Kevin Callan Drops By Again!!

@TheHappyCamper drops by for another wonderful chat!
We get into his day job and his unique approach to teaching alternative learning students, how being out in nature has helped him manage his anxiety, and a kid's book coming down the pipe!

https://www.youtube.com/@UCyAVx1RB04N3CDMRPLeLiRg 

https://www.instagram.com/kchappycamper/

https://kevincallan.com/

https://www.facebook.com/thehappycamper

Transcript

00:00 - 00:03
Hello, and good day, Welcome to the Super Good Camping podcast. My name is Pamela.

00:03 - 00:04
I'm Tim.

00:04 - 00:04
And

00:04 - 00:08
we are from supergoodcamping.com. We are here because we're on a mission to inspire other families

00:08 - 00:11
to enjoy camping adventures such as we have with our kids.

00:11 - 00:13
Today, we have another returning guest.

00:13 - 00:19
He's 1 of the most recognizable faces of the Canadian outdoor adventure scene, particularly in the canoeing community.

00:19 - 00:22
He has written a WAC A Books. 18, I think.

00:22 - 00:24
Writes blogs for Explore Magazine and Paddling Magazine.

00:24 - 00:30
He is a prolific content creator on YouTube, has won multiple awards for his writing and filmmaking.

00:30 - 00:32
Please welcome again, Kevin Kellen.

00:32 - 00:33
Thank you.

00:33 - 00:36
Welcome back. Hey. That's you. Awesome.

00:36 - 00:38
So so great to have you back.

00:38 - 00:41
For the record, just just to let the audience know, we've had this conversation.

00:41 - 00:47
I suspect this will be different nonetheless, but but Zoom Zoom didn't work.

00:47 - 00:51
So we're we're redoing it, and and hopefully, it it plays out this time.

00:52 - 00:54
That's the story of my life.

00:57 - 01:03
Yours and mine, buddy. I would because you work with I don't know what the right term is.

01:03 - 01:07
Would disadvantaged youth be a reasonable title?

01:07 - 01:11
Well, we used to call them youth at risk, but we don't call them that now.

01:11 - 01:14
We call them alternative learning.

01:14 - 01:22
Okay. And 1 of the things that I know we've spoken about before is that by getting them outside

01:22 - 01:26
and into nature, it's generally a better thing for them.

01:26 - 01:29
It's or it has a relatively positive outcome.

01:29 - 01:31
Oh, definitely. Look, it's magical.

01:31 - 01:35
Really, as you have to actually see it, and people won't believe it.

01:35 - 01:41
For example so so I I've done a lot of things in my life with trouble juice, whatever. Sure.

01:41 - 01:43
Probably because I was 1 of them.

01:43 - 01:45
III did not do well in high school.

01:45 - 01:47
I did not do well in school itself.

01:48 - 01:51
I because I learned differently and once you figure that out.

01:51 - 01:57
So so yeah, I worked as guiding and outdoor camps and stuff, but, but for quite a while, I'm

01:57 - 02:03
a college, instructor part time instructor for 30, 4 years or something.

02:03 - 02:08
So over the last 20 years, I've actually instructed high school students a college course called

02:08 - 02:14
ecosystem management or skills and how to identify trees, birds, and stuff like that, just for job.

02:14 - 02:21
And if they they're not doing well in high school, so they're, they have bad attendance, They have some mental disabilities.

02:22 - 02:25
They have some maybe drug issues or past drug issues actually.

02:26 - 02:32
Then they go into the college and I teach them a college course while they're still finishing their high school.

02:32 - 02:34
So usually a little bit older.

02:34 - 02:37
They just haven't finished their high school yet for various reasons.

02:37 - 02:42
And then, if they pass my class, then they finish their high school and then go into post secondary

02:42 - 02:44
if they want or go to prison if they want

02:44 - 02:45
to. Right.

02:45 - 02:45
It's

02:45 - 02:46
a choice.

02:48 - 02:57
And for example, I'm I mean, I'm about 3 quarters way through the semester now and the average mark is 97%. That's awesome.

02:57 - 03:02
And they would if they're ready in high school right now, they would be flunking beyond belief.

03:02 - 03:05
So they they attend every single class. It's really rare.

03:05 - 03:07
Well, few of them had COVID last week.

03:10 - 03:13
But, yeah, they they they basically go because it's different. It's college.

03:13 - 03:14
So there's a meaning behind it.

03:14 - 03:18
I'm not saying there's no meaning behind high school, but when I was in high school, there was

03:18 - 03:19
no meaning in high school. You know, like, right?

03:19 - 03:24
But when I went into college or even whatever post secondary, you're doing to get a job and

03:24 - 03:28
make a career out of yourself. Right? You make money. So it works. It works.

03:28 - 03:30
But what really works is that they're outdoors.

03:30 - 03:31
They're not in the classroom.

03:31 - 03:35
So if I'm teaching them how to identify twigs, I'm not gonna sit in the lecture hall.

03:36 - 03:42
Good example is 1 of my coordinators, the new person questioned why my students were getting

03:42 - 03:46
so high marks thinking that maybe they were cheating or I was too easy of a instructor.

03:47 - 03:50
So I just said, well, come to my class and check us out.

03:50 - 03:52
So he came to the class, couldn't find me.

03:53 - 03:54
He goes, where were we?

03:54 - 03:54
I went to your class today.

