18. LGBTQ+ therapist, speaker, and mindset coach, Bhavna Raithatha

Bhavna Raithatha is a therapist, a public speaker, and a personal coach.

This episode discusses how the messages we get as children affect us in our adult lives. Many times, we live out the expectations of others rather than ourselves, and Bhavna reminds us of the importance of designing a life of your own.

Bhavna came out later in life, after a long marriage to her husband. After coming out to him, as well as coming out to her mother, she began to cultivate the life that she wanted.  Bhavna's story highlights the fact that it's never too late to live your truth.

Content warning: sensitive topics in this podcast include suicide (12:30-12:40) and 9/11 (13:40-14:00). They are mentioned briefly at the corresponding times noted.

http://www.justbeyourself.co.uk

Mentioned in this episode:
Episode 9: Chris Tompkins, author of Raising LGBTQ Allies: A Parent's Guide to Changing the Messages from the Playground

Episode 12: Rick Clemons, Podcast Host of Life (UN)Closeted and 40 Plus: Gay Men, Gay Talk

Transcript

Episode 18. LGBTQ+ therapist, speaker, and mindset coach, Bhavna Raithatha

[00:00:00] Angela: What you just said earlier about.

[00:00:01] us connecting via social media from, you know, the distance of, I don't even know how much, and this happens all the time, right? Like you mentioned earlier, the podcast with Yes. With Clemens.

[00:00:12] I mean that was a situation that came out of the podcast with Chris Tompkins, who wrote Messages From the Playground: Raising LGBTQ Allies. I've had many of those connections with people who I otherwise never would've met. Yes. Right. And I just think what really resonated with you, and I specifically too, was I had heard you talk about coming out later in life, and I think this person came out later and

[00:00:39] has a post of, I spoke at UK Black Pride. Yes. And I think, ah, yes. Does that just blow your mind? You know, because that's, that's a journey from one point to the other. That doesn't happen overnight. How do you feel when that moment happens, 

[00:00:55] Bhavna: You Know 

[00:00:56] I just wanna cry. 

[00:00:57] Angela: Right? 

[00:00:57] Bhavna: Yes. Oh God, Angela, I've climbed Mt Kilimanjaro when I was 14. Right. Wow. 

[00:01:03] Wow. That's a fluke. Because I was, you know, being a teenager and kicking off. Being invited to speak at UK Black Pride in my hometown in London, literally across the road from where our family home is- was- before we left from the town that I was run out of because of a homophobic manager. All these years I've lived in shame, you know, that sort of just curl up and die in a corner somewhere.

[00:01:29] Right. When I got the email to say we would love for you to come and speak at UK Black Pride. You know, here's what you need to do. First of all, I couldn't believe it. It took me two days to just come down, and then it was, you know, another two days of, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. Just the disbelief.

[00:01:51] And on the day, it was one of our hottest days here, and I thought I was going to pass out at any given moment. But to stand up on that wellbeing stage and to speak to the people who came and offered grace by coming and listening, you know, to all the amazing speakers and performers.

[00:02:12] I mean, I, I was, I was humbled. Absolutely humbled and blown away. And my greatest regret is that there aren't any pictures from me speaking. And you know, God works in amazing ways. Right? So no, no video, no pictures, whatever came back home, still buzzing. And then I went on Instagram and I was tagged in a post by Emeli Sandé, the Emelie Sandé, who was in the audience listening and filming me.

[00:02:43] And I was thinking, I know this name, but I don't know who this is, you know? So I sent it to my friend because my friend had been there to support me in London. She, she couldn't make it to the thing, and, you know, this is my friend from college

[00:02:57] she was like, Bhav...Emeli Sandé. I'm like, yeah. And, I was getting annoyed because like, like, what, you know, and she sent me the Wikipedia page, and then it was my turn to like, oh my God. Yeah. You know, that, someone who has, you know, that stage, that level of presence in the world came to hear me speak, came to hear other people speak on that day, and was kind enough to send me a clip of, of a video of me speaking, you know, alongside a montage of stuff.

[00:03:31] And it, it was just, it, you know, it still touches my heart. What a kind, kind thing to do. You know, so may not have any official documentation of that, but that little, you know, I think five, six-second clip means the world to me. Absolutely. Because I was there at the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park.

[00:03:52] Angela: That is amazing because I know we have separate journeys from being in the closet. And hiding who you are from yourself. Yes. Much less everyone around you. Yeah. To this moment, us even being on this podcast together and just allowing ourselves to have this conversation. I don't know -maybe people do understand, maybe some people don't understand that there's a lot of vulnerability in just being your authentic self.

[00:04:19] Yeah. Once 

[00:04:20] Bhavna: you start realizing who you are, you know, once you creak that little closet door open, and peek your head out of Narnia. And you see a beautiful world and blue skies, you want to smash out and come out of there. Right. But there's a reason you were in there and it's about looking at all of those reasons.

[00:04:41] How much of it is your stuff how much of it is other people's stuff that you know, you need to give back to them? Let them deal with it. You've got enough, you know? You've got a job to do. Get out and do it. And that has to be at your pace. Respectfully at your pace. Right. 

[00:04:59] Angela: So I have a question for you.

[00:05:01] Sure. When you came out, what was the catalyst exactly? Because I mean, we have to acknowledge the fact that like you spoke earlier, there are layers of our culture that add difficulty to this process. So can you tell me a little bit about what that was like?

