Michael was born sighted in 1943 and became blind in 1945

This week is Michael born in 1943 – 2 years before the long cane was invented. He became blind at 2 years of age due to retinoblastoma. He received his first O&M instruction at the school for the blind from a blind adult. Michael details some of the strategies that the instructor employed to teach him to use sound and some funny outcomes as well. He also discussed some of the differences working with a sighted instructor. We also discussed some of the impacts of the rule that blind people could not be O&M instructors in the 1970s.

 He also wound up in hospital crossing a street independently- where he overheard the doctors telling his parents he might never walk again and vowed to prove them wrong.

I’ve done everything a novice sound engineer can do to improve the recording – perhaps read along with the transcript when possible. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the conversation with Michael.

Visit our website: Email: info@Safetoddles.org TikTok Facebook YouTube
Thanks for listening! Please, leave us a review, ask questions and share with your friends!!
Please donate to help Safe Toddles Inc. achieve our mission to provide blind toddlers with a solution for walking independently with safety.
If you know anyone who needs a belt cane - go to ObtainCane

Transcript

This week is Michael born in 1943 – 2 years before the long cane was invented. He became blind at 2 years of age due to retinoblastoma. He received his first O&M instruction at the school for the blind from a blind adult. Michael details some of the strategies that the instructor employed to teach him to use sound and some funny outcomes as well. He also discussed some of the differences working with a sighted instructor. We also discussed some of the impacts of the rule that blind people could not be O&M instructors in the 1970s.

He also wound up in hospital crossing a street independently- where he overheard the doctors telling his parents he might never walk again and vowed to prove them wrong.

I’ve done everything a novice sound engineer can do to improve the recording – perhaps read along with the transcript when possible. Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the conversation with Michael.

Q. And where were you born?

A. I was born in Mattoon, Illinois.

Q. And where do you live now?

A. In Champagne, Illinois.

Q. What do you do for a living or what did you retire from?

A. I am retired.  I’m no longer working.

Q. What were you before you retired?

A. Oh, that’s right…I was a rehabilitation teacher.

Q. OK.  Where did you go to college?

A. I went to college at Illinois State University in Normal, Illinois.

Q. Uh huh.  And what’s your highest degree?

A. A Bachelor’s degree.

Q. How long have you had a vision impairment?

A. Since about two years of age.

Q. Two years old.  Um, what is it…what’s the name of it?

A. Uh, retinoblastoma.

Q. Right.  Retinoblastoma.  Um, as a child, when did you first realize that you were visually impaired?

A. Uh, boy.  I don’t know…probably at five or six years of age is when I became aware that other people could see and I couldn’t.

Q. Uh huh.

A. My first you know, that's my consciousness of it…

Q. What happened?

A. Um, I think I was, uh, um…  There were some neighborhood kids that were playing and I wanted to join in and they were doing things that I couldn’t.  They were doing strange things that I couldn’t comprehend what they were doing.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And I finally became aware that somehow or other they were perceiving things that I couldn’t.

Q. Ah huh.  Um, when did you first learn to travel independent of another person?

A. Hm.  Well, I suppose at the school for the blind.  I was able to get…  I don’t don't know how it came about, actually, but I was able to get around the campus the area that I needed to go you know by myself.  Now off campus probably seventh or eighth grade.

Q. What device did you use?

A. I didn’t use any until about seventh or eighth grade.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I learned to use the cane.

Q. What did you do before that?

A. Uh, sound reflection, mainly.

Q. Uh huh.  Um, so, you went to school for blind at, um, for kindergarten?

A. Yes.

Q. That was in a different town from where you lived?

A. Yes.

Q. So you lived there?

A. Yes, that’s right.

Q. Did you desire to travel, um, independent of other kids…other adults while you were there?

A. Um, I didn’t think too much about it.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Just around the school grounds I guess. I mean I just did--

Q. Right.

A. But, uh, I did…  It was a real mark of achievement somehow…people who could go off the grounds but, so, it was an accomplishment and I wanted to do that.

Q. Yeah.  Um, and what attitudes did you encounter about wanting, you know, to travel by yourself?

A. Um, well, my parents were a little apprehensive about it.

Q. Mm hm.

A. But, of course, they weren’t around a lot of times…they weren’t at that school.

Q. Yeah.

A. So, um, I didn't have to deal with that much.  I think the attitude, the general attitude was uh fairly supportive.

Q. Uh huh.  Do you have any childhood memories of riding bikes or taking public transit?

A. No.

Q. OK.  What kinds of childhood memories come to light in terms of play activities?  What were some of the favorite things for you to do?

A. Oh, it wasn’t riding a bike but one thing that I did enjoy was roller skating around the school campus.

Q. Oh.  How did you accomplish that?

A. Um, I, you know, I really must have been more my kinesthetic sense or something…of knowing where the sidewalks were. I mean having walked on them a lot.

Q. Um hm.

A. Cause these were certain features like hump here and a certain kind of surface there that gave me an indication of where I was in relation to something else.

Q. Yes.  So, would you go with a group?  Would you go by yourself?  Some combination?

A. It was a combination.

Q. Uh huh.

A. It was usually more fun to skate with other people, uh, but I did sometimes go out there by myself.

Q. Um, so, in seventh and eighth grades was when you must have been working with a teacher.

A. Yes, that’s right.

Q. Do you remember the method that was used to teach you O&M?

A. The teach I had was blind and, uh, I don’t think he probably had any formal training.  But, he, I mean except life experience Um…

Q. I’m very interested to hear your recollections about how you all worked together.

A. Um, well, he would show me how to hold the cane by positioning my hand on the cane and also how to move the cane and touch technique.  And he also let me feel his arm and the hand and how he was holding the cane.  He relied a lot also a lot on sound reflection.  Oh, um, sounds from the environment for orientation, you know, like, um, hear that train whistle, you know, point out where the railroad tracks were in relationship to where we were and traffic and things like that.  Um, a lot of…a lot of what he passed on was pretty much experience-based I'm sure.