03:54 - 04:01
I went, gosh, we weren't in class. We're outside all day. Yeah.

04:01 - 04:03
A good example, we did twig ID. Right?

04:04 - 04:06
So we look at a trembling aspen, bud.

04:07 - 04:12
The trembling, aspen's, lateral bud always is suppressed against this twig. Right?

04:12 - 04:14
And so that scientific term is that suppressed. Right?

04:14 - 04:16
So what what do I say to him? Okay.

04:16 - 04:18
The trembling aspen is trembling because it's afraid.

04:18 - 04:21
So it always hugs itself. Oh.

04:21 - 04:24
And, you know, the beach, twig.

04:24 - 04:26
Look at the beach twig. It's very slender.

04:27 - 04:28
It looks like it's rolled up.

04:28 - 04:30
So it looks like a joint.

04:31 - 04:34
Oh, wonder why they're getting 97%.

04:34 - 04:35
It's because you're connecting to them.

04:35 - 04:39
You're you're getting them to to learn, then feeling positive about themselves.

04:39 - 04:40
That's the biggest thing too.

04:40 - 04:44
I mean, right right now, I'm just showing them how to, memorize things.

04:44 - 04:49
I mean, later on in life, they're gonna have to really know all those scientific terms, but they're feeling confident.

04:49 - 04:51
They're not being harassed by the administration.

04:51 - 04:54
They're not being told that they're lonely lives. They're great.

04:54 - 04:58
They they feel good about themselves, and that's why they're coming to class every week because they're having fun.

04:58 - 05:06
So That's great. Well and so so that's a perfect sort of segue into give me share some of your

05:06 - 05:15
thoughts on on how being outdoors affects, because I'm sure that there are pros and cons, affects

05:15 - 05:18
affects the mental health of the person that's outdoors.

05:18 - 05:22
Well, mental health, it really affects them in a positive way because the number 1 is they're

05:23 - 05:25
they are who they are. There's no facade.

05:26 - 05:31
If you think back in even a high school, for example, even even at your job, if you have anxiety

05:31 - 05:38
issues and mental issues, you're faking your character to be on to become part of the normal pack. Right?

05:38 - 05:39
But you're not being your true self.

05:39 - 05:41
You're you're you're masquerading everything.

05:41 - 05:45
Well, we're out in the woods on the portage and the black flies are bad and everything else.

05:45 - 05:47
Your true character comes out whether you like it or not.

05:47 - 05:50
Like, sometimes you don't want that to happen, but but it's gonna come out. Right?

05:51 - 05:52
And, your true care comes comes out.

05:52 - 05:56
And when they see that after a few days, not a couple of days.

05:56 - 05:59
In fact, when I take them out the woods on a trip, it can't be for 1 night.

05:59 - 06:02
It's a big party for them for 1 night. There's gonna be trouble.

06:02 - 06:03
They're gonna try to escape.

06:03 - 06:07
They're gonna try and buy darts down the road, cigarettes. Yep.

06:08 - 06:13
But after a few days and they don't know where they are, and so therefore they won't escape

06:13 - 06:17
because they have to stick with me because if they they don't wanna get lost.

06:17 - 06:19
Then all of a sudden they realize, oh, it's kinda cool.

06:19 - 06:21
And they actually don't wanna go home.

06:21 - 06:24
And major reason why they don't wanna go home, which is really sad, is because that's where

06:25 - 06:26
most of the issues are, is at home.

06:26 - 06:28
So why would they wanna go home?

06:28 - 06:30
They're being their true selves out there.

06:31 - 06:34
They're feeling good and confident about themselves. They're challenging themselves. No.

06:34 - 06:37
They're not challenging nature because that would be stupid, but they're challenging themselves

06:37 - 06:39
and feeling good about it.

06:39 - 06:40
They're not getting that at home.

06:40 - 06:42
Well, I shouldn't say that. I shouldn't judge.

06:42 - 06:45
And that's the other thing. We never judge them. Right?

06:45 - 06:48
So there's a lot of things they've done wrong in the past. I'm just the instructor.

06:48 - 06:52
So there's a counselor with them and a high school teacher with them as well. Well. There's a counselor.

06:52 - 06:54
They all know what they've done wrong.

06:54 - 07:00
I don't wanna know because if I if I know, then sometimes you'll judge them and not wanna teach them. Right?

07:00 - 07:03
Yep. Yeah. I can see how that would play. You you would place

07:04 - 07:05
It'd Be prejudiced.

07:05 - 07:07
You'd be looking at them in a different light. Okay.

07:07 - 07:13
So, I know what it's like for me to to be somewhere where I I don't have a roof over my head

07:13 - 07:18
where I can I can hear the breeze in the trees, that sort of deal?

07:18 - 07:24
Does that does that play the same for everybody or just or do is I guess there could be anxiety

07:24 - 07:30
for for not having that roof over your head for, I don't know, not not feeling that. Go ahead. Go ahead.

07:30 - 07:35
They do at first. Well, even when we do I mean, we don't take them out on long trips all the time.

07:35 - 07:39
It's basically every day every week every week per day, I take them out.

07:39 - 07:42
And typical, they they don't wear the proper clothing.

07:43 - 07:46
They don't wanna go out. They're lazy. They're tired. They're late for class.

07:47 - 07:50
But the rule is and I don't say the rule is. I just said, okay.

07:50 - 07:52
If you wanna be here, you wanna be here.

