanity. Emotionally charged content matched to carefully measured and controlled presentations.
With that in mind (and to hopefully counter the more insidious agendas), I bring you the Frame of Reference "Family" of podcasts, where the voices of our local and global leadership can share their passion for why and how they are leaders in their community and in many cases, the world. Real players with real roles in a world of real problems. No special effects, no hidden agenda, just the facts and anecdotes that make a leader.
And at the risk of sounding trite, I sincerely thank my wife Ann and my two children Elisabeth and Josiah for continually teaching me what leadership SHOULD look like.
Frame of Reference - Profiles in Leadership
Confronting the Lies of Christian Nationalism
This week Antowan and I come together in a candid conversation, we tackle the pressing issue of our nation's division and the discomfort surrounding the name of Jesus Christ in today's culture. We feel the urgency to rekindle the inclusive and compassionate core of Christ's teachings, a topic that resonates deeply with those who yearn for unity amidst the fray. Our heartfelt discourse delves into the need for a collective embrace of these values, transcending political lines and societal boundaries.
This episode is not just a discussion; it's an introspective journey through personal failings, the church's stumbling blocks, and the intertwining of faith and politics. We share our vulnerabilities as we grapple with the complexities of scriptural interpretation and the guidance of spiritual leaders. With the rise of Christian nationalism and the historical schisms within the church, we highlight the essential call for love and equality as cornerstones of the Bible's message—principles that must guide us in navigating the murky waters of ideological distortions.
Our journey culminates in exploring discrimination and the profound impact of Martin Luther King Jr.'s legacy, which compels us to confront the dark corners of inequality with the light of understanding and mutual respect. We urge our listeners to take personal responsibility in educating themselves about governance and societal coexistence, aiming for a world where love is the central message that connects us all. Join us in reflecting on the power of unity as we strive to live authentically in our faith, fostering a society where hearts are changed and lives are rescued by the simple, yet revolutionary act of love.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
let's have it, ladies and gentlemen, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome.
Speaker 1:I'm raul abrash and I'm Antoine Holman Sr and we are Frame of Reference coming together.
Speaker 2:We have to do that like as a song Frame of Reference coming together, something, right, can we work on that? Maybe a four part harmony theme's gonna come in soon, right? Okay, yeah, I'll get my daughter to come in and get Ramona and we'll do four part harmony there. Man, it'll be like it'll be happening. So, anyways, folks, welcome. Thanks for joining us again.
Speaker 2:Uh, those of you that are out there listening, you know that uh, my brother antoine and I uh we're trying to be straight shooters about a lot of the issues that are are confronting our nation and, uh, trying to come at it from a unified perspective. This is not. We are not Democrat heavy. We are not Republican heavy at least I hope so. We are ideal, happy. We are Church of Jesus Christ, happy and slanted. That's what we're striving to be, folks.
Speaker 2:So if that name makes you uncomfortable right now, I just want to encourage you. One of the things I have noticed about the name of Jesus Christ over my lifetime and I'm almost 64, so I'm no spring chicken but one of the things that I have noticed is that you can talk about Buddha, you can talk about Muhammad. About Muhammad, you can talk about really pretty much Confucius, any of the other major figureheads of what we would call you know religions. You know that have those traditional, you know figureheads that they are following Jesus Christ makes people uncomfortable and I've always thought that that's really interesting. Some of that, I believe, is because Christians in general have done a lousy job, frankly, of displaying who Jesus is, because Jesus was not the one that well you know you need to be saved and you need to be the Son of God. You know they have that sort of righteousness that just makes people uncomfortable, that sense of you know we are different, that sort of righteousness that just makes people uncomfortable, that sense of you know we are different. No, we're not. You know we're really not. We're sinners. We struggle with the same things everyone struggles with, and to adopt that philosophy is to adopt and forget about the log in our eye and the speck of dust in others. We are called to be the people that are at the well, waiting for the woman that's been married seven times, and talk with them about what else is there in life. We're there for the Mary Magdalene's. We're supposed to be there for the tax collectors and all of those folks that need to hear who Jesus really is. So that's who we are. So if you can get behind that, if you're willing to hopefully listen to where we're coming from, that'd be fantastic.
Speaker 2:But my brother, antoine, across the screen from me, he had this idea which is here we go, folks to talk about, probably for the next couple episodes, the state of our nation. So we're doing a state of our union and in next couple of episodes, the state of our nation. So we're doing a state of our union and in my mind it's a state of our disunion address and hopefully we're going to provoke some conversation. Hopefully we're going to provoke some condemnation, honestly. Hopefully we're going to promote some consternation I'm doing these C words you like that, antoine, so you know and hopefully some confirmation Wow, and Lord's bringing those words to me, that's not me Of what is going on.
