Episode 34 - Men and Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport with Martin Lerma

In this episode, Nicola and Florence welcome the very first man to be a guest on the All In Podcast, to discuss RED-S and its presentation in males. Martin Lerma, a creative director and editor working in fashion and fine art out of Brooklyn, NY, describes his experience with RED-S as well as his recovery journey.

To find out more about Martin, please visit https://www.martinlerma.com/

To find support in your HA recovery:
Get the "No Period. Now What?" book at noperiod.info/book.
Get the French version "Je n'ai plus mes regles" book at noperiod.info/livre
To join the NPNW English support group, please visit noperiod.info/support
To join the French support group, please visit noperiod.info/communaute
To make an appointment with Dr Sykes and get individual support to get your period back or improve your fertility, please go to noperiod.info/appointments
To make an appointment with Florence Gillet and get help with the body and mind changes happening in recovery please visit www.beyondbodyimage.com

You can find us on social media
No Period, Now What? on Instagram in English
No Period, Now What? on Instagram in French
Beyond Body Image on Facebook
Beyond Body Image on Instagram

Email us  via allin@noperiodnowwhat.com

If you enjoyed this podcast and found it helpful, please drop us a rating and a review to help more people find it. 

Original Music by the Andy Shulman Band "Lost & Found" available on Spotify. 

To find support in your HA recovery:
Get the "No Period. Now What?" book at noperiod.info/book.
Get the French version "Je n'ai plus mes regles" book at noperiod.info/livre.
Get the German version "Keine periode - was jetzt?" at noperiod.info/buch.

To join our support groups, please visit noperiod.info/support
for English, noperiod.info/communaute for French, and noperiod.info/community for German.

To make an appointment with Dr Sykes and get individual support to get your period back or improve your fertility, please go to noperiod.info/appointments
To make an appointment with Florence Gillet and get help with the body and mind changes happening in recovery please visit www.beyondbodyimage.com

You can find us on social media:
Instagram:
@noperiodnowwhat in English
@jenaiplusmesregles_livre in French
@keineperiodewasjetzt in German

...

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to All In a straight shooting, science based podcast about periods, fertility, and nurturing health outside of unrealistic beauty expectations. We will mostly, but not exclusively, focus on hypothalamic amenorrhea, HA, a component of relative energy deficiency in sport, formerly known as the female athlete triad.

I'm Dr. Nicola Sykes, scientist and author of the book No Period, Now What? I specialize in helping people understand how their eating, exercise, and lifestyle habits are keeping them from hormonal health and their best life. My work focuses on regaining periods, improving fertility, and breaking free of the rules underlying diet culture.

My name is Florence Gillet. I'm a certified eating psychology coach, a former HA patient, and an [00:01:00] advocate of health at every size and body neutrality. I help people let go of their obsession with size and appearance to regain self confidence, finally appreciate their bodies, and live an overall fuller, more joyful life.

Every two weeks, the All In podcast brings you real recovery stories, expert insights, and new scientific research on HA, hormonal health and fertility, with an unmissable touch of body respect and women's empowerment. Just a reminder that this podcast represents the opinions of the hosts and their guests.

This content should not be taken as medical advice, it's for informational purposes only. And because each person is unique, please consult your primary care practitioner for any medical questions. Music by the Andy Shulman Band, available on Spotify.

Nicola: We have talked before about how hypothalamic amenorrhea is a component of relative energy deficiency in sports, [00:02:00] also known as reds and as a side note, when I

went to the female athlete conference last June, they're now calling it Reds instead of Red S, so that's just a little note for everybody.

So today our guest is my former client, Martin Lerma, who does not have a uterus. So therefore cannot experience HA, , but this is why the broader umbrella term of REDS is so useful and appreciated. So Martin, welcome and thank you so much for being here with us. Could you introduce yourself briefly for our listeners?

So a little bit about who you are and what you do and, you know, your life hobbies, all, all that kind of thing.

Martin: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you both so much for having me. I'm a, you know, avid listener of the podcast. And as you said, obviously we'd met before. so it's nice to chat with you both. so like you said, my name is Martin Lerma. I'm 32. I'm based in Brooklyn, New York. I'm a creative director and editor working mostly in, fashion and also some fine art.

 and, oh gosh, in terms of hobbies, you know, I'm an avid movie nerd. I love cooking. , I'm also [00:03:00] big into, like, my Pilates practice. ,

Yeah, I guess that's sort of, you know, off the top of my head.

Florence: awesome. we're so glad to have you on. Thank you, Martin, for joining us. so most of us with REDS, , acquired the condition from a combination of underfueling and overexercise in an attempt to control our physical appearance. Can you tell us a bit about your story and how you came to experience REDS?

