Don McBride born 1936 became blind at age 11, O&M instructor before it was a grad degree. Part II

In every accomplishment – the O&M instructor in me wishes more value had been placed on his safety.  His life is filled with accomplishments and yet- all I can hear is just how freakin’ hard it has been for him to get around safely and he blames himself – not the inferior tools he’s been provided… He taught orientation and mobility (O&M) too – learn more about that in Part II.

Don McBride Recorded 8/28/99

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Transcript

Q. Have you ever used tactile maps or auditory maps?

A. Very little. Very little. I have seen them. Of course as you know by that I have felt them.

Q. Uh hm.

A. I have been in sessions where an O&M person would instruct me through a fairly complicated area and ask me to draw a map according to it. Or vice a versa he would give me of the tactile map, lets see you go through this. But I have a not used those a lot.

Q. Have you found them useful then, not really? Does it help sort of put things in perspective? 

A. I don’t get it..?

Q. Was it useful when?

A. I find that tactile maps help. I could use them I just haven’t had a lot of experience with them.

Q. When I was talking to Alvin, he told me that you and he used to do some mobility instruction yourself? 

A. Yeah.

Q. So were you trained to do that or how did you get started doing that?

A. Well back in the old days, ( laugh) back in the sixties,

Q uh huh.

A. most states did not have orientation mobility instructors. So that was the rehab teacher’s job. And I’ve already told you how rustic my training was but by that time I had graduated to the long cane. 

Q. Right. 

A. OK? 

Q. Yeah.

A. By that time, my supervisor said slow it up, be graceful, like you’ve got a million bucks, right? So all I can tell you is yeah, I’ve read manuals about  the right way to hold the cane and some of the techniques. I’ve taught that. And when I was teaching somebody to cross a busy street,

Q. Uh huh.

A. I always had a driver or a friend to be on hand to serve the purpose of the police from flanking me…

Q. Ahh.

A. to make sure that the client especially, but both of us didn’t get killed.

Q. Right.

A. Sometimes the client knew it and sometimes they didn’t. But that’s all that was back then. Until you learned to do with what you have.

Q. Well what did you tell the driver, that sighted person did you tell them to only to intervene when it was--

A. …when life and limb was in danger. 

Q. uh huh.

A. Within in the past couple of years or maybe less I walked from town to home which was little over a mile with a newly blinded person who had had O&M instruction, 

Q. Uh huh.

A. but he wanted to do it with a real live blind person. He still wasn’t  sure that it was a reasonable thing to do. 

Q. Oh.

A. You know. We stopped and would talk about what we’re hearing and where we were in relationship to other things and we crossed the busy street. But, I was not only with him but I was a little ahead of him and all the way home we had about 10 streets to cross but only one was one to worry about, no light and a highway through town. But I would walk in front of him, you know, 10 feet. So if I was, if something was on the sidewalk I’d get it first. If the limb would slap me in the face. I’d get it first. 

Q. I see.

A. That’s how I usually did that. When crossing the non-busy streets I               would have him stay on the curb until I got across and I’d say can you hear where I am? He’d say, “yes sir.” I’d say walk right towards my voice 

Q. Uh huh.

A. and then I might have him to do it without that. Do it alone. 

Q. Uh hmm.

A. But I’ve done that a few times in recent years. And sometimes I’d check his.. the way he was holding his cane. Doing this and that. I even had one guy to tell me 25 years ago…, I had done some walking like that with him. And his mother had seen me around about town doing things and he really this meant this. This wasn’t just a slap. He honestly meant it. He said, “you know, Mr. McBride you’re crazy”, I said, oh yeah how’s that? He said “nobody in their right mind would walk from this parking lot of Schwarz drugstore out onto Hillsboro street up to Main street and down St. Louis street to home, a mile if you cant see” He said, “you can’t, you can’t be square in your head and pull that off” and as I say this wasn’t meant as a friendly jab this guy really, really felt that way.

Q. oh my. So, did you sway him, did he finally? 

A.  No. no. no. The nearest thing to swaying him I ever really did when I first began working with him he lived in a farm about 25 miles from here. He was a recluse, he lost his vision and moved back home. He was about 26 or 7 and sometimes he would close himself in his room and have little to do with anybody. Parents or anybody else, and you know he’d cuss me out, and thrown me out you know I’d tried to teach him some braille or typing or crafts or counseling with him. But if you’d talk with that fella right now, at least the last time I talked to him and many times before that. He swears I’m his savior. 

Q. Oh my.

A. Yeah, I‘m the one that inspired him to move back away from home, 

Q. Wonderful.

A. to live away on his own to, to acquire a girlfriend. 

Q. Laugh.

A. You know all of that kind of stuff. So you know really I didn’t do that much except put up with a  lot of shit, and be long suffering and served as an example. 

Q. Right.

A. One time I had a young guy and he was shot, totally blinded, about 23 and within 2 months of the accident of becoming totally blind I had his father to leave him off at my house when the father was on his way to work six 6.30 in the morning. And I had instructed my family I said now tomorrow morning Paul’s going to be here and everybody stay out of the kitchen. I’m making breakfast. 

Q. Uh hm.

A. Which I do sometimes anyway ok? 

Q. Yeah.

A. And Paul didn’t do anything but sit there in the chair and I made coffee and poured it and fixed the breakfast. I don’t really remember what it was. But, it probably was scrambled eggs and green peppers and onions and cheese and you know that kind of stuff. 

Q. uh hm.

A. it wasn’t a bowl of cold cereal. 

Q. Right. 

A. All I did was just  shoot the breeze, but he was aware that I was doing this and that was the whole point of it . 

Q. Right.

A. This was not an official state meeting. This was not a lesson. This was just he stopped to visit me at my house. It might have been even a Saturday. But, it might not have been. He had after that, he had training at a training center. He had lot of training from me, and so on and so. But that’s what got him off of dead center. 

Q. Hm.

A. Here’s a guy, and I don’t mean to drive this too, too hard. But here’s a guy that’s got a family , that’s got a wife, that’s making love and raising kids and is fixing meals and going to work surely to god there‘s a little bit of this in life for me too. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Which there was in that case. 

Q. Absolutely.

A. Paul lived has lived in Carbondale. That’s about 100 miles from where I sit and he’s been married for a lot of years and has a kid and so on.  

