Torpedo Swimtalk Podcast with Brett Hawke - Olympic Swimmer, Olympic Coach and now Masters Swimmer

Ever wondered what it takes to make a comeback in swimming? Join me and my special guest - Olympian, Olympic Gold Medal Winning Coach and Swimming Podcast Host, Brett Hawke - as we dive into the world of Masters Swimming.

On this episode of Torpedo Swimtalk Podcast Brett shares his journey back into the water, his training regime for the Masters World Championships in Doha, and shares his philosophy that you have to "train fast to race fast".  He explains why he is getting into masters swimming and the journey he has embarked on to take control of his life and inspire others to do the same.

Brett shares with us how he coached Cesar Cielo to Olympic Gold; his hand in Cody Simpson's return to swimming and the state of sprinting in the current swimming landscape.   

We discuss the famous 100x25's set from Auburn University that Brett invented and how it can be used to improve speed. Don't miss out on this fascinating conversation
with one of the authorities on swimming, from all perspectives of the narrative.

Connect with Brett:
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Chapters

• 0:03 Brett Hawke's Return to Masters Swimming
• 10:32 Swimming Journey and Lifestyle Changes
• 15:09 Improving Masters Swimming Workouts
• 21:06 The Toughest Set Ever
• 24:23 Mental Toughness and Training in Swimming
• 37:22 Swimming Setbacks and Opportunities
• 42:15 Controversial Top 10 Sprinters List

Transcript

Danielle Spurling: 0:03

Hello Swimmers and welcome to another episode of Torpedo Swim Talk podcast. I'm your host, Danielle Spurling, and each week I chat to a master swimmer from around the world about their swimming journey. Today's guest needs very little introduction. We know him as a dual Olympian, an Olympic gold medal winning coach and swimming podcast host, Brett Hawke. But do we know him as a master swimmer? And the answer is not till now. Brett is back in the water and aiming for the Masters World Championships in Doha next February. He takes us inside his training and, as the provocateur he is, gives us a few juicy thoughts about the state of swimming in general.

Danielle Spurling: 0:55

Let's hear from Brett now. Hi Brett, welcome to the podcast.

Brett Hawke: 1:01

Hey thanks for having me. I appreciate it, Danielle.

Danielle Spurling: 1:02

Oh, you're really welcome Now. I'm sure everyone that is listening knows about your successes in the swimming world. but just to recap to make sure everyone's on the same page dual Olympian, Olympic gold medal winning coach, NCAA winning coach, founder and host of "Inside with Brett Hawke's Swimming podcast All these accolades why are you getting back in the water to be a Masters swimmer now?

Brett Hawke: 1:26

Good question. Well, listen, i've had people kind of pestering me for a while Along the same lines of why did I start a podcast? People are pestering me for that. And I haven't had an urge or an itch necessarily until up to about a couple of years ago, like I've been coaching. When you're on the pool deck, the last thing you want to do is get back into a pool.

Brett Hawke: 1:52

And when I retired at 31, i was pretty set with my career. I felt like I squeezed everything I needed to squeeze out. I'd lost that urge to want to be the best in the world, and so I shifted right. And it wasn't until I turned about 45 where you start to think to yourself like I'm not looking that good from my age, i'm not feeling that good, what am I good at? And you feel comfortable in the water, and so I guess.

Brett Hawke: 2:23

And then I had people all around me saying you should do masters, you should do masters, and just I kept putting it off and putting it off. But when it's constantly in your head, eventually it kind of sits there for a while and you start to think about it. So ultimately I think it was just the right timing for it. A couple of things happened in my life where I was like you know what I want to get back to, just feeling good about myself, i want to get back to health and fitness and spending time on me a little bit rather than spending time on everybody else's health and fitness, and so I think just the timing is right for you.

Danielle Spurling: 3:02

And I noticed the other day you said that you were going to be aiming for the world champs in Doha. So that's eight months out now. What's your training regime going to look like in the water and on dry land? heading into that, that's?

Brett Hawke: 3:18

a good question. Yeah, so I've. Just, i'm still living in Boston. I just finished up a job here working for a tech company And I'm going to be moving back to California. So I'm going to be moving out to Irvine, which is basically Dave Saylor's backyard. You know he's got a beautiful facility there, beautiful pool. The place I'm moving into has an outdoor 25-yard pool right outside my apartment room.

Brett Hawke: 3:44

So it's like it's there's no excuse. You know the sun, the sun's out all the time in California, so it's just the right timing. So it'll be about about three weeks from now that I'll be heading out there. So I kind of wanted to make this declaration to myself and then to everybody else, like I'm going to do this. You know now's the time to do it. So in, you know I've started to prep for the next three weeks, and so what will it look like is a good question, i think. ultimately, you know when I first start off, i haven't been training now. Or you know we're talking, we're talking 15 years in the pool, you know so it's a it's a lifetime out of the pool.

Brett Hawke: 4:25

But you know, so I think I'll ease back in to maybe like anyone would like, i'd recommend for anybody, you know when you're when you're first getting into something is ease into it. So probably start with three workouts a week for a month And then I'll build into, you know, four, and then I'll build into five And then I'll see if I need any more than that. I feel I feel pretty comfortable that I can get enough done in five workouts. My workout structure is obviously going to be sprint focused And I feel really good about the plan I can put together for that. I'm a big believer in.

Brett Hawke: 5:05

If you want to, if you want to race fast, you've got to train fast. You know I. That's how. That's my philosophy for everybody I coached, you know. So it'll be technique based, slow technique swimming, working on skills and drills, and then it'll be fast swimming, and so I'm only going to need, you know, 30 minutes in the pool to get that done. You know I can. I can do some land work, like you said, some dry land work, to kind of some pre-work before I get into the pool. Then I'll get in the pool, i'll do a short warmup, i'll get into my speed, i'll obviously work on some technique work as well during that time and, yeah, 30 minutes is all I need.