Speaker 2:How did we get to this point where we are so, so incredibly polarized, so incredibly antagonized, so incredibly? You know, just fueled. I mean literally fueled. It's like people have been pouring gasoline on the fires that have been in our hearts, the discontent that's been in people's hearts in general in this country for years. We're just pouring fuel on it. We're just saying get burned, baby burn, and at what cost. You know, scorched earth doesn't work well for anybody, you know.
Speaker 2:Try having a marriage with the kind of you know, well, my wife does it Well, my husband does this Well, my husband does this Well, you're just terrible. You B-I-T-C-H Well, you B-A-S-T-A-R. Don't help anything. Try doing that. Try doing that in a marriage for so long. If you don't care about the marriage, try it, see what happens.
Speaker 2:But we supposedly, on both both sides of this equation care about our nation. We care about people. When there's a problem in a country like Haiti gets wiped out, we are people that stand up and go help those folks. That's who we are. So when you want to talk about make America great again, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that presence that we have had for years and years and years. Let's not talk about the wall. Let's not talk about that presence that we have had for years and years and years. Let's not talk about the wall. Let's not talk about, you know, having daca. Let's not talk about those things that just inherently, have been used so often to polarize us. Let's talk about what unifies us. Let's talk and that's what we're hopefully going to get at right, I, I, I'm just talking, I'm blah, blah blah.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, antoine, you have something to say do your thing so, uh, I had to do my thing right, do your thing yeah, mr, mr sidewalk prophet, that's me, mr soapbox, I'm, I'm, uh, mr clean, you know, arm and hammer, that's that's what I be. So, uh, no, I, I don't. I'm just trying to share perspective and I hope it resonates with some people. I don't.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and and and again. It's like, uh, talking from the heart is, uh, you know, talking from the heart is what is needed right now. Uh, especially when it's an open heart. You know it's a, it's a yes, I'm willing to tell the truth but at at the same time, I'm willing to receive the correction on my end. You know what I mean and that's where I think what we're all falling short a little bit. You know, it's like, uh, I can, like you said earlier, we can point out the speck in the brother's eye, but not look at the plank in our own. I could tell you about you, but what about me? And that's where we are.
Speaker 1:And uh, you know, but again, um, going back to some of our first, very first episodes, you know we're talking about what's wrong with the country and why is these things happening. Of course you know I said that, hey, I blame the church. You know I blame the church and I hate to use the word blame, but you know is the church is supposed to be the beacon of light, the beacon of hope, the beacon of unity and compassion and empathy. But you know, it has become more of a politicized entity now. You know, of course, like we're talking about.
Speaker 1:You know what's going on in the world, in this country. It's just a spirit, it's just a me, my, I spirit is a spirit of division, is a spirit of chaos and dysfunction, is a spirit of just distraction, is a spirit of projection. There's a lot of you know what I mean. There's a lot of finger pointing. There's a lot of my truth. Is the truth going on? And of course, our Bible says hey, you know, let God be true and every man a liar, because every issue pertaining to life is in the Bible. But lo and behold, we know this that a lot of people don't read the Bible. Even people that go to church don't read the Bible. They get their infilling from the past on Sundays, and then that's that.
Speaker 2:Well, we pick and choose, right, we pick and choose the passages that fit our agenda. You know there's a lot of stuff that gets pulled out that, honestly, a lot of it is Old Testament, which is problematic in and of itself because, you know, old Testament is only really revealing who is to come in New Testament.
Speaker 2:So if you are going to take that as the biblical truth and not recognize what Jesus did to fulfill that truth but also to counter it with the new gospel, the new message of God. You're missing a fundamental point that we, as Christians, need to be careful of. We're sliding down a really slippery slope at that point and I think about like I'm suggesting this may be one of our focuses, because this is probably a several message podcast, trying to keep it down to bite-sized pieces but make America great again. Okay, let's just take that apart for a little bit. When I hear Christians consistently entrenching themselves in that and entrenching themselves in the primary issues that have been associated with it and that are proudly displayed as what it's all about. And you think about the wall, fighting crime, you know getting. You know trying to do something, to do something to make us, you know, preeminent in the world again. You know. You know figureheads that say things like if Russia wouldn't try this, if I was in office, or North Korea wouldn't try this, if I was, I would take care of this in office. Or North Korea wouldn't try this. If I was, I would take care of this. The strong man you know philosophy and the extrinsics of the whole argument.