Q. Wonderful.

A. So you win some and you lose some. but I like to think I helped win a lot more than I’ve lost.

Q. What, did you ever teach someone with low vision to travel?

A. Somebody with what?

Q. Low vision, who could see but had some—

A. Oh I see. Very little that depends how low you’re talking about, but no you see that’s something else that there was a major change during my work life. I hate to be so damn old. 

Q. Laugh.

A. But that’s the way it is. When I came to work here in 63’, everything was aimed at teaching people to function as blind people. 

Q. I see.

A. and if you could see a little bit, you still learned to function as a blind person. 

Q. Right.

A. You still ought to learn braille, and you still ought to learn to use a cane whether you need  to or not 

Q. Right.

A. so, that’s how it was. Now, long in the 70’s this low vision movement came into being and a lot more emphasis was placed on learn to use what vision you have, get some optical aid that’ll help you see a little more. 

Q. Right.

A. And use print if you can. Braille is not for everybody. And uh a cane is not for everybody. So the whole flavor of the blindness adjustment movement you know changed a lot. All the way from being pretty well blind oriented, to being more low vision or sighted oriented and maybe a blending of the two. I was with a fella that is an advanced RP guy about 60 just last week and I knew him 25 years ago. 

Q. Oh my.

A. When he could drive a truck and worked for the city and for all practical purposes was a seeing person. Over that 25 years, he can see light now. And Maybe he’ll see an object but he won’t know if it’s a tree or a person. That’s how blind he is. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. He has a cane or two, but he’s never had professional O&M help. He has a tremendous lot of skills , he’s a musician, plays the guitar, and the mandolin, the banjo real well, by ear of course. He can fix motors really good with his hands. lawnmowers this and that. A very personable sort of guy and my wife and I and another couple and this guy and his lady friend and I say it that way because both of their spouses are dead. It’s convenient for them to live there together. 

Q. Uh hm.

A. We all went out to eat, right? And I casually noticed that old jack was not carrying a cane. Now I don’t leave my yard without a cane.

Q. Right.

A. …and lady I don’t care if there’s five O&M instructors, 3 policeman or who all.

Q. laugh.

A.  I do not leave my yard without my cane, I don’t do it. 

Q. Absolutely.

A. Now Jack would say “well what do I need my cane for? I have Shirley and I don’t really go anywhere without her or without somebody and after all we’re going to ride in the car for over 20 miles to this place to eat, and I’ll have a hold of her arm.” but see it doesn’t matter how many arms I‘ve got to get a hold of, I want to be identified for who I am. I’m a blink. 

Q. Yeah.

A. That might get me out of trouble, 

Q. Yeah.

A. you know I might reach out and grab the wrong thing. 

Q. Right (laugh). 

A. But you know, 

Q. Exactly.

A. …on the one hand I would tend to be critical of Jack and on the other hand I’m not sure that my criticism is justified. I don’t know that what’s good for me is necessarily good for Jack. 

Q. Hmm.

A. You know it might it embarrass his lady friend, it might make him feel embarrassed. 

Q. Uh hmm.

A. But he’d get used to it after a while and she would get used it too. It might be just being around me. Just a little bit, it might help him get to that point or… if he had enough bad experiences by not having a cane,

Q. Right.

A. …he might come around to it. One thing a person all of us need to do is to become more able to laugh or be able to see the humor. In some of the social errors that we might make that we wouldn’t otherwise make. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I could spend 2 hours telling those kind of stories, too. If I let it I’d stick my head in the corner and I have cried and I would have stayed there. 

Q. Yeah.

A. But I learned somewhere along the way to see the humor and smile about it and get out of the corner and keep on going.

Q. Yeah.

A. I’ll just tell you one other story.

Q. Neat.

A. When we first  moved to Illinois in the winter 1963. Snow on the ground. I saw more snow that winter than I’ve ever seen in my whole life.  

Q. hmmm.

A. We got in Melville and it’s a town about 25 miles south of here on a Friday and I was supposed to start work on a Monday. I knew exactly as much about the area as I know about the place you live in—nothing--ok?

Q. Laugh, OK.

A. I learned that two doors down is a captain in the airforce, there’s an airforce base near that town and so he’s a pilot. So I figured he’s probably a pretty smart guy. So they came up and made their acquaintance with us. They had a couple kids. I said Mr. Sibert do you suppose sometime between now and Monday you’d have time to walk me to the nearest bus stop? “why yeah” I mean, who in the hell would say no to a blind guy alright? 

Q. Right.

A. “Sure I’d be glad to”. Now, I had a wife, a baby that was a year old, and another baby that was two years old. It wasn’t practical for me to use her.

Q. Right.

A. I didn’t want to get the babies out and I sure as hell wasn’t going to leave them alone right. He said well will you come on down to my place Sunday morning about 10.30 and we’ll have a cup of coffee and we’ll talk a little bit and I’ll show you exactly where to go. So when leaving his house I’d gone in the back door. We went out the front door and probably I told hold of his shoulder or his arm. 

Q. Uh hm.

A. But if I did I probably had to teach him that. 

Q. Uh hm.

Walking to the kitchen we crossed the living room which had a real thick carpet on it. His very gracious, wonderful wife was following us across there out the door. But I didn’t hear her doing this and I was probably concentrating on what he was doing and he wasn’t doing a real good job at it at that. But we stepped out the door and so I reached back to shut door.  

Q. Right.

A. When you’re going to shut the door you’re going to clutch it, not just touch it and I grabbed the wrong knob.

Q. oh gosh.

A. I clutched it. I’m fairly young and I was terribly, terribly embarrassed. Here this wonderful man is helping me and I’m playing with his wife’s boobs right in front of him. 

Q. Laugh.

A. Even though I’ve been blind quite a while. I never quite had that same experience.

Q. Oh.

A. And somehow, I got through it. I said ohhh I’m very sorry. But it really cut me. 

Q. Yeah.

A. It really hurt me. Well he showed me where the bust stop was. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I got home and I told my wonderful wife about this and she said “accident hell! 

Q. Laugh.

A. …“ and that helped me see the amusement, the humor in it. You know?

Q. Yeah. 

A. Now as an older person I would have still apologize, in that situation, but if I knew the person at all I would probably say thank you, I enjoyed that a lot. 