[00:05:17] Bhavna: Absolutely. So the catalyst was, you know, I'm, I'm very, very passionate about mentoring young people. I'm very passionate about giving young people a voice and seeing them, right? Because I, I was, wasn't invisible child, you know, my, my mom was widowed and bereaved, So, you know, my dad died when I was nine and mom was incredibly young.

[00:05:42] I had siblings. So I became the surrogate dad of the family at the age of nine and helped to raise my brothers whom I love with my life. While mom worked and we were in a new country. So you. , we couldn't have open conversations. There was very little conversing. There was a lot of, you know, correction and very disciplinarian guidance.

[00:06:08] So, and, And also coming from an Indian household, girls were expected to do, you know, all the chores and all of the household stuff. Boys, no rules. Very, very little boundaries. You know they can do what the hell they liked. So, you know, I never had anyone to talk to, and I wasn't allowed to play out.

[00:06:28] Right. So I, I didn't learn how to socialize. And that carried on throughout school. I realized I was attracted to girls, women, not girls. I was never attracted to anyone my own age. But I was very, very attracted to a teacher at school because she was very strict. She was very, you know, very aloof.

[00:06:52] Her characteristics reminded me of my dad. You know, so there was, there was something about her, and I thought, my God, you are absolutely beautiful. But again, I couldn't say a word because I was terrified. I went to an all-girls school, which was excruciating, you know? So it was just like, what is this journey?

[00:07:10] What the hell? So I couldn't talk to anyone at school. I was bullied mercilessly. You know, the first time I heard lesa, I didn't know what that meant. I had to look it up, you know. So my childhood school years were spent in our reference library, and I was always in a book to do with Egypt. So, you know, ancient Egypt hieroglyphs, you know, I taught myself hieroglyphs.

[00:07:31] I taught myself Egyptology. And left school, went to college. There was a girl there that I really, really liked, you know, but she, yeah, she was just off the wall, you know, never ever, ever turned up when she said she would turn up very unreliable and devastating. So that was fine. Left to call it, left college.

[00:07:56] Started uni, six weeks in. I'm sitting in the canteen, and there walks in this guy, and I'm thinking, oh my goodness. , wow. He came and sat across the table from us. I, I was waiting to see another friend. That's a long, long, bizarre story. But he was in her entourage. She was very, very beautiful with, you know, tiger-striped hair and green eyes.

[00:08:22] So there was a bunch of, you know, six blokes following her.

[00:08:25] very pheromonal. And you know, so I was waiting to sit with her. She turned up with these guys. They, you know, took all the seats and this one guy went and sat on his own. And something about that made my heart hurt. And it was just like, oh my God, that's - that's so lonely. And I remember that from my school days of how lonely it was to sit and eat alone.

[00:08:46] So I excused myself and I went and sat with him and Angela, you know, we started talking. He started making me laugh. We forgot about our lectures, we forgot everything. Right? Five, six o'clock in the evening, we were being thrown out of the cafe. Oh. Because, you know, we were just (chatting). Right. Right. The next morning, we're there at the crack of dawn on a Friday because we had homework to do.

[00:09:13] . Seeking each other out. And, you know, we ended up getting engaged on Valentine's Day. I married him, you know, and we had 13 year amazing, beautiful, beautiful romantic fairy tale years together. And to your question, eventually, I went back to work in my old school because I wanted to make sure that those kids had someone to talk to because I didn't when I was there, you know?

[00:09:43] So my whole game plan had been, I need to go back there. I need to be there for the students and serve them, okay? Because as a student, I used to stand at the window on our third floor of a beautiful Victorian building, wondering how I can jump and 9/11 myself because I was so in pain, so alone, and so confused.

[00:10:04] You know, this is what I was saying to you about the need for deep conversations, right? Because it's about speaking those truths that, you know, we've been there, we've been there, and by the grace of God and something inside us, we made it to this point, and we are now saying, you know, it's. We've got you, and you've got this.

[00:10:30] So I went back to work there. Within a couple of weeks, I bumped into my teacher,? Now, 17 years had passed since she taught me. So I thought she'd be retired or dead, you know. I wasn't expecting to come face-to-face with her, right? And you know, we ended up teaching together because I was working with our people referral unit for, for, you know, students that were struggling and acting out and all of that.

[00:10:57] And she was teaching them, and I was `doing the support there and my beautifully curated wall around me crumbled . It came down like the twin Towers did. You know, and, and I don't mean to make light of that, but it literally just collapsed without warning, without any sense of power on my part.

[00:11:21] You know, I saw her and, it was almost like something had been released, and all that energy, all that passion, all that love, lust, whatever, you know, we want to call it came smashing its way out. You know, and at this point, I'd been with my husband for 13 years and we were madly in love. Right. We were still, even after 13 years and being married, we were still dating each other.

[00:11:48] You know, he'd phoned me up and say, Hey, I really fancy you. Will you go out with me? You know, so, so we, we'd have this little play, right? And, you know, we'd get home, whoever got home first, you know, made tea and whatever, and he'd get ready or I'd get ready. And when I came downstairs and stood in the doorway, he would gaze at me with the light of the sun with such love.