Speaker 2:When you think about that, where are the Christians that are saying make Jesus great again, make Jesus integral again? We complain about prayer not being part of schools, but if we do our job as Christians, our kids are going to want to pray in school, you know, and whether or not they can publicly get around and kumbaya together, you know they will be praying in school. If we do it right with our kids, they're going to go to church, they're going to go to school, they're going to go everywhere in their life and we're going to hopefully teach them that when you encounter someone that really ticks you off or is just a complete jerk, that you will pray, that you'll pray for them or you'll pray for the fortitude to stand up against them. You know, with social media, you know the things that are happening there, even in our small community, the kids that are killing themselves because they've been bullied so much. Where is the church? We're looking to, you know, school system to solve things that the church can solve and, frankly, I think the church has the only set of tools that will work. So where are we? Where are we and I'm speaking to myself as much, because I could just as easily go to a school board meeting. In fact, I've been feeling called to do that and I haven't. So I'm being disobedient and not doing it.
Speaker 2:But the reality is church, get it together, get it together. Your allegiance is not to Donald Trump, it's not to Joe Biden, it is not to those people. Your allegiance is to Jesus Christ, and he sets a completely different example than either one of them. They got pieces of it, perhaps, but you're putting people in an equation, in a hierarchy that they cannot be in. People in an equation in a hierarchy that they cannot be in it, doesn't you know we don't talk about.
Speaker 2:You know, even those of us talk about church, family, god, family and then country. Even those of us that talk about you know well, god places authorities in our life and we're supposed to subject to them. You know that whole phrase means a whole different thing. You know that that whole phrase means a whole different thing. Than he came into the world, god gave his only begotten son so that people would be able to be brought to him. So how is, how is donald trump, how is joe biden more important than that? And if this is making you upset as a Christian, praise God, because that's the Holy Spirit working in you going.
Speaker 2:I'm not that way, okay great. Why do you feel you're not that way? Let's talk. Let's talk. I'll tell you how I'm failing. I know I am every single day, probably every moment. My wife will tell you, my kids will tell you how I fail, but I know who I believe failing. I know I am every single day, probably every moment. My wife will tell you. My kids will tell you how I fail, but I know who I believe in and I know when I, when I have those moments where I'm soft enough to say God, I am screwing up royally. Please help me when I'm weak. You're strong. Please be strong for me right now, please.
Speaker 1:Please. Yeah, just going back to the original point I was going to make you know, of course, um, but I was saying that the you know, it's like I hate using the word blame the church, but at the same time it's like this is where a lot, a huge source of everything in our community, is supposed to come from. You know, of course, uh, but the bible does tell us plainly in that day, even God's elect will be deceived. And one of my favorite books, or one of my favorite chapters in the Bible is John, chapter eight. And this is where, right after Jesus forgives the adulterous woman, you know, they come to him who are you to forgive, and this and that? And the other thing is like, well, he's telling them who he is, but they refuse to him. Who are you to forgive, and this and that and the other? Then it's like, well, he's telling them who he is, but they refuse to believe him. And he's like, if y'all would, if they're like who is your father? And he's like I am he. And then it's like, well, we are children of abraham. And he's like, if y'all were children of abraham, y'all know me and y'all know my father. And he's like y'all, y'all are your father's, the father of lies, the devil, and so, basically, in even in present time, uh, just, what's happening in the church today, you know again, I just, we just try to implore people to read their bible, you know, and if you don't have an understanding, that's where you need to reach out to a pastor or a church leader and say, hey, sit with me, help me understand this, break this thing down for me, because I want to do my best to be obedient. You know, of course, what did Jesus say? He's like if my word abides in you, you are my disciple, indeed, meaning, if my word is in you, if you're committed to me, if you are abiding in me and my word is abiding in you, you are my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. And of course, you know again what is that truth? It's the living word and, of course, the word, the Bible, is coming to life in present day, all these things that we're seeing. You know, right now, the church is standing before God's altar. I had this picture of just a church standing before God's altar about presenting strange fruits. Remember what happened to Aaron's first two sons? They went and burnt incense and it was a strange fire before the Lord, and that's what happened and that's what's happening now.
Speaker 1:We're mixing politics and church and that's not how it's supposed to be. You know, we got different sects of churches actually forming militias and things like that, and then it's like we're taking the word and we're perverting the word, like you said earlier. You know we're taking cherry picking scripture to fit what we're trying to do, but the thing is God says he will not, he is not going to justify your nonsense meaning. Of course we tend to say OK, we're going to be obedient to our version of what I read versus sometimes. The Bible is very plain Love your brother. This commandment I leave you with. Love one another. You know, and we can't be selective in this. You know, and we can't be selective in this. And this is where I believe that when we were talking about, you know, the issues in the country, it starts in church Because, again, going back to when the Southern Baptists separated from the Northern Baptists, because the Southern Baptists still didn't want to give up their slaves.
