Marion born 1917 with one good eye and one bad eye

Marion became blind at age 60 after a life of having one good eye and one bad eye. She was independent cane traveler before, but the methods of teaching her orientation and mobility at 60 left her in tears and a belief that it was her fault that she was no longer able to be independent when walking outside on her own. 
Marion tells us about a serious injury resulting from walking without her long cane. She discusses the ingenious work arounds she and Frank used to access the print signage in their apartment buildings. And so what they enjoy about the VISIONS Camp for the Blind and so much more!

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Transcript

  Marion  6/16/01

this month we have the spouses of Frank and George. Then we’ll move on to the interviews with men and women born between 1933 and 1945 – so after the dog guide was brought to the US and before the long cane was invented.

So we begin with Marion, born in 1917 she was Frank’s second wife. Marion grew up with a good eye and a bad eye due to Acute myopia and angle closure glaucoma.

Where do you live?

Brooklyn, New York, 

Q. Where were you born?

A. I was born in Manhattan, New York City.

Q.   Uh, so, are you retired?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And what are you retired from?

A. Well, my last job was, uh, transcription typing, Dictaphone work.  I learned that because I had lost all of my good vision.  I had very bad vision left in one eye.  The other eye, which was the good eye, I lost all the vision and lost the eye.  They had to the acute glaucoma struck me in 1954 and four years later, after having an operation and treatment, I had the eye removed.  It deteriorated completely.  And they I was left with the bad eye.  I had to learn that..

Q. Hm.

A. And, uh, I got secondary glaucoma in that.  And, uh, in 1987, that deteriorated so badly that I had to have that removed.  And I have two plastic prostheses.

Q. Hm.

A. And I learned, uh, to, um, travel around this neighborhood when I first moved out here in 1980.  But I’m no good on the street.  I can’t do it.  I have a very…no sense of direction.  I think I’m walking straight and, instead of that, I veer to the right and I wind up in the street with the cars.

Q. Oh.

A. So, I have to have somebody with me when I go out.

Q. OK.

A. And, if I don’t, then I use car service and they…   We always use the same one and the driver will always help me into the car and out of the car to wherever I’m going.

Q. Yes.

A. And, let’s see, what else?  I, I learned, as I say, Dictaphone at the Lighthouse because I always worked in an office.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And, during the war, I had to…I was a timekeeper and for a whole year, I had to work a slide ruler, figuring the bonus for people who worked on the bench.  We made the radios for the Army and Navy and it was in a location on 34th Street and Tenth Avenue which was very convenient.  And I lived up in Yonkers at that time and, um…

Q. Did you ever have any difficulty traveling then?

A. Not then, no, not…  No.

Q. Did you…

A. At that time I was able to manage traveling.  I, um, learned to travel with a cane and, um…

Q. When was that?

A. That was in, um, ’56 or ’57, I started…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …getting mobility because this eye that I was left with was very poor.

Q. Yeah.  What was your vision?

A. It was uh, very nearsighted.  Very, very…  So, I had to learn Dictaphone.  I couldn’t read at a distance any longer.

Q. Yeah.

A. I had everything on my nose.

Q. So, how did you find out about the Lighthouse?

A. Oh, I knew about it from years ago.  I always knew blind people and, um, we used to go there…I used to guide a girl…I used to work…my very first job was in the Botanical Gardens in the Bronx…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …and I worked where we poisoned plants brought in by the doctors.

Q. Oh.

A. And, um, we would file them away alphabetically and I hated to sit so I always volunteered to climb this very high ladder and file them all according to the name of the doctor alphabetically, and, uh, put them up in great big boxes.  I climbed up there.  But we would poison them first and they would have to dry out over night so that insects wouldn’t get at them.

Q. Right.

A. And, then, after that, I learned, I got the job with the factory doing timekeeping.  And that’s where I had to use a slide ruler, which was very stressful, very much a strain on me.  I used to go home with very sick headaches, throw up, what not.  Any way…

Q. Oh, gosh.

A. …and I, uh, went from, uh, war work, uh, I went into Mac Trucks in the Empire State Building and I worked there for about five years in the sales department and that was working IBM machines, uh, all the machines…  The, uh, keypunch, the interpreter, the printer, and the collator.