Brett Hawke: 5:46

So I'm looking at about five workouts a week, 30 minutes in the pool, and then I love cross training. So you know, i think strength training is important for fast swimming, for sure. But again, i'm at the stage of my life where I don't want it to just be a grind, i want to have fun with it. So I'll probably do some classes. You know some, you know like, i guess, some cross fit classes, so classes where there's people around you. I mean, i think that's going to be important for me, starting off, and then, as I progress and as I start to get a little bit more detailed, then I might move into what do I need specifically for the events that I'm going to train for over the next? you know, six months type thing. So but initially it'll just be having fun with it, you know.

Danielle Spurling: 6:34

Yeah, well, that's what masters is all about Having fun and connecting with, maybe, people that you knew when you were swimming, but a whole group of people that are passionate about swimming. You mentioned Dave. Dave Salo, are you going to swim with his master's team there? Is it the Nova Masters?

Brett Hawke: 6:50

Yeah, no, i'm not going to. I'm going to. I'm going to go on this journey with a group of people around the world. You know, i'm going to, i'm going to start this journey and I'm going to open it up to anyone who wants to join me. So I'm going to be doing it with people. I'm going to say here's my workouts. You can join me and we can do it together.

Brett Hawke: 7:10

You know, initially, when I, when I launched my website in about a week from now, on breadhawkcom, i'm going to have different levels for different people. Right, there's going to be four different levels, basically a beginner level, kind of intermediate and advanced and an elite. And I'll be working in the elite level. That's just where, where I am. You know, like I'm, i've always considered myself an elite athlete, so I'll definitely be straight into that.

Brett Hawke: 7:38

But, but I want to open it up to everybody and say come and join this journey with me. And and we can compare notes you know I'm going to be in in just as much pain as everybody else is going to be in for a while, you know. So it's like I want to open it up to people who want to join me And, and you know, my, my girlfriend, carrie Hain, is also going to join me in this as well, and she is an ex former athlete who swam for the US at the at the world championships. She's 42 years old, so she's kind of in that, in that age bracket where you know she wants to be healthy and happy as well. So we're going to, we're going to do this together And I want it to be a community type thing And anyone who wants to join in can can join us with us, you know.

Danielle Spurling: 8:23

Yeah, that sounds amazing. You had a personal best time in your 50 free of 22. 07, do you reckon you can get back to that or surpass it?

Brett Hawke: 8:34

I don't know. That's an interesting question, because technology has changed, right, the blocks are different these days, the swimsuits are certainly different, the type of training, the specificity that we do now is different. So a lot has changed. The recovery is is massively different, right, the different modalities that that we have in recovery these days. So so much has changed since I was swimming at my best. So, i mean, the reality is probably not right, that's what you would say to yourself. But you know, once I get going, this thing starts moving, then Maybe you know, maybe I'm gonna, i'm gonna leave myself, the possibility is gonna be open to Maybe get back to my best, based on all those different variables.

Danielle Spurling: 9:25

Yeah, I reckon you're a good chance. Have you checked out the world record in the 45 to 49 years?

Brett Hawke: 9:31

Yeah, it's 23, five. I think I got that. Oh, i don't think, i don't think I have to worry about Being able to go that fast. I I know for sure I can do that. You know, the 22 oh sevens, a different different kettle of fish, you know that's. That's at the elite level where a lot of the World's best swimmers are at, and I don't know if I had it as a 48 year old man. I'm at that level anymore. So I think that's it might be a stretch. But, like I said, so much has changed and I'm willing to kind of give it a crack and see where we end up. But I know that I can get under that world record for sure.

Danielle Spurling: 10:08

Have you done a bit of a time trial to see where you're at now? No, no, no, nothing.

Brett Hawke: 10:16

I've jumped in the water and had a splash around and I feel good. You know like I'm If anybody follows me on Instagram, you see that I'm in good shape now Like I've taken care of myself outside of the pool in the last Couple of years, especially before that I was. I was a complete mess, you know I was. I was so out of shape and. But you know, i think one thing that has always been good for me is I've had good genetics. You know I've got to thank my mom and dad for for that aspect of my athleticism. I've always been athletic. I've always had good genes.

Brett Hawke: 10:52

Even when I was out of shape, i was, i was. You wouldn't consider, you know, i wouldn't look at myself and think to myself Oh my god, what a mess, you know. But I'm like, but I wasn't what I was and I certainly wasn't what I am right now. I mean I'm in much better shape. So at 48 I would I'd probably compare myself to Being in the type of shape that I was, you know, towards the end of my career at 31. So I Feel really good about that. I don't think it's going to be difficult to get back into some racing shape. Yeah.

Danielle Spurling: 11:24

Will you just focus on the 50s or are you going to push it out to the hundreds?

Brett Hawke: 11:28

I've always just focused on the 50s. I've never been a hundred guy. Now, short, short course yards in America, maybe I'll have a have a dig at a couple of those, but um no, i've never really been interested in The hundreds themselves. I've always, i've always loved this, the flat-out speed events. So I'll stick to probably 50 fly 53 primarily to begin with, and that's where I am, i imagine.

Danielle Spurling: 11:55

And is this world champs going to be a one-off for you, or is this a sort of a long-term journey that you're about to embark on?

Brett Hawke: 12:00

Yeah, I mean it's exciting, i think, for me. Again, i'm looking at Some holistic lifestyle changes in terms of really embracing, swimming into my life again. So I'm not I'm not chasing a record, you know, even though I just said that I could definitely get under the world record In my mind. I'm not chasing that. That's not what I'm doing this for. I'm doing this because I want to go on a journey with people in terms of physical, mental health and Just just getting back, like taking control of your life again as as an You know, middle-aged man now, and saying to myself like what, we don't need to be out of shape, we don't need to be unhealthy physically or mentally, like, we can be in really good shape.

Brett Hawke: 12:44

We can, we can feel really good about ourselves, even even under conditions of of people that are flat out with work, right, like I just think that we, we should be putting ourselves again at the top of the list of priorities and and that's what I want to do for myself and that's what I want to show other people that they can do that too. So the the records themselves, you know, they may interest other people and I'm sure that They'll be talked about, but I'm really more interested in the journey, for sure, yeah, and.