Speaker 1:And you know, and it's like even now, present day, it's like you actually have sex of churches saying we are white evangelicals or now we have Christian nationalists and the underlying problem with that is hate. You know, of course you don't want equality or equity for all people. You want to be exalted. You feel like you're losing part of the country. We're all minorities here now. We all are. I would say we're coming to a space where this thing is almost evenly yoked, so to speak, when it comes to a race standpoint. But it is again the love people piece is what's missing, and but also the nullifying of God's word. You know, of course you take, you take. You know I gave this analogy before you take an apple. Apple a day is good for you, right? Apple a day, keep the doctor away. But yeah, if you add caramel and M&Ms and all this other kind of stuff to the apple, it becomes deadly caramel and M&Ms and all this other kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:To the apple it becomes deadly.
Speaker 1:How about insects?
Speaker 2:Let's add worms to it. Okay, how about that? Put that apple set Right. You know, you keep saying you're having a problem with blame and I keep thinking. When you talk about that, I think about conviction. I don't think it is, you know, and I think I understand the resonating of that in the conviction that you have. It's because it isn't. You know, god doesn't do that sort of thing. He convicts us through his Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and that's the thing.
Speaker 2:To research his truth, to look closely and to stop and pray. Lord, this anger that's in me, you know, this strife, that's not.
Speaker 1:And that's where, and that's why I was saying, like you know, with that apple right, either you're nullifying the word one way or the other. Either you're adding to it or you're not omitting, or you're omitting from it. And that's where it's like. You know, again, a lot of people will actually warfare against God. They'll go into spiritual warfare. God is trying to correct them and he's showing them their way, but they'll be like, oh, that's not of God. And it's like, yes, it is God trying to correct you, but you won't receive the correction. And instead of accepting the truth or just accepting that correction, we double down on the lie.
Speaker 1:And then again, it's like the Bible says, for whatsoever is in a man's heart, so is he in his behavior. You know, and of course, again, it's a heart issue. We teach, hey, for whatever's in your heart is between you and God, just like, say, you and I sitting across the screen, I would say, hey, whatever's in Raul's heart is between him and God. And what's in my heart is between me and God and of course, and based on our relationships, is what's gonna come from us. You know what I mean. That's what's exhibited in the world and of course, we are to exhibit his likeness and image. Right, we're predestined in his likeness and image. We are to replicate and duplicate his image throughout the earth, but again it's like what we're seeing and God is love, and so we're not seeing love, but we're hearing scriptures thrown all over the place, but we're not seeing love.
Speaker 2:Put your money where your mouth is. Huh, put your money where your mouth is baby.
Speaker 1:And the sad part is, you know this thing, the racial divide, the biggest racial divide, is in the church and it's spilling over into everything else, where it actually should be the exact opposite. The church should be unified, you know, preaching the same message, you know, and yet we're preaching multiple different things. You know, and it's a scary time.
Speaker 2:I keep thinking of that scripture that I think I've told you before. That was on my wife's and my wedding invitation and not my idea, hers. Ok, let's make that clear. And it's, I believe, 1 John 6,. So in the epistles, and he says Beloved, let us love one another, for everyone that loves is born of God and knows God, or knows God and is born of God. So that scripture to me has always been so compelling as a lightning rod and a motivator for even the predestination things we are predestined to be Christians, and Christians will use that as see, I'm special. Right, I was predestined, but I put that together with. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should have eternal life. So to me, predestination is about everyone is predestined to be with God.
Speaker 1:And that's why he said, for God so loved the world. He didn't say God so loved Christians, but God so loved these different groups of people. He said the world, that the world might be saved, right. So when you say white nationalists.
Speaker 2:When you say you know Christian, you know nationalists. When you say white evangelicals, seriously, guys, christians out there that are listening, that are part of those movements, ask yourself what is white doing with the word evangelist? I mean, for goodness sakes, jesus wasn't a white man. Look at that part of the world, for God's sakes. I mean you can say he's a Caucasian. Iranians say they're Caucasians. Iranians say that they're part of that whole mix because they're not really black. So right, I don't get it. Why is that word, why is that okay with anyone to have that word blended with evangelist? Evangelist means someone that carries the good news, doesn't say and just carry it to the white people. That's the white people, okay, you know, even Jesus.
Speaker 2:Even Jesus comes and says to the rabbis, to the Pharisees, to the Sadducees he says this message is no longer for just the Jewish people. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that any who believed in him would not perish. He meant when he talks to Paul, when the Holy Spirit, when Jesus talks to Paul, he says, yeah, it's everybody now, and even the apostles, the Jewish apostles, because they were all Jews. Right, what? What are you talking about? You know, that kind of reaction to the whole thing, that can't possibly be. We're the chosen people. What is this white nationalism except we're the chosen people? Come on.
