Beatrice born mobility visually impaired in 1944, blind in 1956, first O&M lesson in 1960

    Beatrice weighed 2 pounds when was born into a family that already had four children. Her mom and dad didn’t have insurance and avoided hospitals. I don’t think my mother real…my mother or father realized how poor my vision was.  She remembered that she  was only able to see partially out of her right eye.  She didn’t realize how little sight she had until recently when she remembered how she used to cry as a little girl because she couldn’t answer the questions in school.  In the first grade, they’d have problems or something on the board and when they called on me, I'd just cry.  And it was just because I couldn’t see it. I just felt like, how come everybody can answer these questions and I can’t answer anything. And then they realized that I really couldn’t see.  
    Beatrice was first introduced to independent O&M when she was in high school. The goal was so that she could begin taking the bus to school. There appeared to be little understanding of what she may or may not have understood conceptually – O&M instruction in the 1960s was centered on methods designed to teach adults who had become blind, not those who grew up blind or mobility visually impaired. Beatrice had  good days and bad days dealing with the public and her family about her travel. That “horrible experience one time where the driver physically took her off the bus because he passed her stop and she had the temerity to point it out” and the bus driver who waved down a policeman who drove her across the street she didn’t feel confident crossing on her own. To her daughter who doesn’t want her to travel independently, but also doesn’t have the time to drive her. Beatrice reminds us that traveling as a blind person, there is a whole lot more to navigate than just stairs, doors, and street crossings there are the behaviors and attitudes of others.

Visit our website: Email: info@Safetoddles.org TikTok Facebook YouTube
Thanks for listening! Please, leave us a review, ask questions and share with your friends!!
Please donate to help Safe Toddles Inc. achieve our mission to provide blind toddlers with a solution for walking independently with safety.
If you know anyone who needs a belt cane - go to ObtainCane

Transcript

You can go where you want to, and you found you way here to the Safe Toddles podcast. I’m Dr. Grace Ambrose-Zaken your host. I have been teaching orientation and mobility to people of all ages and exceptionalities since 1991 and for 25 of those years I was also a professor of orientation and mobility teaching graduate students the art and science of travel when blind or mobility visually impaired. 

This year Safe Toddles’ podcast is sharing the over 100 interviews of employed adults who were blind or mobility visually impaired that I conducted between the years 1999 and 2001. We are counting forwards from the oldest to the youngest. This week is the interview I conducted with Beatrice Luckett on 11/21/99. 

Beatrice weighed 2 pounds when was born into a family that already had four children. Her mom and dad didn’t have insurance and avoided hospitals. I don’t think my mother real…my mother or father realized how poor my vision was.  She remembered that she  was only able to see partially out of her right eye.  She didn’t realize how little sight she had until recently when she remembered how she used to cry as a little girl because she couldn’t answer the questions in school.  In the first grade, they’d have problems or something on the board and when they called on me, I'd just cry.  And it was just because I couldn’t see it. I just felt like, how come everybody can answer these questions and I can’t answer anything. And then they realized that I really couldn’t see.  

Let’s begin

Q. Good.  All right.  Um, let’s just get going.  Could you state and spell your full name, please.

A. OK.  Beatrice Luckett.

Q. OK.  And what’s your date of birth?

A. 1944.

Q. OK.  And where were you born?

A. Detroit, Michigan.

Q. And where do you live now?

A. Detroit, Michigan.

Q. And what do you do for a living?

A. Well, right now, I’m a homemaker plus I transcribe medical reports for a doctor here at home.  I’m waiting on a letter from the city of Detroit letting me know whether I passed my typing test.  I took a test to get a job as a medical transcriptionist in the radiology department at our health, um…well, what we call…well, it’s Herman Kieffer Hospital.

Q. Uh huh.

A. A public health hospital.  And, I just got a letter, I guess about a month ago stating that I had passed the written test, which I took last year.  They’re just behind a little.  So, I guess I’ll find out whether or not I passed the typing test next year…if you know what I mean.

Q. Yeah.

A. But, as long as I’m keeping busy here, that’s the main object.  I’m still using my skills…I just don’t have to go outside to do it.  Which I miss…I miss being around the public.

Q. Yeah.  Um, where did you go to college.

A. I went to a medical secretarial school.   It was more of a vocational school here in Detroit back in the ‘60’s.

Q. Uh huh.  Is that after high school?

A. Yes.

Q. Um, and, um, how long have you had a vision impairment?

A. Most of my life.  I was born pre…as a preemie.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Weighing two pounds…

Q. Oh, my goodness.

A. …and if you saw me now, you’d say, what happened to you?

Q. Oh.  [laugh]

A. But, uh, they…back in the ’40’s, they didn’t, uh, understand…  It wasn’t documented that oxygen caused, uh, visual problems plus brain damage…

Q. Yeah.

A. …in infants.  And that’s what happened to me.  I’ve got a little brain damage, my husband says.

Q. Oh.  [laugh]  So, you are totally blind.

A. I’m totally blind.  I, uh…

Q. From the oxygen…

A. I lost my sight completely, I guess at about the age of twelve.  I was only able to see partially out of my right eye.  I didn’t realize how little sight I had until recently when I thought about how I used to cry as a little girl because I couldn’t answer the questions in school.  You know, like in the first grade, they’d have problems or something on the board and when they called on me, I'd just cry.  And it was just because I couldn’t see it.