Danielle Spurling: 13:21

Coming into Masters you'll have to record some times in competition. Have you got your eye on anything coming up where you can put some qualifying times in?

Brett Hawke: 13:32

No, some people have reached out to me already. I did. I did join US Masters just last week, so I signed up for a team and And, like I said, i'm about three weeks away from getting back into the initial stages of training again. So I'm I'm going to start that. I'm going to look at, i'm going to look at about a month worth of work and say, okay, after a month I feel pretty good that I can start to consider competitions again. I think before then it's just me just getting back in the, in the pool and getting back into You know, some racing shapes, so that that'll take about a month, but beyond that. So, yeah, i'd probably say that I'm going to be looking at events Somewhere. You know, probably October, november, december around there. So I'll jump into the calendar and see what is available within the US for sure.

Danielle Spurling: 14:24

Have you ever been to a Masters meet before?

Brett Hawke: 14:27

Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah, i've been to a couple. I've actually coached some Masters athletes and You know, just on the side, just as just as an interest of mine, you know, and I didn't publicize it, was just very private between a couple of people and we had a lot of success with it and was a lot of fun to watch them In their journey and and just get them to understand what swimming fast is. You know, i, i think this is look, it's, it's not a, it's not something that is just, you know, a Masters swimming issue. I think that in swimming in general, we, we just have to be able to do that And and and there's laziness in coaching. Right, it doesn't matter if it's at the elite level or the Masters level or the club level or the age group level. There's laziness and I'm not calling anyone out in particular, i'm just saying that We can do better as coaches and and when I see a lot of Masters programs, i'm just saying that We can do better as coaches and and when I see a lot of Masters programs, to me it's just they're very generic and it's just kind of like they just they're just going through the motions. But that's the same with with High school programs or club programs or even elite sprint programs.

Brett Hawke: 15:47

I'm like There are people that are really open to how do I get faster, how do we swim faster? and then there are people who are just like Here's what we do, shut up and do it, don't ask any questions, and I've never been that type of coach. So when I'm looking at Masters swimmers and myself in particular, as well as as now as a Masters swimmer, i want to say, well, how can I, how can I get faster? I don't want to just swim up and down a pool for the sake of swimming up and down a pool, like I. I Love the competition too, and I love The competition within myself to say, well, how can I get myself faster? And I know that every Masters athlete that does this seriously enough Ask those questions too, like they don't want to stay at that level. They they're all. Everyone's always trying to get better and always trying to get faster, and So that's the approach I'll be taking.

Danielle Spurling: 16:39

Yeah, and I know you said that you're you're going to spend about 30 minutes in the water Swimming fast. What exactly are you going to do? Like give us an example.

Brett Hawke: 16:50

I've always, i've always enjoyed mixing up equipment. So you know the way that I've always coached my athletes and the way that I would coach myself, and that's actually one of those things that I've often looked back on and thought to myself Wow, i wish I was writing workouts for myself back when I was an athlete. I would have been so much better. And so now I actually get that chance to do that. So I've always, i've always had the philosophy that I want my athletes to walk off the deck feeling successful. You know I want them to finish The whatever they're doing towards the end of their practices. I want that to be the best stuff they've done or practice. So I tend to build my practices. I don't I don't go in and try and kill my athletes up front. You know, within the first 10, 15 minutes I want them to get faster and faster and faster. Now, when you are training speed, you do break down fairly quickly because you're you're at that high, highest intensity that you could possibly be at. So this is where I start to bring in equipment throughout the workout. So you know, if I was to coach myself, let's say, in a simple set of training, you know, you know you're going to be in a training area. So if I was to do a simple set of 25s, right, i would maybe start them to send one to four. You know, let's say I'm going, let's say I'm going, 40, 25s really fast, right, the first, the first set of 12, i might just say to send one to four, to send one to four, to send one to four, that type of thing. So you kind of just building up The next set of 12, i might say, well, i want them to be all fast with no equipment, you know. And then the next set of 12, i might say, well, i want to, i want to be all fast and we'll put paddles on this time and we'll swim with some paddles, and then, you know, maybe the last round Would be like fins and paddle. So you're just getting faster with adding some equipment as well, so that that could be one way that you would work a speed set.

Brett Hawke: 18:50

Another thing that I that I love doing is resistance work. You know, i love, i love the challenge of resistance And again, i think that you want to get faster and faster as you go on resistance as well. So maybe I might do a set of parachutes where, you know we have different varieties of parachute these days. You know you have bigger ones and then you have smaller ones. So I might say, well, we'll start with a bigger parachute, will pull some, pull some parachutes, and then as we go down, still swimming fast, we might reduce the size of the parachute and then again we might add equipment to that. So you're swimming with resistance but you're also adding equipment to that as well. So, like I like to just mix it up. You know I like to challenge with different equipment but, like I said, i'm always looking at getting faster and always looking at walking off the pool deck feeling successful and walking off with a smile If you walk off with a smile.

Brett Hawke: 19:50

You tend to walk back on with a smile. You know, if you walk off, feel useless and unsuccessful, last thing you want to do is rush back to the pool again.

Danielle Spurling: 20:08

I know you were a coach or a head coach eventually at Auburn University and one of and you've just mentioned that 40x25, which is sort of a bit of the Auburn sprint set, that sort of floats around. a lot of master swimmers do that set. I don't think they do it just like you've described it then, but was that something that you came up with?