Speaker 1:At this point. This is going beyond scripture. This is going beyond the pulpit. At this point. This is this is going beyond scripture. This is going beyond the pulpit at this point. It has now become a political sect. You know, of course, a lot of these churches and these major, major men of God or preachers are standing behind an entity and allowing this entity to. They say that this entity is Jesus or he is the, and it's like get out of here.
Speaker 1:When this person has not chosen he has not exhibited one fruit of the spirit, not one and and, but. The thing is, there are, they are getting behind this, because he makes it easier to project or to say their idea of how the, how the country should be like. You know, of course, you know, trump. He pushes, you know, got rid of Roe, he is actually pushing this. He says things that people, some people, want to say but just can't say it. You know, then, of course, now you got the people that are in his corner, in his sect, so to speak, are saying things like DEI is death or DEI is this. It's just they replace the N word with DEI.
Speaker 1:Anything that goes for the advancement of color people, or indigenous people, or Hispanic, latinx, whatever, or transsexual, it's frowned upon. Like that conservative society? I believe it is, of course, these very groups of people. They shun and they create laws and try to marginalize, like, say, black Lives Matter, whatever organization that's trying to put a spotlight on social, racial, economic injustices. They are getting sued this, that and the other. Like that one conservative society, the same thing that they're fighting, uh, to stop. They have been doing for centuries Now. Like that one group, they, they basically have an office in the Supreme court and their whole job is to sue or sue everything that is for the advancement, like there was a nonprofit. They were just like hey, we want to give a um, minor women of color, uh, grants to go about trying to build businesses. They sued and said that this is discriminant against white people. And these are the things that are going on.
Speaker 1:But these people are they say they are christian people. We want to, we want to uphold Christian values in the country. When we're talking about Christian values, we're talking about equity. Equality because God said I will bring all nations to myself, not just some, but all nations to myself. He said that. He didn't say I'm just going to bring some.
Speaker 1:But this is where, again, you just cry in prayer. I just cry because it's like Lord, what can we do to fix this? Or what can we do to make people understand? Because you and I talked about this before, regardless of what side of the aisle you sit on, you know, uh, republican or democrat, whatever, these are very smart people. They, they could actually be nice people at heart. But it's like what are? What are you missing? Or what am I missing that Makes you think it's OK to take away the rights of other people and women and to just say anything you want to marginalize or demonize another group. If we don't agree with you, we hate you. That's what we are right now. If you don't agree with what I'm saying, I hate you, and that's not what it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2:Right? Well, isn't it Martin Luther King? I'm paraphrasing here when we talk about discrimination, one of the things that DEI was trying to address was Martin Luther King's saying of injustice against one individual is injustice against all people is injustice against all people. And so when you, you know, we want to quote Martin Luther King you know I've seen a lot of politicians want to you know he's a central figure that represents good things, honestly good things, and a movement that pushed us forward. So everyone wants to align themselves with him by using the same phrases of his over and over again. But we forget things like you know injustice, this is injustice, and this whole discrimination thing. I'm sorry, I got to take a little issue with that too.
Speaker 2:Discrimination as a word, okay, it means that you're making a, you're identifying the differences between things, you're using a discriminatory view to be able to determine how things categorize in your life, but we turn it into a tool to segregate. We turn it when you hear people fighting against DEI and fighting against white discrimination that is using it as a tool to polarize. And fundamentally, there is nothing I think inherently wrong, morally wrong, with the process of discrimination. What's wrong with it is the utilization of the word discrimination and there's a real profound difference there that when we can't understand, when we can't discriminate that these people that are being treated in one way, that are people of color, are treated differently than these people that are white, if we can't discriminate those differences remember this is not just a you know a thing about using it as a tool. It's using it as an opportunity to say, well, yeah, there, if I look at those things very clearly and objectively and honestly and humbly, there are. We are discriminating. We're discriminating in a lot of ways. We're discriminating in some ways that benefit one side of the equation and are a deficit to the other side of the equation, and we ought to be honest about that. That isn't a threat to you white people. That is not a threat to you. That's an opportunity to be honest, to look at the history of this country.
Speaker 2:I don't want to feel bad about America. I never had slaves, but that's part of who we are. We've got to embrace the fact that we were, that. We are trying to work away from that. And yet there are forces, there are people, there are folks with an agenda that are trying to keep us there. They're trying to keep it from happening. They're trying to resist the fact that our calling again as Christians is to do if we want to say we're a Judeo-Christian country, which that's another whole topic. Because look at the four, you know founding fathers and women of this country. Some of them were born again fiery, some of them were marjorie, lukewarm, and some of them just no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not me, that's not me, but I do believe in this righteous liberty, all the things that we need to jettison from King George in that world and have a better society here. Anyway, I get off the point.