Q. Yes.

A. He relied on landmarks a lot.  Things that, uh, you either touch or again sound reflected from an object that I remember [laugh]. I remember one place in particular… there was a street here a street crossing or, I don’t know it must have been a light pole or something…  Anyway, he would always say, there’s our old friend and reach out and whack it with is cane.

Q. [laugh]

A. So, one evening I was with some other kids and we were passing this place and I said, there’s our old friend and I reached out and whacked and it went thug instead of click. 

Q. [laugh] 

A. I had actually tapped a person.

 Q. [laugh] and the person said I don’t know who you are.  [laugh]  So that was…that’s an example of using reflected sound.

A. Yes.

Q. Of being able to tell that there’s something in front of you like that.

A. Right.

Q. And, uh, and putting other things together would let you, sort of, say, well, that must be that pole which the person was obviously probably standing

A. Yes.

Q. …between you and the pole.

A. Yeah.  He, uh, this teacher relied a lot on, uh, teaching us to observe our environment and reasoning from that in terms of orientation like what you mentioned, like the, oh, the sound of the train and you know where the sun is in the morning and in the afternoon.

Q. Right.

A. Perception, directionality and other, you know, things peculiar to the environment like the factory whistle and other things like that as well as more immediate you know environmental features like steps, and humps, and trees and poles and so forth.  But I thought found that to be invaluable…

Q. Yeah.  So, was there a progression, do you remember?  Like, you started indoors and then moved out…you went easier areas and moved to downtown areas… Was there some sort of…that you remember how…?

A. Yeah, I don’t really remember how we started but I think it was probably indoors as far as just basic…how to hold the cane, how to move the cane, and things like that.

Q. Right.

A. Uh, and, what I remember most distinctly was the route to town and oh there were places of interest within two or three blocks. Like there was a a malt shop which a lot of people liked to go and so that would be the first objective.  Uh, we worked on that for a little bit and then for a time or two he’d say, Tuesday at ten o’clock, I want you to go up there by yourself and I’ll meet you there.

Q. Oh.

A. So, he did that a lot of different times.  I think that it was a progression, but each new objective—I don’t think he called them that—but was a little farther away or a little more complicated..

Q. I’m sorry…[aside to dog]  He’s driving me nuts. [aside to dog]  It’s only when I’m on the phone.

A. [laugh]

Q. And each new objective…you…would, um, be little tougher?

A. Yeah, Uh huh.  Like, the malt shop was a straight shot up the street.

Q. Yeah.

A. You know, and, um, someplace else might require going so many blocks and turning, you know, left for two blocks and so forth.  And we worked on that a time or two and then he’d say, you know, I’ll meet you there.  And which was you know really great for developing confidence.

Q. Yes.  Do you have a sense that he really just let you go by yourself and was not following you…was not having any of that?

A. Uh, I’m pretty sure that’s true.

Q. Good, good.  Yeah.  How, um, do you have any…  Like, what was the method for, um…  Did you all communicate walking down the street?  Was he following around you, behind you, especially in the beginning?

A. He was usually…  Well, in the very beginning, he kind of walked alongside.

Q. U huh.

A. Um, then he’d follow at a distance where we could still communicate…or sometimes he’d say, he would say, stop at the next street crossing and wait for me there.

Q. Right.

A. So, he’d drop back a little farther.

Q. Neat.

A. I knew he was around but…  I worked with mobility instructors later, um, out there not there, back in Texas

Q. Oh.

A. …who were professionally trained I mean gone to Western Michigan or Boston College.

Q. Oh.  Neat…so, you can sort of compare

A. Yeah.  And they can see and they can… well they can do things differently.  They, um, have longer distances they can be different places and observe what I was doing.

Q. Uh huh.

A. …this guy, um, couldn’t do that. He worked a little more closely to me, but he did a lot of the same things I mean, I suspect, for instance, that a sighted mobility instructor would, if he said, meet me someplace, I would just assume that they would observe me getting there. I don’t know if that’s true, but I got to assume that.

Q. Yeah, you just had a feeling.

A. I’m sure he didn’t.

Q. Yeah.

A. It wouldn't have had much in the way of monitoring.

Q. Right.  And you could sort of keep track of him because of his own cane sounds?

A. Yeah, sometimes.  Yeah, yeah, I guess most of the time. I guess that is true.

Q. Did you try to not…you know, after a while, you just became used to it so you just not…you could sort of…

A. Like I say as we went along sometimes he would say, wait for me at the next street crossing or  you know, go to the next street corner, turn right, and wait for him at the end of that block.

Q. Right.

A. So, he would drop a lot further back and I wasn’t aware of it then and I think he just…

Q. Oh, nice.

A. …he evidently had enough confidence in me so that I wouldn’t, you know, kill myself.

Q. [laugh]  Which is important.  [laugh]  Um, yeah, I’m training someone right now who’s totally blind to be a mobility instructor so I’m out collecting, you know, insights into ways to assist him, um, you know, to get the job done, so this is just real, real good stuff, um, that I’m learning here.  Um, any insights into, um, the method for crossing streets…for teaching someone to cross streets that he used.

A. Um, well, um, certainly depends on what kind of street crossing…that's something that I taught for a few years as rehab teacher until we got, uh, professional mobility instructors…

Q. Oh, wonderful.  Wonderful…so you can tell me firsthand…

A. …so for the first few years we did that they didn’t want us to after that.

Q. Yeah.

A. They had the real McCoy you know.

Q. [laugh]  Quote unquote.

A. Yeah.  Um, one thing that I think you know seems very important is lining up correctly.

Q. Uh huh.

A. At street crossings even if it’s walking back a little ways and, um, going on the sidewalk, I'm assuming sidewalk here.