Martin: Yes, absolutely. So I guess, there are a kind of a couple of ways I could go about telling this. , I will sort of mention maybe the longer view only because I do think it plays so much into the more immediate lead up, , into, , devolving into that condition, so to speak. , but I promise I'll be brief.

I won't, , monologue for 20 minutes. But, ,

Florence: You, you can, if you want to. 

Martin: I, I appreciate that. , but, , so I only mentioned because I do think it's relevant. So basically growing up from the time I was an infant till the time I was about eight, , I had pretty bad acid reflux and while I was not, , [00:04:00] throwing up every meal I ate, I threw up a good percentage of them. And, , so I grew up extremely disconnected from my hunger and sort of like upon all the, all the reflection that this process has brought about, I realized I had a completely unintentional and involuntary, but very real kind of binge purge cycle that that disease induced. , and so when I got treatment when I was eight years old, I was finally properly diagnosed. , I really ballooned up in weight quite a bit because, as I mentioned, I was so completely divorced from any natural hunger cues or signals. And, you know, kind of kept putting on weight all through middle school, high school. 18, I came to New York for the first time for my first internship. Which was an incredible experience, but being, you know, a young person, I was completely broke and, the internship was very active. So it was a combination of, you know, not eating a lot. And then also just, you know, running up and down seventh Avenue with 50 pound garment bags on my back. And in my, in my like eight, gosh, what was it? Maybe like seven week internship or something. I lost 20 pounds. , and that [00:05:00] was, which is a lot for that timeframe. And, , that was the first time in sort of in my life I'd seen the scale go down. And I think that was sort of like a marker that really was like, Oh, like, you know, if you just like, don't even exhaust yourself, that's how you do this. And then you get into college and, you know, exercising becomes kind of like a social thing.

You go with friends to the gym and, , and that is fun and has its camaraderie. , and then, things sort of more or less stayed stable. I was, you know. I guess you could say like, , casual observer might say looks pretty slim, you know, for my, throughout my twenties and then sort of coming up to the pandemic and when lockdown really hit, I think like a lot of people was like, Oh, like I'm not commuting.

I have the time, I'm really gonna just sort of like buckle down and, dedicate myself to this whole thing and, I don't know, trying to achieve all those, , illustrious goals that, you know, I've had forever, , like so many of us. And so, you know, I started running a great deal more, which I'd always dabbled in, but I had never done with any consistency and never for, extended periods of time. [00:06:00] And so it was doing that. So like in the mornings, and then I would like still do Pilates sometimes at the end of the day. , and that continued. And then I don't know, it was, it's over time. It's, it got sort of like more intense and I sort of felt an onset of symptoms, you know, slowly begin to creep in and then by, I think it was by the end of 2021, , I was like, Ooh, something's wrong.

And that sort of leads up immediately to where this whole process started for me.

Nicola: Okay. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you were feeling in your body at that time? Like what was feeling wrong for you?

Martin: Totally. So one thing that was just like pervasive and persistent was just an overwhelming sense of fatigue at all times of the day.

, and yet not being able to sleep. So I would add when it was what I call like the depths, like what was it? It's worse. You know, I couldn't fall asleep before say like 1 30 AM, but I would wake up at like [00:07:00] five 15 with no alarm

and. 

Florence: enough.

Martin: I know, it's not nearly enough, and I'm someone who, even as a teenager, I always took my sleep so seriously, so that's very unlike me. and, you know, another thing is that I was always cold, which was, for me in particular, my mother's nickname for me growing up was The Furnace, because I'm one of those men who just like runs hot. And , always emits like, inordinate amounts of body heat. and plus I grew up just outside of Chicago, so I'm used to winters that are, you know, negative 17 degrees Fahrenheit with the windchill. So for me to be cold when it's, you know, 55 degrees is very strange. , I also I don't know. It was, it was a whole myriad of different things.

And then it was almost sort of feeling like that period when perhaps you've like caught a cold, but you're not quite symptomatic. You just never feel quite right.

 that was pretty much constant. And, I'm sure there's like a bevy of other things, you know, you and I discussed a little bit, I'm like forgetting, but those were sort of like, , the chief ones.

And then of [00:08:00] course, toward the end, that's when like my hunger was getting so intense and extreme. And I think at the time I was, I had really been sort of interested in the idea of intuitive eating. And I think I had, I had tried to go in that direction earnestly, but had just a lot of wrongheaded ideas about how to approach it. And so, you know, I was eating consistently, but just things that were not calorie dense enough, not supplying myself with enough fuel for the day. And so obviously, as you both know very well that added up over time.

Florence: Okay. And I'm just curious whether you actually consulted medical professionals at that time, and if you were actually officially diagnosed with REDS?