Q. Yeah. Make a joke out of it.

A. So I would no sooner have said that 40 years ago I’d have thought that would have been the most crude awful thing to say in the world. But I’ve learned to be lighter about it.

Q. I want to come back to you being a mobility instructor. Did you preview routes before you taught your students? Did you go out there and check them out? 

A. oh yeah….yes ma’am. I did that probably because I was afraid not to. 

Q. Sure.

A. (laugh) But whether it was going from the house to the barn, or the house to the outhouse or to the cow gate, or down a street. Yeah, I made sure that I could do it first. 

Q. Uh hmm.

A. And did it first.

Q. Do you know what a drop-off lesson is? 

A. Yeah where you take a person and then drop him off at a certain place and say I’ll see you at a certain place.

Q. Right, did you do any of those?

A. I’m not too sure if I did or not. If I did though I once again, I had someone who could see to observe. To drive along in a car 

Q. Uh huh.

A. or watch or walk along or walk close by. 

Q. Neat.

A. I’d probably have. But I never really thought of it as a drop off thing.

Q. uh huh.

A. As soon as the O&M people came on the scene in the late 60’s, early 70’s we started doing a lot less of this. First of all, we were told to. But most of us that had any sense knew that is was for the good of everybody. 

Q. Oh interesting.

A. See. Now as I told you in the past year or two even after some O&M instruction I’ve been out with people because they wanted to see a real, live blind person do it.

Q. Right and that’s neat that you’re still out there--How can you tell that a student is getting better, is doing well? What are some of the things that help you know that? To sort of chart the progress of your student? 

A. Well I might check their hand position.

Q. Sort of hand over hand checking?

A. Yeah, that or I might be asking them, now you hear that car can you tell me where that car is? 

Q. uh hmm.

A. What Street that’s on. Let’s see. A good example, there was a young blind guy, I remember not too long ago, 5 years ago or so that had, once again, he had had a lot of O&M help. But he had never really been around a true blue adult blind person. 

Q. Right.

A. And the O&M person arranged for this fella to come to my home and meet me and to go to a Lion’s club meeting with me. 

Q. Uh hmm.

A. Which I mean there was a hell of a lot here, eating out, club meeting and but we also walk down street and back. And I tell him the name of the street as we got on the street. There was sidewalks all but a half a block. The route was very simple it was out the back door to the alley and then down the alley to a street and turned right. Very quiet street, go to the corner and turn left and we had sidewalks the rest of the way. Right?

 Q. Right.

A. We only walked 2 or 3 blocks. And I was quizzing this kid just to find out whether he can see or not see. When he veered, this guy was a total. He was doing pretty good about where the cars were and all. 

Q. Neat.

A. But you know, I asked him to take me back home and he couldn’t do it, 

Q. I see.

A. couldn’t do it. It was just 3 turns and the last turn was in to the back yard. 

Q. Right.

A. and I was a little disappointed that the O&M help was not as advanced as they thought, as they led me to believe it was.

Q. mm hmm.

A. But hey this was a kid 14 ,15 years old and probably by my standards were a little bit high. 

Q. Well I don’t know I mean if you were told he should have a skill and then given the opportunity… he didn’t do it, I’d have been disappointed too. So did you instruct him what did you do at that point? Did you give him some?

A. No, I only saw that kid twice in my whole life. He’s in college now. I guess some of the really good thing that may have come of it was just being around a blind person 

Q. yeah.

A. that was a spouse and a father and went to meetings in the community. I did arrange for him to give a talk in my Lion’s club, twice. He was probably 16 and the first talk was awful. But they all knew that it was for the development and education of this kid.

Q. Right.

A. A year or two later, after this club sent him to a Lions camp and so forth and he gave another talk and he did a great job. 

Q. Wonderful.

A. So, any- most of the time if I thought I could maybe make a difference in a person’s life, I’d try to do it.

Q. Yeah. OK What one thing happens frequently when traveling that you like the least?

A. Overriding loud noises. 

Q. Ok.

A. Like a lawnmower in the spring and summer of the year. I don’t care how quiet the damn street is that I’m crossing, how untraveled it is, how many stop signs there are. I don’t like not being able to hear. 

Q. Right.

A. So that or a jackhammer one of the few times that I’ve really gone out of my way to ask for help was crossing main street downtown with no light, but I’ve done it 1,000s times without help. My philosophy is anytime anybody asked me if I need help I accept it. Don’t give a damn if I need to or not. First of all I believe we need to be needed. 

Q. yeah.

A. So you wouldn’t offer me help the help if you didn’t think I needed it. 

Q. Yeah.

A. So even if I don’t need it I accept it to make you feel good. 

Q. Yeah.

A. But Jackhammer is going on, busy street Main Street in this town. I couldn’t hear myself fart excuse me, 

Q. laugh.

A. I mean I was flat out deaf. Right? I go in the nearest store and I say to the clerk you know, there’s a lot of noise out here and I can’t cross the street without help. Could you get somebody to help me?  And they left their post to help me. 

Q. Alright.

A. So when you have to that’s the way you do it. Right as I speak half way between here and town I know the sidewalk is torn up. My wife, my daughter, or friends anybody drives a long there and see the big hole their working on a water line, gas line. Hopefully, somebody will tell me. Dad there’s this, Don there’s this at such a such place. So, if I do it at least I know where it is and I know to be extra careful. 

Q. Right.

A. You know I said if I do it.

Q. Would you take the other side of the street maybe? 

A. On this street it’s that way on both sides. 

Q. Oh.

A. I would probably have to trail around the roping or the fencing and walk in the street, you know unless I really had to walk to town today, I’m not going to do it. 

Q. Yeah. Yeah.

A. I’m not going to do it to by my lotto ticket I’ll tell you.

Q. Yeah. It is not that important.

Q. Do you all have any actuated intersections where you live? Where you walk?

A. Where you push a button?

Q. Well, there are those, but there’s also they put something in the street that makes it so there’s no real cycle anymore. The major street goes until there are some cars on the side streets and only then will it switch. So the cycle it doesn’t exist, it’s an unpredictable kind of light because of that.