Q. Right.

A. So, and, sometimes if it's just a cross and the sidewalk is going along the cross street, it may be up close to the street or if its a gas station or something as a target and uh… establish a straight line, sometimes, I, would align myself or I would have the student, you know, go back a little way to where there was a shoreline they could follow or grass or something.

Q. [laugh]

A. …and, um, try to take a straight line from that…

Q. Right

A. …um, I would… I would always suggest to the student if your going to veer, if you're going to err you know if they're going to oh it's better to veer away from the traffic than toward it.

Q. Sure.  [laugh] That’s good advice.

A. Sometimes it’s better to overcompensate and then get your bearings on the other side.

Q. Right.

A. So, also, I’m a great believer in waiting and standing at a crossing for a while to see what traffic is doing…understand what traffic is doing as best I can. If it’s not a familiar street crossing, you know, you have to learn if it’s a stop street or one way or what the situation is.  I think it’s better to take a little time, not get a hurry not to you know make mistakes and get hurt.

Q. Right.

A. I should probably tell you that when I was about 14, I with another blind man and we were crossing a street.  It was it didn't have a stop light and there was a big truck turning a corner in front of us and we thought the truck had gone by and I stepped…I guess we both stepped out somehow oh I got tangled up See what had happened it was a double trailer…

Q. Oh, wow.

A. …and so one trailer had gone by, um, as he was turning the corner, the other one hadn’t cleared yet and I walked right into it.

Q. Oh.

A. And really had severe injuries and he in particular.

Q. Oh.

A. that seems to bother me, still to this today, so.

Q. So, you, you got rolled over a little or…

A. Yeah.

Q. Oh, my.  And you had to go to the hospital.

A. Yeah.  Yeah, I was in the hospital for quite a while they didn't think and the doctor told my parents that I wouldn’t walk again probably…

Q. Oh, my.

A. …which I overheard and that made me determined.

Q. Good.

A. Um, and I managed you know…  I had trouble with my knee after that…had two or three operations but I finally had it replaced a couple of years ago.

Q. Oh.

A. Which is much better now.

Q. Good.

A. But, anyway, I certainly learned something from that that was a hard lesson.

Q. Right.

A. that sometimes things aren't always as they appear.  And, I mean, I didn’t, I didn’t have any idea that trucks had double trailers.

Q. Right.

A. And…

Q. Yeah, there’s no real way to prepare for that.  I mean, no…

A. Yeah.

Q. ____________ everything.  I’m sorry, I cut you off…  The other things…

A. I mean, I think…I don’t know how you prepare for that except to wait…

Q. Right.

A. …wait longer.

Q. Right.

A. Wait longer than you think you might need to, even if you think…

Q. You’re waiting for a clear indication that you can go.

A. Um, it was also very hard to cross a busy street after that.

Q. Yeah.

A. It took…  Fortunately, I had some friends who made me do it.

Q. Ah.

A. And then it was OK.  But I was terrified the first time I did it

Q. So, you had…  Did you have that same teacher…mobility instructor after your accident?  Or had you finished with mobility?

A. I’d finished with mobility and I think, I think he’d retired by then.

Q. Uh huh.  So, it was really up to your friends and you to encourage you to get back up on the horse again, as they say.

A. Yeah.

Q. Wow.  Um, what travel tool do you using now?

A. I’m sorry.

Q. What do you use now as a travel tool?

A. A cane.

Q. A cane.  What kind of cane?

A. The, um…  It’s a folding cane.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I can’t recall the...   It has about six sections, it’s fairly durable cane, nothing special.  It seems to hold up pretty well.  It folds up into a nice package.

Q. What kind of tip?

A. Um, nylon peg for a tip.

Q. Uh huh.  How many different types of mobility tools have you tried?

A. Well, a rigid cane…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …I still have one of those around…I seldom use it.  Um, and the several different types of folding cane…I have been with, I've never had a guide dog I've been around a lot of people in fact my first marriage.  My wife had a guide dog.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So I have a great deal of respect for them. 

Q. Yeah.

A. (inaudible).

Q. Why do you prefer the folding cane over a rigid cane?

A. Mainly for the convenience of when I get to where I’m going.

Q. Uh huh.

A. On a bus you know rigid cane is a hassle trying to find a place to put it.

Q. Yeah.

A. And, then, it inevitably sticks out someplace where you don’t want it to. Somebody trips over it.

Q. Right.  Nice.  Um, have you ever tried any other kind of tip, roller tip or…?

A. I tried the marshmallow tip…you know, the big…?

Q. Yup.

A. OK um and I didn't seem to like it. I probably didn't try it long enough.

Q. Uh huh.  How about electronic travel aids?

A. I got to play with one for a few minutes but I can’t really say that I’ve had a lot of experience or expertise.

Q. Do you remember your impressions of it?

A. Um, yeah, that it was an interesting toy.

Q. [laugh]

A. I mean I like gadgets but um, but it seemed to me that, at least, in things that I had any exposure to like the, I think the Mowat

Q. Mowat Sensor?

A. Yeah.  And something else earlier.  One of the early, you know, I forget what you call it, but it seemed like you almost have to use the cane anyway so you don't step off.

Q. Right.

A. And things like that, so I thought, you know, I’m not sure, well it gives you the information a little bit sooner I suppose--the objects that you might I just didn't seem like practical or it didn't, it wasn't it didn't give enough additional information to make carrying something else worthwhile.

Q. Interesting, interesting.  How many canes do you own?

A. Oh, I think three.

Q. Three.  Um, and do you interchange them, or…?

A. No, I keep one in reserve in case something happens to the first one.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I hardly ever gets used and I do have a rigid cane, which, uh, I’ll sometimes use in the winter.

Q. Uh huh.

A. If I need to go out probing through snow and things like that…

Q. It’s effective for that. Interesting. Um, do you buy your own canes?

A. Yes.

Q. Where do you get them from?

A. Usually catalogs like, uh…  I can’t remember the last time I bought one.  Um, from the Independent Living Aids or one of those type places.