[00:12:13] Angela: That's so 

[00:12:13] Bhavna: beautiful. Right? So you, you know, that that's what we had. That's what we had until I went back to work in this damn place and everything came out and I was like a pile of rubble. , I didn't know what to do. I was deeply, deeply depressed. You know, my, doctor sent me for therapy, thank God, you know, so I had two years of therapy and eventually, it was tearing me apart and I thought, you know, I'm 29.

[00:12:42] I can't do this anymore. I can't do this. And I was actually the same age when I realized that my mom was when my father died. I've literally just made that connection. Goosebumps. Yeah. 

[00:12:54] Angela: So let me ask you this because it sounds like your relationship with your husband or then-husband, so beautiful, right?

[00:13:03] But at the same time, you mentioned, you know, you had these feelings when you were much younger, yet you met him. You have this spark, you have this amazing story from what it sounds like. Was any of that conditioned, do you think? Was it just, I'm supposed to marry a man, I'm supposed to be with a man because it sounds authentic and genuine that it was this love and this passion.

[00:13:26] Was that confusing? The reason I asked this is cuz you know, for me, my experience is very different in the sense that I felt like I was supposed to go this direction. You're supposed to date a guy. You're supposed to marry a man. And so I'm just following the steps that I'm conditioned to take.

[00:13:46] Yeah. But for you, you had a very real connection with this person. Yes. And it sounds beautiful, to be honest. 

[00:13:55] Bhavna: It, it was absolutely exquisite. You know, had I not been gay, and had I not bumped into my old teacher and you know, everything falling apart. We would have celebrated.

[00:14:08] My maths is absolutely rubbish. We, we, we got married when I was 19. I'm 50 now, so 31 years we would've celebrated 31 years. Wow. This year. 

[00:14:17] Angela: Let's say you hadn't run into that teacher again.

[00:14:20] You know, would all have been, well, I guess people would be asking the same question I'm asking. Yeah. Basically. It's not a straight and narrow path for everyone. Right. Because it isn't for you. You do identify as a lesbian. AND you also had this wonderful relationship with a man. 

[00:14:40] And I guess that's what I'm trying to, to convey to anybody listening 

[00:14:43] Bhavna: it's not linear. It's not linear because a lot of people said, but you are bi No, I'm not. No, I'm not. Right. 

[00:14:49] Angela: People would add that label. Right? Absolutely. 

[00:14:51] Bhavna: For sure.

[00:14:52] For sure. And it's like, no, no, no. You know, God bless you if you are, but I am not, and I mean, for goodness sake, he's, he's the one man in my life ever, ever, you know, I have not dated anyone else that was male. I saw him in that canteen and some sparks flew. You know, it, it was literally a Disney moment.

[00:15:15] That's 

[00:15:15] Angela: amazing. Really. I 

[00:15:17] Bhavna: mean, just, it was absolutely a fairytale. That's the only way I can describe. , you know, tall, beautiful, handsome you know, English and Italian heritage, very nice combo, you know, absolutely beautiful, beautiful human being. And you know, that was the thing, the conditioning part, you know, I was raised with, you must learn to cook.

[00:15:40] You must learn to clean. You must learn to do this. You know, because you are going to go to your in-law's house as, as a, as a Indian bride, you know, you go and stay with your in-laws and take care of them. And my argument was always, I'm not going to be anyone's maid. You know, so you can cut that out.

[00:15:56] right? So I, that, was always a subject text that was going on, right? And when I told my husband, it was a really powerful day, 4th of March, you know, we'd had a really hard day. We had uh, medicals booked to get life insurance. All right. And that was triggering, and the traffic was horrific. And we got there late and the lady said, I can only do one of you because you are late, so you know, you'll have to come back.

[00:16:23] Mm-hmm. And I just wanted to blow up, you know, because like, I'm not driving another two hours to come and see you. Whatever you need, you take it now while I'm in front of you, you know, because I had five jobs at the time. Oh, wow. Right. So it was really crazy. And we came home and, this whole thing of, you know, when you're seeking life insurance with your life partner, it's because you want to protect each other and make sure each other is taken care of if anything happens to you.

[00:16:54] Right. You know, it's an act of love. It's an act of love. And for me, it was a huge act of love because I loved him more than life itself. , but it was also, oh my God, I'm tied into this for the rest of my life. And remember, I, I'd now seen this teacher and my world had collapsed, right? So it was a huge, huge time of confusion and pain and bewilderment, you know, acknowledging these feelings that had been buried and festering for over a decade.

[00:17:26] And it sounds like 

[00:17:26] Angela: they'd been deeply 

[00:17:28] Bhavna: buried, right? Hugely. Yeah. Absolutely. And when I told him that afternoon, his first words to me, well, I know, and I nearly died. I, I wanted to die because that just blew my mind. How do you know? Why do you know? How long have you known? Oh my god, you know, hundreds of questions.

[00:17:51] And I looked at him. And I said, what do you mean, you know, how do you, what do you, how do you know? And he looked at me completely innocently and earnestly and said, every time Helen Miran comes on the screen, you go Wild. 

[00:18:05] Angela: I didn't expect you to say that. 

[00:18:07] Bhavna: So Dame Helen Mirren, you are responsible. Yeah.

[00:18:10] You're responsible for my, the end of my relationship. But I, I love Helen Mien. I love Helen Mirin. And I remember watching losing Chase. Have, have you seen that? 

[00:18:20] Angela: No, I haven't 

[00:18:21] Bhavna: find it. Find it because she's an accomplished some, some artist will write something and she goes into a deep depression and her husband doesn't know what the hell to do with her.