07:52 - 07:55
If you don't wanna be here, just stay in high school the rest of your life then. You have a choice.

07:55 - 07:57
Either go to prison or you go with me. Right?

07:57 - 08:00
So so then we go out in the 1st couple of weeks.

08:00 - 08:01
They're like, Kevin, it's raining out.

08:01 - 08:02
I go, I told you.

08:03 - 08:05
I'm going out every single day no matter what the weather is.

08:05 - 08:07
And if you want to join me, you can join me. Okay?

08:08 - 08:11
So, ended up that they get used to it.

08:11 - 08:16
And the very first hour of of the, class is just a walk in the woods.

08:16 - 08:17
I don't teach them anything.

08:17 - 08:20
We just go for a walk in the woods for the first hour.

08:20 - 08:24
And if my bosses ever knew that because the regular Kirkland would be going to the lecture hall

08:24 - 08:26
and getting all the information possible.

08:26 - 08:29
I'm like, no, I just don't want him to do that.

08:29 - 08:33
Another good example is I had 1, student this semester, graph guy.

08:33 - 08:37
In fact, I had a trouble with him at first, but he he changed. He's doing really well.

08:37 - 08:40
Well, it depends on I mean, because they're on certain meds. Right?

08:40 - 08:43
So I have to make sure they're on their meds. And so anyway, blabbing.

08:43 - 08:49
But, he always is every third word would be the f word. Every third word. Right?

08:49 - 08:52
So the counselor and the high school teacher said, Hey, can you stop that?

08:52 - 08:54
And he goes, You can't stop me.

08:54 - 08:55
That's the way I talk.

08:56 - 08:59
And well, we're upset with that language you're using.

08:59 - 09:03
He goes, Well, then you leave them because I'm not changing my, the way I talk.

09:04 - 09:09
So I'm thinking, see this is why it doesn't work with him because some administrators telling

09:09 - 09:11
him do not do not.

09:11 - 09:15
So I went up to him and I said, hey, you know, what's my job?

09:15 - 09:17
What do you mean Kevin? What's my job?

09:17 - 09:18
Well, you're you're supposed to teach me.

09:18 - 09:20
Yeah, but at a college level.

09:20 - 09:24
So at a college level, I'm supposed to teach you how to get a good job.

09:24 - 09:28
Not just a job, a good job, a good life job.

09:28 - 09:33
And if you keep saying the f word every 3rd time, you're not gonna get a good job.

09:33 - 09:36
So as in your instructor, I'm telling you, stop saying the f word.

09:36 - 09:39
Well, that makes sense, Kevin. That makes sense. And there you go.

09:39 - 09:44
And while while while I'm saying that to him, we're walking in the woods for the hour.

09:44 - 09:49
So everything's I'm wasting my time walking woods with him for an hour. But really, am I?

09:49 - 09:52
I mean, you can't have that conversation in a in a closed in room.

09:52 - 09:55
How many things have how many problems have we ever solved sitting around the campfire?

09:56 - 10:05
Right. Yeah. Well, it doesn't doesn't that hour of of walking just put them in AAA more receptive place?

10:05 - 10:11
Like like, just puts III would certainly be, you know, you've you've your your your level, you

10:11 - 10:13
know, your BPM would come down.

10:13 - 10:19
You'd be I would find myself much more chill after an hour of of walking through the woods as

10:19 - 10:22
opposed to, you know, listening to traffic going by outside the window.

10:22 - 10:27
Yeah. And why do we like portaging and paddling across big windy lakes is because it's it's momentum.

10:27 - 10:30
So they know every week we're gonna go out for a walk.

10:30 - 10:37
And then we go back to the class and they teach them bird call ID or or, you know, leaf ID or

10:37 - 10:42
birds of prey ID in a in a PowerPoint because there's a lot of things I can't teach them outside all the time. Right?

10:42 - 10:45
And then what I do is we do the test right there.

10:45 - 10:46
We don't do the test next week.

10:46 - 10:52
We do the test right after I actually go over the material because it they have rumors it. Right?

10:52 - 10:57
And I always give them solid hints like, you know, yeah, we're doing mammal ID and there's an otter.

10:57 - 11:01
And they're all like, oh, I go, well, your otter know this 1, guys. The otter know it. Okay?

11:03 - 11:05
And they're like, oh, yeah. Yeah. I see otter.

11:05 - 11:10
And then, we go outside again to end the the the class and we do a bunch of activities.

11:11 - 11:16
And 1, for example, that I've been criticized because everybody's being too safe now, these

11:16 - 11:22
kids are living in a bubble and we are going to have some severe mental issues in the next 10,

11:22 - 11:24
I would say 5 years from now.

11:24 - 11:30
I think society is gonna crumble because the youth today are not allowed to go to nature.

11:30 - 11:31
We can go on and on about that.

11:31 - 11:33
We all know that's happening.

11:33 - 11:35
I mean, I can't do a stream study with them anymore.

11:35 - 11:40
We used to have to do a stream study with the life jackets on and they had their swimming test, which is fine, right? It's fine.

11:40 - 11:43
The Creek is only 2 inches deep, but that's fine.

11:43 - 11:48
But now I can't even go to the woodlot near the pond because we're gonna be near the pond.

11:48 - 11:50
So you're gonna be kidding me.

11:50 - 11:54
So, the 1 I do is, I have to teach wood density.