A. Uh….there’s one intersection her in town that might be what you talking about  its real hard to cross. But, in the past year or so they put a button on a pole that I can push, and it stops everything at a certain point 

Q. I see.

A. and I better hustle on across there. 

Q. So you found that button and that’s.

A. Yeah. But see this is a relatively small town I maybe about 20,000 and in many small towns, the shopping centers, the malls have moved out away from town and I don’t go out there very much. My independence pretty much is from here to town and back. Where there are restaurants, 

Q. Yeah.

A. barber shops, drugstores, grocery store, hardware store and the stuff that I need and if I need something else I gotta get a ride one way on the other out to a mall. 

Q. Yeah.

A. That might be a bus, but it might also be in a family car. 

Q. Right.

A. Speaking of cars when my children were age 16 and 17,

Q. Uh huh.

A. I woke up one Sunday morning and realized that my name, I owned a motor home, a family car, each child’s car, and a motorcycle. Now you count that and that’s 5 different motorized vehicles that I owned and couldn’t drive any of them, 

Q. Laugh.

A. and I scratched my head and I said “ why you son of a bitch!”

Q. Laugh.

A. You can change tires on them and wash them and wax them, but you can’t drive any of them and once again how fortunate, how wonderful to have been in that situation. For the most part, I was the sole breadwinner but I was working at  two jobs, and my wife helped me a lot. 

Q. Yeah.

A. She read hundreds of thousands of pages during my university years, literally hundreds of thousands. She helped me do papers and back in those days it was just a great lot of help. 

Q. Yeah.

A. In more recent years she reads very, very little but maybe a little bit of the newspaper or this or that. Now I’m here alone. She’s letting are grandson off 40 miles from here and going on up to spend the rest of the day, tonight and tomorrow with Sharon. I'll be responsible for my lunch, and my supper, and breakfast and so on. 

Q. Neat.

A. I’m not worried it, the only thing’s different had I not been on the phone she would’ve told me. Well there’s such and such in the refrigerator or this shelf or that shelf but I’ll find it. 

Q. Yeah.

A. You know so I’m not worried about it.

Q.  Neat. What do you want sighted pedestrians to do when they want to help you.? What instructions would you give? 

A. What would I want them to do?

Q. Would you have any advice for..

A. Just ask me if I need help. As I’ve already told you I’ll say yes probably if I’m crossing the street. I’ll say yes whether I need it or not. Let me tell you how I learned that lesson. Most of what I‘ve learned from other people who were crossing a busy street in East St. Louis, Illinois. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. That’s kind of a rough area. And it was in the evening around 5 o’clock but there was a light. This fellow comes along and I was in my mid or upper 20’s and he asked me if I wanted him to help me cross the street and I said yes sir I would appreciate that. He helped me across the street and I turned left to go up to the bus stop, and I think he took a few steps to go forward and I got a few steps up towards the bus stop and he ran up and tapped me on the back and he said and I quote” you thank me? I should be thanking you and he was gone.” My mind sort of staggered a little bit what did he just say to me? 

Q. Right.

A. You thank me. I should be thanking you, so I get on the bus and pay my fare, this guy was telling me something, and what he was telling me is what I just told you a while ago. You gave me the opportunity to feel good about me and I thank you for it. Now, most people could not articulate that at all but this fellow did 

Q. Yeah.

A. and it taught me a great lesson.

Q. Neat. This is wonderful stuff. 

A, What’s that?

Q. This is wonderful stuff. Have you ever been injured travelling?

A. Yeah. You know if you knock around as a blink, there’s a couple of things going to happen.

Q. Yeah.

A. You’re going to make social error that you wouldn’t make if you could see and you’ve got to be able to laugh about it or overcome it and you’re probably going to get hurt, either from your own carelessness by dragging a cane behind you (laugh) 

Q. Uh hmm.

A. or just not doing things right. But probably the most I don’t even know where to start with this. Let me tell you this I have not come in physical contact with a car that was moving since I was in my teens. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. But in my teens, I had several of those kind of experiences. 

Q. Wow.

A. I was never ran over I was knocked down,

Q. Oh.

A.  but  I was I my teens I had not had your kind of help.

Q. Right.

A. One time I was being led across the street. But they had a hold of my arm instead of me their arm, and a car rolled over my foot. 

Q. Oh my.

A. My hand and arm hit the mirror and I stood there cussing up a storm, get this son of a bitch’s license plate cussing up a storm hopping up and down with my one good leg. And the lady was saying “sir it’s a Police car. 

Q. Oh (laugh).

A. He stopped, he stopped, sir it’s a police car”. I was 16 years old you know. Poor cop he rushed me to the doctor, there was nothing broken

Q. Good.

A. but I’d made a scene and a fool of myself you know so I had that as a teenager one time I was crossing the street and the light apparently turned yellow in the middle of the street, and a city bus passed me, this was in the summer time, there were no air conditioning back in those days and the bus windows were open and it knocked my cane out of my hand. That’s how close we were.  So as the open windows passed me and me standing there and everybody on the bus was screaming. So these screaming voices, zooming past my face, my cane going down the street, scared the piss out me. 

Q. I guess it did!

A. Somebody went and got my cane. I wasn’t hurt but I was so scared to death I thought you know you better learn some way to keep that from happening. Those are a couple of examples of early childhood stuff. But I was--

Q. Were you carrying a cattle pod at 16 or were you carrying an actual white cane at that point?

A. That still might have been the cattle pod, 

Q. Laugh.

A. I’m not sure, it probably was, it probably was. 

Q. Sure.

A. So I was pretty damn close to that bus. 

Q. Right.

A. In recent years, 15 to 20 years ago there’s a nursing home on the other side of the town its about 2 miles from here, that I originally was going there as part of my work. There was a deafblind lady there, an elderly deaf blind lady. 

Q. Uh hmm.

A. The main thing I did for her, she could see and hear both somewhat until she was 65 and lost it all. Had no relatives, about the most alone person you’ve ever heard of. 

Q. Wow.

A. The main thing I really did was get a group of volunteers to go in and visit her one each day for an hour or so and in setting this up I kinda said to myself “what is good for the goose is good for the gander.”  So if I’m asking you to give an hour every Monday, I ought to be willing to give an hour every Sunday.