[00:18:33] They've got two kids and she's just in this violent depression. And then, you know, I'm not going to spoil the film for you, but she comes out of the depression in a really bizarre way. And I remember watching that and I was painting at the time, I've got a watercolor where I, I love daffodils, so I've got this watercolor where instead of a blue sky, the sky is yellow and instead of yellow daffodils, the daffodils are blue.

[00:19:04] You know? And I look at that now and it's like, oh wow. You know, my, my life was completely turned inside out. Yeah, right. So, goodness me. So that was my coming out experience. And then, you know, a couple of hours later, we were meeting my mother for lunch, late lunch. So I told her on a zebra crossing, because, you know, why wouldn't you?

[00:19:28] You know,

[00:19:29] and she just looked at me like, have you gone crazy? You know, and yeah, her face said it all, you know, registered all the different colors, like a cuttlefish of so much emotion and rage and anger and, you know, then, then, then she made herself believe or is, you know, just rubbish. And it, it was really bizarre to be sitting around a table in a restaurant having lunch after having come out to my husband and to my mother and having them both on the table, I was just like in for a penny, in 

[00:20:02] Angela: for a pound.

[00:20:03] You just dove in, 

[00:20:04] Bhavna: you know, it was you know, when you've got a wound that's been festering and it's filled with puss and, you know, every, every little touch hurts? And you get to a point of so much pain that you find the nearest sharp thing and you slice it open and let it all come out. You know?

[00:20:22] That's what it felt like. I thought, you know what, it's going to ooze. It's going to be nasty. It's going to hurt, it's going to stink. Let it be, I need it to run clear. I need it to heal. You know? And, that took a very long time. Yeah. You know, to get to this point in my life. 

[00:20:38] Angela: You mentioned feeling that depression earlier.

[00:20:41] I mean, in listening to your story, it sounds like your husband at the time was a lifesaver. It almost seems like, would that be accurate to 

[00:20:51] Bhavna: say? Absolutely. Angela. He was not only a lifesaver, and, I want to clarify for the listeners. That it wasn't a one-way thing. You know, right now, I imagine there are people who are feeling angry at me.

[00:21:05] For being selfish, for causing pain. And I promise you, I have the, the biggest regret of my life. You know, we've been separated now for 20 years this year. Right. , and he went on and he got married and had kids and all of that. I didn't go out of my way to hurt him. I, I still to this day love him more than I can say because he, he was my playmate, he was my friend.

[00:21:35] You know, he was the first person that I, I fell in love with. Absolutely. Head over heels, unquestionable. Right. And, you know, the first person that we went on holiday with each other, we grew up together. We were 19-year-old babies and we grew up together. Our whole twenties was together. through all the hard times, you know?

[00:22:00] And not making it work was never on the table. You know, we couldn't get enough of each other. And it wasn't, codependency. It, it was a genuine, that spark of the universe, you know, I respect you so much.

[00:22:14] I want to know you as a person. I, I want to learn about you. I want to drink you up, you know, and, grow with you. You know, and, and we had the privilege to do that together until I went back to work at the school. After I did my degrees and, you know, my world collapsed. Yeah. It 

[00:22:35] Angela: dismantled everything.

[00:22:36] Yeah. Yeah. Wow. But I mean, can we acknowledge to respond with I know. 

[00:22:43] Bhavna: Angela, even now I've, I've got goose pimples, you know because I think I must have done something so right in so many births to have had the honor to experience this love in this lifetime.

[00:23:00] You know? It's the stuff of dreams, is the stuff of ancient poetry. It's the stuff of music is the stuff that makes the sun go round. 

[00:23:14] Angela: And yet, , something's missing. Right. I think for somebody listening, you know, they may ask, it sounds so like you mentioned Disney-esque. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that's what we're all looking for.

[00:23:29] What was missing was just that he wasn't a woman. Isn't that 

[00:23:32] Bhavna: correct? Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:23:34] Yeah. Is absolutely. You know, and, and the thing is, this is the problem. This is the, I, I knew I was different when I was seven or eight in Africa. But I didn't know what the hell it was.

[00:23:46] I was different when we came to this country, to the UK and I knew that, you know, at the age of 13, I loved this teacher. , you know, and, and, and there was a girl actually two years ahead of me. She was beautiful. And, I believe she was gay because she was always with the same woman who worked in the local supermarket, you know, and, and the person in the supermarket was incredibly butch, you know?

[00:24:11] Whereas this one was tall, you know, tittering about on her heels and very, very feminine, you know, with this mane of hair. And, and I fell in love with her. And I remember going home and bawling my guts out to my parents at the age of 13, that, you know, whoa, my life is over. I'm in love with this person.

[00:24:30] And that was the only time where my, both my parents, my stepdad and mom were incredibly kind and bewildered at me, wailing, because I'm in love, you know, with this girl. And, and they sat down and they said, baby, if she was a boy, we could have gone to her parent's house and said, you know, with a proposal and like, like any Indian arranged marriage that, you know, a daughter is very much in love with your son, could they please, you know, would you consider them getting married?

[00:25:04] But she's a girl. We can't do that. You know, because it was, it was incomprehensible to them. Right. So I, I remember stopping eating it got really dramatic, but at the time it, it was, you know, very important. I remember my dad force-feeding me. Yeah, because I, I was so, so distraught that I, I couldn't eat, you know, and the weight started slipping away.