11:54 - 11:58
Like, what I need to look at a piece of wood, not a twig, but a piece of wood to identify what

11:58 - 11:59
kind of wood that is.

11:59 - 12:00
So before we put the fire. Right?

12:01 - 12:05
So I get 6 sticks those, different sticks those, whole bunch of different ones.

12:06 - 12:07
And then I get them in groups of 2.

12:08 - 12:10
I give them 3 matches, some water.

12:10 - 12:15
I said, okay, guys, light the sticks stove, get a fire going, put the pot over that, put the

12:15 - 12:18
water in there, boil the water, and then this spaghetti that you get, the spaghetti noodle,

12:18 - 12:20
everybody gets a spaghetti noodle.

12:20 - 12:25
The first 1 that actually gets a spaghetti noodle boiled up and soft enough to tie into a knot

12:25 - 12:30
wins 5 extra bonus points and plus this bag of candy. And they go nuts.

12:30 - 12:33
And so, you know, my the big boss would come up to you.

12:33 - 12:35
In fact, they came up 1 day.

12:35 - 12:36
You can't do this, Kevin. What are you doing?

12:36 - 12:39
You're supposed to teach them what density ID. I am.

12:40 - 12:43
Those guys aren't doing too well because they chose the wrong wood.

12:45 - 12:48
But after they do that, then I'll show them about wood density.

12:48 - 12:52
But if I went on in an usher hall for 2 hours about wood density, well, they wouldn't go.

12:52 - 12:54
And they'd have a nap. Yep. Yeah.

12:54 - 12:55
Well, they'd have a nap. Alright.

12:58 - 13:04
Well, and so that leads me to because because there's a I remember reading a thing about 1 of

13:04 - 13:11
the things about being outdoors in particular, if you're doing a camping trip is it helps you

13:11 - 13:16
with your problem solving skills because never nothing ever quite goes according to plan.

13:16 - 13:19
So you have to, you know, you have to jiggle whatever.

13:19 - 13:22
You have to figure out it's starting to rain. Okay.

13:22 - 13:23
So what how do we deal with this?

13:23 - 13:26
We we gotta have to set up. Well, okay.

13:26 - 13:28
So step back, go, you know what?

13:28 - 13:33
If I put the tarp up first then then I set my tent and stuff up, my tent and stuff will be dry

13:33 - 13:36
and the tarp is meant to to catch the water and stuff like that.

13:36 - 13:38
That kind of a deal. Right?

13:38 - 13:39
Yeah. It's all hands on too.

13:39 - 13:41
It's a group group dynamics is really important.

13:41 - 13:43
What are whatever you're doing. Right?

13:43 - 13:45
But especially on a canoe shoot.

13:45 - 13:48
But a couple of, activities I do, first of all, they they do tarp setup.

13:48 - 13:50
So I show them it's only 3 knots, not 8 knots.

13:50 - 13:52
You don't know nobody knows 8 knots.

13:52 - 13:53
Do you know 8 knots?

13:53 - 13:54
I do not.

13:54 - 13:56
I know 3 knots that work really well.

13:56 - 14:01
So I'll show them that the anglers knot, the truckers hitch, and the slipknot.

14:01 - 14:04
And then they'll know that. And I said, okay. Well, here's tarps.

14:04 - 14:06
The storm is coming from the northwest.

14:06 - 14:08
It's gonna arrive in 7 minutes.

14:08 - 14:11
Your group has 7 minutes to put that tarp up before the storm hits.

14:11 - 14:15
Remember the knots that tie you. Go. And anarchy.

14:15 - 14:18
But what I'm really doing is that I'm not showing them knots.

14:18 - 14:22
I'm showing how to how to work in groups, how to actually have a job and work with people.

14:23 - 14:27
Because when that happens, you're gonna get the the person, I know what I'm doing. Nobody else knows.

14:28 - 14:29
I'm I'm I'm more important.

14:29 - 14:34
Or you're gonna have the quiet, shy, person saying, you know, gosh, I don't know.

14:34 - 14:36
You're gonna have the introvert saying, well, I know how to put this tarp up.

14:36 - 14:38
I'm not gonna say anything until the very end.

14:38 - 14:41
So you have that all happening, but you don't tell them that.

14:41 - 14:45
And then, you know, the storm hits and you look at the tarps and then you just say, oh, by the

14:45 - 14:47
way, this is what I've done today.

14:47 - 14:51
The other is the, the egg launch, which is freaking awesome. I love this day.

14:51 - 14:57
So they, I bring a a barrel full of items and I put them in groups and I give them monopoly

14:57 - 14:59
money of $200 for each group.

14:59 - 15:04
I said, okay, I'm gonna auction off these items and we're gonna do something with an egg with

15:04 - 15:07
these items, but I'm not gonna tell you what yet.

15:07 - 15:14
So they start I I hold up a frying pan and someone will yell out, $50. 50 not even asking their

15:14 - 15:18
group if they should to take that. No.

15:18 - 15:20
Like, all their group is saying, what what are you doing? What are you doing?

15:20 - 15:24
And the the introverts are really inspired introverts will actually say, no, he's got something

15:24 - 15:28
up his sleeve, so let's hold back because why we spend all the money right away?

15:29 - 15:31
And it's amazing the group dynamics, right?

15:31 - 15:35
So what happens is they all have their items, whether it's a frying pan or it's oven mitts or

15:35 - 15:37
it's even the barrel that's actually cushion inside.