Q. Oh, wow.

A. I just felt like, how come everybody can answer these questions and I can’t answer anything. And then they realized that I really couldn’t see.  I was in sight…I went to school and I was in a sight saving class back then.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And then they put me in Braille and I started excelling then.

Q. So, you were in a regular school…your neighborhood school?

A. Well, at first yes.  It was a neighborhood school, uh, when I was in kindergarten and first grade.  Then they realized that I had visual problems and I was in a school for…it was a regular public school but they had facilities for visually impaired.

Q. Uh huh.

A. They had large print and all.

Q. Right.

A. And I still couldn’t see it.

Q. Right.

A. So then I went to another school which was a regular public school but they had facilities for totally blind and that’s when I learned how to read Braille.  When I first visited the school, I saw these kids sitting there with these books…white color paper and their hands were just going across the pages and I’m, like, what are they doing?  And the teacher said, well, [as if teacher] you’ll learn how to do that.  But what are they doing?  They were reading.  I just couldn’t understand. So now I read Braille and do…I write it and everything.

Q. So, did your parents know before school started that you had a vision impairment?

A. I don’t think my mother real…my mother or father realized how poor my vision was.  Uh, then, let’s see…how many were…four, five of us…four of us and I don’t think my mother realized how the fact that I really could not see…I think she knew there was a problem, but, back then, you know, we had no insurance…my dad was working, but we really didn’t have…he really didn’t believe in hospitals.

Q. Um hm.

A. He was afraid of them.  So…but anyway.  I made it.

Q. So, you realized…when you first realized that you were visually impaired was in class.

A. I didn’t know what was going on.  You know, I’m a little kid.  I didn’t know what…I could see colors, I could see people.  Um, you know, I never really gave it much thought, but as I got older and I thought back on different situations, I realized that I really could not make out a face.  I could see what color you wore and everything.  A person’s form…but one day I was in a store…a neighborhood store…and this lady came in and spoke to me.  I knew it was either my mother or my aunt, but I couldn’t tell which one it was.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, you know…

Q. So, um, what were you doing in terms of playing and your memories of playing with your brothers and sisters…riding bikes…

A. Well, actually, I didn’t do much playing with my brothers and sisters.  We had…They…I think when they realized that…well, my oldest sister was sick.  She had rheumatic fever…

Q. Hm.

A. …so she was in and out of the hospital.  So there was really not much play there.  And I had an older brother…he was, I guess, about three years older than me.  We’d just run through the house like, you know, normal kids do and what not, but as far as play play, I wouldn’t say I did much of it.  Then I had four…three sisters…two sisters and two brothers under me.  They, uh…there was four years difference then me and my brother that’s under me.  As I got older, I kind of took them under my wing and used to read to them and help them with their homework, and stuff like that.  But, as far as play…no.

Q. When did you first learn to travel independent of another person.

A. Well, I was in junior high school…ah, seventh grade.  I had to catch DOT…well, it was called DSR…Detroit Rail and Street services, uh, back in the ‘50’s.  And, uh, they taught me…they tried to teach us how to use a cane back then.

Q. Oh.

A. So, it was, you know, and I’ve been going ever since.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I don’t go as much because, uh, with the right on red and there’s so much traffic…people don’t acknowledge a white cane any more.  I don’t do as much traveling as I used to.  A little bit of fear.

Q. Yeah.  Well, before you were…you got the cane travel, what would you do before that?  Did you travel by yourself?

A. Take the bus. Well, we had a school bus pick us up at our door and I’d go to school.  Then, like, for our activities…social activities, I’d, uh, sometimes…well, when I could no longer see to go places in the neighborhood, one of my sisters would maybe walk around to a friend’s house with me.  And then, as I got…when, um, uh, they finally gave me a cane, my mother made me go on my own because, she said, your sisters and brothers won’t always be here…

Q. Hm.

A. …to take you and I can’t do it.  So, I just started doing it myself.

Q. How did that make you feel?

A. I was…I really, really felt, um, like she was throwing me out in the river.

Q. [laugh]

A. I was really afraid…  As a matter of fact, um, when I started catching the bus to high school, I’ll say…the city bus to high school…  I had to go way on the east side…I lived on the west side of Detroit and I had to take two buses and when I first started doing it, my mother caught the bus with me and she would come back and meet me at the school and we’d come back on the bus.  But, you know, the finances were so low, she just didn’t have bus fare and one day I just got…  She was late in coming for me and I was scared.

Q. Yeah.

A. And I cried…she left me here.  But after that, I got on the bus myself.  I just met different students and, you know, we had to cross a busy street to get to the bus stop and, uh, uh, different students were willing to walk with us.

Q. Um hm.

A. So, I’ve been going ever since.

Q. So, with…that was with a cane?

A. Yes.

Q. And it was primarily you learned to use the cane so you could take the bus? You feel like.

A. Yes.

Q. And, before that you were always with…

A. Hold on.

Q. No problem.

A. OK.

Q. OK.  But before that, you were basically always with somebody. 

A. Yeah.

Q. Um, what…  Do you remember what method they used to teach you O&M?

A. Well, I’m going to tell you it was really weird.  Because I was in elementary school and they…  Was it elementary…going to junior high…when they gave us the cane.