[00:25:27] It, was a few weeks, but the weight started slipping away. It was wild. I overcame that and then everything was sort of normal, got on with school and so on, you know? And then, then as I've said, the, the journey I had. So, yeah. You know, when, my husband said, I know that shattered my world again, you know, whatever rubble that was on the floor was pulverized with that one statement.

[00:25:52] Because I thought, darling, how do you know? How long have you known and how do you feel about it? Right? So we had that conversation and, and you know, he, he, he said, again, every time Helen Mirren comes on screen, you go mad. And here I was thinking, you know, I, I hold it together and I'm very, demure and, and all of this rubbish.

[00:26:14] And clearly I, I was leaking all over the place. You know, because we can't hide our truth. Yeah. Right. If you're a good person, people will see that. If you're a bad person, people will see that because we leak that out. So what made me think that you know, I, I could hide and, and, you know, play straight.

[00:26:36] Certainly after I everything collapsed and, and my lovely, beautiful, beautifully rendered wall came down. Um, You know, that was hard. And, you know, he, he said to me, go and do what you need to do and I'll be waiting here for you when you come back. And I thought, you know, thank you, but no, you're my best friend.

[00:26:59] You, you are the love of my life. And what you've just said is for me to go and have affairs. And I will not do that. I will not do that because, I would be dishonoring everything and every moment we've experienced together, I would be discrediting that and discrediting your trust in me and my trust in you.

[00:27:22] Right. I'm telling you this because I can't lie anymore and I don't know what to do. 

[00:27:28] Angela: So then what is that process like after that you come out to your husband, to your mom? Yeah. And just, you know, I'm sure it's a, much longer story, but I'm curious is how you get from that moment to the stages you've been on, the, you know, the people you've spoken in front of, you know, that's, there's so much that happens in between along the way, which is Yeah, for sure.

[00:27:54] You know, connecting with yourself, aligning with your own voice. How did you find that voice? How did you find the confidence to speak authentically Oh, wow.

[00:28:05] Bhavna: So, I left my husband. You know, we, sold our house. He took the puppy and it got very nasty. And I'm not surprised, you know, that's what pain does. And I choose to hold onto the 13 years of love, not the six months of hell. And so once I'd come out, I, unfortunately, because I knew no better, I went into a relationship with a woman my first ever, I didn't know what I was doing.

[00:28:37] in terms of, I, I thought everybody was going to be like him. You know, kind, authentic, sweet, normal, sane. I, I found the exact opposite. Oh, you know, every trope of the crazy lesbian is true because I found it in one person. It's a whole, you know, six series episodes on its own there.

[00:29:01] So that made me question myself and I was thinking, I'm a therapist. I, I work with people. What is going on here? Came out of that straight into another relationship where I was catfished for three years by somebody who pretended to be in the cia. Who couldn't meet me, my goodness. Right. The Tinder swindler on Netflix, I think?

[00:29:23] Yes. Yeah. Right, right. I've not been able to watch that because I, I, I watched the clip of it and it made my blood turn cold. Wow. So two out of, two major screw-ups. After that, I just pulled myself back and I thought, maybe sit yourself down and have a moment, you know, take, take, take a knee,

[00:29:46] Right. I had to do so much work on myself, Angela, because, you know, I was working on the old operating system that was programmed by my primary caregivers, i.e. My mother. That said, you know, thou shalt not and thou aren't, and you ought, and you should, you know, the should to death. Alright. That, that, that completely screws us up.

[00:30:10] So I had to get to a point in my thirties, I was, oh God, 38. So I had six years of madness and heartache and heartbreak to think, I'm just a car crash in action. Let me sit down and find out what the hell is going on. And then the deep work started, I started asking myself questions, who are you?

[00:30:34] What's going on? What do you want out of your life? What does that look like? Right. Because you know, this, our lives are mapped out for us by our parents because of the culture we come from. Right? So if we're ticking their boxes, which I did, yeah. By the time I was 29, we had the, you know, posh home.

[00:30:56] We had the posh dog pedigree dog. I had the posh job in a school. I had the most beautiful hospital in the world, and I had a Mercedes park outside. I ticked all the boxes, but that wasn't what I wanted. So I had to go and find what my boxes were before I could start ticking them.

[00:31:14] You know, I had to ask myself deep questions. I had to show up for myself first before I could go and beat my chest about, you know, saving the world and, you know, this and that and the other. I had to show up for myself first and look at what and where my boundaries are, and you know, what they look like.

[00:31:40] So I had to do all of that work, and I did that on myself. Obviously, I'm a therapist, so I know the questions to ask, but I also worked with a therapist. Absolutely. All right. I think that's so important. It's absolutely essential. Because we need, we need the counsel of someone objective.

[00:31:59] Right. Because, you know, however capable we are in trying to figure out, this, that, and the other, we are, we've only got one point of view, which is ours, which is tainted from all the messages that we've got. Right? So if we don't seek objective external input, we, we've just created an echo chamber

[00:32:24] all right? And that's where the damage happens because, well, I think I'm this and why isn't anything working? And I feel angry with the world, so I'm going to now, you know, turn into something else that I'm not, and I'm going to show up as this person because I'm fed up with everyone. It's like, no, baby, sit yourself down.