15:38 - 15:39
They didn't know because they didn't look.

15:40 - 15:44
And they said, okay, here's a marker, have a thrower, have a catcher.

15:44 - 15:49
You have to throw the egg and someone in your group has to catch the egg with an item that you bought.

15:49 - 15:53
And I keep moving the distance far apart, far apart, far apart.

15:53 - 15:58
And sometimes I'll put a hard boiled egg in there just to mess them up for a while. I have no life.

15:58 - 16:07
I just gotta but, you should see it because they'll say, see see we bought all our money for a frying pan.

16:07 - 16:10
And it's all about group dynamics in in real life.

16:11 - 16:13
But we're also outside all day doing that. So

16:13 - 16:14
Very cool.

16:14 - 16:17
Yeah. Problem solving and group dynamics. Cool.

16:17 - 16:23
Yeah. And and if you don't end up wearing an egg, I guess you would get a sense of accomplishment. I

16:24 - 16:26
love it when the egg hits them. I love it.

16:28 - 16:29
Yes, but you're a bad man.

16:30 - 16:31
Oh, man.

16:31 - 16:38
Do you find that, with the kids, they haven't they haven't had that opportunity to be out in

16:38 - 16:42
nature before and and now you're providing them with with something that

16:43 - 16:45
I've done both. So some do and some don't.

16:45 - 16:46
It all depends where I'm teaching.

16:46 - 16:49
So I I go to them some most of the time.

16:49 - 16:53
So I'll have a class in Halliburton, for example, which is just, 2 hours north of Toronto.

16:54 - 16:55
And majority of them live in the bush.

16:55 - 16:58
Like, they're they're all country folk. Right?

16:58 - 16:59
So they'll even know the species.

17:00 - 17:04
And I'll I'll go beyond that. Right? So, excites me.

17:05 - 17:10
At the same time though too, like, you know, they need a focus in life because it's a it's a small town. Right? Right.

17:10 - 17:13
So they love when I show up and and take them out for the day.

17:13 - 17:16
And so the parents, the parents think, what did you do today?

17:16 - 17:20
Kevin showed us all how to identify all the birds of prey. What? What?

17:20 - 17:22
I wish I had that when I was in school.

17:23 - 17:31
But then I also teach in Oshawa and Durham where, I love that because I'm, well, good thing.

17:31 - 17:34
I'm the only white person there, which I think is fantastic.

17:34 - 17:36
The multiculturalism around me is amazing.

17:36 - 17:37
I learned so much from them.

17:38 - 17:44
Also, they also learned from me because they have no Bush savvy whatsoever whatsoever.

17:44 - 17:49
And if they do, they're coming from a country that actually it's frowned upon living in a tent. Right.

17:49 - 17:53
So they come to Canada and they're like, no, my parents don't want to go camping.

17:53 - 17:54
It's like, no, it's different here.

17:54 - 18:00
So the, and they just soak it in like a sponge. I just love it. So, yeah.

18:00 - 18:09
So it's all buried and but what's all the same is they're all what I would call, misfit toys, right?

18:09 - 18:16
There's there there's students or people that never really belong to the normal crowd and feel

18:16 - 18:19
bad about that and struggle with that.

18:19 - 18:23
But when they're in the woods, I swear to God that doesn't happen.

18:23 - 18:25
Nature takes care of that.

18:25 - 18:26
I don't know what it is.

18:26 - 18:28
It's just mystical, magical thing.

18:28 - 18:32
I mean, that's what my whole book, Another Bend the River, the memoir I wrote was all about

18:32 - 18:37
me being high anxiety, still am, growing up and having terrible time in life to, to the point

18:37 - 18:42
of, you know, taking medication, dealing with suicide attempts and stuff like that, brutal stuff.

18:42 - 18:47
And the only time I actually calm myself down and really felt good about myself was I should go into nature.

18:47 - 18:53
So if you look at my career, that's what I did all my life is to find a job at any time I could

18:53 - 18:55
be to be outdoors so I can calm myself down.

18:56 - 18:59
Self therapy. Yeah. I can see I can see how that would work. I mean

18:59 - 19:01
When did anyone ever direct you that way?

19:01 - 19:03
Did they ever say, Kevin, you really should be working in nature?

19:03 - 19:07
Because that's that's gonna help you feel more relaxed or feel more calm.

19:08 - 19:10
Not directly. I know doctor ever said that.

19:10 - 19:12
But my dad knew that.

19:12 - 19:14
He was also a very hyper person too.

19:14 - 19:15
I mean, let's put it this way.

19:15 - 19:17
Rest of the family, I I'm the quiet 1.

19:17 - 19:21
I have 3 older sisters and at Christmas, I'm the calm and quiet 1. Okay? So

19:21 - 19:23
I cannot picture that.

19:24 - 19:26
You could never imagine. It would

19:26 - 19:26
be a blast though.

19:26 - 19:34
So but I think it was just, maybe because back in the day, we we we didn't we weren't told that.

19:34 - 19:38
But I did I did realize when I was out in the woods, I calm myself down.

19:38 - 19:43
A great story I've told you guys before, but I think it's good 1 to retell was my dad said you

19:43 - 19:46
need to go into some group and, you know, he tried baseball.

19:47 - 19:48
He he was a prize boxer too.

19:48 - 19:50
So he always was in the sports and I wasn't.