Q. When was that?  In the ‘50s?

A. Pardon.

Q. That was in the ‘50s?

A. Yeah, from ’51, I think, to ’54.  And that’s when I was stricken with this bad acute glaucoma and I lost my good eye.

Q. Yeah.

A. So, them, from…  For two years, three…about three years, I was a mess.  I lost weight and I was discouraged…

Q. Yeah.

A. …anyway, I went and I trained at the Lighthouse.  They had, uh…

Q. What’d they teach you besides the Dictaphone?  I mean, did… What, what was the O&M like?

A. _______________ Braille writer, also.

Q. Yeah.

A. Yeah.

Q. And what about the orientation and mobility?  Did you have training then?

A. Yeah, I had to have it then.

Q. And what did…  What was the method used to teach you?

A. Oh, with me, they told me to use the cane, um, to free… You would put your cane, for instance, on the…the left in front of your left foot and then you’d walk forward…you’d be walking forward with the right.  When you put the cane in front of the right foot, you’d walk forward with the left.  That was to clear your steps in case there was anything in your way.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And that’s the way I do it.  But Frank doesn’t.  He just swings his…or pounds it one way…

Q. [laugh]

A. …I have to feel it.  I have to scrape my cane so that I feel all the uneven sidewalks or whatever.

Q. So…

A. Sometimes I stand up because of tree roots…

Q. Oh.

A. Yeah.  I…  And then I measure when I go up and down a curb or steps.  I put the cane from the top of the step down.  Then I know how high it is and how far I have to step.  It gives me an idea of the height.

Q. So, you say you have, now, um…  You won’t go by yourself ‘cause you don’t walk a straight line.  Was that always…was that back in ’56, too?

A. In fact, then I was all right because I still had this little bit of vision.

Q. Yeah.

A. It made a big difference.

Q. And so, you…  How would you use the vision?

A. Well, to be able to see where I was going.

Q. Yes.

A. And, uh, I could do pretty good, even though it was bad…

Q. Yes.  What kinds of things would you use   ?

A. I used a folding cane.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And when I get where I was…am, I fold it up and hang it on a side of a chair or something if I’m in a restaurant or wherever.  And, um, I did that…the Dictaphone work for about five years for eight men in an office.  They did the lighting in the theaters…all the New York City theaters.   80% of them.

Q. I wonder, um, how long did you get that O&M instruction for?  Was that for, like, a week, or…

A. Um, no, it would be…let me think…oh, at least a month…at least a month.

Q. Was it every day?

A. Every day.

Q. Uh huh. For an hour or so?

A. Yeah.

Q. And where would you go with the O&M instructor?

A. On the street.  We would…I would work down on, uh, like…  The Lighthouse was 59th Street…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …and I would walk from 59th down to 57th and then, uh, the teacher would get behind me and then she would see how I would do when I got to a curb, wanting to cross a street, and, um, I would either ask or listen for the traffic and try going by myself.  But I didn’t do that very much.  I was too nervous.

Q. You didn’t like it.

A. No.  So, uh, I’d always stand there and ask someone to cross, or someone would come up and say, do you want to cross?  ‘Cause they see a lot of blind people in the ‘50s.

Q. Yeah.

A. And, um, so, that’s the way I did it.  And then, when I tried doing it alone when I moved out here, ‘cause I quit when I couldn’t travel any more, I quit the job the Century Lighting Company…

Q. Yes.

A. …and that was back in ’63.  So, out here, I tried it a couple of times, but, even though I had training again from the now Helen Keller Agency…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …I still couldn’t do it.  But I learned, uh, to walk around the block with my husband and I could, uh…  And I learned the inside of the building ‘cause we have two buildings…and east and west building…all seniors…and we have a…  Now, we have a nice glass enclosure…a breezeway that takes you from one building to the other.

Q. Nice.

A. When I moved here, we had to walk out in the open.

Q. Oh.

A. But, uh, and, then, in the center, we have a community building and on Friday nights they have socials and sometimes we go down with a friend of ours and, um…  I also joined a…  Seniors in Touch, it’s called, and they bring people who are also disabled and cannot get out from other apartments or houses and they bring them in here to, uh, Shore Hill Housing…  And I joined that group.

Q. Oh, that’s nice.

A. Yeah.  And, uh…

Q. I wondered is, if you ever thought about how that makes you feel about the change in your travel.  Um…

A. Oh, it’s terrible.

Q. Yeah.

A. So, um, you know, I’m not independent anymore.  I have to depend on someone.

Q. How do you think the training maybe could have been different…or could it have been?

A. Uh, I don’t think so.  That’s the way they train everybody.

Q. Well, that’s true, but maybe you have some ideas on if they had done this a little differently, it would have been better just for me, as a person, because that’s usually…

A. I can’t think of anything.

Q. OK.

A. I’m just so nervous when I go out.

Q. So, you mean…

A. Emotionally, I’m very upset.

Q. Yes.

A. Even if I’m with someone.  When I come back after a day out, the next day I’m good for nothing.

Q. Yes.

A. I’m just exhausted.  And at the time, I don’t feel that bad when I’m with someone.

Q. Yes.

A. Or if I go alone to a doctor’s office, even if it’s with car service.

Q. Right.

A. …but I just can’t overcome it.

Q. Right.

A. For 20 years [laugh]

Q. So, did you discuss those feelings with your O&M instructor?  How that made you feel?

A. Oh, yeah.  They couldn’t come up with anything.

Q. They couldn’t come up with anything.

A. The first time they tried me out here, I stood on the street and cried.

Q. Oh, gosh.

A. Yeah. No. I just can’t get with it.  I’m all right now. I can do anything in the house.  I clean. I cook…

Q.  Well, it sounds like they…

A. …_______ everything.

Q. It sounds like they were a little insensitive if they put you in a place where you were crying.

A. Well, I think I embarrassed her  [laugh]

Q. Oh.

A. [laugh]

Q. She was embarrassed.

A. Yeah.

Q. She should have been.

A. Yeah.

Q. …making you cry.

A. Well, she didn’t make me.  It’s the way I just felt.  That this was, you know, hopeless and…  I don’t know…  I just can’t adjust to…