[00:32:43] ? The authentic you is hurting. You have been hurt, you have been damaged. Let's heal those wounds. Let's help you up on your feet, you know, have a cup of tea or coffee. Let's talk it through. Let's process it. Be angry, you know, break things, you know, hit a pillow, whatever. But let's process this to come to a place of equilibrium, just this blank canvas place where you are.

[00:33:16] can put whichever colors that you want on there. Right? Yes. You know, let, let, let's out as much of the old paradigm and programming as we can, let's now take ownership. What colors do you want? How do you want to show up for yourself? Forget everybody else. Yeah. You know, this is a massive internal makeover.

[00:33:41] Who the hell are you? Do you know? Right. 

[00:33:45] Angela: You specifically mentioned the words beautifully curated world earlier what I find so interesting, and I think we all need to remember is when we, like you said, when we're checking those boxes and you know, creating that beautifully curated world that is somebody else's point of view for what our life should be, the reality is, When we come out, I think, this is just my opinion, when we come out, we have an opportunity to truly and authentically design that beautifully curated world that we truly want.

[00:34:21] Hugely and everything in between, like you said, it takes work. Yes. To dismantle. Yes. All of those messages. Anything that has created shame. I think in order to be our authentic selves, we have to be vulnerable and we have to create a safe place for ourselves. Create some safe spaces. A lot of times that is therapy for sure.

[00:34:43] You know, that is the first place that we can have a safe place to speak to somebody. Yes. Hopefully our friends or our family. Yes. Yes. We have to be willing to be vulnerable. I think so. I'm curious. Yeah. You know, what are some safe. places for you, when, where is a place that you feel safe or people you feel safest with?

[00:35:03] Bhavna: Oh wow. Gosh. Please, I'm going to answer that, but I just want to touch on something. So, you know, when you spoke about your New Year's Eve party, you know, the, the, the random invitation and what you said about, oh my goodness, you know, is this real? Am I going to be the only one? Am I going to disappear?

[00:35:20] You know, you know, I, I love that. That really made me laugh, but it was so genuine. But the fact that you know, you've said a number of times that, well, do we come out? Do we not come out? How do we come out? You know, what is that process? Because, you know, the couple next to you are saying, oh, this is my boyfriend.

[00:35:37] This is my girlfriend, but you haven't said anything to anyone. You know? And it's like, that is real-life experience. That's real-life examples, right? So you know that is so, so important. And I've completely forgotten what your question was. Forgive me. 

[00:35:56] Angela: Oh, it's. I was asking where places that you feel safe and I guess specifically Yeah.

[00:36:02] You know, we're sharing our voices online, on social media. Yes. We're sharing our stories. Yes, yes. That's a very vulnerable thing to do. It is. What are ways in which we can align our voice and our true selves safely, I guess? What's a piece of advice that you give people?

[00:36:20] I'm curious. 

[00:36:21] Bhavna: Goodness. Do you know My favorite is be present. Be right now. and be present. And when I say those words, even to myself, it reminds me to pull myself. That's running, you know, into tomorrow and next week and next year, and worrying about all of those things. Call the one that's sort of, you know, sitting with them, their face, the rear view mirror, worrying about everything that's gone.

[00:36:49] . And it's al almost like a, you know, pulling the committee back together in the here and now. And saying, right guys, let's check-in. Who am I? What am I feeling? What am I needing? You know, we, we need to ask ourselves these questions. How can I show up for myself? What do I need right now? Because if I can start taking care of myself and nurturing.

[00:37:14] for me put you, you know, the, the old example of putting your own mask oxygen mask on first on a plane. Exactly that. Because if we don't, and we try to help the next person, we are going to be oxygen deprived. We are going to collapse, we are going to block the aisle. We are taking people down with us,?

[00:37:33] Creating more chaos. Instead, it would've taken two seconds to put your mask on first, get oxygen in you, and then you are more capable of helping, right? So that is part of self-care, that is part of nurturing. Alright? Number one. And then number two, you go into the next circle outside of yourself.

[00:37:55] Who is your team? Who are your people? Who have your back? Genuinely? Yes. Not, not just empty words, you know, not the clanging bells of this world. Who are your team that have seen you, you know, nasty and snotty and mascara, runny and nose, runny, and still love you? Right? So you know, who is your circle?

[00:38:21] The people that you trust to say, you know, I feel rubbish today. I hate myself. I'm having a hard time. And they're gonna say, you know what? Everything's ok. We've got this. What do you need right now? I don't know. Let's sit together and figure it out together. You know, just someone making me a cup of tea.

[00:38:41] I have cried at people because they've made me a cup of tea. Because to me that's, you know, my love language of act of service. My other love language is words of affirmation. Right. And I run workshops on this. so that people can, you know, dovetail with themselves, get to know themselves, reconnect with themselves, because we have lost that.

[00:39:03] You know, we, we, we are socially connected across the world, but do we know who the hell we are? Right? We are the most disconnected in human history. Angela, you know, everybody's on their phone twenty-four seven, but do they speak truth? Is their communication meaningful? You know, are they able to do what we've done in the time we've spoken together?