19:51 - 19:55
And I was a really quiet kid that didn't want to do with anything to anybody. Right?

19:56 - 19:58
I had a stuttering problem. I couldn't talk.

19:58 - 20:03
And and then so he put me into cubs and it got through cubs, but then he wanted me go into scouts.

20:04 - 20:05
And I just didn't wanna be there.

20:05 - 20:07
I had nothing to do with scouts whatsoever.

20:07 - 20:10
I helped scouts 100% all the time throughout my entire career.

20:10 - 20:12
I just didn't wanna be there.

20:12 - 20:17
And so when he dropped me off at the church, on the Sunday, late afternoon, I'd go and I had

20:17 - 20:23
a fishing rod and a can of worms hid behind the church, and I go to the local stream, which still exists in Milton.

20:23 - 20:25
Like, the stream is still there.

20:25 - 20:28
There it's a culvert made out of cement, but it's still there.

20:28 - 20:30
But I would go and catch brook trout.

20:30 - 20:36
And then I'd get back to the church just before he comes to pick me up, and every time he thought

20:36 - 20:38
I was there, and I never went into that building.

20:38 - 20:46
And then then 1 night he came home from work, he's saying, you gotta be at the scout campout this weekend. Like, what? What? What? Oh, yeah, dad. Oh, yeah.

20:46 - 20:52
The guys at work were telling all talking all about it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's right, dad. Sorry.

20:52 - 20:59
So we get in the car and he's driving up to, the escarpment, near Acton, actually, near the scout camp there.

20:59 - 21:02
And I had to tell him I went where there I went. I don't know.

21:02 - 21:05
I don't even know where this camp is. And he laughed. He giggled.

21:05 - 21:11
He goes, maybe you should spend more time fishing then. Right? So here's a classic.

21:11 - 21:12
It's about a few years ago.

21:12 - 21:14
I wish he was still alive to see this.

21:15 - 21:20
A few years ago, I was in a very busy schedule on a on a book tour, and I was speaking everywhere,

21:20 - 21:22
to the point that every single day I was somewhere. Right?

21:22 - 21:32
And the 1 day I was, at the scout leadership gathering, in near, near, where my hometown, right?

21:32 - 21:34
So I'm driving to it.

21:34 - 21:39
I'm like, oh man, this is the camp I was supposed to be at when I was a kid. Oh man.

21:40 - 21:42
And I looked at the what I was supposed to do.

21:42 - 21:43
I I don't really know why I'm here.

21:43 - 21:47
I'm supposed to be the keynote speaker of this leadership thing for and I just envisioned maybe

21:47 - 21:49
a bunch of scout kids, but they weren't.

21:49 - 21:54
It was all the scout leaders gathered around and there was a 1200 of them. Jeez. In a field.

21:54 - 22:01
And they they piped me in with bagpipes to be the keynote speaker to get them all, like, well, you can do this. Yeah.

22:02 - 22:10
And I went I go from I couldn't even be there to now I'm talking to all the leaders in a in a field with bagpipes. Kinda classic. That's

22:12 - 22:14
that is. So that'd be cool.

22:14 - 22:16
But Pamela's Pamela's a a scouter.

22:17 - 22:27
So it we we get to see lots of lots of stuff like that. Not not bagpipes. Not not yet anyhow. I'm curious.

22:27 - 22:29
Just just, it popped into my head.

22:29 - 22:32
So when I I assume it's a it's a school liability thing.

22:32 - 22:33
Stay away from the water.

22:34 - 22:37
We can't have any kids drowning or anything like that.

22:37 - 22:44
But if you're if you're on a if you're out camping with them, what is it is it hike only?

22:44 - 22:47
So you you don't do any canoeing or how does that all play out?

22:47 - 22:49
It all depends on the school board.

22:49 - 22:54
So Durham School Board, not many of them go canoeing anymore because of and no, water activities

22:55 - 23:00
inside the school, like my program, because of the drowning that happened a couple years ago

23:00 - 23:05
in a golf where the the the the teacher allowed the 1 boy to go without the swimming.

23:06 - 23:08
And there's all bunch of sides of that. Right?

23:08 - 23:10
I mean, once decided, I get it.

23:10 - 23:13
The court kid didn't pass, so therefore he let him go, but he drowned.

23:13 - 23:15
And now the guy who got manslaughter for it.

23:15 - 23:19
So so now all the principals and all the ministers saying, well, we don't want any water to these.

23:19 - 23:24
And then you get the school outdoor outdoor ed instructors that that spend their entire lives.

23:24 - 23:25
So you knew they're really good teachers.

23:25 - 23:27
They they don't just spend their time in the classroom.

23:27 - 23:29
They spend their lives taking these kids on a trip.

23:30 - 23:34
And then they're they're like, I've given I've given up the amount of stuff I have to do just to get them out.

23:34 - 23:37
Or there's other school boards that are 100% behind it.

23:37 - 23:39
So it all depends where what region you're in.

23:40 - 23:43
That's unfortunate. It's I I because I think it's a good thing.

23:43 - 23:46
And and you could do stuff like get them out fishing. Right?

23:47 - 23:51
Well, even in Halliburton, our fish ID class, we go out ice fishing. Oh, cool.

23:51 - 23:53
You could never do that at the.

23:53 - 23:58
Well, more, they would never even allow you to go near near the the water, let alone a frozen water on top.