Martin: At the time, actually, no, I didn't. And I don't really have a good reason as to why I didn't. I was just sort of like, this needs like a resolution. This needs to be addressed like right now. The other thing is too, I [00:09:00] feel like probably for a lot of people in general, but I would imagine maybe men even more so, there's something about these types of conditions that somehow seems. I don't know, perhaps like a bit segregated from your normal like medical practitioners and your normal sort of checkups, etc. This is sort of a, I guess, an odd analogy, but I was listening to a dermatologist once and she was explaining that, you know, we often talk about teenagers or whomever who struggles with acne and the acne is sort of cast off as this thing that you'll buy certain products from the drugstore, et cetera.

And she was like it's a real illness. It's a skin disease that she as a dermatologist treats. And she's like, it deserves to be taken seriously. And I felt that there was, kind of something similar that I could relate to in regards to this stuff. It just sort of seems, just not as familiar to a lot of, you know, mainline medical practitioners.

Florence: Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, I, I don't know if you know about this, but in the data that's out for eating disorders in men, [00:10:00] outside of reds, just anorexia, bulimia, whatever you suffer from, we estimate that it can take up to seven years for men to be diagnosed. , Because it's also, there's a bit of a kind of gender difference.

You know, we feel like it's a 'female' disease 

Martin: Mm. 

Florence: obviously not because it's a mental health condition. So last time I checked, we had similar brains. And so I think there's a bit of stigma also around not just the eating disorder per se, but also the mental health. We still grow up with the idea of like, you know, boys don't cry or all of that stuff.

So I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense and is in line with I think what a lot of men unfortunately suffer from and that's delay and getting appropriate treatment can actually lead to really terrible consequences. So

I'm glad you actually [00:11:00] managed to somehow identify it.

Martin: No, I was very lucky, you know, through both of your work and, you know, Dr. Nicola's work to just, that it was percolating in the ether and that I happened to come across it. So I'm very, very lucky.

Nicola: So, backing up just a little bit, ,

one of the other male clients that I've seen came to me because he noticed a difference in his libido. Is that something that impacted you at all or?

Martin: For me, I wouldn't say, no, I don't think that was too much of an issue. You know, it was interesting though, for something totally unrelated, actually kind of get like semi regular blood work like every four months or so. And what I find really interesting is having whole like CBC panels and like liver and all of that stuff, you know throughout even like the worst of this all of that data was in the normal range of what

those tests showed.

But at that time I didn't get any testosterone testing or that kind of hormonal testing. And I'd be really curious to see, cause I'm positive that was impacted. I [00:12:00] just, I don't know to what degree, but

it's all good now. I know that. Yeah.

Nicola: yeah, it is, it is interesting that for, well, there are some people with REDS or anorexia or bulimia or whatever, who do experience sort of noticeable changes in those, those types of CBC panels, the liver enzymes. Most of us don't, and so it's

really only the reproductive hormones that are impacted. And I think I've, I may have mentioned this before, but I thought it was really interesting when I started learning about the impacts of reds in men that LH and FSH are also affected in addition to testosterone. I think it's really interesting because those are two hormones, you know, they're called follicle stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone that have completely different functions in male bodies.

You know, obviously

you don't have a follicle to stimulate. So it's interesting that those hormones were actually named for their function in a female body, but, they do obviously impact the reproductive system in men. But I think that [00:13:00] those are just, those are very rarely tested in , people who are not defined as female.

Martin: Totally. And I don't know what your experience is, but I sort of feel like there's a general, I don't know if resistance is the right word, but maybe indifference to sort of having those kinds of things tested, at least like in men in particular. Unless if you were to say like a 55 year old man or 60 year old man who's experiencing symptoms of aging and testosterone lowering. But, otherwise it sort of seems like no one really wants to peek under the hood in that department,

Nicola: Yeah, 

yep, 

Martin: so to speak.

Nicola: Yeah, I don't know that there are even very good normal ranges, for those, and certainly they're not tested very frequently. 

 So that was a little side. So can you tell us a little bit more about once you sort of realized that you were feeling fatigued all the time, and you had this hunger that seemed excessive to you. What were your next steps? How did you find out about the idea of All In and, what was the process of going there?

Martin: Yeah, so like I said, it kind of been [00:14:00] percolating, you know, I've been sort of like reading little blips about it here and there. Certain people, Stephanie Buttermore definitely helped make that sort of come to the surface more. And so it was just like hearing and reading like little things and I don't, something resonated with me right away.