Q. Had you practiced in quieter places first?

A. No.

Q. It was just right out into…

A. Right out on the street.

Q. Right out on the busy street…first try.

A. place um hm.

Q. Wow.  Well, that would have taken anybody’s breath away, I think.

A. Well, that's the way they do it…

Q. No, not me.

A. …travel to go to work.

Q. Not me.  I, I take people to quiet places to just get used to the idea first.  Do you think that would have been helpful?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Don’t know.

A. No, don’t know.

A. I just know I’m awful at it.

Q. [laugh]  But I feel bad that you think it’s your fault, when sometimes there’s other reasons, too. Uh…

A. Well, I’m content as long as I can take care of myself in the house and, you know, cook and clean and do things in a normal fashion…

Q. Yeah.

A. …And I can go down to the laundry in the building.  We have a…and we have a little store in the east building which is a commissary.  We will never starve if we can’t get out…if the weather is bad. So we have that.

Q. What kinds of landmarks do you use to get around inside?

A. Well, we have rails on the walls, which help, and, uh, when I get in the elevator, we have an elevator…two elevators and we have them so that…  They’re new and when they were putting them in, I asked the administrator to please have a voice announce the floors, as long as they were putting in new elevators.  Some of the people said, oh, we don’t need that.  There’s a big number on the wall across from the elevator.

Q. Oh.

A. I said, well, not everybody can see that number.  So, I asked the administrator…there was a tenants’ meeting, everybody was down there…so, she said, that’s a good idea and they did it.  But when we moved here, they wouldn’t do anything to help us to find our floor.  Uh, in fact, we went to the eighth floor…we were on the seventh floor…and we went up to the apartment over me and we’re trying to get into that apartment.  So, what we did ourselves, we put a Braille sign above the lock on our door saying 7R.

Q. Nice.

A. And then Frank, one night…  We used to have big ice…uh, ashtrays out in the hall between the elevators.  They’re no long there.  But, when they were, we, uh…he went one night and Brailled every floor.  He stuck this, uh, Dymo tape with the Braille number…

Q. Ah.

A. behind this ashtray…on the ashtray because we tried putting it up on the wall outside the elevator…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …but people would remove it.

Q. Oh.

A. So, uh, we did that.

Q. So, you hid it on the ashtray?

A. Yeah.

Q. Very cool.

A. There was a space between the wall and it.  So, he did that and then we told the administrator and she said, well, that was all right.  But they wouldn’t put a large raised number up there.  And now they have them.  They have them raised and they have them in Braille.

Q. Nice.  Finally, huh.

A. Yeah.  And the buttons in the elevator I don’t like.

Q. Why.

A. cause it's flat.

Q. Yeah.

A. Everything has to be to look nice, you know.

Q. Right.

A. So, uh, I have to count across…we have three, three, uh, buttons…big buttons across.  They’re flat, uh, recessed, you know.  Not recessed, but just flat. See, I count from the left, one, two and then I go down, one, two, and in the middle there is my floor, seven.  That’s how I find it.

Q. Neat.

A. And then when I go to the laundry, I…  On the left side, I go from one down to the bottom.   There’s five buttons and that’s lower level to go to the laundry or just throw garbage away.

Q. Nice.

A. Yeah.  So, that’s how I do that.  

ME: This inability to know what the room number or floor number is a real problem. The bigger problem is that before Americans with Disabilities act (ADA) there was no incentive and seemingly braille was seen as in poor decorative taste – their clandestine way of adding Braille to the back of an ashtray just so they could have the same ease of knowing what floor they were on, or slyly putting it near the keyhole to what door they were about to enter- is wonderfully inventive -but consider that in every other building they went into in NYC – and the city is all high rises- they had no independent means of selecting the correct floor on the elevator panel or confirming their location. Until the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) mandated there be equal access to public spaces. And even now you can find missing braille, altered braille, people like to vandalize the braille dots and that really needs to stop because those allow people who are blind to know information that is vital to all of us. What floor am I pushing? What button is this? Is this the emergency exit?

What boggles my mind is how many elevators don’t even give all of the information. That apparently there are just these floors for people who are blind. Or they don’t tell you this is the open/close or the emergency button. 