Q. Yeah.  Um, how did you get to and from work?

A. Um, usually…  Well, to my office, I usually to take city buses… regular city buses.  Occasionally cabs.  And a lot of a, a lot of, a lot of the times I had to get out of town to people’s homes and then I would hire a driver.

Q. Um, I’d like to get some tips from you about each of those systems that you used.  So, let’s start with the buses.  Do you have any tips about, um, effective accessing buses for people who are blind?  How did you do it?

A. Uh, becoming familiar with the schedule for one thing.

Q. Oh.  How do you do that?

A. Um, usually…  Well, we have two ways of doing it here, I guess.  One is the, oh, there is the number to call and get information about bus schedules, tell them where you are and where you want to go and they'll tell you what bus to take when it comes and where.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And the other is get a bus schedule from the company that you can pick up on the bus and somebody can read it, um, and you know make notes about it.

Q. So, with that, you end up you don’t have to stand very long at the…

A. Right.

Q. Which is a nice thing.

A. Yeah, and it also gives you…you become familiar with the schedules and the different routes. Give gives me a little more flexibility in planning how I am going to get some place.

Q. Right.

A. Uh, can I take this bus and change here at such and such a time but it might be a little, a little quicker if I did it at such and such…

Q. Uh huh.  Good.  So, how would you locate the bus stop, say, if it was an unfamiliar route?

A. A plan for a familiar…?

Q. An unfamiliar or a brand new route.

A. OK, well, one of the…well, a general rule here, I guess, although it doesn’t always hold…is that the bus stop is before a street crossing.

Q. Uh.

A. …I’m sorry…

Q. Yes.

A. So, if I, you know, wanted to catch a bus going south on South Street it means I would have to wait for that bus on the on the, um, my directions are terrible, on the uh northwest corner.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Sometimes that doesn’t hold, when it doesn't then I would try to ask somebody around or, if I’d been on a bus previously I'd ask the driver "where do I need to wait to catch the next bus".

Q. Ah.

A. Or coming back, where should I wait for the bus?

Q. Neat.

A. You know going back in the opposite direction we just came where should I wait?

Q. So, did you, um…is this part of your training when you were in school…taking buses?

A. No, uh…

Q. Where’d you learn how to do that?

A. Well, let’s see…  Not when I was in school. When I graduated college and was planning to begin a rehab. teaching job, they uh, they insisted that I go to the state rehab center the Illinois Visually Handicapped Institute it was called at that time in Chicago.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And, of course, I didn’t think I needed it but did learn, learn a lot there.

Q. Neat.

A. Um, and I did have--probably my first exposure to city buses in Chicago, which is quite a bit different here or other places I've been in but, at least…because   Well, mainly because, um, the bus system there runs on a grid pattern. 

Q. Ah.

A. And here, they’re making great loops and go forth.

Q. Right.

A. So, it’s different, but at least I had some experience with getting on a bus and getting off a bus.  That kind of thing. No, I this isn’t, you know, Greyhound-type buses or things like that. Going like that is kind of different.

Q. Sure.  Um, any tips about the taxis?

A. Um, generally here, you know, we have to call to get a cab.

Q. Right.

A. There are a couple of places I guess that you can go to, that you're likely find a cab stand sort of place. But not very many places any more, around here, anyway…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …can you do that…  Um, if it was a place where it was a cab stand, I mean, that’s where I'd go and I sometimes yell, taxi 

Q. Yep.

A. and see if anybody ever stops

Q. [laugh

A. Otherwise, if I’m calling for a cab I'm very specific about

Q. Excuse me.

A. Where I want them to come, you know to what door if this building has more than one door.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, Obviously ask that they blow their horn and or I’ll say well see in fact lots of times I'll say you know, now I’m blind I may not see you come up--well I won't see you come up-- [laugh]

Q. [laugh]

A. [laugh] no two ways about it But, um, I won’t know when you're there until you blow your horn.

Q. Yeah, you might not know when they're there right.

A. Yeah.

Q. And that works typically?

A. Yeah.

Q. Um…

A. Of course, I’ve been around here so long that a lot of the drivers know me.

Q. They do.  That’s nice.  And do you…when you get in the cab, um, do you have a sense of how much…they don’t know where they’re going or…

A. Yeah, um, especially coming home from, like the train station…

Q. Right.

A. …there are a surprising number of cab drivers who don’t know I mean unless they’ve been around for a while…don’t know where my street is--

Q. Right.

A. …and so its I suppose they find it eventually but it takes an awful lot of time and frustration if I can tell you know what street to take first turn, what to look for, what kind of landmarks.

Q. So, did you…  How did you get those, um, directions?

A. Um, well, I made it a point when I came to town here to learn the a at least the area where I was going to be where I work where I live at the time.  What were the streets. What order they came, like, um Green Street is one block north of John Street, Greely and then Springfield, and so forth.

Q. Right.

A. Progression of the streets both ways and whether they're one way or where there are stop lights and I asked a lot of questions.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And I just, I work really hard at memorizing them. Now there are a lot of areas in town that I don’t know. Uh, but I know the major streets.

Q. So, you did that through asking people.

A. Yeah.

Q. And, did you actually go out and travel them yourself, or were you able to just go on…

A. I generally traveled them myself. I found that it stuck better with me if I actually did it.

Q. Yeah.  Ah, so, and using a driver…is that similar to a taxi or is there different strategies when you’re using a driver?