Speaker 1:Well, when we talk about that discriminant word, you're right and it's like you know, we like to be able to understand the differences in and, of course, but when we use that word, discriminant is basically taking away from you know, whether you're taking away a right, you're taking away a voice you want. Believe I've shared with this before. You know, it's like, you know, it's just this position of this, almost like this position of power Most white men take, where it's like, if I disagree with you, you is just there's like this puffed upness, you know, and it's like, hey, no, I'm just disagreeing. You know, it's like, and it's like, automatically there's this hierarchy or this standard, like you are here and I am here, and it's like, no, we both right here, we're supposed to be, you know, and that's where, when we like, when you are talking like that with different people, and it's like you know you just watch this. No, just again, this is just me being a black man you just the stance a person will take when they come in front of you and the wording you know. Of course, I don't think people are stupid, I think people are very smart. So I think I believe that when words are chosen, they are very carefully chosen. And so it's like when you're having conversations and it's like, right away is there's this stance, you know. But again it's like we're in a space now where, hey, we want to be heard, we want to be understood, and yet people, there's a people saying, you know what, stay in your place, and and we're not there anymore.
Speaker 1:But we got to come to a space where it's like, hey, I'm willing to listen to you. I need you to be willing to listen to me. And we have to come, we have to work this thing out, we have to learn how to live life and do life together. And the Bible tells us, you know, in Romans 12, one of my favorite quick, another one of my favorite quick chapters. But it says for as much as is up to you, live peaceably with all men. That means, for much as you are responsible for, try to live peaceably. So that means you're responsible for doing research to know what is right or wrong, what is the truth and what is a lie. And it's like you know we're talking about this before.
Speaker 1:I say for as much as it is up to you, go and learn the basic functions of government, so when, and the offices therein. So when someone comes to you and say, hey, the reason we can't do this is because of this, you will know in your own mind, in your own heart, that that's not accurate, because this is how the law of the land works. For as much as it is up to you, just, hey, take the time to just understand another person's plight. We've talked about this before Understanding another person's plight, understand their hurt, their struggle, their mindset, their perception of things, and even going as deep to understand why they feel the way they do.
Speaker 1:And it's just for as much as it's up to us, we have to just be willing to be patient with other people and take the time and listen and learn their way and understand their way. And now, granted, there are some ways people are just not willing to reason at all, you know. They're just not willing to reason, like we see MAGA. You know there's no reasoning with that. You know there's no reasoning.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you come down to. Well, I'm going to reference this, so I open the door because we're already in almost well, we're over a half hour talking, so this is why that's a bit multiple part thing, right, but one of the things I'm going to try to reference over the next few pop uh podcasts and I'm putting a shameless plug in for the book. But there's a man by the name of tim alberta who has written a book called for the kingdom, the power and the the Glory. So that title may put some people off but it's a reference to the Our Father, which most folks know, that prayer, anyways, he is the son of a white evangelical preacher that was a very successful businessman and early on in his middle age, I think in the 30s. Yeah, there you go. That's the book. Tilt it a little bit. It's in the light. There you go the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory.
Speaker 2:American Evangelos in a period of what is evangelism In an age of extremism? Okay, american Evangelos in an age of extremism. Okay, american evangelicals and evangelicals in an age of extremism. Anyway, so he's the son of a man who successful businessman from what I can read into it, making good money, being a good provider, and he all of a sudden has this revelation that I need to be a preacher, I need to do this, I need to go get retooled so I can do that. Does that process? His wife supports it, you know, I'm not sure. He'll probably live off savings for a while or he's working at Walmart, who knows. But he ends up getting his divinity degree, goes to Michigan so transports everybody, I believe, from Pennsylvania and they go out to Michigan near Detroit, if I remember. But it's like a suburb of Detroit, a pretty affluent area. So it starts a small church or comes to a church, is relatively small and built it to a really big church. I mean that was quite mega church size. But in our area, you know, we have a couple of bigger church like Lake City Church and Black Hawk Church in the Madison area. I get the feeling it's that level. I haven't looked it up, but anyway.