There is just a real variety in the signage at large so that one symbol might mean emergency and another symbol used in another building on another elevator also means emergency. And so not having uniformity in raised symbols so they are easy to identify, easy to identify with your finger. There’s no uniformity in how raised they need to be. There, all these things are written in the law, but there is a real variety when you go into buildings that are built at all different decades.  And so retrofitting versus a new building they have various ways to make it accessible. So it’s tough and it makes it harder. And yes, you can always ask someone, but there is not always someone to ask. And sometimes you just want to do it by yourself. So, there’s nothing wrong with that.

And once you get off the elevator, you need to know what floor you’re on, you need to to know the room number of the office or the name of the office that you’re entering. 

To be accessible signage needs to be at a height that people can touch, on the side of the door that is opening and includes braille, high contrast print. Even when using a smart phone app, signs that are way above the height of the door are not accessible and when on the door are more likely to cause a disturbance when being read and someone needs to open the door.

And…what else can I tell you?   

Q. How many different types of mobility tools have you tried?

A. Just a cane.

Q. Uh huh.  And you used…

A. What else?

Q. Well, there’s the dog, there’s electronic travel, uh, aids…

A. Oh, you mean the cane with the noise making on it?

Q. Yeah.

A. Eighteen hundred dollars.

Q. Oh.

A. Oh, nothing is cheap in Braille.  Nothing.

Q. Right.

A. You have to pay…I have to get labels to mark the clothing…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …so that I know what color.  I have to pay twenty-five dollars for a hundred metal tags.

Q. That’s…

A. A lot of them you don’t even use.

Q., That’s very…

A. If they’d sell you what you really use, it would make more sense.

Q. Which ones don’t you use?

A. I don’t use orange, uh, let’s see what else…  Uh…

Q. What could you say…that orange is another color that you do use?

A. No, I don’t use it.

Q. Like, if you say…

A. I don’t buy any clothing that’s orange.

Q. Right, but you could say, well, even though it says orange, I need it to be black.

A. Oh, oh, well, we get black, brown, green, gray…uh, pink, purple.  And we get white.

Q. Which one do you run out of?

A. The blues and the grays and the pinks.

Q. So, there you go.  Now you could say that orange means pink.

A. [laugh]

Q. [laugh]

Q. [laugh]

A. I’d have to remember.

Q. Yeah.  Well, that’s a little hard.  [laugh]

A. and, uh, let’s see what else.  Uh, I also order from an organization the, um, this labeling tape that I use.  It has a magnetic back on it and I have to Braille it, like, for, uh…  I don’t use cans, so much…it’s jars.  Like, uh, Aunt Millie’s tomato sauce, and I’ll just put TS on that, cause I recognize the bottle.  And then I have, um, box stuff I have to label.

Q. Neat.

A. Cereals…  Cream of Wheat we cook…I cook and, uh, oatmeal.

Q. I wonder, um, how many canes do you own?

A. I have two, just in case one really goes, but, you can always buy tips.

Q. What…

A. ______ call the organization and order a tip.

Q. So, what kind of folding cane do you have?

A. Uh, I, I can’t…  [aside]  I can’t think of the name. (to Frank) "Frank do you know the names of the canes we use? (to interviewer) I can't think of the name.

Q. Is it the same type as Frank’s?

A. Yeah.  [aside to Frank]  Can you tell me the name of the canes we use? Is it Milar or something [Frank in background it’s a Moller] Mollar. Oh no? It used to be Mollar, I don't know what it is now.  Aren’t these aluminum?  No?  They’re metal.  I don't know. I don't know it’s strong, any way.

Q. Strong.

A. It’s collapsible.  It has rubber running from the top to the bottom.  Elastic…it stretches so that you can fold it in…  It has four sections.  You fold it up into one, two, three…three sections that you fold.  [laugh]  He says, if you drink, you don’t lean on it.

Q. [laugh]  And I wonder, what kind of tip is at the bottom?

A. Uh.  [aside to Frank]  What's the name of the tip?

Q. Is it…

A. You screw 'em up into the bottom part.

Q. Is it metal?

A. Um, no, it’s some other, more durable…

Q. Like, a Teflon or nylon?

A. Yeah.

Q. Plastic…

A. Nylon, I think.

Q. Yeah

A. Yeah.  And, they have some that roll.  I don’t think I’d like one that rolls.

Q. Why not?

A. I don’t know.  I might fall.

Q. Yeah.

A. I don’t think I’d like that.  I’ve had enough falls.  When I was losing my vision, I walked off somebody’s terrace…fractured my hip and my shoulder.

Q. Oh, my goodness.

A. I couldn’t see level.  Everything looked…  I mean, I couldn’t see depth.  Everything was level.

Q. Right.

A. Even when I’d pour any coffee or tea in a cup, it looked level.  Now I have what is called a liquid leveler.  I put it on the rim of the cup or the mug and when I pour, it buzzes and I stop.