It didn't perhaps quite click that it was like, Oh, I need to maybe investigate this further or embark on this journey. That took a little bit of time, but once I did, I really never looked back. I'm a good student. I really, I really just sort of like dove in and it was an experience. It was really sort of strange to take the reins off and just sort of like, okay, I just need to eat. I'm so hungry. I've been so hungry for so long. And I mean, I really have no idea. You know of other people's experience of what their extreme hunger was like exactly, but, I found almost impossible to keep up with it was so intense. Like, for example, I would sort of at the beginning of this process. I would go for breakfast. There's a [00:15:00] coffee shop diner situation across the street from me. And I would get a very robust like omelet that was probably like a six egg omelet with, you know, cheese and ham and vegetables, side of like home fries.

Toast, bacon, oh, and a stack of pancakes. I would come home, I would eat all of that, that wasn't enough. So then I'd have two cups of full fat Greek yogurt, because it's so delicious. So like, I'd have like cups of that, and I'd swirl in raspberry preserves or jam to flavor it, which is delicious. You know, and then have like a few pieces of fruit, and then have something else, and that would be like finally kind of enough. And then I'd be hungry in like an hour and a half, so it was,

it was, it was just all day, every day. It was wild.

Florence: I think it's an experience that many of us have gone through. And I wonder, I mean, Nicola, tell me if you agree with that, if this is also why people sometimes put a toenail in the All In and then go back, you know, and they're like, Ooh, I can't deal with this. So I'm interested, you said you started [00:16:00] All In almost immediately after realizing this might be it. And then how, how did All In look like for you?

Martin: It was a long process. It was

a very long, at least it felt that way. I mean, it probably took, it started in December 2021, and I would say my more extreme hunger didn't end until the beginning of 2023.

Sorry, so it's like from the end of 2021 to the beginning of 2023. And during that period my hunger really, I mean, perhaps decreased slightly toward the end of that, but it was pretty consistently high. And I would notice, every five weeks, that is when I would sort of feel like a notch of improvement, in sort of like up regulating, feeling a little bit more normal, feeling like I had a little bit more energy, and just felt more consistent overall. And It was really strange because, you know, obviously we're taking in all of that food again, like our digestion has to completely adjust, which is a wild [00:17:00] process. And, I just sort of learned, too, that from eating so many greens and other things for such a long time, it really took me probably over a year before I could even eat like a regular salad again. It would cause me so much distress just to eat raw vegetables.

Nicola: Mm hmm.

Martin: So I had to be careful with all of those kinds of things.

And then at the beginning of 2023, when my extreme hunger, finally came to an end, because I hadn't spoken with Dr. Nicola yet, which is the reason I reached out to her. I sort of, just unknowingly, kind of jumped into, like, into debuting a little too soon. 

And so, then because of that, my extreme hunger came back for like a month or two, and I was like, okay, we can't do this. Like, let's reach out, let's make contact. And then that's when we spoke, and that was really helpful, just getting on like a timed schedule to eat. But that was also sort of, I noticed a really distinct phase for me in a bunch of ways.

You know, for example, I had certain things happen, In that five month period that did not happen to me, either in [00:18:00] the phase of restricting or in the phase of satiating my extreme hunger where, for example, if I was eating every two to three hours, when it would come time for me to eat and it would begin to get a little hungry, I would feel such an extreme drop in my blood sugar, like a precipitous, dangerous drop in my blood sugar. Like my vision would actually start to glitch

and I would start, it would get blurry. And yes, it was very extreme. And then there were moments when I was like, do I need to be hospitalized? And then I would eat and within 15 minutes I'm like, Oh, I feel fine.

And I don't know if it was just like my body finally releasing and just giving into all of these things after, putting up with so much for so long. I don't really know any real explanation for it, but, then toward the end of that period of time that had all dissipated, but I would say I didn't feel completely normal. I finished that second phase in, I believe, July of 2023, [00:19:00] so this past summer,

but I didn't feel completely normal again until the week of Halloween of

2023.

And that's when I just woke up and I was like, oh, the clouds have parted, you know, and I finally, I felt normal. And yeah, in the past, like I would say maybe month or so, that's when I was I have like extra energy.

 I feel like I can go do things and I don't feel, fatigued, drained, exhausted. But, it was a journey. I, No, I really had to, like, regulate, rethink, like, my exercise and movement in general through that whole period as well. 

Nicola: Yeah, I did want to

ask you about that. So you had said that sort of when you, probably when you acquired Reds is when you picked up and were doing more running. What

did your exercise look like when you were all in food wise?

Martin: So, I made the decision, I just have to cut out running. I think it's the most taxing thing that I do, and I just knew that, like I said, I love Pilates, and like I'm very nerdy, and very history driven in a lot of my [00:20:00] passions, so you know, reading the works of Joseph Pilates, it always said something that really struck me, it was like, there's a time for work, there's a time for rest, and there's a time for play, and I was just like, you know, this is a time for rest. 