A. Um, I think even more with a driver.  It’s important to know as much as you can of where you’re going and how to get there.  And uh different landmarks…  I’ve had some wonderful people as drivers and some of them know the area I travel like the back of their hand, but I’ve also had some who, you know, didn't know straight up. And actually great people, you know, I liked being with them, but you know they didn't, they just couldn’t tell north from south--

Q. [laugh]  Weren’t much help.  [laugh]

A. So, you know…

Q. Neat.  So, that really is about what securing information over the phone before you leave?

A. Um hm.

Q. Uh huh.  Or, asking other people who I think might, might have been there might be familiar with the area. Uh, sometimes, oh, I’d, uh…  Sometimes, I’d ask my secretary, you know, to get out a map and I say now tell me how to…you know, what highway do I take to get there and what towns are along the way.

Q. Neat.

A. Things like that.  Also, I’ve asked the person on the other end--you know, where I was going you know what and to get as much information as I could about you know what kind of house do you live in and you know how far is it. And what kind of landmarks should I look for.  And, so, I, I’ve built up, you know, a pretty good repertoire, I guess, pretty good understanding of the area I traveled, uh…  Unfortunately, it’s beginning to fade now that I don't use it.

Q. Well, did you write this stuff down, or… How did you keep it?

A. Yeah, I did.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I did for a while in all the years that I worked in the area the less I had to commit to writing, but, generally, as the as part of our case materials at least for a long time.  One of the teachers of the uh--that I had done the in-take interview with directions for each home and even had a summary of you know from, you know, from Highway 49, you know take such and such road you know Claven road to the post office or to the red Mc Tavern or you know whatever it is…

Q. Right.

A. Turn right, you know those kind of directions so that either I can review it or somebody else came after me that handle the case--they'd have an idea of how to get there.

Q. Neat.  Um, how about taking planes…any tips for air travel?

A. I’m sorry.

Q. Air travel…taking planes…

A. I really haven't done much of that.

Q. OK.

A. I don't, you know, oh I guess three or four times in my life, but I’m not a huge air traveler.

Q. Ok.  And, do you remember what system you used for that?  Did you go with somebody, or…?

A. Um, yeah, um…most of the time I went with somebody and aside from that, I’d call the airlines and explain that I was, that I was blind a severely impaired airport, I’d really appreciate it…

Q. And their response would be…

A. They were accommodating.

Q. Excuse me, what?

A. And they were accommodating.

Q. What would they do…meet you at the door, or…?

A. Yeah, or at the ticket…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …ticket…

Q. Nice.  So, then, from there you would get a sighted guide. 

A. Uh hmm.

Q. Um, what I’m also interested in is, um, have you ever been, sort of, disoriented by…when you’re walking or in familiar or unfamiliar places…and what are some strategies that you use when that happens?

A. Yeah, I have.  And easier said that done…the first thing is not to panic.

Q. Yeah.

[side B]

Q. Let’s see…  So, you were saying the first thing, you stop and think.

A. Yeah.  I think it’s…  There’s a tendency at least some people, and probably myself, as well too to get real panicky.  If I don’t know where I am.

Q. Yes. 

A. Um, it’s important for me anyway to stop, time out and don’t move…stay where you are and think about what you know…what you know about the situation. And where did  you start out and what can you hear…what can I hear…um you know if its daytime orits not where's the nearest traffic sounds…try to put as much of that together as I can.  If I didn’t have a clue of where I was or which way to go, I’d think what I would do is make my way towards traffic sounds and see if I could find somebody.

Q. Flag a pedestrian or a driver?

A. Yeah, whichever.

Q. Yeah, somebody. Uh huh.

A. And I’ve done that.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And I have done that. I, I… I say I’m lost and I don’t know where I am and can you tell me what street this is?

Q. Uh hh.

A. The questions to ask and usually that’ll be enough to get me back on tract.

Q. Ah. Neat.

A. I remember being like a when I first went to college kind of a major I think, but I'd been across the campus, which I wasn't familiar with at all, to visit a friend and going back to where I lived and, uh, it was late at night, nobody around and I wasn’t very familiar with the campus and I just got horribly lost. I, you know, I couldn’t figure out what I’d done. There were several intersecting walks and they kind of curved into each other so I probably took the wrong, uh, wrong track at one of those places. And I just, you know, I thought well I was beginning to get a little panicky it was fairly late at night and I had to get up for class the next morning and uh, for a while I made a joke of it, and I thought well, you know, what’s the worst that can happen?  There are going to be people out here going to class at eight o’clock in the morning at least. So, I can’t be lost for whatever--8 hours.

Q. [laugh]

A. or whatever it is. Finally I did find bushes, and some other things that I knew to be the library so then it was OK.

Q. Ah.

A. So, that’s another strategy that I, I use a lot.  You know, what, you know how long have you got.

Q. That's how you calm yourself.

A. Yes.

Q. Remind yourself that you didn’t get picked up and put in Guam or something. 

A. That's right.

Q. That you’re still in the area.  That’s nice.  And, so, those bushes…what were they, thorny bushes…I mean they were real obvious that that was the library or…

A. They were evergreen but they, were the only place that I, I was aware of that they grew out, you know, between the sidewalk and the building.

Q. Oh, neat.

A. And then I went and found the entryway and I knew that was the way.

Q. Oh, so you confirmed it with that.  Right.  And then you knew right where you were.

A. Yeah.

Q. Super.  OK.

A. I’d probably been around the quad a few times, uh, or probably the middle of that, but anyway it was just dumb luck that I happened on that bush. I think the important thing to me was realizing that, you know, this is a self-limiting problem you know I can’t be lost for more than a few hours…

Q. Right.

A. …and it's not unless it's middle of winter--

Q. Right, which is a whole different issue, absolutely.

A. Yeah, now I have gotten lost when a cab, I took a cab someplace and he let me off at the wrong place and left before I realized I wasn't where I wanted to be and I didn’t know where I was and it was about 10 below.