Q. Nice.

A. You don’t have to put your finger in there anymore.

Q. Right, right.  That’s nice.

A. Yeah.

Q. So, um, you weren’t using a cane when you fell off the terrace.

A. No.

Q. No.

A. Visiting.  And I got up off the chair and I said, I’m going to take a walk and I…  We hadn't gone for a walk the day before and I thought the road was level with the terrace and I stepped off and it wasn’t there.

Q. Oh, gosh.

A. It was about five feet high.

Q. Oh, my.

A. Yeah, and I landed on my right side.

Q. Oh.

A. Yeah, the poor people…I scared them.  So I was up in Massachusetts for five weeks and had beautiful, beautiful treatment.

Q. Yeah.

A. Yeah.  The hospital was great.  They washed my hair every week, they set it.  I had therapy.  I came out walking.

Q. Nice.

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you get a cane after that?

A. No, I always had the cane, but I didn’t have it out on the lawn with me.

Q. Oh, that’s all.

A. Yeah.

Q. Wow.

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you make any change in…afterwards?  Vow never to be without it, or…

A. Oh,  I…  Oh, yeah, I never go out without it.

Q. Now.

A. And, even the apartment out here I use it because I don’t want to knock any old person down.

Q. Yeah.

A. They know they're in front of me. They stand in any old place, you know.

Q. Right.

A. So, rather than bump into them, I use the cane.  And they always say, watch it, watch it.

Q. [laugh]

A. What should I watch?  You watch.

Q. [laugh]

A. [laugh]

ME: The injuries of walking with a mobility visual impairment can be serious – she was in the hospital for five weeks after fracturing her hip and shoulder because she trusted what she saw ahead of her. That is the power of vision – and that is also the difficulty of impaired vision on the brain.

As she stated, she had walked on the terrace the day before. And she did not remember that there was a step down to get to the road.

Right? The brain doesn’t constantly warn you – “by the way” you don’t realize this but your head towards a 6 foot drop. No it doesn’t. So that’s why people who are blind ro mobility visually impaired need a mobility tool everyday all day. Truly the reason we wear seat belts every time we’re in a car. Because accidents happen, you don’t plan to have an accident.

Q. Have you ever been lost?

A. Lost.  Yeah [laugh]

Q. [laugh]  

A. Yeah, one time, we got to this camp up in, um, Spring Valley…and it’s for the blind, it’s Vision runs it.

Q. Yes.

A. Frank mentioned before.  And, uh, it’s a great place.  And it’s for adults, blind adults.  And, uh, one time, I was coming out of the library and there’s a space between…  We have rails there, you don’t even need your cane there, you follow these rails, it takes you to all buildings, and turning here or there, whatever, wherever you want to go.  You get to know the route.

Q. Yeah.

A. And, uh, there’s a space…  You leave the rail and then you walk in front of the steps up the ramp of the library and then you are supposed to get the other rail on the other side…  But there’s a big space somehow there and I wound up in there and it’s all grass and trees and I couldn’t find my way out.  [laugh]

Q. Oh.

A. It wasn’t far from, uh, the dorm where we stayed and I kept yelling for this fellow that’s…one of the men there when it was about four couples are in this dorm and, uh, he had to come and get me out of there.  I kept turning around and yelling and using the cane and I got nowhere.  [laugh]

Q. Oh.

A. He came and got me out.

Q. Very good.

A. Yeah, so, other than that, what?

Q. OK.  Um, so I think you sort of told me, but I just wanted to…  How do you feel about traveling alone to unfamiliar places?  Is  you hate it, is that right?

A. Yeah.

Q. And, um…

A. Because I can’t do it.

Q. Don’t do it, can’t do it.  You feel that you can’t

A. That’s why I don’t like it.  _______________

Q. How would…  What strategies would you give for using the car service?

A. Well, what we do, we try to use the same car service.

Q. Uh huh.

A. We get to know the men and we always tell the, the, uh, starter, I call him, the man at the desk, uh, that we’re blind and we need help.

Q. Yeah.

A. And he gives this information to the driver.   And the driver would get out and take us into the car, he opens the door and gets us in the car and when we get to where we’re going, he’ll take us out and walk us to the door of the building.  And then when we call for him when we’re going home from, say, a doctor’s office, we ask them when they call to ask the driver to come in, ‘cause the girls are usually too busy to spend time taking us in and out.

Q. Yeah.

A. So, he’ll do that.  And we tip him.

Q. Yeah.

A. And, uh, they’re very…very nice.  Very willing.  And, uh, that’s the way we work it.  And we always ask, when he comes, if he doesn’t say it himself, what car service is it.

Q. OK.

A. We don’t want to get in the wrong car.

Q. Right.

A. And then, sometimes, they’ll know where we’re going and they’ll call that out, too, you know, as he comes.  He’ll say, are you going to such and such a place and we say, yes.  But, uh, otherwise, we don’t go, you know, until we know exactly that it’s the right car we called for.