So I will rest and I totally cut out running. I was like, I don't really love running. So I enjoy it in fits and starts, but I'm not a runner. Like I've been waiting my whole life for that runner's high. It's never come. I sort of made, like, pretty strict boundaries for myself, and I did stick to them.

I was like, you know, I'm not going to exercise in any sort of formal way more than, like, three times a week, and I'm not going to do it. I'm going to max out at, like, 20 minutes to 30 minutes. And that I think was pretty successful for me, but there did come a time maybe four months into the all in process where I was like, you know what, I actually think I need to stop completely and I think I need to stop even going on walks. That I think was a big step forward for me because when that month was over, I did feel so much better. And I think I had [00:21:00] been used to just walking so much, , I live in New York, like I walk a lot. And then I think I'd through internship experiences and all that stuff, been really conditioned to walk almost excessively. And when that month was over, I was like, all the muscles in my legs don't feel dead. They don't feel like, they've been totally depleted and fatigued and burning, aching. That was a necessary step, I think, just taking a step back totally.

Nicola: So when you and I started working together, as you mentioned, you were well into this all in process and you just had some questions about how to move forward. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that time felt like for you and what some of your uncertainties, what your questions were?

Martin: Yeah, so I guess like I mentioned, I had that little sort of blip where I was like, Oh, my extreme hunger came back and I really just wanted to progress in whatever way that meant and sort of like get deeper into the process, get closer to returning to life so to speak.

And I didn't know how I should approach it? And when I spoke with [00:22:00] you, and you mentioned the importance of taking a period of time before jumping totally into intuitive eating and to really focus on eating on a schedule for a period of time just so that I was constantly fueled and, the timer and I became best friends during that. I was very religious about it. Just, always had that set every time I ate so that I would know for sure and, and not guessing and, perhaps, slow that process down any further. 

Nicola: Mm

Martin: So that was a really it was a helpful session and follow ups to you know, speak about all the things

Florence: And at that time, what changes were actually the most powerful after that discussion with Nicola?

Martin: I think there was nothing that was immediate or drastic, but what I did notice was just a consistent decrease in really precipitous drops in my blood sugar levels and just much more consistent [00:23:00] energy. And at this point I would say like I mentioned up until fairly recently until the end of October, beginning of November, I still had some level of fatigue and had to be very careful about even going for walks in the park near my apartment.

And, especially in the fall that's so lovely and relaxing, sometimes listening to this podcast, as I do so, and, I just was like, okay, you have to really pay attention and modulate yourself. And even if it's quote unquote, just walking, maybe if you do that for too many days in a row and you feel really tired, you should just, take a couple of days, rest, hydrate, eat, all of those good things. And, when that period was over, I was like, oh, I feel much better. But it still took some time to get totally back to normal. So, you know, at this point, we're what? A little over two years in for me. So yeah, it's taken a minute.

Florence: And I'm guessing talking to Nicola was also a way to kind of get reassurance that [00:24:00] the path you were on was the right one. Because I mean, you've been super resilient keeping up with recovery over such a long period of time on your own, basically.

Martin: Yeah. No, I mean, I guess the thing that kept me going consistently as I've gotten older is that, if I ever came upon a moment when I felt frustrated or, discouraged in any way, I would just have a little conversation with myself and sort of ask, like, okay, What's the alternative? What else have you ever done that would consistently, healthfully, peacefully, keep your body at a safe and happy and healthy place where you had the energy to live the kind of life that you wanted and do the things that you wanted to do? And of course the answer was, there isn't one, so just keep going. And that, that kept me going.

Nicola: I really like that framing and the centering of what that question does for you. I mean, it just like [00:25:00] makes me feel centered right now. Just listening to you.

Martin: That's it. I'm glad. I'm glad 

Nicola: I think that's fantastic. A lot of people, ourselves included, find the whole process of going all in challenging because it sort of goes against so much of what we read as the do's and don'ts in life in general, shall we say. But we find that we, we learned some really valuable lessons from this, you know, from this process and the mindset changes. Can you tell us any other insights that you've gained through this journey?

Martin: Hmm. How do I put this? Again, as I've gotten older, as I've sort of just had more conversations with myself and tried to grow, I really think we're at our most powerful when we surrender. 

Nicola: Mm. 

Martin: And I think that this is a process of surrender and just one example of that. And I think that when. You can just embrace that. That's when all sorts of other things begin to open up for you. And I think it was a big lesson in that, in patience, [00:26:00] in acceptance, which I think is really the ultimate healing.

And from there, I think anything is possible really, but it just takes time and being as resilient as you can, it's not easy. And just knowing that there's not a perfect way to do it. I kind of think that in our efforts to be our best selves and to accept ourselves and love ourselves. I think there are moments when old habits can creep in in unexpected ways and they can create this toxic positivity about how you want to embrace yourself.