Q. Twelve is probably junior high…twelve years old.

A. Yeah, um, they just had us walk down the hall with the cane and they said, when we get ready to cross, you lift your cane up.  Actually, they did not give us mobility training way back then.

Q. Uh huh.

A. They really didn’t.

Q. What did they do?

A. They just told us, when you get ready to cross the street, raise your cane up, letting them know you were…you wanted to cross, and that was it.

Q. So, no…  [laugh]

A. That we were crossing.  See, it was just a regular, a regular homeroom, if you will…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …teacher who gave us these canes.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And that was it.  Now, when I, uh, graduated from high school and was introduced to, um, like the services for the blind, they had mobility instructors then, but, actually, the training we got back then is nothing compared to what they’re doing now.  It’s so much better now.

Q. Yeah.

A. It is much, much, much, much better.

Q. So, you were…

A. They just didn’t…They’d have you get on the bus and say, well, I want to see how you travel.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Where do you want to go?  Or, I want you to go downtown.  So, they’d walk to the bus stop with us, we’d get on the bus, and then I’d get off the bus and, whoever the mobility instructor was, wouldn’t say anything he would just kind of watch me.  So, the training was terrible back then.

Q. So, just go someplace and I’ll watch you.

A. Yes.  And if you…if we seemed to be getting into trouble, then they’d kind of catch up to you and show you…  But as far as knowing the proper technique of using the cane, you know, I just really learned that the sweeping technique is the best technique now.  Before, they said you just kind of tap your cane on the pavement to hear for the sound and you could tell if you’re in an open area and something like that.  And that wasn’t much training then

Q. Um hm.

A. But, I went over to, what we called the University of Michigan Health Center…

Q. Um hm.

A. …here in Detroit for, it was like a little more vocational training and I wanted to learn to use the computer.  A couple of years I went over there and they had mobility training and Mr. Patton showed me better techniques of traveling.

Q. So, this is recently.

A. Yeah, just recently.

Q. So, what did you learn…

A. Actually, what I did before was just kind of what you call, uh, uh, ran my cane along the…  Like, if I were walking down a residential street…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …I’d follow along the lawn, pretty much.  Then sometime…I’d just or either just go across my body with the cane from left to right to make sure there’s nothing in front of me.  But this sweeping technique that Mr. Patton showed me a couple of years ago seemed to be the best that I’ve had in training.

Q. What’s a sweeping technique?

A. That you don’t lift your cane off the ground.

Q. Uh huh.

A. You just take your cane and you go from the right to left or left to right with that cane so you’re always going to come into contact with something there.  You know, if there’s something…an obstruction there, you will hit it.

Q. Right.

A. You don’t have to worry about, well, I was lifting my cane to go to the other side and I missed it.

Q. Was that happening a lot to you?

A. Not really.  Um um.

Q. But now it never happens?

A. Well, I haven’t had any incidents lately.

Q. Hm. So, so, after you got the cane around twelve, that’s when you started traveling by yourself?

A. About 14.

Q. Fourteen…and your family was basically supportive of that because it was necessary.

A. Right.

Q. And you use a cane now…

A. Um hm.

Q. How many different types of mobility tools have you tried in your life?

A. Excuse me, I just had to swallow some water.  Just the cane, that’s all.

Q. What kind of cane do you have?

A. The collapsible with the, um, with the, uh, I guess you’d call it the mushroom ball….

Q. Tip.

A. …the mushroom tip.

Q. Does it roll?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever tried one that rolls?

A. No.  I’ve never tried that.

Q. OK, so

A. ‘Cause I figure if I’m on the ice, I don’t want it to roll.

Q. On the ice.

A. [laugh]  Yeah.

Q. Right.  Um, so you’ve heard about them.  You just…

A. Yeah, I’ve seen them before.

Q. Uh huh.  Uh, um, how many canes do you own?

A. I have two.  I have a Sunday cane…I mean, a going out cane and a knock around cane.

Q. [laugh]

A. [laugh]

Q. So, the going out cane looks nicer and…

A. Yeah, it’s not all bent and scarred up and beat up…  [laugh]

Q. Uh huh.

A. You can tell I use this other one a lot.

Q. [laugh]  Where do you purchase your canes from?

A. Well, I got mine at the University Health Center when I was in training.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I got it free and we used to could trade canes in…just trade them in there at the same place.  Prior to that, we…a gentleman we knew made the canes and we’d purchased them from him.  He’s deceased now.

Q. Neat.  Oh.  So, you got a friend or a person that made canes for you?

A. Yes.  This gentleman was part of our bowling league…he was an elderly gentleman…he used to make them.

Q. Were they rigid or the?

A. No, they were collapsible.

Q. Interesting.  Um, you, now, tell me…you’ve taken buses your whole life.

A. Um hm.

Q. Have you developed any tips or strategies that you’d like to share with me that you used for, um, taking the bus?

A. Well, one thing I’ve learned to do is, uh, um…   Let me see…Most of the time, when you catch these buses, the best thing to do is, before you board the bus, ask if there’s anyone getting off.  Because, you know, sometimes we have a tendency when we hear that door open, just Beaugard and that’s wrong.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, you ask, is anyone getting off and sometimes the driver will say yes or no and sometimes an individual will say, I’m getting off, or maybe someone at the bus stop with you will say, hold on…someone’s getting off.