Q. I wonder, um, what about getting back?  Do you make arrangements ahead of time for them to come back?

A. No, because if you go to a doctor’s office, you never know when you’re getting out.  So the girls will call from the doctor’s office…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …and then they’ll…the car service will tell them ten minutes, 15 minutes or whatever or right away, you know and then, uh, the drivers know us, so they come in and get us.

Q. Nice.

A. Very nice. Now, I had to go to New York University Hospital last week…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …for a test and I had to have a friend with me…a sighted friend.  She came with me.  And, uh, she, uh…  The office called for the car and they said they had one in the area, that we should go down and wait.  So we did and they came in a short time.  We were on 32nd or 33rd and First Avenue.

Q. Um hm.

A. And he was around 14th Street, so he came up from there and picked us up.  And when he came…’cause so many cars are on First Avenue and people getting in and out of cars…you don’t know what’s what.  But when he came, he called out, "9000 Shore Road" and we were there so we said, yes, that’s where we’re going.

Q. Cool.

A. Yeah.

Q. Um, do you use any maps of any kind?

A. Uh, not really.  No.

Q. No.  Have you ever?

A. I don’t.  No.

Q. OK.

A. I do have…I happen to have a board with the states on it in Braille…I Brailled them.  My sister, God rest her soul, she died… She used to come out and help us a lot.  Um, it has all the states and underneath them, in print, is the capitals…  There’s no room to Braille it because then the pieces wouldn’t fit in.  It’s like a crossword puzzle…I mean a puzzle, you know, with the board and pieces…

Q. Yeah.

A. But I just look at it once in a while to see where the states are and, you know, how close.

Q. Yeah.  That’s…

A. Just an idea so I don’t forget.

Q. Neat.

A. Yeah.

Q. What is one thing that happens frequently when you’re traveling that you like the least?

A. Uh, other drivers ‘cause when our driver has to honk and then he has to yell at somebody, it, it makes me a little nervous.  Because, well, there are so many drivers out there that shouldn’t be driving.  They’ll stop and not even bring their lights on, the drivers say.  And he has to make a quick stop…

Q. Oh.

A. …it’s really not good.  But, outside of that, I’m OK.  I try not to think about it much.

Q. Do you generally know where to turn and what…how to get to where you’re going, or does the drive know?

A. No, the driver has to know.  Except, when we come home, if we’re on Shore Road, I know what turns we’re going to make if we come through, uh, say we come through 75th Street or 86th Street they're big, big cross streets here in Bay Ridge…then I know he has to make a left…

Q. Yes.

A. …to go down to 91st Street and make another left.  However, if he goes along Third or Fourth Avenue, then he goes, makes a right onto 92nd Street, I know when he gets to Shore Road, which is, from Fourth Avenue, about four blocks, five blocks.  He has to make two rights to come into 91st.

Q. Yes.

A. That I know, but, other than that, I don’t know anything.

Q. Have you…

A. My sense of direction is for the birds.

Q. Oh.  Have you ever been brought to the wrong place?

A. Uh, yes.  One time a driver…a foreign driver left me in a building that wasn’t where I was going.

Q. Oh, my.

A. And I was alone and I got very upset and yelling, you know, for help, so, finally, a lady came over and I told her, I don’t want to go in here, I want to go to such and such.  I said, the driver left me off here and I know it’s the wrong building.  So, she said, well, the one you want is right across the street.

Q. Oh.

A. And she took me over.

Q. Nice.  That must have been awful.

A. Oh, yeah.

Q. How did you realize…

A. yes [laugh]

Q. How did you realize it was the wrong place?

A. Uh, it didn’t have the right entrance.

Q. Yeah.

A. I knew the entrance to the building where I was going and this was wrong.

Q. How was it wrong?

A. It had no railing…

Q. Gotcha.

A. …on each side of the steps.

Q. So…

A. So, I knew that’s not where I’m going.

Q. Yup, yup.

A. It’s not where I belong.

Q. Um, what…  Do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations?

A. No.

Q. OK.  What do you attribute to your present level of mobility?

A. Well, I think, just getting older, for one thing.  I’m not as sure of my, uh…  I don’t have the, what is it?  I’m not as stable walking as I used to be.

Q. Yeah.

A. Yeah.  I seem to feel my hips are weaker.  And I, uh, sometimes I’ll zigzag a little bit.

Q. Yeah.

A. But, uh, I use…  I’m having the cane with me, any way, so I straighten out.  But I feel that I’m…  I don’t have that strong sense of being strong enough, walking.

Q. Yeah.  Would you get more mobility instruction?

A. No, they won’t give it.  They only give it now… They wouldn’t even give it like I had it, just for learning to walk around the area where I live.  Now, they have to be able to give it…  They’ll give it only for, you want to go to a supermarket, or you want to go to work.  Other than that, they won’t give it.