Brett Hawke: 20:28

I actually came up with 100x25. So that's a very famous set that I came up with. I was actually in coaching at Auburn University My first year, and David Marsh was the head coach, and during Thanksgiving We actually get the athletes and we can we can coach them as much as we want, and so what we usually do before we send them home for Thanksgiving is we, we Work them really, really hard, and I remember One particular day David came up to me and basically said All right, bro, i want you to write a workout that's memorable. I want them to walk, i want them to leave here for Thanksgiving and think to themselves That's the toughest thing I've ever done. I want them to feel like they've just been hit by a truck and but but in a good way, you know Like wow, what the hell was that kind of thing. And so I really sat there and thought to myself, like You know, like all the tough sets had already been done before in my. When I talk about tough sets, you talk about, you know, long, arduous type workouts where you're just getting pounded and pounded, and I thought to myself, well, i like the concept of that, but I don't. I want to do it fast. You know, like I want them to do, i want them to feel fast, i want them to feel like they're just getting beat up and just for the sake of beat up, so I'm not gonna give them twelve, two hundred's butterfly. You know that type of thing. Then that's kind of that was always the mentality in swimming. And so I thought, well, yeah, i like the idea of working really hard for an extended period of time, but I like I want to go fast doing it.

Brett Hawke: 22:07

So I started to ride out these 25s and as I went down I just kept going and I thought to myself, wonder how many we could do Swimming at a hundred pace. So if you, if you're at the pace you want to be, wonder how much we could do. And I ended up riding 10 sets of 10 and the interval. Actually, we started off with a very loose interval. So you basically started the first 10 on a minute and then the way I wrote it out was you would drop five seconds on The interval, each 10. So it was 55, 50, 45, 40. So I got faster and faster and harder, and harder and harder. And I looked at it. I was like wonder if we can actually do this. This is, this is crazy 125s, a hundred pace, you know, on a descending interval.

Brett Hawke: 22:52

And I bought it to the athletes and they were like That sounds really difficult, but let's give it a go and I tell you what it was. Just them, it was just the best set I've ever experienced. That that day was just magic and they all bought into it and they all ate it up. But they were all Completely wiped out by the end of it and they were just said that that's the hardest thing they've ever done. It was just again to set a 25s. They walked away from that and I think the workout ended up taking it's about two and a half hours, you know, because we we had Cool down in between each set of 10 and so I wanted them to be ready to go. I wanted them to give a hundred percent each of the 10 25s that they did, so they had to do 10 rounds of that.

Brett Hawke: 23:35

So, that's kind of where it started, and I think there's just being variations of that over time, you know.

Danielle Spurling: 23:41

Yeah, it's definitely a legendary set that you came up with yeah. Yeah, my master's some squad pull that out all the time when we're doing sprinting, but we don't do it quite, quite like that. Yeah, a little bit more rest maybe.

Brett Hawke: 23:57

Yeah, look at, rest is important for sure. You know, i think I think it when you're, when you're trying to hurt somebody, you can manipulate the rest, that I get much of it. But But then the quality comes down. So you got it. You always got this balance between well, how do I want it to look, how good do I want it, how much rest should I give? and so, certainly, as the rest comes down, it becomes more difficult to keep the quality and the standard.

Brett Hawke: 24:20

But then also that the Mental side of it. You know, we often talk How do you, how do you train? How do you train Your brain in the pool? how do you, how do you train? from mental toughness. Well, mental toughness is about Consistency over time, and so when you're, when you're swimming fast for a period of two and a half hours, you've got to be mentally switched on and you've got to be ready to go every repeat. I don't want them to take a repeat off. It's like you take a repeat off and we'll and we'll do it again, you know. So it's like give me everything. You've got, every repeat. So just focus on the one that you're giving me, don't focus on the 87 that are still left to come. I want you to focus on this one and then switch off, and then the next one and switch off, and so When they do it that way, it that that's mental toughness, you know?

Danielle Spurling: 25:09

yeah, yeah, i love that because a lot of people sort of save up for that last, that last 10, that they know that's coming. But you know if you can get your mind around Working on the one you're at. It's obviously beneficial long-term.

Brett Hawke: 25:24

Yeah, yeah, listen, look, like I said to you at the beginning of the, swimming fast is The the goal, right? like everybody wants to race fast, but you can't race fast unless you train fast. It's that's always been my philosophy. I've had tremendous amount of success with it as a sprint coach When I was, when I was an athlete, as I aged up and I started to take more control of my training as an older athlete, i started to realize like I'm only good when I'm training fast. That's, that's what I'm really good, you know.

Brett Hawke: 25:57

And and there was a lot of threshold work, there was a lot of, you know, just swimming up and down the pool for the sake of it to fill in time. I was like this is silly. Like I want to swim with a purpose. I want to. I want to train the way I want to Train the way I want to race. You know I want to race really fast, so I've got to train that way. So When I started doing that with my athletes, i started having a tremendous amount of success. And look, you see, you see a lot of programs all around the world now They're they're very skill orientated, they're very detail oriented there and and they're very Race pace or like race pace wasn't a thing that we did 20 years ago. Very often You might, you might do race pace once a week. Now people are putting in race pace every practice, you know. So that that's where swimming is really taken off. And and why can't master swimmers do that? You know. Why can't they swim space? you know.

Danielle Spurling: 26:51

That's right. Looking back to when you were an athlete in between Sydney Olympics and Athens and You said you started to have a bit more sort of say in your workouts. Hmm who were you working with at that time? which coach and how did you sort of put that on the table to get those workouts in?

Brett Hawke: 27:11

I was working with Ian Pope and before that I was working with Brian Sutton and Brian Sutton is a brilliant coach. But I didn't have the Confidence in myself to say, hey, i want to do things this way. And so after the 2003 world championships, i swam well and made the final, but I I went to Brian, said I want to make a change, and so I shifted to Ian Pope down in Melbourne and Went down there and basically just said to Pope you said, look, this is going to be a partnership. I'm I'm at the end of my career. I'm going to go to the Olympics for me. I've already done an Olympics. I did.

Brett Hawke: 27:55

I did 2000 and you know, i did it for everybody who'd ever helped me and and Everybody who had helped me were there at that Olympics. It was my home Olympics. So I felt, i felt like I had Given everybody everything I needed to give them right like that. That's your Olympics. I gave that to you. I'm going to go to Athens and this one's going to be for me. I'm going to do it my way. I'm going to swim from me. No one's invited, you're not allowed to come. You can watch it on TV. I'm going to Athens for me, and then that's what.