Q. Yeah.

A. So about every Saturday or Sunday I would go see this old lady. Sometimes take her something to eat or whatever but mostly just to sign to her. So anyway one Sunday afternoon late, I’d gotten a ride over there and I really don’t remember with whom, but I was going to walk home. 

Q. uh hmm.

A. Not that I had to but we get old and fatter quicker if we don’t do a little exercise. 

Q. Sure.

A. Well I was gonna walk home and I had done many times, I had done it both ways many times but about two blocks from the nursing home the city had dug a out a place, the water company had dug out a six- and half-foot hole and did not have any kind of a barrier around it. 

Q. mmm.

A. Now that is blaming them, right? But and also telling the truth and some of the blame on me, I was aware of freshly smelled dirt. 

Q. Ahh.

A. You know that should have set off a warning, maybe a flowerbed but maybe not, 

Q. Right.

A. …maybe a hole. And I even became aware of a pile of dirt. 

Q. mmm.

A. I thought OK we got dirt across the sidewalk here. All I got to do is stop off the sidewalk. I’m fine and my cane, a long cane now alright, my cane locates this concrete block or some kind of a brick thing and ok no big deal just step over that and I did, six and half feet down.

Q. Oh gosh!. Aye, yie yie.

A. (laugh) you’ve heard that people when they a real shot of adrenaline, they get kind of a superman

Q. yes.

A. …energy and you hear stories about holes caving in on people that are working down in them and all. I had a vision of that. I flipped my cane up on the top and I really don’t know how I got the strength to lift myself straight up out of there.

Q. Mmm.

A. and I wasn’t as big then as I am now but it’s been a long time since I’ve weighed under 250 pounds and I hoisted myself out of there. Now sure I had a bunged up leg, my knee, my leg and all of that. My daughter… see I asked some people that saw that came running out the house and I was already on the ground out of there when I got there I said ……

(End of side 2 tape 2)

…Help. And my daughter got there before the police did. And she had three times as far to drive. 

Q. So you had a number where you could just hand out to somebody , go call this for me?

A. I just gave them my home number and she just said, “is this is Mrs. McBride?” and my daughter said “no, I’m his daughter”, well your father said to tell you that he’s alright but he’s had an accident and he needs help and he ‘s at such and such place. She drove I’m sure she ran any red lights that might have appeared and as I say she got there faster than the police did. She did take me, I think she took me to the hospital to make sure that I was probably going to live. (laugh)

Q. And were you OK?

A.  Yeah just, I mean I didn’t work for a few days but, yeah and now that’s the accident that occurred a) because I was blind and b) because I was careless. OH?, I should have felt on the other side of that brick before I stepped over .

Q. Cleared your step. Yep.

A. Right , and see that is one of the problems. Those that brag about how we’re as good as many and better than most, we get overconfident and we don’t do what we know to do and maybe that is a failing of humankind

Q. That’s human.

A. in general, maybe we don’t do nearly as much as we know. 

Q. Well you know what for example yesterday I was in a live track, subway track training and its four new employees who are going to work in the subway lines where trains are passing and you need how to be safe. They said that the two groups of people who are at highest risk and have the highest rate of death are the new employees and people who have worked there over 24 years. They guessed that it was because they just became a little too relaxed in their safety.

A. Just exactly, I’ve been from here to town as I told you, thousand of times and if I didn’t know, if someone hadn’t have kindly thought, I‘ve got to tell Don about that. I’ve had people ring me up on the phone and say hey McBride, you know there’s a hole at such and such place. 

Q. That’s great.

A. If I didn’t know that I could very easily walk  like I got a million dollars and a million hours to spend it and that means sure I’m walking slow enough but I might be dragging my cane behind me preoccupied with something else, not often, but I might be. 

Q. Uh huh.

A. And walk off just into a damn hole.

Q. Now why do you have the cane behind you, just because you’re not thinking?

A.  Oh I don’t do that pretty often (laugh), I can’t tell even you why

Q. Uh huh.

A. I do this but I’m guessing that maybe I had one hand in my pocket, counting my money or I don’t even know why. I mighta had my billfold out or I might have my cane tucked under my arm. 

Q. Right.

A. A more reasonable brighter person would stop while they do that (laugh)

Q. Right (laugh).

A.  I’ve never once said that I was all that reasonable a guy and I ‘d like to think that I don’t pull that off very often.

Q. Laugh - Well you’re pretty comfortable with, I guess, that route too I mean you walk everyday.

A. Yeah. And as you’ve said somebody who’s been doing it a long time. 

Q. Yeah.

A. It’s a person that is going to have a problem or might have or the person who hasn’t done it at all, the new person or the person that’s done a lot.

Q. Do you belong to any professional or consumer organizations, I know you mentioned Lion’s Club? 

A. I just belong to the Mid American Conference of Rehab Teachers, MACRT and I used to belong to group 11.

Q. AER?

A. AER.

Q. Uh huh.

A., and I belong to ACB, I don’t know whether that’s a professional group but it’s a consumer group.

Q. Uh huh.

A. I used to be a lot more active than I am now. I’ve been a member of the Lion’s club for 30 years, I was the president of that club in 1990. Tell you once again that is not a professional club. It has benefited me a lot in that by being one of them I could get help for the blind people that needed help more easily.

Q. Yeah.

A. It’s been a learning experience in other ways and of course I’d like to think my year as president was probably the most meaningful year to that club, since I’ve been in it we took the women in our club at that time. 

Q. Oh.

A. You know the law had said we have to all over the US but this good old red neck community said, “no we’re not going to do that”. 

Q. Laugh.

A. Well I pushed for it and I got it done, now I made some enemies. 

Q. Wow.

A. There are some old red neck guys that wish that I was dead—

Q. Oh my.

A. still but I’m not, and there’s 10 or 12 women that are members, we’ve even had a president now that was a woman, can you believe that? 

Q. I love it.

A. You know. So that is one of, at least I think of it as, one of my major victories as a Lion. I’ve got various clubs to help lots of different blind folks. I can say fellow lions, Mrs. Smith needs such and such and the state will not do it for her. Got the idea?