23:58 - 24:00
But in Halliburton, have to do a fish ID this week.

24:00 - 24:02
Oh, let's go fishing, Kevin. Okay. Alright.

24:05 - 24:06
That's messed up.

24:06 - 24:12
And how much do you think the benefit is getting people generally away from the technology,

24:12 - 24:17
like, the constant, like, social media and and constant screen time?

24:17 - 24:20
Like, is that part of the benefits you think with getting people outdoors?

24:21 - 24:24
It is. I'm not against technology.

24:24 - 24:27
I mean, I use it for various reasons, even know, teaching, I use it.

24:27 - 24:30
So in fact, I I I'm so glad I still teach.

24:30 - 24:33
I'm gonna be 60 soon, and yet I still have to keep up with technology.

24:34 - 24:37
So what you guys did, you I was a new program just before the interview.

24:39 - 24:46
But I I, you know, I have to keep up with my technology to keep up with them or I'm just a, like, a cave person. Right?

24:46 - 24:52
So but we're, when we we go on trips, for example, backpacking trips where we can't go canoeing,

24:53 - 24:57
or even canoe trips, we choose routes where technology will not work.

24:57 - 24:59
Like, all the emergency devices, yes.

24:59 - 25:01
I remember on the 1 trip was great.

25:01 - 25:05
There was, the Blue Jays were gonna win, but we're on a 7 day, backpacking trip.

25:05 - 25:12
And the only way to find out who was winning the series is my sat phone. And they begged.

25:12 - 25:19
They begged Kevin, just 1 call. Just 1 call. Okay. We'll call someone. I went, okay. Okay. Look. I get it, guys. I get it. Call someone.

25:19 - 25:23
Choose who you're gonna call because you only got 2 minutes because this is a landline for safety,

25:23 - 25:26
not for who's winning on blue the series. Right?

25:26 - 25:31
So the 1 guy chose his mother and his mother who wasn't watching the game, so nobody even knew.

25:33 - 25:39
But, you know, I mean, but the answer to the question is I try to make sure that when we go

25:39 - 25:46
out there, their technology does not work because it's like weeding off a drug. It really is.

25:46 - 25:49
And you have to it takes a long time, to wean them off.

25:49 - 25:54
It takes me me a while when I go on trip to wean myself off it. So

25:54 - 25:56
Yeah. Well, I I can speak too.

25:56 - 26:02
So most of the time, we try to find places like way the heck back in Killarney or whatever where

26:02 - 26:08
there is no signal, but we went, we did a just a quick, like, a long weekend, not very long

26:08 - 26:10
ago in Kawartha Highlands, and I had a signal the whole time.

26:10 - 26:17
And sure enough, I found myself posting, you know, pictures of the of the fire onto my Instagram and stuff like that. It's like, oh, dude.

26:17 - 26:19
The whole point is to get away from that crap.

26:19 - 26:25
Yeah. Well, it's also a a catch way too because when I go out too, like, sometimes it's a job

26:25 - 26:30
through tourism that for me to promote my time out there. So I'll do that.

26:30 - 26:34
Where my buddy, Andy, is just there because he wants to go on the trip with me.

26:34 - 26:38
And at night, he'll go by the fire and get a tea going or a weed ram and I'm running around

26:38 - 26:40
trying to send all my signals.

26:40 - 26:42
And he's like, well, he's I hope you're getting paid.

26:45 - 26:47
That could be why we love Andy.

26:47 - 26:48
So what's coming up for you, Kevin?

26:49 - 26:55
You know what? I'll show you you'll be the 1st to see this. I'm working with, Cliff.

26:55 - 27:00
He's, I'm writing a kid's book on high anxiety.

27:00 - 27:01
A kid going out, you know, doors.

27:01 - 27:05
And I told Cliff I wouldn't talk about this on the media, but we just had a meeting, just an

27:05 - 27:08
hour ago about about what's going on.

27:08 - 27:10
I just gotta show you, how good this guy is.

27:11 - 27:14
It's Cliff. It's Jacobsen. Is that who we're talking about?

27:15 - 27:17
No. It's not Cliff Jackson. It's not Cliff.

27:17 - 27:24
So the character book, what happens is this kid goes out on on a cruise ship with his uncle,

27:24 - 27:28
and he does not wanna be there. He's high anxiety. He's got the hoodie.

27:28 - 27:31
He feels that it's dangerous out there.

27:31 - 27:33
It's it's more cozy at home.

27:33 - 27:38
And the uncle is a bumbling idiot and says, you know, you'll be fine. You'll be fine.

27:38 - 27:40
You'll find your true self.

27:40 - 27:46
And then they go out and instead of, why I love love how working with with this guy, Cliff,

27:47 - 27:56
is that instead of the uncle being the dominant person saying, this is how you do it, it's the animals in the background. They're teaching the lessons.

27:57 - 28:01
And I'm not gonna say anything more than that because I want it to be a big surprise when this

28:01 - 28:07
book comes out, but let's just say it has a good ending. Cool. And, yeah.

28:07 - 28:11
So, I and I I just it was so much fun to write something on about that. It's so funny.

28:11 - 28:18
I mean, the characters, like, there's a scene where we have to, you know, tell kids how to poop in the woods. Wait for that chapter.

28:21 - 28:22
That's gonna go viral for sure.