Brett Hawke: 28:28

I did, and I ended up making the final in Athens and And giving it, squeezing every ounce of it out that I could. But but in terms of the training, i had a little bit more say. Now, that's not to say that I was certainly Writing all the workouts or anything like that, but I definitely had some influence in how I wanted to do things and that just felt good at that time, which then kind of Propelled me into coaching because it made me think. You know, i think before I was just tell me what to do and I'll do it, whereas as an as an older athlete between you know, 2003 and 2006 for those three years when I was training with the Impo, i had the ability to think and say I'm not, i don't want to do that. Today I want to do this or I want to do that and this is how I want to do it. And So he did give me that freedom. It was, it was a partnership, you know, and that's that's what I really liked about it.

Danielle Spurling: 29:22

And you coached Cesar to a gold medal in Beijing in the 50 freestyle. How did that partnership start and How did you use everything that you learned from your career as an athlete into helping him win that 50?

Brett Hawke: 29:37

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean the. The partnership started because I went to Auburn to coach As an assistant for David Marsh and basically at that time David was coaching Caesar for the 200 freestyle and Caesar was from Brazil, which we all know, and he's living in Alabama. He's there and David's training for the 200 and When I got there, david basically said look, i got this young kid who's talented. I think he'd be a great 200 freestyler. He just doesn't see it in himself. He does not want to swim the 200 free. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna stick him with you and just get him to go fast. That's, that's all I want. Just make sure he doesn't go home, because we don't want him to lose his confidence, because we don't want him to leave, and Just get him to get him to be happy and get him to swim fast.

Brett Hawke: 30:23

And I'd never written workouts before. Like I said, i thought about. You know how I wanted to structure things, but David gave me that freedom To to create, and, and so that's what I started to do. So I started to think to myself Well, again, this is where that philosophy of Wanting them to walk off the deck happy and smiley, but I always thought to myself, well, that's how I would want to be coached. I want to. I want to feel like man. I just someone just kicked me up the butt, but it felt good and I want to come back and do that again, you know.

Brett Hawke: 30:52

So the philosophy started there with Caesar really, and We just clicked and we had immediate success with it. And he, he went from being unhappy every workout to very happy every workout, um, and doing the things that made him feel good and And swimming very fast. In practice He wanted to swim fast and pretty, didn't want to be doing pace 200 work and stuff like he wanted to go fast. And so when we started to do that and he wanted, we started to bring in resistance and power and all that sort of stuff and and race pace. You know, he, he just ate it up and so, um, we, we, we just had a mini success and again It was a partnership.

Brett Hawke: 31:34

I took the same philosophy of the way that Ian Pope treated me. It was like, hey, we're in this together. I know a lot about sprinting, but I don't know a lot about you. You know more than anybody about yourself. So, like, how do you feel? What do you want to do? like and it was more of like Him just giving me feedback, that's that's ultimately what it was. But but then me imparting my knowledge and experience on. Well, i'm telling you, i've been through this, i've watched it, i've witnessed it, i've experienced it. This is, this is the way we need to do things, based on everything that I know about this and him, and so it was like a, an agreement like he would, he would trust me, i would trust him and we kind of met, met in the middle, and that's where we had a lot of success.

Danielle Spurling: 32:21

Yeah, huge amount of success.

Brett Hawke: 32:23

Yeah, yeah, we did.

Danielle Spurling: 32:25

Did he ever doubt himself before that final?

Brett Hawke: 32:28

No, not before the final. He would always doubt himself. He would always put a lot of pressure on himself to be better. Look, caesar, see, caesar's a different type of athlete, right, like I can't compare him to many people because he had a standard for himself That was above and beyond what anybody normally would have for themselves. Like, caesar Had visions of himself being Olympic champion from a very young age, caesar had visions of himself being a world record holder. So That's where it didn't align with what David was seeing for him.

Brett Hawke: 33:05

Like I think you can be a great 200 freestyle. I said no, no, no, i'm gonna be an Olympic champion in in sprinting in the 50 and the 100. That's, that's what I see in myself. So when I, when I came over and started and and I Believed in that for him as well, and I saw that too I was like, ah, this, this kid's talented and special. Then He didn't. He didn't ever doubt his ability. But but then, but then when he would rest, you know he would start to doubt of light wall, have I done the work to be as good as I think I am kind of thing. That's where I would just come in and just work it and massage it, you know, mentally, and just be like, get him in the right spot to be like listen, trust me, where we're exactly where we need to be, and And so that that's where a little bit of the coaching comes in, you know.

Danielle Spurling: 33:57

What? what was his sort of prime skill in that 50? Was it his dive? Was it his technique?

Brett Hawke: 34:04

Yeah, i Mean his prime skill was his power. He was, he was the most powerful sprinter that I've ever coached. You know, like if you were to put a resistance on him, he could pull it harder than anybody I'd ever seen pull. But he was also physically gifted, you know, big hands, big feet, long limbs and Could, could catch water, like, was very good at catching water early. He didn't have much slip at all, he didn't have many bubbles around his hands. See, he, he would put his hand in the water and it would hold water and and and he could pull water. So that was ultimately his biggest gift, is his feel for the water and his pull on the water, something that you just, you know you can't teach many people that. It's not something that it's like, hey, at that level you know what I mean, like and so, yeah, so when he was in the, in the pool, he could just pull buckets of water and, and that was his ultimate gift, i would say, and you know, he had.

Brett Hawke: 35:16

He had competitors. It wasn't like he ran away with the thing, but He was also very mentally strong. Again, behind the blocks, he had this tremendous Belief in him. So once he was behind the blocks, once he's behind the blocks, he thought I'm, i'm unbeatable, you know, i'm, i'm, i'm the man, i think, i am, type thing, you know. But it took him to get behind the block before before that. But, um, so those two things were his biggest qualities, i'd say that's really interesting.