Q.  Yes. That’s a wonderful organization, that Lion’s Club.

A. Yeah. Most ways you can figure out a way to get the government to pay the bill but oh I remember one time there was this retired railroad guy that became totally blind, and he wanted a CB

Q. Ah.

A. well hell I couldn’t justify that. You know, so I got the local lions club to buy it for him. 

Q. Wonderful.

A. This fellow is home a lot and he does get out and walk a little bit and he does do this and that, he listens to the talking book a lot but you know this was bring somewhat, this would bring the world into him. 

Q. Yeah.

A. That’s how I got into amateur radio, you know being a ham?

Q. Yeah.

A. I realized about 10 years ago that I was going to get old believe or not. I might need a way to bring a way the world into me instead of me going out to the world that much-

Q. Interesting.

A. and I wanted to see if I could still learn a new skill. See if I had the ability to learn yet. The kids were gone through school, on jobs. So I took it up to see if I could pass all the necessary tests and it has been a god send to me. Every morning I’m on the air at least an hour, now listen to this (sound) you don’t hear that? 

Q. Uh hmm

A. Well that was a mechanism called a repeater that identified itself. By me pressing a button on the mike, it told me that I’m on the frequency for that repeater, I know where it is and I know about how far that particular one will reach.

Q. interesting.

A. So it has been a wonderful recreational activity for me but now when I was a young man, why the in the hell didn’t he do that 30 years ago or 40 years ago? Hell, I was riding bikes and swimming and fishing. 

Q. Yeah. Raising a family.

A. That little girl and I, we caught a great lot of fish..  more fish than you can imagine, a great lot of fun.

Q. How did ADA impact you? Did you notice the difference before and after the law was passed?

A. Impact me personally? Very little.

Q. Uh huh.

A. Very little. (laugh) Me personally? 

Q. Yeah.

A. There might be braille on a few more elevators, but I’ve been in lots of hotels that did not have braille on doors or did not have braille on elevators.

Q. Uh hmm.

A. I have gotten off on floors and felt for raised print to find out what damn floor I was on, I wasn’t  worried about finding my room yet, I just wanted to know what floor I was on. 

Q. Very important.

A. You know? So. Once again there’s usually ways around those kinda things and of course when braille was available or raised print on the elevator well I used it. 

Q. Yeah.

A. Once again if I get on an elevator and I know you’re on it oh can you hear that? 

Q. Yes.

A. I had that turned up enough and that was a Morse code there and it was saying this is KE9. KE and so on. Anyway back to the elevator. If I know you’re on there I might ask you if you’ll punch 4 

Q. Uh hmm.

A. and the likelihood is you will. You know I told you that great lesson that that little 10-year-old taught me? 

Q. Yeah.

A. I have a deaf sister who goddamn 7 kids, 3 blind and 1 deaf.

Q. Yeah.

A. The deaf one became blind from meningitis at the age of 16. 

Q. Oh my.

A. Once again she’s quite a bit older than I, she’s now 73 so she’s 10 years older than I. She has speech you know she was 16 when she became deaf so she has pretty good speech but she also knows sign language real well. The most outstanding human being that ever walked the face of the earth had 5 children as a totally deaf person, adopted one, and has worked in the public. As I say she’s a superman, right? 

Q. Yeah.

A. Well as a child, young man she lived 25 miles from the University of Oklahoma, she lived in Oklahoma City and I would go to her house sometimes on weekends. She did not finish high school, I really don’t know how far 10th, 11th grade. I enrolled down there she was really for it she would pushing me all the way and I flunked my first English theme. Now here’s a cocky bastard that never flunked anything in his life, nothing and I made an F, an honest to god F on a theme. 

Q. Huh.

A. so I went to her house that weekend and showed her this F.  Almost in tears, and I said you know sis this probably is not for me after all we’re hill folk and maybe I’m a fish out of water here. And oh she lectured me she turned me every way but loose. 

Q. Hmm.

A. You’re going to let one F alter your life? You get back down there and you get to work, well I flunked theme number 2. Crawled back to her place the next weekend, probably really did cry.

Q. Yeah.

A. I said just look at this. Once again she just raised hell. She said, now listen, you have the money, you’re tuning pianos, you get down there and find you an English major that’ll teach you where to put a comma and a colon, 

Q. Yeah.

A. …how to write. You hire him. It made sense to me. Now after flunking the first two themes. I drew a B out of that course. 

Q. You hired somebody?

A. Yeah…oh hell yes. 

Q. Yeah.

A. I can still you that guy’s name ( laugh) he did not cheat, or I did not cheat. He did not write a theme for me he just taught me how. 

Q. Yes.

A. But that sister--

Q. Because what you were missing was the grammar?

A. Grammar part of it. Apparently I didn’t know that if you used an adverbial phrase of when such and such occurs where you put a comma.

Q. Right, so now, would you type your themes and then he would instruct you?

A. Ya. Ya. Ya. Typing on a regular…..by the way that teacher, that deaf lady, that sister taught me how to type when I was about 11 or 12 years  old.

Q. mmm.

A. I told you my father died when I was a child, 

Q. yeah.

A. …well these adult brothers and sisters 4 of them were pretty much adults

Q. yeah.

A. chipped in a lot so far as helping me, educating me. I never thought then, I never though of myself as being an orphan. I almost was because after my father died and my mother being through the awesome life she had been through, 7 children, 3 becoming blind, 1 deaf. She was born and raised, she was born in a dugout in western Oklahoma. By the time I came along she had very little left in terms of emotional support or economic support. So during the summer times I had to go someplace and these adult sisters would take me in their homes.

Q. Yeah.

A. Now I got to wondering in my adult life you know did they did have a pow-wow; did they sit down and talk about this? You know did my mother pay them? Well the answer to the last question was no and I don’t think there were too much consulting. The pow-wow and the consulting were the same thing. There wasn’t a lot of that, it just well Donnie can come to my house after school in June or the last of May. We’ll take care of him, we’ll pick him up, we’ll meet the bus etc. etc. 

Q. Yeah.

A. As a little child I never gave it much thought you know but as an adult somewhere along the way I was able to realize what, you know I was at this deaf sister’s house 2 summers and she taught me some sign language and she taught me to type. She had 3 babies in diapers, what a miraculous woman! 

Q. Is that where you learned sign language? 

A. From her. 

Q. Yeah.

A. And I’m not really that good at it but it’s like almost everything else if you use it you lose it.

Q. Yeah - That’s what happens with me with braille. 

A. Once I was in a group of deaf people, and my attempt was to introduce my wife. And the sign for wife and hamburger are similar.