Q. Ho.

A. …and then I did start getting worked up and that’s one time when I went to the--I mean I heard traffic on a nearby street and I went there and I flagged down a car and cause I thought, you know--

Q. Right. This is life and death right here.  Yeah.  And so, you would able to flag someone down.

A. Yeah…who, as it happened, gave me a ride.

Q. Excellent, yeah.

A. That wasn’t what I was looking for, but I didn't turn it down..

Q. [laugh]  So, you were kind…he was…it was really the wrong place and they felt that they should just drive you there.

A. Yeah.

Q. Wow, that’s pretty serious.  So, did you…have you changed…did you change after that what you did with taxi drivers?

A. Yes.  I made more certain that I knew where I was and that they  wait, wait just a minute before you leave, you know make sure I am in the right place.

Q. Right.  And then, what…that you would wave to them, or…

A. Yeah.

Q. Right, so that worked.  

A. Yes.

Q. Great.  Um, I know you were telling me how you used regular maps with someone.  Have you ever used tactile maps or any other kinds of maps for people who are blind?

A. Not extensively.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I have, I have seen some, uh… I think they’re…  Well I found that they're most useful for getting a general concept of areas.  I didn’t really use one, I guess to uh plot a specific route. But just to establish relationships between one thing and another.

Q. Neat.

A. Although the situations would have none of them available or

Q. Yeah, yeah.  You know, what’s interesting to me is that it sounds like you go to new places and you explore them.  Is that right? Just so you can teach yourself a new place…or you use a combination of that and talking to other people?

A. Yeah.

Q. …to gain information.  I mean, I guess where I’m coming from…  The question is often raised, if you have good mobility skills, can you do that sort of thing or do you always need to, like…if you, like, needed, like, some sort of instruction by a professional…which I don’t think is the case.  I think with good solid skills…it sounds like you do, you have A, the confidence and B, the knowledge to learn new places.  Would you agree with that or?

A. Yeah, I think so.  I think it may be more of a problem I'm sure is more of a problem for some, someone who doesn't have um, good spatial relationships I guess.

Q. Uh huh.

A. or basic concepts I mean.

Q. Sure.

A. I’ve always pictured things in my mind.  Um, I picture, what I call anyway, the relationship of one thing to another.  Where one street is with respect to another and I know, I’ve worked with some people who didn’t have any concept, the block had four sides.

Q.   Oh.

A. Um, that’s, that’s really a problem.

Q. Right.

A. And so I suppose there are people that what I do won't work for them.

Q. Right.

A. But, yeah, I think, um, um, what I would like to see happen…and I think it does happen quite a bit, is the mobility should be able to give one or more how to, how do, how to travel, how to orient oneself, um, and to be fairly aware every time the situation changes they have to call an O&M instructor.

Q. Right.  Yeah.

A. I think some people rely on them that way.  I hope not to answer your question.

Q. Well, as a rehabilitation teacher, mobility instructor, did you…were you a member of AAWB?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Um, and when the, when the new regulations for mobility instructors were being written, did you have any input or any thoughts about the restriction that you had to be sighted?

A. Yeah, I, uh, I thought that was a little too categorical.

Q. Yeah, I mean, given your experiences, it sounds like you might have even questioned the value in that.

A. Yeah, I had…  Well, I remembered when I was working with, uh, a client who I had to, uh, teach, she wanted to be able to walk to church.

Q. Right.

A. From her home and it wasn’t really too far, but there was a very busy intersection with a stop light and I was teaching her how to cross there and we were getting it done.  I mean she still lacked a lot of confidence and required more, probably a lot more going over the territory, and things like that.  But, then, uh, you know, the agency decided that, um, based an O&M instructor well not based here but came down and we were supposed to have situations for them to look over, to monitor, and give us advice, and things like that.  And so I you know introduced him to the client and showed him the intersection we’d been working on. He said, "no way, NO WAY should--she shouldn't be crossing there.

Q. Oh.

A. She shouldn’t be doing that.  So, I mean, I, I had to stop.  I couldn’t do it any more.  They wouldn’t let me.

Q. Oh, my.

A. And I can appreciate the caution, the liability, and all that kind of thing, but, um, they, they…I thought took that opportunity away from her.

Q. Yeah.

A. And, you know, I always tried to caution people doing this is not without danger, but what you do is try to make…to lessen the odds of something going wrong as much as possible. By learning as much as you can and taking precautions. Yeah I felt bad about that.

Q. Sure.  You were saying… so…

A. Anyway, I think, you know, they’re, they're, I think it's great to have sighted O&M instructors around, available.  I think it’s a great advantage much of the time, but I don’t think you can rule somebody out because he is blind from being a good instructor.

Q. What makes a good instructor?

A. Um, I think knowing your limitations.  If you can’t safely know when you're not doing that, you know, how much responsibility you want to take? And being knowledgeable about the basics the way they feel. I wouldn't, I wouldn't teach somebody how to cross an intersection if I didn't feel like I could, I could where I felt unsafe myself and where I thought level wasn't up to the task.

Q. Did you get any kind of instruction?  I mean, you went to that rehab center, so they must have, you know, taught you to be an instructor at that point?

A. Yeah.

Q. So what, what sorts of things did you learn?  Did you lean about…you talked about the senses.  Is that something you learned there or something you learned on your?

A. Well, that’s something…at that point, I thought I knew more about that than they did.

Q. Oh.

A. Um, and, in fact, they told me I don't know how long ago, but more recent times anyway that uh and O&M instructor said given a little more credence to the other sense.  

Q. Oh.

A. That’s my, my, um, my initial exposure to professional O&M instructors…college trained was that they, they decide on cane techniques…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …and, uh, kind of a nod and a wink to things like that, but not about for instance putting together a picture reasoning out of the other environmental cues, things like that.

Q. Interesting.

A. I think there’s, um, a lot more now…a lot more completed approach initially it seemed to be like it was primarily good cane technique.