Danielle Spurling: 35:45

I haven't heard that before, so that's great. You worked with Cody Simpson just at the beginning when he hopped back into the water. How did that all come about? share, share with us how that little relationship started.

Brett Hawke: 35:59

I actually wanted to do a podcast with him because I knew he was kind of a Swimming enthusiast at the time and and I knew he was a famous musician And so I was just looking for a podcast guest and and he had kind of a background in swimming. I thought I might be cool to talk to him and so I got, i got his number through a friend and And I text him and I said, hey, would you be interested in doing a podcast? He said and he's like you know, not really, but I'm I'm interested in Finding a coach. Could you help me do that? I was like, really, like you want to swim? He's like, yeah, i think I want to swim, i want to. I want to start swimming, swimming full-time. I was like you're one of the Best young musicians in the world. Why would you want to do that? And so we went through a process of kind of talking back and forward of like why he would want to do it and And just it came to a point where I was like, well, i'm not going to keep questioning me if he wants to do it. Then And again it was just at a point in my life where I was like well, if you want to do this seriously, then you have to find a serious coach. And I'm, i'm, i'm available right now. So, like, would you want to work with me? He's like, yeah, let's give it a try. So I started sending him workouts For about a month on his own and then I moved out to California and Started working with him.

Brett Hawke: 37:22

But just as I moved out, it was it was right at the start of the pandemic, and so As soon as I moved there, everything shut down, you know, completely shut down. So we had to get Super creative. So the first few workouts, you know, for first few months, we're just in a backyard pool of like 10 meters long and he was on a stretch cord. So, like It started off really in really difficult circumstances. We did a lot more again. We did a lot more of the the outside of the pool work where he was just getting fitness and getting his flexibility and getting his strength and just Just feeling like an athlete, like doing athletic things. So, yeah, we, we did some interesting stuff. We were running hills and we were doing we're running on the beach and we were swimming in the ocean was just It was just one of those things where you had to figure it out.

Danielle Spurling: 38:09

But yeah, it was just.

Brett Hawke: 38:10

It was a great Start to a really fun relationship, you know.

Danielle Spurling: 38:17

What's your take on the Aussie trials last week? I mean, the media here is saying, oh, Cody bombed out. Not that I think that, because he's on a journey to next year, but what's your take on where he's sitting at the moment?

Brett Hawke: 38:29

You know, i think he wasn't as successful as I would have hoped He could have been. you know, and I think he'll be the first one to admit that, like I don't think he swam to the standard that he's able to swim out in the hundred butterfly I'm talking about the hundred butterflies, the event that he's really training for And I think he has the most potential in.

Brett Hawke: 38:50

I honestly think if he had to just swam his best time, it would have put him on that team, because Kyle Chalmers, basically, was right right around his best time and, uh, and finished second. So, like I do think Cody, in this, in this sense, and this, this event right here that we're talking about, didn't swim to his potential And I think he'll he'll be the first to admit that. Um, so it was kind of like the first setback for him where he didn't swim to to his abilities. Well, whereas before I think he was out swimming himself. Every time he got in the pool was like, oh my God, like he's so far ahead. You know he's been training really hard for this.

Brett Hawke: 39:27

So this, this is certainly a setback, but it's not the, it's not like the end of the row. We all have setbacks, like every one of us has has moments where we're just off our best and we're like dang, like, what can I do better? And I think that's kind of where he's reflecting right now is like, okay, could have been better, i should have been better, why wasn't I? and how can I make it happen? And and anyone that missed the, this Australian team, we had people at the Australian trials win events and didn't didn't make the qualifying time, you know. So it's like, and some of them weren't selected. So look, there's a bunch of people having asked themselves the same questions. Just Cody's so public And people expect so much of him that any any little setback is like this tragic event. And it's not a tragic event, it's just a reevaluation of like okay, what can I do better?

Danielle Spurling: 40:19

Yeah, no, absolutely. There was a lot of people that missed out that. I thought were really stiff. Unfortunately, you know they could have taken some of those younger athletes for a bit of experience, because it's.

Brett Hawke: 40:31

It wasn't a full team, so yeah, yeah, there's definitely an argument for that.

Brett Hawke: 40:36

And then there's an argument to say well, i did talk to Rowan Taylor at the event and I spoke to him live at the ball And basically he said, look, we're going to make this one tough, but we're going to open up a bunch of travel events for anyone that doesn't make this team. We're going to go to wall cups and things like that. So they are investing a lot of money in traveling and racing for anyone that was closed or anyone that you know they potentially think could make the Olympic team. So it's not. It's not the end of the line to say, well, you're not going to get any more opportunities till next year. There's going to be a bunch of opportunities for people like Cody to go and race internationally over the next few months. They just they wanted people at the world championships who are going to make finals And on paper, some of those kids weren't making finals right now. So I guess you could. You could argue both ways, you know.

Danielle Spurling: 41:26

Yeah, no, it's it's. I understand they're thinking it's just I feel sorry for those kids that missed out.

Brett Hawke: 41:32

Oh yeah, listen, i've been one of those people that have missed in the past. you know, like I, i I finished third at the Olympic trials in 96. And you know, sitting, sitting at home watching actually, actually you know what, at the Olympic trials I finished six in the hundred freestyle and, and they can take top six, and for the for the Atlanta Olympics they only took the top five. They actually left me home and I made the qualifying standard. So that was, that was devastating. It was tough, you know, and you do have to kind of wrestle with that as an athlete. but you know, hopefully it can make you stronger and you come out of it and you think yourself well, that was kind of a blessing in disguise. So you know, depends on the athlete.

Danielle Spurling: 42:15

I always think of you on your social media channels as a little bit of a provocateur, And I noticed that this morning you put out a list, a list of your top 10 male sprinters, which has caused quite a stir. Have you looked at all the comments this morning?

Brett Hawke: 42:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're blowing up at me.

Danielle Spurling: 42:31

Quite a blow up.