Q. Laugh.

A. And you make one little slip and you’ve made the wrong sign. I was wanting to emphasize, “its gives me pleasure for you to meet my wife”.  And the sign for wife is the fist double up and the thumb up across underneath the chin to indicate a bonnet, you know.

Q. Yeah.

A. …that’s woman, and then you clasp your hands and that’s wife, that’s Married. Now you clasp your hands and turn it over and clasp it again that’s hamburger. (laugh)

Q. A female hamburger at that.

A. Yeah. And these deaf people just went crazy. They laughed and jeered and teased me for the rest of that meal. You know. (laugh). So I learned just enough to make some amusing errors along the way.

Q. (laugh) Well there are a lot more you can make with sign language from what I understand.

A. oh yeah……now you were asking me something else maybe?

Q. Well that’s all the questions that I have today, I was just wondering if you might want me to send you a copy either of the tape or of the print when I finish transcribing this? 

A. I don’t know. I hope this has been of some help.

Q. oh it’s been great.

A. for getting a degree or what.

Q. I want to write a book.

A. OK well when you get the book written, I’d like to buy a copy. Alvin Roberts, I’m sure he told you he’s written some books.

Q. Yup yup.

A. Well I’m in one of his books. OK? I also bought it. So I would be glad to buy it. We have published by we I mean my wife and I, a couple of articles along the way one when into what used to be called the The New Outlook.

Q. New Outlook For The Blind?

A. Yeah the name has changed. It’s a publication of AER what’s it called?

Q. Its called JVIB?

A. I believe that’s it. But this article was called the name of it was “The Field Approach to Rehab Teaching.”  I’m pretty sure that was the title of it.  It would be around 1976, either side of that year, I gave a presentation on the essence of that at an AAWB American Association of Workers for the Blind meeting in Atlanta I think in 75. But once again I’m not really sure about the year. I have often thought I would write something just for the fun of it, my wife and I ought to but I haven’t done it yet. The story that Alvin, if you get a copy of his most recent book, I’m trying to remember the name of it. Something about rehab teaching. I don’t remember the name of it but it really gives a lot of information to the lay public, but it also in my opinion every would be rehab teacher and every O & M teacher should read the book.

Q. Oh well definitely have to get a copy of that.

A. But the only criticism I have of the book, of this that, it’s outdated. It goes back  to his younger life,  my younger life. We’re teaching people how to use the talking book or how to read and write braille or line guide equipment. In this day and time you’re teaching people how to use computers but that wasn’t done, that wasn’t done very much even before 10 years ago. You understand what I’m saying?

Q. Yeah, yeah.

A. But anyway the story that he tells East St. Louis is a rough area. I don’t know whether you know enough about geography and that kind of stuff to know about that.  But for years my office was located there. I traveled and went around back then to 10 or 11 counties either by bus or car. But anyway in days I was in the office it behooved one to get out of town by 5 o’clock. So, the bus was about a block from where my office was and this one day in December, I’d gotten a phone call about a blind guy that I knew that needed insulin, and didn’t have the means, the economic or otherwise to get it. And this phone call all came in just before 5. So I called the pharmacist, I called the salvation army, and by the time I got all this arranged it was 5.45. East St. Louis empties out at 5 o’clock.

Q. Right.

A. so I’m walking down the street towards the bus stop. Wintertime, briefcase in left hand, cane in the right hand. And a voice in my left year says quote, “I’m not going to hurt you but I need some money. ““I’m not going to hurt you but I need some money. “ My paranoid brain thought he said, “this is a stickup, I’m gonna kill ya”. Ok? I dropped my cane and swung as hard as I could swing with my right hand and was lucky enough to get him square in the mouth and decked him, cut up my hand and I began to yell for help. 

Q. Oh wow.

A. And he jumped up, as people came around the corner from the bus stop, he jumped up and ran. The police came, wanted to know what he looked like, 

Q. laugh. I said don’t you know I’m a blind guy, can’t tell you that.

A. These people said it was about a 17- or 18-year-old black guy. Now my hand is bleeding, I go on to the bus stop. I had a total of enough money to get me to my destination, 80 cents was what I had. All that really proved is I am crazy, but I got on the bus, I paid my fare and I realized that he said, ”I’m not going to hurt to you, but I need some money.” That maybe it was not a hold up, that maybe he was just a beggar, still I will never know. 

Q. Right.

A. But that did teach me an important lesson about me that probably I was not aware of. That is that my make-up, my nervous system, my being is such that I react in that sort of way so don’t be playing a trick on me unless you’re going to run. 

Q. Right.

A. The only way I wouldn’t fight and that‘s if I was with you, I might say well they may kill us both. But if I’m here alone that’s not the way it is. So, that’s what his story in there is about me and I think he uses my name. 

Q. Wild.

A. But there are a lot of good stories in there, mine is not the best story, I might say. Every O&M or rehab teacher ought to read it because I suspect every story is close enough to the truth that it is the truth. All the way from him sitting by a casket and didn’t know it. 

Q. Oh wow.

A. Yeah, it’s a great little book. It gives an idea what a rehab teacher goes through. 

Q. What I ask everyone, when I interview them is they if they might have some people or some person or anyone that they would feel comfortable recommending, give me a name and number or if you might call them and ask permission. That I might continue my oral histories with other people. I’m looking for people who have worked, are working, who have a visual impairment, blind , low vision I’m just looking to get all these varied experiences so just wondering if you’d be able to help me in that area?

A. Well there’s a lot of people that I know. It kinda depends on if you want somebody like my friend, Jack Gibson, the RP guy, I’m sure that Jack doesn’t consider himself in the blind community as I do. I consider myself in both.

I consider myself in the sighted world and the blind and I consider myself as comfortable in either one. But Jack is a guy that doesn’t carry a cane, I am a guy that wouldn’t go anywhere, I even want a cane to go my grave (laugh) you know I mean it is a part of me. So you really get a different view of it all. Jack even knew me when he could see good. I could give you some of my family I could give you.