Q. [laugh]  That’s very interesting insight.  So, it just really sounds like that, these regulations, they just sort of railroaded them in…that there wasn’t any…  I mean, why, why on earth did they do that?  I still haven’t really been able to understand that.  Do you have any insight into why that was…why sight was put as a…you know, you had to be 20/20 and…

A. Um…

Q. I mean, I can understand wanting to make it a Master’s degree program…

A. Um hm.

Q. …but I can’t understand the other part.

A. Um, well and this is fairly cynical I suppose, but I, I, thought at the time the reason was that it was clearly a matter of turf.

Q. Ah.

A. the more exclusive you are, the more important you are.

Q. Ah.

A. And so, you know, you--we can do this and you can't then get more status.

Q. Right.  Instead, it just shot us in the foot.  That’s really…I think it was one of the biggest mistakes my forebears made.  [laugh]  Um, because we just limited ourselves so much…

A. Um hm.

Q. …you know, to having all these people who are performing this and now we have, what, like 1300 or something for the country.

A. Hm.

Q. It’s really, you know, not getting the job done.  I don’t know what they were trying to do.  So, I think we’re trying to make up some lost ground here.  Um, but it just, that was I think one of the biggest mistakes.  I don’t  think they ever saw what they were doing.  I don’t know.  I mean, it was an obvious…. Obviously it was directed at trying to establish something they…but it was already in existence.  You know what I’m saying?  It was like it was already being done; why not capitalize on that?  Um,

A. Oh, yeah, I think the effort to specialize had its down side. I'm not, you know I think it's great having people getting immersed in certain fields and develop expertise but by developing specialists um, and then come to believe that only they can do it. 

Q. Right.

A. And nobody else can.  And then there aren't enough of them that doesn't get done.

Q. Well, but that, to me, is still…that just means you’re not acknowledging the specialized skills that you had, for example.

A. Yeah.

Q. That you and your colleagues had, that obviously not just anyone could do what you were doing.

A. Yeah.

Q. And, so, to embrace that I think would have been a healthier way to get the specialization, you know…it’s uniqueness that exists today.  Yeah, I, uh…it doesn’t make sense to me that that…you know, will…you’re not doing it.  I don’t know.  It’s like, well, cause that to me just doesn’t make sense It never will.

A. Well there was a big debate in Rehab teachers a couple of years ago about whether rehab teachers can do counseling or not.

Q. Hm.

A. In fact, at one time, here in Illinois we had a we were kind of running counter to a lot of other places. I recall at one point counseling all the teachers.

Q. I see.

A. But, uh, I remember the people from Western Michigan and places like that were just adamant that rehab teachers don't do counseling that, that's a special field in itself and we don’t do that.

Q. Oh.

A. You know I won't criticize the (inaudible) but its pretty hard to do anything working with people that doesn't involve counseling.

Q. Right.  Good point.  Good point.  So, I guess I understand what you’re saying, that, um, some ways there’s a field of knowledge that we'd like to people to say that we got these degrees before they call themselves something or something and yet, when we do that, we always exclude people who are probably very good at it and could teach the field something as well.

A. When a group of people get labeled as professionals…

Q. Uh huh…

A. …then to try to reserve status and they start talking like, writing like, and thinking like there’s nobody else who can do…

Q. Right.

A. …what they do.  Now maybe they have a particular expertise but, um, because I’m not a chef, doesn't mean that I can’t cook a meal?

Q. Right.  Good point.  OK, well, I have some more questions about you again.  [laugh]

A. Sure.

Q. Um, one of my favorite questions is what one thing happens frequently when traveling do you like the least?

A. Uh, what one thing happens that I like the least?

Q. Yeah.

A. Well, these days, more and more, it’s, it’s noise.

Q. Oh.

A. Uh, well, I mentioned my hearing is declining.

Q. Yeah.

A. And, uh, so, I think that I’m less and less able to distinguish things that I could before. Well like sound reflections. 

Q. Yeah.

A. And I get mad you know why (inaudible) and I go and I don’t think it’s more, but well just traffic or construction or crowds or things like that I less and less comfortable with that. Now that's just my own--

Q. Uh huh.

A. individual thing.

Q. Yeah.  What do you do about that?

A. Uh, well I try to plan…  Well, now that I’m not working, I travel with my wife a lot more than I did before.

Q. Um hm.

A. When I’m with someone, I and if not if I go by myself, I try and plan times where I think crowds will be less and traffic will be less…things like that.  Or, or try to think more about the scheduling and I can do that rather than have somebody else schedule be inconvienced.

Q. Right.  Um, what do you want sighted pedestrians to do when they want to help?

A. Ask.

Q. Ask.

A. Uh, not assume one way or the other.

Q. Yeah.

A. Instead of taking me by the arm and propel me across the street "here, I’ll help you."

Q. [laugh]

A. Whether you want to go or not.

Q. Right.

A. It, I think its always great if you ask, you know would you like some and I can say yes, thank you or I can say no. But a person needs to let you go. Or ask, not ask just I don’t either way I can't give up so. I like when people ask, I can go.

Q. Right.  Um, did you belong to any other professional or consumer organizations?

A. Uh, I belong to the Local affiliate of the American Council of the Blind.  I’m not terribly active.  But I belong.

Q. Um, how did ADA impact you?  Did you notice a difference before and after its passage?

A. Uh, well, I personally hadn't really noticed a lot.

Q. Um hm.

A. I doubt I don’t think (inaudible) Again, I'm not much in the mainstream of what is going on. I have (inaudible) But I don't know that for sure.

Q. Neat.  Well, that’s all my questions.  

Q. Oh, OK.  Well, neat.  Well, listen, I really appreciate this a lot, Michael.  I gained a lot from it, as I said.  I am real interested in speaking to all the…or as many as I can…of people like yourself were RT/O&Ms before, we had a profession [laugh] and stigmatized and, you know, specialized and all those things.  So, uh, you know, this has just been great for me to get talk to you about your experiences.  Um, I just, uh, do appreciate it.