Brett Hawke: 42:32

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's so difficult to pick 10. Like I was going through it Actually, you know what. You know it started. I was on my Instagram today and they I saw some basketball thing you know where they picked the top five basketball players. You know, someone had put out a list of the top five players. They thought, if the world was ending, who would be your top five basketball players? That was the kind of thing that it was And that kind of got me that stirred my thinking of like well, who are the top five sprinters that I'd want to save the save the planet? And so I actually started a list of five and I and I got to, i got to six. And I was like I can't get to five, i've got six. And I was like, well, i got six, i might as well just stretch it to 10. And then when I went to 10, i had like 11, 12, 13 and 14. I was like, what do I do now? So I was like you know what, brett, screw it, just put out your 10.

Danielle Spurling: 43:26

And let's see what happens, and yeah, there was a lot of controversy you know, see what happened Are you going to? are you going to put out 10 female sprinters?

Brett Hawke: 43:37

Yeah, I am going to have to now! Yeah, but really stepped in it, haven't I? So I'll have to put out 10 female Again. I spent about you know 30 minutes thinking about this and didn't realize it was going to take on. You know what it has. So now I'm going to have to even it out and pick my. So I'll probably put more thought into the women than I did the men, but see what happens, you know.

Danielle Spurling: 43:59

And what was your reasoning for leaving off Caleb Dressel?

Brett Hawke: 44:05

It's a good question, you know, and you know you can look. The 10 that I picked are worthy of the 10,. First of all, the reason why I left off Caleb is I still I haven't said this publicly, so this is going to be the first time I say this publicly. I'll probably get in trouble for this.

Brett Hawke: 44:29

I have trouble personally with the fact that he was picked as the captain of the world championship team last year And he left halfway through the meeting, didn't tell any of the other athletes. I have a personal issue with that. Now that doesn't mean that I don't even know all the information. I just know what I know And I'm not on the inside of it. So I don't know. I don't know the ins and outs of it. But if, if I was picked as the captain of the Australian team, there is no chance in hell I'm leaving that team halfway through the meet. It's just, it's not. Nothing could stop me, nothing, nothing, unless someone put a bullet in me. That's the only thing. And so this is a personal feeling for me.

Brett Hawke: 45:17

I have an issue that he left and I have never said it publicly, and so, when it comes down to the top 10, greatest of all time, i need an explanation before I can put him in there. Now, if I, if I get one, i get one, if I don't, i don't see, he doesn't. he doesn't owe me an explanation, but I don't. I don't owe him a reason to not put him in either. You know like that's my reason. So look, and the other thing is he's been very successful at one Olympics for sure, and a lot of the guys that I put in you know what kind of multiple Olympians and things like that. You know multiple Olympic medals back to back, all medals, things like that.

Brett Hawke: 45:54

So yeah, it was a tough, tough top 10. But could he be in there? Yeah, he could be in there, you know, but I'd have to take, i'd have to take someone off And then then I'd be arguing well, why don't I take that person out as well? But look, if Caleb goes to Paris and repeats as a, as a champion again, there's no doubt that he's probably the greatest sprinter in history, you know. But that's, that's still a romance. To be seen What Caleb's going to do over the next 12 months.

Danielle Spurling: 46:24

Yeah, because you have to then compare him to Popov

Brett Hawke: 46:27

Yeah, yeah, you got Peter Vanhooghman who went back to back in the hundred freestyle. You know, like this, there's arguments for everyone that I put in there. There's arguments for all of them. And you know, some people might say, well, how did Tom, Tom Jagger get in? Tom Jagger, to me, is just like a godfather of sprinting, like you know, he's just the man that each, each he, him and Matt Biondi just changed sprinting and the way that we think about sprinting. They were like the godfathers, those two, and so, like, I'm always going to put them on the list no matter what, even if they don't have the credentials, or maybe some of these other guys, but Matt Biondi does, for sure, but not Tom Jagger. So, yeah, that's, you know, like there's arguments for all of it, and but that's the fun part about it. But, yeah, i'm going to get in trouble now for everything that I just said about Caleb.

Danielle Spurling: 47:12

No, no, Give us a bit of a prediction for Paris next year. Women's 100 and men's 100 free winners.

Brett Hawke: 47:23

Men's 100 free. I David Popovich for sure. Like I'm putting, i'm putting all my all my chips on the table with David Popovich in the 100 and 200. I think that at this stage nobody's shown me that they're going to be able to beat him. You know there's a lot of great swimmers, but I think David Popovich is just the best of the best.

Brett Hawke: 47:48

He's a, he's a generational talent. He's so well rounded. I mean he's the full package. Like you listen to him talk and then you watch him swim and then you're like you know, you know he's a coach and you know his family is like how are you going to beat that guy? I should be. Good luck trying to beat that. So so Popovich is an easy choice for me, you know, barring injury or illness, right? So there's that. On the women's side, i think it is a little bit more open, right? You have any number of Aussie women who could get it done at the trials and then are going to be in the top, you know, top three at the Olympics, for sure. You know, like the top five Aussie women are in the top 10 in the world right now, you know.

Brett Hawke: 48:37

So it's like it's crazy how good the women are, so it's like to pick. To pick one of them, you would have to say, well, they're going to win the Australian trials and then they're going to go on and win the Olympics. That would be the thinking. So yeah, so hotly contested. I think Molly O'Callaghan is putting herself in a brilliant position to be that person. Emma McKinney has obviously got track record of being an Olympic champion, so hot to bid against her. You know there's, like I said, there's any number of them, but I think it's going to be an Aussie woman, i think. I think the Aussie women will win the hundred free. It's just going to be who shows up on the day to win that trial event to get the, to get them a chance to be at the Olympics and swim individually.

Danielle Spurling: 49:25

Yeah, Yeah, absolutely, and everyone that comes on my podcast, Brett, i like to ask them a deep dive. five questions quickly about swimming. So from your point of view, what's the most important technical part of the fifty freestyle?