Q. Nice.  I like it.

A. And then, uh, we have to pay…  We just started paying fare about two or three years ago.  Before that, we were able to, um…we rode free.

Q. Hm.

A. But, uh, the best thing for a person to do, if possible, get someone to ride with you first to show you the fare box because there's three different compartments you can use. 

Q. Right.

A. You could use one for the ticket, one for the dollars, one for the silver.  And, you’d hate to get on and start fumbling around because the driver is really not supposed to take the money.

Q. Right.

A. Um hm.  And, uh, uh, having a pleasant attitude will help the driver be more willing to call your stop, too.

Q. Oh.

A. Because, if you get on the bus and say, call such and such and such…that driver might call it and he might not.

Q. [laugh]

A. And, uh, we should feel free to remind the driver…if it’s a long run…

Q. Um hm.

A. …you could say, like um, uh, let’s see…if you know a certain area that’s pretty close to where you’re getting off, you can ask the driver, are we close to such and such…

Q. Um hm.

A. …without saying, just coming out and blatantly saying, you haven’t passed my stop, have you?

Q. Right.

A. You know.

Q. That’s back to the attitudes…the phrasing of that.

A. Um hm.  So, your attitude will play a whole big role in whether you get off at the right stop or not.

Q. Yes.

A. Now, I had a horrible experience one time and I’m not a nasty person…I’m basically very congenial.  This particular day I was going to one of my friend’s house from work and I hadn’t ridden on this particular bus in years so I really was not familiar with any of the landmarks like the railroad tracks or this, that, and the other.  Well, as a matter of fact, the girl told me, if we cross the railroad tracks, I would have gone past the street.

Q. Right.

A. So, I got on the bus and asked the driver would he call my stop.  He said, yes.  He was talking to another passenger who was sitting by the door.  Uh, so, you know, I pleasantly, after a while, ooh, please don’t forget me…I’m not familiar with this area run.  [in a nasty tone] "I’ll let you know when you get to the stop".

Q. Hm.

A. So, we hit the railroad tracks. I’m like, oh, you passed my stop.  And he slammed on the brakes.  Come on…out.  I’ll take you across.  You can catch the bus over there.  I said, uh, sir, I can’t see at all.

Q. Oh, my.

A. I can’t see at all.  So, um, he got off the bus and he was just about dragging me.  I fell.

Q. Oh, my.

A. I mean, I was really, really, really upset…really, really, really upset at his attitude.  Now, I’ve had times when a driver might be talking to someone and whoever he’s talking to might remind him to call that stop.  

Q. Right.

A. I’ve had that happen.  So, but, that was my worst incident on the bus.

Q. So, that’s why…he just took you to the other bus stop and you had to get back on and go back.

A. Um hm.

Q. Have you ever gotten off at the wrong stop before…

A. Uh…

Q. …for whatever reason.

A. No.  It’s usually that the driver forgets to call it.  I’ve had this happen in my neighborhood.  I knew how to…I knew the area well enough to just walk back.

Q. Yeah.

A. Um hm.

Q. Um, what about taking taxis.  Do you have any strategies…

A. No, I really don’t have any strategies for that. You know it's. They usually…the drivers…the cab drivers, uh, know us and, uh, they pull up in our driveway or else we’ll tell them when we call for a taxi, uh, let the driver know that we’re blind.

Q. Um hm.

A. So, they’ll make sure they blow their horn or they’ll pull up in the driveway.

Q. Um hm.

A. And, it’s best, if you’re not familiar with the drivers, have single bills.

Q. Single dollars.

A. You just cannot trust people with your money.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Or, if the--have, have your money separated so that you’ll know exactly…you won’t have to wonder, well is this a five or is this a ten or whatever.

Q. So, be real clear for yourself…

A. Um hm.

A. …what bills you’re giving them.

Q. Have you ever been ripped off before?

A. No, I haven’t, but I know people…I know someone who was.

Q. Yeah.

A. Um Hm.

Q. Yeah.  Have you ever been disoriented?

A. Well, I tell you…one time…and I can’t…  Well, I’ll tell you what will happen.  If you’re crossing a busy street and someone starts honking the horn--that can throw you off.

Q. Uh huh.

A. That has thrown me off and I thought I was going straight across and I ended up going between…going parallel to the cars.

Q. Hm.

A. So, that kind of stopped me from crossing busy streets.

Q. Because the cars honked and you turned…

A. Yeah, and then, you’re like, am I doing something wrong?  And then, you know, I just get kind of turned around.

Q. Yeah.  So, what did you do when you found yourself…

A. Well, that happened…it just so happened that someone came and helped me.

Q. Yeah.

A. It’s always…It always seems that when I’m in trouble, there’s always somebody around…

Q. Oh, that’s nice.

A …who will help.