And, just to know that, loving yourself, accepting yourself, again, doesn't mean that you're going to do it perfectly all the time, every day. It's like any other relationship, right? It's just sort of acknowledging what it is and doing your best with it and keep working, keep healing. And just doing your best to better yourself as best as you can with what you have, where you are.

Florence: That's

such a lovely message. If you don't mind, both of you, can I add just a question that comes to mind right [00:27:00] now?

A lot of the ladies we work with, they really struggle with the extreme hunger, mostly because they're really afraid of gaining weight. How has that been for you? Obviously I understand that, you know, the pressure to be thin is not the same on men.

But it doesn't mean that men do not have that consideration in mind when they go through such a long phase of having to eat so much and rest so much. How did you actually deal with that weight gain?

Martin: Yeah, I mean, it is undeniably an uncomfortable process. And I think if you're someone who, like in my case, struggle with their weight growing up because of, an illness, a condition. And then, you sort of lose all that weight. Then you're like, Oh, actually, I have to gain like all of that back, essentially, maybe more. That's tricky. And obviously, the pressures on men and women are absolutely different. It has been really [00:28:00] interesting though, to sort of see in recent years, the way, via social media, YouTube, what have you, the standard for men, everyone's just promoting like 10 percent body fat for men, like, all the time,

Florence: which nuts

Martin: which is crazy, and, I think it's fair to say the majority of men would be extremely unhealthy, and if it were ever even attainable, even for a short period, so, it's been interesting to see those standards change in real time, and how extreme they've gotten, and how fast. I think you have a lot of fitness influencers on YouTube who are men, and who are, you know, like 25, and I'm like, why do you have 7 cups of caffeinated coffee a day? Plus, like, pre workout, plus these other things. And it's like, well, because you're so depleted, like,

you have nothing. You're so hungry. You work out so hard, so frequently. You're so lean. It's just a really unsustainable place to be. But I guess to circle back to your question, again, it was just, it was this [00:29:00] attitude of like because I'd had illness from infancy, I was like, I don't know what my set point weight is.

I have no idea what sort of normal quote unquote or natural me is and so I just really had to do my best to look at it as a point of discovery and just know that I was going to be uncomfortable with it. But again, it was that question : what's the alternative? Am I going to stay hungry forever? Is that the alternative? That's not really a life I'm interested in living.

Florence: I love that. Thank you so much. I think, again, I'm not stating in any way by asking that question that the weight gain is an issue. are very, very size inclusive here, but it's definitely a concern that shows up. I mean, I, I don't know anyone who didn't have that concern at some point because culturally we all swim in that requirement, right.

To be a certain body size, body fat level, whatever it is. And, definitely I agree with [00:30:00] you. We've seen that pressure on male bodies more and more, the best way to look at it is, looking at the images of Wolverine, you know, the movie with Hugh Jackman. So they did a few and between the first one and the last one, Hugh Jackman is completely different. So the first one, he's already quite buff, but he is not as kind of, you know, shredded. And the last one is completely unrealistic. So I use that a lot when I go speak in school, because I want these high school students to realize this is not a normal way to have a body.

This is something they go through for a very specific time and place, and then they stay out of it because it's actually really unhealthy.

Martin: Totally.

Florence: So I think your what's the alternative is definitely a great way to look at it, which works for [00:31:00] anyone, really, whatever your gender.

Martin: Yeah, absolutely. But I'm so glad you mentioned that example specifically. Like I said, I love movies. I love all kinds of movies. And, You've seen that sort of same progression, and sort of like extreme. both muscle mass to small fat percentage ratio, get, even crazier. And the other thing that I think is important to mention for men in particular is like, that's all pharmacologically enhanced, no matter what people are telling you

Florence: Of course, Of course,

Martin: And it's really important to, treat people with suspicion when they say that there's none of that involved if they're leaner and more muscular at 50 than they were at 20. Because that's just not how we age, and that's not a natural process in the slightest. And, to your point, it is something that goes back to bodybuilding.

It's the same concept of where we get to an extreme shape for a limited amount of time. And then you have to come out of it because you can't really, survive [00:32:00] there. I imagine a lot of those people are probably on some sort of cycle year round because they can't get too far away from that, because then they can't get back to it in time for their next film role. It's funny , if you see, like, an action movie from, say, 2002 to 2005, any of those scenes with, a shirtless guy, we've all seen that movie. And compared to now, a recent film, the guy who was, you know, in that movie in like 2003 probably carried like 15 more pounds of body fat on him than that same sort of actor would today.