Q. do you have his number? I’ll take him whoever you want to give me, I’ll take them all and call them.

A. Ok he goes by Jack Gibson G – I – B – S – O - N . his real name is Rosco. Well Jack lived in a real small town way up in the Boon docks close to the Illinois River, I mean if he could see, he could see it from where he lived. Tremendously talented with music, never had a lesson but he played professionally and has all his life, when he could see and still, still does. He ca fix motors, and is an amiable wonderful, wonderful guy. 653-4246.

Q. Is that the same area code as you?

A. 618 I’ll call him and tell him that you might call him.

Q.  Neat.

A. I could give you some more names of a rehab teacher, a real bright rehab teacher friend that’s been. Jack’s number is 618- 653-4246; I just looked it up in Braille, so I’m sure that’ it. I could give you a number of a fellow that is a genius, totally blind since birth. That worked as a rehab teacher for 20 some odd years, that had at least a bachelors maybe a masters and his name is Michael Garrett G – A – R – R – E – T - T , and he lives in Champagne, Illinois and that area code is 217-351-2045. Now I’ll call him and tell him but he might or might not want to do this but, in some manner one of my personality traits has been and is, that I seem to seek out people that are in someway better than I am or smarter than I am or more capable than I am and kind of serve. I’m somewhat of a leach I get what I can from some of these people. Mike is an advanced license Ham. He does code tremendously beautiful, he can work on electrical wiring, he climbs his ham tower, he solders, I have soldered a little bit but nothing like Mike does. OK the next thing I’m going to tell about Mike is just absolutely confidential unless he tells you then you and do whatever you want. Few year’s back, we’re talking about 4, 5, 6, year’s ago, he went on disability, he called it clinical depression. I have always thought if he’s crazy or clinically depressed so are the rest of us. You know but maybe if you tell him how long you’ve been and worked for the blind and you’re a student there’s this much about this kind of work. You see people hurting everyday, you see people that can’t read, can’t write, can’t move about, that have a lot of emotional stress because of it and I do rather suspect it takes a toll on us after a while. We can’t bring sight back. We’re not ophthalmologists and not even all ophthalmologists can all the time. So in my own experience there were in 35 years, there were a few times 8 to 10 that I would get home and usually before I got in the house I’d stand out in the porch and weep, cry, about a client. There were twice that I got out of their house into a car and just broke up. Once I had to tell my driver, lets go park, I got to get a hold of myself. So it’s a very serious kind of work and some of us take it very seriously , we hear what people are saying , we feel what people are saying and sometimes we’re not satisfied that we’re doing as much as either we should as we could etc. etc. So I can imagine that coupled with the pressures of the state of your employer to get the number to get these people rehabilitated, move on to the next person. I can well imagine that would cause one to be clinically depressed. Ok? That’s it about Michael, just keep it under your hat unless he brings it up. You know but all I’m telling you is  I can understand how it could happen.

Q. There’s no real predicting that depression, it’s hard to believe sometimes who and why.

A. In this work for a long time you’ll see everything you can imagine all the way from spouses ditching a blind person to the abuse of the older person by children, there’s just every twist of life that exists, deaf blind people. This elderly deafblind lady, I eluded to you an hour ago I just had a tremendous feeling for her. We had her to our home many thanksgivings many Christmases and other times and our children might have resented this I don’t know  really if they did or not but I didn’t ask them if I could or not my wife and I just did it. And there’s all kind of stories we could share about it. One time we had this big wiemareiner dog, a pet that was a pretty  wild dog except around her and he was as gentle as a kitten. Now I don’t know if it was the deaf blindness or if it was age or if was all 3 of those things. But that dog was never allowed on the furniture but he knew that she was here, he could crawl up on the couch and lay his head on her lap and no one would say a word (laugh). Anyway in summary I’ll be very fortunate to have been able to make a great trip and the culture I live in, has helped me make it.

Q. Well thank you  for everything for all of this time that you’ve spent with me and for the two names.

A. If you want the name of a person that’s been totally blind 5 years I could give it to you that too.

Q. wonderful

A. Ellie Knight. Ellie is in her mid-late 50’s she’ll tell you exactly and I say she’s been blind 5 years it might be 4. But she’s total and it came about suddenly. Her number is 618-797-0105. She lives with a wonderful husband Bob and I’ll just let her tell you the rest of the story. If you get her at the right time she’ll talk your leg off  as much as I have.

Q. Wonderful.

A. Well this has been really enlightening. I will let you know.

Q.  She was one of my clients in the later years and she might or might not give me a little more credit than I’m due but she might even admit that it was a more of an inspirational thing. It’s seeing annoying that this guy bowls, and by the way she bowls with us now but she didn’t in the first year or two. What I did was this little group of blind people that bowled, is sometimes use it as a first time out as a blind person. First time out meaning, being getting used to feeling watched or looked which everybody feels it first, learning to put up with noises, lots of noises, learning to get around in a strange place outside your house. Oh my god everybody’s watching. Associating with a few other blind people that seem to take in stride. I’ve used just a little group that way several times throughout the years and they know that they are part of the therapy. But its not called that. We’re just sitting around shooting the breeze, we bowl and we make fun of one another and all that stuff. Hey can I help you anymore, if you really do write this book I’m not kidding you, you just send me the book and the bill.

Q. Where do I send that to?

A. 1504 Randale, Edwardsville, Illinois 62025. And you have my daughter’s number and my son’s number. And that whole business of children and parents are handicapped and a blind parent, that’s just about a book in and of itself.

Q. I believe it.

A. I guess the bottom line is however inept I was a parent both kids have reasonably good jobs. Both kids went on to school beyond high school and they’re doing reasonably well in life. So I wouldn’t say that my wife and I did too awful bad a job. No question about it but especially the first 20 some odd years that she played a major role in every success that I had. I told you when my worst 5 years when I was blind to 10 or 11. My best five and I expected you to ask me were 1959 10 1964, 5 years there I got married in 59’, first child came in 62’, no 61’ I think, next child came in 62’, I bachelor degree in 63’, a professional job in –

 (end side two tape two)

  In every accomplishment – the O&M instructor in me wishes more value had been placed on his safety.  His life is filled with accomplishments and yet- all I can hear is just how freakin’ hard it has been to get around safely and he blames himself – not the inferior tools he’s been provided… He taught O&M too – learn more about that in Part II.

Don McBride

Recorded 8/28/99

transcription completed 1/27/00