Q. That’s nice.  Uh, I imaging it gets pretty cold there in the wintertime.

A. Yup.

Q. Do you do anything special…any special precautions for travel?

A. Well, I tell you.  Know where you’re going, know how to…know your landmarks even if there’s snow.  You’ve got to because you don’t want to get stuck out wandering around in the snow and you don't know if there’s a fence supposed…uh, you can look for fences or trees or whatever.  You just should know where you’re going.

Q. Yeah.

A. And what's your surroundings are like.

Q. How are you able to keep your landmarks even in the snow?

A. Well, I tell you, it’s kind of rough, now.  Like, uh, I really don’t go too many places in the snow…

Q. Um hm.

A. …but, like, in my neighborhood, if I want to go around to the store…

Q. Um hm.

A …which is where I don’t have to cross any streets, but, at the corner…close to the corner, there’s a fence and I follow along that.  Well, we cross this alley and then there’s a fence that goes from the alley up to the sidewalk that, you know, that leads to the street.  So I, I look for that.

Q. Right.

A. But, before they built that fence…put that fence up, we were wandering around in this open lot.

Q. Oh, wow.

A. [laugh]  in the snow [light laugh] So, it’s really, really hard.  So, what we’ve done in our neighborhood, um, we have, uh, a snow removal service.  We’ve asked that, uh, if we could pay a little extra for them to clean that area up near the corner because we do walk back and forth to the store.

Q. Oh.

A. So, they’ve been doing that for us.

Q. Oh, well, that’s a neat idea. So, you were able to contact…is it a private company, or was it…

A. Well, yeah, the whole, like, this three-block area…we pay for services for snow removal…

Q. Um hm.

A. …and there’s a lot that…I mean, at the corner, that really no one owns.  So, since it’s to our advantage to have it, uh… the snow removed, we’re willing to pay a little extra for it.

Q. Neat.  Um, how do you feel about traveling alone to unfamiliar places?

A. I feel very uncomfortable.

Q. Yeah.

A. I really reel uncomfortable, um, because…well, when you can’t see anything, you’re just exposed to the elements, to everything.

Q. Yeah.

A. And, I’d rather not do it.  Our daughter just moved out a couple of months ago.  Both our children drive but our daughter has the car…our son doesn’t.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And there’s been times when I’ve said, I’m going to catch the bus to go this place or that place. [as if nice daughter] "Mom, you know I don’t want you catching the bus".  I have to do what I have to do.

Q. Yeah.

A. If you are too tired or you have to go to school after work, or whatever, what am I supposed to do?

Q. Right.

A. One day, I asked her about taking me ‘cause I have to deliver the work I do to the doctor’s office.  By bus I’d have to take two buses.

Q. Right.

A. In a car, it would only take about ten minutes.

Q. Oh.  Wow.

A. So, one day I asked her…she came by and I said, Dee, can you take me to drop the work off at Dr. Roy’s. [as if the daughter]You know I have to go to school.  I said, OK, well, drop me off at the bus stop. [as if the daughter] You know I don’t like you catching the bus.  Well, what am I supposed to do? [as if the daughter] Well, do you have to go today?  Yes. [as if the daughter] Well, let me call one of our neighbors and see if she’ll take you.  She couldn’t take me.  So, she, my daughter, ended up taking me anyway.

Q. Yeah.

A. But, see, I have no problem catching the bus going where I know.

Q. Yeah.

A. Going to an area I know about.  I don’t mind asking for help.

Q. Uh huh.

A. ‘Cause, like, when I have to take the bus from here to, ah, the doctor’s office, I have to cross Woodward Avenue and where I have to cross, it’s really, really terrible.  I wouldn’t try crossing by myself, so I asked a driver one time if he’d walk across with me.  He says, well, I’m behind time…behind schedule, but I’ll, um, make sure you are assisted.  So he got off the bus and the next thing I know, he says I got a city employee to help you…it was a police officer.

Q. Oh wow.

A. They just put me in the scout car and drove me across the street.

Q. [laugh]

A. [laugh]  So…

Q. Yeah.

A. …I don’t mind asking for help.

Q. Well, how will you…how do you prepare if you’re going to travel to an unfamiliar place?

A. Well, I’m trying to think.  Now, I’ll tell you what I did do.  I had to go to for an appointment downtown and…  I’ve actually had my father-in-law drive me down there and show me different landmarks to look for.

Q. Like what?

A. Like, what’s at the corner of the particular street I’m going to get off…  You know, if there’s a telephone pole or, um, a gas station or a planter…you know…

Q. Um hm.

A. …something like that.  Show me how to get to the building I’m going to.

Q. So, he’s taking you to where the bus stops?

A. Yeah.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And then we’d just walk around that area and show me different things to look for.

Q. Neat.

A. Um hm.  Now we have a lazy way…

Q. [laugh]

A. …and a good way to…  We have paratransit.

Q. Oh.

A. They pick you up at your door and take you to where you’re going.  Now, um, they, they can pick you up and bring you back home but it has to be after a two-hour period of time.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Now, I had to go for a mammogram a few weeks ago and I knew it would only take about 20 minutes, so I wasn’t about to wait two hours for them to come back and pick me up.

Q. Right.

A. So, I found out my…about my surroundings…  As a matter of fact, the first time I went down there, my daughter took me and I walked around and she showed me some things.  Then, um, when I went on my own, I took the paratransit bus there, but, then, I caught the city bus back home and I knew where the bus stop was.