[00:39:27] Yeah, yeah. You know, this is what I mean about real communication, real conversation, right. So you, you know, safety is in layers. Yes. Yeah. And it's a process. and it's a journey. The process is getting to know ourselves and then expanding our boundaries. The journey is everybody that we meet on route and finding out whether they are friend or foe

[00:39:55] and the more you grow in your power and in your presence, you are going to upset people. Be ready for it. Right. You know there's a term that I've come across from two different sources. Kin, folk ain't skin. Folk. No. Skin folk ain't kin folk. So skin folk our own, aunt kin, folk, they haven't got our backs

[00:40:21] Right? And I remember hearing that the first time on, on a post on LinkedIn. And it made me sit back in my chair with Goose pimples like, oh God, that's what it's called. Because I've experienced that all my life. You know, my own people, people I trusted have stabbed me in the back, you know? And every single, thing we share with someone.

[00:40:46] Everything I've shared with you today is an example, of... Is a knife, is a sharp knife that I'm putting between you and I that you can pick up at any time. And slice me open with, that's trust, right? And we need to figure out whom we can trust and why. because I've had, I've had meetings with people who've smiled at me and, and offered support and Oh my God, you're so amazing, all this.

[00:41:15] And, you know, oh, yes. And I, I will do this, that, and the other for you. And, and I think, Hmm. You know, I, I can count, you know, two people in my life who, who've put their money where their mouth is. So any, anybody else is like, if you do, great, if you don't, great. God bless you, you know, whatever,

[00:41:33] Because that's my learning in terms of, I, I've, I've had to recalibrate myself. Now I'm not going to make stupid mistakes. 

[00:41:43] Angela: Right. So after you came out, you were at your other position at, with the e a p, with the employees assistance program. Is it correct to assume that at the same time that your relationship ended, you also, did you leave your pre previous position?

[00:41:59] Did you just completely change anything? 

[00:42:01] Bhavna: Yes. Yes, yes. So, my God, it, it all happened very, very quickly. My manager, at the school, found out that, they knew that I'd been a student there. But they found out that you, you know, the teacher and I, that, that I, that as a student, I had strong feelings for her.

[00:42:19] . . And that was my mistake. This is what I'm talking about, about trusting people. Right. One, one break time. I was with my colleague. , we both answered to the same manager, and our manager was off for some reason. So we were talking, you know, just getting to know each other. And she was like, oh my goodness.

[00:42:36] You, you were at school here, weren't you? What was it like? Tell me this, that, the other. So I was like, oh, somebody's interested in me. You, you know, so here's a colleague. We're in a new position. She's interested in me, so let me share some of the stuff. And this was prior to, you know, learning the boundaries.

[00:42:55] So I said, oh, yes this, you know, whatever. And she said, oh, and, and who, are there any teachers here that were there when you, you know, that taught you? And I said, of course, yes, this person, this person, this person, and this person. And when I spoke about the teacher that I really liked, I, I, I must have lit up.

[00:43:13] you know, because we ended up talking about her and, you know, I, I said, yeah, I was incredibly fond of her. You know, I was absolutely mad about her because she, she was, Annie's an amazing teacher and, you know, great respect and so on. And, and I, I didn't say that I had strong feelings for her. But you know, when you, are fond of somebody, you just light up.

[00:43:32] Sure. , you know, like, like the Batman signal. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, my husband said, I know. I mean, right? You know. Right. So literally a few days later I was going out to lunch and we had a sports hall next to our school building and there were benches around the corner next to the science block.

[00:43:52] Right. And as I was going out to lunch, I happened to look there because you never saw anybody sitting there. And all of a sudden there were two people sitting there, and it was my manager and my teacher. . . And I wanted the ground to open up and swallow me, and I felt physically sick. , You know, just that trauma again of, oh God, what are they discussing?

[00:44:12] What's going on? You know, why are they sitting there? Why aren't they not in the staff room? Why are they not in our office? You know, why are they not in the rose garden outside the staff room? Why are they hiding in that place? Then I was called into the head teacher's office as a member of staff and basically completely humiliated, you know?

[00:44:36] Bhavna you used to be a student here, didn't you? And I understand that, you know you, you were very fond of Miss so-and-so, and I'm thinking, why are we having this conversation? Right? I'm here as a member of staff, as a professional that you invited to come and work here. , why are we having this conversation?

[00:44:54] You know? So I had to pull back and say, yes, I understand. And, you know, Angela, my greatest regret is that I did not feel strong enough at the time to advocate for myself and take them to task and sue them for slander. And it made life very, very uncomfortable because then I, found people watching me, you know, when I looked up, there'd be somebody standing outside the classroom, or if I was working with a student, my manager would be going in and out

[00:45:24] and it, it got very punitive, very damaging. And, I remember, I found a lump in my breast and I, it was operated on and everything turned out fine, but. , I was so ill from that and very foolishly, I, I chose to go back to work the following week after a serious operation In a school of boisterous kids 

[00:45:49] and ended up with an elbow in the stitches. Oh. And it, it made me orbit. Yeah. You know, so I was off sick for I think six weeks, and when I went back, it just made me more and more, and more ill, you know, and, and that's when I realized that I, I was just, you know, coming in for a crash. You know, so I left and yeah, ended up by the grace of God, seeing a tiny little, you know, two-inch advert in a newspaper for, you know, counselors required.

[00:46:20] And I thought, I'm here, I'm here. Please give me a job. , you know, and I went to work in, in Canary Wharf and, and you know, I'd never experienced that walking into marble and glass building yeah. You know, it was something out of Hollywood and I felt so grateful to be there.