And it's really sort of just more when you see it and sort of compare and contrast like how quickly that sort of ideal shifted and how extreme it became. It's just really wild to behold.

Florence: absolutely. But I think we've seen also more men thanks to social media. I think social media brings those unrealistic ideals way faster than we could get them, you know, when we were just watching TV, for example. But then again, I think social media has [00:33:00] allowed for more body diversity to be witnessed. You know, We are able to follow people that are in larger bodies and doing amazing things and, you know, being, I don't know, marathon runners or ballerinas or whatever it is. So, gosh, it's such a double edged sword, definitely. But thank you for that. I think that was interesting. Now, you know, obviously.

mostly female listeners on this podcast, but I'm interested to hear about your experience as a male going through REDS in terms of getting support around you in terms of the larger community. And in terms of what you would like to say to other men who may experience reds and feel a bit lost.

Martin: Yeah. so I guess to address the part one of your question. One of the reasons I think I was so eager both to speak to Dr. Nicola and also to do this podcast was that, in my [00:34:00] research , I couldn't find any identifiably male examples of this anywhere, even anecdotal. And while I think it's always important to reference that everyone's experience is so different.

I think if you don't even have sort of like a touch point, you don't have any sort of landmark anywhere. That makes it that much more difficult to do. And so, in that way, I guess it was sort of a lonely process. But, you know, my friends and family were great. That was never something I really even feel like I had to address that extensively with anyone.

 It was definitely something that I spoke with my parents about just because I was just almost out of interest in what I was learning, just different elements of this process and, you know, set point and like all of those different things that sort of, come up in discussing this. Part two is, I would say, I really wish I'd reached out sooner to professional, whether it was like Dr. Nicola, or maybe, you know, like a registered dietitian in my area who is sort of [00:35:00] familiar with these, conditions. And I think, I guess, sort of a full circle moment to what we discussed in the beginning, there is something about it that feels, perhaps segregated from like normal medical practice, and it's an easy thing to think that you can just do on your own completely, if you just don't have enough frame of reference, so I would say, if any of these kinds of symptoms resonate with you, I would strongly encourage anyone to at least just ask someone to seek some professional help to sort of make sure that, you know, whoever you're reaching out to is like familiar with these kinds of things. Because I think, you know, we've all had those like really weird experiences with general practitioners, that haven't been like super positive. So. You don't want to go through the process of reaching out and trying to get yourself help to be shot down in a weird way. So I guess that would sort of be one piece of advice and then, if you are someone who's a recreational athlete, or, you know, maybe [00:36:00] you even take your athletics more seriously, I would imagine that you have some sort of peers who maybe have experienced similar things. So, definitely, you know, embrace your community and talk to people. Get the lay of the land. See what people have to say. And, maybe you can find more camaraderie than you already have. 

Nicola: I think that's such a good point because I think that, certainly in the community of those with a uterus, like, speaking about your period has become much more, welcomed over the last couple decades than it was before that. And, you know, I think, and I think it's fantastic.

And I think that, you know, if other people who are experiencing reds who don't have that signal of a missing period to let them know that something is wrong, you know, can talk amongst themselves, then I think that that can be really helpful just to have more of this sharing experience and not all about like, Oh, this is the workout I'm doing.

And this is, you know, this is how much I'm eating and look how much I'm losing. And, you know, if we talk about sort of the downsides and the struggles as well as, you know, as well as. [00:37:00] the positives, I think that having a more realistic picture maybe of what's underfueling and, a lot of exercise can do for anybody, I think that the more we get those stories out there, the better off we all are.

Martin: absolutely. And one thing I, I want to mention as I guess in that vein is that my weight at my worst was not something that people would have looked at me and been alarmed about. I'm five, seven and a half. And, you know, with like 155 pounds, people might have expected me to look, I don't know, skeletal, and I was very slim, but I don't think anyone would have looked at me and like been concerned. So it's, I would say that even if you think that you're at a healthy weight, but you're still feeling all of these things, that that is still very possible. So to not feel like you have to look a certain way for this to be applicable to you.

Nicola: Yeah. That's been our message from, day one, you know, that REDS can happen to anybody in any body size, it's more about [00:38:00] how well you're fueling your day to day activities and your movements and not about what your body actually looks like.

Martin: Yes, yes, totally.

Nicola: So give us a little update on how things are going for you at the moment.

So how are things feeling for you in terms of your eating, your exercise, body image, just a quick, little wrap up for us.

Martin: Yeah, of course. No, things have been especially, oh gosh, in the past like couple of months so great just feeling Yes, to not have that perpetual feeling of unwellness or feeling like just everything was so precarious before, and I don't want to give the impression that it was like housebound or anything for these two years, but I did make sort of a concerted effort to kind of macro places if I didn't have to only because my hunger would be at a point where I might feel like faint or just sort of unwell.