Q. Excellent.

A. But I found out if you ride the paratransit and never let them know that you’re catching the city bus.

Q. Oh.

A. [laugh] ‘Cause they’re going to tell you, if you can catch the city bus going home, you can catch it going to the other way, you know.

Q. Oh.

A. You don’t need their services.

Q. Oh, gosh.  That doesn’t seem right.

A. Well, they say, you know, why should they pick you up at your door if you have traveling skills?

Q. So, just don’t tell them.  [laugh]

A. And, you know, it was really nice…   One of the employees who worked for paratransit told me that.

Q. He said, don’t say anything?

A. Yes.  She said, never say-- 

Q. Wow.

A. …that you’re going to catch the city bus.

Q. Wow.  Um, how, how do you know where you are?  What sorts of things do you use to say, I know I’m here because…

A. Well, OK…  I used to catch the bus to work.  Um, well, even just walking down the street coming home…  I’ll use that for an example.

Q. Um hm.

A. There’s a rise in the sidewalk I look for and there’s a tree I look for.

Q. Um hm.

A. Then I know…  I look for the, the, uh, walkways.  I don’t count them, but I know when I get, uh…  I just use judgment.  And the, I know, I know I’m pretty close to this broken sidewalk and my house is two houses from that.

Q. Yeah.

A. OK I do that.  Then, like, if I’m…when I was working, uh, there…  Well, usually there’s gravel on the…close to your turn-up…you know the entrance of the hospital where I was going…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …there was gravel or, uh, in the summertime, uh…  Was it the gravel?  In one area it was.  And then they’d have the water sprinkler.  And another, oh…

Q. So, it’d be wet there?  Or you’d get wet?

A. Yes.  Well, this particular kind was underground…sprinklers.

Q. Uh huh.

A. So, I wouldn’t get wet.  I’d hear it.

Q. You’d hear it.

A. Um hm.

Q. Yeah.

A. Um hm.  Let’s see…  When I’d go around to the store here, it’s almost at the corner.  I kind of follow along the building.

Q. Uh huh.

A. And I listen for the open sound.  When I get to the opening, I know there is a store.

Q. Neat.

A. And there’s my daughter.  She pulls up in the driveway and honks her horn.

Q. Oh, oh…I have a couple more questions.  Can we continue?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Oh Great.  Um, have you used or do you use maps?

A. I never used a map.

Q. Uh huh.

A. As a matter of fact, Mr. Patton, the mobility instructor, was trying to teach us how to tell which direction we were going in when walking by the sun and I can’t remember the things he told me.

Q. Yeah.  It just wasn’t making sense to you.

A. [aside to family member]  OK.  All right, I’m back.

Q. OK Um, so you…he was trying to get you to use, what, north, south, east, and west?

A. Right.  Um hm.

Q. That just wasn’t working…

A. Well, I know north, south, east, and west but, if, let’s say, we were, uh…we’d go out of town and someone would drop me off and say, now, which direction are you facing?  I couldn’t say, ‘cause I don’t remember what he said about the sun.

Q. Right.

A. You know [laugh]? But I think that is a very important thing to teach.

Q. So, you enjoyed, sort of, talking about the sun, but it’s not something you have been using all along.

A. I never used that.  But, it’s very important, though.

Q. Why is that?

A. It’s important to you know, like a young person…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …if you are teaching elementary student children mobility, it’s best to start young.

Q. Yeah.

A. Because you get into bad habits otherwise.  And, if you've learned about the north, south, east, and west and how you can tell which direction you’re going in by the sun, it, it’s very helpful.

Q. Yeah.  What one thing that happens frequently when you’re traveling that you like the least?

A. The…what I…  Um, the traffic…  People have a tendency to, when they, uh, uh, they go past the walkway…

Q. Yeah.

A. …you know, the intersection.  And you want to…you don’t want to walk, uh…have people think you’re drunk because you’re walking, you're walking--bam.

Q. [laugh]

A. …I mean, you don’t want to just toddle along, you want to get out and pick them up and put them down.  But drivers have no consideration for a white cane and, from what I hear, they don’t have much consideration for a Leader Dog.

Q. Um.

A. I mean, the drivers are just very, very inconsiderate…

Q. Yeah.

A. …in this city.

Q. Yeah.

A. It’s just ridiculous.

Q. So, you’re standing on the corner and they should really pull to where they’re supposed to be and not in the crosswalk.

A. Right.

Q. Right.

A. And then, well, they’ll sit and maybe blow their horn at you, like, come across, will you?

Q. Oh.

A. They’re saying, come across or don’t come.

Q. So, you’re on the corner and then people honk at you, trying to get you to cross?

A. Sometimes they will.  You see, if I walk up to a corner and I’m not sure if that light had just changed, I’ll stand there and wait for it to change.

Q. Sure.  So, they have really no business to tell you…

A. Right.

Q. ..[laugh]  what to do.

A. Right.  But they’re trying to be helpful.

Q. Yeah. Yeah. Um…

A. And one other thing that’s really terrible…  Uh, and, and a blind person has to be careful how they react to someone who’s helping them.  People have a tendency to grab you up under your arm and lift you up, trying to help you on the bus  [laugh].