Brett Hawke: 49:49

It's holding yourstroketogether t t s together That's the, that's the toughest part. Like, anybody can get to the twenty five fairly quickly, but holding that together is the key to winning, you know. so the winner generally is between kind of the thirty and the and the forty five. like that, that, that gap in like.,.. like, if you can master that, hold your technique together, which which means length and and tempo, if you can hold those together, then you'll, you'll do really well.

Danielle Spurling: 50:22

Do you breathe at all on a fifty yourself?

Brett Hawke: 50:26

I didn't know. No, i didn't And I don't. I still don't think you need to on a fifty, but it needs to be well trained. But if, but if you do have a good breath where you don't lose that tempo and length and power and speed, then breathing is still a good, a good thing. It can get difficult, and so it has to be well trained, but it. But I still haven't seen anyone show me that breathing is faster than not breathing in the fifty.

Danielle Spurling: 51:00

hat's your What's favorite freestyle favourite drill?

Brett Hawke: 51:03

Favourite freestyle drill. I mean I put this on my social media. I love a good polo head up freestyle drill. The reason why I like the head up freestyle drill is if you do it correctly, you can position your hand the way I want your hand to be positioned. You catch water immediately. You get over the top of it, you're very high in the water but you're pressed as well. You have to keep your chin very steady. I don't want any side to side movements. So again, in sprint freestyle you don't want any movement up or down, side to side. So holding that position in a high head up freestyle is again key. And then you lock your core in. you keep your hips fairly flat, so you don't want tons of rotation in your. you know you want your hips fairly square and then you have to have good shoulder rotation in order to get over the top and get that length. So I've always been one to do a good head up freestyle drill, but doing it a certain way.

Danielle Spurling: 52:08

And are you better at kick or pull?

Brett Hawke: 52:12

I was definitely better at pool, but kick was something that I knew I needed to improve. So I put a lot of work into improving my kick to a point where it was just above average, but it was never elite. It was never the best kicker MichaelKlim K K K could kick me. You know all around the pool Matt Welsh. I trained with him What a brilliant kicker that guy was, and so, yeah, i was not in the elite, but I definitely had to make improvements.

Danielle Spurling: 52:44

And what's one drill that you could use to work on for an explosive dive?

Brett Hawke: 52:50

Explosive dive We used to do. You know, you put a resistance band around the block. You've got a block behind you here And what I would do is I'd put a resistance band on that metal part there And I would have it really tight and I would do explosive push offs the wall Right. So maybe do like five in a row explosive, so you'd push out, but the band would pull you back in really quickly. So it would have to be very, very tight. So you explode out five times, take the band off and then get up on the block and then do an explosive dive. So that's just a way to kind of like activate the power in your legs. So that's something that anybody can do, yeah.

Danielle Spurling: 53:32

Yeah, that's a good one. It's really hard to transfer that horizontal speed off the push off onto the blocks and vice versa.

Brett Hawke: 53:40

Yeah, yeah, it is Yeah. So you can get yourself in a track star position with a resistance band and push off the wall and then jump up on the block and then activate those legs like that. Yeah.

Danielle Spurling: 53:57

I know you've talked us through the Auburn sprint set, but what's your personal favorite freestyle set?

Brett Hawke: 54:03

I've put this out a few times. My personal favorite is a set that I actually did with Brian Sutton. I said that I'd train with him from 1999 to 2003 and he was a brilliant coach And his set is one that I repeat all the time. And so what I would do, and what he would do for me and then I'd do for all my athletes, is a 25 off the block at 100 speed. Then you do a 75 easy, so you basically get your time, you know, and then immediately start a 75 easy technique, good technique, so your heart rate is going, but you're holding. Good technique. You do a 75 and then you'd rest 10 to 20 seconds and you do a back end 50. And so you would, you basically want to be at your race pace of your second 50 of your 100. So let's say you're, you're training for the 100.

Brett Hawke: 55:00

Your first 25 would be, you know, 10, 8. If I was, if I was wanting to swim 48 seconds, i'd be 10, 8 for the first 25. I'd get my time, i go into a 75 technique, i'd rest 10 seconds and then I go into a 50, trying to push under 25 seconds. So you want to, you want to be under 25 seconds. Everybody who comes back these days are all coming back under 25 seconds. So that would be the goal. And then you would repeat that six times So you'd have a rest.

Brett Hawke: 55:30

After that, maybe swim another 100 easy. But the 100 easy this time would just be a flop, so you'd be on your back just doing some easy backstroke And then you do that six times. So that's easily my favorite set. It's very specific and it really gets you thinking about how you want to take out your 100 and how you want to bring it home. And there's enough cool down in there and there's enough technical work in there that gives you the recovery that you need to be able to back it up. And six rounds of that and you're you're cooked your toast.

Brett Hawke: 56:00

That's, that's easily my favorite set Yeah.

Danielle Spurling: 56:02

Yeah, that's a great one. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing all of that with us today. Brett, it's been so amazing talking to you and getting all your perspectives on everything in swimming.

Brett Hawke: 56:13

undefined you

Danielle Spurling: 56:15

Thank you very much And we'll put a link to your new website in the show notes so people can check that out Over the next week . all the master swimmers out there that are listening, i'm sure we'll will out what's happening.

Brett Hawke: 56:27

Yeah, i appreciate. Yeah, bretthawkcom, Get on it and come join the journey with me and we'll have a little bit of fun with it, You know. Thank you, Sounds great.

Danielle Spurling: 56:36

Good luck on your journey and hopefully we'll see you in Doha next year.

Brett Hawke: 56:39

I'll be there, all right. Thanks a lot, take care.

Danielle Spurling: 56:41

Okay, thanks. I loved, loved, loved this chat with Brett. It was so interesting hearing his perspective from all sides of swimming and it makes him a unique voice because he's got the swimming competitive side, coaching side, to such a high level, and now as a master swimmer. So thank you very much to Brett for sharing all of that with us today. If you like this episode too, can you give us five stars on Apple podcasts so that other swimmers can find us? Be so grateful if you could. Till next time, happy swimming and bye for now.