Q. So, you’ve asked.

A. Cut out a lot they do for the blind.

Q. What’s that?

A. They’re cutting out a lot of, uh, uh, help for the blind.

Q. So, you actually asked for more and you were told no?

A. No, I didn’t but, uh, they were…  At this camp where we go…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …these people are into everything and, um, they told us we… We have meetings up there and they told us, this is where the money is going.  It’s going to go more for children and not for adults.

Q. Hm.

A. Older adults, blind adults or retarded, and all that, out of the world.  Not much.  There’s no social left.  All that’s been taken away.  We used to go to the Lighthouse.  I used to well like when I told you I was…  I used to guide a girl when I worked in the Botanical Gardens, she lived nearby…

Q. Um hm.

A. ..and she was blind and I used to take her on Tuesday night down to the, um, the Jewish Guild for social for dancing and having a nice evening.  And on Friday nights to the Lighthouse. And in the summer they used to have dancing up on the roof and they had lanterns up there, it was very nice.

Q. Yeah.

A. They used to have swimming at the Lighthouse, and bowling.  It’s all gone.

Q. Yeah.

A. They tore most of the building down and they rebuilt it after only 25 years and now it’s got a great big auditorium, like, the theater…no more swimming, no more bowling, no social life of any kind.  It's all gone.  And all the organizations are doing the same thing.  They’re just for the very young and for people working.  Nothing for the seniors.  Only Visions.  Visions is the only camp left. Lighthouse camp sold their camp and it’s just going to be kept as it is.  Nothing will be built on it.  And it was beautiful, down by, uh, Toms River, _______ Bay, with a lovely, lovely, beautiful camp…nice buildings, lovely rooms…

Q. Yeah.

A. …swimming pool.  So, Visions is the only one left.  They call it VCB…Vacation Camp for the Blind.  And we go up there at the end of July into August, come back August 5.  We go for twelve days.  And they have a beautiful pool.  They keep improving all the time…the grounds…they have about, I think it’s 35 acres.

Q. Well, let me ask you a question.  I have…my students often go to do internships up there and if there was somebody available to teach O&M, would you be interested in doing more or is that just…

A. What’s O&M?

Q. I’m sorry…orientation and mobility.

A. Oh.  Well, you don’t need it there because they have all these rails. 

Q. Well, I mean, as far as practicing or learning new things or exploring…

A. Uh huh.  Oh, yeah, we could have that.

Q. That would be interesting to you?

A. Yeah.  I could do that.  I could ask for that. They offer it.  They have a lot of activities there.  They have computers.  They have…  Well, you could have mobility.  They’ll show you, uh, when you first go up, if you want, they’ll show you all how to get around, go from one place to another.

Q. But, only on the camp.

A. Yeah.

Q. Right.  So, that’s not so very interesting.

A. Uh uh.  

Q. [laugh]  No.

A. No. That no.

Q. You don’t need that.

A. No.  No, because you’re, as I say, you don’t even need your cane.

Q. Right.

A. You go right from one place to another…

Q. Is that a good thing, not to have to carry…

A. Yeah.  It’s nice.  You’re free.

Q. Yeah.

A. Um hm.  I like it.

Q. Yeah.

A. Yeah.

Me: 

Marion had spent 5 weeks recovering from a fractured hip and shoulder after walking off a terrace because she had freed herself of her long cane that afternoon. She also related a story of getting lost, with her long cane, at the VISIONS camp relying on the railing for orientation, but she veered through the gap in the railing and it caused her to panic. 

Current orientation and mobility practices and tools were invented for recently blinded veterans of WWII – young men who were only blind- those who were blind and had additional impairments were purposefully not included in this long cane training. 

As people age, they change- their needs change. Marion indicated she felt weaker, and she felt uncertain about going out alone. She also seems to suggest that using a long cane had become a chore. 

There is a real need to examine the tools and instructional practices for helping older adults who are blind or mobility visually impaired. We need to consider innovating mobility tools that better address older adults needs and consider the natural changes brought on by aging in our instructional practices – that they are not going to work or school every day, doesn’t mean they don’t need to get out of their homes and be effective in travel.

Q. Well, I wonder if you would have any advice, uh, to give to my students who want to be O&M instructors.

A. Uh, I don’t know.

Q. OK.

A. I can’t think of anything.  And, if…  Before these people work up there, they have to be blindfolded and get around…

Q. Yep.

A. …get to know all the buildings.  And there’s quite a bit of walking between each.

Q. Yes.

A. Yeah.  And, they do very well.

Q. Hm.  Well, I enjoy that camp myself.  It’s a beautiful setting.

A. Have you been there?

Q. I have.

A. Oh, yeah, isn’t it great?

Q. Oh, it’s wonderful.  Spring Valley is just a pretty little area.

A. Yeah.

Q. And they have the lake and the pool and everything.

A. Um hm.  Well, yeah, they do and, uh… We have a nice dining area and a nice recreation hall.  They’re connected.

Q. Yeah.

A. And, uh, the library, and the ceramics building.

Q. Nice.

A. All t hat.

Q. Well…

A. And, also, if you want to do exercises, they have a building with all kinds of exercise equipment over there. And then they have outdoor games.  Quite a bit to do.