Q. Oh, my.

A. You know, stuff like that.  But, you can really smile and say, uh, uh, thank you, but I can make it.

Q. Yeah.

A. But, say it with a smile.  Don’t jerk away from a person.  We had an incident…actually, I was going to high school, and, uh, we’d have to cross Seven Mile Road…there was not a light there.  The drivers used to get off and help us across, but this one girl came to school later than we did and, uh the driver…  Well, anyway, this one drive was telling me that he tried to help her and she said, don’t put your hands on me.  She was real nasty.

Q. Yeah.

A. So, he said, he knew she needed help but, if none of the students helped her, she was just in trouble.

Q. Wow.

A. So, your attitude plays a big role in whether you are able to get help out there on the streets, which you will need.  I don’t care how well you travel, you’re going to need somebody’s help.

Q. Yeah. What do you want sighted pedestrians to do when they want to help?

A. Uh, ask me.

Q. Um hm.

A. If, uh, they could help me or if I need assistance.  Not just come up and grab me.

Q. Yeah.  Yeah.  ‘Cause that happened, then, you said…like getting on a bus, but also, what…standing on a street corner?

A. Yeah.  They should ask. They really should ask if you need assistance.

Q. How do you handle being lost or disoriented?

A. [laugh]  Just stand still and cry.

Q. [laugh] Oh.

A. [laugh]

Q. Does that work for you?  [laugh]

A. No…really, uh, what I have done is…  I’ll just stand there, collect my thoughts…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …listen for sounds, listen for traffic, and…  nine times out of ten, someone will come and help me.

Q. Yes.

A. But you can’t fall apart.

Q. Yeah.

A. You’ve got to keep your composure…try to, anyway.

Q. Yeah.

A. One thing people need help in doing in traveling is crossing railroad tracks.

Q. Oh.  So, what do you…

A. Walking across the railroad tracks.

Q. What do you do?  You’re really going to go with somebody always.

A. That would be best too.  One time, I was put off the bus…we…I had to cross, uh, cross a railroad track to get back to where I was to go…I wanted to go…and I had never walked across a railroad track by myself.

Q. Hm.  So, what’d you do?

A. Well, I just inched along and made it and hoped and prayed no trains…

Q. Oy Ai ai..

A. would come.  [laugh]  It was terrible.

Q. Did you get stuck at all?

A. No, I didn’t get stuck, but, see, if, uh, uh, a person really…  That’s just a bad situation.

Q. Yeah.

A. It’s a real bad one, because if you don’t know how close those tracks are…

Q. Right.

A. …you know, it’s bad.

Q. Yeah.

A. It’s frightening.

Q. Yeah.

A. Even crossing the overpass on the expressway…

Q. Yeah.

A. …uh, uh, a person needs to know about the grates on the walkway.

Q. Oh, sure.

A. Where the holes are, you could drop your cane and toe down in there…your cane could slip out of your hand.  But, a lot of these, uh, overpasses have…  I follow along the fence or either the, uh, uh, cement wall.

Q. So, you tap the wall and…

[side B]

A …because it’s usually waist high.

Q. So, OK.  So, you’ll have one hand on the wall…

A. Um hm.

Q. …and the other hand doing a cane.

A. Yes.

Q. And, what do you do about the grates?  Do you just…

A. Well, I just know…I just make sure I hold onto my cane.

Q. Yeah.  ‘Cause you’re expecting them…  So, you’re sort of trying to do it lighter, or…

A. Um hm.

Q. Wow.  That…  What’s that feel like upon on that…

A. Whoo.

Q. [laugh]

A. I tell ya it used to be really, really frightening.

Q. Sure.

A. You know, the first time I went across one, I was with a friend and, I was a teenager…and we walked across and I was petrified.  I mean, she could see, but I had never walked across a overpass before.

Q. The traffic just flies across there, too.  And then there’s traffic below.

A. Yeah.  I’m talking about, really, the sounds below.  That’s what I really…  You know, the first time I ever went across…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …it, it…  I was afraid.  Am I supposed…

Q. Sure.

A. …to…you know.

Q. Yeah.  Sure.

A. Are you going to be training youngsters, or?

Q. I train mobility instructors.

A. Oh.

Q. Yeah, at Hunter College in New York.

A. Oh, OK.

Q. And I’m going to be writing a book.

A. OK.

Q. Just a couple more…I swear, I’m almost finished.  [laugh]

A. It’s OK.  My daughter can wait.

Q. You’ve been so patient.  Um, have you ever been injured when traveling?

A. Well, I was never hit by a car.

Q. That’s nice.

A. But, getting off the bus, I was flirting and I stepped off the bus and twisted my ankle.

Q. Oh, so, your attention was elsewhere?

A. Yes.

Q. [laugh]  Ay ay ay.  Did you have to go to the hospital?

A. Well, he…the driver was going to take me to the hospital and I said, no, I could make it.  I had gotten off to pick my son up from the daycare center and, I…you know, we had to walk home…three blocks.  I figured all this pain would go away.  By the time I got home, that ankle was swollen so badly…

Q. Oh, that…

A. …I had to…I went to work the next day and they put me in a soft walking cast.

Q. Ay ay ay.

A. Another time, I was out there, um, I was on my way to work.  This gentleman…he asked me if I needed help and I told him, no.  Fortunately, I have dreams…premonitions of things that are going to happen to me…

Q. Uh huh.

A. …so it didn’t freak me out.  He came across anyway to help me and, uh, I talked, you know.  And he asked me if I wanted to make some money.