I didn't want to be on the subway and have that happen, that would be like my nightmare scenario, and it's so nice to not have that be a concern [00:39:00] anymore, and to just feel, like I can do the things that I want to do. And that's something that's really, I would say in the past. maybe three weeks in particular, has really kicked in where I just don't feel that muscular fatigue anymore. I think it had been so deeply ingrained, so set in that even with all the rest and all the fuel and , everything I had been doing, some of that was still lingering and that really finally went away.

Because I love my movement practice and I love partaking in those things. And, just like anyone else, I want to feel as capable, and strong as I can in my day to day life. So I'm on the road back to that and just sort of paying attention to, I feel tired one day to not push it and to maybe take that day off or, or whatever.

But, in general, it does feel really good to move again. It's funny. I guess just sort of in my weight gain. And so one of the negatives, unfortunately, it's more awkward to move like the way I would like to for some things. Especially like in my Pilates practice where a lot of it is like based on laying down. But I think that will alleviate with time and it's just takes some [00:40:00] adjusting and it feels good to move and food just feels easy, I think is the best way to put it. It just feels easy and normal and natural and it just doesn't occupy that much brain space, which I think is so

great. Yeah.

So now I'm sort of like, okay, well, you know, what's, when everything sort of settles in, how are we going to be like, how are we going to feel?

And so, yeah, I guess I'm sort of on my way there now, but, it was a long process, but so worth it and, a great teacher and, I'm so glad I stuck with it.

Florence: Well, well done. I'm in awe of your journey, which has definitely taken time and effort. And I, I love your attitude of kind of grounding yourself into the moment and saying this too shall pass. It's okay. I don't need to freak out. I can listen to the signs and, and wait until I feel better again.

So I'm glad you, you are in a better place right now and well done. You know that we ask the same question to all of our guests, We ask [00:41:00] about how our guests are all in right now. So I know you may not be all in, you know, Reds related right now, but how are you all in with your life? You know, really using that new mental space that you got back using that energy, what is making you bite into life again?

Martin: For the listeners, we're very freshly into 2024. So

it's a new year and

I don't know, I don't know how people felt about 2023. It was kind of, I don't know. I don't give it my best review. To call it mid was, is kind. But I'm really excited for 2024 because, and I think I'm all in in the sense that, I don't know, the completion of this process really aligned with a lot of things that I have coming up for the new year.

I'm in the midst of launching like a company with a business partner. I am more recently newly embarked on having my own, more individual creative direction, practice, and working with [00:42:00] clients and, advising people. And that feels so, so good and so overdue.

Like something I've been meaning to do for a long time. I think when you realize that the rules aren't real and you can kind of just do what you want, is a great moment. And There's just so much that I'm exploring and excited for in the new year and now, and now I have the energy to actually do those things and accomplish those things and that's not something I have to be concerned about on top of, all of the other, spreadsheets and, and other, and other more creative things I'm trying to tackle.

 I think that's probably the best way to put it for at the moment.

Nicola: Wonderful. Yeah. That sounds amazing. It sounds like a, a really nice 2024 that you have in store for yourself.

Martin: I, I think so. I think so. Knock on wood.

Nicola: Yeah. 

Florence: Well, we definitely wish you all the best and, thank you so, so much, for coming here and sharing. And, I'm sure it will be a great episode to share with, you know, other practitioners as well, who may be, meeting men in that [00:43:00] situation.

Martin: So. I hope so 

Nicola: Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story with us and yeah, it's been wonderful chatting with you again.

Martin: Likewise. And thank you both for all of your work.

One thing that always strikes me is how different each person's all in journey is. As I often say, there are many paths to HA and many paths out of it. Your journey is unique. That is so true. If you need more support on your journey, you should definitely start with NoPeriodNowWhat, which you can get at noperiod.

info. com. And Florence and I both work with people on different aspects of period recovery and so much more. If you'd like more personalized advice and attention, you can go to noperiod. info slash appointments to schedule a time to speak with me on fixing issues underlying missing periods, blood work, diagnosis, and lots more.

or beyondbodyimage. com to work with me on the fear of weight gain and making peace with food exercise in your [00:44:00] body. I also take care of the new French version of No Period Now What through the Instagram account je underscore livre. We also have joined clients and online support groups so you can access both our domains of expertise and get the physical and mental help you deserve to put an end to disordered eating once and for all.

If you enjoyed this podcast and found it helpful, please subscribe and drop us a review to help more people find it. Also, join our online recovery community at noperiod. info slash support in English and noperiod. info slash communique in French and let us know how All In is going for you. All In is not just about period recovery, it's about getting your life back.

See you in two [00:45:00] weeks!