A. Uh, I enjoyed talking to you, too.  I'm interested in the nature of your project?

Q. Oh, yeah…well, I hope to have a book come out of it.  Um, it’s a real grassroots effort, it’s really just driving me…it’s just real motivating to do these and then to transcribe them and, uh, so, it’s been a lot of fun.  I’m sort of in the beginning stages of it…I’ve done about 15 interviews so far and I hope to just really expand it out.

A. Great.

Q. So, it’s a long-term thing.  [laugh]  But I think it’s sorely needed and in our field…a little jumpstart into the insights of people who, um, you know, travel and, and, you know…what are, what are the nuts and bolts of that.  We need to document these.

A. Well, I think that's great. I had great O&M.

Q. Neat.

A. Rehab teaching has changed a lot.  From time I was working it got more and more recognizable [laugh]

Q. Oh, in what way?

A. Oh, I don’t know, it just seemed like, well, you know you have specialist and we, we, uh, got put into or merged with vocational rehab folks here more and more working for them.  The tests that we did rehab teaching we did for folks with vocational outcomes, but it seemed like, uh, when I started, the whole group, about the quality of life and things like that and it didn't matter about being justified by the system.

Q. Right.  Yeah, that’s, that’s…it’s continuing to move in that direction.  I mean, just, ah, dangerously slow.

A. You know instead of--

Q. What?

A. Well, you know, when we, uh, when I started in several years our case records were narratives about what we did with people and things like that.

Q. Right.

A. It got to where checklists. 

Q. Right.

A. I just hated that. 

Q. Yeah.

A. It just seemed real cold you know, I didn’t know if it was a 2 or a 3 or what rating it was.

Q. Right.

A. What I wanted to say was the person doing it now, before--anyway.

Q. Yeah, I know.

A. ____________ go together.

Q. How did you do your assessment in mobility?

A. Well, I, I first of all would ask the people  what they did. What they wanted to do and then, uh, in as far as I could I'd say look show me.  If they were having difficulty inside there inside their home I'd say well show me what the problem is.  Let's go stand up here and you go in the kitchen or maybe, uh, you know, let's go out, out your front door here and what do you know about your area. I would talk to them and try to get a sense what there what they feel capable of doing and what they’d like to be doing. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Sometimes it was a very simple matter of showing them that they were a little more capable than they thought they were. Not with any more training but by proving to them that they knew more about things than they give them credit.

Q. Yes.  And, so, um, you would take them from…in their neighborhood.  Did you ever, like, have a teaching environment that you would…or did you preview your routes or where they lived before you’d take them there?

A. Yeah, uh, yeah…usually I would and, uh, when I had a driver uh I would, have most of the time use him to help me scout the area and tell me what was around what was it like and usually he would walk the area with me.  Or, or a family member, if I could involve the family.

Q. Uh huh.

A. That's another thing I guess it made it more efficient the first few years teaching there was a lot more public transportation and I was a little less dependent on drivers and probably a little less efficient in time but I found it more satisfying and I thought that, I think it made a good impression on people.

Q. Yes.

A. I’d walk up to the door and they’d say, well, how did you get here?  I came on the bus.  And I walked from the bus station or took a cab or whatever.

Q. Yeah.  It was pretty good advertising.

A. Yeah, well heck anybody can be driven here in a car.

Q. Right.

A. Its different, why should I model myself after that.

Q. Right.  Well, that’s neat.  And, of course, according to their level and their ability, that’s how you would tailor your training…to their needs and their abilities.

A. Um hm.

Q. Well, that’s neat.  And the cane length…  How did you…Did you encourage other people to get folding canes when they came out?

A. Uh…

Q. …it seems to be sensitive to that.

A. Not necess…  In the beginning, no.  Not until they became pretty sturdy.

Q. Yeah.

A. Um, the earlier folding canes, I had a bunch of them all go out bent--bent, uh, I used some but I didn't recommend them to other people until they got mechanically pretty sound.  Um, length though, I would… It has changed I don't know quite what it was when I started working here or where but we usually measure the canes from about two inches above the elbow.

Q. Ah hah.  So, it was pretty short.

A. Yeah, yeah.  

Q. Ant that’s how long yours was for a while?

A. For a while, yeah.  And I, you know, I went, we started using longer canes, but you know I thought, well, I found it pretty good well longer to a point there are certain advantages to have it a little bit longer than that.

Q. Yeah.  Well, that’s neat.  [laugh]  Um, neat…  And, so, did you make your own canes?

A. No, uh, the…somebody in the agency where we got our central supplies made them for quite a while.  I think, I think, I’m not sure…I think they’re buying them now from other stores.

Q. Right.

A. But for a while, they made canes that were aluminum tubing and oh made a curve on the a handle and had no, no grip as such, no like a golf grip or whatever--they hadn't invented it yet.

Q. Oh, interesting.

A. And it had a wider tip than…looks kind of like the thing you’d find on the bottom of a chair leg, you know.

Q. Right…the metal glide.

A Yeah.

Q. Yeah.

A. Which was kind of force fit at the bottom of the cane they, they worked. They were, well they were ugly but

Q. [laugh]

A. They didn’t have Scotchlite tape on it you know…covering them.

Q. Yeah.  So, so, it’s been…it’s always been an improvement each time, it seems.

A. Yeah.

Q. Well, I lied…so I said we were done and we weren’t  [laugh]

A. Well, I like to chatter.

Q. I, I’m just learning so much and I do thank you for that.  And I’m going to give Berle a call.

A. OK.

Q. Thank you again and, uh, I hope everything goes well with you and, um, I’ll be in touch when this comes to light.

A. I’d like that.

Q. Great.  Neat.

A. Thanks very much and good luck to you.

Q. Thank you.  Bye.

A. Bye bye.

Transcribed by: Lenni

Transcription date: 1/17/01

Reviewed by: Ambrose

Review date: 4/3/01