Speaker 2:So he grew up in that church. He grew up in that environment of somewhat fundamentalist but an evangelical church, before that was even defined as what kind of church are you right? And his perspective? Then he became a journalist, became essentially a religious editor. I forget what one of the major magazines I think Vanity Fair or somebody that had a you know, had a one of the major publications that had a person that was reflecting on that part of our culture the folks at the 700 Club and the folks at Trinity Broadcasting and trying to get a Christian perspective from major Christian media outlets and the like of what was going on in the Christian church and wrote a couple of books. And now this book has come as a result and it's a result of him recognizing, after his father retired and eventually he dies, but when he retired he had gone through a bunch of people to replace him and he found a guy that he just a young man, probably in his thirties, that really had the fire, he had the discernment, he had the ability to recognize that the gospel message is a message for everyone and the discrimination between what is of God and what is not of God, and just sounds like a really the kind of preacher most people would walk in and go. Yeah, I like what this guy is saying, not because it tickles their ears, but because he makes sense and he seems to be the real deal. So here he has, this new guy and both.
Speaker 2:He, tim Alberta, goes to speak at his father's funeral. His father's funeral, goes to get his eulogy and he makes a comment I think that's where he made the comment about Rush Limbaugh. Okay, we could go on and on about him, right, but talk about somebody pouring gasoline on a fire. Boy, rush was really good at that. So he says something and he immediately got like lambasted. He got a letter that was written to him that they don't exactly I don't remember that they share the exact wording, but he's so like upset by the letter and he shows it to his wife and his wife reads it and she crumbles and says what the hell is wrong with these people. And his wife is usually like you know, for use the the word hell, it's like me f-bombing all over the place. People are using language like that um, but she, that's how mad she was.
Speaker 2:Well, the same thing with his chosen the man's chosen successor starts happening because he starts trying to edge people towards the, the things that they need to look at in what is happening with the Christian church, and people are really upset. People start leaving in droves. People are, you know, initially they had been just going to Tim Laberda's father and complaining about him and saying you got to do something about this guy. But then, once he was gone and they didn't have that conduit anymore, they just really started coming at him because there was no filter there anymore. And so he's watching this man of God get like pulled down, more and more and more, discouraged, more and more and more. He said, you know, basically they kept in touch and he but the pastor said I don't think I can take this any longer. This is just getting so, so bad.
Speaker 2:And the Alberta had, of course, experienced the same sort of thing and he's just kind of reflecting. I said what is wrong with us, what's going on? And the pastor says we have begun and we do worship America more than we worship our God. America has become our golden calf. And I thought, boy, I think that is it. I think there is this when we say make America great again, let's make Christianity great again, let's make Jesus Christ a reality in our lives and be the essence of what is going on around us. Let us be the essence of Christ. That's what we need to make. So and I'm going to challenge anyone who maybe is getting upset Maybe people who would get upset about this would never listen to this podcast.
Speaker 2:I get it, but share it with them. Okay, but let's ask them hey, when you look at Mr Trump, do you see Jesus Christ? You alluded to that right. Do you see the fruits of the Spirit, jesus Christ, or do you see jesus christ? You alluded to that right. Do you see the fruits of the spirit, jesus christ, or do you see a pharisee? Which do you see?
Speaker 1:but donald trump is not even a pharisee, because he does. The word of god is not in him.
Speaker 2:I don't believe, uh but I mean, and neither was it really in the pharisees, was it?
Speaker 2:you know, know. I mean, they had all the appearances of being religious and following the word of God, but they were no better than the Jews that got led away by Nebuchadnezzar to Babylon. You know, in terms of how they were, you know, trying to make themselves and do holier than thou, I mean heck. They wouldn't have been able to crucify Jesus if it hadn't been for their holier than thou. You know who is this man to tell us what we should believe. As the chosen people of God, we are the leaders of that.
Speaker 1:Well, if you look at that versus even now, as what you were just describing with Tim Alberta's book, you know a white man or you know calling out a white church, and then what happens? They shun them, they run them through the ringer. And same thing with our Lord and Savior. Of course they had the images of, they had the appearance of, but not the heart of. What does he say? You honor me with your lips, but your heart be far from me. And that's kind of like where we are in a lot of instances.
Speaker 1:And but I what I like, when you were talking about Tim Alberta in the book, you know I'm looking forward to the read. You know, of course, when I saw his interview and he was explaining, uh, what happened, you know, and it's like, yeah, he went to bury his father and then of course, he something, then of course everybody came against him. He's like I ain't telling you nothing but the word of God with. And it's like I'm I'm giving you the word on you and I'm holding the denominational value. I'm holding that, I'm a set aside the denominational bylaws and I'm just going to give you the straight word.
Speaker 2:And a lot of people can't handle the straight word and I'm just going to give you the straight word, and a lot of people can't handle the straight word. Well, and if you have issue with that, if you have issue with him doing it, where's your counter-biblical argument? Where is it? And let's check it.
Speaker 1:It shouldn't be one.