Q. That sounds like fun.

A. If you don’t want to, you don’t do it.

Q. Yeah, you can just chat and have a good time.

A. And, uh, there’s four…  Let’s see, there’s Frank and Eddie Allen, who you interviewed…

Q. Yeah.

A. …and another young man, he lives in New Jersey, plays the guitar and he sings beautifully…and they get together on our porch…  We have a screened in porch on our dorm seven…that’s near the pool…and, uh…

Q. Nice.

A. And they play out there and we sit and sing and tape it…I tape it.

Q. Oh, that’s lovely.

A. Yeah, we have a good time.

Q. Sounds like it.

A. Then they have entertainment at night sometimes.   The campers will entertain.  And we’ll do that over in Hoffheimer [sp??] building, which is near the entrance to the camp, and they have a, um, uh, a room downstairs where you can buy refreshments and they train these people who want to work on concessions and they train them to sell, and they make change, and we get all kinds of goodies.

Q. [laugh]

A. And then there’s another building near us where they train people also…another group…and they bring a wagon around with all kinds of goodies on it to the, uh, cabins or out to the pool.

Q. Nice.

A. Yeah, it’s really nice.

Q. Well, that’s the interview.

A. Uh huh.

Q. And I wonder if you might have anybody else that I could interview.

A. Well, I asked somebody, but she said no.

Q. OK.

A. She wasn’t interested.  But if I can think of anyone, I’ll get in touch with Terry.

Q. OK.

A. _________ one says yes and then she could call you.

Q. Well, I think I got the whole group of friends, so that’s pretty darn good on my part.

A. Uh huh.

Q. I’m so pleased and so elated that you guys let me spend this morning with you.

A. Well, I hope it was helpful.

Q. It was.  Absolutely.  Both of you…  It’s funny how Frank make the camping seem so out and remote and then come to find out it’s the VCB.

A. No, no.  He went camping out in Pennsylvania on his own…nowhere in particular.  Just raw camping.

Q. So, he did so that, too.  He said you guys all went…

A. That’s what he was talking about when he went with these four blind people.

Q. OK.  So, you weren’t with him on that.

A. No, I didn’t know him then.

Q. Oh.

A. [laugh]

Q. Well, I’m glad I checked that out.  That’s wild, then.

A. Yeah.

Q. Good for them.

A. Yeah, they…these guys…  And one of them, two of them, Eddie Allen is a good carpenter.  He made beautiful stuff.  He was taught…Frank was taught, too.  Uh, I have a chair here in the house that these guys made.

Q. Nice

A. It was given to us recently.   The father of another…of this family that we’re still in touch with…he taught them carpentry at the blind school…Catholic Institute for the Blind.  And, they, uh…  One of them…two of them…  Well, Eddie can see some…he’s partial.  But this Fred, uh…not Fred, yeah, Fred Werner, he’s excellent at, uh, carpentry.  __________newsstands and he decorated his home with carpentry and, uh, and totally blind.

Q. Hm.

A. Yeah.  And he lives out in New Jersey, too, now.

Q. Yeah.

A. But, uh, they were all taught to be independent.

Q. Well…

A. And, uh…

Q. He sounds like an interesting guy.

Q. Thanks so much.

A. No, thank you.  It was a pleasure talking to you.

Q. Well, you’ve been very nice and very kind.  I really appreciate it.

A. I hope it’ll be helpful to you.

Q. It has been already.

A. All right.

Q. Thanks so much.  And bye to Frank.

A. Bye bye.  I’ll tell him.  Bye.

Marion filled in a few more details on their life together. She was Frank’s Second wife. They live now in a place where they have a lot of help getting car service – as they venture out and seek fun with friends. Marion’s story of feeling unable to be walk alone outside once she lost all remaining vision concerns me. We weren’t there on the O&M lesson when she was crying at the busy street corner- 

ME: But we also need to recognize how difficult it is to lose vision- even when you grew up visually impaired. To be blind – no vision is very different from being visually impaired. Yet, there is a commonality in the need for a mobility tool. There are people with low vision who appear “visual” we can tell that they are “seeing” compared to what someone looks like when they are not able to see- they don’t look or focus on things. These people who have low vision or mobility visually impaired have been interrupted or called names for using mobility tools- told they know they aren’t blind – they don’t need that white cane. I ask everyone to be mindful – remember Marion’s story – when someone is using a white cane- respect that choice as a necessary one. 

Interviewed by:         Grace Ambrose

Interview date:          6/16/01