[00:46:39] Not realizing, hang on a minute. Yes. You know, grateful because they've given me a job, but they need to be grateful for the s9/11s I'm bringing. Right. And not, as issue of arrogance or ego, but just that I was showing up as a reliable employee and I worked very, very hard to serve my clients.

[00:46:59] You know, because that was my passion. You know, helping people. Well, I think 

[00:47:04] Angela: there's such an interesting parallel between, Coming out and also acknowledging, you know, this previous life that I had is not what is lighting me up. It's not making me happy. 

[00:47:15] Now do you have your own practice? So, you know, I mean, look at that amazing journey from I'm not happy in this moment. And, you know, you leap out of that to creating and cultivating this. Beautifully curated world. Yeah. That is aligned with your authentic self. Also doing that on a professional level. I think that is just so beautiful.

[00:47:42] It really is. Because not everybody does that. I mean, not everybody takes the opportunity to trust in themselves enough to make that journey, to make that leap. So 

[00:47:54] Bhavna: For sure. It, it takes a lot of guts. 

[00:47:57] Angela: Absolutely. 

[00:47:58] Bhavna: Yeah. You know, because especially for us, you know, the fact that we've been in the closet for so many years and tick other people's boxes so diligently.

[00:48:09] Right. And then we come out, we are like children. We don't know what the hell we are doing. . ,. We are finding our way and, and, you know, all of that stuff. And suddenly we are now in the driving seat. We're in charge. , what do I do? Where do I go? And we, like I said earlier, somebody, you know, somebody, we give ourselves the opportunity of that blank canvas moment.

[00:48:36] What do I want it to look like? What colors do I want in the canvas or on the canvas of my life? What shapes do I want? What does it look like? You know? And, it's a lifelong process of creating this beautiful dynamic canvas where you are showing up for yourself and it's your canvas. You can change it over whenever you want until it is.

[00:49:08] is singing and, you know, glowing the way that you want it. Right. 

[00:49:15] Angela: That's so true. What helps in that is that we also need examples around us, like especially in our community, our LGBTQ community. I mean, I didn't have a lot of examples.

[00:49:25] I'm sure you didn't either of around me, of a successful lesbian relationship on television, much less in real life. So I think it's wonderful right now with television, social media, at least, there's that representation, right? 

[00:49:41] Bhavna: Absolutely. 

[00:49:42] Angela: Which I think makes a huge difference. It allows us to, hope and yes, yes to at least in our mind, create.

[00:49:51] This future where maybe we're not there at this moment, but there's this space where that exists, whatever that is. Absolutely. That could be, you know, coming out, that could be living on your own, that could be creating a new chapter in your professional life that is a pivot from everything, you know, but there's that hope.

[00:50:13] Right. That's it. Well, that's it. I can't thank you enough for your vulnerability today. I mean, really like number one, thank you for your time. That means so much to me. My pleasure. I have no idea. That means so much to me. My pleasure. But for. Open and vulnerable and willing to share. 

[00:50:32] Bhavna: You're very, very welcome, Angela.

[00:50:33] And, you know, thank you for being gracious enough to go with this. I know it's, you know, probably press some anxiety buttons in you, you know, going completely off script. It's 

[00:50:44] Angela: 

[00:50:44] but it's a learning 

[00:50:46] Bhavna: process. It's, it's, yeah. It's really allowed this to flow. Right. And, it's allowed us both to go into different places of thought.

[00:50:57] Angela: As we close, I had kind of some fun questions. Cause we were talking about representation just now, especially on social media and stuff. It doesn't have to be social media. Just in general, who are the people who you follow? Who or, or whose voice? It doesn't have to be a podcast or social media.

[00:51:14] It could be film, writing, whatever. Who do you just love? Who are you, who are you just loving so hard right now? 

[00:51:21] Bhavna: Oh my goodness. Dolly Parton. 

[00:51:24] Angela: Oh yes. I saw your, I saw your story about her today. That was great. , cool. That 

[00:51:30] Bhavna: was great. Yeah. She is one of my long, long, long-term heroes. Know, literally because she shows up authentically and she's just such a beautiful soul in terms of the longevity 

[00:51:45] of having survived over 60 years in an industry that eats people and spits them out. Yes. You know, you've got the alcohol and the drugs and this and that and that, and the, and you think, you know, if we could just sit at her feet for half an hour and take on board some of the things, you know, because, she, as a woman, broke through the glass ceiling.

[00:52:11] We were born. Right. And she's continued breaking and she's continued writing her script, painting her canvas her way. Right. And I love her. I love her. Tina Turner. My goodness me, that lady is the soundtrack of my life. You know, all the dark times. I remember being in my car between my five jobs, you know, windows down, blasting down the motorway, blasting the stereos, singing out loud, resetting myself so that by the time I get to the door of my next job 

[00:52:47] I'm refreshed. Yeah. For the people that I'm serving. 

[00:52:50] Angela: So where can people find you, either online or on your website where can people find you in general 

[00:52:56] Bhavna: so my main place to find out more about me is obviously on LinkedIn... Bhavna Raithatha Uh, You'll find me, you know, on, on there shouting lots and lots about, lots of important things.

[00:53:08] Also on Instagram. Absolutely. And my website is www.justbeyourself.co.uk. 

[00:53:18] Angela: I love that. I love that. Title. Just Be Yourself. Yeah, just be yourself. Thank you again for joining me. My pleasure.