28:25 - 28:28
That's excellent. That's excellent. Well, that must be that must be a very different experience

28:28 - 28:31
from from what you're you're used to writing.

28:31 - 28:37
I mean, writing is writing but but you're yeah, I could see where that would be a whole bunch of fun.

28:37 - 28:42
Well, the the big thing that's happening right now is, like, see, there's a lot of people that

28:42 - 28:43
they they know me as a happy camper.

28:43 - 28:47
They know I'm a canoeist, and they know I write guidebooks, and they wrote I've written a a bunch of books.

28:47 - 28:50
But they don't know about what I teach.

28:50 - 28:54
Because again, I've been only a part time instructor for 3 something years, not a full time.

28:54 - 28:58
I mean, for financial reasons, that's the most stupidest thing I've ever done in my life.

28:58 - 29:02
But I I was able to do all the other things because I was part time instructor.

29:02 - 29:09
So 2 reasons I taught, 1 is I I love teaching and making a change, but also is that I was I

29:09 - 29:12
was able to do all other things. Right?

29:12 - 29:16
But my students at the college and even a lot of my colleagues have no clue what I do outside

29:16 - 29:18
of the college, the the happy camper. Right?

29:18 - 29:21
There there's no reason why they would. Right?

29:21 - 29:27
Except halfway through the semester, someone would find someone's parent that would find a Gary

29:27 - 29:37
the puppet video and say, my dad said you're the happy camper. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I do that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

29:37 - 29:42
Let's get to your lessons, everybody. No. We wanna see Gary. Gary the puppet.

29:44 - 29:47
And, you know, so it it does cross over.

29:47 - 29:52
I mean, there's times why why do Gary the puppet is because it's a way to the person that actually

29:52 - 29:55
is doing those stupid things would watch Gary.

29:55 - 29:58
Whereas if we did what the government wanted me to do, it'd be so boring.

29:58 - 29:59
We would all watch it.

29:59 - 30:03
Well, we'd feel obligated to watch it, but we wouldn't learn anything from it.

30:03 - 30:05
But but Gary Gary's away.

30:05 - 30:08
I mean, my my students at risk love that guy.

30:08 - 30:11
They went with, you know, he's like, oh my goodness. That's just weird. Yep.

30:12 - 30:18
So to write a kid's book now and talk about anxiety and also my memoir talking about anxiety

30:18 - 30:23
and also show what I've done in my career was not that easy because I always liked that wall.

30:24 - 30:25
I always liked that wall. So

30:25 - 30:29
Yep. Yeah. I can see how that would be be a thing. I have

30:29 - 30:35
a, just a question about, when you do take the kids out for a longer excursion, do you do you

30:35 - 30:40
notice a change in the dynamics between them at like, as, like initially everybody's kind of

30:40 - 30:44
awkward and doesn't know what to do and and then as they're progressing through that they're

30:44 - 30:48
becoming more of a team or more socially the interaction has changed?

30:48 - 30:51
Yeah. They they changed dramatically after that.

30:51 - 30:52
The reason why is they have to.

30:52 - 30:55
They're they're they can't escape their environment. They're on a trip. Right?

30:55 - 31:02
So if you don't like the the 1 person at at a regular school setting, it's a mob mentality.

31:02 - 31:04
It's a lure of the flies mentality. Right?

31:04 - 31:08
But on a trip, you have to actually get along, to finish it through.

31:08 - 31:11
And then when you do finally and I'm talking about a long trip.

31:11 - 31:13
Not again, not an overnight trip.

31:14 - 31:17
You would bond whether you dislike those people or not, you bond.

31:17 - 31:21
And then when you go back to the classroom, you have that bond. Right?

31:22 - 31:25
It impacted it's more important for them to do the trip earlier.

31:25 - 31:30
So then the rest of the semester, I have them bonded, and getting along and dealing with conflict

31:30 - 31:32
because they have to deal with conflict out there.

31:33 - 31:38
The the the 90% part of the trip is dealing with the people you're with even when you're on a solo trip.

31:41 - 31:42
Wait a

31:45 - 31:50
minute. The voices. The voices. A quick note.

31:50 - 31:54
You guys are are only a couple of days apart, age wise.

31:54 - 31:55
I'm turning 60. We're

31:55 - 31:59
both 60. 28th, I think. Right?

31:59 - 32:01
Oh, so you're Sagittarius? Yes.

32:01 - 32:03
25th. Yeah. Yeah.

32:04 - 32:06
There you go. We're better people than everybody else, I'll tell

32:06 - 32:07
you. Yeah.

32:09 - 32:13
Since I'm sitting here within reach, I'm gonna say, yes, you are.

32:16 - 32:20
I think that covers it for me. That was great. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

32:20 - 32:21
That's it for us for today.

32:21 - 32:26
Thank you so much to our special guest, Kevin Callan, and check him out on all the social media.

32:26 - 32:32
He is Casey happy camper on YouTube, and I'm sure he would love it if he subscribed to his YouTube channel.

32:32 - 32:34
And otherwise, check out us.

32:34 - 32:40
We are on YouTube as well, and you'll find us at supergoodcampingdot com, and you can email

32:40 - 32:43
us anytime you like at hi at SuperGoodCamping.com.

32:43 - 32:47
That's hi at SuperGoodCamping.com, and others will see you on all the social media.

32:47 - 32:49
And we'll talk to you again soon. Bye.

32:49 - 32:49
Bye.