Speaker 2:When we let people like pick a little piece that fits their agenda and we don't look at it in the entirety of the Bible. You know, that's where you really, I think all of us need to challenge ourselves. You know, are you being dissuaded by one? You know? I mean, let's look at what was the thing we talked about with food. Was it not grits? It was greens or something. I was talking about black food that I didn't get, and what was that, bro?
Speaker 2:uh, collard greens yeah I think it was collard greens and I was like I don't see how anyone could like that. They're weeds, aren't they? I mean kind of thing. And you start telling me about how that was prepared by what wasn't your grandma. Or there's a recipe and you start telling me about how she prepared it and what happened. And I'm like I got to try that, so, and that's, I think, kind of what happens with some of this.
Speaker 2:You know, christian framing, the Christian frame of reference okay, is that we pick our experience with something and we translate it into all of it. We try to take our experience and make it the entirety of what there is. So when I hear someone that says I'm firmly Trump, whatever, I'm not saying you idiot, what the hell you know, which is what a lot of the libertards and the Maggites do right, I want to say that's really interesting. Why do you feel that? Why do you think that that's true? I mean, have you considered that there's this too? Because there is always a larger picture that is not being discussed, because we want people to stay on our side of the agenda. We want people to contribute, to give us the power to move the needle.
Speaker 1:I'm asking you again Christian church.
Speaker 2:I'm asking you again what needle are you moving? Are you moving some political figure's needle, or are you truly moving the needle of the Holy Spirit, of the Word of God? Show me, show me which one you're doing.
Speaker 1:Show me, show me which one you're doing. And the thing is in the underlying principle of the Bible. You know, of course, our Lord and Savior Jesus. But what? What are we called to do? Love people. And if people can start to really love people, it would limit a lot of the things that we are facing right now the discrimination, the exclusion, all these different things, the inequities, the inequalities, all these things.
Speaker 2:If we love people, if we can just simply get to that part of, even if we can just hold on to that part of the message of the Bible love people.
Speaker 1:I just will start to be in a much better place.
Speaker 2:I'm looking up a song that I can't remember who the artist is. I want to see if I can find it, but the verse of it is consistently love God to love people, love God to love people. I want to find that. Love God to love people. I want to find that. So if there's anyone else here that's listening, that wants to hear what I think has to be our sort of our preeminent calling, oh, I hear what I can Well remember.
Speaker 1:I think you mentioned a book in 1 John, but 1 John 4, right, right 4, 20 and 21. If anyone says I love God and hates his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? Yep, and this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God must love his brother, also Right. So if you say you love God, you got to love me. You can't say you love God and hate me.
Speaker 2:So it's Love God, love People, by Danny Gokey, which makes complete sense. Danny Gokey's from Milwaukee. Come on, man, milwaukee. Or as we say in Milwaukee, milwaukee. It's a two-syllable word, okay, milwaukee, milwaukee. So I got to take that middle syllable. It's an extraneous syllable, anyways, right. So, dude, here we are. It's been like 50 minutes or something. We warned people, though. It's part one, okay, of the state of our nation, but I want to get you out of that chair, because I know my brother.
Speaker 2:Don't worry about that, Well you just had some surgery, man. There's no sense in making you suffer.
Speaker 1:We're all going to suffer. I get it, but making you?
Speaker 2:suffer when we can keep talking. We don't have to just get it all done today, darn it, you know right. So you've been listening to Frame of Reference coming together and I tell you that's what we could do as a country. Stop polarizing, start coming together, coming together under the oh, started playing. So that can be, that can be our. Our rallying cry, right, is to do do everything we can to come together. Love God, to love people. Why not? The alternative is pretty ugly. So, bro, see you next week, I hope.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 2:And what's your name? Again, I forget.
Speaker 1:Antoine Haldeman.
Speaker 2:Sr Antoine. We got to find out about that name too. We can talk about our name sometime and how we got named, what we got named. That would be a good thing. So but and we're Frame of Reference coming together, like I said, hope you all have gotten something out of this, hope you can maybe let your neighbors or, you know, friends of yours know hey, listen to these guys, think about what they're saying, you know, because what's the sense if you're not going to get the word out of who Jesus Christ really is right? So, and at least think about it, even if you're not, you know, a quote-unquote Christian. You love people. Here you go, there you go, see you, dude, behave.
Speaker 2:All right man. If you can't behave, be careful. Get my best for the wife and we'll talk more next time.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and you do the same man the road that keeps breaking. But if we wanna find a way to change it, it all comes down to this.
Speaker 2:Love God and love people, cause love is patient, love is kind, rescues hearts and changes lives. Love is all we need to make things right. Gotta, keep it real simple. Yeah, it's really so simple.