Q. Oh, my goodness.

A. And I told him, I make money every day.

Q. Ay ay ay.

A. And so, he’s walking along and he decides he want to put his hands on my behind.

Q. Ay ay ay.

A. I stated walking really fast.  When things like that happen…you talk about disoriented…off balance, everything…

Q. Yeah.

A. …[not kind a] surroundings.  And I turned up in that hospital area, flew up those steps, and the guard was sitting on the inside and I told him what happened.  He ran out and he saw the man.

Q. Good.

A. And then they had the police patrolling the area.  As a matter of fact, they started meeting me at the bus stop.

Q. Wow.

A. And, another time, I was walking down the same street.  This guy comes up to me.  Hi.  I said, good morning.  The next thing I knew, my purse was gone.  He had cut it off my arm.

Q. Oh, wow.

A. Cut the strap.

Q. Oh…so polite.

A. Polite…he spoke to me.  [laugh]

Q. Oh.  You’ve spent enough days out there doing it and things are likely to happen.

A. Um hm.  But I had to keep on going.  I couldn’t stop. 

Q. I bet you were scared.

A. I was. I really was.

Q. Yeah.  So, he just cut the strap.

A. Um hm.

Q. Did he have to tug it?

A. No…I mean, he spoke…  He had a knife in his hand evidently and he just took it and went through.

Q. Wow.

A. You know, I had it on my arm.  One of those Coach purses.

Q. Yeah.  Oh, man.  So, when did you know it was gone…almost immediately?

A. Almost immediately.

Q. Yeah.

A. Ah, my purse is gone, you know.

Q. Hm.

A. But I got all my ID back.

Q. Oh, good.

A. Um hm.

Q. What, did he mail it back to you?

A. Somebody mailed it back to me.

Q. That’s good.  Do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations?

A. What?

Q. Do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations?

A. Well…  [aside to family]  Um, I belong to [aside to family] I belong to, uh, um, a bowling league here in Detroit.

Q. Um hm.

A. And I used to belong to the Detroit, uh, um, what was it called…not the Federation, but it was uh…

Q. Council?

A. Yeah, I used to belong there.  I haven’t uh, uh, gone to any of the meetings lately because we weren’t doing anything, really, so I stopped going.

Q. Yeah.

A. And I belong to a church.

Q. Uh huh.

A. We have a Bible study here at our house once a week.

Q. Nice.

A. And, I crochet when I have time, now.

Q. [laugh]  When you’re not on the computer.

A. Um hm.

Q. How did ADA impact you?  Did you notice a difference before and after its passage?

A. Not really.

Q. No.

A. Only thing is, I noticed in fixing the streets, that sloping that the ADA had something to do with them fixing the curbs for the wheelchairs.

Q. Right.

A. I don’t like that.

Q. Right.

A. ‘Cause, uh, I’m out in the street before I know it.

Q. Oh, gosh.  When you went back for more mobility, did you guys talk about strategies for detecting those wheelchair ramps?

A. I can’t recall too much of it.  Um, um, Mr. Patton said, just, when you…  Well, we basically know when you’re, ah, getting to the street and it will slope and it just kind of…nine times out of ten, there is an area of a lawn or something right to your right or left of the slope.

Q. Right.

A. …with a little curb.  There’s still a little curb.

Q. So, do you try to find the curb?

A. Um hm..

Q. Um hm.

A. Yeah, to make sure I’m lined up…

Q. Neat.

A. But, I don’t do that much traveling by myself anymore…not that much.

Q. Uh huh.  Well, that’s the interview. Thank you very much.

A. OK.  I hope I helped you a little.

Q. You certainly did; you really did.  I do appreciate it.

A. OK.

Q. It was terrific.

A. Good luck with your book.

Q. Thank you.

A. Will you have it written in Braille, too?

Q. Absolutely.

A. OK.

Q. Oh, yeah.

A. I’m serious.

Q. I am, too.  No other way about it.

A. OK.

Q. Thanks a lot.

Beatrice was first introduced to independent O&M when she was in high school. The goal was so that she could begin taking the bus to school. There appeared to be little understanding of what she may or may not have understood conceptually – O&M instruction in the 1960s was centered on methods designed to teach adults who had become blind, not those who grew up blind or mobility visually impaired. Beatrice had  good days and bad days dealing with the public and her family about her travel. That “horrible experience one time where the driver physically took her off the bus because he passed her stop and she had the temerity to point it out” and the bus driver who waved down a policeman who drove her across the street she didn’t feel confident crossing on her own. To her daughter who doesn’t want her to travel independently, but also doesn’t have the time to drive her. Beatrice demonstrates that traveling as a blind person, there is a whole lot more to navigate than just stairs, doors, and street crossings there are the behaviors and attitudes of others.

Interviewed by:         Grace Ambrose

Interview date:          11/21/99

Transcription             Lenni

Transcription Date:  3/03/01

Reviewed by:            Grace Ambrose

Review date:             10/10/2001